This… this is an assault on the planet’s cultural heritage:
Now, Kashgar is about to be sacked again.
Nine hundred families already have been moved from Kashgar’s Old City, “the best-preserved example of a traditional Islamic city to be found anywhere in central Asia,” as the architect and historian George Michell wrote in the 2008 book “Kashgar: Oasis City on China’s Old Silk Road.”
Over the next few years, city officials say, they will demolish at least 85 percent of this warren of picturesque, if run-down homes and shops. Many of its 13,000 families, Muslims from a Turkic ethnic group called the Uighurs (pronounced WEE-gurs), will be moved.
In its place will rise a new Old City, a mix of midrise apartments, plazas, alleys widened into avenues and reproductions of ancient Islamic architecture “to preserve the Uighur culture,” Kashgar’s vice mayor, Xu Jianrong, said in a phone interview.
They can’t be serious, can they?
{ 64 comments… read them below or add one }
Another example of cultural genocide from the Chinese government. The ethnic Mongolians of Inner Mongolia, the Hill Tribes of Yunnan and South West China, the Uighurs of Xinjiang (and Greater Turkestan) and the Tibetan peoples of the Tibetan Autonomous region, Qinghai, and Western Sichuan, not to mention other minority non-Han Chinese in the rest of China. For me this is just another example of exploiting and demeaning what is perceived as a rival culture by destroying unique examples of cultural identity or assimilating it into a tourist showpiece.
This makes me so angry!
Is there anything we in the rest of the world can do about it?
But even the culture of the Han Chinese are being “modernized”, culturally signicificant buildings in Beijing and other cities too have and are being razed too. The ancient city wall was dismantled.
This is part of the development that goes hand in hand with economic growth. Personally I do not agree with most aspects of it but to say that this is cultural genocide practised by the Hans against the minorities is ignorant or mischievous.
Yup, they did the same to their own capital city, bulldozed the famous “hutong” alleyways with courtyard-centered wooden clan-houses… tragic, but typical.
> Is there anything we in the rest of the world can do about it?
I’d venture a “no”.
I wouldn’t agree that razing culturally or historically significant buildings is necessarily part of economic progress. Why is it not possible to restore instead of rebuild? I agree that there has also been cultural and historical disintegration of important structures for the Han Chinese as well. For the Olympics much of the old hutong areas in downtown Beijing were demolished and rebuilt in the ‘new old’ style for the tourists. I saw sections of the Great Wall in 2007 having all of the original bricks taken off and replaced with new bricks so that the view from the new highway was more photogenic. Many towns that originally had city walls have seen them removed for road access and building construction.
I think this kind of thing is sad wherever it happens, although in my experience in China the buildings that are built to replace these structures in non-Han areas are not owned or operated by the original inhabitants, or even by other local businessmen of the same indigenous background. Instead there is a policy of barring ownership to all except those of Han ethnicity. Look at any of the businesses in major cities in Western Sichuan, Qinghai or Xinjiang. It is a sad pattern, and I also don’t think that there is anything that can be done.
History and culture are not necessarily victims of progress and it is that view which saddens me.
Ah, man. I was in Kashgar last summer and spent an afternoon wandering around the old city. It was a seriously cool place – all old mud-walled houses with courtyards. The place is an architectural treasure, not to mention the actual home of thousands of Uighur people.
Why do the Chinese have to fuck everywhere up? The Han have a way of ruining places…
That is because, they think it is better. Hey, running water, electricity, modern sewage system, the Chinese think that bright sparkly buildings full of shopping malls selling everything a consumer needs, is progress. It takes time for them to learn, some Chinese are beginning to realize that and are speaking up to protect their heritage but education is required. It has already begun in Beijing and Shanghai.
It is not only the Chinese, look at what the Koreans and Japanese lost as well during their rush to economic success. A lot of the heritage that you see today is a conscious effort to rebuild the old but it takes $$$. As China gets richer, bellies better feed, more exposure to the outside world, the Chinese will do the same.
