Very Funny. And Possibly Defamation

by Robert Koehler on June 27, 2009

I appear to have earned the ire of an apparently angry English teacher at Dave’s ESL.

Not that I really care, mind you, but would “wylies99″ care to explain this?

MilwaukeeDave and others- Gladly. Give me some time. They both REGULARLY post their hatred for E2 teachers in both the regular posts and the comments. Koehler regular posts that ALL E2 teachers do drugs or have drugs mailed to them. Wanna back that up with facts, Koehler?

Carr posts some things that would make any sensible person nauseous. I don’t expect either one to respond on here because they both know they are scumbags. Yeah, I said it. MANY others have seen what they’ve posted and have responded to them on the comments section of the “Marmot’s Hole.

Koehler has even flamed Michael Breen simply for being involved with education in Korea. Who they are trying to please with these comments? It’s anybody’s guess.

I regularly post that ALL E-2s do drugs and have drugs mailed to them? I’ve flamed Mike Breen for being involved with education in Korea? Interesting.

Death threats, threats of legal action, now possibly the target of online defamation… it’s hard to be a blogger sometimes.

It’s also hard to keep straight whom I hate — depending on who you ask, I’m either anti-Korean, anti-Japanese, anti-gyopo or anti-English teacher. For the record, I’ve never hated anyone. OK, that’s not true — I used to hate the New York Rangers, although I thought James Patrick was OK and never got enough credit playing next to Brian Leetch.*

The most hurtful comment, however, was by a “benji1422″:

LOL. someone with a blog roll of a few hundred daily visitors — how does that effect you? Thank about it.

Hey, that’s a few thousand daily visitors, tough guy :)

(HT to reader)

* UPDATE: I just remembered I used to hate Jim Boeheim, too.

{ 178 comments… read them below or add one }

1 dda June 27, 2009 at 11:33 pm

They both regularly dismiss the legitimite [sic!] concerns

Legitimate doesn’t rhyme with Vegemite… Bah!

2 Mizar5 June 27, 2009 at 11:49 pm

Shame on you Marmot!

Enjoy your blog immensely – you’re clearly in the stream of Korean culture and manage to give room to all sorts of characters who are enjoyable to interact with. It obviously takes a considerable amount of time and effort, and the quality is excellent.

3 The Goat June 27, 2009 at 11:50 pm

A great big load of fail for being able to identify tongue in cheek comments for the Dave’s crowd.

Whine on….whine on.

4 dda June 27, 2009 at 11:54 pm

The honourable discharge part is laughable too… Brendon (not Brendan or Brandan or whatever :-) ) Carr should show his too, maybe along with his law degree and bar membership… Bahahahaha!

5 Mizar5 June 28, 2009 at 12:00 am

Not to mention, that your blog is well balanced. It takes someone like you (much like myself) who has an intimate knowledge of and deep appreciation for Korea to be able to criticise it, get the inside humor that this person missed, and reflect on things in a wry manner. At the same time, you have not sacrificed your larger perspective as an outsider – which is a unique set of qualities.

You may not be used to being mischaracterized and having people miss the insider irony, but I find that hilarious and an affirmation of what you do.

6 Linkd June 28, 2009 at 12:08 am

I am in possession of a valuable e-artifact: a screenshot of Marmot’s sitemeter registering its 5 millionth visitor, on Jan 5th, 2009. That works out to about 3,800 visits per day, 2009 year-to-date. (If anyone wants to buy it from me, just let me know. Just to sweeten the pot, it has a picture of B. Carr on it.)

7 t_song June 28, 2009 at 12:59 am

The continuous insecurity of E2 English teachers is impressive. It’s like all White teachers in Korea are that 13-year-old girl with braces, acne and 30 extra pounds that hangs out with all Lindsey Lohan, Mean Girl-types.

Whether it’s the existential crisis of trying to create enough euphemisms to imagine the value in a career of teaching English (I’m exempting TESOL and trained educators from this list, which are what, generously, 10% of all English teachers?), a job akin to working at McDonald’s or Starbucks or a cashier, in that literally, ANYONE can fucking do it.

Or whether it’s the dating scene, where Westerners feel personally offended and emotionally stung that they don’t get some widespread societal approval (the hurt of having an ajosshi yell at your poor girlfriend, or getting scoffs from others). Most Koreans might scoff at some meaningless surface level, but most Koreans really don’t give a fuck, proportional to what Westerners believe (the dating Koreans matter) is akin to abortion or gay marriage in the U.S. If random ajosshi gets red in the face about it, it’s probably because it’s 7:37 a.m. and he’s already on his third bottle of soju (at least that’s true of the late G’pa Song).

Or whether it’s the drug thing. You’re a stereotype in Korea–like how any ethnic minority is in any country. Get over yourselves and deal with it. That you’re a stereotype (white is Right! theory of English hagwons) is what landed you this job, a job which an overwhelming majority has no qualifications beyond English being the language they grew up speaking.

Seemingly adult men with the insecurity of a 7th grader: hmmm, seems volatile. Don’t sweat it RJK. You’re dealing with children.

8 Cornelius June 28, 2009 at 1:08 am

Reading Dave’s makes my soul hurt. Sure there’s some good info posted every now and again, but for the most part it’s a giant whinefest. Getting shit-listed there is a good thing don’t worry.

9 Mizar5 June 28, 2009 at 1:12 am

Pretty good bit of psychological projection there t_song. Doesn’t it feel great to have someone to unfairly stereotype? Makes you feel superior, doesn’t it? Whatever it takes, I suppose. But as Churchill said to the lady who noted that he was drunk “In the morning I’ll be sober, and you’ll still be ugly,” when the headiness of race-based condescension wears off in the morning, you’ll still have have a complex.

10 Mizar5 June 28, 2009 at 1:29 am

“a job akin to working at McDonald’s or Starbucks or a cashier, in that literally, ANYONE can fucking do it. “

Yes, ANYONE can fucking do anything. So let’s just demean people for earning an honest living doing what they can the best way that they can.

Let’s demean the mom who busts her ass cleaning toilets to send her sons to college. Let’s demean the hard-working manual laborer who busts his ass to support a family and put brats like you through college. Let’s demean and dehumanize every human on the planet who went to work rather than spending half his life earning doctorates in philosophy.

So what is it you do, t_song, to earn an honest living that makes you so far superior to the bulk of humanity? What extraordinary qualifications do you bring to the planet? How do we measure your worth as a human being? Or perhaps, is that the core issue – poor self esteem?

11 t_song June 28, 2009 at 2:23 am

Nope. There is little doubt many Americans self-identify with their career, whether it’s white collar OR blue collar. But Mizar5, you have never been an English teacher, right? Or if you were, it was decades ago?

I was an ET from 2005 to 2007, and I can’t tell you how many English teachers are fucking miserable. Absolutely fucking miserable. And they take it out on these blogs. Hell, when I was teaching English myself, I felt like I was letting my brain decay.

Yes, I don’t want to demean ETs from making an “honest” living, and honest being to the extent that hagwon teaching is actual teaching (and not babysitting) or that public school is education (and not 50-minute blocks of orchestrated singing and hand clapping) or collegiate teaching is academia. That’s why I make the parallel with jobs most high school students have, McDonald’s, etc., or unemployed college grads.

But the difference is the English teachers are mid 20s to mid 30s. While their friends are buying cars and houses and starting a career that will afford them comforts into their adulthood, most English teachers live in this career cess pool called Korea.

I don’t make the connection of having a racial complex at all. White people are minorities in Korea. That’s a fact. You can try and paint me into a corner of being an angry minority, but I’m not that at all. If anything, I’m trying to point out white foreigner teachers’ own insecurity, which is the root issue here.

You can send it back my way and throw out Model Minority or Angry Asian Man, but that’s a separate issue, and another blog and another conversation.

12 NathanB June 28, 2009 at 2:26 am

Those boys over at Dave’s aren’t worth your time, Robert–and obviously they can neither interpret texts properly nor laugh at themselves.

13 gbevers June 28, 2009 at 2:51 am

t_song,

Teaching English in Korea is not an easy job. It requires knowledge, experience, patience, understanding, imagination, and showmanship. It also requires, at least, a 4-year college degree. Do they require 4-year college degrees at McDonald’s?

Yes, while friends are making house, car, and insurance payments back in the US, English teachers in Korea are taking the bus or subway, living rent free, and saving their money. After a few years of teaching English in Korea, many can go back to their home countries and pay cash for a house and car. If you ask me, English teachers in Korea are pretty damn smart.

14 Mizar5 June 28, 2009 at 3:14 am

I don’t make the connection of having a racial complex at all.

So you say it has nothing to do with race. OK.

White people are minorities in Korea. That’s a fact.

So it does have something to do with race?

You can try and paint me into a corner of being an angry minority, but I’m not that at all.

I’m not the one whose painting you into a corner here. You’re the one who maintains that it has nothing to do with race, and yet go out of your way to generalize about “all White teachers in Korea.” Are non-white teachers in Korea excluded from your generalizations then?

” If anything, I’m trying to point out white foreigner teachers’ own insecurity, which is the root issue here.”

Who said that’s the root issue?

Let me get this straight. What you are saying in effect is “Hey, guys, what keeps you here in “this career cess pool called Korea? Why not get on with your lives?”

That would have been a valid point to have made. However, it’s hard to see, embedded such as it is in all the racial rhetoric and the vitrol about how worthless and inferior White English teachers are as human beings.

I’m curious how you make the cognitive leap between the way hagwans are run and the alleged psychological insecurity and immaturity of English teachers? The rhetoric about how “Westerners feel personally offended and emotionally stung that they don’t get some widespread societal approval” and how White English teachers are like “that 13-year-old girl with braces, acne and 30 extra pounds that hangs out with all Lindsey Lohan, Mean Girl-types”?

That kind of rhetoric sounds as if you are asserting that white people have no legitimate right to express frustrations. Are you asserting that people (of any race or nationality) should not have the right to express any opinions about the environment in which they live because they are a racial minority? Just grin and bear it? If that were the case, how do you imagine that civil rights have been advanced so far in the US? Is that what we do in America? Then why the double standard when it comes to Korea?

I see this as racial exceptionalism, ie. “it’s OK for us as Koreans to express our opinions, but that is our exclusive right. White people are not so entitled.

Am I calling you a “racist?” No, I don’t resort tp those type of meaningless generalizations. I am simply saying you need to either sort out your thoughts a little better, do some self-examination, and decide whether you are merely venting vitrol or have a considerably more precise and/or empathic message that has become garbled in emotionalism.

15 t_song June 28, 2009 at 3:21 am

@gbev
Preach to the choir. I was an English teacher. Yes, you need a 4-year degree but if you believe in the requisite of those variety of skills, I will respect that. Most of my ET friends equated teaching to either acting or stand-up comedy. Which are both fine professions and art forms, but it’s not education. I’ll respect your opinion.

@mizar
I don’t have any Korean exceptionalism.

16 Mizar5 June 28, 2009 at 3:29 am

@mizar – I don’t have any Korean exceptionalism.

That was fast (I exhorted you to sort out your thoughts a little better and do some self-examination) I believe it is preferable to ask someone directly rather than simply jump to conclusions about him, so I take you at your word.

17 john_galt718 June 28, 2009 at 3:29 am

It would be nice if we could get through one week w/o hauling out this tiresome debate on English teachers. It goes nowhere and it never ends.

18 Adams-awry June 28, 2009 at 3:42 am

Note to Mizar5:

Robert is already married. Your obsequious remarks are a tad misguided. Not to mention creepy…

19 Mizar5 June 28, 2009 at 3:44 am

Not sure about that, john. I think my post #10 was excellent, as was gbever’s. The capacity the human mind has for this sort of thing never fails to fascinate me.

20 Mizar5 June 28, 2009 at 3:51 am

Thanks for being the first one to say so, Adams. Now I can exhale.

21 Mizar5 June 28, 2009 at 3:59 am

Not to mention the fact that my endorsement probably looks bad for him too…

22 Sonagi June 28, 2009 at 4:43 am

Yes, while friends are making house, car, and insurance payments back in the US, English teachers in Korea are taking the bus or subway, living rent free, and saving their money.

Since English teachers in Korea aren’t accruing home equity or earning a pension, they need to be saving money. Lots of it.

After a few years of teaching English in Korea, many can go back to their home countries and pay cash for a house and car.

