A poll by the US edition of the KukminHanguk Ilbo revealed that 92% of Korean immigrants to Migukland still believe in the American Dream — higher than the 80% of all Americans who believe in The Dream according to a NYT/CBS poll in April.
What’s the significance of the American Dream? Well, Korean immigrants answered “a life of freedom” (33.7%), much higher than “children’s success” (17.2%) and “economic success” (15.6%).
That said, only 55% of Korean immigrants believed in the traditional view of the American Dream, namely, that if you work hard, you could become rich, even if you come to the country with nothing. Some 72% of Americans as a whole believe in this view.
Some 70% responded that they chose well to immigrate to the United States, and 66% said they won’t return to Korea after they retire.
Oh, and for their children marrying outside the tribe, 14% opposed it, 13% agreed with it, and 69% said they opposed it, but would permit it.
(HT to reader)
{ 101 comments… read them below or add one }
“Oh, and for their children marrying outside the tribe, 14% opposed it, 13% agreed with it, and 69% said they opposed it, but would permit it.”
I don’t know about the exact nuance of the wording of the 69%, but I suspect this isn’t that bad of a stat. Basically, 82% (69+13) of the parents would permit inter-racial marriages. I suspect that’s much higher than Koreans living in Korea. I’d be curious of how the answer would change though if the questions were more specific, e.g. “Do you mind if your children marry an African-American?”
Anyway, I’m looking forward to scroll past any comment that Netizen Kim might feel compelled to leave here.
What I have noticed is that first generation korean immigrants apear to be more socially conservative than Koreans still living in Korea. I have two theories as to why this may be. One is that perhaps that Korean as a whole has been becoming less conservative, yet when one emmigrates from Korea, they loose that influence and tend to stay as conservative as they were, while Korea society cotinues to change. The other is that it is a reaction to perserving ones self identity in the US, that they cling even more strongly to traditional social beliefs… …Or my entire premise could be wrong.
I should also point out only 441 people were interviewed for the survey.
I’d like to hear the East and West coast gyopos weigh in on this as well, but I think it’s pretty safe to say that most first-generation Korean parents are FAR more conservative than the native Koreans of a similar age. Why? Korea has developed, shit from the 80s to 90s, 90s to this decade. Could my father, a straight-up soju drinking ajosshi, imagine contemporary men who get perms and wear lipstick and **cry** when their girlfriends break up with them?
Fuckkkkkkkk no.
Same with my Mom. She can’t imagine girls in mini skirts, either. When my parents have gone back to Korea in recent years, they feel like it’s a foreign country. The Korea they remember from the mid-1980s is NOT the Korea of today. For sure. And while my parents have tried to become Americanized, I definitely think they’re more conservative than my relatives.
t_song… they are also more likely to be Christian. 72% vs. 25% in the motherland…
“Do you mind if your children marry an African-American?”
If this be the litmus test for something, then, no, I don’t mind Korean/black dating and welcome it. The guys better not be thugs, though. No authentic ebonics shall be used in my home!
“72%”??
Jesus, I’d think it were 90% at least! I’ve never seen Buddhist Koreans huddled together about Buddhist stuff. Mostly I see a lot of Ned Flanders type Koreans. Reminds me of Margaret Cho’s routine in which she makes fun of her brother: “Hey Margaret… Margaret…Margaret… have you accepted Jesus Christ as your one and only personal savior?” Hilarious. The Korean community in America is difficult to imagine without the churches, retreats, Christian radio broadcasts, choirs, missions, and such. Add to that the constant gossipping about how X son or daughter got Y score on the SATs and got into Z Ivy League university, and then you’ll have the jaemi kyopo experience near complete.
Imagine the spiritual train wreck that is Margaret Cho’s parents. They seem supportive of her now, though. So that’s good.
Of all the hundreds of Koreans I’ve ever met, I’ve known a total of only 2 Buddhist Koreans in my life. Somewhere in this mix would be a few Korean non-Christian gangster wannabes, an atheistic Korean punk girl with shaved bald head, and while I’m at it, a few happas, black/Korean and white/Korean mixed, of no church affiliation. Cool folks. I like Korean Christians too, but that’s another story. Oh yeah, there are quite a few happas I’ve met at church retreats too.
No, it’s a very astute and correct observation. Even my grandparents who are in Korea are more liberal in some ways than the Kyopo aunt who left 30 odd years ago. It’s called a “Kyopo Limbo”.
The ghost of Yi Soon-shin believes in the American dream.
That would be the Miju Hankuk Ilbo, not (Miju) Kukmin Ilbo – don’t think there is one.
My bad. Keep mixing up Hanguk Ilbo and Kukmin Ilbo. Have no idea why.
One of the most consistently annoying things about Korean diaspora is how they continue to refer to the native population as “foreigners.”
@Mizar
Is that more annoying than white people in the U.S. referring to minorities as “others” or “they” or wincing and looking befuddled when they hear me tell them that I’m from “America” and am an “American.” It’s reciprocal.
Considerably more so, I’d say, considering those terms are not derisive or exclusivist. As for wincing and looking befuddled, if that actually happened at all, which seems doubtful to say the least, it appears as if you’re just being hypersensitive.
Exclusivist? Yes. Derisive? No. Don’t be so hypersensitive.
” I suspect that’s much higher than Koreans living in Korea. ”
You’ll be surprised how wrong you are. I’m referring to the poll done couple of years ago in Korea.
I would like to see the word ‘conservative’ in print less, particularly in this kind of context. What does it mean here, if not racist, ethnocentric, and anti-integration?
And need we even get into how the mass of these so -called Christians are so comfortable in this racism?
Seen the world over, a shocking number of “christians” who don’t actually believe in ‘love thy neighbor’!
My aunt is the same way- born again hypocrite. People like her join these glorified social clubs called churches and only love the people in their exclusive group.
They are racist, bigotted, mean spirited, the lot.
This kind of “christianity” is just creating an exclusive club that looks down on outsiders.
Sound familiar?
#4 t_song:
I’d like to hear the East and West coast gyopos weigh in on this as well…
First of all, about this “American Dream” business.
I believe that we are currently entering into an age where every thinking American is reevaluating the meaning of this thing we call the “American Dream”. In the past, it meant having a big house in the suburbs, a nice paying job, two cars in the garage, a dog, and 2.5 kids. The Dream was largely defined in terms of materialistic success.
