Sure, I Might Be a Charisma Man Who Couldn’t Get Laid in a Morgue in the United States…

RE: NetizenKim’s #97 comment

(To help you understand where yours truly is coming from, she’s Korean who lived her whole life so far in her motherland and never dated a foreign guy. It could be safely said she represents a good many typical Korean women.)

the expat male always presumes to speak for his Korean wife or gf. One never actually gets to hear their POV.

You realize that you’re committing the same act, right? You are: 1. male and 2. American albeit with your Korean heritage. As a male American born and living outside Korea, you can barely establish authority over Korean affairs any more than the expatriates here. (I have no intention of speaking in defense of them, make no mistake about it.) Judging from what you wrote, I suspect your grasp of Korean history is all but shallow, and your opinion seems something of a motley collection of Korean and non-Korean thinking which is not well-grounded. Well, that’s to be expected since you’re Korean and American.

Do you even know a thing or two about how the weaker sex (those of modest birth) had been treated socially, viz. by men, from the 17-century Joseon up until circa 1945? I think you don’t, otherwise you cannot have written this:

Korean women have access to higher education as any other and there is simply no excuse. If Korean manhood fails it is because Korean women, as mothers, wives, etc are failing to fulfill their part of the social contract as “critical lovers”.

You write as if (in Korea) women have been equal to men in almost every aspect of life including equal access to higher education, but that was not the case until recently (From “recently” I mean 1970s.) With Korean women having been deprived of their rights and subordinate to men for a few hundred years, it’s no wonder they still have a certain amount of animosity toward their men. Thus, one can hardly expect them to show gestures of affection freely much less ask to dutifully play the role of a “critical lover.” (Maybe things will be different a few decades later when Korean men and women will have hopefully become two authentic equals.)

In a nutshell: Don’t delude yourself into believing that you can speak on behalf of Korean women (on the peninsula) and mind their business from far across the sea.

[OAN: “Mainland” rank-and-file Koreans have recently become more ambivalent toward Koreans with foreign nationalities living here esp. Korean-Americans what with an increasing number of incidents where these Korean-faced “foreigners” play the Korean/American card at their convenience. One such scandal involved a professor in his late thirties currently with a top-tier univ. who had lived some 14 years in the states as a Korean national, and then ten years ago, came back to his motherland to take up a position at a certain univ. using his Harvard credentials which Koreans die for.

He turned American to evade the mandatory military service and take the coveted position (if he had served, the univ. would not have waited and given it to someone else). He taught law with his JD degree from UCLA. (It turns out he studied biology at Harvard but Koreans don’t care as long as it is Harvard.). And for the next ten years this ethnic Korean stayed on in Korea as an American while, for some time, taking part in a Korean NGO with an anti-American tendency.]

Thanks for your comments, mateomiguel and john_galt718.

NetizenKim:
You’re one patient–or should I say “obsessive”-fisherman, but I’m afraid I’m no big fish.

(I almost decided not to post a comment here in the first place since I should be keeping every-hour-counts-busy with some thing this month.) You must be disappointed at finding no responses to your questions in this comment. My apologies. But I don’t think I can put forth any meaningful opinion that you look forward to tonight. If you’re really interested in getting my take on issues you raised, I’ll prepare an earnest response after I finish my personal business and post it under this thread.

On the other hand, you can find other ways for the answers to your questions-without me as your resort. If you really want to know more about Korea, its people, and its current situation, then why not learn the language. Pick up a book or two on those topics. Go to websites like Naver and try searching. You’ll discover Koreans’ own opinions about most of your questions.

(P.S. About my self-intro, it is as it is. Let’s say I’ve been a student of English for a long time. Thanks for your complimentary remarks. Please excuse this sudden arrival and departure. I’ll be gone till next month. So, farewell.)

NetizenKim:
How’ve you been?

So, where were we? Ah, picking up where we left off on the manifestations of patriarchal oppression spanning a few hundred years of the Joseon era even well into current-day Korea.

Let me resume by saying that there came about a significant Neo-Confucianist, Zhu Xi, in 12th-century Song Dynasty. His school of thought would later be branched into and systematized as Sung·ni·hak in Joseon Dynasty. By the end of the 16th century, it came to be recognized as orthodoxy, which was made possible by two influential thinkers, Yi I and Yi Hwang. During the early period of Joseon, however, scholar-bureaucrats, those of the hun·gu group, were bent on shaking off the vestiges of its predecessor, and reinforcing the newly enthroned king’s power as well as the dynasty’s economic and military prowess. With the ruling officials leaning toward pragmatism, the likes of ideological Confucianist thoughts couldn’t take firm root in the court let alone in the masses until the mid-Joseon period. Hence the demarcation in my previous comment.