I’ve never met anyone who paid cash for a house. A large down payment, but not a house. I did pay cash for my new car, but the idiot dealership mistook the cashier’s check for a bank loan and sent the title to the bank, where I had closed out an account. Fortunately, the bank signed over the title when I explained the error. I guess not too many people pay cash for new Hyundais.

23 john_galt718 June 28, 2009 at 4:47 am

@mizar
#10 was the one that wore me out…all that ranting; didn’t seem like you. You usually either rise above the baiting or have more fun with it.

24 john_galt718 June 28, 2009 at 4:50 am

You can buy a house for cash in the U.S. these days. In Detroit you buy several.

25 Mizar5 June 28, 2009 at 5:59 am

John, re #10, you call that a rant? Here’s a rant.

That was a gleeful argument – one of my favorates. I’d even say it was masterful, and apparently, considering the source, it was not taken as mean spirited by the ever-forbearing t_song, who is like a rambuntious but lovable kid brother in his irrational exuberence.

Imagine how insufferable I’d be if I had an ego.

26 Benji 1422 June 28, 2009 at 6:25 am

LOL is it a slow news day? When I posted as “yoodaein namja” my comments always got deleted. now i get named checked.

27 jefferyhodges June 28, 2009 at 6:26 am

“UPDATE: I just remembered I used to hate Jim Boeheim, too.”

You also hate Jon Huer. Does that count? It should, since Jon is a nice guy and you currently hate him (none of that strange “used to” past tense verb stuff about it).

Jeffery Hodges

* * *

28 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 28, 2009 at 7:03 am

Oh noes! They hates me!

It amuses me every time I read on Dave’s ESL Cafe some nitwit English teacher with poor reading comprehension and sand in his vagina exhorting (note to English teachers: this means a call to action) his fellows to deny that meanie Brendon Carr the lucrative custom of the English-teacher “community”. Don’t they know that’s what I want? Please don’t throw me in dat briar patch, Brer Fox!

It’s as if they’re saying He doesn’t like it when we shit on his pancakes? Hey, guys, let’s show him: Nobody shit on his pancakes any more. Yeah, that’ll teach him. Priceless.

For the record, I was honorably discharged from the United States Navy at the end of October 1993 at Sand Point Naval Station in Seattle after a year and a half of training and 3-1/2 years stationed at Naval Security Group Activity Pyeongtaek. But any monkey can get an honorable discharge, so I don’t understand this guy “wylies99″ waving his like a bloody shirt. Do my Good Conduct Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Korea Defense Service Medal, and three Overseas Service Ribbons make me a highly decorated veteran? No, you get them from standing around in the places where I served.

29 jefferyhodges June 28, 2009 at 7:32 am

“For the record, I was honorably discharged from the United States Navy at the end of October 1993.”

Brendon acknowledges having a record and is compelled to admit that he was onerously ‘exhorted’ from the US Navy. Is a man like that proper for teaching English? He could only be worse if he were a lawyer.

Jeffery Hodges

* * *

30 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 28, 2009 at 8:35 am

While we’re at it, I might as well explain, once again, why it is I “hate” English teachers.

I’m a corporate lawyer — specifically, one who works in foreign direct investment, M&A, technology transactions, and employment law for the management of foreign-invested companies. I know a lot about those practice areas. I know relatively much less about divorce, landlord-tenant disputes, criminal defense, traffic law, and the nuances of employment-related law as it relates to hagwons and universities. To advise on those matters requires research, since they’re not something I do to earn my living. You don’t pay me for the research, but rather expect the answers to be on the tip of my tongue.

But I’m also not admitted as an attorney in Korea. I can’t represent you in court or inveigle the police or some government agency to do or to stop doing anything. In order to do that, I have to involve one of my colleagues who is a Korean-admitted lawyer and have that person deal with you. It is that essential colleague who doesn’t like you. (For a number of reasons which I won’t recite here.) Because I have to make sure she or he gets paid for work, and you have a worthless claim and no money to pay for services, I can’t in good conscience drag my Korean colleagues into your mess.

Stop whining about it. You don’t work for free, so you shouldn’t expect us to do it either.

I do not “look down on” English teachers. Rather, I despise idiots. Unfortunately for you, about 30% of the English-teacher community is comprised of idiots. They get into various jams for which they won’t take responsibility, which leads them to look for a lawyer, which leads them to me. By that time, 99% of the callers are complete idiots. I’d rather not pick through a pile of turds looking for a kernel of corn, especially since I don’t have to.

31 Angusmack June 28, 2009 at 8:50 am

Sonagi and t_song

I know several people who paid cash for their houses, obviously not in Vancouver or San Francisco but it is possible. And pensions? Sorry, some of us are in Korean pension plans, national or teachers.

It is possible to earn a living here, build or buy a house back home, grow a pension, bank cash AND squeeze in one or two months on the beach in south-east Asia. I agree that TESOL is a low status gig, but hey, working 12 hours a week and 5 months paid vacation isn’t for everyone. A lot of people are much happier working 50 hours a week, 48 weeks a year in their “careers”. To each his own, and I’ll reflect on that while I knock back bottles of Singha lager on the beaches of Koh Phangan with white sand between my toes and coconut palms shading my white ass from the tropical sun.

32 Wedge June 28, 2009 at 9:01 am

With nothing better to do, I followed that link at the top, to a land where asshattery abounds. This one was funny: “Brendan Carr is a windbag. Don’t read his blog or seek his advice.” Sounds like the ESL community is finally getting the message, BC.

33 Sonagi June 28, 2009 at 9:04 am

@Angusmack:

Obviously it’s possible to pay, say $50,000 for a house, but homes at those prices are not in safe neighborhoods in towns and cities with viable employment opportunities. It is feasible for someone who has worked overseas for many years to buy either a retirement home or a vacation home. I know of two ESOL teachers who have done that.

As for the Korean pension plans, do you have access to a benefits calculator to figure out how much you will have earned if you manage to stay employed until you’ve earned a full pension?

34 iwshim June 28, 2009 at 9:18 am

ESL teachers in Korea are not grounded in reality. Korea is an expensive country with a low standard of living; if you can’t pull in 5,000,000 a month –go home – welfare is better.

I see a lot of panhandlers for teachers in Korea. And like the panhandlers on the west coast of the states (who ended up there cause the living was easy) you see a lot of drug use, petty crime, and mental health issues.

Who wants people like that living in their neighbourhood?

Teachers by definition are people who cannot make a living in the real world.

35 Granfalloon June 28, 2009 at 9:31 am

To the Haters:
Sorry if we English teachers ruffled your feathers. But honestly, you need to stop looking at Dave’s ESL Cafe as a microcosm of English teachers in Korea. I don’t read those comment threads, because frankly, they’re beneath my dignity. I invite you to take the high road and do the same.

Many of you seem to think teaching is not a legitimate profession. I think that’s very sad, because what it says to me is that you’ve made it through 12-plus years of education without having even one good teacher. I hope this underscores how difficult a job it truly is. I’ve often thought of teaching as a bit like playing the harmonica. Anyone can do it, but very few people can do it well. And to do it in a way that anyone would call “inspiring” requires a combination of talent, love for your profession, and years of experience. That Korea, a country with a supposedly deep-rooted respect for teachers, allows so many buffoons to do it, is a sad irony that stuns me to this day.

Every profession tends to exaggerate their own importance. But I truly believe that good education is at the heart of solving many of the major problems the world will face in the future. And if you really need someone to kick around to make yourself feel better, try setting the bar a little higher than Dave’s Cafe commenters, okay?

36 Linkd June 28, 2009 at 10:09 am

Many of you seem to think teaching is not a legitimate profession.

It’s not. And I say that with all due respect, but the word “profession” is misapplied to teachers.

Accountants, lawyers, pilots, nurses, actuaries and engineers are professionals. They must learn a body of knowledge that defines what their job is. You cannot be an accountant without learning the accounting system, you cannot be an engineer without learning the physics and design of structures. Testing people on their knowledge and application of knowledge in these fields is sufficient to determine that they are qualified for their jobs and deserving of the title ‘professional’.

This isn’t so for teachers. Anyone can do it, and except in extreme cases, there is no objective way of determining who is a good and who is a bad teacher. Some schools or school systems may insist that they only hire people with a BEd or a MEd (or even a Masters in TESOL), but that doesn’t make teaching a profession, it just means that those schools have make their own selection criteria for their employees.

This is a bit silly, but let me put it this way: What if I walked into an airline office and said “I want to be a pilot. Put me in the cockpit right now.” What if I walked into KPMG and said “Show me a spreadsheet and I’ll take a stab at closing last year’s accounts for a blue-chip company.” (Korean inside joke – What if I said to a construction company “Put me in charge of building that department store”).

With teaching, there is no objective way that anyone with a 4 year BEd and 20 years of classroom experience can claim that they are any better or any more qualified to do their job than any schmuk who walks in off the street and wants to give it a try.

37 tinyflowers June 28, 2009 at 10:10 am

They’re not real teachers. How many “English teachers” in Korea are qualified to teach in America? 5% 10%? Most of them would be lucky to have a job.

38 pentaxian3 June 28, 2009 at 10:15 am

To Herr Carr: While I agree with you that a large majority of English teachers are idiots I wish you wouldn’t extol (this means to state strongly) the misconception that we are singularly stupid, or even stupid beyond the background level.

I’d posit instead that the average person from Canada or America is in fact quite oversensitive and litigious, purely due to culture. Most people raised in the West are accustomed to the idea that they can sue over anything, however, as one grows older and realizes the extent of the cost and time involved with legally extirpating (this means to destroy completely, or uproot) ones’ antagonists, this idea becomes less realistic.

Later in life many of these English teaches who previously didn’t understand the rules of adulthood, and the real difficulty involved in suing a company that’s got more money than you, will reach comprehension. So, as a logical conclusion, until Korea is frequented only by seasoned professionals with experience in life, please, just deal with it. You’ve decided to settle down as a grown man, in a child’s country. Korea is a place for Westerners, like me, who are figuratively still children, to explore, grow, and learn, and yes, to threaten litigation. Recognize your position, and deal with it without the vitriol and supercilious (literal translation is high-eyebrows, but is usually recognized as arrogant) attitude.

To further complicate matters you’ve consciously decided to become a public figure by involving yourself in blogs that are widely published and read. This is your choice. As and adult you should know your choices will have consequences. I promise you that you don’t know who I am, but I sure as heck know who you are. You are a public figure, albeit a small one. Further, it wouldn’t be much of a jump to opine that you’re now a de facto member of the press. So, any attention you get, as a member of the press, and a public figure, on a very limited scale, should be expected.

If you don’t want this attention, don’t claim to be a lawyer, don’t advertise anywhere but wherever it is paid corporate legal advise is trolled – I promise you won’t get any more children complaining. Until then, you should expect some unhappy children. I’d hazard say you subconsciously desire it.

39 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 28, 2009 at 10:21 am

This guy wylies99 is quite the fool:

It’s disgusting because so many of us have done all we can to help with the education of young Koreans and have tried to make positive things happen with the Koreans we work with and teach every day. Have Koehler and Carr done anything positive for young Korean children while in Korea?

Why, yes, wylies99. Yes I have.

I help investors come to Korea and create jobs for their Daddies. According to AMCHAM fully 15% of Koreans who are employed are employed in a foreign-invested enterprise of the sort that I advise. When I help a company like Gmarket get sold off to eBay (a US$1.2 billion transaction), those Gmarket employees get access to global markets and an opportunity to bring their business model worldwide.

I advise corporations on compliance with laws. All kinds of laws, from environmental, product-safety and labelling laws to keep people safe from harm, to employment laws making sure they get the pay and benefits they deserve, to real-estate zoning and construction law to get buildings made. Not once in my career, despite what Hollywood and the freeloader Democrats tell you, has any corporation ever asked for help to break the law or to do the wrong thing. Every day, what I do is connected to making the world a better place.

(By contrast, I can’t begin to count the number of times some random English teacher has called me looking for advice on how to beat a drug test, as if I were the editor of High Times or something.)

If you or the kids enjoy iPod and iPhone (don’t thank me yet on iPhone, of course), Blackberry, Nintendo, Cartoon Network, MTV, Nickelodeon, Unos pizza, Jamba Juice, or a whole host of other consumer delights from foreign lands, I’m partly to thank for that enjoyment because I have provided legal services connected to their introduction here. You’re welcome.