For our parents generation, the reasons for coming to America were largely economic and practical. From nothing, zero, nada, they became entrepreneurs, built businesses, forged communal ties, provided for their families, educated their children in a strange, confusing, and sometimes hostile land. The first generation deserves much credit for their hard work, sacrifices, and accomplishments.
They did a fine job in fulfilling the basic levels within the Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. I believe that their children, namely us, and later generations have to aim higher in terms of fulfilling Maslow’s Hierarchy as a community.
We need to define and further clarify who we are as Korean-Americans. We need to figure out who we are, what our guiding principles and values are, and what we stand for. From there we need to go further and re-define the meaning of “American” itself. This country is still an experiment. The definition of American is constantly in flux. We need to make our own unique mark on this definition.
We have to constantly grapple with the larger culture. We have to make our voices heard in the on-going culture wars and the national dialogue. There is a lot of unfinished business. It is a constant struggle and a fight. This country does not give you a choice but to fight. The founding motto was: Join or Die.
In our quest to re-define America, we must never forget that we are also of Korean heritage and a minority. Our relative economic success has been both a curse and a blessing. A comfortable middle-class existence breeds complacency; too many of our peers settle for mediocrity. As a minority there is always a constant tension between integration within an Empire (America is an Empire) and our reality as a people of a unique heritage. There is a tension between what Dr Martin Luther King, Jr called the “Dream” and what Malcolm X called the “Nightmare”. We need to balance the challenges of integration but also be faithful to our identity and pride as Koreans, a minority, and Asian-Americans. Out of this dialectic we forge a new synthesis. Our downfall is that we have largely excelled at one but not the other. From Model Minority we need to become a more Militant Minority.
The largely White male dominated power structure will try to impose upon you rules mostly on their terms and to your disadvantage. The White man has largely usurped the language and rhetoric of Political Correctness to fit his own agenda. He will call you racist, a bigot, and intolerant if you dare to exercise the freedom of defining your own identity according to your own reality, which is not his, and for daring to question “White makes Right” status quo. All minorities suffer from this aberration; the White standard is the reference point from we tend to subconsciously view all things and informs our biases. But in the Asian-American communities, it is practically a disease. We need to have a Copernican Revolution and declare that the world does not revolve around Whitey. For this the White man will declare you treasonous. No, I say that makes you quintessentially American.
Oh, and for their children marrying outside the tribe, 14% opposed it, 13% agreed with it, and 69% said they opposed it, but would permit it.
Now I will discuss the America’s Plurality Doctrine and Colorblind Liberal Multicultural Myths.
The definition of American is largely in two parts: legal and cultural. The legal component consists of citizenship, following the Constitution, civic duty, and paying taxes. Beyond this, there is no right or wrong outside of natural law. But the mainstream nativists would have you conform according to their own narrow, self-serving ideas regarding assimilation.
Whom you choose to marry is not an issue of right or wrong. The question of whether to marry a Korean or a non-Korean is not a matter of right or wrong.
Their is a certain bullshit liberal myth, however, that if we all just fuck each other indiscriminately into a brown/beige hue that the problems of racial intolerance will magically disappear. The idea is that if you’re part Irish and part Anglo, two groups who have traditionally hated each others guts (Gangs of New York), inter-ethnic hatred is canceled out. The fallacy of this argument though is that Mutt (Irish, British, Scottish, Welsh, Polish, Jewish, and some Native Indian blood) is just yet another ethnic group. America will always have different ethnic groups. We tolerate each other precisely because we are all different in color and creed. There is no tolerance in sameness. This is the central paradox of the Plurality Doctrine.
In reality, apart from the touchy-feel-goody colorblind liberal myth, interracial dating and marriage in America tends to stubbornly follow a pattern, an unspoken color code and a definite racial/gender hierarchy. At the top of the food chain is the White man and it is no wonder he peddles his bullshit so vigorously. But tell me, what ethnic strife and division is nullified by the union of Asian women and White men, that most common of interracial pairing in America? If anything it buttresses the White male patriarchy and reinforces White prejudices. The last thing America needs is a race of Michelle Malkins and Marcus Epsteins.
We would do well to build the Asian-American community, what the White man derisively calls the “tribe”. We ought to teach our children integrity, self-respect, character and honor according to the hard-won wisdom of our experience. We ought to build an Asian-American identity and community. As Koreans we ought to be marrying and dating other Asians such as Japanese, Chinese, Southeast Asians…in other words groups that we’ve traditionally had poor relations with. We ought to be building bridges and coalition with other minority groups, especially African-Americans. I believe we have more in common with Blacks than we may realize, as fellow minorities with a strong Christian tradition. If Asian-American women are dating and marrying White men almost exclusively then we Asian-American men should be doing the exact opposite.
This is The DREAM. Don’t be sheep.
What a bunch of crap NK so replete with circular logic and unsupported assertion that, given the time and trouble it would take to refute each fallacy one by one the only sane recourse is to reject it in its totality and just start from scratch.
That you may see colorblindness as a myth a reflection on you yourself rather than others around you. Your perverse need to perceive yourself as an oppressed minority indicates that you are bound to a slave mentality and use this as a cop out to evade personal responsibility. It’s very much akin to the Korean Peter Pan syndrome – you know, a nation of people who refuse to grow up and accept responsibility for their own destinies.
You posit some supposed white supremecist power elite labling you a racist in order to butress his own power. You really have a dark hyperactive imagination. Just imagine if you could harness that energy into something constructive. And all this nonsense about a “White standard” that is “the reference point from we tend to subconsciously view all things and informs our biases”. Honestly, where do you get this crap?
If you could only step out of your own skin (ie. mindset) long enough to see things without this overarching bias, you might be a lot more comfortable in your skin.
@Mizar
Yet another logical fallacy reference Mizar. Total: 357,215 and counting. But why don’t you ever make a point other than basically saying you disagree with someone? Can’t you ever state, hmmm, WHY you think they are wrong?
I always provide explicit explanations to support any of my assertions and expect the same intellectual honesty of others. If they fail to support their assertions, I hold their feet to the fire.
