Good bless the lefties at Pressian for this truly outstanding piece of racial muckraking aimed at foreign professors entitled, “‘We’re Vampires’… Women, Even Drugs OK in Korea?”
And bless Korea Beat’s heart for translating it all. Here’s a taste:
Profs. A and B continued to stay in the foreigner- and club-heavy district of Hongdae and indiscriminately meet Korean women.
Pressian learned from one of Prof. B’s ex-girlfriends, a Korean, that they sent text messages reading, “we can do anything in Seoul,” “we are vampires,” and “when are you going to take another girl’s virginity?” Prof. B used his ex-girlfriend’s name to sign a contract for cellphone service.
[...]
Lee Jeong (pseudonym), who used to know Prof. B, said, “I have seen white men living in Korea take advantage of Koreans’ preconceptions of them. They basically follow the English-speaking white man and engage in a baseless friendship.”Lee added, “when they meet a Korean woman they know she will be their tourist guide, interpreter, and finally sexual partner, and they use the Hongdae clubs as the way to meet Korean women. They come here to teach and conduct research and this is how they behave. It’s shocking.”
Hey, at least they didn’t go after the E-2 guys, right?
(HT to Brian)
{ 127 comments… read them below or add one }
Well, no one in this piece is “making a habit of having sex at knifepoint,” like Lee Eun-ung says teachers are doing. So I guess that’s progress.
Wow, this is better tourist promotion than “sparkling Korea”! Where do I sign up?
By the way, I have said it before and I will say it again: If Koreans don’t want foreigners banging their women, why not just make it a visa condition that they are not allowed to do so. Israel, among other countries, does it. Let Korea drop the two-faced attitude and just make it official.
Good to see more writing from you these days, Robert. Was getting worried you wouldn’t be showing up anymore.
If it wasn’t so poorly written, I might actually be offended.
China & Vietnam do it, too- it’s “illegal” for a foreign man to be alone with a local woman. Nothing about local men & foreign women.
Anyway, more BS about evil foreign sex predators and pure, innocent Koreans.
This is insulting to Koreans as well as it states that Koreans are so naiive (dumb) as to not truly understand human relationships.
Anyway, more sour grapes as any man with a brain and some social skills doesn’t have to go to the room salon or red light district and fork over a wad of cash.
One word- jealousy!
Shakuhachi, do you have any more sources for this? I know Laos bans it, but wasn’t aware Israel did. At any rate, after I spent a summer working in Greece, my travel companion went on to Eilat in Israel and was up to his greasy neck in local women. Didn’t get busted for it either. Maybe he was lucky?
The proclivities of Koreans abroad should be more of a concern to these people if they are so keen on getting involved in people’s sex lives. Recently here in Jakarta I was showing a journalist friend from Australia around the bar district and we both noted that the Koreans in the last club we visited were surrounded by the youngest looking girls in the place. You could also do a search for the repeat offenses of Korean fishermen in Kiribati with teenage prostitutes.
Hey aaronm, your avatar. You know what, I think I’ve seen that mug somewhere…
#2
Wow, this is better tourist promotion than “sparkling Korea”! Where do I sign up?
Yeah, they should just change it to “Me rove you rong time”.
Yea NK, you’ve seen him in Soi Cowboy and in your favorite ladyboy clubs
aaronm, IIRC, it applied to Chinese (and possibly other) workers with a work visa, and not tourists. Not sure whether it is blanket, or only applies to certain categories of workers.
I wouldn’t mind Korea making such a visa condition. It would get rid of all the foreign workers banging Korean women, and would be a boon to Korean homosexual men.
Another silly attempt by the male-dominated Korean media to demonize relationships between Korean women and foreign men. The ridiculous part is that they want to make foreign men into demonic sex predators, when Korean men are famous world-wide for their destructive and perverted sexual practices. (and even Koreans in general :: 90% of prostitutes arrested regularly in LA are Korean women being pushed by sex rings of Korean men and female madams).
Another good example is the Kiribati case, mentioned above: Korean fishermen landing in Kiribati and impregnating girls as young as 14, giving them sexual diseases (because they refused to wear condoms) and even spurring the local Catholic bishop to call for a ban on all Korean fishermen in the country forever. This was an international embarrassment for Korea. But no: the evil sexual predators are English teachers in Hongdae who just want to go dancing with a Korean woman! LOL!
Last time I checked, Koreans are the only people group who have been singled-out for basically overwhelming a whole entire nation (Kiribati) with thirst to have sex with their children, giving them diseases, impregnating them, and then being rebuked by the Catholic church. These men were pedophiles, and they kept going back for more. Here’s a couple links for your reading pleasure:
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_international/192618.html
http://www.rnzi.com/pages/news.php?op=read&id=31135
But we never hear about these things here in the Korean media.Only non-Korean men are evil. Through the hyper-hypocritical criticisms of foreign men concerning their dating practices, we see this greasy, ugly layer of gross Korean male insecurity that is so gaping as to make one double-back.
Now. Let’s think here for a moment.
As for Korean men, even while they write pieces about how English professors are “preying” on Korean women, they are the ones frolicking nightly in room salons, massage parlors, and girly bars. But that’s OK, right? To some Koreans (mainly male), they seem to have this perverted, insane notion that Korean men are somehow entitled to abusing women and underage girls.
When the Kiribati case was breaking and international news organizations kept calling the Korean government for comment, they refused to comment, and there was nothing of it in the local media. But I guarantee you that if that ship had been loaded with American sailors, then it would have been splashed all over the media for months, and probably worked into dramas, movies, and ad campaigns later.
Finally, I would be very quick to qualify what I am saying with this: there are countless very smart, intelligent and worldy-thinking Koreans (both male and female) who see through all the bullshit in the media that demonizes foreigners. Further, there are countless smart, intelligent Korean women who are perfectly capable of seeing through the insane insecurity of Korean men that motivates these kinds of scurrilous, biggoted, and racist pieces, lumping all foreign men/teachers/professors into some evil gang just here to oppress and lead korean women astray.
It’s total nonsense. As for myself, here is a message to you Koreans that see through it: most foreigners know very well all Koreans are not racist.
Evidence of this is in some of the Korean responses to the “vampire” article. I think many Korean women are beginning to speak out about the ridiculous hypocrisy. Here is an example:
“차라리 창녀촌 룸싸롱 안마방 다니는 일부 한국남자들 보단 덜 위험 하다고 할수 잇겠네요…”
Translation: “Rather, compared to the Korean men that frequent prostitution room salons and massage parlors, it is possible to say that [foreign men] are less dangerous/risky…”
The writer (슬픈보노 – you can find these responses below the article in Korean) goes on to disparage this kind of trash journalism in Korea on the left. This is the first time I have seen Koreans directly respond to this kind of Korean nationalized racism in a reasoned way in a Korean context.
I was impressed. And this proves that there are many sharp, non-racist Koreans out there, because this was not something being paraded in front of foreigners for foreign consumption. This was a post in a Korean forum, in Korean, for Koreans.
It’s a class issue, not a race issue. I’m really getting sick and tired of idiots who cry “racism”.
NetizenKim,
In what sense is this a class issue? I don’t remember any articles of this type in the daily worker.
Shakuhachi,
One needs to maintain a much broader perspective when analyzing these kinds of developments. Are white Engrish teachers and professors the only male foreigners in Korea? If this is truly a race-based issue, where are all the yellow journalism fear-mongering pieces exposing Nigerians, Pakistanis, and foreigners of other Asian ethnicity?
Recently, I met the younger brother of one Peter Chung. If you recall, Mr Chung was an Ivy League pedigreed schmuck in the employ of the Korea branch of The Carlyle Group who back in 2001 became infamous for sending an email to all his buddies about all the hot chicks he was bagging in Korea. This incident became blown wide open in the press and internet. The Korean-American community is a small world and word spreads fast. Everyone unanimously agrees that this guy is a scumbag. Is this racism?
These professors are a lot like Peter Chung. No one disputes that his employer was right in firing Chung. Likewise, the universities that hired these professors are within their rights to question the moral character of the foreign professors that they are hiring. Also, the Korean leftist groups are within their rights to question Korean society’s ridiculous craze with the highly skewed Engrish education racket in general and 2MB’s policies regarding the matter. The article is saying, why are we putting these assholes on such a high pedestal?
I am also aware of the Israeli policy on foreigner guest workers, which you brought up. It is a good policy. As you may be aware, China currently has ambitions in Africa and many Chinese workers are in Africa right now. Interestingly enough, the Chinese government puts restrictions on Chinese workers having relations with native African women. The reason is because these Chinese are TEMPORARY guest workers.
It is necessary to have such restrictions on TEMPORARY guest workers. Because single mothers and mixed-race children borne out of wedlock then become a burden of the State. There is no incentive for TEMPORARY guest workers toward social responsibility. The vast majority of Engrish teachers in Korea are there to make a buck and then leave. This is a fact.
If the West wants to have interesting experiments in multicultural diversity that’s fine. Don’t expect other nations to think the same way. East Asian nations are homogenous nations that place a premium on social order and stability.
Man in his Natural state, unencumbered by law or custom, is inherently Evil. This also applies to gender relations.
I think we need to re-examine the freewheeling and individualistic Western-style approach to sexual relations. Only those who are sufficiently enlightened to exercise restraint and responsibility deserve freedom. But Man, regardless of race, nationality, or culture, regularly demonstrates that he is not deserving of liberties, abuses power and privilege when convenient, and proves that his freedom needs to be bound within the constraints of checks and balances.
Let me ask you all this: the primary reason why you dorks consistently go all ga-ga goo-goo over women of Oriental culture is because they seem to lack the chip-on-the-shoulder, man-repellent bitch shield mentality of many Western women. Many of you will most readily attest to this. Is this not so? Why is this? If Western-style gender relations is so great, why do so many Western women have this hostile attitude?
