Brian takes issue with a JoongAng Ilbo piece on foreign English teachers becoming the “epicenter” of new flu cases, while at Hub of Sparkle, Zenkimchi asks if swine flu is the new xenophobic witch hunt.
Well, I bring you the Kyunghyang Shinmun, which worries that the infected teachers may have spread the disease far and wide, noting how they were free to romp around the Seoul metro area and, at least in the case of one teacher, was even sent to Daegu via KTX.
Hey, this is serious stuff — on a day with a North Korean nuclear test and memorial ceremonies to late President Roh, the Hankyoreh still managed to pen one of its three editorials about the swine flu, namely, that the United States is now spreading the disease around the world (Marmot’s note: Wouldn’t it be funny if the United States, having refused to close the border with Mexico, finds itself shut out by flu-wary nations?), and that Korea needs to step up airport quarantines and prepare plans to block infections in public facilities.
And it wasn’t just the Hani — Ye Olde Chosun ran an editorial on the subject, too.
BTW, I got the following comment yesterday — can anyone confirm if this is true?
A friend of mine who works for EPIK got an email this afternoon saying:“This is to let you know that ALL foreign teachers who enter the country after May 11, 2009 are required to do a home quarantine for 7 days before returning to school.
During the quarantine, you are required to stay home and wear a mask if leaving the house temporarily to run errands such as grocery shopping. At the end of the 7 day quarantine, you must visit a public health clinic for a final checkup.”
Hey, maybe they can get an Incheon—Sorok-do shuttle going for all inbound passengers from the United States!
On a positive note, the Kyunghyang also reports that amidst concern the swine flu might spread in Korea with a spike in cases focused on foreign teachers, the “kimchi prevents swine flu” rumor is growing in strength. The thing to notice here is that with the exception of one Korean English teacher who lived with the infected foreign teachers, not one Korean was infected despite 14 of the teachers running around freely for about a week after entering the country. Health officials have tested about 85 people who came in contact with the diseased foreigners, but all came up negative for swine flu.
Nobody in the restaurants, shops or clubs they went to have reported symptoms.
So was it the kimchi?
Well, experts say it would be foolish to consider kimchi a preventative method since there’s no clear scientific basis for it, but one shouldn’t completely ignore the beneficial effects of kimchi, either, as it’s full of good stuff that prevents diseases. And some are predicting that the spicy side dish, which — according to research results by a local research team — was good at preventing avian flu, might have an effect on swine flu, which is believed to be similar.
One researcher noted that you’ve got to eat a lot of the stuff, though. And preferably well-aged kimchi.
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It’s a busy time to have a blog.
I will clarify that I don’t take exception to those teachers being the epicenter of the latest scare. After all, it’s not a hypothetical threat, or some vague stereotype (like how we’re druggies, or sexual predators); some of these teachers are infected, others were exposed, and everyone they were in contact with will have a right to be worried. What I wanted to take issue with was not that those teachers shouldn’t be quarantined—they should, in a proper way—but what’s looking like a growing fear of American teachers in general. I took issue with how this particular quarantine is being handled, not that it was an inappropriate response or anything.
We’ll see, but this might be nothing, or it might turn into another reason why we can’t be trusted around Korean kids.
After having read the three blogs written by some of the quarantine teachers, I’d say most of them became infected while in quarantine. I mean, they were allowed to interact with one another…They still do, apparently.
Why was this allowed? Did someone want them to become infected?
correction…quarantined teachers…
Most probably, they were allowed to intermingle at the facility because we now know that it is no more virulent than regular seasonal flu.
LOL. This shit is medieval.
Time to watch 괴물 again… best funeral scene ever and lampoons overreactive health officials:
http://movie.naver.com/movie/mpp/mp_preview.nhn?mid=5886
The golden rule has an inverse meaning:
“Don’t expect others to treat you better than they treat themselves.”
Yes Korea has reflexive xenophobia floating around in the culture. But they will quarantine anyone, Korean national or otherwise, if they’re suspected of harbouring dangerous virus. Don’t feel like a victim.
Let’s see how Kimchi power can over power swine flu from US.
Today one of the senior teachers was warning me not to hang out with foreigners in Seoul or Daegu, lol. He’s a biology teacher, btw.
