In truly scientific systems, there are no inner and outer circles. But the Korean language is generally considered the most secretly-guarded code system among the world’s major languages. There is no way an “outsider,” who is not born into this circle, can crack the code of the Korean language, no matter how long one devotes oneself to its mastery. Its grammar and syntax are capable of so much situational variation and impromptu adaptation that only the native can get the feel of the language. Anyone who is encouraged by the scientific claim and tries to learn the language soon finds that he is merely scratching the surface after years of devoted study.
If Korea is serious about its ambition to be an advanced nation characterized and united by a middle-class medium of communication, it must seriously consider developing a national language that would be functional, rational, and democratic for the middle masses of Korea. As Korea’s middle-class expands, it will be imperative that its communicative system be something that all middle-level Koreans can understand and use, in writing and speech. As it stands, Korean society is divided between two languages that are almost as impossible to bridge as the two languages in China.
Korea is already a rigidly divided society: Some go to college and work for companies and some don’t go to college and work as laborers. The new government seems to be determined to narrow the economic gap between the two classes. But it would behoove Koreans to seriously consider the language divide as well.
I’m not going to ridicule it. I’ll just let it stand as is.
OK, I’ll make one comment. It’s true that Korea does have a language issue that separates social classes, one so bad that it has become one of the most contentious issues in Korean education. It may even serve as a barrier to unification — North Korean defectors complain about it all the time. That language issue, Jon, is English.
{ 65 comments… read them below or add one }
Jon is an idiot and water is wet.
I’m just glad he got his dEgReE from fUCLA…
Isn’t it odd how Jon Huer sounds just like Mizar?
Jon Huer has gone full retard.
Who is the bigger idiot: Jon Huer or the managing editor at the Korea Times for printing this crap?
Jon’s next article is to advocate all Koreans learning Esperanto.
Wow! Just Wow!
“Jon Huer has gone full retard.”
I would love to see Koreans plagiarize, oops, develop a new language.
“Its grammar and syntax are capable of so much situational variation and impromptu adaptation that only the native can get the feel of the language.”
Right, because context, figures of speech, deference, and register are all unique to Korean.
I guess nobody told him that the Contrastive Analysis Hypothesis was essentially debunked in the 1970′s.
Looks like Huer is frustrated with his inability to master Korean – so he advocates that the country change its language – to something he can handle.
inner and outer circles?
secretly-guarded code system?
This guy doesn’t know a thing about Korea – he should really just keep his mouth shut.
#4: Hey Jon, how’s it going?
“I’m not going to ridicule it. I’ll just let it stand as is.”
that’s just ingenuous Robert. “letting it stand as is” is ridicule.
Hey NK, you finally have an example of an American who no doubt couldn’t have hacked a job commensurate with his degree back in the states and who is probably only employable in Korea… an example that we would probably all agree on.
How can he talk about the inner and outer circles without mentioning the secret handshake?
“There is no way an “outsider,” who is not born into this circle, can crack the code of the Korean language, no matter how long one devotes oneself to its mastery. Its grammar and syntax are capable of so much situational variation and impromptu adaptation that only the native can get the feel of the language. Anyone who is encouraged by the scientific claim and tries to learn the language soon finds that he is merely scratching the surface after years of devoted study.”
I guess he hasn’t seen Jim Hubbard on TV then.
It should be “he” and “himself,” not “one” and “oneself.” And, the part about the native is wrong, too. The word “native” is not the same as “native speaker,” which is what he means.
I know I’m on dangerous ground here, calling out someone’s grammar and word choice on the Internet, but if I’m right about his mistakes, I may have cracked the code of his inability to learn Korean. He’s just not good at languages. Or, I may have just made myself look dumb.
So, to sum it up then – “I can’t learn Korean, therefore it must be impossible.” How much more egocentric could you get?
The Korean language wasn’t always the “pride of the people” that it is today. In fact, that’s a development that occurred within the last century as Koreans fought a cultural war against colonial Japan. Hangeul were the letters of the lower class; for people who couldn’t read hanja like the well-educated. It was only when Koreans, under threat of cultural destruction, grasped at anything natively Korean to foster a nationalist spirit in the face of an external threat.