It is because for the most part there is a diminished sense of community in the West. In the mainstream Korean society, courtship between man and woman is still governed for the most part by ritualistic protocol (meetings, arrangements, “sohn”, etc) under the oversight of family and close friends. Often it can go overboard and be overbearing but in the greater scheme of things…remove this structure at your own peril. In the West, after roughly four decades of disorderly conduct between men and women following the so-called Sexual Revolution of the 60s, we have women who are regularly hostile to men. Men have been reduced to a state of blithering cowards because saying “hello” to a strange woman might be an invitation for sexual harassment charges in some circumstances. In divorce settlements, men are raped by the courts, slapped with alimony and deprived of their property. In the Land of the Free Home of the Brave, men and women alike are not free nor brave and this is the price we pay for the loss of child-like innocence.
In Sir Thomas More’s “Utopia”, he describes the mating rituals of the inhabitants of Utopia. A young boy and girl deemed suitable for each other are allowed to view each other naked (a person would not purchase a horse without examining the physical suitability of the horse). If they like what they see, and agree to the arrangement, then there is a match. The point being, this is all conducted under the auspices of elders of the community and family. This demonstrates that whether one is talking of Oriental or Occidental culture, there are some universals underlying human relations.
In the absence of custom or law, there is simply raw power dynamics. Men may be pigs but women also demonstrated that upon liberalization they are equally capable of nastiness and the exercise of reverse-sexism. The Korean woman who lusts after the white foreigner in the drug-infested clubs of Hongdae, the Sodom and Gomorrah of Korea, exercises reverse-sexism based upon the prestige of white privilege. Inequality compounded with more inequality. The Korean leftist observers inherently realizes the subtle tragedy of this phenomenon. Where are the righteous Korean women who will address contemporary issues of society on its own terms instead of the legions of opportunistic whores who exacerbate and inflame the problems even more?
Apparently, that is a rare breed.
@17
Pardon me, but I think you just said Korean women are using white foreigners for sex.
“legions of opportunistic whores” in “drug-infested clubs” in “Sodom and Gomorrah”? Apparently, Seoul is now Bangkok. I had no idea.
“The vast majority of Engrish teachers in Korea are there to make a buck and then leave.”
That’s not true. And even if it was, what’s wrong with wanting to earn money when you go through the trouble of traveling halfway around the world for a job? It’s not as if South Korea is a third world country and we came here a volunteer for a charitable organization.
PS. If all I wanted was to make a buck, I would have gone to the Northwest Territories: better pay, no E2 visa limitations, no xenophobic media, and a population density of 0.037/km2.
“It is because for the most part there is a diminished sense of community in the West. In the mainstream Korean society, courtship between man and woman is still governed for the most part by ritualistic protocol (meetings, arrangements, “sohn”, etc) under the oversight of family and close friends.”
When was the last time you came to South Korea? 1982?
“The Korean woman who lusts after the white foreigner in the drug-infested clubs of Hongdae, the Sodom and Gomorrah of Korea, exercises reverse-sexism based upon the prestige of white privilege.”
You know, most people don’t judge others based on the colour of their skin only.
” But Man, regardless of race, nationality, or culture, regularly demonstrates that he is not deserving of liberties, abuses power and privilege when convenient, and proves that his freedom needs to be bound within the constraints of checks and balances.”
Woah, woah NK, that may be the case of Confucionistic Asian culture where the ideas of personal freedom are way more absent than they are in the west, however you should not assume that the Western model does not work. I think I speak for all Americans and westerners here when I say that the above statement was very insulting to us in general. Just because being controlled by the all seeing eye of big brother (communism) is what a majority of East Asians prefer, do not assume that it is in any way superior to other forms of idealism.
If the West wants to have interesting experiments in multicultural diversity that’s fine. Don’t expect other nations to think the same way.
NK – you might want to give the government a ring, I don’t think they got your memo.
Minister of Justice Kim Kyung-han: “We will create an open society for all . . . Our challenge is to strengthen national competitiveness by opening our borders to all people with talent and to create a mature multicultural society that respects the human rights of foreigners. In the process, we must also prevent any negative side effects of our openness policy by ensuring everyone in Korea abides by the law.” Korea Breaking Down Walls of Discrimination
국가경쟁력 강화 위한 외국인정책 기본계획
And also the west usually is the one bailing out those insular countries when they need help or assistance. So us building a a model nation like our own in Asia or anywhere else in the world makes sense. Our way works because it has proven to work. Yes we have hiccups in capitalism however our record proves that in famine we wont let millions starve to death for the sake of the hive like China has repeadetly and North Korea. Do not expect the west to help out a struggling commie country and then not try to make it more like the west. It is only logical for both parties to follow the more successfull ones lead.
And yes we in the west still have a courtship ritual when it comes to relationships too. However we also have the option to ignore such procedures without shame and be more direct with each other if we want. Do I encourage it, personally no, however I will defend to the death the right of any man or woman to be a total imperialistic slut if he or she wants. Sodom and Gommarah? Please we at least keep Las Vegas family friendly to an extent.
Which always makes me wonder why families such as yours would choose to leave.
BTW, you are a key component to our “interesting experiment”. How do you feel about that?
So, what’s Peter up to these days?
Same shite all the time from the Korean press. The story hasn’t changed in the 10+ years I’ve been here and has probably been going on since Korea invented the printing press. In the typical ajusshi mind, the fact that a woman could have her own sense of sexuality is unthinkable and dirty.
I live near Hongdae, and I will say that 99.9% of the couples roaming around and hitting the clubs are Korean. But just remember kids, the same old stereotype that gets used to filter every other situation also applies here:
Korean people, places, food = SAFE
Foreign people, places, food = DANGEROUS
NetizenKim
Wow, I do not frequent this forum much. But you are one particularly insecure Korean man, even by Korean standards. Congratulations, NetizenKim, that’s a difficult thing to achieve!!
But listen: it is my supreme hope that you continue your long, racist, unstudied diatribes, because in doing so you completely betray the fact that you are an insecure Korean man trying his best to demonize cross cultural relationships, simply because it hurts your pride. I guarantee you that your racist, terrible insults (calling teachers “dorks” and your own Korean women who date non-Korean men “whores”) leave one simple, supreme, and undeniable impression:
You, Netizen Kim, are just another insecure Korean man who feels deeply compelled to demonize foreign men in order to feel good about yourself.
Par on course for Dae Han Min Kuk.
In the end, it is quite sad. When you see a foreign man and a Korean woman together, it digs at you, does it not? So, because you are not mature enough to handle the fact that what we are essentially talking about here is a matter of simple attraction — and not a statement about your manhood — we all have to put up with the whiny bullshit nonsense being spewed by insecure Korean men like yourself.
Let’s take a moment and examine a few examples of some immature, racist, venomous nonsense (from your post above) that is rooted in your deep insecurity, Mr Netizen Kim, shall we?
1. “the primary reason why you dorks consistently go all ga-ga goo-goo over women of Oriental culture is because they seem to lack the chip-on-the-shoulder, man-repellent bitch shield mentality of many Western women.”
Ah. I get it, Mr Netizen Kim, we are all “dorks.” But we are “dorks” who don’t want the “bitch shield” mentality of western women. That’s classic. You just managed to smear two whole entire groups of people in the same sentence racially. Nice!
This kind of talk really makes my point about your insecurity quite well. Insecure racism thrives on generalities. Thanks!
2. “Where are the righteous Korean women who will address contemporary issues of society on its own terms instead of the legions of opportunistic whores who exacerbate and inflame the problems even more?”
I see, you’re calling any Korean women who dates a white man a “whore.” Thank you, thank you, Netizen Kim! You’re doing all my heavy lifting!! No need for comment on that, but I love how you glorify — even deify — Korean women who would never (horrors!) date a white man. You come from a long line of foaming-at-the-mouth Korean racists who demand that the Korean “blood-line” stay pure and “holy.”
Hmm.. the holy, angelic Koreans. Maybe you’re right, Netizen Kim. Maybe we need to protect these stupid “whores” [your word, buddy] from evil white men, so they can come to the only men worthy of their attention: Korean men. Right? You mean like the raunchy group Korean male pedophiles who were having sex with young girls in Kiribati without condoms, giving them diseases (including AIDS), which led to an international rebuke by the Catholic Church, right?
In the end, I beseech you: by all means, continue posting! Whenever you post you simply betray insecurity, bitterness, and deep engrained racism that is very easy to expose. Indeed, it is obvious that to make stupid statements, for you, is self-fulfilling because of the very fact that these issues are not about debating contemporary issues. For you, Netizen Kim, these issues are directly wired into the question of your own personal manhood. Read: you and countless millions of Korean men are immature teenagers who were never taught that they are good enough, whether they compare to western men or not.
Finally, as I mentioned before, I am very glad all Koreans are not like you.
Perhaps these ATEK people should target this sort of libel since it most directly concerns them.
This sort of thing should concern any foreigner though because the sort of thought, as demonstrated by Pressian, is an insidious poison. Once we think such of English teachers, it is a small step to consider other foreigners as being similar, especially if those foreigners are seen as having some advantage in money or in love, but then we are describing envy — one of the seven deadly sins. Perhaps the Catholic Church here should denounce these sort of press habits since they are the lowest expression of humanity that degrade a society.
Netizen Kim,
We cry racism about these articles because they are quite clear in their condemnation of teachers in general, and not individual teachers. To use your own example, would it have been appropriate for Korean newspapers to publish articles about the sexual deviance of ALL Carlyle Group employees? Of course not. That would be retarded: judging all of a group based on the actions of one member. But for some reason, English teachers are fair game for ridiculous generalizations.