For our part, we can share our experience with them, humbly and sincerely. Bashing will not work.
“Instead there is a policy of barring ownership to all except those of Han ethnicity.”
I know of no such policy, in fact there is clear positive discrimination for the minorities. They get the no interest or low interest business loans, help from local colleges etc. In fact many Han Chinese want to be classified as minorities because of the privileges.
Of course, there is racial tension. It also exists in the western world. Again the Central government is very sensitive to this. A primary tenet of the (ex)Communist Party is the equality of all races within China. Again a lot has to do with lack of education and how some Han Chinese feel about the unequal opportunities allocated to minorities.
http://www.everyculture.com/Russia-Eurasia-China/Introduction-to-China-Minority-Policies.html
Because they have money and arrogance to burn and a “harmonious” rule to promote.
The CCP has also attempted to revise history, not just in text books but in destroying history that they feel confounds their “harmonious” society. Archeological finds in China have been suppressed because they are contrary to the state-sponsored history of the Uighur people who now wish to retain their culture in a modern China whose leadership are uncomfortable with such. Many graveyards that held graves from the cultural revolution were systematically destroyed. That part of Chinese history is avoided as is June, 1989 or simply retold in a revised form. Gogureyo buildings have been rebuilt — Chinese style — as opposed to their original form since this is yet another way of revising history to suit the political needs of the day.
Frankly, the current rulers of China are not as open-minded as the Mongols were centuries ago, regarding the many different cultures that came under their sway.
“This is part of the development that goes hand in hand with economic growth. Personally I do not agree with most aspects of it but to say that this is cultural genocide practised by the Hans against the minorites is ignorant or mischevious.”
maotai:
The Chinese gov’t may spit out as propaganda that this razing, er, renovation of Kashgar is all in the name of economic and/or BS progress, but, in this case, as it turns out, calling it cultural genocide is not ignorant or mischievous.
I lived in Xinjiang province for a year back in ’03 and I can assure you that the Chinese government is methodically eradicating any and all evidence of the Uyghur (as I learned to spell it when I lived there, so all you spelling and grammar vultures can chill – there really no consensus as to the English spelling) culture as much as they possibly can.
There is and has been a long, acrimonious history between Beijing and these semi-nomadic peoples, who have lived in what is now Xinjiang for centuries. It was actually a country independent from China (and the former Soviet Union, for that matter) for several years about 70 years or so ago (it was called East Turkestan) before chairman Mao came to power. A group of prominent Uyghurs mysteriously and conveniently died in a plane crash as they flew to Beijing to meet with Mao to discuss the relationship between Mao’s government and the fledgling Turkestan one.
And Beijing has had the upper hand, oh so forcefully, ever since.
In response to rudder in post #1, there isn’t much to be done because Richard Gere and the rest of his Hollywood do-good cronies don’t chum with the Uyghur Dalai Lama and there is no “seven years in East Turkestan” for all of us to see.
Why am I so cynical and negative about what can(‘t) be done? Because the events of september 11, 2001, in the US gave the Chinese government carte blanche permission to start using a heavy hand on ANYBODY found to be supporting, in any way, the Uyghur/Turkestan cause.
Believe me, I know this firsthand.
I can’t believe after all these years of being in the Hole that I see something about this. Never woulda thunk it.
Thanks, Robert, for bringing it to light, even as it will have blown over by tomorrow with further news of “foreigner flu” or “Roh’s faked suicide”.
peace
they are serious.
Han Chinese are Nationalist Socialist and Racists.
The new brown shirts with the superiority complex.
a war to combat these people is looming.
the only difference from the old evil force is that,
these people pride themselves on copying.
and their strange love affair with cheap stuff.
who makes fake eggs for consumption?
It’s been long noted that the the forces of Stalin mutated into fascist dictatorships in a span of 50 some years. Who noted it? –wjk.
RJK, I will not apologize for everything I wrote above. Nothing I said is false.