This thread reminded me of this particular film that is to be released towards the fall:
http://www.d-9.com/
Why so much anxiety? Koreans have proven time and time again that they can be very level-headed and rational when faced with small emergencies. There isn’t any chance that something like this could be blown out of proportion. And certainly, Koreans would never be so unreasonable as to pin a biological phenomenon on a nationality. Besides, Koreans have a history of calm and rational behavior when it comes to relations with the US. I’m sure nothing could possibly go wrong with this situation.
And as long as I’m making shit up: I’m a ninja.
I’m curious about what legal authority the teachers are being quarantined and isolated under? What legal rights does the government have to just stop the teachers from just walking out the front door (apart from commonsense) ?
I wonder if the teachres have had access to a lawyer from the Ministry of Justice or have the right to consult a lawyer concerning what their rights are. Or has any of the individuals/group recieved assistance from an Embassy as to what rights they have/no longer have?
I wonder too if any organisation occurred within the group? Is there a leader or representative that acts for the group(s) as a whole? I guess lockdown would prevent this.
I guess I’m just trying to place myself in the situation of the quarantined. What are the questions that they should be asking? What kind of information are the health and justice ministries obligated to provide. What’s to stop the teachers form being in contact with media 24/7 should they so choose?
I’m also very interesting to learn the name and title of the highest Koeran authority that this group has had access to.
Hey Brendan Carr, excuse me.
What’s your take on all this? Who would you be consulting to ascertain your rights. Is there room for dissent? Are these teachers; A. In a situation to complain? or B. Likely to have any legal scope to make a claim at a later date?
I will never tire from the in-fighting. Consider
me amongst the amused.
Here’s my right: I choose not to get involved with English teachers’ “legal” matters or “rights”. Period.
Like clockwork. Whether you’re in trouble with your hagwon, got questions about a quarantine, or been badly burned in a fire, don’t bother him with your English teacher problems.
Like clockwork, there he is.
Hi Brendan,
My apologies. I forgot how much of a class act you are. Though not an English Teacher myself, I believe this matter supercedes mere matters related to profession, no?
In future I will be careful to replace the word “Teacher” with “American subject”.
It is your right, as you have written, to take whomever you’d like as a client. And as you have written, it just doesn’t pay to take on teachers going after their schools or whatever. But the guy just asked for some general advice about this situation, so that’s no reason to trot out your hobby horse again. Jeez.
Relax Brian D. Lawyers are very economical with their time. You can’t help every Tom, Dick and Harry with their legal problems. Besides there not being much money in it, judging by the sense of entitlement many English teachers from the first world seem to have, it would be a thankless job as well.
Brendon’s got bigger fish to fry and a family to support than total strangers who all he has in common is a native language.
My appologies to ✿⊹⊱⋛☃⋚⊰⊹✿.
“There are now a total of 22 cases here and authorities are considering banning mass meetings at relevant places in accordance with the Infectious Diseases Prevention Act. ”
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/05/117_45651.html
With Swine Flu being a mild flu blown out of proportion (1%~4% mortality rate), would you, if you found flu symptoms, tell your employeer / hospital or would you simply treat it like the flu and go on with your life?
I love Asia and I am more comfortable here than I am in the West but I don’t trust certain elements of this government (or most any where I am a foreigner). I would treat it like any other flu which for me means cancelling weekend plans and resting up. Normal flu? Piggy flu? I wouldn’t be too concerned.
Brendon Carr has got to be one of the biggest self righteous wankers on this blog or any blog except his own.
It’s less than thankless, WangKon. As you surmise, not only are there no thanks from any of these dirtbags, they actively attack those who offer the slightest help, or could but choose not to engage as much as demanded by those who aren’t clients. No thanks!
As for “badly burned in a fire”, you are kindly invited to stuff it, Deutsch. You don’t have any idea how I have historically responded, or how I would currently respond, to learning of that kind of suffering. Further, to equate such a thing with getting inconvenienced by an unreliable hagwon owner is patently absurd and offensive — but illustrative of the English teacher’s sense of entitlement that disgusts me.
Korea is not the only nation to overreact – all employees in the Taipei International Airport were decked out in protective masks when I left yesterday.