But your argument is a strawman. Are you saying that you agree that with NK’s delusionary statments about some great white cabal that has been put in place specifically to suppress Asian males while empowering everybody else? If not, what are you saying?
You fault me for indicating the incorrectness of NK’s claim that the sky is green by countering that I have presented no proof to the contrary?
Then are all statements then equally valid? If I assert that I see little green men under my bed, does a competent therapist attempt then attempt to disprove that assertion by presenting scientific data regarding melatonin in human skin? Or is would the more constructive, and therefore more proper approach involve stimulating introspection into the psychological mechanisms that lead me to believe that I see those little green men?
If I point out that there is no evidence of any great white conspiracy to keep the Asian guy down and no nepharious white power structure keeping minorities out of the congress, supreme court and white house or preventing them from rising to positions of prominence in industry, journalism, the media, the arts and so on, would that be enough to convince NK that he is OK in his Asian skin and need not invent elaborate excuses to fail?
NK has a perceptual problem, ie. stinking thinking, that no amount of ratiocination can resolve. He is a tortured soul who needs to abandon mentation for the realm of direct cognition – in other words, he needs to get over himself, beyond himself as an Asian male and liberate himself from the mental shackles that bind him to a life of self-imposed insecurity, insignificance and limitations.
Unlike wjk, he no mere caraciture but a real human being and I feel for him. Beneath it all, he’s brilliant and his biases are not entirely unselfconscious. The lengths he goes to to rationalize those biases means that he does retain some introspection and is just on the cusp of realization. The manner in which he vacillates between profound observations and tortured solipsistic mind farts leaves me wondering which side of him he’ll display next.
He brings to mind all the stories of Chan (Zen) masters who realized sudden enlightenment upon hearing a verse of scripture or imparted the realization with a sudden gesture like slapping someone’s face. He needs to be slapped, and slapped silly, and to shed the tortured mentation that holds him bound in delusion. And Mizar may be just the one to do it.
Marcus Epstein…wow what a frikken circus clown. Too goddamn shameful to put into words…I feel sorry for his parents
http://secretidentitiesbook.blogspot.com/2009/06/off-topic-wtf-marcus-epstein-wtf.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Epstein
Mizar5: “One of the most consistently annoying things about Korean diaspora is how they continue to refer to the native population as “foreigners.”
It may be annoying to hear Koreans call everyone else “foreigners”
However, I have had the experience of hearing Japanese business men and women who were in the US to improve their English refer to Americans as “foreigners” when they were the ones in a foreign country! It is apparent from this that the Korean and Japanese word that translates to “foreigner” carries some connotations which differ from the English meaning of the word. People with an understanding heart might be well advised to ‘give that one a pass.’
Mizar5: “As for wincing and looking befuddled, if that actually happened at all, which seems doubtful to say the least, it appears as if you’re just being hypersensitive.”
Mizar5 displays a disturbing lack of empathy when he denies the validity of t-song’s experience of being treated as ‘the other’. “It” (a soulless, insensate robot) appears to be in a deep state of denial of the reality that millions of minority Americans encounter on a daily basis. This inability to empathize with the feelings of others is a hallmark characteristic of a sociopath.
That might be a fair point if t.song ever showed any such empathy to the experiences of foreigners in korea, but instead dsiplays the same insecurities when he is in the majority.
Wow, all that from a single isolated comment. Remarkable.
I suppose he missed my comment about NK:
For that matter, he has not read any of my comments about what it’s like to be a minority and the things one in that position sometimes feels. But no matter. I can tell from his single isolated comment that he is a troglodyte.
That’s right. The characters literally translates to “outside country person” and the connotation of which you speak is someone not of our kind, someone less human who is not to be regarded with an “understanding heart.”
As for “understanding heart”, that is the typical term used in Korean exclusionism. As in: “we are Korean, we are special, we must be understood and excused for any of our actions because you are foreign and therefore incapable of rising to our level.
Exclusionism is not to be regarded with an “understanding heart” but countered with dispassionate self-examination. That’s a fundamental Buddhist teaching, son
Sure, I guess the english version of “foreigner” is less insidious (though I don’t see how it’s fundamentally different), but us americans have a different word for this. It’s called “mexican”.
Do you mean they do it in English? or in Korean? or in publications which are no more than a translated into English version of the original Korean thinking in that it was written for Korean middle aged people who have come to the States after they’ve grown up and whose first language isn’t Korean? or does your diaspora include people like Changrae Lee who are fully proficient in the language and have finally reached that destination of a successful and fully integrated American in American society without needing to rely on the cushion of Korean society for their living? Please specify. Your sweeping generalizations always get in the way of your logic, and somehow you apply this generalization *only* against the Koreans. How about if I wrote,”One of the most annoying things about the non-Korean diaspora is how they like to refer to themselves as Barbarians and take the wrong end of the stick even after knowing that the native Koreans don’t use that language everyday, playing on the impression in a joking manner that they are somehow ostracized”
Yuna:”Do you mean they do it in English? or in Korean?”
In Korean, of course. Even the thickheaded es1982 seemed to put that together. Maybe you’re just not thick enough…
Wow, that’s quite a mixed bundle of generalizations, Yuna. I particularly like the words “always” and “only”- So you are the one whose been stalking me with a recording machine? I had assumed that it was wjk, seeing as he hangs on my every word.
I’d say “what are you on?” And then I’d write you a new prescription.
Why are you arguing about Koreans in foreign countries using “foreigner” to identify natives when the original story used the term “타인종,” or “person of another race”?
Mizar5: “…, he no mere caraciture but a real human being and I feel for him.”
In point of fact, I did not miss that comment. I gave you no Brownie points for it, because it came across as singularly insincere, given the rest of your screed against NK. In your ranting against him, you supplied a heap of evidence that you are only able to see the world from your point of view, that is, how you personally are affected. You have no empathy.
Some of what NK says may come off as a racist. You may be right to object to any overtly racist statements. There are Korean and Japanese and Chinese racists, just as there are racists among whites in America, all of the Commonwealth countries, and the rest of Europe. There are racists among African Americans, and every other ethnic group that defines itself by saying who is and is not a member of their group.
I object to you and your hypocrisy because you cry about how Koreans use exclusionary language, yet deny that Asians are discriminated against in the US.
Mizar5: “Wow, all that from a single isolated comment.”