Regarding written and spoken languages as different – Show me a language that doesn’t have that feature. And arguing professional lingo as unique to Korean? Is he implying that we don’t have a need for medical dictionaries in English?
I want to know what the sign is that he came across in the forest. I’m guessing it might have been 出入禁止 [출입금지] or something similar. I wish he’d actually show the sign and not just say, “This one time this thing happened. Trust me.” My in-laws are by no means a part of the “upper-echelon”, but they do fine reading hanja.
As I once remarked about learning Japanese – “The bottom line is that if you go into the game expecting to lose, you’ve already lost. If you think Japanese is an impossible hurdle to overcome, it’s going to stay that way for you (and you alone).”
It’s obvious Jon has never studied Japanese. I consider it much more “secretive” than Korean. It has more verb conjugations that Korean simply doesn’t have, not to mention that its writing system itself is a barrier to learning the language in-depth.
By the way, KrZ, that would be “Ricetard”. Korea invented the term, I only use it.
Seems he hit you where it hurt, NK.
#14,
I guess he hasn’t seen Robert Holley or Prof. Vladimir Tikhonov (Pak No-ja) on TV, either.
“Its grammar and syntax are capable of so much situational variation and impromptu adaptation that only the native can get the feel of the language.”
I’ve seen Gary Rector speaking in Korean a few times, and he seemed to have as strong a grasp – if not stronger – of the language than many Koreans might. (Mind you, he has been a Korean citizen for a while, though not of the “native” variety.) Though Korean might be tougher than many languages to master, attaining a native-like level of fluency, accuracy, accent, etc. in any language one begins learning in adulthood, is seldom easy.
“As it stands, Korean society is divided between two languages that are almost as impossible to bridge as the two languages in China.”
I’m assuming Huer is referring to Mandarin and Cantonese, while ignoring China’s numerous other languages, that aside from their written form, are sometimes as mutually unintelligible as Spanish and Basque.
All around, another classic piece of poop from JH. Surprise, surprise…
@17: Purely anecdotal evidence…but there are a fair number of westerners who can speak Japanese well ~ but very few who can speak Korean well. In part, I’m sure this is just a matter of there being far more westerners who have endeavored to learn Japanese.
I’ve studied both languages extensively. I can’t really say one is overall more difficult than the other for a native speaker of English to learn. I would say mastering a clear Korean accent is more difficult than a Japanese accent; and closely related to that – I think Japanese is easier to pronounce. Factoring in the kanji (and all the various multiple pronunciations) – obviously makes Japanese a more difficult language to learn to read and write.
Tough call.
@4 I stopped writing for the Korea Times because – among many other things – I simply got sick of my own articles and picture being under his on page 4 every Saturday!
On the other hand, perhaps a parallel with going out with ugly friends when you’re looking to score applied?
Under Huer’s comments section is this comment:
“johnhuer Del (76.121.168.60) 07-21-2009 14:03
No one can understand except some Koreans. This article is written by a PhD from UCLA. That means you must trust the author who is an obvious expert. ”
Grand Narrative – is that actually Huer’s strange comment – or someone playing a joke?
I’d wager the latter. Which is not to say that both Jon Huer and the comments sections of the Korea Times don’t operate in some warped, insane parallel universe though, with only tenuous links to our own…
A Ph.D does not an expert make.
Neither does ethnicity. In fact, when it comes to things Korean, there is often an inverse relationship, right, NK?
I remember that when we went thru Peace Corps Training we had a State Department guy come to Vermont and give us a briefing. He said that Korean was a Cat 4 language and considered one of the most difficult to learn, a 77 week course for State and a 88 week course for DOD.
Now, I don’t feel so bad for speaking Korean so poorly!!!!
We only had three months.
Mizar..
DId you happen to see FT Gideon Rachman and his NOT new idea of a standing UN army?
http://www.realclearworld.com
Richard, not sure what that’s about (will check it out) but, seeing as you were a Peace Corps volunteer, you earn my respect (now that’s not fair!)