I think that the overreaction in E Asia is related to the scare with SARS a few years back, 2003?, which was a real threat. Fortunately though, catching SARS requires direct contact with birds. Koreans were scared enough by it though, to stop buying chicken for a month or more.
It’s a shame that the Korean government and the media aren’t doing their job. The government should be telling people that this is no more a threat than the normal flu. The newspapers are more interested selling papers by scaring people than in educating the populace.
I’d argue that the misinformation on swine flu has more to do with a prevalence of pseudo-scientific beliefs in the Korean medical establishment than with a concerted political effort to distract from North Korean nukes or Noh Moo Hyun.
I’d say there are some interesting legal issues here. From what I’ve read, only the English teachers were quarantined, even though members of the group routinely came in contact with Koreans. Many of those foreigners did not show any symptoms of the flu when they were placed in quarantine, but others are beginning to turn up sick. If I got sick while in quarantine from exposure, and I could prove discrimination, I think I’d have some kind of legal case in Korea.
I’ve been to Japan, China, and Malaysia since this outbreak started.
Japan is by far the most paranoid. I was there about three weeks ago, very shortly after the stories hit the press, and they had lots of extra provisions set up at the airport to screen us. The newspapers had stories of how to select a proper-fitting mask.
A lot of people in Hong Kong were wearing masks, too. Less so in Malaysia. The response by the Korean population seems to be the least of the three countries. Incheon just recently started taking the temperature of everyone getting off the plane before allowing them much past the boarding bridge.
One of my Korean friends who has a clothing factory and exports to Japan is capitalizing on the hype… has made “fashion masks” with ribbons and sequins to sell to the Japanese princesses.
I saw one of those “fashion masks” on the plane yesterday! Black with a diamond pattern on it. Looked a little like a masked bank robber, but I’m sure she felt well protected.
Actually, from what I heard on NPR a while back, flu virus can’t spread well through the air in higher temperatures when air holds more moisture. It’s too heavy and simply falls to the ground. So, all of these masks are really probably pointless.
Yes, there is plenty of evidence that the protection that the masks offer is limited at best.
Of course, there is even less evidence that kimchi offers any protection. …to any disease, actually.
I won’t accept your invitation, but, yeah, on second thought I was a little harsh.
Woah… are you implying that Koreans weren’t saved from bird flu because of Kim Chee? Actually, it is curious that Koreans continue to catch the regular flu despite eating Kim Chee. It’s also curious that confidence in Kim Chee has not prevented fear mongering about swine flu infected foreign teachers. Maybe Kim Chee just isn’t all that its cracked up to be.
Jesus Enrique Christo in a bean burrito, I’m dismayed at the ongoing talk of “rights” and “interesting legal issues’ and “discrimination” in expat blogs. All y’all ain’t in Kansas City no mo’, ‘kay? Here’s your assignment: find a movie from circa 1972 named “Midnight Express” and watch it. Then come back and we’ll talk about how Brendon sucks for not leaping into action on behalf of the quarantined teachers by filing habeas corpus writs or summoning Delta Force or whatever else you imagine U.S. lawyers have the power to do here (or in America any more, for that matter).
One of my Korean friends who has a clothing factory and exports to Japan is capitalizing on the hype… has made “fashion masks” with ribbons and sequins to sell to the Japanese princesses.
Now that’s taking lemons and making lemonade. Or 식해 from hay.
By the way, who is Kim Chee? A new K-Pop tart?
Give it time… in a few weeks a provincial national university will publish a low quality piece of research in a Korean scientific journal, possibly in Korean, which will be picked up by the press and accepted by a lot of the masses.
The logic in the journal article, if it follows the others that I’ve read will be analogous to this:
Acid kills sperm.
Coca Cola contains acid.
Therefore, girls who drink Coca Cola cannot become pregnant.
I do want to say, to avoid sounding like an ass, that I know that not all Koreans buy this horseshit. Just like last summer most didn’t buy the madcow bullshit. Instead, I think the majority were waiting for the mess to blow over so they could finally actually just buy some good, low-priced American beef.
