Open Thread #102

by Robert Koehler on May 30, 2009

in Open Thread

Another weekend, another Open Thread.

{ 87 comments… read them below or add one }

1 Darth Babaganoosh May 30, 2009 at 9:27 am: FIRST!
2 Darth Babaganoosh May 30, 2009 at 9:28 am: So, what’s the count up to now on oink oink cases in Korea?
3 JW May 30, 2009 at 9:28 am: Are countries in economic competition with one another? I always thought the obvious answer was yes. An old paper by Paul Krugman demolishes the notion.

http://infoshako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/~takasaki/Teaching_U/IEU/Krugman(1994).pdf
4 JW May 30, 2009 at 9:32 am: Oops..that didn’t work, just google “Competitiveness: A Dangerous Obsession” and clink on first link.
5 john_galt718 May 30, 2009 at 10:14 am: I was reading this NHRK report posted on Brian Deutsch’s blog as well as some others (I guess). Some of the things said about foreign English teachers sound pretty outrageous (I really love this from the Seoul Police Dept. rep ”
American and Canadian English teachers think Korea is a land of opportunity [and a] perverted paradise [because] the majority of them find it easy to seduce Korean women and do drugs with them.”).

However there is all of this talk of “human rights violations” that kind of puts me off. Are the hogwons really so awful? Should we call Amnesty International? Is a 7 day quarantine due to the swine flu panic such a surprise? Is mandatory drug testing of foreigners really so appalling? (Try getting a job in finance here in the states that doesn’t require drug testing, btw.)

All of the indignation seemed overblown to me; especially in the forums commenting on the document. Moreover, the idea that this document might actually acheive something (anything) seemed naive. What incentive does the media have to stop characterizing foreign teachers as drug abusing slackers looking to seduce Korean women? It sounds like the public eats these stories up.

So, if the environment is so intolerable, I don’t know why foreign teachers don’t simply leave (there are plenty of places to teach English in the world) or pursue another career path. We are in need of English teachers here in NYC – Bronx anyone?
6 Benicio74 May 30, 2009 at 11:06 am: I know it’s an exggeration, but what you are saying with “if it is so bad, you should just leave” is like saying blacks in the US in past decades should have just packed up and headed back to Africa.
F*** that.
We are here because we like it for numerous/various reasons.
One of the things we don’t like is being unfairly bashed by the media as dirty heathens.
Just because the news profits and the people “eats it up”, doesn’t mean we should tolerate it.
It’s unprofessional journalism and xenophobia that inhibits Korea from becoming the ‘world nation’ that they so desperately want to be.
Take your “if you don’t like, go home” and stick it!
7 killian92 May 30, 2009 at 12:05 pm: Lucky 7!!!

Do you think it’s possible that Little Kim filled a cave full of old ordnance and blew it to kingdom come? Just throwing it out there. See ya…
8 john_galt718 May 30, 2009 at 12:20 pm: @Benicio74: Uh, dude – relax. First – What I said can in no way be construed as analogous to telling African Americans to leave if they don’t like it. The ancestors of African Americans were dragged to this country (again, I’m writing from the US) as slaves. They built this country, suffered for their civil rights and remain an underclass due to socio-economic factors largely beyond their control. They have fought for every inch of ground they have gained and you have nothing in common with them or their plight if this is all you bring to the table. You are not Rosa Parks, so stand down.

Further, my central point stands – if you have a commitment to teach English and you feel that you are being unfairly treated, then by all means, pursue your path in a place where your services are truly appreciated. If you don’t like the way you are characterized in SK, either by the media or the government – and from what I have read, I don’t blame you – I suggest you pursue your discipline elsewhere. As I mentioned, we need good teachers in Brooklyn and the Bronx, but if you don’t feel like working in the states, there are plenty of other countries around the world in need of your services.

Finally, what it really comes down to is this – what exactly do you think this document, the NHRK Report, is going to accomplish? It sounds to me like you are swimming against the tide. Koreans have their own history and culture and their own reasons for not wanting you there. I’m not clear on how this report is going to convince them otherwise.

Also, you might want to consider reviewing you comments before you post them – you need to do some grammar checking.
9 roboseyo May 30, 2009 at 12:22 pm: I’m with Benicio. The old “If you don’t like it go home” trope is worn out and unhelpful. In fact, it’s counterproductive: you’re asking people who care about Korea, and might even be willing to put in some of the work, and contribute to some of the dialogues necessary to speed Korea more quickly on its path to becoming the society it claims to want to be, to “Give up, piss off, go home, and leave Korea to remain as it is”.

Embedded in the “If you don’t like it go home” is the pessimistic assumption that Korea will never change, and I’m just not ready to give up, to say nothing of the fact Korea DOES change, blindingly quickly.
10 john_galt718 May 30, 2009 at 12:53 pm: @roboseyo: I’ve followed your blog as well. You seem committed to Korea. Nowhere in what I’ve said do I question that you, or those like you, are so committed. I also don’t think you should be surprised when you find that cash strapped families who feel obligated to pay for their kids to have a strong understanding of the English language express some resentment. I think it is naive to assume they wouldn’t.

Again, let’s be clear, I think it would be great if we had more dedicated English teachers like yourselves here in the states, but I never said, “if you don’t like it, go home”. On the contrary – I specifically mentioned that there are dozens of countries around the world in need of your services. There really is nothing pessimistic in my original post or the follow-up; by all means – teach English, spread the word, so to speak, but don’t be surprised when your contributions aren’t met with the deep appreciation you seem to imagine they deserve. I suspect many of your students would rather be doing something other than learning a pain in the ass language like English. I imagine many of their parents would rather they be learning something else as well.

Korea has changed and will change – embedded in your comment is the assumption that embracing the English language will be one of the positive effects of that change. I’m not convinced. I’d like to see Koreans released from the burden of learning English as a matter of economic obligation. I was never compelled to learn Korean when I was growing up (although, now that I am, I kind of wish I had, because it is a far more logical and elegant language than my own in many respects).
11 t_song May 30, 2009 at 1:40 pm: Two questions: How does Japan treat its foreign teachers? And how have they been involved in building Japan into the World’s No. 2 economy?
12 john_galt718 May 30, 2009 at 1:51 pm: @t_song: Those are good questions – I’d like to know the answers.
13 Benicio74 May 30, 2009 at 3:09 pm: John, “but I never said, “if you don’t like it, go home”

That’s exactly what you said!

And you can still stick it!

As for my grammar mistakes, I had just woken up and was seriously disturbed that an American was throwing the “if you don’t like it, leave Korea” at us waygooks in Korea who are tired of being portrayed as evil, druggie, perverts in the local media.
You pissed me off, so I quickly wrote what came out of my brain at that moment.
Take your grammar criticism distraction and stick it!

I even admitted that it was an exaggeration and I know it’s not a very good analogy between blacks in America in the past and us now.
Their ancestors were forcefully brought to the West, but by the 20th century none of them were being held by force. They were free to move anywhere their determination and finances allowed.
Like us now, they were just trying to make their way in the world in the place that they wanted to live in. However, they suffered racism, discrimination, horrible stereotypes, and other problems due to not being white.
We non-Koreans do not suffer lynchings, but there has been the odd beating here & there. We do have big problems with racism and stereotypes because we are not Korean. We don’t deserve that!
We like living in Korea for many good reasons. The media and a segment of the local population is so keen on portraying all of us as evil, diseased, drugged out perverts and we don’t like it.
We will NOT leave. Actually staying and trying to solve this problem will help both us and the Korean people who claim to want the world to love them.