By contrast, wylies99, you’ve earned a living off a truly evil private education system which robs Korean children of their childhood, tormenting them late into the night on “study” which produces little, if anything, in the way of tangible results. An infinitesimal number of those kids ever learn to use English, despite all the money and time wasted, but they do it out of fear and anxiety. Don’t you feel like an asshole standing there clapping your hands and singing idiot songs as you watch those sleepy-eyed kids’ families waste their hard-earned money on you?

40 Linkd June 28, 2009 at 10:24 am

That is not to say that training doesn’t help. I got a CELTA in 2000, and I highly recommend it. It’s actually very much a leadership-training sort of course, and you are hands-on in front of a class from Day 1. I definitely became a better teacher after taking it, but also a better (business) presenter and time manager. Maybe the best thing was that it relieved any stress I may have had about my job – after the CELTA, I could handle ANYTHING.

41 KrZ June 28, 2009 at 10:32 am

“With teaching, there is no objective way that anyone with a 4 year BEd and 20 years of classroom experience can claim that they are any better or any more qualified to do their job than any schmuk who walks in off the street and wants to give it a try.”

Testing the proficiency of their students after a semester versus the proficiency of another group of students taught by someone with neither experience in teaching nor a degree in education would be pretty objective. I had some professors who were excellent educators and could convey a much larger amount of information per unit time. They were enthusiastic, used well thought-out presentation materials and examples, and solicited intelligent and productive input from the class. On the other hand I had some professors who had been using the exact same teaching material for decades, spoke in a monotone, didn’t challenge the class, and simply didn’t provide the same level of education. Qualification and aptitude standards among Korean hagwons may be extremely low, but that is due in large part to having a huge demand for native English teachers combined with a limited supply. Korea’s lax standards don’t equate to the entire field of education being unskilled labor capable of being performed by any semi-conscious human being.

42 Linkd June 28, 2009 at 10:45 am

Ya got me there. Even worse, I have nearly 3 years of laboratory experience – should have intuited that experiment automatically.

43 pentaxian3 June 28, 2009 at 10:58 am

To KrZ:

You do make excellent points, objective (or supposedly so) tests have shown that efficient teachers impart 2 semesters of material for every semester of time spent. Bad ones impart 1/2 a semester for every semester. So, one full year of good teaching is the equal of 8 years of bad teaching.

It was in the NY Times a few months back, (6 or 7 actually).

However the article that I’m unfairly referencing without proper citation DOES point out that teaching is at some level innate. The degree of education learned does not correspond in any way, causal or merely correlative, with the ability of a teacher.

So yes, it is a profession, and yes, it can be tested, but no, education on education does not result in better teaching (it may heighten it, or bring out abilities that a teacher didn’t have the confidence for, but other than that, no). That of course seems like a “does not follow” fallacy, many professions have an exact learned body of knowledge that without, you can not do your job.

What DOES have a direct impact on teaching is how much one knows about their subject field. I’m not an English Major, so had a far steeper learning curve than one of my fellow teachers who has one. The same would go with anyone assigned to teach science, math, history, or any other specific field.

Body of knowledge + intangibles = effective teaching.

The fact that the intangibles, which cannot be measured except on student results, are not measurable in no way detracts from teaching being a profession.

The problem with most education degrees is that they actually make a rather small impact on the overall body of SUBJECT knowledge the teacher has – which is one of the most important elements to teaching effectively.

44 Granfalloon June 28, 2009 at 11:00 am

Linkd:
I hear what you’re saying, but the fact that teaching skill is so hard to nail down in empirically solid ways doesn’t mean that there’s no such thing. If you were to pilot an airplane and crash it into the airport on take off, no one would blame it on the airplane having not studied enough. There are so many variables at play in just one session of one class that “judging” the quality of a teacher is daunting. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Are you really telling me there’s no difference between Jaime Escalante and “wylies99″?

Forty-five percent of Americans believe the Earth is 6000 years old*. This is what happens when people throw up their hands and say “Anybody can be a teacher.”

*Francis S. Collins, “The Language of God.” Fantastic book, by the way.

45 KrZ June 28, 2009 at 11:06 am

“tormenting them late into the night on “study” which produces little, if anything, in the way of tangible results”

Korea is in the top 4 for math, reading, and science skills internationally (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0923110.html). Seems pretty tangible to me, though there should be a middle ground between the education provide here in Dumbfuckistan and that in Korea. Also, I’m not a teacher and have no intention of defending the average South Korean native English teacher, just playing Devil’s advocate here.

46 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 28, 2009 at 11:12 am

Korea is in the top 4 for math, reading, and science skills internationally (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0923110.html).

Wow! Those are great results. The native-speaker English teachers in public schools and private institutes must be doing a bang-up job for Korea to have achieved so well in math, Korean-language literacy, and science. What’s that you say? Native speaker English teachers don’t teach these subjects? Well, never mind. With such excellent students, the English teachers surely can’t fail.

Oops — 136th in the world on the TOEFL. Never mind.

47 gbevers June 28, 2009 at 11:25 am

Iwshim wrote (#33),

ESL teachers in Korea are not grounded in reality. Korea is an expensive country with a low standard of living; if you can’t pull in 5,000,000 a month –go home – welfare is better.

I save about 24 million won a year without really trying. That means I do not teach during my 20 weeks of paid vacation or more than my 24-hour a week teaching schedule at school. That does not include the money I am saving in a private pension fund or any interest I am earning on my savings. I also have a large private, air-conditioned office with sink.

I live rent free, which means I am not paying property taxes or home loan interest, buying furniture, or paying for fire and theft insurance. My apartment maintenance fees, gas, electric, phone, and Internet expenses add up to between 120,000 and 150,000 won a month.

I do not own or need a car, which means I am not making car or auto insurance payments, buying gasoline, or paying any upkeep costs associated with owning a car. My school’s bus picks me up and brings me home to my 2-bedroom, 12th-floor apartment every workday, which means my weekly transportation expense is about 5,000 won or less, which is usually two taxi rides. Also, a one-way bus ticket to Seoul–a safe, exciting metropolitan city–costs me about 8,000 won. A visit to the doctor costs me about 10,000.

I live next to a stream with a jogging and biking path that runs for miles. I can walk there or anywhere in my neighborhood day or night without worrying about getting attacked or mugged. I am less than a thirty-minute bus ride away from a beautiful mountain range. Restaurants and grocery stores are also within walking distance.

You do not need to be making 5,000,000 won a month to be living safer, more comfortable life than people are living in the United States, and your comparison to welfare receptients is simply ridiculous.

It is people like you, Iwshim, who are living as slaves to a system that leaves them with little leisure time and bleeds them dry. If you enjoy that kind of reality, then continue living it, but I prefer my ungrounded reality.

I wonder how much leisure time our resident lawyer has? I also wonder if his lack of leisure time might be one of the reasons he dislikes English teachers so much?

48 Darth Babaganoosh June 28, 2009 at 11:28 am

The continuous insecurity of E2 English teachers is impressive. It’s like all White teachers in Korea are[...]

teaching English a job akin to working at McDonald’s or Starbucks or a cashier, in that literally, ANYONE can fucking do it.

Sure, anyone can fucking do it. Not anyone can fucking do it well; just because you’re in front of a classroom flapping your lips doesn’t mean anyone has learned anything. If they haven’t learned anything, you’re not a teacher despite what the boss hired you for.

I can say the same of any job: Anyone can do it, not anyone can do it well.

49 Darth Babaganoosh June 28, 2009 at 11:29 am

Let’s try that again

The continuous insecurity of E2 English teachers is impressive. It’s like all White teachers in Korea are[...]

SOME E2 English teachers. SOME white teachers. SOME.

teaching English a job akin to working at McDonald’s or Starbucks or a cashier, in that literally, ANYONE can fucking do it.

Sure, anyone can fucking do it. Not anyone can fucking do it well; just because you’re in front of a classroom flapping your lips doesn’t mean anyone has learned anything. If they haven’t learned anything, you’re not a teacher despite what the boss hired you for.

I can say the same of any job: Anyone can do it, not anyone can do it well.

50 congee June 28, 2009 at 11:32 am

How many times do we have to read Carr’s resume? Dude, we get it, you’re a lawyer (although why somebody with bona fide legal qualifications would choose to live in a backwater like Korea is a bit of mystery to say the least).

As for Carr’s unhealthy obsession with English teachers, I smell a broken heart. Is there something you’d like to share with the rest of us, Brendon?

51 KrZ June 28, 2009 at 11:34 am

“What’s that you say? Native speaker English teachers don’t teach these subjects? Well, never mind. With such excellent students, the English teachers surely can’t fail.”

South Korean TOEFL scores are right in line with China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and well above Japan. Though internationally they rank very low, it is unfair to compare their scores to those of individuals from countries whose languages share so much with English.

52 tbonetylr June 28, 2009 at 11:43 am

According to Carr he is great because he works in law, English teachers are bad… just because they work in Korea.

Carr is a NITWIT blaming native English teachers for test results and because… “you’ve earned a living off a truly evil private education system which robs Korean children of their childhood, tormenting them late into the night on “study” which produces little, if anything, in the way of tangible results.”

Hey Carr, can you smell the irony? According to you, you help Koreans earn money which they use to send their children to us… in that ” evil private education system.”

Sniff, sniff, sniff!!!

53 cm June 28, 2009 at 11:45 am

“I save about 24 million won a year without really trying. ”

How does the Dokto project help you with that?

54 gbevers June 28, 2009 at 11:50 am

CM,

The 24 million does not include any potential earnings from my Dokdo research.

55 Linkd June 28, 2009 at 12:27 pm

Granfalloon, my only issue was with the use of the word professional, and the understanding of what a professional is and by what right someone can claim the title.

This statement of Darth’s is false: I can say the same of any job: Anyone can do it, not anyone can do it well.

You can’t say that of any job. For the professions, you simply must have the training in a body of arcane knowledge that defines your job. An untrained person CANNOT step into a professional’s job. But an untrained person CAN pick up a Grade 10 chemistry textbook, read Chapter 2, and then walk into a room and do their level best to teach it (assume that whoever hires them puts as much care into the selection decision as would go into hiring for any other job). The results may initially be laughable, as with any new hire in a new job, but I still contend that the untrained teacher may soon produce results that are quite acceptable, purely by their own trial and error, and not based on any formal instruction in the art of teaching. This isn’t the case with a profession.

56 WeikuBoy June 28, 2009 at 12:42 pm

I’ve been waiting a long time for a chance to ask Brendon about this very topic.

“I’m also not admitted as an attorney in Korea. I can’t represent you in court or inveigle the police or some government agency to do or to stop doing anything. In order to do that, I have to involve one of my colleagues who is a Korean-admitted lawyer … — Brendon Carr @29

What is it you actually do? I picture an English-speaking client telling you what he/she/it wants to do, then you (perhaps with the help of an interpreter for difficult concepts or phrases at least) telling the lawyers at your firm. The lawyers tell you, through an interpreter, which forms & fees at which govt offices the client must provide. You also give a standard talk about doing business in Korea and tell the clients to keep in regular touch, which of course they never do until there is a problem, when you all again swing into action. Lather, rinse, repeat. Is that about right?

I’m not trying to put you down; honestly. I’m just trying to figure out how you add value to your firm’s product. I would assume your Korean is probably pretty good by this time; but can and do you do your own research in Korean? Really? (Wouldn’t a lawyer (i.e., a Korean) have to check your work anyway, to avoid malpractice?)

To be honest, you sound just like a native English speaker teacher. We are, after all, not licensed to teach in Korea. Yet those Koreans who are licensed to teach don’t speak English; and so Korea needs our help to deliver a valuable service (English education) to our clients (the students). We also use our knowledge of the outside world to add nuances of which most Koreans are unaware.

If Koreans could speak English, we would not be needed. Can the same not also be said of you?

57 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 28, 2009 at 1:08 pm

In France, I have a number of American friends who are admitted to the Paris Bar — despite the fact that there is a metric pantsload of French lawyers who speak great English.

Same goes for the United States, Germany, Israel, Mexico, and other OECD states: A reasonably intelligent immigrant can take and pass the bar examination, which has a 30-60% pass rate. Only in Korea and Japan is the system rigged so that the test is unduly difficult (1-2% pass rate), which tends to squash the ambitions of immigrant lawyers — at least first-generation immigrants — to become licensed to appear in court.

