I don’t mind critical comments of the late president, but please, keep them respectful.
BTW, Naver.com is doing live video of President Roh’s funeral.
President Roh Funeral Open Thread
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Looking down at Shinmunno at about 8:30 am:
http://twitvid.io/aavi
(taken from Heungkuk Life Building; Police walking in front of Kumho Asiana HQ towards Gwanghuamun intersection)
Here in New York, we have two Korean stations available via cable – neither are running anything on the funeral. One is running an infomercial on cosmetic surgery, the other an evangelical sermon.
I sense that I should watch some of it, but it’s too creepy: the huge portraits, all those white gloves, the uncontrolled sobbing — all for a man who took the easy way out and left his family and country to deal with his problem.
How hard would spending a few years in jail have been for an ex-president. Not very, I say.
It’s time to stop sentimentalizing the man, and to put the shame back into suicide.
Pass.
The coverage started here in NYC on one of the networks; the camera seems fixed on that giant portrait or the traffic outside the event. There is also some footage of skirmishes of mourners trying to get into the square.
Does anyone know why are the soldiers carrying the casket wearing masks?
In a way, I suppose if he were guilty of the charges laid against him, he did the Korean people a service by saving them the expense and misery of a trial in which all those who participated in his greed were also exposed.
A cowards death and an unfortunate way to end the story.
Although I was an outspoken critic when Roh was president, I feel equally as strong that his suicide is a tragedy for his family and for the nation. He was essentially a good person who may have not been adequately suited at the time to be President.
We all await to see if his funeral and aftermath will honor him as a person and/or become a rallying point that may tear apart Korean society. The outcome of all of this should serve as a barometer of how much Korean society has matured politically.
Sorry to see him go so young; hoping for the best for Korea….
Koreans tend to wear masks when carrying a dead body casket around with them. Irregardless of actual stench or concern for airborne disease being present, which probably isn’t a real concern. They just do it.
One of my father and my uncle’s favorite conversation fodder was that Noh Moohyun is really from Jeollado, but his mother married and remarried a couple times and became a fake Noh, while he was born something else.
My problem with this story which is also wildly popular in the Ky region is that,
It is way way way too similar to the supposed Kim Daejung birth story. Thus, I conclude it is just mental masturbation for people who need some more Ky in their assholes.
The biggest socialist/marxist/leftist ever in South Korean Presidency came from the Ky region of South Korea. The region where talk is pompous and hot about sworn allegiance and alliance with America, yet where actual enlistment in ROK Army is astonishingly low, especially among sons of gookhwae wiewons. It’s really a shitty state of the state. Wonjoon is probably one of these or parallels of.
Noh Moohyun. For actual Koreans in Korea who don’t have a decent income, he was the champion of the poor man. The Obama of Korea, before Obama actually wielded a sword in America. The Robinhood of Korea. To the dismay of his enemies, Korean economy actually did pretty good under his leftist reign. Nationalist against Japan. No different than Obama’s protectionist strategies. Kowtows to North Korea, continuing Kim Daejung’s policy of showering them with gifts. So, they built nukes and missiles, but their people are aware that South Korea is the better land, and Kim Jongil is a pig, a lier, and inseminated too many good looking women with disasterous genetic results, where no matter what the female looks like, the Kim gene kicks in and creates a pig clone.
For those championing the causes that Obama himself champions, to real South Koreans with real South Korean tax duties, military duties, and low income, Noh Moohyun was their best President ever.
Suicide in Korea has a different significance from suicide in Western Europe and North America. If Kimsoft was still alive, I’m sure he’d agree with me that there is some Japanese colonial influence in this. If it is, then how ironic.
Noh Moohyun was too damn stubborn and his personality was like fire.
From what I read, he died in the local hospital due to his injuries from the fall.
Lee Myungbak didn’t want this.
Talking of Lee Myungbak, he also suffers from a Ky region story about his birth origins. How he was born in Japan, and how the Myung character refers in some way a reverence for the Japanese emperor. Ok, then. Elect Gyeunhae gongju and go India-Pakistan-Sri Lanka style. Go ahead and make some dumbshit female progeny of a military dictator the head of state of Korea and call that progress. Fucktards.
I’ll say this. Lee Myungbak is has not had any luck whatsoever in his Presidency. Part of that may be due to an inherent deficiency on his part. South gate burns down, beef crisis, nuke and missile crisis, retreat from Kaesong, failure to do anything with a FTA gift that Noh left him, running into a bad cycle in the world economy, being labeled as the enemy of the poor man, etc. Part of that is his fault. He is ultimately responsible for picking who is on his executive office team. He’s the one who went with the Ko-So-Young circle. He’s different from George W. Bush in that respect. Bush picked all around. Lee Myungbak, not so.
talking in people’s comfort terms, Noh Moohyun is not the worst President ever. He is the most liberal leftist President ever who had a very very very short fuse.
I feel sorry for his family that have to deal with the aftermath of his actions.
The man was a liar and a criminal who proved to be a coward in the end As long as the nation/media sensationalizes and glamorizes suicide it will continue to be a major problem and issue going forward.
That is what saddens me the most.
Ugh. Sorry about the missed tag.
What time is funeral/crowd to supposed to end?