So, once again, take your “if you don’t like it, go home” and stick it firmly up your….
14 Benicio74 May 30, 2009 at 3:16 pm: I give up, John is right.

It’s all our fault that Koreans have such a huge English craze.
It’s all our fault that they spend so much time studying when they would rather be doing something else.
It’s all our fault that they spend so much of their hard earned money on education.
It’s all our fault that they even need us here because their teachers can’t teach English.
It’s all our fault, so we deserve all the racist stereotypes and discrimination that they can heap on us.

If we don’t like it, we should just leave!

F***!
15 Spook May 30, 2009 at 4:41 pm: What’s wrong with the comparison to African-Americans? They experienced legal discrimination in the States, fought a seemingly uphill battle against that systemic discrimination, and won. I see this less as a “if you don’t like it, go home” and more of a “when things are tough, give up.” An increasing number of foreigners have made homes here in Korea, complete with families, friends, and everything else that means. It ain’t just about work and money.

Consider the situation in the States: when groups are negatively portrayed in the media and in popular culture, the try to draw attention to it, they criticise it, and often there is change. Some folks like Benicio and Roboseyo (myself included) would like to see less obvious bias in the media. The quote by the cop above is, in many ways, indicative of the opinions of far too many locals; opinions that have been informed by the media. Korea wants to lure foreign investment and wants to be a hub of Asia. It needs (and seeks out) English teachers to help it accomplish those goals. It’s in the country’s interest to pursue more balanced reporting of its foreigner communities.

Native English speakers are working in Korea because of demand pull. Schools, institutes, companies reach out to foreigners to come to Korea through their advertising, and those organizations and the government have set up infrastructure to promote the development of foreigner-based English education. It ain’t like we busted through the front door demanding that everyone learn English. So the way I see, it’s analogous to being invited to sublet someone’s apartment in the back of the house and then they spend the whole time you’re living there telling you what a s**theel you are.
16 grammarmaven May 30, 2009 at 4:52 pm: For once, I’m actually enjoying the interplay between the cosmically opposed forces – this time represented by Benicio and John. I can see merits in both of their arguments, regardless of how elegantly (or not) they argue.

So in this spirit, my two cents. And like the protagonists above, I feel that I have a certain amount of ‘streetcred’ – having been kicked in the head on the subway (by a man who should have been in a straitjacket, admittedly- and the surrounding Koreans sprang into action to protect me from further harm) and having a beer can hurled at me in Hongdae (during the “Spectrum” incident era), I share Benecio’s ire at the Media – I remember so very clearly how their documentary, aired on EBS’ most-watched documentary program of the time, was little less than an incitement to riot (or lynch, rather). Further still, I wish I could stop paying for this sort of irresponsible programming, as the channel receives (always has, and always will) government money, in part paid for by the small “TV Tax” item – 2500 won on my monthly electric bill. Could I please have back the approximate amount of 390,000 won I’ve paid out for TV tax during my ‘sojourn’ as an F-2 in this country?

I also recognize the emotional prosody of the phrase “love it or leave it” which John admittedly did not use in exact words – as he points out, the whole world is the English teacher’s oyster, and all of the hagwon horror stories I’ve heard do not take place in Korea (though a disproportionately large number of them do). I think that between the two extremes of opinion here we can see a little grain of truth; the extremely bad conditions for the average foreigner here create a rapid turnover, much more so than in other countries, so that those of us with more ‘stamina’, for want of a better term, can climb the job ladder all the more rapidly. No paradise without a plague, to put it more succinctly. Japan is a great case in point, since work visas are issued on an individual basis – more freedom to move around, but ultimately this has created ‘market conditions’ in Japan, driving down the average salary of the teacher quite a bit – ultimately making English more affordable to the masses. So in a sense, this messed up visa situation in Korea is really of great benefit to us as teachers.

From John’s point of view, I can also see a merit to his argument that such ‘Human rights’ appeals may have limited effect – but again, with Benecio, not because Korean culture is monolithic and immovable – but rather, that on the spectrum (sorry, not intentional) of suffering foreign workers in Korea, we fall somewhat to the “cozy chair” of Monty Python fame side. Remember the Nepali who was literally ‘worked to death’ during the late 90′s? Need I dig up other examples?

This is not to say that nothing should be done. Recently some teachers have formed an ‘association for mutual benefit’ – careful not to use the “U” word in this country- and that is a step in the right direction; not only to improve the situation for their lot, but also of that of the English students everywhere in Korea, who are the ultimate sufferers from all the nonsense surrounding The Game. I could only wish, however, that they concentrate less on the fairness of drug testing, again with a hat tip to John, which I feel is less of a cogent and defensible issue, and more on labor law breaches and general life quality improvement for their members.
17 grammarmaven May 30, 2009 at 4:57 pm: Sorry, a correction, I wrote:

much more so than in other countries

when I meant to say

much more so than in other countries of a similar economic level (Japan, the Middle East, Europe, etc.)

I’m sure the turnover is just fine in parts of China and the Sudan…
18 Adams-awry May 30, 2009 at 5:06 pm: Yo Benicio!

I think it IS largely “our fault that Koreans have such a huge English craze.”

Remember the advert in the tube stations a few years ago that told Koreans they might die if they pronounced water in the British fashion if they went to America? I used to be pissed off that the effects of the differences in accents were being exaggerated (and I’m not even an English teacher!) But these days I see that bullshit advert as more of an indictment against the multi-billion dollar, largely-American run English language export business. Language skills just aren’t that important. I’ve been here over ten years, still don’t know more than a smattering of Korean and I haven’t died of thirst yet.

Spending insane amounts of time studying when they could be doing something else is their own stupid fault (and undoubtedly a major contributor to their topping of the OECD suicide charts – well, that and suicide role-models like the disgraced former president Roh Moo-hyun.)

But, I think it is the fault of the industry that they spend so much of their hard earned money on education. They don’t have to spend that much money, but the industry stirs up the shit storm and feeds off the desperation.

They absolutely DON’T “need us here because their teachers can’t teach English.” We just tell ‘em they do. There are plenty of countries who manage just fine without tens of thousands of (largely unqualified) “English” teachers burdening their economy.

If you feel discriminated against, that’s really too bad. And if you love many things about this country, that’s ace. But it’s not really a case of “accept it or piss off!” Rather, it’s a case of balance it up and if the good outweighs the bad, stay. If the bad outweighs the good, however, then piss off.

If the good outweighs the bad, but you still feel the need to bitch and vomit, you might do better to direct your efforts towards building bridges. Only by engaging this nation of racist bastards (흐 흐) might you one day manage to unite the world in love.

All the best.
19 KrZ May 30, 2009 at 7:24 pm: Lots of sockpuppets in here. ( ._.)
20 Adams-awry May 30, 2009 at 7:37 pm: If you mean me, you’re wrong. I’m just new.
21 The Goat May 30, 2009 at 7:43 pm: I like cake. It is much better than pie.
22 Mizar5 May 30, 2009 at 9:32 pm: What I’m sure most English teachers must realize by now, or should (not that I speak for them, rather I speak from the Korean perspective is that Engrish occupies an interesting niche in Korean culture that is wholely unrelated to communication.

I call it Engrish to illustrate that very specific cultural aspect.

Status.