Thank goodness 90% of lawyers’ work requires no contact with the court. For day-to-day legal work involving drafting, reviewing documents, preparing advice, and educating clients, the license of the lawyer and his educational background is largely irrelevant. Skill set is important, though. If Korean lawyers had the same skill set and could draft documents in English like a native speaker, we might not be needed.

It would be helpful if you had experience as a client. Most would tell you how little value is added by the Korean lawyer. I would argue that the burden of preparing for the Korean bar examination, and the content of the post-examination training pipeline, is directly responsible for the skills deficit perceived by foreign clients.

Anyway, at the end of the day if your “face man” characterization of the foreign lawyer’s role were correct, the presence of so many foreign-trained Koreans (yuhaksaeng) and Korean-American lawyers in the local legal community, where they comprise more than 85% of total foreign lawyers, could not be explained. They’re not white and their English (especially the yuhaksaeng lawyers) is not as good. Yet, somehow, they add value too.

58 seouldout June 28, 2009 at 1:09 pm

…avoid malpractice?

You’re kidding, right? Korea’s SOP is, at best, ignore malpractice…unless it’s committed by a foreigner. So you can expect Mr. Carr’s abilities to be superlative. CYA is an excellent motivator.

If you want research, and can afford it, I reckon he’ll be happy to provide it. Have you checked his hourly rate?

59 Granfalloon June 28, 2009 at 1:10 pm

I’ll be sorry to see this discussion degrade into semantics, but what, then, is a professional? Is music a profession? Because most musicians’ first attempts at making music are indeed laughable, but through time and effort become “acceptable,” or in some cases, not. Nevertheless, when a person says they are a professional musician, is this too a misapplication of the term?

You talked about accountants learning accounting systems, and engineers learning physics. Is your implication that teachers need do no such learning to perform their jobs? Because I can assure you this is not the case. In fact, I think engineers have it easy: the laws of physics don’t suddenly change because one of your students had a death in the family, but the mechanisms of education certainly do (notice how I didn’t say “laws of education.” There ain’t no guarantees in this game).

I’ll agree, testing to see whether or not a teacher has acquired the requisite skills and knowledge to perform at a “professional” level is not as easy as testing accountants and engineers for the same. But that doesn’t mean those skills don’t exist.

If anything, I would say that attitudes like the one you display, in which it’s okay to let anyone teach 10th grade chemistry on the assumption that “he may soon produce results that are quite acceptable” are hurting education and leading to many of the problems that people blame teachers for. They justify exactly the kind of lax hiring in Korea (and elsewhere) that everyone agrees is harmful to students. And they foster a society in which people who enter teaching are looked down on as failures. Believe me, teaching is a difficult enough job without piling on social stigma.

60 iwshim June 28, 2009 at 1:16 pm

Saving – 24 million won a year
You got me beat there Gerry.

I got a 10 month old daughter Susanne though.

61 seokso June 28, 2009 at 1:30 pm

I’ll second the suggestion that if you want to improve the image of foreign teachers, shut down Dave’s ESL. The shocking idiocy of the posts almost stopped me from coming to Korea. I figured that if most teachers were like that, I wouldn’t want to have anything to do with them. A friend already in Korea convinced me otherwise. Most esl teachers aren’t as stupid as they are made out to be. Many are. The one’s who are smart enough to put in a little research to find a good position and who have the maturity to handle themselves well in a foreign country can do well. The ones who get into trouble are the ones who make their own problems.

62 Linkd June 28, 2009 at 1:42 pm

Professions get to define the standards of their titles, because no one else is qualified to. To be called an accountant, I have to convince a governing body of accountants that I have mastered the book learning, and then I have to work under someone who has earned the title for a certain period of time, and then I have to meet licensing requirements set by that body. Think ‘articling’ or ‘residency’, etc.

This can be more useful in some professions than others. It’s reasonably fair to say that 100% of pilots are good pilots, given the extremely low incidence of air traffic accidents and the even lower incidence of pilot error. Take something like a CFA, however (certified financial analyst). The designation was created due to the rather poor analytical skills possessed by many people with MBAs (management is also not a profession, btw). CFA education is difficult and the test rigorous, with a high fail rate. You also don’t get the designation until you’ve actually worked in a financial services firm in a practical capacity. These people are wicked spreadsheet jockeys who can produce amazingly intricate analyses of various investment products, and make insightful recommendations for action. But you can still lose a ton of money by taking their advice. In fact, it’s common. But pilots don’t crash many planes.

Note that teachers’ unions tend to resist attempts to apply standards of testing to their ‘profession’. This is too bad. If teachers want more money and more recognition, they should come up with a way to measure their value. The fixed pay tables they work on (years of experience on one axis and years of education on the other axis) don’t measure anything of value to their clients.

“Professional musician/artist/dancer/athlete” is a misuse of the term, but I’ll allow it on practical grounds, because it usefully identifies the limited number of people who get paid to engage in these activities, as opposed to hobbyists and wannabes.

63 Nix June 28, 2009 at 1:47 pm

Daegudavid (from page three of the ESL forum topic)
>Conservatives are jerks. Their opinions aren’t worth listening to…

This made me smile in so many ways.

64 WeikuBoy June 28, 2009 at 1:52 pm

Brendon, thanks. If I understand correctly, you are saying that not only do Korean lawyers suck at speaking English, they also suck at practicing law (at least, outside the courtroom, which for most lawyers is where nearly all if not all of their time is spent).

Granfalloon (and others), my understanding of “professional” is someone who is licensed by the state. Doctors (and nurses), lawyers, accountants, architects, engineers, electricians, plumbers, and yes, teachers. So not anyone can be a teacher in the U.S., but any native speaker with a B.A. can be a teacher’s assistant or “guest English teacher” in Korea.

65 seokso June 28, 2009 at 1:54 pm

As to the teaching “profession”, I think we need to be clear about one thing: teaching English in Korea does not make one a teacher. A real teacher is a professional because, as someone mentioned before, they need plenty of specialized training for their license. An esl teacher in Korea, such as myself, is a dancing monkey. Even an English teacher here is fully trained and qualified, most schools and hagwons structure lessons to prevent using those skills. That works fine for unskilled teachers, but hampers skilled ones.

That said, being an esl teacher isn’t necessarily a bad job. For someone who is young and inexperienced in this bad economy, a job that gives housing, short hours of easy work, long vacations, and decent pay is a pretty smart choice. I’ve been here for three years now and, in that time, paid off my credit cards, literally filled my passport, paid off half my student loans, saved up a nice bit of cash and generally enjoyed life. If I had stayed at the better paying job I had back home, I may have gotten ahead in my career and maybe picked up a house with a mortgage. I wouldn’t, however, have been happy about it because of what I would have missed out on.

66 gbevers June 28, 2009 at 1:55 pm

I do not think any of us would deny Brendon’s intelligence. Also, most of what he writes is tongue-in-cheek, so people should just sit back, enjoy his wit, occasionally spar with him, and glean what free legal advice they can from his comments. People should admit that The Marmot’s Hole would be a pretty boring place without Brendon.

By the way, I didn’t know Brendon was so highly decorated. I didn’t get any of those ribbons during my two and a half years running Korean bars in the navy.

67 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 28, 2009 at 1:55 pm

Brendon, thanks. If I understand correctly, you are saying that not only do Korean lawyers suck at speaking English, they also suck at practicing law (at least, outside the courtroom, which for most lawyers is where nearly all if not all of their time is spent).

That’s not what I’ve written. There is a perceived skills gap caused by a difference between what Korean lawyers have been trained and socialized to provide, and what foreign clients think they’re buying (and what they wish they could receive from Korean lawyers).

68 Granfalloon June 28, 2009 at 2:08 pm

This is a good and thorough work-up of what you mean when you say “professional.” But it’s not what people mean when they use that term (trust me, I have professional experience in linguistics). Plumbers, carpenters, firefighters and polices officers . . . are they professionals? I have a friend who recently became a journeyman plumber. The process is not at all unlike what you describe for an accountant. Actually, if we break it down, it’s not at all unlike what it takes to be a certified teacher. In your own words:
- “I have to convince a governing body of accountants that I have mastered the book learning,” Do certified teachers do that? Yes. Replace the word “accountants” with “teachers.” I’ll admit, I think this stage is way too easy for new teachers, but it’s there.
- “then I have to work under someone who has earned the title for a certain period of time,” Student-teaching. Check.
- “then I have to meet licensing requirements set by that body.” Oh hell yeah. Quite a pain in the ass, too, as it’s different for each state in the US.

Seems to me teachers are quite “professional” by your criteria. Now, are we only talking about teachers in Korea, many of whom have done none of the above? Because in that case, we’re mostly in agreement. I dream of a day when the Korean government will start up a certification system for foreign teachers. The harder the better. My income would triple overnight.

69 Linkd June 28, 2009 at 2:18 pm

Let me think about that. Got some amateur wine tasting to do. But I can give you a yes on the certified tradesmen right now.

70 NathanB June 28, 2009 at 3:42 pm

Linkd, you have written that “Professions get to define the standards of their titles, because no one else is qualified to,” but neglect to notice the fact that the teachers’ colleges (not unions, which are different) do indeed play this role.

It seems to me that you have put the cart before the horse in terms of the way you define “profession,” and also in terms of your understanding of how the profession works. I say this as someone who has experienced the failure of “teaching” prior to receiving training.

Finally, as for continuous learning, there are conferences for teachers to attend, and journal articles to read. Good, fresh teaching, especially in a changing environment, requires continuous learning and calibration. Teaching is most certainly a “profession” however one defines the word.

71 R. Elgin June 28, 2009 at 3:53 pm

. . . I can’t begin to count the number of times some random English teacher has called me looking for advice on how to beat a drug test, as if I were the editor of High Times or something.

Very funny indeed (I laughed) but I was under the impression that there is a very small number of English Teachers with drug-related problems in Korea. Does this mean that your higher profile as an American, non-Korean lawyer exposes you more often to the supplications of this subset of losers or that there really is a higher number of English Teachers taking drugs?

72 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 28, 2009 at 4:08 pm

My estimate is that all E-2 visa holders are taking drugs, or molesting children. Or both.

But seriously, I think there are something like 20 drug-use convictions of E-2 visa holders each year. (How’s a guy supposed to make a living from that case volume, I ask you.) I would guess the number of persons under investigation would exceed 100, and the number of drug users would be maybe 10 times that. Probably only not more than 5% of English teachers use drugs in Korea, but that still leads 12-15 of those cretins to call me each year with one beat-the-system inquiry or another. I usually advise shaving the body toe-to-top, including eyebrows, and fleeing the country.

73 gbevers June 28, 2009 at 4:12 pm

Brendon wrote:

My estimate is that all E-2 visa holders are taking drugs, or molesting children. Or both.

See! I told you Brendon was witty.

74 shakuhachi June 28, 2009 at 4:18 pm

Robert, it could be worse. It could be a lot worse.

I have been going through a libel case for over a year now (nothing to do with my activities on the net), and it has just now finished. I am bound by a limited NDA so I cannot say anything except that it was settled to my satisfaction.

Isn’t the bar for defamation/libel quite low in Korea? Maybe it is time for you to get litigious on his ass!

75 NathanB June 28, 2009 at 4:19 pm

Brendon, I have sometimes suspected that you are–quite admirably–trying to take some of the heat away from Robert (although I’m sure Robert can handle just about anything). Working yourself up over the course of several comments to this, though, doesn’t do anyone any favors.

76 dda June 28, 2009 at 4:57 pm

Most people raised in the West are accustomed to the idea that they can sue over anything

In the West? Of what? Do you equate “The West™” to “The US”???

77 Arghaeri June 28, 2009 at 6:09 pm

Yes, he does!!

78 Darth Babaganoosh June 28, 2009 at 6:26 pm

This statement of Darth’s is false: I can say the same of any job: Anyone can do it, not anyone can do it well.

You can’t say that of any job. For the professions, you simply must have the training in a body of arcane knowledge that defines your job.

You need the training to do the job WELL. I could walk into an accounting firm and act like I was an accountant. I’d do it poorly, but I could do it. I could walk into an insurance company and act like I were an actuary, or walk into an engineering firm and act like an engineer. Again, I’d do the jobs poorly, but I could do them. I can’t imagine a firm putting up with my incompetence in the job long, and they would probably give me the boot pretty quickly. Compare that to EFL in Korea where you practically have to murder someone to get fired for incompetence.