Is it true that they are going to erect a fiberglass replica of the cliff on Seoul Plaza???
I hope not Etekwini because there will be a heap of dead bodies at the bottom of it at any given time.
The man … proved to be a coward…
I don’t think I get the US definition of “coward”. Jumping off a cliff (or intentionally flying a plane into a building), while ultimately stupid, seems a lot more ballsy than accepting incarceration or having your name dragged through the mud.
Wow, very classy. Historically, it really is a hilarious time in this country! Keep with the cleverness, please.
Naturally, these kinds of things lend themselves to the surreal and ironic at times, but…
Momemts ago, I’m watching the ceremony at Seoul Plaza on tv, and the 윤도현 Band busts into a soaring rendition of “후회 없어”.
I mean, come on… a little malapropos, no?
What’s next, someone going to bust into a soaring rendition of “My Way”?
@ babotaengi: This question interests me as well; when I talk with my Korean friends here in the states, they seem to feel that suicide is the most honorable course of action under certain circumstances; many suggest that this was the case for Roh. Here in the West, taking yourself out is generally perceived as an act of stupidity or cowardice – finding a “permanent solution to a temporary problem”.
It seems a lot of my coworkers really liked the guy down in the south here. I guess I’d better keep my mouth shut. It will be nice when this is finally over and we can all forget the idiot.
I was just at Gwanghuamun intersection for the procession. There seemed to be a good rapport between the police and the spectators– as you can imagine, the riot police were out in maximum force. However, people were very calm and the riot police sat down for a while (to the applause of many), and later cleared out of the way of the spectators. Some crying, some tossing of yellow paper airplanes, a few wails here and there, but overall it was a very orderly and solemn affair (we’ll see if that holds up). Youtube video (with my ugly mug showing up around 1:10 ) at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9tqR_UBPf4
baduk would hasten to note that nowhere in that video do we actually SEE the body of the late president.
Oh, lovely, police are confiscating the yellow scarves people are bringing to Kyungbok Palace for NO REASON WHATSOEVER. “We can’t comment on the matter, we just got an order from above and we can’t talk about why.”
http://news.cyworld.com/view/20090529n08352?mid=n0207
This is just such an exemplary reason why the current government is so much more fucked up than the last, come on guys, admit it. Whatever Roh did wrong, he did wrong, but as far as Lee’s presidency has ‘progressed’ it’s almost excruciating how bad it is.
It’s the funeral of a human being.
I hate HTML, try again:
So what happened at the funeral? Some of us are keeping track. In the red corner;
<a href=“http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/05/23/breaking-news-former-president-roh-moo-hyun-dead/#comment-227292”Colontos (Mark my words. We will see massive protests and riots in the coming days.)
<a href=“http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/05/23/breaking-news-former-president-roh-moo-hyun-dead/#comment-227373”Koehler (look out for memorial services)
<a href=“http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/05/23/breaking-news-former-president-roh-moo-hyun-dead/#comment-227398”MrMao (This is a slippery slope. Korea will be cast headlong into an abyss.)
<a href=“http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/05/23/breaking-news-former-president-roh-moo-hyun-dead/#comment-227404”gbevers (This is Korea, so violent demonstrations are almost guaranteed.)
<a href=“http://freekorea.us/2009/05/27/i-sense-a-great-disturbance-in-the-force/”Joshua Stanton (And — to ensure a dignified atmosphere and to guarantee that civil unrest could not possibly ensue — they’ve moved Roh’s funeral service to downtown Seoul on Friday. My advice: bring a gas mask. Even before this news came out, Korea’s far left had, in a fit of irresponsible exploitation, called Roh’s suicide “murder.” One can already see the determination in some quarters to exploit this, and if there’s any truth to reports that North Korea has mobilized its Fifth Column in the South, they will.)
And in the blue corner;
<a href=“http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/05/23/breaking-news-former-president-roh-moo-hyun-dead/#comment-227400”Linkd (I think there will be no violent demonstrations)
<a href=“http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/05/23/breaking-news-former-president-roh-moo-hyun-dead/#comment-227403”Mizar5 (I believe this will be viewed as something shameful by both sides and will not lead to huge vehement, violent demonstrations but to muted quiet reflection.)
My incompetence knows no bounds. Third time’s a charm.
Colontos (Mark my words. We will see massive protests and riots in the coming days.)
Koehler (look out for memorial services)
MrMao (This is a slippery slope. Korea will be cast headlong into an abyss.)
gbevers (This is Korea, so violent demonstrations are almost guaranteed.)
Joshua Stanton (And — to ensure a dignified atmosphere and to guarantee that civil unrest could not possibly ensue — they’ve moved Roh’s funeral service to downtown Seoul on Friday. My advice: bring a gas mask. Even before this news came out, Korea’s far left had, in a fit of irresponsible exploitation, called Roh’s suicide “murder.” One can already see the determination in some quarters to exploit this, and if there’s any truth to reports that North Korea has mobilized its Fifth Column in the South, they will.)
And in the blue corner;
Linkd (I think there will be no violent demonstrations)
Mizar5 (I believe this will be viewed as something shameful by both sides and will not lead to huge vehement, violent demonstrations but to muted quiet reflection.)
Sorry folks, I give up.