As I have explained before, at Samsung, we are all given a handbook of guidelines for writing reports. A certain percentage of phrases have to be in English, a certain percentage in Chinese. Japanese carries little weight.

In oral discussion, an Enrlish phrase makes one appear erudite. The actual Engrish phrases typically make no sense whatsoever to a native speaker, who would normally have no idea what they mean. The pretense of the speaker is that he is representing something esoteric that only he is privy to.

Outside the corporation, a smattering of Enrlish makes one appear worldly and is mandatory for the wife of a manager.

Engrish is far superior to English in that it allows one to retain one’s Korean identity and place in the machine that is Korean society. Mere English would serve no purpose.

I suppose a part of the ongoing gripe of EFL teachers is the realization that they are being had. Nobody is really interested in them as individuals or what they have to offer. Foreigners are deliberately marginalized so that Koreans can benchmark, ie. pick and choose, change and adopt (bastardize) into Engrish, which is the real prize, and take creative licenses with what they’ve been taught while misrepresenting this as worldy knowledge.

It’s a game in which everyone is fooling one another, and while everybody knows that they’re scamming others, people live in a perpetual state of envy of those who are scamming them.

That, and not race, is why white Americans are preferred to Korean Americans. It serves no purpose for the teacher to understand Korean language and culture. A good talking head is a half dead talking head.
23 Adams-awry May 30, 2009 at 10:03 pm: All the teachers here are being had? Clearly you are Mulder and I remain Scul… sceptical.
24 Benicio74 May 30, 2009 at 10:20 pm: “I think it IS largely “our fault that Koreans have such a huge English craze.””

FAIL!
25 WeikuBoy May 31, 2009 at 12:00 am: Mizar5 @22: You expressed beautifully the thoughts that have been running inchoate through my mind in recent days. My impression, two years in, is that Koreans have no desire to learn about or connect with the outside world. They want just enough Engrishee to impress a future interviewer, spouse, or boss; and the more serious among them want a good TOEIC or TOEFL score — again, to impress other Koreans. But that’s it. Their vision doesn’t extend beyond the bubble; and they sure as hell don’t want to acknowledge that lowlife foreigners might actually have anything to offer The Amazing Race.

“Engrish is far superior to English in that it allows one to retain one’s Korean identity and place in the machine that is Korean society. Mere English would serve no purpose. I suppose a part of the ongoing gripe of EFL teachers is the realization that they are being had. Nobody is really interested in them as individuals or what they have to offer.

Man, that’s just so true. One of my students recently came to me for help with an upcoming job interview. I suggested that she say whatever English words come to mind, in whatever random order; and if the interviewer looks puzzled say (with a touch or arrogance), “What’s the matter don’t you speak Engrishee?” I was only half-joking at the time, and later realized I might be on to something. After all, it’s not what you say, but how you say it (to wit: with confidence!); and that’s never been as true as in Korea.

The whole thing’s a charade; and yes, I will be leaving. Two years here was one year too long. The money’s no longer good; and this latest nonsense with “pig flu” (on top of “crazy cow” last year and the pedophile media scare the year before that) is the last straw for me.

In the end, what amazes me is that a country which hates foreigners so much would go to such expense to bring so many foreigners here (and then make sure they feel unwelcome); and that a nation which is so concerned with its image abroad would so casually make so many foreign enemies, by making sure the foreigners who are invited and/or enticed here feel like crap.

Peace out.
26 Darth Babaganoosh May 31, 2009 at 12:11 am: and the more serious among them want a good TOEIC or TOEFL score — again, to impress other Koreans

My students want good TOEFL scores, not to impress other Koreans, but so they can leave Korea. A large percentage of them are gone within months of graduation.
27 Adams-awry May 31, 2009 at 12:15 am: Fail what?

I think.

It’s a fucking opinion!

I think we (the industry) ram the English business down their throats. I think we make them feel inadequate for not being fluent. I think we do so to extort greater and greater amounts of money from them. I think the whole industry is filled with charlatans promising the impossible and perpetuating their own mythology.

You can’t teach anyone another language: You can sell them vocabulary sheets. You can sell them books filled with the rules of a slowly ,but perpetually shifting grammar. You can sell them exams purporting to rate their ability to communicate in English. You can sell them another opportunity to take the same exam when the first expires. You can sell them the opportunity of practising spoken English with a native speaker. But you cannot teach them English. The last of these is perhaps the least shameful, but it is still an industry driven along by its own disingenuous warnings: Learn English or you’ll never be as rich as the elite!

I’m proud I’ve never been a teacher here. And I never will be. Now, I’ve given you teachers plenty of material to pick away at, so if you’re not too busy charging some English-crazed Korean 80,000won for a lesson with an unqualified half-hit (you!) please feel free to reply.

[Apologies if this is too much: I've had a lot of wine today!]
28 yuna May 31, 2009 at 12:32 am: Well, may I suggest that all of you put 2MB somewhere near the top of the blame list? He came to power and promised everyone to make Korea an English-speaking nation. I know the English craze started way before, but it’s definitely going to go down as one of his legacies (what happened to that other woman who mentioned 오뤤지?)
This is what he said as soon as he got elected:
http://www.pressian.com/article/article.asp?article_num=20080131101212&Section=01
특히 이 당선인은 “외국을 다녀보면 알겠지만 영어를 얼마나 잘 하느냐에 따라 일자리와 소득에서 차이가 난다”면서 “비(非)영어권 나라에서는 영어를 잘 쓰는 나라의 국민들이 못 쓰는 나라의 국민들보다 잘 산다”고도 했다.

“As those who’ve been abroad know already, how well you speak English determines your work and your income. Amongst non-English speaking countries, the people who are more proficient in English are wealthier than those who are not good at English. (or something rubbish to that effect, I’m sorry that second sentence makes hardly any sense in its original Korean either)”
29 yuna May 31, 2009 at 12:46 am: By that I mean, no one *made* him promise. In fact he caused a lot of controversies with his English intensive policy because no one had asked him to do it – he started going on about it after he was elected. Actually, I think that was the beginning of the extremely steep & slippery slope for him, as people became mega pissed off when they saw their own crazy obsession trumpeted on a national level by a buffoon they’d just elected.
30 john_galt718 May 31, 2009 at 12:53 am: @ Benicio74: Few things:
First, thank you for #13 – I think I’m going to put it up on my fridge. I’ve never received a response where I was told to “stick it” twice in the same post – excellent. I also like lines lines like “…we don’t like it” and “We don’t deserve that!”. That pretty much sums it up for me – I hope this made it into the report. (One constructive criticism – the thing with exclamation points is they are more effective if you use them less frequently.)

What happened between #13 and #14? You built up a good head of steam and then it seems like you lost the faith.

#14 is particularly strange because, again – if you read my posts, I’m not laying blame on you or any of your colleagues or anyone really. Koreans feel compelled to learn English and they resent it; you take their money and they take their resentment out on you. I didn’t tell you to go home (actually, the more I read of your posts, the more I think it might be better all around if you stayed there) – I actually didn’t “tell” you anything. I offered some suggestions and expressed my own skepticism about presenting this report (reminds me of the strongly worded memos the UN is always issuing) as a means of achieving a greater level of dignity in your adopted home.