I’ve seen Midnight Express, though it’s been a few years. I seem to recall the guy was busted for smuggling hash, arrested, tried and sent to prison. I also saw a movie called ‘Mighty Ducks’. It’s about hockey.
wangkon and weiku –
You guys seem confused. I’m not sure why you guys are sticking up for Brendon here. If you read what choon asked Brendon again, you’ll see that he asked for Brendon’s commentary. Choon didn’t ask Brendon to leave his office right now and start representing the quarantined. Brendon, a frequent commenter with posting rights here is obviously one of the MH’s most qualified people to make a contribution/answer choon’s question.
You guys act like choon was asking Brendon to take the case pro bono and take out a home equity loan on his 아파트, when actually a paragraph or two response from BC that enlightened the rest of us about the rights of these quarantined people was what choon seemed to want.
It was BC’s refusal to write such a short, informative response, on the basis that there were English teachers involved (although I’m sure it was obvious to him that the fact that they are English teachers was pretty irrelevant), that made BC come off as an elitist ass. Hence Brian and smurfystew’s appropriate responses.
# 22 B. Carr,
It wasn’t that long ago after you spoke of your disdain for English Teachers that you posted a Korean Blacklist of Teachers and asked anyone on that list to contact you. Mixed messages. Ambulance Chaser.
“English teacher’s sense of entitlement that disgusts me” why don’t you join the Korean media and goverment officials in their trashing of us? I’m sure you would get some satifaction out of it, with all that disgust you feel.
It’s a bit unfair the way lawyers get pumped for free advice all the time. I don’t like it when strangers approach me in a bar to practice their English, and I would imagine Mr. Carr feels the same way. Also, there is something to be said for specialization, folks. I don’t know what kind of law BC practices, but judging by the questions people seem to think he should answer, it’s apparently all of them. Seriously, people: would you ask a dentist why it burns when you pee?
I’ve found the advice given on Mr. Carr’s website (FREE advice, btw) to be very helpful. And I’ve found his comments on this blog useful and interesting (at least when he’s not on grammar vanguard or pointlessly trashing Obama). Does he come of as elitist? Yes, but I think it’s at least a little intentional. Brotha’s got a sense of humor.
tbonetylr — I will pay you W1,000,000 in cash if you can present in this thread by 9:00 p.m. Seoul time Tuesday, May 26 any credible evidence that I solicited the custom of any English teacher named on the blacklist. Otherwise, I will expect your retraction of this idiotic statement and your apology for all the jackassery that’s come my way from you. Because I know that you don’t have two nickels to rub together, I won’t ask for you to match the offer of cash.
you’d better hurry tbonetylr, first it was 5PM Wednesday, now it’s 9PM Tuesday.
I’m not dreaming, you did post the blacklist right? Why else would you post a blacklist of English Teachers?
I’ll try to look later, I’m busy now!
Granfalloon,
As cmm stated, I was merely encouraging BC to provide some general (not highly specialised) legal commentary on the matter.
Seeing as BC chooses to post legal commentary at his discretion in the K blogosphere and at his own blog it didn’t occur to me to be such a selfish and wildly outlandish request.
Somewhat abrasively, BC has declined to provide commentary in this instance. End of Story!
Well, since all the evidence of his claim would come from a Google search, it seemed excessive to drag it out till tomorrow. Anyway, I await his proof! Got the money right here…
tbonetylr, where are you going to look? this blog, where BC has editing privileges and where edits are not indicated?
“Hey Brendan Carr, excuse me.
What’s your take on all this? Who would you be consulting to ascertain your rights. Is there room for dissent? Are these teachers; A. In a situation to complain? or B. Likely to have any legal scope to make a claim at a later date?”
This was the way the request for information was posted. It wasn’t a demand. It wasn’t an order. All Brendon had to do was IGNORE it if he didn’t want to answer it. Instead he posted a vitriolic attack on English teachers, which he has since altered to something less nasty.
You can get the idea of what he had to say by this comment that is still up.
“It’s less than thankless, WangKon. As you surmise, not only are there no thanks from any of these dirtbags, they actively attack those who offer the slightest help, or could but choose not to engage as much as demanded by those who aren’t clients. No thanks!”
Choon is a dirtbag for asking a simple question which you COULD have just chosen to ignore? English teachers in general are all dirtbags? Why even troll the blogs that English teachers use if you feel that strongly about them? Why advertise your legal expertise in your name if you don’t want anything to do with “these dirtbags” Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog)?
Sounds like someone has some serious issues that he needs to resolve.