In this case, it’s even worse, because the charges being leveled at one and implied to many are sketchy at best. An ex-girlfriend is the primary source, and she claims to have overheard something about how teachers see themselves as “vampires.” Forgetting for a moment how absurd it would be to smear thousands of teachers based on the hearsay comments of one, I find the claim itself to be a bit suspect. In all my years here, I have indeed interacted with a handful (fewer than a dozen of the hundreds I’ve met) who I would say legitimately fit the Korean media’s stereotype of sexual predator. And none of them ever saw themselves as such. Teachers do not see themselves as “vampires;” rather, that is how we are seen by the lefty media. In short, if they were going to blatantly lie and put words into some teacher’s mouth, this is exactly what I would imagine a Korean smear artist would say. If anything, teachers in Korea see themselves as victims of Korean society, not the other way around (though I think the teacher are wrong there, but that’s for another thread).
Netizen Kim, No matter how you try to window dress the issue, it is all about race. The concept thereof in your homeland, in case you missed it runs thus, Korean>Non-Korean. Still, I am intrigued that you find it a class issue yet failed to demonstrate why in any particular way. The only manner in which I could fathom that is if the bourgeoisie latte-sipping left of Pressian are to be considered working class? More likely they are the pampered brats of the poisonous 386 generation.
Netizen Kim -
You must be one of the few Korean Americans in the US who has never had any experience with racism, because you don’t seem to have a clue about what it is.
No this has nothing to do with class – the stereotype applied to Western Professors is the same one that is regularly applied English teachers by the Korean media. English teachers make lower middle class salaries in Korea. For the most part, the upper reaches of Korean society have been closed to Westerners here.
And since when does someone have to put down all other races equally to make a racist argument? That’s silly. As most of us are aware, the racist stereotypes about different groups of racial minorities, like Westerners in Korea, vary according to the group.
And not everyone necessarily likes being objectified as an exotic sex toy. There are some similarities here in the sexual racial stereotypes of black men in America and the Korean racial stereotypes being spread in the media about white men in Korea. Portraying someone as some kind of sex animal is not a way to respect them.
Granfalloon is absolutely correct – Peter Chung was singled out and criticized as an individual. But in this case we don’t know who the Hongdae foreigners were – the author labels a whole group as suspect based on an anecdotal story. Ridiculous.
Can you imagine a newspaper story in the US putting down all Latinos because one or two anonymous Latino Professors allegedly behaved inappropriately.
It’s racist newspaper stories like this one that make life harder for all westerners living in Korea.
It’s fine for the Korean left to criticize the English racket.. good for them. But painting racist stereotypes about racial minorities is garbage. Any decent leftist should care about human rights, about the right of all people to be treated with basic respect. Any who resort to racism really have no place with the left. They are truly fascist.
The double standards here are just too much… the fact that 90% of Korean international marriages are between Korean men and foreign women – yet nobody criticizes that. The incredible proliferation of Love Hotels, Room Salons, Dalam joojums, Tabangs, etc with parking lots full of upscale black sedans… most likely the cars of highly paid, married Korean men paying women for sex – yet nobody talks about that.
The great majority of foreigners who work hard and contribute to Korea deserve better than this.
That’s a lot of baggage nitwitizenkim is carrying. Gotta be a reason for such extremist notions, right? Could it have something to do with his momma and the men she’s been with? Wouldn’t be surprised to learn of abandonment by a Korean father, years of selling juice by the mother, and ultimately marriage to and a green card from foreign “dork”. Note his use of “dork”, which is also slang for penis, for foreigners; there’s a lot of conflict going on in his mind. Betcha nitwitizenkim was teased quite a bit by the other gyopos, too. Explains his über Korean compulsive defense of idealized Koreaness.
“East Asian nations are homogenous nations”
NK you have either a very limited definition of east asia, or a tremendous lack of knowledge of the multi ethnic make up of many east asian countries.
“Finally, as I mentioned before, I am very glad all Koreans are not like you.”
That’s the whole point Seoulfood he’s not korean, he’s korean-american with very little knowledge or experience of modern korea, but hey I’m not a fluent korean speaker so I’m am totally unqualified to comment on korea.
Ah yes, when all else fails, resort to ad hominem.
The expat doth protest and whine too much.
Unfortunately, the conduct of one or two foreigners is representative, whether you like it or not, of the whole bunch. That is one of the realities of being a minority. Deal with it.
Secondly, you all seem to operate under the general assumption that your own shit never stinks. I operate under the assumption that all creatures, and yes, even myself, are all fallen creatures.
Seoulfood, for someone who does not like the fact that the Korean press reports negative things about foreigners you seem all too eager to smear Koreans, especially Korean men, as if that’s a defense. Every time there is some example of Waeguk motherfuckerishness in the media, there is some variation of “Koreans do it too!” The tu quoque argument is getting really old and tiresome, don’t ya think? It is the clearest sign of defensiveness over the indefensible. Grow up, stop whining, and learn to take some responsibility.
And finally, fellows, your DICK is a very poor reference point for understanding reality. All the arguments I’ve heard stems from the point of view of the privilege you want to afford your dick. You can’t blame it all on racism….quite often the problem is YOU.
It’s disappointing that this article appeared at Pressian, which I think is a decent and moderate press. I met into this article at another bulletain board. While reading, I saw “Pressian”and doubted my eyes and dashed into the end to find it’s really from Pressian. Gosh.
Not ad hominem at all. You seem ill informed.
“It is because for the most part there is a diminished sense of community in the West.”
Most people in Korea don’t know who their neighbors are. That’s to be expected when you live in large apartment complexes.
“In the mainstream Korean society, courtship between man and woman is still governed for the most part by ritualistic protocol (meetings, arrangements, “sohn”, etc) under the oversight of family and close friends.”
I can understand how you would think that if your only point of reference is old Korean TV dramas and whatever stories your parents told, but, nowadays, that is only true for a minority of people, such as families who are members of the Unification Church.
“You can’t blame it all on racism….quite often the problem is YOU.”
Again, it’s racism. Half of the guys I work with don’t even drink and the other half are married. We don’t go out whoring every night, or any night for that matter, like you seem to suggest.
Deliberately disingenuous NK you know very well the issue isn’t that “Koreans do it too!”, they do it more!!! The issue is the attention given to it if a foreigner does it, they’re seriously evil and only out to corrupt poor innocent korean girls, like getting a girl isn’t a serious hobby for korean guys too. Have you, a foreigner, ever experienced the clubs and bars in Hongdae/Sinchon?
“Seoulfood, for someone who does not like the fact that the Korean press reports negative things about foreigners you seem all too eager to smear Koreans, especially Korean men, as if that’s a defense. Every time there is some example of Waeguk motherfuckerishness in the media, there is some variation of “Koreans do it too!” The tu quoque argument is getting really old and tiresome, don’t ya think? ”
Thanks buddy, that’s a new one: “Waeguk motherfuckerishness.” I guess on the schoolgirl insult scale of 1-10 that would be about a 5.6. Way to go!
But yeah, ahem, it’s called ‘HYPOCRISY.’ You might want to look it up. And it decidedly does not work when one is trying to make intelligent argument. Cheers.
You see, NetizenKim, there are three main problems with this sorry excuse for “journalism.”
1. It is inaccurate;
2. It is racist and general; and, finally,
3. It is hypocritical
1. INNACURATE.
We have no idea at all what the true context and circumstances were for any of this nonsense in the article. Did you read the comments? Koreans are also complaining about how sloppy and silly this stuff is. They are embarrassed! I would be also if this was an American paper doing the same thing; Haha: you do not seem to mind at all! Well, you should. It’s really sloppy, ugly journalism. If anything, this kind of garbage should make you feel ashamed that Korean journalism is still so far behind anything in the West, where relentless pursuit of the truth in reporting is aggressively enforced — and honored above any personal bias.
2. RACIST AND GENERAL.
The main hallmark of racism — indeed, the thing that makes it racism, is a voluntary acceptance of the falsehood that all people of one physicality act the same. No one doubts for a minute that there are goofy foreigners in Korea. But when one levels accusations as venomous and vile as this sorry excuse for a news article does, then there is the profound responsibility to make a very powerful and clear distinction between those who are doing something negative, and the majority who are not doing something negative. This majority may look physically the same; they may wear the same clothes and go to the same places; they may have the same jobs. But responsible, intelligent people take pains to make the clear distinction here.
This “news” website did not. That makes them, professionally – speaking, just a few steps up from the local junior-high school newsletter. Again, profoundly silly; Koreans should be ashamed.
3. HYPOCRITICAL.
But here is the hummer with so much of the Korean hyper-criticism of alleged foreigner activities in Korea towards the women. It is grotesquely hypocritical.Millions of Korean men are daily in either room salons, girly bars where you can have a cuddle (or two), or massage parlors making use of the paid services of young female prostitutes from whom they demand all kinds of gross, nasty services.
I mean, really NetizenKim — do you expect foreigners to respect the authority of this group of people to speak to them about there sexual morality?! I mean, REALLY. [this should be a skit on the Saturday Night Live "REALLY?!" segment]. And you guys are all pissy about a few foreigners in Hongdae hanging out with some Korean women? LOL! It is really, really humorous when you think of the EXTREME HYPOCRISY.
So: Inaccurate, racist, hypocritical arguments do not win with intelligent audiences. Sorry ’bout that. And when someone makes an argument about another race that is not only hypocritical, but incorrect, many people will speak out. You just don’t seem to be able to get past your own insecurity to the truth here; but that is your problem.
I for one in no way submit to your racist innuendo.
Finally, here’s a nice sample of some of your nonsense:
“And finally, fellows, your DICK is a very poor reference point for understanding reality. All the arguments I’ve heard stems from the point of view of the privilege you want to afford your dick. You can’t blame it all on racism….quite often the problem is YOU.”
Oh, really?!