Actually, it wasn’t just from one singe isolated comment. Shall I remind you?
“Your perverse need to perceive yourself as an oppressed minority indicates that you are bound to a slave mentality.”
Very nice, and not the least bit pejorative
It’s very much akin to the Korean Peter Pan syndrome – you know, a nation of people who refuse to grow up and accept responsibility for their own destinies.”
Not at all patronizing or condescending here.
“You posit some supposed white supremecist power elite”
You twist his words. You impute things he did not say. This is a reflection of what’s going on in your own head.
The power elite in the US is overwhelmingly, and disproportionately white (and also male). This is an objective fact. 220 years of only white male presidents, anyone? And Obama is half white, and talks like an educated white man. Were that not the case, he could never have been elected.
178 years before the first non-white person was elevated to the Supreme Court. 192 years before there was a woman on the Supreme Court. We’ve now had a grand total of four Justices on the SC who were either women or black. And yet, the conservatives are screaming about reverse discrimination at the thought of elevating a Hispanic woman to the Court. ‘Her only qualification is her race and gender!’ they cry.
In the US Senate, only 3% is nonwhite. The most diverse body of the National government, the US House of Representatives, is 9.7% black, 5.7% Hispanic, 1.1% Asian, and still disproportionately white. And btw, women, who make up 51% of the population, comprise only 17% of the US House and Senate.
Look at the boardroom of any Major corporation in the US and what will you find? More of the same.
But Mizar5 would apparently deny all of this.
Looks like I have gained another sock puppet. So many willing thralls…
I think you’ll like this one, es1982.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/06/10/million-man-headache/#comment-160399
…and why are you so hung up on America, anyway? The only way to consider Korea is through comparison to the US? I guess Canadians aren’t the only ones…
Yuna: “Do they do it in English?”
Yes, as in “You’re the only foreigner I’ve met who pronounces my name right.” or “We cook it like this because foreigners like it that way.” The Chinese in Canada do it too.
Purely FYI. It doesn’t bother me a bit, although the word choice is obviously a bit queer, from a purely logical standpoint.
US society has many white supremacist groups. The KKK has been around for more than 150 years, but is hardly the only one, perhaps not even the main one anymore. The US also has neo Nazi groups, and numerous others.
Fortunately, they are NOT part of the power elite, though they would like to be. But it’s hardly comforting to know that people like James W. von Brunn are not wielding the levers of power. In every day life, minority people in the US still have to cross paths and occasionally rub shoulders with these hate filled individuals. Although most of the haters may not be violent, their hostility is nonetheless palpable, and occasionally overt, even in routine encounters.
But Mizar5 would evidently deny that this is part of the reality that millions of Americans must live with.
I’d like to hear him denounce the ‘racial purity’ policies and manifestos of the right wing extremist groups in the US.
You’re nuts. And you write like a poorly-educated white woman.
es1982, you present valid, coherent arguments (with the exception of the comment about Obama being articulate with its uncomfortably racial undertones). I’m not used to my sockpuppets making coherent arguments, and much more accustomed to the gratuitous strawman type of arguments you so kindly put forth in your prior posts.
Nor do your points run counter to my own observations. I have said the same things in the past.
Naturally , the US power elite happens to be mostly white. Just as the Korean power elite happens to be Korean. That is quite natural to expect, considering the demographics and history.
But racial composition does not in itself constitute evidence of what NK calls a “White makes Right” status quo (That was a direct quote – not imputed). Those of us who are non-white are hardly shut out of the process.
The composition of the House, according to your figures is fairly close to the actual demographics, and quite remarkable by international standards. 9.7% black, 5.7% Hispanic, 1.1% Asian. Not bad considering the actual demographics: 12% black, 15% Hispanic, 3.6% Asian. Sure, these groups have some work to do, but the argument that a “white power elite” has somehow shut them out is belied by the statistics themselves.
That’s plain silly. My point to NK is that we non-white minorities need not walk around with such chips on our shoulders. We can still “strive with diligence” (to quote someone who did) and move forward with optimism. Got it?
“You really have a dark hyperactive imagination.”
That’s right. Discrimination against Asians in America is all a figment of NK’s imagination.
“And all this nonsense about a ‘White standard’ ”
Keep telling yourself that there’s no such thing. Eventually you’ll be able to drown out the sound of everything else in that echo chamber that passes for your cranium.
“Are you saying that you agree that with NK’s delusionary statements . . . “
My, my. “NK is deluded.” That makes you perfectly sane, no doubt?
“. . . about some great white cabal that has been put in place specifically to suppress Asian males while empowering everybody else?”
I don’t think NK used the term “great white cabal.” That kind of terminology is more reflective of someone who ascribes to conspiracy theories, which is not what I sense from reading NK’s comments.
“If I point out that there is no evidence of any great white conspiracy to keep the Asian guy down and no nepharious white power structure keeping minorities out of the congress, supreme court and white house or preventing them from rising to positions of prominence in industry, journalism, the media, the arts and so on, . . . ”
Mizr5 denies what the history of the US has been. Does he yearn for history to be repeated?
“NK has a perceptual problem, ie. stinking thinking, . . .”
It would appear that Mizr5 is exhibiting his penchant for ‘psychological project.’ He projects onto others his own faults and shortcomings.
“Beneath it all, he’s brilliant and his biases are not entirely unselfconscious. The lengths he goes to to rationalize those biases means that he does retain some introspection and is just on the cusp of realization. The manner in which he vacillates between profound observations and tortured solipsistic mind farts leaves me wondering which side of him he’ll display next.”
More projection, evidently.
“He needs to be slapped, and slapped silly, and to shed the tortured mentation that holds him bound in delusion.”
Yes, the sincerity of your “I feel sorry for him” shines through here. Is this how you deal with everyone who fails to see the world through your rose colored lenses?
“And Mizar may be just the one to do it.”
And here Mizar concludes with a delusional claim of power he does not possess. At least it’s consistent with the rest of his ranting.
”
Aren’t you the guy who invoked imputation? If you have not read enough of my comments to have read my numerous denunciations of the right wing and bigots in the US, then you are clearly carrying on an argument with yourself.
You’re talking to someone whosed Stateside hometown was Bed Sty, Brooklyn, and who marched in solidarity with blacks in the 60s. Someone who has consistently exposed the hypocricy of conservatism here on this forum.