About the masks, no WJK it’s not related to the stench of a corpse, it’s because the honor guards carrying the Presidential medals, etc, all had to walk directly behind the tailpipe of cars going at about 5 mph, for an hour or more. They were eating car exhaust the whole way.
I’m glad that Chun Doo Hwan and Noh Tae Woo were not allowed to attend as former Presidents. Also, I heard that Kim Dae Jung had a speach planned, or had written something he wanted to present about Noh, but that LMB rejected him.
Did you all see the four religious ceremonies by the Christians, Catholics, Buddhists and Won Buddhists? Interesting that the Catholic Priest asked God to forgive Noh for his mistake, I assume he’s talking about the suicide.
On TV they closed the funeral with Noh’s ‘last’ message found on the computer. With Korea’s history of dirty tricks (just look what happened to Syng Man Rhee’s opponents, who mysteriously die before election time.. not to mention Kim Dae Jung’s car crash and near death on a boat in the Tushima Strait) I can’t help but wonder if Noh’s alleged last note was planted on the computer.
It’s a shame to see him go. It was truly inspirational to see the way Noh won the Presidency, winning open primaries throughout the country, receiving political and financial support from the netizens, bucking the power of established party politicians and their personal networks of clients.
Valiant, eujin.
I was certainly wrong about the size of the expected crowd. As for my prediction of peaceableness, not sure. I rode down there around noon and picked up my souvenir balloon. No hint of agitation then, but the day is still young.
Also, I’ll be cashing out the bulk of the Linkd family savings at the end of June. It’s all still in won, a currency which so far seems pretty impervious to Nork declarations of war and other spiraling abysses (abyssia?).
More like lazy. I was try to cut corners and it backfired.
I saw the tail end of the ordeal. My goodness. Thousands of men, women, and children wearing yellow cardboard oversized visors with Pres. Roh’s picture on them. It looked like a mass of mindless ducks. Not to disrespect the deceased, but I would roll over in my grave if the majority of people mourning me looked so utterly stupid.
Sohn, Jie-ae from CNN makes me wanna puke. When she reports in other countries she’s like…”look at this shit/corruption happening here.” Much different when she reports on S. Korea.
Anyway…”Roh is NOT dead because a(his) little seed still lives in Korean hearts.”
I predict a percentage jump in cigarette smokers. I also think the cliff from which Noh Moo-hyun fell will be renamed something like “Moo-hyun Cliff” (무현벽) or “Moo-hyun Rock” (무현암).
By the way, I hope jumping off that cliff does not become trendy.
“Also, I heard that Kim Dae Jung had a speach planned, or had written something he wanted to present about Noh, but that LMB rejected him.”
What does that mean, you “heard”? Link please.
BTW, I “heard” that LMB has banned blue cheese from the blue house… in case it gets lost.
you guys are hypocrites.
Noh Moohyun IS the Obama of Korea.
I don’t see why you hate him and start mutating into conservatives when it comes to Noh Moohyun.
In truth, people like Linkd and Goat should be bawling as if their hero fell on their sword.
Corruption? I cannot think of a single ROK President who was not accused of taking money. But, none were on the scales of former Filipino or African continent Presidents who took so much that their own countries got in debt and their economies crippled over. I think that was Wonjoon Choe’s poor excuse for Jun Doohwan, Mr. 29 manwon.
Hey, even Kim Yong Sam, an elder of the church got involved indirectly thru his son. I expect fully that Lee Myungbak will get involved too.
dokdoforever, I’ve seen the mask when carrying a casket before. Where car exhaust was not a factor. Ship, boarding off a plane, etc.
this is Robinhood committing suicide. Or JFK being deceased in Korean terms.
what is Robinhood anyway? A communist prior to the time of Marx and Lenin.
Linkd, I hope you lose your job this year. And for years to come, become dependent on Canadian welfare. Just because you’re such a special guy.
There was a story which got picked up by some media that Nomuhyun made a guy who was about to kill himself (came across in the street 19 years ago before he became a president) promise him that he wouldnt do it – even gave him a picture frame with the words – “Promise *life*, Don’t act greedy” to stop him from doing it. He asked “What about your two children?” So I don’t think he did it because he thought it was the “right thing to do” any more than you or me.
Ironically, he championed the nickname “바보 노무현 – Nomuhyun the fool” which one of the guys who never met him made up because he repeatedly ran for election in Pusan, knowing he wouldn’t get elected, because he was trying to show he could beat the regionalism. He championed the small and the ignorant and the helpless.
Pictures speak a thousand words, and the words to this song 상록수 and this song 아침이슬, both Nomuhyun’s favourite, (and my parents’ generation’s) which were banned as they were deemed anti-government during the Park Junghee dictatorship express the sorrow felt by the Korean people in their disappointment, that somehow their short turbulent history of a semblance of modern democracy has taken a step backwards despite its recent struggle. The words to these songs express their sentiment.