Adams-awry puts it well “it’s a case of balance it up and if the good outweighs the bad, stay. If the bad outweighs the good, however, then piss off.” (I also liked the “unite the world in love” bit – that made me mist up a little). I just don’t see expressing your righteous indignation in a report (complete with footnotes…I pity the poor beauracrat saddled with having to wade through this thing – mightn’t you guys have at least provided them with a translated version so they could actually read it?) achieving much. I certainly don’t foresee the media changing direction; perverted, druggie school teachers make for good copy (we actually dig those stories over here too – check out fark or thesmokinggun or drudge; everyone loves pervert teacher stories) and you guys are a small at-will minority in a country and a part of the world that is notoriously and unapologetically racist. I know first hand – my wife is Korean and she reminds me on a daily basis of my genetic inferiority…it is frustrating, but I still love her. (Maybe I’ll write her a report…)

@ Mizar5: You are irritating, but sometime your stuff amuses me. Your points about Engrish are right on target – if you are unfortunate enough to spend any time in Flushing NY, you’ll find that half the population has latched on to a few key signature Engrish phrases, none of which make any sense. Also reminds me of the painful k-pop my wife subjects me to on occasion where the lyrics are all korean except for the gibberish Engrish chorus.
31 john_galt718 May 31, 2009 at 1:05 am: I forgot that this is an open thread – I wanted to ask, do any of you listen to the “Seoul Podcast”? Does the guy who runs that thing frequent this blog? I started listening to it to get a sense of what living in Seoul is like but it is so painful to listen to I had to give it up. The host and his regulars spend half the show yucking it up and the whole thing is so patently unfunny and dull I want to reach through the internet and strangle them. Does anyone find this program entertaining or informative?
32 Kapok Crusader May 31, 2009 at 2:59 am: Since it is an open thread, I’ll throw in one of those Korean stories that haunt me.

I visited Cheju Do in the ‘Nineties, Korea’s premiere resort island some years back. It had a ring of garbage around it like the ring around a bathtub. On each beach there was a line of plastic bottles, cardboard milk cartons, and cellophane wrappers. It was sad, but not something Americans had created, or allowed to persist.

I spent a good bit of military time in Korea from the ‘Seventies to the “Nineties. During the latter part of that period, a whole family of North Koreans had attempted to defect on the Western coast. They made themselves lifejackets out of blocks of wood and cloth vests and walked into the water one night holding hands. They hoped to drift south. Hypothermia eventually got to them and only a few family members eventually survived to be picked up in South Korea.

Our people asked them why they defected? Why did they take the risk? We knew they were told that South Koreans were the starving slaves of the Americans. They had taken a big blind risk and lost more than half their family members.

Why? “The garbage,” they responded.

The garbage? Yes, apparently South juice bottles, plastic wrappers, and other flotsam and jetsam made its way North to their beaches.

These North Koreans believed that if the South Koreans generated that much garbage they could not be starving the way they had been told by their leaders.

These days there are stories of the Pacific Vortex, a sort of Sargasso Sea of plasitic bottles. Shouldn’t be floating plastic. No question. I think there are ways to control it, but sometimes I think there are worse things.

My two cents.
33 Sonagi May 31, 2009 at 3:55 am: from this thread:

I wanted to ask, do any of you listen to the “Seoul Podcast”? Does the guy who runs that thing frequent this blog? I started listening to it to get a sense of what living in Seoul is like but it is so painful to listen to I had to give it up.

from the Roh News and Rumors Thread:

As I mentioned in one of my posts, I live in the US, not Korea, however I may have to spend some time in Korea in the near future, so a friend suggested I check out this blog.

from the Roh Funeral Open Thread:

“Having spent some time in Korea, I recall feeling a bit paranoid by the homogeneity of the city as well (similar feelings in Japan as well). “

from this thread:

You’ve already spent some time in Korea, watch Korean-language TV channels, read Korean newspapers well enough to link to them, yet you read that Robert guy’s TMH and Seoul Podcast to get information about Seoul and Korea. Your anecdotal details don’t sound authentic, but absent evidence to the contrary, I’ll take you at your word that you really read expat blogs to get information about a country you’ve already lived in and whose language you understand enough to listen to and read news reports.
34 Sonagi May 31, 2009 at 3:56 am: The second “from this thread” should be deleted.
35 john_galt718 May 31, 2009 at 7:38 am: @ Sonagi: It is really weird, this is the second time you have expressed suspicions about me. This time, you actually did research. Do you imagine that I’m a spy sent to infiltrate your threads?

When I say spent some time, I mean that I have visited on a couple of trips – once when I was getting married – I never said nor implied that I ever lived there. I live in New York City, as I have said before. The Korean language TV stations I watch occasionally with my wife on cable here don’t really give you much of a sense of anything in Seoul – they consist primarily of soap operas, evangelists and talk/game shows (all of which are subtitled). I have just started learning the Korean Language – I’m only a few months in; I check out the English version of the Korean Times on occasion, but it will be awhile before I’m able to read a Korean newspaper in Korean (the link I sent was courtesy my wife, by the way…that is how I get most of my news on Korea; I’m one of those few americans in the US who do take an interest in SK). I was checking out Korean tutorial podcasts I could listen to at the gym and the Seoul Podcast came up.

Any other questions?
36 Sonagi May 31, 2009 at 7:44 am: You pestered your wife to find you a link to support a claim you made in on a blog.

No further questions.
37 Sonagi May 31, 2009 at 7:45 am: Can’t wait to hear what you think about the next expat blog you discover in your quest to learn more about your wife’s native country.
38 john_galt718 May 31, 2009 at 8:01 am: @Sonagi: Actually, when I mentioned to my wife that someone in the blog I was reading were referring to that story as unverified, she pestered me to post the link.

“Can’t wait to hear what you think about the next expat blog you discover in your quest to learn more about your wife’s native country.”

I really don’t know what you are trying to get at here; it sounds snide, but it is too vague to be certain what your point is – perhaps you could clarify.
39 Linkd May 31, 2009 at 8:41 am: She means that something about you smells fishy. The internet obviously isn’t a perfect tool for conducting olfactory investigations, but this is one Hole that Sonagi’s nose is well-attuned to, and so she tends to trust her instinct when she thinks something’s a little off.
40 Ben_Wagner May 31, 2009 at 9:03 am: Wanted to address some well-argued themes. Hope to be back if I’ve said anything that resonates.

1. There may may some xenophobia, racism, and discrimination in Korea, but its not that bad.

Ok, even I agree with you for the sake of argument. It’s really not up to me to decide what the acceptable level of xenophobia and racism is in Korea. It’s up to the people, through the government to set the standard. And they’ve done that. According to the gov its a major problem that they want to address. Ok then, let’s address it. Nothing wrong with engaging the gov at its request.

Not to plug the report too much, but I think if you read it you’ll see that I’m talking about Korean standards throughout. (My personal opinions on the subject aren’t going to make persuasive arguments anyway.) And the standards set are impressive; the commitment to fighting racism and xenophobia goes way beyond that of many countries. Korea’s a party to the CERD, without reservation (unlike the U.S. and Japan), self- executes the document as domestic law (unlike the U.S. and Japan), and impressively, Korea has acceded to the article 14 optional protocol “individual complaint mechanism” of the CERD (only about 45 countries out of 270 or so member states have done so, and again the U.S. and Japan are absent from these brave few.)

And as far as the NHRCK, where this issue has been brought. They get very high marks internationally. As former UN High Commissioner on Human Rights, Ms. Louise Arbour put it, the “NHRCK is an internationally highly regarded national human rights institution, indeed a model for other countries”. The NHRCK is there to discuss precisely the kinds of issues brought up in the report. People are mistaken if they think this is some kind of confrontational, rub Korea’s nose in it approach.