You are the first person to bring up the subject of genitalia on the thread, buddy!! I have not said one thing about any sexual privileges I have with anyone. When I date any woman (and I can easily date most any one that I want), I enjoy, respect, and honor her as a woman and friend … Korean, American, European, whatever : they deserve, first of all, my respect and my honor.
Listen up: I will not in any way be painted into your twisted, racist concept about foreign men who live in Korea and occasionally date Korean women. You’ve obviously drunk the Kool-aid that the Korean mass-media forces people to drink about foreign men. I am not an object of random scorn for insecure Korean men to use to feel better about themselves — I am a human being. And I am here living and working for reasons that extend way beyond my dating life, for God’s sake. I reject outright any of your false, malicious language about who I am as a man. I do not receive your hate, your need to put me down, nor do I acknowledge or respect you as a man while at the same time you can believe such inaccurate things about two whole groups of people: foreign men and Korean women who happen to be attracted to foreign men. If you remember, NetizenKim, you called these Korean women — without batting an eye — “whores.”
Wow.
Again, I find you and your lot to be gaping with insecurity.
All Korean men are not like you, thank God.
Good day.
Robert, no wonder you are blessing the Pressian and Korea Beat for putting out the content. Posting this stuff is like pitching raw meat to a pack of wolves. (whoops, no offense to NK’s avatar).
“Posting this stuff is like pitching raw meat to a pack of wolves. (whoops, no offense to NK’s avatar).”
I think seoulfood123 just made it his bitch. LOL
Shame on Pressian, of course. But shame on anyone who has been reading this site for years and expects anything but the same tired tropes, cliches, half-digested social theories and thinly-disguised racialist blather from Netizen Kim. We have seen his reactionary oevre again and again. His is one game that will never be raised.
#32 doktoforever:
The incredible proliferation of Love Hotels, Room Salons, Dalam joojums, Tabangs, etc with parking lots full of upscale black sedans… most likely the cars of highly paid, married Korean men paying women for sex – yet nobody talks about that.
Actually, dokto, the Korean press does talk about that at length. Look at any “Sports Section” of Korean newspapers (we get ‘em here too in the US) or even the Monthly Chosun Magazine.
The Expat continues to be an amusing creature. Unable to read Hangul, ignorant of the wider Korean language media, they seize upon the odd coverage of “Waeguk gone Wild” relayed on a blog (translated, of course) and think the Man is out to get him.
#44 Slim
…but the same tired tropes, cliches, half-digested social theories and thinly-disguised racialist blather
Well, it’s good to see you again too, Slim. How have you been?
What’s tired and cliched is that the Charisma Man routine never seems to go out of style in Korea, from the looks of things.
Here’s what I don’t understand about this particular case. In the West, if a professor wants the company of a young lady, it’s usually a sugar daddy arrangement. He provides her with financial assistance, she provides sex, everyone’s happy. In Korea, apparently, these dumb bitches will go out of their way to be their “tourist guide, interpreter, and finally sexual partner”. It’s enough to give pause to any reasonable person and go “WTF?”
Let’s cut to the chase. Despite all the indignation about xenophobia, nationalism, racism, yaddy yaddy yada common in the Dept of White Boys as an Oppressed Minority Studies that is the Expat blog world, the benefits of White Privilege continues to outweigh “racism”, which is largely imaginary. A reasonable person wonders, if it’s so bad in Korea, and Koreans are such a mean bunch, why do they insist on staying? It is because the lure of Affirmative Action pussy is too great. Asian women are world renown for running a constant, on-going Affirmative Action of Pussy for White Boys, at the expense of the basic dignity of both Asian men and women.
In the context of Korean society, the position of teacher or professor is one of respect and propriety, unlike in the West. So the notion of foreign professors, hired to enhance the reputations of their host universities, behaving like over-aged frat boys in places like Hongdae is doubly damning. Throw in hard drugs into the mix and we have ourselves a bona-fide scandal by any measure.
At some level, I cannot blame the Engrish teacher nor the professors. This is an unfortunate side-effect of some systemic problems within Korean society. The Engrish teaching racket continues to be a flawed market that expends good money for mediocrity.
#29 R Elgin:
…especially if those foreigners are seen as having some advantage in money or in love, but then we are describing envy — one of the seven deadly sins.
You fail to mention Pride and Lust. But you bring up a mighty point. Let’s talk about Envy.
The Engrish teacher is often a temporary guest worker, sometimes illegal, an immigrant at best. In the US, we also have such people.
In the US, we have nativist citizens who belly-ache over the fact that the State provides medical care, schooling, and driver’s licenses to working class Hispanics who toil to pick our fruit and butcher our meat in the slaughterhouses. We have Angry White Guys who can’t stand the fact that certain classes of people get special preferences in universities and workplace, also known as Affirmative Action.
It is a most ignoble thing to be envious about, the little crumbs that befall the truly underprivileged and marginalized by the White majority in the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
I myself am no angel and Political Correctness is not my forte.
If I am to be envious about something, it might as well be over the Politics of Pussy. Sexual politics is one of those few areas of an otherwise civil life where our most primeval animal instincts, hard-wired by millions of years of evolution, are acknowledged and given the most space for the freest expression.
#40 Arghaeri
Have you, a foreigner, ever experienced the clubs and bars in Hongdae/Sinchon?
No. But it sounds like a fascinating place to explore and deserving of my special attention. Seoulfood is right. If one is to pick a medium with which to portray the ever popular “Waeguks gone Wild”, the newspaper is a poor one because it is beholden to a standard journalistic integrity. A better format would be reality TV style gonzo filming. If done right, it can be a huge success. I like being in the thick of taboo and controversy.
seoulfood123: loser.
Kim: arguing with loser.
Marmot, are you still going to tell me with a straight face that Koreans don’t treat Western English teachers like dirt?
Wait, aren’t you the guy who admits his Korean is at the level of a five-year-old?
I mean, there are quite a few expats (and non-Korean non-expats, such as myself) who run rings around you in Korean ability.
You got that backwards, chief.
Fair enough. I say between Cho Seung-hui and “Jiverly” Voong/Wong (see, Betty Brown was RIGHT), I’ve got your number.
Deal with it, vending machine boy.
Independently of race, location, class, orientation, etc.: any man who claims not to like this when it happens is either a liar or doesn’t have his dick screwed on right.
No, I think it depends on who’s doing it.
Alot of us prefer to read more interesting Korean media,related to economics or politics, rather than the Sports Newspapers, which mainly have news about Korea’s minor league level sports leagues and ‘talents, and according to NetKim, the love hotel industry. I’ve spent over a decade reading articles in Korean, Net Kim.
If these guys broke the law they should be punished, but the author is not interested in these two individuals – he wants to perpetuate an inaccurate racist stereotype.
Well, I have a hard time believing that it can be properly called racist. I think it would make more sense to claim that it’s against “white english teachers” and leave it at that. I mean, koreans love hollywood movies and american tv shows, no? And most of these movies depict white characters in a central role with every positive trait you can imagine. Also, korean women by and large have a generally favorable or at least a neutral perception of white men, if I’m not mistaken, and they comprise 50% of the population.
I mean it can’t be properly described as “perpetuating a racist stereotype”.
…but 1% of the media, apparently.
It’s just not true. There is no negative stereotype of white people in general among koreans. There’s every reason to believe that the stereotypes are nothing but positive, in fact. Also, if you think that stereotypes are bad in both negative and positive directions (which some people do believe, I’m not sure I’m one of them), then this specific subset of english teachers getting caught doing drugs or being unfairly targeted for womanizing isn’t such a bad thing after all in terms of balancing out the stereotypes.
Drugs are awesome and so is womanizing. Anyone who says otherwise is a whiny little girl.
A nice little privilege, ain’t it? You should count yourself lucky.
“We are vampires.”
I can picture some lame, pasty, goth reject lulzing it up in Seoul. These guys are probably ass clowns and deserving of any ridicule we can heap on them personally. The only mistake they make is in extending generalizations about the specific breed of idiot foreigner, which can indeed be found in Hongdae, to the expat population as a whole. I remember seeing some of these self-proclaimed playboys in the clubs in Hongdae. They get good and sauced and then try to pick up literally EVERY girl in the club, getting shot down 3 dozen times in a row before finally receiving some tentative attention from the 4’11″ 60kg girl with a messed up family life and severe self esteem issues. Way to go there Brad Pitt.
NetizenKim,
Israel and China are two of the most openly racist states on earth. What do you see in them that Korea should want to emulate?
One day whites will no longer be the majority in America. One day people with four Korean grandparents will no longer be the majority in Korea. If someone has a problem with this he’s a racist idiot in my books.
If Pressian etc., didn’t write it, I would have to create it myself
Why? Because a wanker at Pressian wrote a shit piece about foreign professors?
Israel has been cited as racist.
Godwin’s law just millimeters away from invocation.
LOL. Way to go KrZ! Lessee how you did on the schoolgirl insult scale of 1-10 on each of your immature insults (which, by the way, as we all know, make you look intelligent and secure in your manhood).
Ok, here goes:
1. “lame, pasty, goth reject”
7.5!!!
Wow, KrZ, I really like how you put this particular schoolgirl insult together. Subtly combining the rich history of Gothic past, and connecting it with the skin tone of these big fat white losers. Nice! That would impress even Brittany Spears!! But the cherry is when you put “lame” at the front. Every cheerleader in California is proud of you for that one.
2. “idiot foreigners”
5.5
KrZ, I don’t mean to be discouraging here, but this has been used quite a bit. But do not despair! For in your admirable determination to deliver schoolgirl insults with ever greater dexterity and intelligence, in a way that will fully prove your refined sense of society and humankind, well…. we all slip from time to time. But I have to be honest, buddy: “idiot foreigner” does roll off of the tongue pretty nice. 5.5 is well deserved.