79 Arghaeri June 28, 2009 at 6:28 pm

“I sincerely appreciate the fine work of CNN’s Mr. Richard Quest in lowering the standard of public behavior expected to retain one’s employment.” LOL

See! GBevers told you Brendon was witty.

80 McGenghis June 28, 2009 at 6:41 pm

I’m an English teacher, complete with the joint degree in basket-weaving and Anglo-Saxon modalities. I’m pretty sure Dave’s is more damaging to my professional image* than this site.

*said with giant grain of jjimjilbang dental salt

81 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 28, 2009 at 7:05 pm

Compare that to EFL in Korea where you practically have to murder someone to get fired for incompetence.

To be fair, that’s the general legal standard across the Korean economy, thanks to the Labor Standards Act. Incompetence is deemed to be the employer’s fault for failing to recognize how worthless you are.

82 John from Daejeon June 28, 2009 at 7:22 pm

#33, There are plenty of homes all across the country in decent neighborhoods (I bought mine in cash last year in a gated neighborhood for much less than $30k) where there are jobs for those willing to work. I may not have bought a place in a ritzy neighborhood or L.A., N.Y.C., or other large metro area, but a lot of decent people are able to live good lives in the middle America that exists between the two coasts.

http://realestate.aol.com/home-prices/30000?ncid=AOLCOMMre00dynlprim0013&icid=main|main|dl4|link1|http%3A%2F%2Frealestate.aol.com%2Fhome-prices%2F30000%3Fncid%3DAOLCOMMre00dynlprim0013

83 Han bites dog June 28, 2009 at 7:30 pm

I could walk into an insurance company and act like I were an actuary, or walk into an engineering firm and act like an engineer. Again, I’d do the jobs poorly, but I could do them. I can’t imagine a firm putting up with my incompetence in the job long, and they would probably give me the boot pretty quickly. Compare that to EFL in Korea where you practically have to murder someone to get fired for incompetence.
====
So… If you were asked to do a shear test on a six span box viaduct you would be able to come up with something? Because most people wouldn’t.
I broadly agree with you, but the difference with EFL (in Korea at least) isw that you don’t need any technical knowledge in advance to do the job.
In theory, at least, one can be a pretty good teacher with no training at all, just a good knowledge of your subject. In practice this is so risky and so unlikely that governments don’t let you lead a school classroom until you are qualified.
EFL and ESL are professions in many countries, but in Korea that’s a harder thing to say. There is no career ladder, generally speaking. Training is usually self led and unrewarded. It is, as you say, quite difficult to get fired for being bad at your job (although quite easy to get fired in spite of it). There is generally no effective monitoring.
I suppose with the scale of the EFL industry here, Korea could be quite a big player in English teaching, but until it becomes a profession (which will be ages because they’ll need to sort the hagwons out) it won’t happen.

84 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 28, 2009 at 7:33 pm

Here’s the working link: http://realestate.aol.com/home-prices/30000&ncid=AOLCOMMre00dynlprim0013 (.) I can’t believe how I can read HTML escaped entities. There are homes for $30,000 or less in Appalachian Mississippi — what a surprise.

If you’re willing to chase the goats out, I can probably find one for much less than that for you in rural Boone County, Missouri.

85 gbevers June 28, 2009 at 8:19 pm

HERE is a 3-bedroom, 2-car garage (1,500 sq. ft) home in Dallas for $37,500. Of course, the neighborhood could crime-ridden.

The deals are certainly out there, but people have to decide where and how they want to live. Everyone has different priorities and budgets. What is Boone County Missouri like?

86 Mizar5 June 28, 2009 at 8:45 pm

john_galt: “It would be nice if we could get through one week w/o hauling out this tiresome debate on English teachers. It goes nowhere and it never ends.”

Sorry, John, it turns out that you were right about this, and I was wrong. The thread quite quickly degenerated into the mindless denigration of a profession.

I owe you one.

87 cm June 28, 2009 at 11:20 pm
88 Mizar5 June 28, 2009 at 11:44 pm

Lol, cm. Don’t think Gerry wouldn’t love to enter that frey either.

89 Uri Onara June 29, 2009 at 12:12 am

“LOL. someone with a blog roll of a few hundred daily visitors — how does that effect you? Thank about it.”

It looks like the standards of spelling have been really dropping for those who supposedly have a 4 year degree.

90 NathanB June 29, 2009 at 12:24 am

For the record, my previous comment referred to an earlier version of comment #72; I tip my hat to Brendon for the addition of the very appropriate second paragraph in that comment.

91 The Goat June 29, 2009 at 12:41 am

If people were less concerned about other people’s perception and more concerned about their own quality of life and personal satisfaction, threads like this would not exist.

Sadly, threads like this exist.

92 Jeff Harrison June 29, 2009 at 1:43 am

Brendon, I don’t know about you, but I’ve happily gotten my “Help! I’m a Canadian English teacher who got a box of weed in the mail from someone I’ve never met, although the box was sent from my own hometown, population 24″ calls down to about one per month, and my “Help. I need you to sue my hagwon because they own me 1.2 million won” calls down to about one per week.

However, as you have alluded to above, a good portion of those people get upset when I say, “Here’s the firm’s account number, please deposit USD 10,000 as a down payment against fees.” They respond by complaining, “but you are a lawyer! You have a duty to help me, even if I can’t afford it.” Ummmm…no.

After a pause, during which I am usually struggling to maintain my inner calmness, I give the standard reply of, “If you are ready to pay upwards of USD 10,000 plus costs and expenses to attempt (whether successful or not) to get your 1.2 million one, I’ll be happy to send you our account number, otherwise please file a grievance with the labor board or the Ministry of Labor. You may want to get a Korean friend to take you to the court to file a small claims case. In any event, I’ve got to get back to my USD 150,000,000 contract dispute where the clients are paying a couple of million dollars, without question or complaint, to take care of them.. buh-bye.”

93 knoxfielding June 29, 2009 at 2:58 am

This must be the most Dave’s like thread I’ve seen on this blog in several years. All the old themes seem to be working. First, there’s the ‘am I/ or am I not a professional’ rant which sometimes goes by the name of, ‘am i a professor at this university’ rant or sometimes calls itself the ‘am I a real teacher” rant on various blogs and forums as often as pigeons in the city. As someone suggessted, this is a matter of insecurity. Does a plumber, eletrician, engineer, or doctor ever consider whether he is a professional. These questions get raised so much by EFL teachers in Korea because the answer is no for almost all of them. EFL in this country, in case you haven’t noticed, is a ratbag of 23-28 year old unmarried hagwon princesses, Ms. Key study rooms, McEnglish franchises, university factory classrooms, society housewives/ businessmen mucking away some time, and middle/high school students who are saddled with stress equivalent to Wallstreet brokers as they try to eekout a few exta TOEIC points. If you call yourself a professional EFL teacher in S.Korea, you either don’t where you are, have a good sense of humor, or are too proud to realize the alternative.

The other standby theme I noticed was brought to you by G. Bevers. This is the ‘guess how great my turds are’ spiel. Over the years, vast numbers throughout internetland, like Gbevers, have volunteered information on their lenghy vacations, salaries, apartments, transportation, medicalplan, savings, etc…all without being asked. Why? My guess is that this gets back theme 1. If you don’t have a legitimate profession after 10 years of doing a thing, then it’s good to compensate by disclosing a bunch of other fringe things.

I’ve been doing EFL here about 8 years and am convinced the bad points are about tied with the good. It’s a job. This thread has been cathartic for me. Let’s not have it happen again.

94 dinkus maximus June 29, 2009 at 4:22 am

The issue seems to be more about the “caste system” among waygooks in Korea. Car and Koehler are Brahmins, while hakwon teachers are a various forms of Pariah. It’s also the “newbie” mentality that irks the Brahmins. They’ve been in Korea long enough so that they begin to acclimatise to the point where they wake up in the morning and put on ajeoshi shoes before they go to work. They are bitter because most of the clothes they brought with them (ten or more years ago before IMF) have been replaced by WHO.A.U. or, at best, Jack Nichols. The sleeves are too short, and the folks back home are no longer interested in care packages. Brahmins are well accustomed to the taste of kimchee, because their wives have it in the fridge. They therefore are tired of hearing Pariahs discuss it in mass groupings as they learn the ways of chopsticks in Hannam-dong area kalbi jibs. Brahmins speak the language, understand the culture, and have adapted, while Pariahs are still in the honeymoon flag-waving phase, basking in every novelty while still refusing to part with things they love from home (including marijuana).

Brahmins dislike Pariahs for the same reasons Indi bands dislike big record labels. Many Brahmins wish they were the only white people in Korea, and when they see tons of other white people acting like douche bags, it almost as if someone’s dog took a poop on ones lawn after sniffing around for a year, and then toddling off to Thailand. Brahmins are jealous of sleeves that go past the wrist. Pariahs exit and enter Korea on the short bus, and might as well be picture taking minions wearing matching red hats.

The entire waygook caste system in Korea is saturated, as Korea is an other world vortex of self-loath and insecurity, which stems from its history and culture. Enter at your own risk.

95 Benji 1422 June 29, 2009 at 4:29 am

Carr – you had a chance to make something of yourself and help people…. and be something other than a corporate weenie who looks down on people less fortunate than yourselves, but you totally blew it. You revealed yourself as a tool in these past few posts and in a sense discredited yourself to the entire community. When your job is moved or downsized, you will realize that your dreams of grandiosity and bringing Jamba Juice to Korea were for naught. It’s too bad because from your writing you actually have the intelligence and chops to make a difference or at least carve out a niche which is productive for society and people… but instead you are wrapped up in your own egotism and delusions.

96 Granfalloon June 29, 2009 at 7:21 am

Wow, this thread got bitter something fierce while I was sleeping.

97 Linkd June 29, 2009 at 7:38 am

Indeed.

You have me partially convinced, Granfalloon, but I think I’ll drop it here, unless there’s a subsequent resurgence of dispassionate interest in semantics.

98 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 29, 2009 at 7:39 am

Here’s the deal: I don’t believe that corporations are bad because they’re all corporationy ‘n stuff. In fact, I believe they are good because they demonstrably allow people to improve their lives. Probably the corporation is one of the top 10 inventions of humanity, actually. So there’s no shame in being a corporate lawyer, just as there’s no shame in being a personal-injury lawyer.

I don’t “look down on” English teachers (at least, originally I didn’t, before I had the hundreds of experiences just like this one). I just can’t help you, for a wide variety of reasons not attributable to me (but mostly because I can’t both help English teachers and eat), and am well and truly sick of being bitten and kicked at because I can’t help you. Your problems, nearly all of your own making, are not my responsibility. Sorry if that makes you feel bad, but the hell with all of you.

99 r.rac June 29, 2009 at 8:06 am

OMFG I might actually start to agree with Brendon. Yeah those idiots who think they are still in BFE Canada/US, who don’t do their homework regarding hagwons, think it’s ok to do weed, and do stupid things like mail themselves weed, don’t deserve your help. It’s called personal responsibility.

But what about the people who did their due diligence and still wind up getting screwed here, don’t they deserve some of your help? The horror stories about people getting caught in the system through no fault of their own, like who get punched by a drunk ajosshi for example and are held because the police never listen to the foreigner, they need someone like you, maybe not to take on their case, but to at least point them in the right direction. That’s where I have a beef with you. Law firms in the US find pro bono work as a social obligation, I think a little of that from you would go a long way to helping out your fellow expat. You have a great talent as shown by what you’ve gotten on the Korean markets (PLEASE GET THE IPHONE MY WIFE WANTS ONE SO BADLY!!!) it’s time to pay a little of it back.

100 Richardx June 29, 2009 at 8:38 am

I just wanted to be comment #100
what can I say, I have no life!!!!!

101 KrZ June 29, 2009 at 8:40 am

Why do you need Brendon’s overpriced help? I had a Korean public defender fight my extradition and he did quite a good job. I gave him a nice little envelope on the side to ensure extra effort and I think it was well worth it. He did about as much work for $1200 as my attorney here in the US did for $40,000. ㄱ_ㄱ

102 John from Daejeon June 29, 2009 at 9:06 am

#84, click through the 19 slides and you’ll find that that is the only slide listing in Mississippi, most happen to be located in the Midwest and Southeast. Slide 3 presents a lot of listings representing Minneapolis. The Tampa region of Florida is also well represented in slide 9.