*상록수* (Evergreen)
저 들에 푸르른 솔잎을 보라 돌보는 사람도 하나 없는데
비바람맞고 눈보라 쳐도 온누리 끝까지 맘껏 푸르다
서럽고 쓰리던 지난날들도 다시는 다시는 오지 말라고
땀 흘리리라, 깨우 치리라 거치른 들판에 솔잎 되리라
우리들 가진것 비록 적어도 손에손 맞잡고 눈물 흘리니
우리 나갈길 멀고 험해도 깨치고 나가 끝내 이기리라
우리 가진것 비록 적어도 손에 손 맞잡고 눈물 흘리니
우리 나갈길 멀고 험해도 깨치고 나아가 끝내 이기리라
*아침이슬* (Dewdrops of Dawn)
긴 밤 지새우고 풀잎마다 맺힌 진주보다 더 고운
아침이슬처럼 내 맘의 설움이 알알이 맺힐 때
아침동산에 올라 작은 미소를 배운다 태양은 묘지 위에 붉게 떠오르고
한낮에 찌는 더위는 나의 시련일지라 나 이제 가노라 저 거친 광야에 서러움 모두 버리고 나 이제 가노라
That’s why there is this mass sorrow you see, so please don’t dismiss it at face value.
This is our 정서.
I remember seeing Diana’s funeral and Elton John’s song “Candle in the Wind”, and wondering about the mass sorrow then. However, I think this guy’s life and what he stood for, definitely warrants our sorrow, perhaps a bit more than what the People’s Princess stood for, although I did feel terrible for the young princes she left behind.
à Zippel: I think 윤도현 chose the song “후회없어” because the singer was openly supporting Roh during his presidential campaign and incumbency, and because of that 윤 was kicked out of his spot in TV show and not allowed to perform in KBS now, since 2MB government. He’s singing about he is proud of supporting the man with integrity: I do not think 윤 is actually praising Roh for jumping off the cliff. Surreal for u who doesn’t know the whole story, I guess. For ME, the enldess police and their buses blocking the whole streets is more surreal than 윤’s song choice.
à john_galt718: by u saying “here in the West,” u do not mean that ur country is representing the whole Western norm, do you? I hope not. Because from what I checked, I’ve seen more ppl “from west” admiring Roh for his integrity than calling him a pussy. And please don’t say they’re not from the West just because some of these are in French..
http://www.lemonde.fr/asie-pacifique/article/2009/05/23/deces-de-l-ancien-president-sud-coreen-accident-ou-suicide_1196914_3216.html
oh and dont you love how our friends to the north decided to honor their best southern buddy…by launching another missile today
with friends like that who needs enemies?
To shed some more light on why he took such a drastic action, one can look at the second part of this eery interview during the last stage of his presidency, where he talks about the reasons for his walking out alive on his own two feet and not a (political)”corpse” unlike his two predecessors :
a. That he was confident that he hadn’t taken pro-Japan attitude, or became a dictator, or used political division(I know some of you will not agree with this, but I think he meant in terms of dividing up his party or joining the enemy camp etc) to his political purpose. He says he was simply lucky, and was confident that he had committed not one aota of moral wrong a politician is capable of committing.
b. That he was ready, having seen Kim Daejung’s fort and great achievements crumble to nothing because of his son & the media which jumped on that during the last bit of his presidency.
- 그 ‘짱짱한 임기말’의 힘은 어디에서 나오는 것입니까.
“우선… 이거는 좀 조심스러운 이야기인데, 내가 행운아라고 봐야겠죠. 역사의 과정에서 (정치인이) 친일을 한다든지, 독재를 한다든지, 분열정치를 초래했다든지 할 수 있습니다. 그런데 저는 그런 것이 없습니다. 한국 정치의 문화와 전통에 누를 끼친 적이 없습니다. 나는 적어도 정치인이 지켜야 할 도덕적 명분에 관해서는 철저히 한 치의 오류 없이 지금까지 오고 있다, 그 점에서는 자신이 있습니다.
두 번째는… 정권방어와 자기방어에 성공한 것이죠. 김대중 대통령은 큰 업적을 가지고 있지만 임기말에 성을 방어하고 있는데 (아들문제로) 북문이 뚫려버린 거죠, 그래서 언론에 의해 짓밟혀 버렸거든요. 그래서 뭐 견뎌 나갈 수가 없었죠.
그런 것이 그 분 개인의 역량의 문제라기보다는 시대 풍토가 방심할 수밖에 없는, 말하자면 그동안의 우리 문화가 ‘뭐 그런 정도는’ 하는 주변의 분위기가 있었기 때문에 그걸 방어할 수가 없었던 것이죠.
나는 이제 그 앞의 분들이 다 그렇게 해서 무너지는 골병드는 모습을 봤기 때문에 그 부분에 있어 방어할 준비가, 결정적 약점에 대해서 방어할 준비가 돼 있었던 것이죠.
The bit in the bold, he then goes on to say,
“Now this(Kim Daejung’s son) incident was not so much his(Kim’s) own misdoing or fault but the fact that our times and our society allow “oh, well to that extent, it’s no big deal” attitude that he(Kim Daejung) was unable to defend himself because he let his guards down.
I saw how they (predecessors) crumbled and got destroyed by such crippling diseases, so I was ready to defend and stay vigilant against such critical mistakes”
So you can get a glimpse of how important this issue was to him and everything he stood for. Some of you might say he gave such an interview in a barefaced-lie-mode while he was taking the measley money and while he knew all about the dealings going on (the watches, and the bribes what have you) – that’s up to you. I choose to believe his testimony and his wife’s testimony.