Now onto the main topic of women’s status spiraling downward from then on. In fact, Gyeong·guk·dae·jeon (a code of laws on which to base Joseon’s reign) had been promulgated in 1485—putting down the foundation of a patriarchal system in print— but it was not until the 17th century that Joseon society started to hinge on the ruthless exercise of patriarchy, driven by the dissemination of ye·hak (the study of propriety) and bo·hak (the study of genealogy—patrilineage to be specific). On top of that, ignominious Confucianist customs exacerbated the stranglehold on women. Chil·geo·ji·ak, for instance, enabled Joseon men to kick out their wives from home on seven conditions: 1. failure to obey parents-in-law 2. failure to bear a son 3. exhibitions of lust 4. exhibitions of jealousy 5. suffering of a malignant disease 6. exhibitions of garrulity 7. acts of thievery. Even more, Joseon men needed yet another potent device to thrust women into submission, to put them through a process of internalizing the patriarchal morals. Sponsored by the state, the project of producing didactical texts featuring Yeollyeo—women faithfully keeping their chastity and integrity—likewise made a substantial contribution to the patriarchal oppression.

What about today? As we noted earlier, even after Joseon perished into history, we couldn’t come to terms with it once and for all, saying “Let bygones be bygones.” Old habits sure die hard.

It is still rearing its ugly head in Korean households of various social strata. The sad thing is, women are also unwittingly playing their part in passing down the virulent disease to the next generation. They affect daughters and daughter-in-laws alike.

You urge the new generation of mothers to stop continuing the vicious cycle, but I think it is too formidable a task to assign to them alone. I say this from my personal experience. I was raised by a mother who had been raised by an oppressive patriarch. All she got from him was bad influence. She lacked in love, care, support, education and everything else. She wasn’t able to love and teach me properly for she had received precious little. But I was fortunate enough to have a loving father. He learned to understand and sympathize with his wife’s misery. It was my father who saved me from becoming another madwoman who would have borne a centuries-old spite in her womb. He did what he could to reach out to his wife and me. All in all, I thank both my mother and father who maintained their marriage despite all adversities, fulfilling their part as much as they could to raise their children.

So it’s not just women’s job. No buck passing. We should overcome it together. But for the time being, women will need more understanding and help from men than the other way around, and some social props to get back on their feet.

NetizenKim:

Re: the chatter among foreigners about some sorts of brothels that are all too widespread in Korea, and women’s countermeasures to reduce them

Hmm… I need some clarification on the gist of your original question.

Foreigners love to talk about how there seems to be a whorehouse of some kind at every corner in Korean society. Where are the conscientious women’s groups who are fighting that battle? Is there anything even being done about that?

Am I correct in interpreting it as follows: morally bankrupt women on the offering end of sex business are tarnishing the national image. Prostitution is evil, therefore must be eradicated from society by women for they are the main culprit?

I think I’ll take a conservative approach here and base my response solely on the “prostitution-is-evil” part of my interpretation.

As you may be well aware, in Korean society where strict standards of sexual decorum continue to exert their sway, casual sex among singles (and extramarital lovers) is mostly confined to a morally loose group, and many men who find it hard to go through continence or don’t have a way with women turn to prostitution. In 2004, however, the state made it illegal to buy and sell sex, prompting wily sex business owners to look in every nook and cranny to set up parlors where those in need could visit and engage in pseudo or actual sex with the staff.
So this is what the foreigners were most likely referring to.

In fact, I, a conscientious, pure unadulterated woman, don’t object to prostitution as long as it is done within limits and sex workers are given proper treatment. I don’t think sex business in Korea is any worse (and any more widespread) than those found in other countries. Besides, the state will cut them some slack and won’t conduct a full-scale crackdown all over when flat-out legalization is out of the question. So my point is, I don’t see that there is any room for the conscientious women’s group—you mean holier-than-thou Christians?—to meddle in these matters.

Re: Western men’s courteous behavior toward women, and whether there is any possibility of women/mothers playing a role in it

Aw, c’mon. Are you serious?? Read your question again.

Korean women love to talk about how Western men seem more well mannered and chivalrous, etc. Fine. Western men were taught to be that way by their mothers. What kind of values are the new generation of Korean mothers teaching their children?

I can’t believe you’re making such an inquiry…

Or is it your conviction that Korean men’s shortcomings are all their mothers’ faults (not that their lack of chivalrous behavior is open to criticism)? I know you’re better than that.