It’s pretty obvious that Jon, with the exception of some English/Hawaiian derived surfing slang/language, is functionally monolingual.
Guitard @21,
FYI, the best Western speaker of Korean in Korea today is Prof. John Frankl of Yonsei University, hands down. He keeps a low profile, but seek him out if you have a chance. The guy is brilliant, insightful, and definitely worth spending a couple of hours with over dinner and drinks.
DLB
DLBarch,
There are many Westerners who are very good speakers of Korean who aren’t interested in playing the clown for the cameras.
Yup, agreed.
It’s precisely the tendency of Koreans to go for lowbrow entertainment shows like “Misuda” and, before that, all those ludicrous foreigner song contests that fetishize Westerners who can kinda, sorta speak the language that keeps the better speakers out of the limelight.
DLB
The fact is foreigners are in fact disparaged from learing to speak Korean well. Koteans are much more comfortable when they struggle with the language, as they see it as cute or nontheatening. I have heard say that “when foreigners speak Korean really well, it’s chingurupda.”
Likely, the fear is that, on one hand, real, 2-way communication will ensue, which may undermine a status quo built upon half-truths about the outside world, and, on the other hand, that foreigners will gain real insight into Korea warts and all.
Because the bottom line is that Koreans are an insecure, cowardly little people who need to feel “special”, and, believe me, they are viewed as “special” by most foreigners, as in “special needs children”.
However, some manage to see through this self-imposed mediocrity. Bless them, they are the ones I admire.
Hamel is a foreigner. He’s the daddy among foreign Korean speakers.
#33,
I cannot tell you how many times I heard (and was displeased) that adjective applied to my Korean ability – why does it make Koreans squeamish to hear foreigners speak their language well?
The word for it in Korean is “fixed notion” which translates as prejudice.
“Likely, the fear is that, on one hand, real, 2-way communication will ensue, which may undermine a status quo built upon half-truths about the outside world, and, on the other hand, that foreigners will gain real insight into Korea warts and all.”
I blame demagoguery for that.
OK time to voice the obvious. By obvious, I mean of course, the thing that is immediately obvious to almost all foreigners who come in contact with Koreans but is somehow invisible to Koreans themselves.
That is to say, Koreans live in a fictional universe. They believe that simply asserting something that one wishes were really so magically makes it so in the mental universe. Thus, if they assert that Seoul is the most beautiful city in the world, or that Koreans are the smartest people in the world, poof! it is magically so!
They can also make such magical assertions about other nations as well. Thus, Englishmen are gentlemen, Americans are racists, etc. and poof! it is magically so! Right, wjk and NK?
The only problem is that they cannot fathom that the nodding foreigners are just humoring them. They immediately sense how fragile and childlike the Korean ego is, and they are reluctant to be the ones to shatter their delusions. So they engable the delusions by parroting the overwhelmingly positive things that they are expected to say to Koreans and then they go off and roll their eyes over their astounding gullibility.
They know that there is nothing sweeter to a Korean’s ears than “foreigners like it!”
Someone asked me the following once: “I’ve heard that foreigners like Korean people but just don’t really like the land, right?” Sadly, I had to tell her that it just the opposite was true, that foreigners are attracted to the beauty of the mountains, the ancient architecture, the culture of the past but are generally put off by the people.
Mind you, this can all change in the blink of an eye. When Buddhists say that all is illusion, they were speaking precisely about this sort of delusional universe. Buddhists say that all it takes to see the light is to pull your head out of your own ass. Well, not in those exact words…
“They believe that simply asserting something that one wishes were really so magically makes it so in the mental universe.”
Fascinating. I knew they all had black hair and brown eyes, but I didn’t know they shared a hivemind too. Thanks for the cultural protip.