This interview also contains a few bits on how he felt about his “fight” with the media which he took on, which is also quite enlightening. He takes a very pragmatic view -that he happened to stand at the time in modern Korean history where this had to occur..
Since this is an open thread, I have a question. Although it is related.
What is the deal with bad Romanization of names?
The “l” in Lee, the “r” in Park, the “r” in Roh (this is a bad one!), the “rh” in Rhee. What the hell? I have never received a satisfactory explanation for this. Choi makes sense, at least, although an English speaker will always pronounce as rhyming with “soy.” But I get it, the vowel is a combination of o and i. These others, I don’t get at all. I suppose Park and Lee could just be Koreans adopting Western names that are similar. But what about Roh?
When it (이응 o , and 니은 ㄴ)falls at the beginning of the word, the old Korean way (which the North Koreans still use today) was to pronounce Yi as Li and No as Loh..
Somehow going into Romanization we reverted back to the old way…
Do you read Korean Colontos? then the following will explain it (두음법칙 – two way pronunciation rule) Apparently it is prevalent in altaic languages.
http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EB%91%90%EC%9D%8C_%EB%B2%95%EC%B9%99
Otherwise I can explain a bit more…
colontos, i’m pretty sure it’s because the romanization system is relying on older versions of spelling some of these words. For example, 유 used to be 류, 노 used to be 로, 이 used to be 리. N Korea still uses the prior versions, so they say 로동당 whereas in the south it would be called 노동당.
Why Park became Park or Choi, Choi, I have no idea…probably an arbitrary formulation.
oops, didn’t see yuna’s post
Thank you for putting that in perspective Yuna. Naturally I disagree, but it does represent the perspective of the We Love Roh contingent.
Regarding the populist sentiment that Roh rode into office, he was simply the right place at the right time. History is rife with such oportunistic figures. However, the question is whether the lucky individual up to the task, like Roosevelt, or whether he will prove incompetent like Jimmie Carter, downright evil like Hitler or Stalin, or self-aggrandizing like Bush.
Roh was clearly not up to the task. However, unlike a merely incompetent figure like Carter, he held no high moral ground. He simply allowed himself to be used as the tool of confused, unfocused populist movement that was itself misinformed and in the wrong on a diverse array of issues running the ranging from SOFA to historical revisionism.
What a shame that such a tragically flawed individual found himself in that situation. In so doing, he led Korea backwards into an era of economic uncertainly and falling foreign investment.
2MB, while oddly out of step with populist sentiment, was another populist opportunist, representing the backlash against Roh. While he may have made certain slip-ups in handling the mass populist movements, to his credit he has done more to bring them under control that KDJ or Roh, both of whom had their fingers in the wind and were essentially too gutless to maintain a semblence of position of integrity in the face of mass stupidity. The fact that Roh credits KDJ says a lot about his rather low political standards. He was an ideologue, but not a thoughtful, competent, dispassionate or intellectually honest one.
While I stated that there would be no immediate civil unrest, Tom Coyner has his finger on things to come: stand by to see whether cynical civic groups parlay this into another wingnut batshit outburst. Remember that this did not happen when the 2 schoolgirls were dumb enough into walk in the path of a military convoy. The opportunists lay in wait until they had the opportunity to parlay the rather insignificant accident into a mass ive anti-American movement.
Beef was another case in point. It doesn’t take anything substantial to ignite populist sentiment among the childish Korean public. Of course, Tom Coyner said it more diplomatically:
I do read Korean, but not all that well. Thanks for the link, yuna, I will sit down with it later.
Thanks to you, too, JW.
I get easily frustrated with this kind of thing. To me, the point of Romanization is to make English speakers (or whoever) pronounce the word as close as reasonable possible to the actual pronunciation. Spelling it as No or Noh is as close as you can get. The Park thing bugs me as well. Why not just spell it Pak?
Colontos, it seems that its a personal decision for Koreans to choose among various spellings of their name in English, and there’s little consistency. Nobody chooses No or Noh because they don’t want to come across like Dr. No in the James Bond film. Most of the time Koreans consider non-Koreans last when romanizing, so I suggest that we non-Koreans choose our own romanization of Korean places and names to suit our needs. That’s what they do when they Hangulize after all. So I simply romanize as it sounds to me.
Mizar5- Many of Noh’s choices throughout his life don’t seem to be those of an opportunist – hence the nickname babo President. Giving up a lucrative private law practice to become the advocate of student protestors under Park. Running in Pusan for DJ’s party several times. Leaving YS when YS was on the rise, but had compromised by merging with Noh Tae Woo. Noh Moo Hyun took his principles very seriously, and was willing to sacrifice financial reward and political power to do what he thought was right. When he was revealed to have violated his principles, even to a relatively minor degree, to him it probably represented a great loss – a lifetime of sacrifice down the drain. Just like bankers who value material wealth jump out of buildings when they lose tremendous amounts of money, Noh jumped when he thought he had destroyed his life’s legacy. But nobody’s perfect, and Noh might have learned something had he elected not to jump (assuming he wasn’t pushed).