Of course, many of them will require some touch-up work, but some are good rental investments along with a few diamonds in the rough for those just starting out.

103 Mr. Myxlplyx June 29, 2009 at 9:11 am

But what about the people who did their due diligence and still wind up getting screwed here, don’t they deserve some of your help?

Uh, the same thing that happens to Koreans who get screwed over. Korea has a rough system, especially for people who do not have a strong social network to fall back on. That is part of the risks of living in Korea, just like California has earthquakes or southern China has bird flu.

As for pro bono work, I do believe Carr’s firm does plenty of that. Although it is pretty rare for them to choose English teachers for that help. There are a lot of people in Korea who have far bigger problems than most English teachers’ contract disputes or marijuana issues.

Re: dinkus maximus, #94 — Funny. Not sure how much I agree, but painfully funny.

Is Mizar5 the proud new owner of the Nulji disease? It seems like there is always one over-posting nutter on this website. If that nutter should leave, then his mental illness (inability to read, ranting, overposting, hypersensitivity) gets picked up by someone else. From Nulji to Bluejives to baduk to wjk (apologies if I missed anyone or got them mixed up)…. Is Mizar5 that next one to start drinking the crazy juice?

104 Robert Koehler June 29, 2009 at 9:21 am

The issue seems to be more about the “caste system” among waygooks in Korea. Car and Koehler are Brahmins, while hakwon teachers are a various forms of Pariah.

Looking at my last paycheck, I’m not sure if “Brahmin” is an appropriate description.

105 babotaengi June 29, 2009 at 9:28 am

Hilarious that people here are still expecting help in criminal and civil law cases from a corporate lawyer, even after he explained the myriad reasons why he can’t do it, just because he’s a foreigner. There are legal services in Seoul. A couple of them even give advice/assistance for free.

I’ll give you some free legal advice: if you get punched by a drunk ajeosshi, either turn the other cheek or clip him in return, but either way get the fuck out of Dodge. This ain’t Kansas, Toto.

106 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 29, 2009 at 9:29 am

The horror stories about people getting caught in the system through no fault of their own, like who get punched by a drunk ajosshi for example and are held because the police never listen to the foreigner, they need someone like you maybe not to take on their case but to at least point them in the right direction.

Again, what part of I am a corporate lawyer do you not understand? What part of I am not admitted in Korea as an attorney, so I cannot inveigle the police do you not understand? (I’m guessing “inveigle”, actually.) And if your premise is that nobody listens to a foreigner, why do you insist that a foreigner corporate lawyer attend to your police problem? What use would it be?

As for pro bono, I’ve done plenty and continue to do plenty. But I choose who gets my services free, not you.

107 Mr. Myxlplyx June 29, 2009 at 9:29 am

Re: #104 – Your sleeves are plenty long. And your wife does not make kimchi. Nor have I ever seen you wear ajeoshi shoes. But I thought it was still pretty funny.

Are there people in the West who still cannot use chopsticks? I mean not so much old people, but young. I thought Asian food was mainstream enough in North America (and Western Europe?) that most people could use chopsticks these days. No?

108 aaronm June 29, 2009 at 10:17 am

The stoopidest part of this whole saga is that Robert has chosen to respond to it. Possible defamation, I mean, come on, once you fleece the poor old E2 for his savings (probably no more than 10 grand), you’d probably come across as a bigger dick on the net than 99% of the DESL posters. The OP has a point, Carr can come across as a cantankerous cunt at the best of times (I like to imagine him drowning puppies whilst lighting cigars with 100 000 won cheques), but it is largely an online persona built both by his own ego and jealousy spawned of the very expat caste system that an earlier poster mentioned. Heck, I see it in action all the time down here in Indonesia where I wish my lowly analysts role was commensurate with the kind of packages that my associates in oil/gas and mining receive here.

109 WeikuBoy June 29, 2009 at 10:48 am

“After a pause, during which I am usually struggling to maintain my inner calmness, I give the standard reply of, “If you are ready to pay upwards of USD 10,000 plus costs and expenses to attempt (whether successful or not) to get your 1.2 million one, I’ll be happy to send you our account number, otherwise please file a grievance with the labor board or the Ministry of Labor. You may want to get a Korean friend to take you to the court to file a small claims case.” — Jeff Harrison @92[emphasis added]

I would imagine your words I emphasized above are all the lowly dumbass teacher wants to hear. If you’d add the phone number or location of their local labor board, or ministry office, or small claims court (which info you should have on hand in any case), or better yet an English-language website (if any) with that info, you’d be heroes to the unwashed mass of untouchables in this land.

Now, was that really so difficult? It’s nothing to get worked up about.

110 SomeguyinKorea June 29, 2009 at 11:08 am

Some people are moochers. They won’t lift a finger to help themselves.

Trouble with your boss? Call the fricking Labor Board and leave guys like Brendon Carr alone. Would you like being hit for free English lessons 20 times a day?

111 Jeff Harrison June 29, 2009 at 11:43 am

WeiguBoy,

Don’t misunderstand. Although I wouldn’t claim to speak for Brendon, I am fairly confident that he would agree with me that there are two types of English teacher calls. One type is the person who demands that I work for him, tells me I have an obligation to do so, tells me that I have a professional obligation to work for free or reduced fees if he cannot afford the rates that every other client in our firm pays, and gets angry and abusive when I suggest alternatives. The other type is the respectful caller that says he’s got a problem, explains the problem, accepts my explanation as to why it is not economically practical for him if my firm takes on his work, and thanks me for the alternate suggestions.

It boils down to a sense of entitlement. Some people think they are entitled to free or reduced legal services. Other people do not have that sense of entitlement and understand the situation. Unfortunately, the first type outnumber the second type by about 10 to 1.

You don’t walk into a restaurant and say, “I’m hungry, but your soup is overpriced, so give it to me free or at a reduced price.” I don’t get to go to the Lotte Department Store and say, “I like that watch, but it is overpriced, so give it to me free or at a reduced price.” Do you think that that English teacher would say, “Sure, no problem,” if a mother walked up to him on the street and said, “My son/daughter has a right to learn English, and I want you have to teach my child, but you private teaching rates are too expensive, so you have to do it for free or and a greatly reduced price.” Or, better yet, ” I can’t go to a kimbab restaurant and demand that they make me an off-menu hamburger and then give it to me for free or a reduced price.”

A law firm is a business. It’s purpose is to make money. If you don’t like what the firm charges, then you can go elsewhere. Also, certain firms handle certain types of cases. If my firm doesn’t handle your type of case, there are others that do.

I have no problem taking calls from people that understand this and thank me for pointing them somewhere else. However, there are far more English teacher callers that either can’t understand this or ignore it and feel that I somehow owe them something, and I can’t stand those calls.

112 Darth Babaganoosh June 29, 2009 at 11:46 am

Hilarious that people here are still expecting help in criminal and civil law cases from a corporate lawyer, even after he explained the myriad reasons why he can’t do it, just because he’s a foreigner. There are legal services in Seoul. A couple of them even give advice/assistance for free.

To add to that, you can file a small claims suit for less than W200K, sometimes much less than, if you do it yourself; or if you really needed help there is the Korean Legal Aid corporation that provides free legal services. Free advice from the Seoul Foreigners Help Center or the Seoul Bar Association, plus cheap (file yourself) or free (KLAC files for you) small claims lawsuits.

Why get on Carr’s case? He can’t help you, and you don’t need his help anyway.

113 Darth Babaganoosh June 29, 2009 at 11:48 am

BTW, I’ve filed two of my own small claims suits myself, and won both times (and got my money). No lawyer needed. Anyone wanting a lawyer for a small claims suit is an idiot. You’ll pay more in fees than for what the suit is for.

114 yuna June 29, 2009 at 11:53 am

and am well and truly sick of being bitten and kicked at because I can’t help you. Your problems, nearly all of your own making, are not my responsibility. Sorry if that makes you feel bad, but the hell with all of you.

Hmm. This sounds so familiar. Let me play Dr Ruth (or Dr Phil): Brendon, I think you are acting like a typical guy and the English teachers are acting like typical women i.e. I don’t think that they would feel so angry if you pretended to be a little sympathetic even if you couldn’t give any actual help. Instead, you’re just being brutally honest about the situation like a typical guy, because you are tired of being harangued by not one but multiple over the years.
It’s something he is not interested in doing, and the teachers should be aware of that somehow before they approach him without knowing this and getting their hands bitten and their feelings hurt. I think they will be far better served by an English speaking Korean law professional who tries to see things from their side.

115 Linkd June 29, 2009 at 11:53 am

Maybe you really could pretend to be an engineer, accountant or actuary.

116 SomeguyinKorea June 29, 2009 at 11:55 am

“As for pro bono, I’ve done plenty and continue to do plenty.”

Yes, I can attest to that. You once gave me free legal advice on a non-work/marijuana smuggling related matter (you answered a couple of my questions, actually) . I publicly thank you for that.

As much as I bust your balls from time to time, it’s all in jest.

117 WeikuBoy June 29, 2009 at 12:01 pm

“Although I wouldn’t claim to speak for Brendon, I am fairly confident that he would agree with me that there are two types of English teacher calls.”

Ah so, I wouldn’t have imagined the first type of call you related. Still, I would think that having at hand info about Korean Legal Aid, the Seoul Foreigners Help Center, and the Seoul Bar Ass’n (all of which I’ve just now heard for the first time courtesy of Darth) as well as local small claims court and labor board info would get you off the phone (and back to The Hole!) much quicker.

118 SomeguyinKorea June 29, 2009 at 12:09 pm

Jeff Harrison,
Exactly.

Darth Babaganoosh,

Also one of the points I was trying to make. A simple search on Google will point to the right lawyers and government agencies.

119 Robert Koehler June 29, 2009 at 12:30 pm

I mean, come on, once you fleece the poor old E2 for his savings (probably no more than 10 grand)

Hey, I could use 10 grand!

(No, I don’t actually intend to sue the guy)

120 gbevers June 29, 2009 at 12:33 pm

Knoxfielding wrote (#93)

The other standby theme I noticed was brought to you by G. Bevers. This is the ‘guess how great my turds are’ spiel. Over the years, vast numbers throughout internetland, like Gbevers, have volunteered information on their lenghy vacations, salaries, apartments, transportation, medicalplan, savings, etc…all without being asked. Why? My guess is that this gets back theme 1. If you don’t have a legitimate profession after 10 years of doing a thing, then it’s good to compensate by disclosing a bunch of other fringe things.

Is that how it appeared?

No one asked for your opinion either, Knoxfielding, which means you volunteered it. In fact, anyone who writes on these blogs are volunteering information.

I did not write what I wrote to brag about anything. I wrote it to show that there are many benefits to teaching English in Korea, including the ability to save money, which many people do not seem to recognize. Your claim that teaching English to non-native speakers is not a “legitimate profession” shows your ignorance since teaching English to non-native speakers requires a lot of study and experience to be able to do well.

To be a good teacher, you should not only know the rules of grammar, pronunciation, and discourse, but you also need to know how to teach and practice those rules with students who have a limited ability to understand the language you are using to teach them. Add to that the ability to engage students, not an easy task when you are dealing with college freshmen who could care less about learning English.

Teaching English to non-native speakers is definitely a legitimate profession, and students can spot an amateur from a mile away. Your seeing it as just a job suggests that you are an amateur.

People should strive to do work they are good at and enjoy doing instead of doing something they consider to be just a job. Why would you work here for eight years doing something that you consider to be just a job? No ambition or desire to excel? I think attitude has a lot to do with deciding if something is just a job or profession.

121 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 29, 2009 at 12:38 pm

Grr. I just got another of these useless calls. Some guy in Kwangju rang me up to talk about how a dispute over $2000 turned into a chest-bumping match, followed by the caller having struck the ajosshi with whom he was beefing. When I tried to explain to the caller how he is now facing the certainty of giving over $2000 to that guy he hit (because the guy who got punched is always a victim no matter how much he deserved it) , the caller kept cutting me off with various “mitigating factors” he imagines excuse the behavior. Jeez — if you’re going to call for advice, at least listen to me. If I’m telling you the reason you hit someone doesn’t matter, it’s because my experience tells me there are very few opportunities to persuade any Korean judge that your wrongful conduct is excused by someone else’s wrongful conduct.

Also, if you’re in Kwangju, don’t call the lawyers in Seoul. Kwangju is four hours away by car or train. It’s like calling someone in New York City for your legal trouble in Baltimore.