DL Barch (#30),
John Frankl really does seem to keep a low profile, almost too low, which makes me wonder why. I do not know him personally, but I have met him and have heard a lot about him and was impressed with what I heard. I remember his working on his Master’s in Korean Literature at Yonsei in the 1990s and then going on to Harvard for his Ph.D. He was supposed to be not only intelligent, but also really good in martial arts. I am surprised that he has not been the focus of some Korean TV program.
Is he now teaching Korean Literature at Yonsei to Koreans in Korean or is he teaching it to foreign students? If he is teaching Korean literature to Koreans in Korean, then I would really be impressed.
Did you talk about Korean Literature, Martial Arts, or something else? What are his passions? Has he written any books or tis hinking about writing any? What did he say or do to make you think he was brilliant? I am not questioning your judgment; I am just curious.
If I had the opportunity to sit down and talk for two hours with anyone in Korea, it would be John Frankl.
The following video clip shows John speaking a little Korean. It is hard to judge the extent of his Korean language skills based only on the video, but he seems quite comfortable with the language.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktP8YT-OrGU
“I knew they all had black hair and brown eyes.”
I know some who don’t.
Is Mizar doing his Jon Huer impersonation again?
Here’s Jon Frankl:
Jon Frankl
SomeguyinKorea beat me to the punch again. Your stooge cheque is in the mail.
John is Associate Professot of East Asian Literature @ Underwood Int’l College of Yonsei Univ., where he also chairs the Common Curriculum Program. In the game of musical chairs that is Korean Univ. administration, he’s also been associate Dean of UIC.
Given his placement at UIC, most of his students are foreigners, but include a large percentage of ethnic Koreans, and the courses are taught in a combination of English and Korean, but mostl Korean. He teaches courses in Korean literature and Korean Studies.
Among other writing and translation work, he was the English-language translator for “Maehwa,” a collection of essays on plum blossoms that was selected for 100 Korean books at Frankfurt Book Fair in October. The book deals with the cultural symbolism of the fruit in China, Japan and Korea, which use plums as a metaphor in religion, literature and art. He also won Second James Scarth Gale Translation Prize of the Centre for the Study of Korea at the University of Toronto , for his translation of Yi Sang’s “Lingering Impressions of a Mountain Village.” The translation is available on the CSK’s Web site: http://www.utoronto.ca/csk/prize.html.
Obviously, one of his passions is Gracie Ju Jitsu, which he introduced to Korea and had undertaken to defend from the depredations of some local imposters by actually publicly challenging one to the equivalent of a duel: http://www.bjj-asia.com/2009/02/john-frankl-publicly-challenges-mickey.html and http://murasakibjj.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/john-frankl-vs-mickey-choi/.
Having fun playing with an empty sock?
Thanks a lot, FD (#44). Very interesting interview.
I think that John Frankl video clearly proves wrong the following Jon Huer claim:
John Frankl is not only the best Korean-speaking foreigner I have ever heard, he speaks as well as any of the Korean students at my university.
gbevers,
I forgot: do you speak Korean? This guy is amazing. But to claim he speaks as well as any of your Korean students is a big, big stretch. His pronunciation is very American.
My money is on this very old ajosshi, who is a German guy who is also a Korean professor. His pronunciation — though extremely ajosshi — is more spot-on thank Frankl, who still carries a heavy American accent. I was just listening to this video a while back in the background, and I thought this guy was Korean.
http://www.zenkimchi.com/FoodJournal/?p=1338
It’s too bad Mickey is as obvious a coward as he is a fraud and liar. I would have paid money to see Frankl take him out 3 fights to 0.
“It should be “he” and “himself,” not “one” and “oneself.”
Nope seems fine to me, although not used so much thesedays, still a favourite of Queenie.
“I know some who don’t.”
Me too, I am looking at one right now, and there are many more who dye their hair if it differs from too much from cultural expectation.
#21 Grammatically I don’t feel either one, but as you note speaking and listening wise I’ve always found Japanese easier, and writing wise hangeul is clearly a doddle in comparison to a katakana/hiragana and kanji mix..
t_song (#49)
Yes, I can speak Korean, and I disagree with you concerning John Frankl’s accent. Even if he has a slight American accent, it does not affect his ability to communicate in Korean. In other words, Koreans would have no trouble understanding him. In fact, he is more probably more understandable than many Koreans, including some of my students.