Dokdo, naturally Roh took his principles seriously. He was, after all an ideologue. But like most ideologues, his principles were simplistic, not well reasoned, not very original, and extrapolated from bias. His decision to advocate student protestors under Park is a case in point. But whether for personal gain or out of ideology, he was in fact an opportunist who lacked the intellectual integrity, and possibly the intellectual capacity to lead rather than follow the misinformed crowd.
Rather than stand up for truth and reconciliation, he chose to side with regardless those backwards-looking forces who were intent on tearing society asunder by conducting witch hunts into whose ancestors worked with the Japanese (at a time when most responsible people would have) and advocated the politics of historical revisionism, blame and devisiveness. Time after time he chose the backwards-looking narrow, negative ideological agenda over bona fide attempts to move society forward. He chose to reopen old wounds and to side with the misinformed anti-American, anti-SOFA nutjobs.
Even his death reflects this self-agrandizing ideological rigidity and the attempt to make a devicive statement even on his way out. He chose to allow the nation to drift into chaos rather than lead it boldly into the future. In death as in life he remains a tragic figure of little substance and much noise.
Colontos/ “2MB, while oddly out of step with populist sentiment, was another populist opportunist, representing the backlash against Roh. While he may have made certain slip-ups in handling the mass populist movements, to his credit he has done more to bring them under control that KDJ or Roh, both of whom had their fingers in the wind and were essentially too gutless to maintain a semblence of position of integrity in the face of mass stupidity. The fact that Roh credits KDJ says a lot about his rather low political standards. He was an ideologue, but not a thoughtful, competent, dispassionate or intellectually honest one.”
Wow, okay, I can’t just go by without commenting on that one. You think LMB has done BETTER bringing mass populist movements under control? You think that the Yongsan tragedy (clearly the result of ill-rehearsed and rash riot police tactics), the return of water cannons (used at inappropriate and illegal distances), the arrest of Ji-yoon Kim (the Korea University student who was an outspoken critic against the MB government and Yongsan crackdown was arrested suddenly yesterday for participating in illegal demonstrations; the police had sent several summons to which she had not responded on the grounds that her demonstrations had been peaceful and non-violent. She was not shown her arrest warrant until after the police had seized her, she was not read her Miranda rights.), the fact that any yellow objects taken into Kyung-bok Palace are being confiscated without reason or warning (presumably because yellow was the symbolic colour Roh used in his presidential campaign), the fact that the government DISALLOWED former president Kim Dae-Jung from making a mourning speech at the ceremony – you think these are GOOD responses to populist action and sentiment? Do you honestly believe fighting violence with violence is going to lead to anything BUT violence? People are angry. They’re angry that things are back to the way they were thirty years ago, when things happened without explanation and they were just expected to swallow it, suck it up, because that’s how it worked, orders came from above and they were supposed to follow. When my parents’ generation was afraid to go out to places like Myungdong in case they got embroiled in a demonstration and got beaten up by the riot police EVEN THOUGH THEY WEREN’T DEMONSTRATING (A Japanese tourist at Myungdong was beaten up a few weeks ago because he happened to be walking the streets near a demonstration. He screamed that he was Japanese and the riot police stopped. Since then, riot police have yelled in Japanese ‘if you’re a tourist move away!’.). When my parents’ friends disappeared without warning one day and then showed up dead a couple days later. Our parents have been through it all before, and it sickens them that they’re seeing something similar happen again, even after everything they put up with (my father spent two thousand days in prison, in total. He was a student demonstrator during the Chun-Roh eras, and fought for laborer’s rights in his late twenties).
Roh wasn’t perfect – he wasn’t kitted out to be a politician by any means (though, to think of it, neither are those incompetents Inchon Yoo or Mansu Kang. But to those who call him a coward, check out the work he did as a human rights lawyer working for laborers against the big conglomerates and his famous interrogation of Chun Doo-hwan at the Fifth Republic corruption hearings. Perhaps, for you, suicide is the easy way out, leaving the wife and children to deal with what’s left (though, if you notice, since his suicide his sons and aides have been released from prison and the investigation into his family has been halted). But the work he did as a lawyer was not the work of a coward.
Although my response was long, to summarize, Korea needs a leader who rises above idiological and geographical factionalism, riding the waves of public sentiment on one side or the other, who can attempt to lead Korea to an era of government by mutual consent. This is what 2MB was elected for, and he has not done as badly at it as is portrayed by the old voices of divisiveness and factionalism and the populist mass robots. 2MB was elected to lead Korea to political maturity by a people who were not yet ready to give up the old habits.
Yes, bmelanie, I believe the age of mass demonstrations must give way to mature political activism. The old habits of civil violence must give way to a more mature, informed form of expression. Chaos must give way to order.
Frankly, any govt. would be at a loss of how to deal with the habitual violent protests of a society ruled by disorder so 2MB can’t help but make some mistakes along the way. But he hardly represents a return to the days of Park Chung Hee and the butcher Chun Doo Hwan.
If you want to protest something, protest something meaninfful such as the ignorance and corruption rather than 2MB on the basis of style rather than substance. Was the administration wrong about the U.S. beef issue? In substance no, in style, arguably so.
You need a real cause, not a pseudo, kneejerk cause.