One key point that Robert excluded and others have ignored:
> Demolition is deemed an urgent necessity because an earthquake could strike at any time, collapsing centuries-old buildings and killing thousands. “The entire Kashgar area is in a special area in danger of earthquakes,” Mr. Xu said. “I ask you: What country’s government would not protect its citizens from the dangers of natural disaster?”
The area probably needs reconstruction anyway, after xx years of neglect, for this reason — just as it’s been rebuilt and “modernized” by current standards many times over thousands of years — the question is how “authentic” they can still rebuild those bick/mud structures while still making them safe by modern standards… Don’t assume the intention is ALL evil “cultural genocide”…
Such outrage over some ramshackle mud and brick huts neglected for over a thousand years.
#8 dissidentdave:
…there is and has been a long, acrimonious history between beijing and these semi-nomadic peoples, who have lived in what is now xinjiang for centuries.
Are you American? Tecumseh of the Shawnee tribe would like to know where the hell you were about 200 years ago.
NetizenKim, for once I agree with you. Note that Whitey has bulldozed his way through to the pinnacle of Western Civilization and annihilated entire continents of culture… we got the expertise to point out another country’s fault. LOL.
hey wjk, who are worse? the 김’s in Korea, or the Han Chinese? Which do you hate the most? It’s become hard to tell lately.
Let’s hope the reconstruction bids don’t go to the same companies that built schools in central Sichuan Province.
Oooh… too soon, Sonagi.
well, cmm, my enemy.
I believe that South Korean history classes still attempt to defy visual logic and teach little children that
1/ Shilla and the Kim family united the Peninsula and that allying with Tang China was the best move ever. Besides look at Balhae, it looks like a huge cock, and it’s Korean. Huh? Balhae IS Korean? How come we know the least about Balhae among all ‘Korean’ histories?
2/ Kim Jongil and his father were basically ass spreaders and cock suckers to the People’s Republic of China for all their administrative careers. Different Kim clan, my ass. They are ultimately related.
speaking of Jeollado, my father says in many Korean circles, people from Jeollado aren’t even considered ‘human’.
that’s because they ‘stab people in the back.”
well, I do see a bit of that in bumfromkorea and thekorean.
However, it is ultimately true, true, and true that Shilla and Kim Korea stabbed the peninsula in the back with historic ramifications in the year AD 660 and AD 668. That territory is lost for eternity. It’s a beautified stab in the back, and we continue to confuse little children and cover it up as adults, because they are ‘our ancestors’.
and besides, look at Balhae. It looks like a huge cock and it’s Korean.
As an adult, I see that this Jeollado stab in the back advice/warning is probably just a ramification of regional hate/rivalry and I expect it to perpetuate.
R. Elgin
Perhaps the Chinese should learn from their betters!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-ghosts-of-empire-are_b_208910.html
to netizen kim @ #11
“Are you American?”
~
No, I’m from Los Angeles…
“Tecumseh of the Shawnee tribe would like to know where the hell you were about 200 years ago.”
~
Sorry, wasn’t around to help them. We Angelenos were too busy stealing land from Mexico and eradicating Mexicans…
To their credit, though, they didn’t go away!
dissidentdave
Guess the Chinese government would have less problems with the Uighurs if they are reduced to a population of <14,000 like the current Shawnee population. But then the Chinese are not very efficent in real genocide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shawnee
“maotai”, two wrongs will never make for justice. Your comment is a weak foil often used by the CCPs 50-cent club, made only when they have no legitimate point to make.
Under its current leadership, the PRC will only surpass America in vice only and considering what America has done, that is pretty bad. I would wish for China better but those that do not learn the lessons of history do often repeat old mistakes. What is truly vile is how a repeated vice soon becomes a virtue in the hands of politicians such as the CCP.
Elgin
As a non native Chinese who has been living in China for the past 8 years, I can see the progress in terms of human rights that this country has made. China is a vast country and the level of development is unequal and uneven.
I fault the Chinese government for its unwieldness and many of its corrupted minions but I believe that there are people in power here who are sincerely and doing their best for their country and its people (regardless of ethnicity).