2. “ass clowns”
7.0
Yep. A solid 7 here!!
I’m not going to lie, KrZ. You are an advanced schoolgirl insult meister. Kudos! Beautiful, devastating, and profoundly beautiful in its lack of substance. Cheers on this one, mate!
—
I love it. KrZ is obviously not mature enough to talk about this issue on an intelligent level, so he defaults to schoolgirl insults. But then he continues with that most typical of bullshit all insecure Korean men keep tucked away and default to in an emergency:
“White guys are big losers!”
Haha.
All Korean men keep this little lie tucked away for catastrophic self-esteem emergencies. These emergencies arise when all of their schoolgirl insults have been exhausted. They come to the end of their intellectual rope, get completely frustrated and angry…. and explode. Then they spew all kinds of crap that just serves no purpose other than to betray their insecurity ever more obviously, deeply, and profoundly — which is, of course, my whole point.
“Pressian learned from one of Prof. B’s ex-girlfriends, a Korean, that they sent text messages reading, “we can do anything in Seoul,” “we are vampires,” and “when are you going to take another girl’s virginity?” Prof. B used his ex-girlfriend’s name to sign a contract for cellphone service.
[...]
Lee Jeong (pseudonym), who used to know Prof. B, said, “I have seen white men living in Korea take advantage of Koreans’ preconceptions of them. They basically follow the English-speaking white man and engage in a baseless friendship.”
Lee added, “when they meet a Korean woman they know she will be their tourist guide, interpreter, and finally sexual partner, and they use the Hongdae clubs as the way to meet Korean women. They come here to teach and conduct research and this is how they behave. It’s shocking.”
I know the particulars of the story. Ready for the surprise? Pressian’s source, the former girlfriend, and Lee Jeong, the acquaitance and “expert’ on foreign professor behavior are( ready for it?) the SAME PERSON! No! I’m shocked! Shocked to find gambling going on here.
She has been trying to peddle this story to other outlets that wanted it but couldn’t get anyone else to corroborate this woman’s claims. Pressian, apparently had no such qualms, and, in fact wrote the story to make it look like Lee was in fact doing just that: coroborating the former GF’s testimony. If this doesn’t make you mistrust the Korean media in matters of foreigner muckraking, then I hope you continue to enjoy your comma. She is the jilted, angry former girlfriend who is now suddenly concerned for the welfare of her sister Koreans, after herself having ridden the white horse halfway to the Great Wall. That’s rich.
“There is no negative stereotype of white people in general among koreans.”
JW you clearly know very little about living in korea, perhaps you should come and live here for a while. There doesn’t have to be a negative stereotype per se, only negative actions. Koreans generally are behave in a negative fashion to anyone not korean.
Oddly this sometimes negative behaviour is sometime parallel to saying how much they like/admire another people.
Really?
Hey, boss, you started it by posting this piece, remember.
Quickly skimming over the above nonsense, I found one gem:
…the West, where relentless pursuit of the truth in reporting is aggressively enforced — and honored above any personal bias.
In an age of Newsweek and Time vying to outdo one another in putting beatific pictures of The Messiah on their covers, an era in which Chris Matthews, Keith Olbermann and most of the rest of the lamestream media are participating in a competition over who can be the most obsequious to The Printer, thanks for the massive chuckle.
“Really?”
Perhaps “generally” is too strong, but I would say frequently is reasonably fair. As I noted, I have on occasions noted dichotomy sometimes between certain friendly behaviour, outward appearance, and other actions.
There most definitely appears to be a pride in being a good host, showing newcomers around etc, but not always the same reaction amongst those living and in particular working amongst them.
I have seen extremly kind and generous behaviour toward immigrant workers, whislt at the same time denying them certain rights and benefits to which they are entitled under korean law, when pointed out justified by its Ok they’re not one of us.
Similarly, a friendly attitude as long as experienced worker kept his head below the parapet and did what junior korean staff told them, and then frozen out when advising said inexperienced staff.
I term this the poodle effect, just like Bush/Blair. Bush loves Blair says nice things about him, pets him once in a while as long as hes a good boy and does what he says, whilst at the same time has no hesitation in screwing him if its to his advantage.
“Quickly skimming over the above nonsense, I found one gem:”
Yeh, coming from the world of the red top tabloid press in the UK, I had to smile at that too!!
I actually though it was so ridiculous, that it must be a joke, so I didn’t comment.
“In the West, if a professor wants the company of a young lady, it’s usually a sugar daddy arrangement.”
Typically what in korea is called a professor is only a “lecturer”, and frequently not old enough or rich enough to be a sugar daddy.
Gotta love the complex existence of White people in Korea: They’re hired and despised for the same reason, their skin complexion. Honestly, most white men are not nearly as angry as the blogosphere makes it seem.
Some white men, the non-insecure ones looking to justify their Korean girlfriends in the eyes of Koreans and gyopos, actually milk their “Whiteness” for all its worth and don’t feel ashamed about it all. As one White guy said to me: It’s great to be a White guy ANYWHERE in the World.
Is that not true, and should we collectively shed a tear for the “racism” and “human rights violations” tossed toward the way of the White Man?
@NetizenKim
So how come Gyopos get a pass for all the promiscuous sex they get up to?
Is that a class issue too?
@silver,
I’m not going to answer for NK about the class issue, but as a gyopo, we get plenty of flack for being alleged “playboys,” not a good thing in Korea. Just simply being from the States was reason for many native Korean women to think I’d bagged like 20+ girls (this was revealed during 소개팅 or 미팅) or for others to be skeptical, just assuming I was a 바람둥이.
And I don’t know if gyopos, aside from the rich ones, have all that much promiscuous sex. I only wish I was a Peter Chung! Of my many gyopo friends in Korea, I’d say there were a small minority of promiscuous ones (all males), and they were all very, very good-looking and earning 5+ million won a month.
What we DON’T mostly do as a group is horde Korean women in 이태원 or 홍대. In fact, I feel like the 교포s mostly congregrate in places like Circle in Apgu, where **shock** basically, under normal circumstances, all non-Koreans are denied entry.
To clarify Paragraph 3, I think part of the reason why many gyopos avoid the media scrutinization (though, really, how many articles/stories are out there? I feel like EVERY article or news story that runs on this topic is eaten up by the ravenous foreigner blogopshere) is because they somewhat avoid the foreigner areas that might be targets, not only for the media but also for shady women.
JW wrote:
“There is no negative stereotype of white people in general among koreans.”
Well, those were not the sentiments expressed in the article. The message there was that foreign white men were too immoral to be employed as Professors in Korea.
“They come here to teach and conduct research and this is how they behave. It’s shocking.”
‘They” here means white foreign men as a group. JW and T Song seem to be assuming that race relations in the US are replicated everywhere else around the world, but no, in fact, this is a different country, and power relations vary by location. Being seen as promiscuous and immoral could help you score with a certain type of woman at a bar in Itaewon, but it could also hurt your career, if you have aspirations beyond being a Hagwon instructor for the rest of your life.
And also being a member of the “Model Minority” is a similar challenge to Asian Americans in the U.S.
I don’t see the correlation with boozing and promiscuous carrying over to “career” types in Korea, as I wonder what all of the mostly White Male exports from international companies like UBS or Citi or even Samsung deal with. I’ve known my fair share of bankers, journalists, and white guys working at Samsung, and they are given elevated status (especially compared to their Korean peers, who work longer hours, for lower pay and don’t get housing/other cost of living expenses paid).
Most of these “negative” stereotypes are saved for foreigner professors and English teachers. If you want a serious career in Korea, and you are a White male, I seriously doubt your options are limited (simply getting the cushy English Teaching jobs, in part, because you are White), as you have already beat the system, to a certain extent.
To clarify Paragraph 3, I don’t know that coming over here to be a hagwon teacher has much, if any, career advancement. Look at how many — though not all — White male teachers came out to Korea. While surely they met four-year degree requirements, to what extent did they have much more than their Caucasian looks and the ability to speak the language they grew up with? For every burned out lawyer or I-banker, with actual skills that could be used in Korea, there are 10 teachers who are in Korea paying off student loans and preparing for grad school; some Australians or Kiwis in the city for an “extended holiday”; out simply for a new experience.
Even after 5 or 6 years of English teaching, aside from the small clusterfuck of the English private language school teaching World, I wonder what “career” you actually have? I knew a gyopo female, who was making serious bank (6 million won/month), was in her early 30s and had been an English teacher for 7 years. I asked her when she was planning on heading back to the States, and she said, “never,” because she had no applicable skills back in the States.
So to complain about a lack of upward mobility in Korea, crippled by the ASS ceiling of teaching at hagwons as a White male, seems only…logical? rationale? just? You’re an English teacher…and as I am also a former hagwon teacher (2+ years), I question really how much teaching goes on.
#74 silver surfer:
So how come Gyopos get a pass for all the promiscuous sex they get up to?
In my book, gyopo males do not get a pass for no-holds-barred promiscuous sex with Korean girls, whether in America or Korea. I actually condemn it. The ego and self-esteem of the average Korean girl is extremely fragile. It may leave a wide trail of damaged goods and produce a host of unintended and unforeseen social consequences that may drastically affect present and future generations.
I advise my fellow gyopos to take a trip to Amsterdam or seek other alternative means if they need to sow their wild oats or something.
Is that a class issue too?
Most definitely.
#75 t_song:
And I don’t know if gyopos, aside from the rich ones, have all that much promiscuous sex. I only wish I was a Peter Chung! Of my many gyopo friends in Korea, I’d say there were a small minority of promiscuous ones (all males), and they were all very, very good-looking and earning 5+ million won a month.
I will corroborate this, based upon the many anecdotes I’ve heard myself, that the most promiscuous gyopos tend to be the ones from rich families, possessed of superior credentials, and on some kind of fast track to material success (think “Ted” from Free Food for Millionaires). Fortunately, they are numerically negligible.