There’s always the Google cache, if I were to have edited past statements today in some vain attempt at a cover-up. Anyway, there is no such evidence, as I have been thoroughly fed up with the English-teacher “community” for quite some time and actively chased them away for years — much as one would chase away stray dogs, lest they tear into your garbage, shit in your yard, or bite you.
Brendan’s advice was solicited and he stated his refusal to give any. This refusal was met with some personal opinions on his character, and he responded in kind. And Choon, questioning why he “trolls” blogs frequented by English teachers is a little off the mark– it’s not like he’s picking fights on Dave’s ESL Cafe; this is the Marmot’s Hole, which aims to be relevant to a much broader segment of the English speaking population here. Just because English teachers show up here doesn’t make it an exclusive club.
And yes, he could have ignored the solicitation for his opinion. But everyone else could have likewise ignored his response. Unlike the snark that followed his response, however, someone asked for his input.
I mean Flint, not Choon.
Okay, so you didn’t ask us to contact you, but you gave legal advice which is a mixed message that you really care for us deeply!
Here is what you said…
“The blacklist is quite unlawful. Not only is it a criminal defamation violation under the Criminal Code, but the Labor Standards Act forbids employers to share blacklists. These teachers ought to complain to the prosecution.”
You want an apology from me, how about after your “apology for all the jackassery” you’ve said about English Teachers?
“Why even troll the blogs that English teachers use if you feel that strongly about them?”
Wow, that is an infringement of liberty, you’re effectively suggesting he can’t blog anywhere an english teacher might also post
“Why advertise your legal expertise in your name…”
Whose name should he advertise his legal expertise in then?
“One researcher noted that you’ve got to eat a lot of the stuff, though. And preferably well-aged kimchi.”
Eating lots of the stuff, by Korean standards, doubles the risk of gastric cancer.
http://www.newsobserver.com/home/story/442043.html
Japanese researchers have also found that the Japanese diet of salty and spicy dishes is linked to the high rates of gastric cancer (Korea also has a very high rate of gastric cancer).
Hey Choon, no one likes a freeloader. How ’bout some quid pro quo? Whatcha got to offer? Fancy dancy conversational swine flu English?
“No, Mr. Public Health Official, I shall not be quarantined voluntarily! I’m an American! Take your hands off me! I demand to speak to the American Ambassador! Stop it! That hurts! No! Don’t taze me, bro!”
Listen and repeat:
“Don’t taze me, bro!”
“Don’t taze me, sis!”
“Don’t taze me, pa!”
“Don’t taze me, grandma!”
I’m working on a screenplay. The working title is “A Boknal Afternoon”.
The dramatic climax of the movie shows ESL teachers run out on the rooftop, in protest of the new no smoking rule, to shout to the lone reporter below:
“KCDC quarantine center! KCDC quarantine center! KCDC quarantine center!”
Anyone interested in producing?
Or rather, they chant “KCDC quarantine center! KCDC quarantine center! KCDC quarantine center!” to the melody of Hickory Dickory, Dock.
(It’s a work in progress).
Hey Seouldout.. ahem… Jeff,
No one likes a hypocriticial wind up merchant.
Listen and repeat:
“It’s finally nice to live in country with real freedoms. Less government control and amazing privacy.” http://www.myspace.com/seouldout
You look a bit silly now, don’t you? Yes, you do look like a hypocritical wind-up merchant.
Hope you got your kicks for today….. eh bro!
To return to topic: In the name of public safety, I demand that Seorak-san National Park be evacuated (except for the monks, and all staff running excellent restaurants, motels & spas, who shall wear protective masks) — and all resident Americans be rounded up and shipped there, to be quarantined within that park until, say, the first winter snowfall. Wives & GFs accompanying on an optional basis. The quarantined Americans will still recieve full pay from their jobs, and have expense-accounts that include all traditional wines & liquors (for killing oral-based viruses), of course. Thereby, Korea’s children will be protected from this threat…
There are 45 minutes left for tbonetylr to come up with evidence for his absurd claim that I want and have invited the English-teacher trade and bag W1,000,000 of my cash. Anyone care to wager on the result?
Damn you Carr, just 1 more minute… Puhleeze! BTW
White or black tie tonight?