All nations have skeletons in their historic closets and China with its long ancient history has its share as well. In the given link, it is the first I as a citizen of a Commonwealth country has heard of mother England’s atrocities in Kenya when one gets bombarded by Tibet and Xinjiang on an almost daily basis. And if everything is swimmingly well in the UK, what’s with British terrorist cells?
Luke 6-42 How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you don’t see the beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you’ll see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
“maotai”, your commentary that does not address the important issue that underlies the PRCs motivations.
The thesis is not how far anyone has gone (which is still not enough) but rather that the reality of Chinese Government today is that of political expediency over quality or any insight or truth. As I originally observed, the government will use any means to promote “harmony” within the country. It will use, create, destroy history, people or material to promote this “harmony” regardless of what good or evil may ensue simply because it suits their political goals. There is enough documentation available through the internet of such as well. I only linked to a few cases.
Very often, one sort of evil performed is when one does something, claiming the the ends justify the means and that is a very immoral path to take, one you should consider before you start spouting bible passages and exercising hindsight as to who did what when. This China we are commenting upon is in the here and now.
Interesting article and comments on the same topic;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/28/china-heritage-conservation-silk-road
Elgin
The China I see today;
- a central government trying to give the best quality of life to all its citizens
- a young dynamic hardworking workforce eager to learn
- the combination that has brought China in 20 years from a backward country with everyone in a mao suit to people with mobile phones, cities filled with GM cars, Starbucks, KFC(!) and Macdonalds(!)
I also see;
- uneven and unfair policies done mostly out of ignorance
- corrupt officials and related businesses
- no safety net for the underprivileged
- no healthcare services for the poor
- ….
I see the evil in individuals and their actions but I do not see that in this government.
“maotai”, you have not been looking hard enough, especially if you have been living there for eight years — as you claim or your understanding of evil does not encompass the Chinese Government, in particular.
Your POV is highly suspect.
Elgin
Perhaps I am used to the idea that good governments have to make hard choices and to try please most of the people, who will otherwise revolt and throw them out or worse.
Even the (ex)Communist Party of China is not all powerful and immune to a successful revolution.
You’re on to something there, Maotai. The Chinese government does aspire to raise people’s standard of living and increase China’s global power. However, its overriding concern that trumps all other goals is for the CCP to maintain exclusive government control. Sometimes the government addresses public concerns to appease the masses. At other times the government crushes dissent to avoid potential mass movements that could threatne its hold on power. The national government is not elected. High-ranking officials owe their positions not to the people but to lower-ranking government officials who support them. Government corruption continues to hamper economic growth and depress quality of life because the monkeys laugh off the occasional cullings of chickens that fell afoul of the imperial court in Zhongnanhai.
threatne = threaten
I call it the Shangri-La Syndrome.
At some deep inner level, Westerners cherish an exoticized, romanticized vision of the Orient. Modernity is an anathema. Now here is a reason why the fate of Tibet (the real, non-fictional Shangri-La), for instance, is a big deal for many Westerners. The opinions that you see expressed regarding Kashgar, an important trade city along the ancient Silk Road, is not a dissimilar instance of Shangri-La Syndrome.
What is happening in Kashgar also happens in the US. We call it “gentrification”. In fact, it has been happening throughout history. I would like to be able to travel to Brittania and witness flowered druid maidens prancing naked around some huge stone markers during the winter solstice but the damn Romans came and built roads, aqueducts and imposed law and order. It hasn’t been the same since.
The Shangri-La Syndrome is a subset of what is generally known as Orientalism. An important component of Orientalism also happens to be that Oriental rulers are cruel, despotic, and arbitrary. Note that the familiar criticisms of the Chinese government fall neatly into this pattern. The fact of the matter is that the Chinese government is not doing anything different from the policies of the US government during the 1800′s in the quest to settle the great Western frontier (“Go West, young man”). In fact, what the West is now calling “oppression” at the hands of Chinese authorities of the Uighur they used to inflict themselves on native savages around the world, except then it was a “great civilizing mission”, also known as the White Man’s Burden.