In the eyes of Korean womenfolk, one Peter Chung is roughly equivalent to one generic Engrish teaching whitey with a degree from a community college. Such is the power and extent of White Privilege. But don’t worry, it gets even better. Consider the findings of a recent Columbia University study:
http://www.volokh.com/posts/1176698878.shtml
For equal success with an African-American woman [relative to an African-American man], a Hispanic man needs to earn an extra $184,000 [in annual income]; a white man needs to earn an additional $220,000.
For equal success with a white woman [relative to a white man], an African-American needs to earn an additional $154,000; a Hispanic man needs $77,000; an Asian needs $247,000.
For equal success with a Hispanic woman [relative to a Hispanic man], an African-American man needs to earn an additional $30,000; a white man needs to earn an additional $59,000.
For equal success with an Asian woman [relative to an Asian man], an African-American needs no additional income; a white man needs $24,000 less than average; a Hispanic man needs $28,000 more than average.
I repeat: For equal success with an Asian woman [Relative to an Asian man]…a white man needs $24,000 less than average.
There it is. White privilege defined boldly in black and white.
Just in case anyone thought I was being tongue-in-cheek or facetious when I said: Asian women are world renown for running a constant, on-going program of Affirmative Action of Pussy for White Boys, at the expense of the basic dignity of both Asian men and women. in #45.
This is the sobering reality, the Freakonomics of the Darwinian struggle of the dating marketplace, for the common Asian-American male. We are like white guys, but without the white privilege; a minority, but with none of the benefits of being a minority in Politically Correct America according to its present state of multicultural/diversity doctrine. The Darwinian pressures on us, whether it be in academics, profession, mating, is always and consistently a little higher. We would do well to understand our reality with a minimum of delusion and learn to rapidly adapt and evolve.
“For equal success with an African-American woman [relative to an African-American man], a Hispanic man needs to earn an extra $184,000 [in annual income]; a white man needs to earn an additional $220,000.”
What kind of BS is that? Black chicks around here love white dudes, aggressively, as I myself have experienced in my journeys into the darker side of town.
“I actually condemn it. The ego and self-esteem of the average Korean girl is extremely fragile. It may leave a wide trail of damaged goods and produce a host of unintended and unforeseen social consequences that may drastically affect present and future generations.”
And this type of thinking is part of the reason why some Korean women see white guys as their ticket to living in a more normal society. Perhaps there are some Israeli and Chinese women who could empathise.
#82 Yu Bum Suk:
And this type of thinking is part of the reason why some Korean women see white guys as their ticket to living in a more normal society. Perhaps there are some Israeli and Chinese women who could empathise.
Well, I don’t know the particulars of China or Israel but I agree with you that Korea is not a “normal” society by any measure. It is partially a consequence of Korea’s unofficial mantra of “material success by any means necessary”. It exerts an extreme Darwinian pressure across the board in Korean society, the results of which manifests itself in myriad form, Engrish-mania being one of many examples.
I have noticed that many White guys suddenly turn into improbable feminists upon their arrival and stay in Korea. It is evident in their express outrage over seemingly ubiquitous prostitution, abundance of room salons, love motels, “special” barber-shops and such. Korean prostitution, for instance, happens to be a favorite staple here at the Hole. The Expat makes it his business to become an expert on these matters. When it comes to the exposé and self-righteous indignation over the sins of sexism of Korean men…oh boy, White dudes are often loud and outspoken. One doesn’t know whether to laugh at the inherent irony of White guys as feminazis or cry over what this implies about Korean society itself. However, it is largely a ploy. The “liberation” of the Korean woman with pseudo-feminist characteristics by White dudes is his way of legitimizing his “ownership” and “rights” to Korean women. I have coined a term for this: the “White Dude’s Burden”. A red-blooded male with feminist pretensions is actually a wolf in sheep’s clothing; ultimately he’s really out to just score some pussy. Either that or he’s probably gay. We already figured this out (sort of) in America during the 60′s social movements (women’s rights/sexual revolution/free love) and is pretty much why all that ended up in the shitter eventually. White men’s relations with repressed Korean women in patriarchal Korea are like the 60′s movements writ small. Naive women with little or no experience with the opposite sex have difficulty understanding this because, well, they’re not men. Only women who have learned things the hard way via a long process of trial and error realize this and they become jaded and cynical (ie. the aforementioned hardened Western women with chips on their shoulders).
I believe that Korea society is very patriarchal and sexist still. Many observers think it has something to do with Confucianism. I do not believe that is so. Classical Confucianism established the framework of relational hierarchy between man and woman, ruler and subject, parent and child, master and slave, etc. However, it also it also stresses reciprocity. Meaning these relationships are also to be governed by a code of virtue. “Equality” is not recognized in Confucianism; a man is destined to lead over a woman but the man is also supposed to be virtuous. Hundreds of years later, during Qin Dynasty’s bid to unite all of China, Legalism emerged and took root. Eventually, Legalism seeped in to Korea as well and became a fixture in Korean society since the 1300′s. Legalism emphasizes a strict automatic and mechanical adherence to long established custom and rules. It gutted the original relational framework of the imperative towards virtue. It left the “weaker” parties of the relational balance at a disadvantage; reciprocity became a one-way street. Man did not necessary have to be virtuous but woman still had to obey him according to the rules and custom. Likewise for ruler and subject, etc. In any case, Confucianism did not leave behind any meaningful mechanisms to enforce virtue beyond a superficial ethics based on shame or loss of face. This is due to the basic Confucian axiom that Man is inherently good. If Man is inherently good, there is really no compulsion towards developing a robust system of checks and balances. This in contrast to Christianity which holds that Man is inherently sinful. Post-Confucian Legalism is also also echoed in the Christian theological understanding of the dangers of emphasizing the letter of the law over the spirit. When we revisit the words of Christ within this context of comparative cultural study, he being the original feminist at a time when such notion was other-worldly alien, telling the Pharisees (Legalists) “those of you without sin cast the first stone” when they brought the adulteress before him, we understand the meaning of “the letter of the law versus spirit”, the inherent sinfulness of Man, and perhaps even feminism in a new way. Western civilization owes an enormous debt of gratitude towards Christianity, which has presided over the agony of transforming pagan barbarians into Europeans for nearly two millenia. While Western civilization has been experiencing a liberation of the mind and questioning authority since Galileo, up to 70% of Koreans were slaves (nobi) as late as the 19th century. Present-day Koreans are only one generation removed from peasantry and the slave mentality is still felt in the modern Korean psyche.
The trials of modern times made some things worse. Endemic Korean prostitution, for example, is a legacy of Japanese imperialism and US military occupation.
The fact that Korean women see white guys as their ticket to a more normal existence is an expression of this slave mentality. The fact that Koreans are compelled to learn Engrish at huge monetary and social cost is also an expression of this slave mentality. This is not the behavior of an independent, free, and self-possessed people. Rapid industrialization and economic development has also meant that that the gap between material progress and social evolution is wide, which produces stresses.
Feminism and gender equality is also a function of gender relations as it relates to the Darwinian mating struggle. When distilled to its most fundamental state: Men prize physical beauty and sexual appeal in the opposite. Women prize earning potential, power, and prestige likewise. The former can be denoted as ‘sexism’ and the latter ‘reverse-sexism’. Each has a positively reinforcing and synergistic escalating effect on the other. This Darwinian struggle exists in a heightened state in Korea. It is one of the reasons why cosmetic surgery is so endemic (another slave mentality). Sexism exists in direct proportion to reverse-sexism. Sexism exists as a given. Women can fight sexism and demand more equality. But women forfeit legitimacy to claims for egalitarianism when they engage in reverse-sexism. In a land where a Korean man has to have graduated from one of the top Seoul universities and be a doctor, lawyer, or at least a Chaebol man in order to be considered marriageable material in proper society is NOT going to be also a place that is brimming with gender-based egalitarian enlightenment. The fact that Korean men are obliged to spend three years in the military, while women are free to do whatever it is that women do (travel the world, spending money on clothes as a “parasitic” single, what have you) also doesn’t help the egalitarian cause.
Mothers can start saying no to the extreme nature of Korean education, yet another Darwinian struggle of survival of the fittest which puts children through a torture system, costs enormous sums, and even splits up families in the name of raising children in English speaking countries. Women can start saying no to cosmetic surgeries and learn to celebrate their natural beauty. Women can be the catalyst to much needed social reform in Korea on so many different levels but we don’t really see that happening yet. And this is the inherent tragedy. The White man is not the “savior” for anything and any woman who thinks like that is a slave.
This article is not aimed at your usual English teacher types but the universities’ attempt at hiring foreigners and raising the “foreigner quota” is somehow having a negative effect of attracting the “low quality crowd”..
The Koreans should note that a difference exists – Korean *professors* are usually settled with a wife, children, cars and in-laws hanging nearby, as most marry young, some with already with babies during their PhD’s, whereas abroad, they tend to be permanent single types living a prolonged life of a student, well into their 40′s, still into having a good time…The brooding instinct seems to kick in later for a lot of the foreign academics compared to their Korean counterparts who are eager to settle down early….
Yo, Kim! [hi five! chest bump!]
Right on brutha of anutha culla! That’s what I’ve been trying to tell our white homies in Korea all this time: the problems with “English” in Korea are not their fault! Word.
I don’t think Korea is Darwinist at all. Darwinism is about survival of a species, not a culture, and in this respect Korea shows some decidedly anti-Darwinian trends. Economic protectionism is not a Darwinian trend when it’s counter-productive to a species’ improvement, for instance.