Yes, the German professor is pretty good, but he is not as fluent as John. The German professor was only using short, simple, everyday expressions. I do not think he would have been able to do the kind of interview that John did.
“His pronunciation is very American.”
Not that much, besides he probably has an excellent vocabulary in Korean since he translates Korean literature to English.
I remember my wife gasping when she heard Pak No-ja talking on TV for the first time. He spoke with a Russian accent, but the eloquence was undeniable. It would have been clear to native speaker that he is a very intelligent man.
In any case, have you ever bothered comparing the different local dialects spoken in Korean?
Seems clear enough that even Koreans have an accent when they speak in Korean.
Yup, everybody speaks with an accent, even in their native language.
“I know some who don’t.”
Wow, I had no idea. You mean they’re not all just clones of the same person so making sweeping statements about “how Koreans think about the world” is useless bullshit?
KrZ,
That’s because you meant the part about them all having black hair and brown eyes.
I disagree.
“I disagree.”
Disagree? You can’t even lie properly.
#21: The Korean accent and Japanese one are very similar. Of westerners who end up becoming somewhat to fully fluent in the languages, I’ve found those that speak Korean can speak it to a degree very close or perfectly native (youtube has plenty), while with Japanese I have yet to hear one who I can’t pick out as a westerner, though that is not to say there isn’t a westerner who can speak perfectly like a local (my experiences with Japanese expats were slim…I honestly couldn’t stand many of them).
Japanese might seem easier to pronounce at first, yes, especially when one is just pronouncing individual words. I believe this seems to be the case because the many Korean words require the accent which westerners are unfamiliar with while many common Japanese words do not need the accent and can be closely mimicked via the English alphabet. That’s probably those that learn Korean usually come closer; because they have to practice the unfamiliar quite often, while in Japanese because they do not have to use it as often, they are quite weak at pronouncing it. Also, I’m not exactly sure why, but many Japanese expats sometimes exaggerate/force vocal tones (closest I’ve seen something close was done by girls on J tv dramas) and sound like retards… this is one thing I haven’t ever seen Korean expats do.
*probably why
*closest I’ve seen was done…
I had a two- or three-hour conversation with John Frankl a couple of years ago . . . in English. He’s very impressive, and very nice. Like me, he went to Berkeley, but he’s far more well-rounded than I. He surprised me by talking about Arkansas knives. I knew nothing about that stuff, and I’m from Arkansas! To my credit, he didn’t know much about hauling hay. To his credit, he acknowledged his ignorance on that score.
I liked him . . . partly because he told me of an opening for European History at Yonsei’s UIC and thought that I had a chance. I didn’t. At 50, I was considered “too old” . . . though not by John.
P.S. I feel that I ought to say . . . Jon Huer is a really nice guy.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
So there is a proper way to lie? Sounds like an interesting topic.
I concur that KrZ’s statement that “I knew that they all had black hair and brown eyes” is a rather sweeping and inaccurate generalization.
@ t_song 49
“heavy American accent”? Did we watch the same guy?
I showed the interview link that was posted above to my girlfriend (Korean) last night and her reaction was “엄머!.. 엄머!.” and she’s seen enough 미수다 to be used to foreigners speaking Korean at a decent level. She said his choice of words was perfect, that he sounded very intelligent and came across extremely well.
@ Mizar5 33
I asked her if it was 징그러워 and she said yes! Doesn’t give great hope to those of us hoping to one day achieve a level of Korea like that :-/ At least with more Koreans getting exposed to these foreigners that aren’t just doing silly monkey tricks with Korean these days the less likely they are to see it as ‘slimy’ and more likely to just accept it. I got the impression from my g/fs reaction that the 징그러운 feeling was more just out of shock and surprise than a spiteful hatred for foreigners speaking 우리 말. Let’s think positively <|*:-)
You must log in to post a comment.
{ 2 trackbacks }