So why should I make a special announcement for your sake? If you want to be my sock puppet, you may continue to make fallacious arguments. But if you want to rise to my level as a debator, you’ll firt need to cultivate dispassion.
[Mizar's imputing, he's a sociopath, he's psychologically projecting, he's wearing rose colored glasses, he's delusional. I know this because...well, I argue from omniscience.]
Worse than that. Mizar is merely someone’s sock puppet. How does it feel to argue with the sock puppet of someone about whom you haven’t an inkling? Someone who has no real self to offend?
Furthermore, have you offered anything that hasn’t been said ad nauseum by many others, myself included, and much more articulately and logically formulated? Was your point that we Asians are a minority in US society? Did you think I would not already have known that?
So you also don’t understand Buddhism and the role the slap plays in the zen stories of awakening the mind, and you confuse this with lack of empathy. But if you were a better debater, you might have focused on my use of the mistaken use of the word “enlightenment” (which is Protestant) rather than “awakening” as it literally translates from Korean and is more precisely Buddhist, but instead you chose to resort to ad hominem and call me delusional.
Fine. You are officially my sock puppet.
I deny nothing historical and only affirm the present. Do you see the difference? From your own statistics, the so-called “white power elite” (a misnomer as they are not the elite simply as the result of their race) is doing a god-awful job of keeping minorities marginalized today. Now I understand that there are those who whatever self serving ideological reasons like to paint things with a broad black brush rather than the finely detailed brush of clear and accurate representation.
It would appear from the temper of your arguments that you are still quite young (only a guess). If that is the case I would know a great deal more about history, and the trajectory of things than you. As for seeing history repeat, it is not repeating.
Linked:
“I think you’ll like this one, es1982. http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/…..ent-160399”
What a charming and reasonable guy!
“. . . you write like a poorly-educated white woman.”
Why immediately debase yourself to this level of discourse?”
“…and why are you so hung up on America, anyway? The only way to consider Korea is through comparison to the US? ”
Gee, it seems like you really want to divert the debate into the ditch with cheap shots.
A) I am an American, and I don’t consider it being “so hung up on America” to talk about it.
B) It appears that t_song and NK are at least residents of the US, and that they have extensive experience being treated as “other” in the US.
I object to Mizar’s off the cuff dismissal of t-song’s experience when he says
“ . . . if that actually happened at all, which seems doubtful to say the least, it appears as if you’re just being hypersensitive.”
and to his lengthy screed against NK, where he again denies the validity of what he has experienced as an Asian male living in the US.
C) I write about the realities of American society because Mizar writes in a way that suggests he is either ignorant of it, or in denial.
D) When did I make any comparisons between Korea with the US?
Mizar in denial! es, you have clearly and eagerly demonstrated that you know neither who you’re arguing with nor what you’re arguing about. Mizar does not offer any off-the-cuff dismissal of anyone’s experience. But he does challange people to present their evidence for any bald assertion. Rather than being in either denial or ignorance, he speaks from extensive experience.
T_song stated that he has had observed “white people in the U.S. referring to minorities as “others” or “they” or wincing and looking befuddled when they hear me tell them that I’m from “America” and am an “American.” I have not experienced this, and I challenged him. Is that so difficult to understand?
“But if you want to rise to my level as a debator, you’ll firt need to cultivate dispassion.”
If these snippets are representative of the way you debate, (and Linkd’s citation of an earlier rant by you suggest that they are) I have a lot of work to do before I can match your level.
“I can tell from his single isolated comment that he is a troglodyte.”
“Even the thickheaded es1982 seemed to put that together. Maybe you’re just not thick enough…”
“Your perverse need to perceive yourself as an oppressed minority indicates that you are bound to a slave mentality and use this as a cop out to evade personal responsibility. It’s very much akin to the Korean Peter Pan syndrome – you know, a nation of people who refuse to grow up and accept responsibility for their own destinies.”
“You really have a dark hyperactive imagination.”
“Are you saying that you agree that with NK’s delusionary statements
NK has a perceptual problem, ie. stinking thinking, that no amount of ratiocination can resolve. He is a tortured soul who needs to abandon mentation”
“he vacillates between profound observations and tortured solipsistic mind farts”
“He needs to be slapped, and slapped silly, and to shed the tortured mentation that holds him bound in delusion”
“I have not experienced this, and I challenged him. Is that so difficult to understand?”
I understand that you see the world only through your own experiences, and that you have no empathy.
“How does it feel to argue with the sock puppet of someone about whom you haven’t an inkling? Someone who has no real self to offend?”
“. . . instead you chose to resort to ad hominem and call me delusional.”
Dear sock puppet, I have to admit that it does feel a bit silly to be arguing with you. But your self-contradictions ARE pretty funny.
You have no real self to offend, and yet you cry about an ad hominem attack. (BTW, I didn’t actually say “You are delusional.” I said you made a “delusional claim.”)
You cry about being on the end of an ad hominem attack, yet you spew a steady stream of it yourself. Nothing like someone who dishes it out, but can’t take it in return!
“You’re talking to someone whosed Stateside hometown was Bed Sty, Brooklyn, and who marched in solidarity with blacks in the 60s.”
So, you must be approaching your 70’s, if not beyond! I should surely pay you more respect, for you have acquired the wisdom of having lived many years.
BTW, Sesame street (forgive me if your sock puppet image is not borrowed from that show) wasn’t on the air until 1969. So, maybe you’re not as old as you claim to be.
“I would know a great deal more about history”
I am in awe of your knowledge.
“you also don’t understand Buddhism and the role the slap plays in the zen stories of awakening the mind, and you confuse this with lack of empathy.”
I’m doubly honored and humbled, now that I know I’m speaking to a zen master.
“. . . with the exception of the comment about Obama being articulate with its uncomfortably racial undertones.”
I did not use the ‘Joe Biden term.’ You love to distort what other people say, don’t you? That’s a pretty pathetic way to score debate points.
Is it racist to make the observation that the vast majority of African Americans speak a variant of English known as “Ebonics”?
Is it racist to observe that if Obama talked like earlier candidates for the White House, Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, that he never would have been able to attract the broad level of support that he did?