There are many Westerners who act as stand-in apologists for Japanese colonial rule, stating that the Japanese introduced modernity to a hopelessly backward kingdom that was Chosun in the late 1800′s. Yet these same Westerners decry Chinese development in Xinjiang. Once in a while a Westerner comes to Korea and is very disappointed to discover that Koreans don’t go around in white hanbok and live in straw-thatched houses.
For the most part, you cannot trust Western opinion when it comes to matters concerning the East.
#28 Sonagi:
…because the monkeys laugh off the occasional cullings of chickens that fell afoul of the imperial court in Zhongnanhai.
Either I’m having difficulty parsing this statement or Sonagi is demonstrating her knowledge of obscure Chinese proverbs (again).
杀鸡给猴看
The proverb’s literal translation is “kill the chicken in front of the monkey,” but it’s often translated as “kill the chicken to scare the monkey.” The proverb is often cited to explain China’s law and order approach of periodic crackdowns and public trials and executions.
Another version is identical to the common English translation: 杀鸡吓猴, or “kill chicken scare monkey.”
Here’s the thing about the whole Uighurs = Indians thing.
Yeah, what the white man did to the Indians was bad. And yeah, all Americans today benefit from it, as we’re all living on Indian land. Or Mexican or Spanish land, which was of course all Indian land in the first place.
We (Americans) stopped doing it over 100 years ago. You might say that’s because the Indians ran out of land for us to take. And you’re probably right. But it’s over.
More importantly, it is almost universally condemned by Americans today. I think 50% of American history taught in skool is about the Indians. Plenty of guilt is spread around to the white kids especially. Presidents have apologized. Certain types of very limited “reparations” (Casino rights, etc) have been made. This doesn’t erase what happened, of course, but it’s over and we feel bad about it.
Now we see the Chinese doing something similar.
Let me first say that I am not one of these “Free Tibet” hippies.
Is it wrong for us to say that what the Chinese is doing to Tibet, Uighurs, etc. is wrong? Is it wrong for us to condemn it, just because we have something similar in our past (and not in living memory, I might add)? Can’t we apply the lessons we learned?
Look at slavery. The English practically invented the slave trade as we think of it today. They did a good amount of it. Most of the slaves that made it to America before the Revolution, and a lot after, came on English ships. But then the English criminalized slavery in 1833, and, what’s more, they became slavery’s most vociferous critics. They roundly criticized America for continuing slavery. They kept up that criticism until slavery was abolished ~30 years later, and in fact slavery and the Emancipation Proclamation were a major reason that England did not decide to support the CSA in the Civil War. Now, should we Americans, at that time or today, yell at the English to shut up cause they did it too? I think not. What’s wrong is wrong, and stating that it’s wrong is never a bad idea.
Sonagi
“kill chicken scare monkey.” LOL, that is what we call Singlish or Singaporean English.
The Chinese public has seen what happened to the mighty USSR. How drop in living standard for the ordinary Russian, life expectancy has fallen and infant mortality has risen … Russian and ex USSR women prosituting themselves in bars all over China. You don’t hear a lot of that in the western media. Many in the west are just rubbing their hands gleefully on how the west brought down the Russian empire and how it was no longer a threat… who cares if the ordinary Russian suffers?
No, the Chinese do not want that for China. In their experience which is long, “chaos” 乱 is to be feared, families are torn apart, millions will die. No one would really care when millions of Chinese died except for the Chinese.
If I remember my history, I believe that the Chinese tend to care least of all when millions of Chinese die.
Your memory of what you learned in Western Civilizations is faulty. It was the Portuguese who started the transatlantic slave trade and brought the first African slaves to the Americas. They weren’t the first to transport African slaves across continents and seas. The Arabs did that. A fair number of Gulf Arabs from prominent families are the descendents of African slaves, especially female household help. Former Saudi Ambassador to the US Prince Bandar stands out from his half-brothers with features that belie his claim to have been born of a woman who was pure Saudi and not an African servant in his father’s household.
colontos
Everyone in China knew what a disaster the Great Leap Forward was and so was the Cultural Revolution. These led directly to the rise of Deng Xiaoping and his followers bringing reforms to China and the CCP.
colontos
The Chinese are NOT doing the same to the minorities as what the whites did to the American natives. What the whites in America did was genocide and it took them a 100 years to start realizing it.