122 SomeguyinKorea June 29, 2009 at 1:08 pm

Clearly, an email would have been more appropriate.

123 Jeff Harrison June 29, 2009 at 1:13 pm

WeikuBoy,

Unfortunately, as I said above, that first type of caller outnumbers they second type by about 10 to 1. Seriously. No exaggeration. It is absolutely shocking that there are so many people with a sense of entitlement who actually become angry or otherwise upset when I try to explain reality to them. There are always excuses why they can’t go to the labor board, why they can’t get to a courthouse, why they can’t do this or that, all of which boil down to “I can’t be bothered and I insist that you do it for free or cheaply.”

124 Jeff Harrison June 29, 2009 at 1:17 pm

Brendon, Just got off the phone with that guy myself.

Damn. I wish I hadn’t deleted the paragraph I wrote about it wherein in said that I let a usually 3 minute phone call go on for 28 minutes and 49 seconds because it was my lunch hour and I was amused by this thread. 25 minutes of me explaining that a corporate firm in Pusan can’t help him with criminal matters in Kwangju, listening to numerous “Yes, but…..” statements, and repeatedly (at least 10 times) advising him to get a Korean friend to translate and go to a criminal lawyer in Kwangju.

125 WeikuBoy June 29, 2009 at 2:02 pm

[WeikuBoy having just returned from his customary three martini tuna fish sandwich (but followed by fifteen fabulous minutes of stretching out on my bed with the aircon running full blast at my apartment near my school so eat your heart out you corporate lawyer-types) lunch, the Court resumed its afternoon session:]

“Also one of the points I was trying to make. A simple search on Google will point to the right lawyers and government agencies.”

Simple for you (all) perhaps, but still rather baffling for those people who are: a) new to Korea, and b) not lawyers. I have a hunch that even for someone who is a lawyer and isn’t necessarily new to Korea, the knowledge that Korea has small claims courts which apparently function like those in the U.S. would come as surprising news. Purely hypothetically speaking.

126 Wedge June 29, 2009 at 2:09 pm

This is entertaining reading for a late lunch break. Someone calls Marmot a “Brahmin”… no offense to Marmot, but that’s one of the last images I have of the guy (and I hope it’s mutual). And then Jeff comes in with a zinger on the sense of entitlement of 90% these wankers–now I can see why BC hates their asses. The moochers of society, they are.

127 Above Criticism June 29, 2009 at 2:11 pm

I’ve had (touch wood) no dealings with the law here, and I’m no longer an English teacher, but I’d guess that two key reasons some teachers feel entitled to special treatment are:
1) The general perception that lawyers are overpaid, and perhaps especially so in Korea where Korean-speaking foreigners are at such a premium, and
2) A strong feeling held by many, but by no means all, greenhorn English teachers that Koreans are invariably and incorrigibly trying to do them over. In such circumstances, they might feel, it behoves the Western whitey lawyer to show some solidarity with their “plight.”

128 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 29, 2009 at 2:34 pm

[WeikuBoy having just returned from his customary three martini tuna fish sandwich (but followed by fifteen fabulous minutes of stretching out on my bed with the aircon running full blast at my apartment near my school so eat your heart out you corporate lawyer-types) lunch, the Court resumed its afternoon session:]

Glad you enjoyed it. I live about 7 minutes from my office, and can go home whenever I want. Technology makes it so I can work from the office or from home, since basically what I produce is always delivered in the media of e-mail or a phone call. There are a lot of benefits to this mobile-professional lifestyle:

Broke your leg and need a month off because you can’t put pants on? No problem.

The Super Bowl is on and you want to watch at home with no pants on? No problem.

Been drinking all night and don’t know where your pants are? No problem.

129 yuna June 29, 2009 at 2:42 pm

In Brit English Pants mean men’s underwear i.e. underpants (usually the unfashionable ones that are not boxer shorts)

130 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 29, 2009 at 2:58 pm

I only wear the fashionable boxer shorts-type underpants — $125 a pair from Brooks Brothers (on sale now for $93.25!). But the buttons are made from mother-of-pearl. Because they’re so expensive, I like to go without trousers as much as possible so people can tell what a man of refinement I am.

131 gbevers June 29, 2009 at 3:04 pm

Lawyers’ bitching about English teachers’ bitching. Is there no paradox there?

I wonder what lawyers would do if they got screwed (not the good kind) as often as English teachers seem to get screwed here in Korea? Are lawyers ever the screwee?

I think there is probably a lot of misunderstanding and lame bitching going on among English teachers in Korea, but I think there is probably a lot of legitiment bitching, too. I do not think Brendon is at all obligated morally, or whatever, to give cheap legal advice to English teachers, but why does he always have to bitch about English teachers asking him for it? If it is such a burden on him, why doesn’t he stop being such a saltyass and hire a secretary to screen his calls? Just curious.

132 Sperwer June 29, 2009 at 3:04 pm

Been drinking all night and don’t know where your pants are? No problem.

Was that YOU in front of the GS Tower (next to “anma town”) in Seollung trying to flag down a cab with your gear at 4 AM the other night? I guess you don’t have teleportation in your tech repertoire yet?

133 Arghaeri June 29, 2009 at 3:04 pm

Brahmins aren’t jealous fo short sleeves they can afford made to measure.

134 Sperwer June 29, 2009 at 3:09 pm

I wonder what lawyers would do if they got screwed (not the good kind) as often as English teachers seem to get screwed here in Korea? Are lawyers ever the screwee?

Since foreign lawyers can only work here as employees of Korean employers, and are infinitely more likely to be prosecuted if they try to do otherwise than moonlighting Engrishee tutors, they are by definition screwed; they just get paid a lot more to be cigar store touts for their masters.

135 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 29, 2009 at 3:09 pm

Was that YOU in front of the GS Tower (next to “anma town”) in Seollung trying to flag down a cab with your gear at 4 AM the other night? I guess you don’t have teleportation in your tech repertoire yet?

If you’re talking about Thursday, it could have been me. But it was 9:30 p.m. and I still had custody of my pants at that time.

136 yuna June 29, 2009 at 3:10 pm

If it is such a burden on him, why doesn’t he stop being such a saltyass and hire a secretary to screen his calls?

what’s a salty ass? did you mix up your Korean expression of being a cheapskate (짠돌이) with English?

137 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 29, 2009 at 3:13 pm

Since foreign lawyers can only work here as employees of Korean employers, and are infinitely more likely to be prosecuted if they try to do otherwise than moonlighting Engrishee tutors, they are by definition screwed; they just get paid a lot more to be cigar store touts for their masters.

Will you stop with the “cigar store Indian” routine already? That may have been the experience people tried to foist off on you from 1996 to 1998, but it hasn’t been like that for me at all — and I would guess not for anyone else for at least 10 years.

We do get screwed on the income, though. I am sure that my income will double in the very first year after the legal market opens. The prevailing wage at the international law firms which aren’t allowed to operate here yet is much higher than the Korean firm owners are willing to pay their underlings.

138 gbevers June 29, 2009 at 3:14 pm

By the way, nothing is more bitchworthy than dealing with college freshmen in Korea. Don’t get me started.

Also, it should be legitimate, not legitiment.

139 gbevers June 29, 2009 at 3:17 pm

Yes, Yuna, I did. I was going to write cheapass, but decided to add a little flavor.

140 Sperwer June 29, 2009 at 3:21 pm

it hasn’t been like that for me at all — and I would guess not for anyone else for at least 10 years

OK, but it’s only been 5 years since I traded in my deerskin pants and eagle feather bonnet; and, btw, false consciousness is truly a wonderful thing.

141 hitest June 29, 2009 at 3:54 pm

I have been reading The Marmot’s Hole for close to three years now, and I must say I have never gotten the impression that the blog is anti-English teacher, rather anti-idiot, albeit, many English teacher’s here may fit more readily into the latter rather than the former category.

Unfortunately, incompetent teachers may be over-represented as a cohort here in Korea, but that may be a consequence of how easily the title, ” English teacher”, is handed out. Most English teachers here are not English teachers, rather teaching assistants, a title which many still fail to qualify for since they are simply English speakers and have no formal teacher training or assisting teacher training.

I have a B.Sc and a B.Ed with 15 years teaching experience, and I would consider myself to be a licensed, professional teacher. I may be teaching outside of my specialty area, and would quite readily admit that a B.A, English major, with a B.Ed in elementary education and a specialty in TESOL would be more qualified to fill my position, which is why I am happy to work with my Korean co-teacher whose specialty is elementary English education.

I take exception to the idea that anyone can teach, because quite obviously, if learning is a prerequisite outcome of teaching having been done, too few English teachers can teach. Actually most learning seems to happen despite the efforts of the teachers. This has been my own experience as a student as well.

It is easy to categorize all doctors as megalomaniacs, all lawyers as dishonest and greedy, and all teachers as incompetent. I doubt anyone became a doctor or lawyer, or a professional of any sort, without a few good professional teachers helping along the way.

Of course, all you self-made people out there can hurl a handful of stones if you please. Doesn’t mean that each finds a worthy mark, especially if you are not a professional stone thrower.

142 Linkd June 29, 2009 at 4:07 pm

TLDR warning: likely to be found long, boring and semantic

Granfalloon’s response was a good one, and I am partially won over. But there are still a couple of things bothering me. The first is output – what the professional produces.

Architects, engineers, builders and surveyors must be able to read one another’s work. It enables the system to function. I could come up with an excellent system for rendering a building drawing, but without the network effects of a shared body of knowledge, my new system isn’t much good. The best thing about the 4 standard accounting statements is that other accountants, investors, lawyers and analysts know what they mean, and that shared knowledge is necessary for many systems to function. Again, I could come up with a different system for illustrating a firm’s financial condition, but it wouldn’t allow anyone to compare that firm to other firms that don’t use my system. Police, lawyers and judges similarly rely on each other’s paperwork outputs, and even their personal actions (how a search is to be conducted is an arbitrary regulation, but standardization is still needed).

It’s a little stickier in the medical field, where there is plenty of leeway for personal judgment, but the complexity of the field and the large volume of knowledge needed for surgeons, anesthesiologists, nurses, paramedics and pathologists to even communicate effectively with each other I believe clearly justifies the establishment of professional associations and licensing requirements. There may be several ways to treat a particular wound, but somehow the whole medical system has to operate as a system. One problem with the DiCaprio character in Catch Me If You Can (what Darth says he can do) is that he was unable to communicate with other medical professionals.

Some jobs need to become professionalized as technology advances and specialization increases. It was possible for amateurs to slap up most structures at one time (in my grandfather’s day, farmers in treeless Saskatchewan ordered entire pre-packaged houses from the Sears catalog, and nailed them together themselves). These days there is a clearer need (perhaps largely thanks to litigious lawyers?) for rigorously trained and licensed professionals to be in charge of various aspects of construction, so that the physical outputs of their work are useful to the other professionals whose own work articulates with those outputs.

I clearly have to yield the point on training, because y’all are correct that current teacher training does mirror the training programs of other professions.

But that brings me to the second thing that still bothers me – the concept of “capture”. It goes like this: There is typically only one employer for teachers: the government. Teachers form unions to increase their bargaining power with the government. One thing that it behooves a union to do is prevent the employer from hiring outside the union. Since all teachers within the existing workforce have been through the same BEd training program, it makes sense for them to insist to the government that only teachers who have been through the same program be allowed to teach. The union has ‘captured’ the regulatory regime controlling entrance to their turf. And I’m not sure that there are any obvious systemic benefits, because no other profession articulates with what the teachers are doing.

My CELTA course was rigorous, if only a month long. Any reason I shouldn’t be allowed to teach ESL at a public school in Canada? I have a Masters in Biochemistry. Any reason I shouldn’t be allowed to teach science? I have an MBA – unfortunately, VERY unfortunately, there seem to be rather few public schools with any interest in offering those sorts of courses. When I say “anyone can do it”, this is what I’m talking about. Why should a BEd exclude me, and does that exclusion benefit the students, or the existing unionized BEd-holding teachers?

So, in sum, I’m halfway there, and will henceforth cease insisting that teaching is not a profession. But I’m still not convinced that it IS a profession. I agree that the way it is currently set up seems to mirror the professional training regimes of other professions, but I suspect that such training may be more a result of union capture, rather than a genuine oversight function played by a professional association, and therefore, that the current BEd training may not be all that essential to producing a ‘professional teacher’.