And, if I’m not mistaken, in the early stages of the campaign, the majority of African Americans themselves were hesitant to throw their support behind Obama, because they weren’t sure if he was “black enough.”
Linkd: “Yes, as in “You’re the only foreigner I’ve met who pronounces my name right.” or “We cook it like this because foreigners like it that way.” The Chinese in Canada do it too.
Purely FYI. It doesn’t bother me a bit, although the word choice is obviously a bit queer, from a purely logical standpoint.”
I totally agree that it seems “a bit queer.”
But your examples demonstrate the point I was trying to make, that East Asians don’t use their word for “foreigner” the same way that Americans do. (pardon me for not including Canadians, I’m just talking about what I know.)
Americans use the word in contexts such as
“Damn fur-eners! Can’t talk American!”
Foreigners are taking over our country!
They’re taking jobs away from REAL Americans!
“Put ‘em all on boats and send ‘em back where they came from.”
‘They use OUR schools, and hospital emergency rooms and don’t pay any taxes.’
And that’s just the tip of the ice berg. So, when I speak of different connotations, I’m thinking of the angry, hateful, and hostile way that the word is often used in the US, versus the typically neutral way that East Asians use the word ––“people who are not us”.
Of course, the word can be exclusionary at times, and that no doubt feels hurtful to Westerners who are trying to build relationships with them. But you seem to be doing exactly what I suggested, that is you don’t let it bother you, you’re ‘giving it a pass.’
There is another difference here, as well. The US (and perhaps Canada, too) has always stood for being a land that welcomed people from every corner of the world, the great melting pot. The Statue of Liberty bears these words:
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
East Asian countries have never pretended to be that kind of country, and therefore (in my opinion) needn’t be held to the same standard.
“like to paint things with a broad black brush rather than the finely detailed brush of clear and accurate representation.”
“Naturally , the US power elite happens to be mostly white. Just as the Korean power elite happens to be Korean. That is quite natural to expect, considering the demographics and history.”
Talk about painting with a Brooooooad Brush!! You may as well be using a 12” roller here.
Blacks have been living in US territory since 1616. They were the majority of the population in several southern states for centuries. East Asians have been in the US since the California gold rush days. There are 5th and 6th, and maybe even 7th generation Americans of Asian descent. A huge chunk of American territory was part of Mexico until 1846. Minorities are approaching 50% of the population, the alarmist media frequently tells us.
There is nothing similar between the US and Korea considering demographics and history. I would like to see you work with a “finely detailed brush of clear and accurate representation.”
No doubt, your response to this will be something along the lines of
“So why should I make a special announcement for your sake?”
“The composition of the House, according to your figures is fairly close to the actual demographics, and quite remarkable by international standards. 9.7% black, 5.7% Hispanic, 1.1% Asian. Not bad considering the actual demographics: 12% black, 15% Hispanic, 3.6% Asian. Sure, these groups have some work to do, but the argument that a “white power elite” has somehow shut them out is belied by the statistics themselves.”
Looks to me as though Hispanics are under-represented in the House by 62% and Asians by 69%. Saying that that’s “fairly close to the actual demographics” betrays your bias.
But we need not quibble about glass half-empty, half-full here. But NK made no reference to the institutions of government. It was you, providing another fine example of your great debating skill, who tossed out this red herring:
“no nepharious white power structure keeping minorities out of the congress, supreme court and white house”
I just wanted to point out that your supposed refutation has a few holes in it.
Mizar: “there is no evidence of any great white conspiracy to keep the Asian guy down . . . or preventing them from rising to positions of prominence in industry, journalism, the media, the arts and so on”
I don’t think this is what NK was talking about either.
He did not use this word, and I hope he’ll correct me if I’m wrong, but what I think is at the crux of NK’s long post, is the issue of ‘assimilation.’ I think what NK’s saying (and this was close to the topic of the newspaper article) is that Korean Americans should work harder to preserve their ethnic and racial identity, and not be so quick to adopt all of the cultural norms of mainstream (white) America. I understand his
“White makes Right” status quo”
to mean is that mainstream attitudes are intolerant of ethnic groups that don’t want to fully assimilate with WASP cultural standards.
I’m not saying I agree with him. I certainly do not agree with him when he says
“. . . we need to become a more Militant Minority .”
It would be great if the self-styled ‘master debater’ would address the topic at hand, without tossing in red herrings and distortion of the points that are being made.
Instead, our zen master begins with “What a bunch of crap NK . . .” followed by long screeds that indicate very little understanding and much misinterpretation.
I can’t wait until I’m able to debate as well as Mizar.
It’s not bias but a matter of immigration. Depending on who’s being counted, a significant number of Hispanics and fair number of Asians are not US citizens and therefore ineligible to vote.
Well, of course, you haven’t.
correct me if i’m wrong, but when koreans use the word, “foreigner” in korean, aren’t they using the word to refer to non-koreans? i mean, when koreans use the word in the US, they are not claiming that the US is their land and all non-koreans are visitors. come on.
let’s put it this way. let’s say you are translating and writing the subtitles to a korean movie. the scene takes place in the US. a korean character uses the word, “외국인,” to describe an American person. are you going to translate that into “foreigner”? or “non-korean” (or something equivalent)?
Sonagi: “It’s not bias but a matter of immigration. Depending on who’s being counted, a significant number of Hispanics and fair number of Asians are not US citizens and therefore ineligible to vote.”
You make a good point, and that needs to be considered in the equation. But surely you’re not suggesting that 62% of Asians in America are not US citizens, and therefore ineligible to vote?
Anyway, the charge of “bias” I was making was against Mizar for how he was interpreting the numbers. I did not mean to imply anything about biases the American electorate may or may not have that would make them less likely to vote for minorities.
No. There’s also the critical component of grassroots support. Barack Obama got his start in politics by tapping into community and church resources in Chicago’s Southside. From there, he broadened his base. A naturalized first generation or native-born second generation American of Hispanic or Asian heritage may find it more difficult to establish a strong base.
Yes, but the Korea-centric use of the word is annoying, especially when speaking English in a non-Korean context. There is also a racial component as Koreans, Chinese, and Japanese generally limit the word “foreigner” to people of non-northeast Asian nationalities.