2. English teachers are slacker whiners bitching about human rights in someone elses country. Ok, they may have a “right” to do this, but its unbecoming of them to be so sensitive and selfish considering how good they have it here.

The English teachers I know and work with have their shit together. These folks are doing some pretty amazing stuff in Korea. I’m glad they are part of the community. As for foreigner slackers. whiners, bitchers who are just sucking off the teat of Korea and living off their “foreignness.” LOL, don’t think this goes for just foreign English teachers. I’ve worked in law firms, banks, and businesses in Korea. You see the same kind of crap. The fancy suits and good grooming are like the sweet “paint job” with not a lot to boast about under the hood as far as professional competence. And of course, you don’t need to be a foreigner to be incompetent.

2. Korea doesn’t want foreigners here.

Again, I’m going to defer to Koreans on that one and take them at their word.
See the government’s 외국인정책기본계획 (2008-2012). It’s available online and an interesting read.

2. “Engrish”

Really interesting analysis on the English language phenomenon in Korea. I think there’s more to it, however, than just absurdist angle (although that aspect is fun to look at). Take a look at “Class and Cosmopolitan Striving: Mothers’ Management of English Education in South Korea,” by So Jin Park and Nancy Abelmann. Here’s a quick quote:

“In this paper we consider the practical and symbolic value of English in
South Korea. We are particularly interested in its symbolic value as an index
of South Korea’s and South Koreans’ cosmopolitan striving in the global order.
We call particular attention to English as a sign and site of cosmopolitan
yearning because this aspect of ‘English’ can be obscured by the more obvious
instrumentalities of English learning and mastery. By cosmopolitan striving,
we refer to the desire to become ‘citizen[s] capable of living at home in
the world.’ (Anagnost 2000:412).”

3. How does Japan treat its English teachers?

Interestingly, the super hagwon of Japan: “NOVA” (gone now) once tried to do drug testing of foreign English teachers only. It got shot down as discriminatory and a violation of the the rights to privacy and the presumption of innocence.

(bit long, sorry)
41 Ben_Wagner May 31, 2009 at 9:06 am: triple 2, whoops.
42 martypants May 31, 2009 at 9:14 am: Funny stuff today. You people need a chill pill.

I teach English here and simply wonder at the money and effort spent to produce English speaking Koreans that simply fails. I can rarely communicate with my students outside of class. Nevertheless, I take their money and sock it away for the eventual day when they decide that English isn’t the language they need, but Chinese.

Life’s a trip. Enjoy the ride and quit bitchin’
43 john_galt718 May 31, 2009 at 9:40 am: She needs to relax – friend of my family who has been teaching there for 20 or so years suggested this site. If you were moving Seoul, you’d want to know about the expat community as well given all of the “xenophobia” and “racism”. Seems like kind of a cranky and paranoid crowd…entertaining, however.
44 JW May 31, 2009 at 9:43 am: I’m beginning to think doctors are no different from wall street bankers.

Americans like to believe that, with most things, more is better. But research suggests that where medicine is concerned it may actually be worse. For example, Rochester, Minnesota, where the Mayo Clinic dominates the scene, has fantastically high levels of technological capability and quality, but its Medicare spending is in the lowest fifteen per cent of the country—$6,688 per enrollee in 2006, which is eight thousand dollars less than the figure for McAllen. Two economists working at Dartmouth, Katherine Baicker and Amitabh Chandra, found that the more money Medicare spent per person in a given state the lower that state’s quality ranking tended to be. In fact, the four states with the highest levels of spending—Louisiana, Texas, California, and Florida—were near the bottom of the national rankings on the quality of patient care.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=all
45 JW May 31, 2009 at 9:55 am: To make matters worse, Fisher found that patients in high-cost areas were actually less likely to receive low-cost preventive services, such as flu and pneumonia vaccines, faced longer waits at doctor and emergency-room visits, and were less likely to have a primary-care physician. They got more of the stuff that cost more, but not more of what they needed.

Ok, maybe these motherfuckers are worse. They’re not only causing a financial crisis, but also worse health outcomes.
46 Arghaeri May 31, 2009 at 10:04 am: JW – only beginning to!!

I lost faith in doctors years ago with their modern car mechanic approach.
Hmmm, you have big red spots and a temperature, try this, if you don’t feel better come back in a week…
47 Linkd May 31, 2009 at 10:06 am: Keep this up, JW, and the consensus view that you’re 14 years of age might actually start shifting toward a number nearer 20.
48 Arghaeri May 31, 2009 at 10:08 am: 14 & 3/4
49 Arghaeri May 31, 2009 at 10:08 am
50 Acropolis7 May 31, 2009 at 10:22 am: I to have never visited Korea, but I hope Sonagi doesn’t start to smell around me, well, I might enjoy that. Smart women are a huge turn on for me.
51 JW May 31, 2009 at 10:33 am: I dunno what you kids are talking about. I’m still trying to hack it HERE, which ceteris paribus makes me far more virtuous than the thousands of expats who jumped ship for all the wrong pussy reasons. Over and out.
52 Kapok Crusader May 31, 2009 at 10:57 am: It is either “over” or “out.” Over is like a comma (or perhaps hesitation marks), out is like a period.
53 Arghaeri May 31, 2009 at 10:58 am: “still trying to hack it here” translation doing crap, stuck in crap, but better the crap I know, than trying something new. This of course being the definition of “virtous”.

“ceteris paribus” – translation, all things being equal if I use obscure latin I might look more mature.

“jumped ship for all the wrong reasons”, translation, I envy those bastards who are living life, trying new cultures, new experiences, living and learning. This of course being the definition of “non virtuous”.

“wrong pussy reasons” pussy is rarely wrong, the exception of course being when the girlfriend catches you with the wrong one, then it can be painful
54 Arghaeri May 31, 2009 at 11:00 am: Acropolis7, do you satisfy Sonagi’s fetish criteria=> fit, hairless, smooth skin, sweet odour…

otherwise dream on
55 colontos May 31, 2009 at 11:22 am: JW-

I don’t see how what you posted casts the doctors themselves in a negative light. Care to elaborate?
56 John from Daejeon May 31, 2009 at 12:00 pm: It isn’t all about the English. English, mathematics, and science may be the heavy hitters, but hagwons are a relatively cheap form of afterschool childcare in which kids are taught everything from art to soccer—the learning is up to them. Hagwon kids are the U.S. version of latchkey kids. While South Korean parents might worry a bit about the quality of the institutions and that of their teachers, at least they don’t have to worry about their kids out wandering the streets or getting involved in gangs during those hours after school when adult supervision is unavailable.