I believe what Roh said as well. He was a pretty straight-forward guy. I also believe that there is such a public outpouring of emotion now because, despite his poor record, he represented hope and someone that the people could believe in, even if in a naive kind of way.
After the long, cold-blooded acrimonious corruption of Lee Hoi-Chang’s party, people were pretty much fed up with the whole show and Roh symbolized the people’s need to believe in something. Despite LMBs much lauded background, he probably inspires incites something closer to contempt than hope simply because though LMB is dutiful and industrious, he is seen as a scion of the old ways.
Though I did not have respect for his legacy as president, I wish to God he did not go like this.
P.S.: I wonder how his wife and brother are going to deal with their guilty in all this since they seemingly took money Roh would not have solicited and set Roh up as the fall guy — may God bless him.
Mizar5/ Political maturity is all very well, but what are the results so far? Tell me, what has Lee Myung-bak DONE? Cut the welfare budget in half and all but eliminated all government support for the disabled, elderly, orphaned and unemployed. Threatened to privatize health insurance. Annihilated all hope for junior high students who dreamed of returning home before 10 pm. Lowered comprehensive real estate holding tax, raised public utility charges instead. Oh, things are just going swimmingly.
“Yes, bmelanie, I believe the age of mass demonstrations must give way to mature political activism. The old habits of civil violence must give way to a more mature, informed form of expression. Chaos must give way to order. ”
You speak as though people started up mass demonstrations for no reason – though I see what you’re trying to say. I’m just hoping that people will internalize what they feel right now in time for the next presidential election – if we survive that far.
Plus, you haven’t told me what you think about the scarf-confiscating and disallowing KDJ from speaking at the ceremony. Or do these count as astute and appropriate government responses to mass demonstrations as well?
bmelanie, first I agree with your comments in #48. I am, after all a liberal. I am not an 2MB partisan.
Re #49, the people certainly did not strat up the mass demonstrations for no reason. They are gullible, easily misled by cynical mistruths and habituated to displays of immaturity. And by perpetrating these behaviors, they are not helping anyone.
I know nothing about the scarf and KDJ accusations, however. Is 2MB personally responsible for these things? If so, how is he any different from ideologues on the left who attempted to muzzle the press and failed to suppress illegal demonstrations in front of the US embassy?
Mizar5, I don’t know what you are, but you are a whole bunch of something.
bmelanie, if I may presume to intrude on your ideological development, please paste comment #46 onto a Word document, print it, and hang it on your wall.
Democracy will never be as orderly as dictatorial regimes, and street demonstrations have their place. They are prevalent in S Korea, not because of emotional ‘immaturity’ on the part of the populace, but because the political parties are not yet doing their job – to channel popular demands upwards, where compromises can be reached and deals struck. This is because S Korean parties have long been organized around personal networks and cliques, on the basis of patron client ties. Noh represented the beginning of the transition in party system, away from the personalized, ineffective party system. If you want a smoothly functioning democracy, you need institutionalized, effective grass roots parties, and that takes time.
Personally, I think revealing the traitors who betrayed their country to the Japanese is long overdue. How can you have reconciliation without even addressing past wrongs or identifying the criminals? Forgiveness is possible once guilt is acknowledged.
I’m no fan of mindless nationalism, in any country, including the US. Nationalism will probably abate when S Korea becomes more secure about its sovereignty and place in the world- but this is one of the more threatened places in the world, with N Korea, China, Japan, US, Russia, etc. It’s no wonder Koreans feel insecure.
@44
PROTIP: Mizar said that, not me.
@Mizar5: Just a quick note – if you intend to persuade any Koreans, you might want to get past you persistent derogatory and condescending characterizations of the Korean people, e.g. “It doesn’t take anything substantial to ignite populist sentiment among the childish Korean public.” and “the people certainly did not strat (start) up the mass demonstrations for no reason. They are gullible, easily misled by cynical mistruths and habituated to displays of immaturity.”
Also, Carter was “incompetent” while Bush was merely “self-aggrandizing”? Really?
I’ll give you a pass on this John, as you were not on the peninsula during the hatefests.
Plus you have an awesome name.
Mizar5: You can keep the pass, thanks; I’m not an objectivist, so the name doesn’t hold much for me.
Would you agree that Americans could also be characterized as “childish” and “gullible, easily misled by cynical mistruths and habituated to displays of immaturity”? If so, I think we’ve found common ground.
The Expat’s distaste for mass demonstrations in Korea is a curious mixture of condescension inevitably borne of the Westerner’s superiority complex and the instinctive, edgy nervousness of a minority living in a strange land whose people is given to volatile, nationalistic passions. The 2002 demonstrations involving the deaths of the two children proved that sometimes these passions may be directed against them.
The more informed and educated Expat is also probably reminded of Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Rousseau believed that Man in his natural state is perfect. This natural state is often betrayed by political or economic institutions. Rousseau and his disciples believed that it is possible to create a political order that gives full expression to popular will or what he called The General Will – unfettered by what we may call “parliamentary democracy” or what the Expat commonly refers to as “political maturity” as compared to Korea’s rash outbreaks of “childish populist sentiment”.