English speakers use the word “foreigner” to identify someone whose exact nationality is unknown. Koreans use “foreigner” even when the nationality is known. This can genuinely be confusing. For example, a Korean was telling me about swapping mobile phones with an Australian in Australia. He called the Australian a foreigner. I knew that Koreans often call any white person “foreigner” but wasn’t sure, so I asked to clarify. On another occasion, a Korean woman was describing her experience at a bar in Boston with “many foreigners.” Since Boston is a diverse city, by “foreigners,” she could have meant non-Americans, so I asked to clarify. In this case, the “foreigners” were believed to be Americans.
That is why Confucius replied that if given a government position, the first order of business was the rectification of names. We cannot communicate clearly if one word means something different to the speaker and the listener. Koreans calling any whitey “foreigner” isn’t racist; it’s just confusing sometimes.
let’s say you are translating and writing the subtitles to a korean movie. the scene takes place in the US. a korean character uses the word, “외국인” to describe an American person. are you going to translate that into “foreigner”? or “non-korean” (or something equivalent)? — seoulmilk @62
Good question. But you already answered it. Anyone who’d use 외국인 (or gaijin, waiguoren, etc.) is not fully an American. Unless it’s being used for humorous or other pointed effect, in which case you’d probably want to leave it alone, besides spelling 외국인 as weigoogin.
If these ethnic groups have a problem with WASP cultural standards (which are awesome, BTW), I question why they felt the need to move to a country whose foundation rests on them.
Do they see themselves as colonizers of some sort?
Always? How long as that poem been around?
Last time I checked the Statute of Liberty wasn’t official American policy.
Go ahead and be annoyed, then. It’s not my intention to justify or excuse their use of the word, but simply to understand what they mean.
Yes, East Asians can be as racist as anyone else, and often are.
But it’s not just about ‘yellow’ versus other colors. Japanese continue to look down on Koreans, considering them to be quite inferior. Their treatment of the Korean minority that lives in Japan (people, or the descendents of people who were taken there to work as forced laborers) has not exactly been a model of inclusiveness. Koreans, for their part, were not much better in the way they treated the Chinese minority that settled in their country after 1949. Koreans also have a few choice ‘nicknames’ for Japanese people, as well. And of course, the Chinese still feel they are superior to everyone else.
Your examples are exactly like the one I gave of Japanese students who were studying in the U.S. For better or worse, that’s the way their language works (and consequently their thought processes). What are any of us going to do about it? The best I can do is to understand that they don’t usually mean anything hostile by it, and try to keep one less thing off my list of pet peeves. There are plenty of other things to be annoyed by.
You prove my point.
I used the neutral expression “racial component” not the pejorative word “racist.” I’m surprised you would misinterpret my comment since I stated clearly in my concluding sentence that Koreans’ use of “foreigner” to identify any racially different person was not racist. If it doesn’t bother you, cheers to you. If it bothers others, let them deal with it. If a Korean appears to misuse the word, I ask in a polite tone to clarify as I would anytime someone appears to misuse a word in a way that muddles the meaning of an utterance.
I was referring to the “ideal,” or “national myth” if you must.
Would you rather talk about the Chinese Exclusion Acts of 1882, and 1893 the “climax to more than thirty years of progressive racism”? Or the National Origins Act and Asian Exclusion Act of 1924? Perhaps you long for a return to those days, when “undesirable immigrants” were to be kept out?
Perhaps you would have been cheer-leading the forced relocation of all west coast Japanese in 1942, which resulted in their complete loss of homes, businesses, and other possessions, and more than three years in desolate concentration camps?
Sorry, I’m afraid my ears aren’t finely tuned enough to recognize that
was supposed to be a neutral expression. And, I must also admit that I did not see your concluding sentence, as I stopped reading carefully when I saw the reference to Confucius. My bad.
I think we basically agree that most of the time Koreans do not connote an overtly racist meaning when they use the “f” word. Your emphasis seems to be on clearing up potential confusion and polite correction; while mine (at least in this extended discussion) has been on understanding and ‘letting it slide.’ A minor difference.
Now that I think about it, I can’t recall ever hearing Koreans in America use the term 외국인 in Korean or English. I’m sure they do, but the Koreans I’m most often in contact with, other than my wife, are usually graduate students, who tend to be a bit more sensitive and astute in that area, especially since they’re taking classes in intercultural communication and conflict management as part of their coursework. Of course, back in the days when I taught English in Korea, I used to hear that all the time.
But I’ve never heard any of my wife’s friends talk like that. And I don’t hear it when I go with her to a Korean grocery store or restaurant, or attend Korean church, once in a blue moon. Even last fall, when I spent three days out in the Bay area attending a large Korean wedding for a sister-in-law’s nephew, I didn’t hear anyone use that term.
Perhaps you won’t be happy until 1 billion + people reside in the U.S?
This is always the $64,000 question, dogbertt. If our values are so shitty, Mr. Immigrant from Crapistan, you are always welcome to go back home.
Well, think about it. It would solve the housing deflation problem, and we’d finally have the population density necessary for the government to force us all onto environmentally-friendly rail transportation. Soon we Americans can have the low carbon footprint of the Indians riding on top of the rail cars in Bombay.
“Blacks have been living in US territory since 1616.”
Last I heard there was no US territory in 1616.
I would like to note that I have never, ever heard of a Korean, Korean American, or Korean international student referring to Americans as “foreigners”. It has always been “여기 사람들” (People here) or “미국인/미국사람” (Americans), and never, ever “외국인”. And unlike es1982, Koreans I meet and talk with are from all points and sections of lives and society.
And I find it amusing that Mizar5 expects the Korean language to adapt to the no doubt appropriate change in the level of cultural sensitivity that has occurred in less than a decade. Hey, at least they got rid of words like “코쟁이”s. (… with plastic surgery)
LOL. Especially true in Arizona.
WASP is cool, I can work with WASP, can admire it even. Koreans love WASP culture and you know it. Only small problem is the W part, since this ain’t a White country no more.
JW, aren’t most Anglo-Saxons white?
Well…don’t blame me for the tautology, I didn’t make up the term WASP.
According to es1982, we still run things anyway.
Don’t gloat yet, kyopo.
I know, even the Anglo-Saxon part is not really Anglo-Saxon anymore anyway.