Strange dude from NYC who showed up totally out of the blue and quite talkative to boot, I no longer teach in the U.S. because of all the bullshit that’s associated with being a male teacher in a society which has already judged us guilty before we’ve even stepped into the room. Oh, yeah, the tons of useless and wasteful administrated crap and the either, “in your face,” helicopter parents or, on the other hand, the nonexistent ones also contribute to make the job less and less appealing. As for teaching in NYC, I’d have to be pretty insane to want to live in a state the highest taxes in America and a high cost of living while the government there throws away money on, arguably, the most broken educational system in the United States. However, being a “rubber room” teacher sounds like a pretty cushy gig, I’m just glad I’m not paying their salaries to sit around and read magazines.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_15_06_JS.html

Now, teaching in Belgium. That, and that no-no word, “competition,” might be the answer. Too bad we are failing our kids, and society as a whole, doing nothing about it.
57 JW May 31, 2009 at 12:08 pm: The one thing that gets me is that with wall street bankers, you expect them to seek after profit. And in a way, they succeeded in that goal with incredible success, seeing how they managed to siphon money from the government even after fucking up the system, because the system and its incentives were set up that way. So in a way, you can kind of say that they just did their job right? But with doctors, they clearly recognize a conflict of interest with many of their patients — is it gonna be more money for them or more efficient, and likely, better care for patient? Well. The trend has been towards the former option and that’s why we’re in the mess we’re in now.
58 yuna May 31, 2009 at 1:02 pm: Following from that my earlier answer to r.rac’s question
href=”http://keywui.chosun.com/contents/102/42/view.keywui?mvSeqnum=113411&page=1&Dep0=chosunmain&Dep1=multimedia&Dep2=video&Dep3=keywui01″>
here is a clip of Kim Hyesu baring it all, no, of the cute bike trip with his grand daughter. He wraps up the ice-lolly in loo paper saying her hands would get cold, then he teases her that because she cannot ride on the bike with the lolly she can come back later on her own, which gets her to shout “But I can put it in my pocket while I ride!!”
And fantastic and hilarious article comparing the meaning of bicycle as employed by 2MB, (look at me, I am posing for “Let’s all bike to work” photo though my all my past my life was built on working for those companies which have been the front runners in destroying the environment and the ecosystem)

이 같은 결과에는 이 대통령의 ‘과거’도 한몫합니다. 현대건설 회장, 현대산업개발(구한국도시개발) 사장, 한국원자력산업회의 부회장, 한라건설 회장, 현대종합목재 사장 등 그가 과거에 몸담은 기업들은 대부분 ‘토목 건설’ 분야였습니다.

이것들은 그야말로 생태파괴, 자연훼손, 산림파괴 등의 대표적인 기업들입니다. 이런 기업들을 앞에서 진두지휘하며 온 세계의 산림과 초목, 그리고 강과 바다의 환경을 파괴하는 ‘건설’ 전문가가 이제 대통령이 됐다며 ‘자전거’ 타기를 하다니요. 그것도 ‘카메라’가 있는 곳에서만 말입니다.

YuInchon(the multi millionaire ex TV actor and the current Minister of Culture), showing off his thousands-of-dollars-monthly-membership-fee health club toned body in a cycle suit, who reportedly joked “compared to Bae Yongjun I’m not that rich” (that’s what the article says ) and finally, the naturalness of NoMuhyun on his bike.
Talking of bikes, I have been getting a bit annoyed with the Green Growth thingamajig 2MB is trying to push, like a cheap piece of made-up slogan, and then I found out after Noh’s death how Noh had been trying various stuff (like organic rice) with his fellow farmers in Bong-ha Ma-eul. This Bicycle article highlights that comparison rather well, as most of Noh’s personal photos we are seeing are unofficial/informal photos, just him doing his thing -he did ride around Chongwadeh with his little grand-daughter on the back whilst still in office (the first photo in the article ) but this was only released after his death..
It ends with the heading “If you are going to ride a bike, do it like NoMuhyun.”
59 yuna May 31, 2009 at 1:08 pm: Arrgh, Could someone with the editing rights be my hero and fix my comment above by including a open bracket “<a ” before that long ” href”? Thanks in advance.
60 Mizar5 May 31, 2009 at 1:17 pm: Yuna, are you fooled by the apparent naturalness of NMH on his bike? While that picture was taken after he had left office, why didn’t he do anything for the environment when he was in office and had the pull to do so? Why did his administration squander their opportunities on fighting the media, trying to dig up dirt on people’s ancestors and attempting to bribe NK into acting like a civilized nation?

I’ll take a pragmatist over a poser any day.
61 Mizar5 May 31, 2009 at 1:26 pm: By the way, “those companies which have been the front runners in destroying the environment and the ecosystem” are the ones you have to thank for escaping the abject poverty of your grandparents. Where is your gratitude for the contributions of those great enterpreneurs who built the Korea of which you are so proud?

How about getting your head out of the clouds, and getting a sense of reality? Development comes with sacrifice. What nation building contributions or sacrifices has NMH ever made for Korea? But stick with the likes of NMH if you prefer to watch Korea backslide as it did under his administration.
62 yuna May 31, 2009 at 2:11 pm: Where is your gratitude for the contributions of those great enterpreneurs who built the Korea of which you are so proud?

What entrepreneurs? I’m not proud of 세계는 넓고 할 일은 많다 Kim Woojoong (I do feel pity though) or ex-Hyundai Jung Mongjoon between his progeny and their spouses take up most of the spots of the top 20 rich list, or this guy who just got the no-guilty verdict?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090529/ap_on_bi_ge/as_skorea_samsung_trial
Anyway, the article is trying to highlight the fact that LeeMyungbak had built his career working much for construction companies. No, I am not proud of the mad rush for construction and building and re-building and digging up and cement-walling bulldozing style. Even Chunggyecheon, like most structures in Korea that I see, I don’t see it as a tacky artificial replacement which will need bulldozing and replacing yet again in a very short time frame. Unlike MaoTai who thinks that the Chinese government is doing its best to keep the majority happy, and that the development comes at a price, I am not willing to accept that. If that makes me someone young and naive, then I guess that’s what I am.

Why did his administration squander their opportunities on fighting the media, trying to dig up dirt on people’s ancestors and attempting to bribe NK into acting like a civilized nation?

This I AM proud of. Because I think people do not live by twinkly things (and most Koreans don’t,unlike the Chinese described by Mao Tai), the latest mobile phones and the ghastly tall buildings and a fully belly alone. I think he took on
the most difficult (and in your eyes futile and not constructive) subjects and tried to tackle it head-on, issues which did need to be tackled. The South Koreans need to do a catch up growth.
63 dda May 31, 2009 at 7:11 pm: Faking Background Checks for Security Clearances
64 dda May 31, 2009 at 7:13 pm: Steven Seagal Emotional Chart
65 McGenghis June 1, 2009 at 1:31 pm: Hey Yuna, you’re fighting the heavyweights here. Some folk (and I consider myself a folker, to be sure) don’t make it their goal to change Korea. Rail against the world, or just speak in Korean to vocational college kids. Seems pretty simple to me! That my britches tighten around my hearse makes perfect sense in Korea.

After three years, I’m still as star-struck as the the nerdy kid who got laid by the prom queen.
66 yuna June 1, 2009 at 11:03 pm: Marmot, did you know that you are being sponsored by 2MB? When you click on the ASEAN Summit advertisement it goes to 2MB +Cheongwadeh’s Youtube channel ! And it says he last signed in 13 hours ago!!!! And it looks like he’s moderating the comments too!
67 NetizenKim June 2, 2009 at 9:04 am: #5 john_galt718:
So, if the environment is so intolerable, I don’t know why foreign teachers don’t simply leave (there are plenty of places to teach English in the world) or pursue another career path. We are in need of English teachers here in NYC – Bronx anyone?

You are assuming that the average Engrish teacher in Korea aspired to be a teacher in the first place. Bad assumption. The vast majority of Engrish teachers in Korea are motivated by reasons that have utterly nothing to do with teaching.