Minorites in China, have the right to have more than 1 child, the Hans are kept to a 1 child policy. There is positive discrimination in university allotments for minorities, special language schools to preserve their languages and business loans at preferential rates. In fact, many Hans with some minority heritage try to get official recognition as minority to enjoy these privileges. And to think that the Hans did not wait a 100 years to do all these. Because they believe that all these minorities are also Chinese.
Too bad the minorities themselves don’t believe it.
A drop in the bucket compared to 1.3 _billion_.
@maotai:
You’re correct that the Chinese government has not carried out a genocide in lands historically inhabited by minorities, who are allowed more than one child and some other benefits. At the same time, however, the Chinese government is deliberately increasing the percentage of Han Chinese living in these lands by bringing in Chinese migrants, who receive financial incentives to move to less developed western and southwestern provinces with harsh climates and less fertile terrain. One reason is lebensraum, the need to reduce population pressure on the developed east, and the other reason is to cement the incorporation of these lands into the PRC by making China’s minorities real minorities in their own historic homelands. Besides resettling Han Chinese in restive provinces, the Chinese government also sends minority students to study in colleges faraway in the east. Apart from suppression of separatist and anti-government groups, China’s policy of Sinocizing Tibet and Xinjiang is non-violent but will likely achieve success in assimilating China’s minorities into the Han population just as the Manchus have become an extinct culture. The genes will survive, but the languages and the cultures probably will not.
Sonagi
You are probably right about that. Then this is a process that has been going on for the past 5,ooo years. Even the majority Han are made up of old tribes that were assimilated culturally. One can see the physical differences between a Cantonese, Hunanese, Sichuanese and a person from Dongbei but they all identify themselves as a Han.
However I believe, that the minorities today are resilient to assimilation and with the minority cultural schools preserving the heritage. China itself also realize the need to keep the cultural biodiversity.
I also agree that the move of Hans into Tibet and Xinjiang for the purposes you stated.
i used to joke that had the Japanese succeeded in conquering China. The China in 200 years would include Japan and its other conquests and the Japanese would end up as the Manchus.
. . . and thus (per #41) the value of things “non-Han” or perceived as not supportive of a “harmonious society” is considered worthless and subject to destruction, suppression, revision — in the case of history and the creation of an official POV.
Such policies are not by chance and are directed from the highest levels of the CCP. Lastly, the only bright points during this process comes from the virtuous individuals that may be in a position to exercise better judgement without being noticed by the party system.
Some minorities will hang on longer than others. Tibetans and Uighurs, who are most resistant to Chinese rule, maintain a distinct cultural identity reinforced by religion. Other minorities are assimilating quickly. In northeastern China, Korean-medium schools are closing as Korean-Chinese think a Chinese-language education will secure a better future for their children. Some Korean-Chinese couples speak Chinese at home to their children. This is no different than in the US, where heritage languages disappear in the second or third generation. For ethnic Koreans at least, assimilation appears to be voluntary.
China preserves minority cultures but only in a museum relic sort of way. Ethnic minority representatives to the national rubberstamp congress parade around Tiananmen Square in traditional dress while Han Chinese delegates sport suits and ties. National holiday celebrations feature ethnic music and dances performed by mostly Han Chinese in glitzy, spangled Vegas-meets-Xinjiang costumes. Ethnic Tibetans are trotted in front TV cameras to sing “Han and Tibetans have one mother, and that is China.” Ordinary Chinese seem genuinely and positively interested in minority peoples, but authentic representations of minority cultures are buried under political correctness and commercialism.