143 congee June 29, 2009 at 4:27 pm

Hey Brendon, are you a lawyer?

I think its time we were all treated to another recap of your wonderful resume.

144 hitest June 29, 2009 at 4:40 pm

Linkd: said “….the current BEd training may not be all that essential to producing a ‘professional teacher’.”

Painfully, I must agree that many of the essential skills of teaching are, in some sense, unteachable, and that most of what I was taught during my B.Ed ( and the half of my M.Ed for that matter:/) seemed of little practical use. The practical skills, (planning, time management subject knowledge etc.) I had acquired simply by being a student. The B.Ed program is more of an extended job interview in my opinion. People can be weeded out of the crowd during the two year program if they fail to exhibit, or learn the personal skills necessary to teach or if they are problematic in other ways.

Let’s face it, to capture the attention of a group of teenagers with the attention span of an eraser, who are use to 150 channels of satellite TV, having the internet at the beck and call, one needs a bit of a dog and pony show. Students demand to be entertained and cuddled. Right or wrong, a good teacher is in part, an actor, a comedian, a leader, a mentor and facilitator. Not things easily taught except through life experiences.

Another function of the professional licensing body is to keep track of and communicate the professional standing of a teacher member: their credentials, experience, performance, legal status, achievements etc. Teacher’s unions are not necessarily the regulating bodies although as you mentioned, they do seek to protect the privilege of their members’ right to practice within the profession.

Anyway, I am beating a tired old horse to death instead of finishing my open class lesson plans.

Cheers.

145 SomeguyinKorea June 29, 2009 at 4:49 pm

hitest,

Oh, I’m most definitely qualified to teach ESL/EFL. I’ve spent many years in grad school studying pedagogy, language acquisition theory, discourse analysis, and a bunch of other fascinating stuff that is totally useless when dealing with Korean college freshmen (well, discourse analysis does come handy from time to time thanks to the amount of plagiarism that takes place at my university).

146 gbevers June 29, 2009 at 5:05 pm

Linkd (#142),

Is there some way you can get your “TLDR warning” to flash off and on in bright red?

147 Linkd June 29, 2009 at 5:12 pm

Odd you should ask, because every time I see “gbevers”, I see it exactly that way.

148 Granfalloon June 29, 2009 at 6:21 pm

Linkd:
I think we’ve found middle ground that we can both agree on (see, people? it’s not so hard!).

Teacher training is rapidly becoming a nightmare of bureaucracy and pointlessness, none of which benefits the students. I feel the unions are partly to blame for this. They’ve fought fiercely against the notion of teachers actually doing something productive during summer vacations, and have passed up a lot of opportunities to raise the bar (and salary) of teachers everywhere simply by refusing to budge on this point.

Ideally, a teacher should meet any and all criteria for being a professional. They should know how to structure and execute lessons that are specifically tailored to their students’ needs, in a way that a layman could never do. They should be able to identify learner problems before they happen. They should be able to elicit classroom interaction that will gradually lead to the learner outcomes, whatever they are. And they should be able to assess how well they’ve done this, and make amendments as needed.

In reality, there are teachers who couldn’t do any of the above if you put guns to their heads. Again, to echo an earlier point, assessing how a good a teacher is at teaching is a difficult process. And once you’ve identified a teacher as lousy, what then? Your school is shorthanded already. There isn’t exactly a line of people waiting to replace the bad eggs, whose jobs are union-protected anyway.

I could go on about the things wrong with public education all day. I think the fact that I’m willingly teaching as an unlicensed, non-certified, lumped-together-with-retards-who-call-Brendon Carr-with-stupid-questions teacher in Korea speaks for itself.

149 KrZ June 29, 2009 at 10:11 pm

Every single white man who has ever worked in Korea, including ever single white man in this thread, is a miserable, socially awkward, unqualified hack who couldn’t cut it in their home country and so trotted off to Asia in the hope that their mediocre intelligence and slothful work ethic would be treated with respect for the sole reason that they look somewhat different than the indigenous population.

150 seouldout June 29, 2009 at 10:16 pm

Amen.

151 Mizar5 June 29, 2009 at 10:17 pm

Ah religion.

152 gbevers June 29, 2009 at 10:29 pm

KrZ wrote (#149):

Every single white man who has ever worked in Korea, including ever single white man in this thread, is a miserable, socially awkward, unqualified hack who couldn’t cut it in their home country and so trotted off to Asia in the hope that their mediocre intelligence and slothful work ethic would be treated with respect for the sole reason that they look somewhat different than the indigenous population.

What about the Korean women? They are also a big incentive since none of us could have gotten laid back home.

153 Mizar5 June 29, 2009 at 10:46 pm

“Every single white man who has ever worked in Korea, including ever single white man in this thread, is a miserable, socially awkward, unqualified hack who couldn’t cut it in their home country and so trotted off to Asia in the hope that their mediocre intelligence and slothful work ethic would be treated with respect for the sole reason that they look somewhat different than the indigenous population.”

Indeed such folks would need to veer quite a bit off the beaten track to find a nation populated by their intellectual peers.

154 Granfalloon June 29, 2009 at 11:24 pm

. . . and we’re back to square one. Fun while it lasted, though.

155 Mizar5 June 29, 2009 at 11:50 pm

Isn’t that what a circle jerk is all about, Granfalloon?

156 Mizar5 June 30, 2009 at 12:03 am

KrZ: “Korea is in the top 4 for math, reading, and science skills internationally. Seems pretty tangible to me, though there should be a middle ground between the education provide here in Dumbfuckistan and that in Korea. “

Considering all the hours of cramming, you’d have to be a cretin not to be able to buy such “tangible” but primitive results. And nobody’s saying that Koreans are cretins, only that Koreans as a whole appear remarkably incapable of the ability to carry education beyond mere low-level rote memorization, which is why they look to America for its more sophisticated secondary education standards.

157 SomeguyinKorea June 30, 2009 at 12:05 am

“Every single white man who has ever worked in Korea, including ever single white man in this thread, is a miserable, socially awkward, unqualified hack who couldn’t cut it in their home country and so trotted off to Asia in the hope that their mediocre intelligence and slothful work ethic would be treated with respect for the sole reason that they look somewhat different than the indigenous population.”

I wonder what’s your story.

Not white, by the way.

158 Darth Babaganoosh June 30, 2009 at 12:10 am

I wonder what’s your story

Still stinging from getting his ass tossed to the curb by a Canadian chick.

159 NetizenKim June 30, 2009 at 12:34 am

Brendon Carr vs the Engrish teachers is great comedy.

160 tbonetylr June 30, 2009 at 1:07 am

Linkd… I thought you were leaving, tick tock tick tock.

gbeavers…That Dallas house does look nice, however it’s in Pleasant Grove (SE Dallas) which has the highest crime rate in Dallas while being in a predominately Hispanic and black area of town.

I asked Carr a long time ago about taking his name off the U.S.A. embassy website but he continues to keep it there (last time I checked) all while continuing to bitch.

Carr says…
“And yes, being on the Embassy list is a royal pain in the ass. The vast majority (like 99.99%) of people who call from that list are complete wastes of space.”

Read below and find out why Carr’s statement above must be a LIE!!!

Last time Carr told me he doesn’t control what’s on the list but he has had A LONG TIME to take steps to get his name off the list. I doubt the U.S.A. Embassy can keep his name on the list for years on end if Carr didn’t REALLY want it on there.

I call BULLSHIT on Carr, he likes his name on the list and getting calls from English Teachers. I even suggested that he put an asterisk by his name stating that he only defends employers and/or that he doesn’t do labor cases, but no, Carr gives me some stupid fucking excuse like the one I already mentioned, as though he doesn’t have any power. Okay fine Carr, you are nothing but a powerless “NITWIT.”

Again, last time I checked his name was on the list. If it’s still on the list then why doesn’t Carr once and for all contact (use those home/office communication methods) the U.S. Embassy and get them to take his name off the list? Sounds pretty simple to me, he ought to stop bitching/giving excuses?

161 dda June 30, 2009 at 2:22 am

I don’t get to go to the Lotte Department Store and say, “I like that watch, but it is overpriced, so give it to me free or at a reduced price.”

Many an ajumma does, though :-)

162 dda June 30, 2009 at 2:26 am

Still, I would think that having at hand info about Korean Legal Aid, the Seoul Foreigners Help Center, and the Seoul Bar Ass’n (all of which I’ve just now heard for the first time courtesy of Darth) as well as local small claims court and labor board info would get you off the phone (and back to The Hole!) much quicker.

Again, they’re busy lawyers, and not a public service…

163 dda June 30, 2009 at 2:36 am

@tbonetylr Did by any chance Brendon refuse to help you, in the past? You sound full of spite…

164 alec931 June 30, 2009 at 6:07 am

“LOL. someone with a blog roll of a few hundred daily visitors — how does that *effect* you? *Thank* about it.” – English teacher in Korea

LOL! And people here wonder why Koreans in Korea can’t speak good English ;)

165 KrZ June 30, 2009 at 7:13 am

That’s the English equivalent of the way young Koreans chat on the Internet.

166 mindmetoo June 30, 2009 at 7:47 am

wylies99… why am I not surprised? For a while over on Dave’s he was pestering me in email trying to get me to admit I was a former male teacher that made a pass at him. And then once on dave’s I posted an update about Joe (aka zenkimchi’s) lawsuit. He claimed I was Joe’s sock and got pissed off Joe wasn’t holding the hands of all Dave’s users on how to take their cases to the labor board. (Joe pointed out he had posted the information in several places already and anyone interested could find out rather quickly with a simple google search.)

He’s a real piece of work and best laughed at and then put on ignore.

167 hardyandtiny June 30, 2009 at 10:46 am

whatta buncha assholes

168 hitest June 30, 2009 at 10:59 am

Curious, that some people think it is a slight to suggest that people who are less-than-spectacular in their “home countries” choose to come to Korea where they can shine :) Is the message then, “Come to Korea because western losers are still better and more valued than the average Korean” ?

What kind of argument is this?

169 KrZ June 30, 2009 at 11:02 am

It’s not an argument, it’s a fantastic way to troll dorky expats, rousing them from their Charisma-man delusions, e.g. everyone who posts here.

170 Arghaeri June 30, 2009 at 11:07 am

Charisma, what charisma, please don’t make these unfounded allegations against me.

171 SomeguyinKorea June 30, 2009 at 12:58 pm

“It’s not an argument, it’s a fantastic way to troll dorky expats, rousing them from their Charisma-man delusions, e.g. everyone who posts here.”

Somebody here is most definitely delusional (and lacks a sense of irony, too).

172 dda June 30, 2009 at 4:45 pm

That’s the English equivalent of the way young Koreans chat on the Internet.

In both cases, it’s retarded.

173 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) June 30, 2009 at 6:05 pm

Again, last time I checked [Brendon Carr's] name was on the [US Embassy] list [of lawyers in Korea]. If it’s still on the list then why doesn’t Carr once and for all contact (use those home/office communication methods) the U.S. Embassy and get them to take his name off the list? Sounds pretty simple to me, he ought to stop bitching/giving excuses?

tbonetylr — You’re a fool. This statement of yours terrified me today, so I went looking for the Embassy’s lawyers’ list to see if it was indeed true that my name is on that list. On the PDF they make available, my name is not there. There used to be an HTML document somewhere where the Embassy gave my name and phone number, but I harangued them throughout 2007 demanding to be taken off the list. That page doesn’t exist any more. So your information is almost two years old.

Do. Not. Want.

174 seouldout June 30, 2009 at 6:09 pm

Whoa! That was an oversight. Thanks for letting us know about the clerical error. You’ve been re-added to the list.

Have a nice day.

175 Mizar5 June 30, 2009 at 8:52 pm

My college aged niece from Pusan (as I still Romanize it) will be coming to stay with us for the summer. I’ll need an English teacher for her. I’ve been making inquiries and it appears that I’ll probably have to recruit one from Korea. Any takers?

176 Linkd July 1, 2009 at 2:54 am

We need photos.

177 es1982 July 1, 2009 at 3:51 am

An ET from Korea?

Does that mean an NS currently living in Korea, or an ET of Korean extraction?

178 es1982 July 1, 2009 at 9:21 am

I’m not trying to be funny. I’m genuinely interested.

M.A. in TESOL, 20 years of classroom experience.
Can deliver lessons via Skype and Webcam.

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