Your average Engrish teaching whitey, while forever indignant about “racism” or “xenophobia” in Korea, likely doesn’t take too favorably upon the idea of teaching a bunch of brown and black kids in places like the Bronx or Brooklyn.

Your average Engrish teacher is basically a spoiled, bratty whiner, a First World reject, a perpetual outsider both at home and abroad, a cynic and wanderer who owes no allegiance to anything but himself, for whom the Korea experience is basically an extension of the pot-smoke hazed college existence, a bunch of Peter Pans who refuse to grow up. To such an audience you make appeals for socially-minded duty in the inner-city schools of America? You are wasting your breath.
68 Linkd June 2, 2009 at 9:09 am: I’ll say.
69 cmm June 2, 2009 at 9:51 am: hey Netizen Kim, how many English Teachers do you actually know and how well?
I’m guessing quite a few given your in-depth knowledge of them and your ability to explain what the “average” one is like.
70 tmc1233 June 2, 2009 at 10:36 am: @cmm, I was wondering the same thing. I have been an ENGLISH teacher here since 1997, and have yet to meet anyone who fits the description of the ‘average’ teacher that Netizen Kim has laid out.

That said, as a guy in my late-30s, I tend not to hang out with the 23 year olds who often think of teaching as a means to earn enough money to get drunk on the weekends– much like– ajeossis. Hmmmm. When in Rome…

@NetizenKim, on what do you base your opinion that the ‘average’ English teacher would not want to teach a brown or black kid in the Bronx or Brooklyn? I just so happen to know an ex-hagwon teacher who did exactly that– he finished his contract and moved to Brooklyn to teach in the inner-city.

If anyone is wasting his breath here, I would say it is you, NK. Your stereotypes are stale and unoriginal and make you out to be the small-minded twit that you (probably) are.
71 cmm June 2, 2009 at 10:51 am: and, I’m just waiting for a topic that comes along where NK doesn’t have an “expert” opinion to offer.
72 seouldout June 2, 2009 at 11:05 am: And following the logic of nutizenkim: Weren’t there soiled clothes for you and you folks to dry clean in Korea?
73 JW June 2, 2009 at 11:49 am: Interesting article in Dongailbo today summarizing interview by hankyoreh with Moon Jae-in, former cabinet official in Roh’s administration. What I found interesting, and everything is according to Moon:

- Roh found out about Pak Yun-cha’s money around february to march this year
- Roh was shocked to find out the money was used to buy property for his children and not to pay back outstanding debt
- After which, the former first lady was ashamed to the point that when Roh entered the same room, she would often leave due to discomfort
- When Roh wrote his first letter of apology, he wasn’t fully aware of exactly how the money was used.

http://www.donga.com/fbin/output?n=200906020347&top20=1

What do you think? Is Moon lying? If not, and my guess is he’s not, then the fact that Roh’s own hands were clean from this affair probably had a great deal to do with his decision to commit suicide, since nothing could be more torturous than knowing that his entire legacy had been sullied by relatively small sums of money pocketed by people whose daily lives he could not be expected to control completely.
74 yuna June 2, 2009 at 12:11 pm: Very interesting article. It’s all coming out now from their side, who kept the silence like they were meant to until now..(unlike the 검찰)

Is Moon lying?

No. But you knew I would say that.
At any rate, his face tells me no. It’s surprisingly easy to read on people’s faces the inherent good and evil, especially in Korean ajossis, because a lot of them have greed and self-protecting pomposity dripping from them. His is definitely a good face.
75 Granfalloon June 2, 2009 at 4:00 pm: 김정운 omg wtf
76 Linkd June 3, 2009 at 2:17 am: Twofish on cfr.org:

The role of General Motors is to make cars. It’s not in the banking industry, the health care industry, the unemployment benefits industry, or the pension industry. If they board of directors of General Motors is concerned about something other than making a profit, then something is wrong. It’s not the health care, pensions, banking, unemployment benefits, are unimportant, it’s that someone else should worry about them, and not GM. If the board of directors has to worry about health care every time it decides how to make a car, then it’s being distracted from its job.

Also, if the US is copying the Chinese playbook, then we ought to see the US government assuming GM’s health care liabilities. The next step is when people start asking if the US government is funding GM’s health care liabilities, why shouldn’t it fund every one elses………
77 Mizar5 June 3, 2009 at 3:26 am: What do you think? Is Moon lying? If not, and my guess is he’s not, then the fact that Roh’s own hands were clean from this affair probably had a great deal to do with his decision to commit suicide, since nothing could be more torturous than knowing that his entire legacy had been sullied by relatively small sums of money pocketed by people whose daily lives he could not be expected to control completely.

That makes no sense. How egocentric and silly such a suicide would have been. What legacy? The man left the Blue House in disgrace over his undeniably poor performance as President. He left no legacy. Did he know that the investigation would be halted with his suicide and sacrificed himself as part of a cover up to save the arses of others who were involved? That would have been a fairly typical dutiful Korean politician’s suicide. However, thanks to Roh, we might never know the full story. He appears to have been more concerned with covering up than coming clean.
78 Linkd June 3, 2009 at 3:40 am: More of the same. Bold is various other commenters, plain text is twofish. Random conversations, not necessarily chronological, and I have made edits.

U.S. Government spending is out of control.
No it’s not. Either one of two things are going to happen by 2010. Either the economy is still in trouble in which case, the Republicans are going to come back with a venagnance with massive tax cuts, or (and I think this is going to be likely), Obama is going to be seen as a hero, and is going to have massive tax increases on the rich. Remember, he got elected on a platform of increasing taxes on the wealthy.

We’ll see if things work according to your crystal ball. But i think you’ll be in for a pretty big surprise in the Fall2009.
Well yeah. I’d be surprised if I wasn’t surprised. About half the stuff that I think I know is dead wrong. I just wish I knew which half.
My big prediction is that the US will end up owning General Motors for a lot longer than people now predict. If GM becomes a big basket case, it will turn into Amtrak. A big mess that no one can get rid of. If it turns out to be a big success, then people will ask “why sell it?”

The standard rationale for privatization is that private companies are better run than state companies, but if it becomes obvious that GM is decently run, that rationale disappears, and the Federal government will be tempted to tap into GM corporate profits as a shareholder to pay for social security and medicare.

What should the US do? Start living below its means (i.e. saving more). The sooner we start, the less painful it will be. That means a lower standard of living for all of us and reductions in entitlements.
This is the mistake that people made that caused the depression to be much worse than it had to be. A nation is not a household, what makes sense for an individual makes no sense for a nation. If an individual cuts back, this is a good thing because it leaves more resources for investment. If everyone ends up cutting back, and you aren’t using the investment for anything, you end up suffering for nothing.

This is disastrous since it means zero investment in technology or wealth generating activities. The problem is that people think that for there to be gain, there must be pain, not recognizing that you can have lots of pain, but no gain.

Part of the reason I don’t buy this is Mao. Mao came into power with the notion that if everyone sacrificed for the common good, that there would be massive wealth. Everyone sacrificed and you have thirty years of economic misery. Then Deng comes along and says that it’s a great thing to be rich, and things start working.

Continuing the current economic prescriptions are bad for nation, which as Obama himself puts it, is “basically broke”
First of all, the US is nowhere near broke. It’s got economic problems, like every other nation that has existed or will exist, but most countries would gladly exchange their problems for the ones the US has.