To be fair though “maotai”, any government has the tendency to become a “tower of Babel” — a large, organized entity that, though staffed by intelligent people, becomes subverted by those wishing to maintain control and by people who have lost sight of the organization’s reason for being. Think of it like a large-scale “Stockholm Syndrome”.
The result reminds me of the golem of Jewish folklore, created to help protect the people but eventually becomes a soulless, shambling giant that causes more problems than what it was created for. Unfortunately, there is a shortage of enlightened rabbi to regulate these modern golem and then the rabbi might be persecuted for being either counter-revolutionary or for being a “terrorist”.
Whenever a government losses sight of the individual within a society, placing the functionality of the society above the individual, thus corrupting the legal system so that it is uniformly weighted against the rights of the individual, that government is effectively dead though it continues to function, like a golem, without a higher sense of ethics that distinguishes the best of humanity from the worst.
China is ultimately engaged in a struggle to realize its humanity and potential as such. I hope it succeeds though so far it seems to have too many in leadership positions that have a backwards way of thinking.
Elgin
I think I understand your point but I do think that there are culutural differences. In fact, Chinese Communism is in the process of being subsumed by Confucianism. Again Confucianism is not biased towards the individual but social harmony. This maybe be difficult for a typical Western to accept but is built into the cultural DNA of the Chinese.
I agree with you that China is still finding its way forwards and I think it will settle on a balance of the traditional Confucian based society and the recognition of the aspirations of the individual. Somewhat like Singapore
Sonagi
It is a problem that tests most countries. Using the experience of the Chinese in Korea, Japan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, Australia and the US. I would say that China has treated her minorities better than most.
I am beginning to think that a cultural war is being waged and maybe in 200 hundred years we’ll all be English speaking Confucians!
“it (China) will settle on a balance of the traditional Confucian based society and the recognition of the aspirations of the individual” — only when the current crop of corrupt thugs that run the party are purged and a functional system of justice, free of Party interference, is insured.
As of this moment, I am not optimistic for such happening any time soon.
Labeling what has been going on in China as a kind of cultural difference (that outsiders would not understand) is not adapt. These ruling caste are as venial and conniving as any regime has ever been on the planet and are probably the best at this game currently, considering their intelligence. The leadership of China today are a in a Special Class of Evil™ that is all about the power and money. As for one tiny example, before the Olympics there, they turned out many Chinese from their homes for the Olympics and paved over much of historic Beijing. Now that the Olympics are over, a good portion of that space they took from citizens will now be “developed” into commercial space and guess who profits from that effort and who does not.
It will take special people to raise the country from this sort of kleptocracy and I just can not imagine when or if that will occur.
Sonagi,
That’s what I meant by the slave trade “as we think of it today.” As in the Middle Passage, plantations, etc. I know the Arabs did it first, but it was quite different. The English were the first, and best, and turning it into big business and making loads of money.
The English were the first what? They weren’t the first to bring African slaves to the Americas or to what is now the United States. How were the English “the best” at the slave trade? Most Africans brought to the Americas as slaves came on Portuguese or Spanish ships and lived in the Caribbean or South America. Brazil has more people of African heritage than the US. If “we” think the British were “the first and the best” at the transatlantic slave trade, it is because “we” are myopically narrowing our view of a very international slave trade to the thirteen British colonies.
Who fucking cares about Brazil?
And I believe I said “turning it into a big business and making lots of money.” We’re talking about the slave *trade*, not the “bringing in slaves because you need them to work.” Buying, selling… the English were bringing in slaves to places they didn’t own. It was business.
Regardless, I’m pretty sure my original point is valid, regardless of whatever nitpicking you’re feverishly masturbating to.
Colonial landowners in the Americas did not import their own slaves any more than Americans today import their own food or household goods. They bought or bartered with slave traders. The British dominated the transatlantic slave trade during the 1800s; some slaves were sold in the US while others were sold to British sugar plantation owners in the Caribbean. First? No. Best? In the 1800s, yes. During the entire four centuries of the transatlantic slave trade? Debatable.
And masturbation never crosses my mind when I see your username. I do get a little excited when I see references to pop culture from the 70s and 80s.