You’re implying that chivalry, the origin of the modern form of Western men’s courtesy toward their women, was somehow thought up and influenced by women. Tell me, how many inventions, material and ideal, in the history of humanity, the vast majority of which has been dominated by men, have been derived from women’s head, accepted by the stronger sex, and passed down from generation to generation to the current day?

Chivalry is certainly not one of them. It was a medieval institution of knights (i.e., men who possessed both wealth and prestige). One of their lofty ideals was to protect and honor the weaker members of society. Over time, knights came to be recognized as something close to nobility, and common men strove to adopt knightly attitudes of those noblemen for several reasons (for example, to pass for one in a class-based society, to make a favorable impression when courting, and such). In other words, wo-men didn’t play much of a role in spreading it. It was spread voluntarily by men themselves. Eventually, a few of its derivatives have stayed to constitute the established institutions of Western society today. (Mind you, it has taken a thousand years.)

Tell you what, mothers could probably teach their boys to be nice to girls, but hey, it’s got to come from within as opposed to “cuz Mama says so.” Boys should learn among themselves just like the medieval plebeians emulated the gentlemen. Expecting the new generation of Korean mothers to inculcate chivalrous attitude and behavior into the heads of their boys, and then hoping that it will prevail among Korean men is but a pipe dream. I doubt that a Western custom will successfully be implanted in Korean society. (Can you imagine the Korean custom of respect for the old ever taking root in Western society?)

However, you do know for a fact that there is a good number of Korean men who are just as well-mannered as Western counterparts. No need to overreact to the provocation by a few members of the opposite sex.

Thanks very much for your compliment and input, Mizar.

Yes, I see what you mean. But the good news is there are still many young people who regard the elderly with respect from their hearts.

Young parents these days seem to forget to teach their kids good manners and proper etiquette, only indulging them. It’s a shame.

NetizenKim
Re: sexism/reverse-sexism, socially Darwinistic Korean society, liberal social egalitarianism

Do you agree that sexism exists in direct proportion to reverse-sexism? By sexism, I mean the male tendency to objectify women based upon their physical attractiveness. By reverse-sexism, I mean the female tendency to objectify men based upon their social prestige, power, and earning potential. Do you agree that sexism and reverse-sexism have a mutually escalating effect on the other.

I posit that a socially Darwinistic society where a man has to have graduated from one of the big name universities and be a doctor/lawyer or at least a white collar Chaebol man in order to be considered marriageable material in proper society, where ordinary blue collar workers, manual laborers are disdained by women, is also NOT going to be a place brimming with liberal social egalitarianism. Would you say that Korea has been experiencing a decrease in sexism/reverse-sexism or worsening?

I understand what you mean by sexism/reverse-sexism, but I tend to view them as actual examples of human sociobiology in action. Whatever we may call them, we’re pointing to the same phenomenon: natural/sexual selection at work among the human species.

Then, we can reword the biological and social traits—physical attractiveness, social prestige, power, earning potential, etc.—that you have pointed out as fitness or survival benefits. I surmise that the human mechanism of sexual selection has reached its maturity, so there won’t be much of a mutually escalating effect between the sexes. Regarding your question of whether or not sexism/reverse-sexism is on the rise, I reckon that the more resources one has (i.e., the more Korean society in general grows rich), the more one will want to fare better.

As for the socially Darwinistic society you described, I’d have to ask you, how would you expect people to behave then? Even in egalitarian society, some people will be natural-born to be driven to achieve success and higher goals of their own, setting themselves apart from the pack. They’ll eventually want to meet the opposite sex who’s in the same league as they are.

Lastly, for Korea to become a more egalitarian and enlightened society, I think the people, especially the ruling elite, must realize the need to abolish the evil things of the past from the perished dynasty, that are still corrupting their heads—elitism, a disposition to hierarchize, an appeal to connections rather than on one’s merits, to name just a few. Only then can the nation have odds at all, however small.

OECD’s Gender Wage Gap report (PDF)

Gender Gap Report 2008 (PDF)

World Economic Forum (WEF)

Global Gender Gap Index 2008 Rankings

Thank you Vince-nim for your compliment.

They say we’re from different planets, right?

It’s nice to hear that you appreciate East Asian cultures. So I suppose you’re living in Korea. I hope Koreans will make a good impression on decent people like you during your stay.

Yes, love knows no boundaries. I wish all the best to you and your girlfriend.

Arghaeri,

Yes, ^_^ but I haven’t got all the time in the world, right? Actually, I made an important decision to change my career a little belatedly (I’ll be 31, come Halloween.)

And the exam is held once a year. So, I’m kind of feeling jittery with this clock in my head that’s tick-tocking without fail.

Arghaeri,
Matter of fact, I’ll need all the luck I can get. So, thank you!