As for the stance many white men take when confronted by allegations of debauchery, for me it’s much more a matter of hypocrisy than feminism. While I believe women are entitled to equality of opportunity, I have no problem with whatever consensual relations adults wish to have. What I do have a problem with racists getting pissy over white guys dancing with Korean women at a club when at least some of those same guys inevitably pay for sex or feel-ups with strangers. Now, if some of those same guys call a woman a traitor because she’s walking down the road with her white husband, you can see how outrageous it becomes.
As for your view of the history of promiscuity and prostitution in Korea, I’ve read Andrei Lankov and you’re not going to snow-job me that easily.
Finally, when it comes to women’s mentalities I agree there’s a lot Korean women could do to make things easier for themselves. However, the fact that you see ‘damaged goods’ where I see no big deal is the reason why a white guy can be an escape hatch. It works for both sexes, of course. I have a divorced (male) Korean friend who was really interested in meeting up with a foreign women interested in marriage for the same reason (he finally got engaged to a Korean – fortunately, given his desperation not to be single).
Yuna, there’s some truth in what you say (I was pretty well one of those ‘career student’ types before I finally dropped out of my PhD programme). However there are plenty of family-type profs back in North America, too, along with many single profs who are more career-driven than anything else. Korea doesn’t attract them, or the more accomplished single types too. On the other hand, many of Korea’s best and brightest academics end up working in the west. Why is Korea so content to have such huge deficit in the brain-drain department? Because Korean universities don’t want to be very universal, it seems. If they did this would be one more naughty-white-guy issue that wouldn’t come up.
This discussion makes me remember what I’d said to the other Korean (male) students at a workshop dinner a few years back. Realizing that quite a famous person in my field had a position (ok, one of those 3 months a year type) at the Korean institution that was hosting the workshop and that he had a Korean wife, I told my Korean counterparts that “At least one’s got to give some credit to the Korean women for contributing to this field in Korea by bringing in the respected players. “(a bit of shock & aghast here). I’ve also seen quite a few old professors who have adopted Korean kids, who seem to feel a particular connection to the country.
Not much to be proud of, but then nothing to be ashamed of either, I guess.
In the end it doesn’t matter about the status of the foreigner. Even Mr. Foreign millionaire CEO is thought an English teacher by Koreans walking past.
That’s cuz most of those kids need a frickin’ haircut.
[hic]
Anyone else agree with this: the Feminist movement was the best thing to happen to men in a very, very long time?
Both of my immigrant parents work, and I grew up in a very politically correct American society in the 1990s, where everyone at Little League got a trophy (if my parents let me play baseball) and gender-specific classes like Home Ec and Shop Class were done away with. So, similar to how many in that 18 to 34 age range now have far more liberal and open-minded views on just about EVERYTHING compared to our parents (especially 2.0ers), I am quite for equal rights, for ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation.
So how was I blown away as an adult when I lived and Korean and stumbled across the concept of 강남아줌마, or how Dutch Pay is only a lofty “ideal” for many Korean women. Or how I met many mid-20 year old women in Korea who were blatant about wanting to get married, have a child, then stay at home–and go shopping and laze around in coffee shops. This is a very broad brushstroke over K-society, but after my nearly 3 years there, I came to an understanding that, well, this separation of power, while clearly going against my indoctrination from the more “liberalized” West, was at least practical.
I’ve watched shows like the real Housewives of New York or the O.C., but those are reserved for the top 1% of income earners, and frankly, you’ll see that type of behavior from wives at any country in the World. In Korea, I met plenty of women of all income levels, marrying all levels of income, taking on that stay-at-home mentality.
So as I started the message: Thank heavens for the Feminist movement!
I don’t quite get you, Song. How are you breaking down the Kor vs West, the traditional woman vs the liberated woman, the economically empowered vs the economically dependent…? Don’t be a pussy, spit it out. Which way is BETTER? And please skip references to TV shows on your local cable channel. See you in the morning!
Haha! References to TV shows on my local cable? Well, it’s on Bravo.
Oh, I love the prospects of dating and marrying a woman who far outpaces my own. I’d love to be a Mr. Mom and become a 강남아저씨.
What t_song is saying is that he likes feminism because it may potentially allow him to stay at home and not work while his woman brings home the bacon.
Nonsense. First, foreign employees do not get elevated status, and are in fact marginalized. They do not earn the huge bonuses and other perks that Korean management gets, and have none of the job security. They not only work the same long hours as their Korean counterparts, but they additionally have to be on the job 24 hours a day in the sense of having to deal with a particularly in-your-face foreign culture. Living and working in Korea is no picnic and you are simply continuing the work of this news report – extrapolating Kthe orean jealousy of Americans into wholly invalid criticisms.
Which *foreign* culture are you talking about, mister? Did you mean to refer to the NATIVE culture? These kind of mixups can get really really really really super duper annoying. Please be careful.
#84 Yuna:
This discussion makes me remember what I’d said to the other Korean (male) students at a workshop dinner a few years back. Realizing that quite a famous person in my field had a position
What is your field anyway, if you don’t mind me asking?
(ok, one of those 3 months a year type) at the Korean institution that was hosting the workshop and that he had a Korean wife, I told my Korean counterparts that “At least one’s got to give some credit to the Korean women for contributing to this field in Korea by bringing in the respected players. “(a bit of shock & aghast here).
Hey, I saw this sort of thing happening in an episode of Animal Kingdom once. The female ape attracts a “challenger” male from outside the group and then alpha male of the group thumps his chest and then shit happens…
Whether it’s at a dance club or a dry, boring academic convention, certain patterns never change.
For better or for worse, Asian civilization will continue to wield the mystical exotic powers of Oriental pussy to fulfill the Oriental’s fetish for the White man’s technology and knowledge. Especially with a neo-Cold War superpower rivalry heating up between China and America, Yellow Fever will be exploited in spy games.
But even so, the Oriental woman is still no Hadassah, the ultimate standard of a woman’s place amongst the affairs of men.
I’ve also seen quite a few old professors who have adopted Korean kids, who seem to feel a particular connection to the country. Not much to be proud of, but then nothing to be ashamed of either, I guess.
The wholesale trafficking of Korean babies abroad and Joy Luck Club feminism have one thing in common; perhaps they were justified at one point during Korea’s poverty stricken past. Now there is simply no excuse.
I read that Western families like Korean babies to adopt b/c they are “smarter.” I also read these social agencies get about $20,000 per child. It’s sad.
@t_song:
I have never heard of that idea. I have heard that Korean babies are preferred because they are healthier owing to Korea’s relatively high living standards and relatively comfortable orphanages. A large share of the adoption fees is given to orphanages to provide for the children who remain there.
That ad with the Drew Carey look-alike nuzzling up to a cute Asian girl is really annoying. I guess the come back with be any image of a grizzled 50 year old ajosshi nuzzling up to a 21 year old Vietnamese or Russian girl would be equally annoying. However, at least we don’t have to look at it at TMH…
Wang, if you’re a Firefox user, I recommend Ad Block Plus.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1865
Yes, I felt such shock when I went to Stockholm for the first time from London, having a conversation with a British guy I’d just met, sitting next to me on the plane, then to hear the stewardess asking him what he would like to drink in English and then turn to me and ask me in Swedish! It took me a while to figure out why…I felt embarrassment as I went back many times to visit and to stay for a few months, when I found out that there were so many Korean adoptees there (in Sweden). I agree no there is no excuse for babies being adopted abroad *now* , but I’ve come to get over my national embarrassment and hurt pride, because I have become good friends with an Korean adoptee from Beligium and somehow, feeling embarrassed about his situation made me feel like I was wronging him, if that makes any sense.
No, no shit happened. Just a bit of an embarrassed silence. (I just say things which is on everyone’s mind in some unlikely social situ because I haven’t grown up yet)
It was just a comment because it’s a discipline which hasn’t tended to attract women at all, Korean or otherwise..
#103 yuna:
I agree no there is no excuse for babies being adopted abroad *now* , but I’ve come to get over my national embarrassment and hurt pride, because I have become good friends with an Korean adoptee from Beligium and somehow, feeling embarrassed about his situation made me feel like I was wronging him, if that makes any sense.
There is a difference between having a value judgment on the wholesale export of babies and being friends with someone who was adopted. That person cannot help the fact he or she was adopted.
Korea cannot afford to lose babies. The government should encourage native adoption as a matter of policy by giving tax breaks to Korean families who adopt and other means of incentive.
How about women from SE Asia who come here as brides? Can they help the fact that they came here as brides through agencies? And if so how can I reconcile the view I have of those who made such choices, and being friends with them? It’s not so clear cut, Netizen Kim. I am a snob myself, but I’ve come to realize that the world is full of doctor pepper relationships, which are all shades of grey.
Going back to the adoption, I do agree that for various reasons (including my Belgian-Korean friend’s first hand account of his growing pains as an ugly duckling in a foreign land, and his disdain towards Korea which abandoned him) Koreans should adopt more, and also that they shouldn’t feel there is some stigma attached to raising an adopted kid.
But the reason shouldn’t solely be because we want to distinguish ourselves from the *third world* where another rainbow kid might get given the name Jolie-Pitt any time soon.
#106
How about women from SE Asia who come here as brides? Can they help the fact that they came here as brides through agencies? And if so how can I reconcile the view I have of those who made such choices, and being friends with them? It’s not so clear cut, Netizen Kim. I am a snob myself, but I’ve come to realize that the world is full of doctor pepper relationships, which are all shades of grey.
I am not saying we should be snobby or look down on people for being an adoptee or a Vietnamese bride. They need our compassion and understanding. But I would differentiate between people who are affected by a phenomenon and the phenomenon itself. The phenomenon we’re talking about here is human trafficking, which is a form of exploitation based on disparity in prosperity. Albeit adoption and international bride matchmaking tend to be benign forms of human trafficking compared to slavery or prostitution. Slavery or illegal prostitution is bad. But that doesn’t mean slaves or prostitutes are necessarily unworthy or that you cannot be friends with them.