It’s like you gave colontos a ‘C’ on his book report, he argued you weary, and you finally said, ‘Oh, OK, I’ll give you a B this time’.
And you call yourself a teacher. Now little colontos is going to go through life thinking he can just make up history as long as he argues loud and long enough. To fortify your spine, I suggest you hand out a liberal amount of poor grades at school this week so as to let your real-world students know who’s boss.
Bay City Rollers (?). Village People. Rubik’s Cube? Waterbeds. Leisure suits. Shag haircuts. Bell bottoms.
The overall Han population of Xinjiang is above 40%, and in cities above 70%… but below 10% in Kashgar. I believe this is going to change.
Somewhat ignores the fact that the British were the first and the best at killing the transatlantic slave trade. No only were they the second in europe to ban it (I believe denmark was ahead by a few years, although to what practical effect I don’t know). The colonies in the west indies etc took longer but were later forced the same way. The British later went so far as to implement a naval policy of direct intervention to stop and board ships from other countries that largely killed off the trade by portugal et al.
Countries and peoples change, there is no hypocrisy in learning a lesson, and then trying to pass that on. The “you guys have done it too, yonks ago” argument is rather weak and meaningless.
Is also interesting that it was mostly “slave trade”, a goodly proportion of the african slaves were sold by africans, but its the people who bought them that seem to get all the blame. If there was no supply there’d have been no market.
“Between 1807 and 1860, the West Africa Squadron seized approximately 1,600 ships involved in the slave trade and freed 150,000 Africans who were aboard these vessels”
“Action was also taken against African leaders who refused to agree to British treaties to outlaw the trade, for example against ‘the usurping King of Lagos’, deposed in 1851. Anti-slavery treaties were signed with over 50 African rulers”.
Elgin
“The leadership of China today are a in a Special Class of Evil™ that is all about the power and money.”
So what class of evil do you put Bush & Cheney?
“maotai”, frankly, Bush and Cheney are not as accomplished as the Chinese are though Cheney might trump them on occasion. They are of a lower class in more than one way and probably should stand trial for their “virtues”.
More important to note, neither Bush nor Cheney have tenure and power like senior CCP officials do.
Elgin
You may not know it, the Presidency and Premiership of China are now limited to 2 terms (10 years).
I will have to disagree with you on Bush & Cheney. And about the “power & money” bit, I’d think that the executives at Wall Street and to a lesser degree their equivalents in the western world deserves a dishonorable mention as well.
#33 Colontos:
Is it wrong for us to say that what the Chinese is doing to Tibet, Uighurs, etc. is wrong? Is it wrong for us to condemn it, just because we have something similar in our past (and not in living memory, I might add)? Can’t we apply the lessons we learned?
When it comes to clashes between civilizations…might makes right. This is a rule of history. On what basis do you claim something is wrong or right? What is this “higher law” that you appeal to when you condemn Sinocization of Tibet and Kashgar?
In the absence of a “higher law” that is completely objective and applies equally to all civilizations, the first law is Might makes Right. The more powerful civilization will necessarily prevail over the weaker one.
The second law is that of natural legitimacy. The civilization that maintains a superior level of administration and ability to fulfill the material needs of its people is a legitimate one. Under Pax Romana inaugurated by the rule of Augustus Caesar, the Romans introduced an advanced system of irrigation in North Africa which saw fertility of its lands rise to a level never realized in the past and never to be repeated again after the disintegration of the Empire. The Romans were entitled to legitimacy by virtue of their superior engineering skills and legal code in all their conquered lands.
#45 Sonagi:
Some minorities will hang on longer than others. Tibetans and Uighurs, who are most resistant to Chinese rule, maintain a distinct cultural identity reinforced by religion. Other minorities are assimilating quickly.
China preserves minority cultures but only in a museum relic sort of way. …
Sometimes, the culture of the conquered prevails over that of the conquerors. This was true with regards to Ancient Greece with regards to the Romans and similarly, Chinese in relation to the Manchus.
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