Rousseau’s ideas had inspired the likes of Hitler and Lenin during times when Europe herself went through her own periods of inflamed nationalistic passions. From the French Revolution to the World Wars, much blood was spilled. No wonder the Expat is rendered incredibly nervous by Korea’s energetic and often violent protests. It all looks often like a giant lynch mob in constant search of scapegoats.
From your post, NK, it sounds like the expats’ nervousness is pretty justified.
Having spent some time in Korea, I recall feeling a bit paranoid by the homogeneity of the city as well (similar feelings in Japan as well). I was particularly aware of standing out more than I liked on the north side of Cheju Island – people tend to stare. My wife didn’t feel particularly comfortable in Vienna for the same reason. However, Korean people always seemed welcoming and friendly one on one; perhaps it was just a thinly veiled disguise.
In any event, I may have missed the coverage, but I never recall having heard of Westerners physically attacked during these “nationalistic” protests. Has this happened? Are threats of violence against Westerners on a regular basis? Do ex-pats tend to feel singled out or bullied (aside from the “human rights violations” about which I hear the English teachers persistently complain)?
“Just like bankers who value material wealth jump out of buildings when they lose tremendous amounts of money”
Some with millions of dollars jump out windows. Some politicians who have done nothing wrong jump out windows. We don’t know why.
We don’t know why Roh killed himself, but I would bet it has nothing to do with anything that happened after his childhood.
The Expat’s distaste for mass demonstrations in Korea is a curious mixture of condescension inevitably borne of the Westerner’s superiority complex and the instinctive, edgy nervousness of a minority living in a strange land whose people is given to volatile, nationalistic passions.
At what point is a foreigner not an expat? Is this foreigners or expats?
I would argue that the expat’s distaste for “mass demonstrations in Korea” is somewhat akin to his distaste for “things that could result in him being beaten to death,” and, to a lesser extent, “things that could result in him not being able to get a taxi for the next two weeks.”
Although, I’ll admit, it’s hard not to feel superior when you have millions of people accusing the U.S. of intentionally trying to poison the genetically-susceptible Han race with beef exports. So maybe you’re on to something there. Maybe we should instead applaud the courageous Korean people for their willingness to disregard facts and basic rationality in favor of the time-honored argument: “It’s all the Yankees’ fault.” So fine a distillation of truth, free of burdensome “facts,” or the highfalutin “evidence” that cold, Ivory-tower commentators are always prattling on about. Truly, the righteous mob of many a candle-lit vigil sees through such paltry intellectualism to the REAL truth of the matter.
After all, the idea that Americans are responsible for all of Korea’s problems may not actually BE true, but it FEELS true. In fact, it SHOULD BE true, and in a better world, it WOULD BE true. So, in essence, these seemingly foolhardy demonstrations are actually simply trying to hold the world to a higher, and better, ideal. And isn’t that what really counts?
Colontos, that was genious self paroody. NK is one of my many sock puppets.
Alas, poor NK has never been to Korea and has never met an expat himself, yet fancies himself an expert on both subjects based on genetics. He is sublime in his condescention and envy of any genetically impure person who would dare experience Korea. He finds the crime of living while white highly offensive, and I use him to purge myself of all my racist demons.
“My great concern is not whether you have failed, but whether you are content with your failure.” – Abraham Lincoln
Arguably, the greatest president the U.S. has ever had, Abraham Lincoln, was considered a failure many times during his life. I’m glad he didn’t take the acceptable Korean way out.
But how can I when my condencension knows no bounds, is no respector of race, position, or nationality.
It is unbridled in its enthusiasm for logic, compassion, openmindeness and truth, while lazerlike in its recognition of bigotry, hypocracy, illogic and other forms of unrigorous and slovenly thought.
Of course it might occassionally be easier to go through life as an sheeplike, unquestioning, self-absorbed, self justifying idiot who is politically correct without comprehending and, having no appreciation for the richness of unbiased, dispassionate thought, basks in the virtues of bland nonoffensive, conventional pieties.
Sheer genious, Granfalloon. Between you and NK, I think I have both sides covered.
@Colontos:
I always wondered about the origins of the 두음 법칙 and finally found an answer here on page 29 of the book The Korean Language by Iksop Lee and S. Robert Ramsey. The l/n and l/y pronunciation shift occurred hundreds of years ago, but in 1966, the North offically changed the spelling and required people to pronounce the words according to the revised spelling. It’s incredible to think that people could be forced to change their pronunciation of so many words. I also wonder why ethnic Koreans in China use the same pronunciation and spellings.
Instead of your moralistic and arrogant bitching, count yourself lucky passions were not directed against you when your brother-in-spirit Cho Seung-hui slaughtered sixteen times as many. On purpose.
Thanks Sonagi for the reference from “Korean Language” – isn’t Google Books awesome? I just wish they didn’t block out some of the pages.
Thanks, Sonagi, very interesting.
Yuna, sometimes its much more simple, a Roh that I know, when asked simply stated she didn’t want foreigner thinking negatively or laughing at being “Miss No”.
I lose.
@Linkd
Don’t relish & rejoice in your losing too much..
Here’s the other side of the coin (or camera)..
Joongang fails to mention that the police came and destroyed the funeral stands with their sticks at 5:30am in the morning, which got the crowd mad in the first place.
The guy at the beginning does look like he makes trouble for a living though..missing a tooth and all.
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