Going back to the adoption, I do agree that for various reasons (including my Belgian-Korean friend’s first hand account of his growing pains as an ugly duckling in a foreign land, and his disdain towards Korea which abandoned him) Koreans should adopt more, and also that they shouldn’t feel there is some stigma attached to raising an adopted kid. But the reason shouldn’t solely be because we want to distinguish ourselves from the *third world* where another rainbow kid might get given the name Jolie-Pitt any time soon.
I think it is a social issue on both a moral and utilitarian basis. A country as prosperous as Korea that is still exporting babies is a derelict of responsibility. Even more so since Korea is a low-birth rate nation with a demographic pyramid profile that threatens to become very skewed.
No, it’s because they’re available – the same reason people are adopting Chinese babies, or for that matter Samoan, etc. American babies are just too hard to obtain.
I didn’t say I was looking down on the adoptees. I just felt embarrassed as a Korean to see so many Koreans adoptees, which I learned to get over.
While I agree with all of what you’ve written, I am curious as to why you think it is the country that’s responsible. I mean, in the wealthy West, there simply aren’t enough babies go around between those who want to adopt, and this is not due to what the country is doing but rather the choice made by the individual parents, right? And that is why they look for babies abroad.
Also, if you think that they are benign forms of human trafficking what do you think of the parents from overseas who want to adopt Korean babies, and what of the Korean men who go abroad to get brides? Do you also think of them as victims of the system?
I think there is a social welfare system of foster care and children’s homes which also suffer from some chequered past in the West, but really it’s the people themselves who have to change their views. Or, do you, like Jackie Chan, think that Korean people, like the Chinese, should be told what to do by the government?
Even though you’re stateside, it would help to watch some Korean dramas to gain a better appreciation of Korean culture. Social status and family are paramount. The adoptee brings no social bargaining chips to the table – no connections, no promise of wealth and the stigma of being viewed by society as rejected, cast-off damaged goods. To a people as socially self-conscious as Koreans, with intense feelings of inadequacy stemming from the internalized stigma of having been war-torn, vanquished and generally worthless, social status trumps all. Until this changes, orphans will never be welcomed.
No Yuna, blaming others and society for one’s personal choices is a thin excuse for the inability to accept the fact that one is responsible for his own choices.
That said, there are social pressures and contraints that it sometimes takes a great deal of courage to overcome if they can be overcome at all. For instance, a couple of generations ago in the U.S. interracial marriage was simply out of the question. Today it is not even questioned.
Those Korean men who seek foreign brides are thinking outside the box. However, I understand that they are still a relatively marginalized demographic – farmers in the abandoned countryside where women of marriagable age simply do not exist. This is far from accepted practice, as is adoption of other people’s cast-offs. And I doubt that this will change in the forseeable future because Koreans are essentially just too mother dominated to think for oneself.
“Nonsense. First, foreign employees do not get elevated status, and are in fact marginalized.”
Yes and no. To complicated to get into, but such a blanket statement is incorrect and not fair.
“They do not earn the huge bonuses and other perks that Korean management gets, and have none of the job security. ”
The Korean managers, at least at my company do get fat bonuses, but so do the Japanese and other Eurasian managers.
“They not only work the same long hours as their Korean counterparts,”
Have to disagree with you on that one.
” but they additionally have to be on the job 24 hours a day in the sense of having to deal with a particularly in-your-face foreign culture.”
Not in my line of work, and I work for a group of the same company you (claim you) used to work at.
“Living and working in Korea is no picnic and you are simply continuing the work of this news report – extrapolating Kthe orean jealousy of Americans into wholly invalid criticisms.”
Anyway, it’s a good experience to work here for a few years, make some money, make some contributions (exhibit creativity opposed to emulation), and then get out, before your career dead-ends… which unless you are a fluent Korean speaker, it most likely will after a few years. Don’t expect the training, development, etc., that you get in companies where you speak the language.
**above all based on my personal experiences and observations. Your results may vary.
Depends on which group you work with, etc. I’m not making blanket statements, but in fact countering blanket generalizations that do not hold water about how foreign workers are granted special favoritism just for being white, English speaking males, etc. That is patent nonsence.
My point is that if you think that a short-term job (vs. a genuine career) attempting make a contribution when the cards are clearly stacked against being allowed to make any impact whatsoever while facing medieval-order prejudice and having to place your long-term career goals on hold just to do so is a form of favoratism, then your standards are abysmal and you, rather than the expat, are the real loser in saying so.
Allow me to respond for you, cmm: Ouch.
More gems to add to the Korean Media Book of Fictitious Quotations.
@sonagi
I’ll track down that Korean article and post the link here. I don’t have time to find it while I’m at work.
@t_song:
If that anecdote about Western parents preferring Korean babies because they’re more intelligent came from a Korean media story, don’t bother digging up a link. I wondered if it was from a Korean source as it didn’t sound like an idea that would come from Western parents or adoption agencies.
linkd:
no pain at all, mizar’s response was a mess of innacurate assumptions, strawman arguments, and projections, of this simple form:
“My point is that if [innacurate assumptions/charges, strawman arguments, projections of my own situation/failures], then you are a loser.”
He also seemed to think that I am a Korean sticking up for my company and it’s treatment of foreigners.
mizar5:
let’s take a look at your charges-
“My point is that if*** you think that a short-term job (vs. a genuine career)…”
This “short-term job,” as you belittlingly put it, is actually a part of my genuine career. Foreign engineers who have put in a few years here go on to much better things that likely wouldn’t have been possible as soon had they put the same amount of time in at a company in their home country. The nickname for our company amongst the foreigners is the “launchpad.”
“… attempting make a contribution when the cards are clearly stacked against being allowed to make any impact whatsoever…”
were this the case, it would truly be sad that myself and other foreigners are here. But it’s not. My, and others “attempts” to make contributions have resulted in many patents and products for the company. These patents and products go on our resumes too. Perhaps you are projecting your previous situation (or failures?) in the company upon the rest of us. I don’t know. If so, sorry about your bad experience.
“…while facing medieval-order prejudice”
nope.
” and having to place your long-term career goals on hold”
au contraire mon chingu… as I stated before, my long-term career goals are not on hold. As a result of my experience here, they will be realized sooner. This is evidenced by seeing where previous foreign coworkers have landed after their stints here.
” just to do so is a form of favoratism,”
I can’t remember claiming any favoritism. Rereading my passage above shows that I talked about the pros and cons.
“…then your standards are abysmal”
***well, you did make this a conditional statement, and none of the conditions were met, so I guess this means my standard aren’t abysmal?
” and you, rather than the expat,”
I am an expat. Perhaps you assumed I’m a Korean sticking up for my company and it’s treatment of foreigners? (Which would be the polar opposite of what people assume about you…) Anyway, wrong again.
“are the real loser in saying so.”
Thanks for the stream of false assumptions and projections, etc. I particularly liked how you used them to conclude that I was a loser. I really hope that the “if” at the beginning of your ridiculous story cancels that out and you have changed your mind.
Anyway, my first response to you was based only on my personal experience, and as I said, results may vary. This time though, you were really reaching, assumed (the form of) a load of shit, and came out an ass.
“I’ve known my fair share of bankers, journalists, and white guys working at Samsung, and they are given elevated status (especially compared to their Korean peers, who work longer”
Typically korean businesses are exactly that, they don’t pay extra money to foreigners just for the privilege of having them in the company. Its called supply and demand…
If there is a skill or quality that they need they identify how to fill it, if it can be filled by a korean at the right price it will be filled, if it can’t be filled at the right price
i) for example DDD jobs can’t be filled cheaply, so cheaper immigrant labour is used
ii) specialist skill, jobs can’t be filled for lack of appropriate skill, then relatively expensive immigrant labour is used.
Accordingly, their status is according to supply and demand, not elevated for being foreign.
As to working longer, it is not necessarily the same as working harder or more efficiently….for example not leaving until the boss has left, perhaps going to dinner and coming back to the office long enough to qualifying for having the claiming the dinner on the company…. perhaps working or drinking late, but then sleeping it off at the desk in the morning…..
Woah, cmm, slow down and take a deep breath. My comments were not in reference to you. I used the word “you” in the general sense of “one” as in “an individual” and wasn’t calling you a loser or making any false assumptions or projections about you. I mean it was already obvious that you’re an expat, and, as an engineer with technical skills, you obviously have the opportunity to make a contribution many business people do not.
No, I was addressing the typical generalizations of those guys who think that people receive preferential treatment for being white. And if you have received any preferential treatment, it appears that it’s not because you’re white (or a foreigner, since I’m not really sure whether you’re white or not) but because you have technical skills, which really supports my point.
OK, friends now?
Arghaeri, from my observation there’s a clear difference between working long hours in the US and in Korea. In Korea, you are shamed into doing it, and it there is no clear link to productivity. In the US, executives generally work long hours out of a sense of responsibility to the quality of their work. They know that they’ll be judged on results rather than just appearances.
Be careful there,cmm. Back in the 70′s I met up with a Spanish speaking person in Pohang and attempted to carry on a conversation with him in Spanish. However, when I called him “chingu” he took offense. It’s a serious insult in Spanish,
It is t_song I was referring to as the “loser” for buying into that racial myth, not cmm, who was only relating a legitimate point of view based on his own experience, rather than a stereotype based on bias and justified by casual, very partial observations. I was pointing out that any foreign businessmen who are given elevated status in his eyes probably deserve it for the quality of their contributions rather than the quantity of the hours they work, and that professionals and executives tend to work longer hours regardless of nationality.
ok, friends.
assumed your direct response to my post, along with linkd’s assessment, made me think you were aiming it at me.
Mizar #123, that was my point at #121.
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