Oh don’t think that I’ll start gloating to any random white guy I meet. No hell no. It’s them folks coming out of the woods that I’m talking about. I won’t say it’s a major problem, but it’s a problem.
no way es1982 is a gyopo. he said he was teaching english in korea when he met his korean (national?) wife.
can any of the other gyopos verify that 외국인 is used a lot? my parents have used it a lot, and they do say things like 미국인들이 (never hear 여기 사람) when making any type of contrasting statement to very Korean things, like enjoying the taste of kimchi (which I didn’t growing up, so I was told i was a 완전 미국 사람), the use of chopsticks or not studying very hard. Despite my citizenship status, the use of 미국인들 in that context was one where there was a contrast being made.
i never used foreigner or 외국인 in America, though i did use it a lot while i was in korea, b/c i think i used it how native koreans used it: someone who does not look chinese, japanese or korean. It’s funny, when I talk about Chinese or Germans or Spaniards in the U.S., in Korean, I often just say the country where they’re from–not 외국인. That’s strange now that I think about it.
Can a native Korean weigh in on this? yuna perhaps?
I’ve heard 미국사람 and 여기사람 from my 1st gen Kyopo aunt (her Korean-American husband is a anaesthesiologist so she is an educated middle-class) in the States, so one tick for bumfromkorea. I personally have never heard the term 외국사람 to refer to the native white population from any kyopo that I know, but I can believe it exists.
I’ve heard 외국인 from Koreans in Korea, to refer to non-East Asian foreigners in Korea including whites, blacks, and south-Asians. CJK are given the distinction – Chinese or Japanese or Koreans, therefore everything else apart from CJK between the CJK’s are indeed 외국인 more often than not, so one tick for Sonagi.
ChangRaeLee (or t_song in US) would not say foreigner or 외국인 in either language to refer to his white or black American colleagues. Which is what I objected to in the first place. Mizar’s sweeping generalization.
es1982 is the new wjk. Hangs on my every word, makes little effort to understand the subject, but unlike wjk, he also appears to have little to no knowledge of Korea and/or Korean, and relies entirely upon long-winded argumentum verbosium in a rather vain attempt to bully opponents into submission, lacking as his arguments are in actual substance. Sifting through all his diatrobes, one comes to see that he has no real point other than: “pay attention to me! I have something to say! ”
To wit: “Minorities are underrepresented in congress;” “Minorities face a unique set of challenges that you cannot understand!” Seeing that these are relatively non-controvercial points that no one has either argued against or argued about and that, unlike those of us who have experience of being a minority, it becomes clear that he is merely parroting conventional pieties in an attempt to engage.
OK, we acknowledge your existence. Yes, you may cringe at our feet.
What is most endearing about the boy is the ironic comedy he brings to the table, fancying himself the prophetic voice in the wilderness for pointing out childish things we have long left behind. Good for a chuckle. However, when it comes to that sort of irony I prefer the more succinct “mean people suck.”
Yuna:”ChangRaeLee (or t_song in US) would not say foreigner or 외국인 in either language to refer to his white or black American colleagues. Which is what I objected to in the first place. Mizar’s sweeping generalization.”
How is it a sweeping generalization to note that Korean diaspora often refer to the natives as 외국인? It was basically a joke based on the fact that 1st generation Korean emigrants do in fact use it.
Actually, what brought this to mind was a segment I saw on 세상에 이런 일 in which a Korean restaraunt owner was carrying on about how much the foreigners (ie. native Chinese) love Korean ja jang myeon. The whole segment was so absurdly triumphalist as to border on the surreal, concluding that Korean ja jang myeon was an international triumph.
@Mizar5
Can’t we also say you’ve long preyed on the words of es1982-types to fuel your own attention whoring?
That you annoit people as your sock puppets and have taken on a fake 50-year-old ajosshi persona online is just, strange. What’s impressive is not your steady stream of contradictory argumentative analysis but the vigor and endeavor with which you have (presumably, for years–according to you) antagonized others and derived some type of ego-boosting pleasure from defending yourself. Again and again and again. And, sadly, again.
You must log 10,000+ words a day, basically taking any theme with a Korean-bent to it and immediately taking the anti-ROK approach. While it’s healthy for discussion–I’ve mildly enjoyed this back-and-forth in this thread–what is startling is this: the es1982s have come and gone throughout time and will undoubtedly come and go, but only you have remained.
Which brings up the question: in your self-created reality, who really is the puppeteer?
You are also acknowledged.
Yes.
So, now that you know that, where do you go from here?
Right, Linkd. It’s never about a no self to whom nothing is personal, but rather about the self one imagines oneself to be, and how that self is seen to respond to what that it may perceive as antagonistic to it.
Maybe when I’m sober I’ll understand what the hell you’re talking about. Meanwhile, you’re winning, and your avatar still sucks dong.
How dare you insult my avatar! Or was that a “left handed” compliment?
I’ve complimented you enough. Your avatar blows chunks. You can do better.
Linkd avatar awards:
Grand Prize: Sonagi
Runner-up: Robert
Tied for third: Granfalloon and Bipolar Mindscrew
Don’t even wanna think about it: aaronm
Worst avatar: Brendon Carr, of course.
My avatar should get the grand prize. I took the image myself about two years ago, and I haven’t changed a bit.
Linkd:”Your avatar blows chunks.”
10,000+ words a day of putrid, regurgitated truth.
Touche. Your argument is flawless, your style sublime.
No ad hominem reference to your own avatar, sublime in its minimalism
The sock puppet bows to its master.
Zing! But did you know that it’s Opposite Day? Thus by the power of Opposite Day, my avatar is the best.
Thanks for nod, Linkd. Robert’s is good, wish I’d thought of it first. But no one can match the comedy stylings of Huh Kyung Young. It’s his IQ that puts him out of everybody’s league.
Linkd:”Maybe when I’m sober I’ll understand what the hell you’re talking about. ”
It occurs to me that:
a. maybe you’re not drunk enough.
b. you might not want to attempt something that drastic;
c. there’ll be plenty of time to sober up after class is over.
Granfalloon, yours is fantastic. It may be in bad taste right now but that No Mu Hyeon troll avatar was another of my favorites.
But one of the great things about my avatar is the way it keeps everyone wondering what’s really inside the sock.
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