Second, there are no perfect policies. All policies are bad, and you just need to find the ones that are less bad. There is a danger of inflation with massive government spending, but it is much, much less risky than the alternative. …If all you offer is unavoidable doom and gloom, then we lose absolutely nothing by trying something else first on the off-hand chance that it may make things better. If we are doomed whatever we do, then I say go down fighting.

With a $1.8T deficit and the size of my family, Obama took out a $36,000 loan in my name this year
No he didn’t. He took out a $1.8T loan on behalf of the US Federal Government. Be careful about talking through inaccurate analogies. If you are in a low tax bracket, it’s unlikely that you will be paying much of that back. If you have savings that you used to buy treasuries, then you are a lender and not a borrower.

And just what did I buy with that? Did I buy anything that will help me pay down that debt in the future?
Among other things, the debt bought 12 aircraft carriers that keep the flow of oil coming from Saudi Arabia. Highways, bridges, scholarships to future physicists and engineers, the type of research that led to the internet. And you’ll get back a lot of that money when you go to the bank and then you get money rather than a sign that says SORRY. (referring to the way the FDIC insures bank deposits so average people don’t lose their money if their bank goes bust)

Having personally crawled out of debt before, I know what it’s going to take and it won’t be pretty.
Wrong analogy. Rich people find it much much easier to get out of debt than poor or middle class people. Look at Donald Trump. He was in debt to the tune of almost $1 billion, and he didn’t have that much trouble paying it. Part of it is that if you owe $1 billion, you can play hard ball with your lenders in ways that someone that owes $50,000 can’t.

Rich and poor unfortunately have very little to do with personal wealth or debt. If you are poor and owe $50,000, you are in a lot of trouble. If you are rich like Donald Trump and owe $1 billion, you aren’t going to have problems maintaining a very comfortable life.

How someone that owes $1 billion can lead a much better life than someone that owes $50,000 is one of the interesting and mysterious things about the world, but there it is….

No one believes the dollar is the place to be for anything but the short term.
I believe it. People have consistently underestimated the United States, and ignore the strength of its political and economic system.

People point to the fact that the US has idiots in charge, ignoring the fact that ever country will have some idiot in charge at some point, and the US has proven to be more idiot-proof than most other countries.

For the last eight years, the United States has been run by one of the most incompetent group of political and economic leaders the world has ever seen. They have done things that would have completely wrecked any other nation on the planet, but because the US has such a strong political system, all they managed to do is to create a life threatening financial crisis.
Maybe Obama is on the right track, maybe not. If he is, then great. If not, then we start bringing in another set of ideas in 2010 and fire him and replace him with someone else in 2012. If they guy or gal is an idiot, we try again in 2014 and 2016, and just keep trying new things until we figure out something that works. You have a decade or so to work something out. It took the Soviet Union about two decades to collapse after economic growth stopped in the late-1960’s.

I’ve yet to hear of any $1T increases in taxes and we’re not able to find enough lenders for our debt, so we’re debasing the currency.
That’s because Obama is a smart politician. If we get through this mess, he is not going to have any problem ramming through a massive tax increase on high income earners. If we get to mid-year elections in 2010 with the economy in good shape, then who is going to stop him from increasing taxes? The Republicans? Yeah right.

…and finally, a little stand-alone screed, not written in response to anyone

Part of what has fundamentally changed is that people just don’t have the same political beliefs that they did in 2007. The idea was that government was bad, private enterprise was good, the less government interference and bureaucracy you had the better. The fact that we have an largely unregulated “shadow banking system” wasn’t the result of rogue bankers trying to get around the system.
It was the result of a political and economic ideology that viewed government regulation and supervision as a problem, and if you can find ways of circumventing government regulation and supervision, by creating an entirely new system free from meddling bureaucrats, then GREAT!!!! This is what the government regulators wanted you to do.
That system is dead. In 2007, when people talked about governments, you had this image of corrupt, self-serving, greedy politicians with absolutely no clue about business, and then these fearless leaders of capitalism trying to do their best to generate wealth and prosperity free from government interference and what Ayn Rand called “looters” and “parasites”.
What we have just undergone is not merely a financial collapse, but the collapse of an entire ideological system, which is why no one cares that the government is owning as many businesses as it is.
79 NetizenKim June 3, 2009 at 4:13 am: My big prediction is that the US will end up owning General Motors for a lot longer than people now predict. If GM becomes a big basket case, it will turn into Amtrak. A big mess that no one can get rid of. If it turns out to be a big success, then people will ask “why sell it?”

The standard rationale for privatization is that private companies are better run than state companies, but if it becomes obvious that GM is decently run, that rationale disappears, and the Federal government will be tempted to tap into GM corporate profits as a shareholder to pay for social security and medicare.

The old dichotomy that private companies are better run than state companies is clearly false and outdated. If that is the case, then why is GM in trouble in the first place? It is because it is a private company that is saddled with responsibilities that properly belong to government: health care, pensions, unemployment benefits…

When I was in college, I worked a night shift for the US Postal Service as a mechanic. The US Postal Service is quite possibly the ONLY Federal Agency that generates a PROFIT. UPS and FedEx is no better or worse than USPS. In fact, the USPS is a contractor for UPS and FedEx and I’ve seen non-USPS items go through the mail flow quite often. The USPS is still going strong despite private competition and the rise of the internet.

There is no reason why GM cannot be another USPS. There is no reason why government entities shouldn’t generate profit.
80 Mizar5 June 3, 2009 at 5:13 am: Regarding NK and Linkd’s posts about GM, it’s a relief to read some talk about things that actually matter, rather than the suicide of an inconsequential leader. GM affects the livlihoods of millions. For the govt. not to have stepped in would have been criminal.

I have a gut feeling that GM will come out of this with more accountability and stronger in the long run.
81 NetizenKim June 3, 2009 at 6:09 am: Oh. I should have mentioned also that while collective bargaining exists between labor and management for USPS, Postal unions are forbidden by Federal law from strike.
82 t_song June 3, 2009 at 6:45 am: Well the Big Three dug their own graves by locking into expensive UAW contracts and producing gas-guzzling, massive vehicles. Any of you catch the April 27 piece in the New Yorker by Peter J. Boyer, titled “The Road Ahead”? It compares the Big Three and their declining profitability in the face of pricey labor contracts with non-unionized Nissan and Toyota.

@Linkd
Yikes. Less is more.

@NK
I believe the plan is for GM to be handled like the banks, with the government intervening temporarily then going back into the hands of private biz. From the news reporters I read yesterday, the range is 6 months to 18 months.
83 t_song June 3, 2009 at 6:46 am: **reports not reporters
84 NetizenKim June 3, 2009 at 7:42 am: Chinese company buys Hummer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/business/03auto.html?em
85 SomeguyinKorea June 3, 2009 at 9:12 am: “Two questions: How does Japan treat its foreign teachers? And how have they been involved in building Japan into the World’s No. 2 economy?”

By asking the second question, you seem to be holding foreign residents in Japan up to a different set of standards. Tell me, who makes the bigger contribution, a Japanese doctor or a Japanese garbage collector? Sure, the doctor provides treatment to the ill and preventative care…But, what would happen if the garbage collectors would go on strike for a few months? The doctors would become a lot busier.
86 Linkd June 3, 2009 at 1:58 pm: Actual ad at the top of this page:

Do you know CheongWaDae?
CheongWaDae emerges as the world leader in nature-friendly policies
http://www.youtube.com

If I had a won for every time I had to write “world leader” for a client’s PR….
87 Linkd June 3, 2009 at 1:59 pm: actual link