Carr, give it a rest.
I think it’s fair to say that tbonetylr is completely wrong. Moreover, why he pursues you, after all this time, is a question only he could answer.
Even so, this is begining to smack of a witchhunt enacted several months ago – one which, I hardly need to mention, was finally expunged from internet data repositories. That episode, if I remember correctly, seemed to enmire all parties in the end. Brendon, respectfully: tbonetylr is unquestionably an asshat extraordinaire, so why not leave it at that?
You’ve grown tiresome Carr. While, in the past, I have seen you contribute to online discussion with factual material or opinion on legal matters, your generalization of English teachers as stray dogs is patently offensive. I’ve been here a lot of years, kept my head down, worked hard, and gotten smart. I don’t deserve your scorn, or your offensive labels. So I’ll return the favor and call you a bloodsucking-lawyer-wannabe.
Your yard, garbage, and uppity self are all safe from me, bud.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but The Marmot’s Hole was until quite recently a blog for expats — as in people with real jobs, often in Korea for the long haul. Not “teachers” like me at the beginning (or end) of their careers on a lark for a year or two; and not the gyopos who take breaks from standing guard over “their” women at The Korean Table at universities and grad schools throughout North America in order to infest this place with their incessant whining that whitey be trying to date “their” women.
So leave Brendon alone. He’s one of the most interesting voices here when he writes about Korea, and all y’all know it. As someone pointed out upthread, he probably doesn’t work in any area of law remotely related to most of the real but occasional problems faced by some teachers here. And as no one has yet pointed out, lawyers are effectively prohibited from giving casual or general advice to non-clients (who invariably fail to mention key facts yet when things go wrong based on the “advice” they received at a cocktail party (or on the internet) are quick to complain to state bar associations and/or sue).
Besides, don’t you know by now? “Bloodsucking” is a compliment to real lawyers.
That being said, Brendon shame on you for not yet finding a way to capitalize on the occasional but very real needs of some teachers here for legal advice. Here you are, in a position to corner the market – full monopoly – yet instead you insult dozens or hundreds (or thousands?) of potential clients, and tell them to take a hike. You may or may not be a good lawyer, but clearly you are not a good businessman. Seriously, dude, at least have two or three referrals ready, so that when people ask for advice, you can tell them who to call. You never know when some “teacher” (whom you profess to despise) will find him or herself charged with murder, and turn out to be from a rich family willing to pay whatever it takes to see that “justice” is done.
Hey Choon… ahem… Dumdum,
“It’s finally nice to live in country with real freedoms. Less government control and amazing privacy.”
I’m living in a GCC country, and it ain’t one of the “freedoms” countries w/ booze, pork and Lebanese hookers.
This seouldout doesn’t have a my face or spacebook or any other social networking-type account. Pretty humourous of you thinking that only I have that moniker – really, are you that simpleminded?
Listen and repeat:
“Look before you leap, bro.”
You look a bit silly now, don’t you? I can see why Mr. Carr takes the piss out of the likes of you. Poor and daft doesn’t make for an attractive client.
And as for my getting my kicks for today; I hadn’t earlier, but now I have.
BTW, love your cacti.
Believe me, I’ve thought about it a lot. If there were a way I would have found it by now, 12 years in the market and me predisposed to tilt at windmills. There ain’t. Poor and daft does not a good client make.
I’ve even thought about making the effort to find good referrals. But the problem is, a call from an English teacher is almost always like a bag of turds — nobody wants it. I know I’m always annoyed when some other jerk lawyer gives one of these characters my number.
Sean Hayes is into these cases. Often takes them pro bono too. Let everyone know. Give him a call next time your hagwon master rips you off for w2 million or the cops accuse you of receiving someone else’s dope in the post.
Hey Jeff,
GCC country.. wow you are creative. No hookers or pork… damn you’ve done your research. So to answer your question, yes I am simpleminded enough to engage you in your petulant games of rash and baseless character judgments to serve my interests.
So I’m a poor, daft American English teacher and you’re Jeff… deal?
Since I’m neither American or an English Teacher, you too will need to look before you leap! Yeah, I’m daft at times. I’ve allowed myself to be drawn into your pathetic baiting.
Oh… and am I supposed to wave my job title and salary around now and to compare sizes?
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