Open Thread #101

by Robert Koehler on May 23, 2009

A very gray and sullen Saturday morning.

{ 62 comments… read them below or add one }

1 Curzon May 23, 2009 at 10:37 am: Roh is dead!
http://cominganarchy.com/2009/05/23/breaking-news-former-south-korean-president-roh-dead/
2 Sonagi May 23, 2009 at 10:59 am: Yeah, we know. See previous posts.
3 paulhewson May 23, 2009 at 10:59 am: Very sad. My condolences go out to his family.

People don’t realize. Hiking is some dangerous sh*t. Just the other day I fell and scraped my knee. And now in light of this current incident to think how close I came to death.

I want to write more but I can’t. I promised George W. Bush we would go hiking today. Hiking with Bush today and hunting with Cheney tomorrow. Busy schedule. Hope I don’t get some strange disease.
4 hardyandtiny May 23, 2009 at 11:34 am: “See the previous posts”

hahaha
5 hardyandtiny May 23, 2009 at 11:36 am: condolences to the family?

haha, oh my God, this is the best ever!
6 bricolage May 23, 2009 at 11:38 am: It’s is such a grey day. I read somewhere that ‘only assholes feel sorry for themselves.’ I feel a bit like an ahole today. so, I am going to shave, get outside and buy some groceries. Gotta shake this somehow.

And, I guess the strongest memory I have of President Roh is of him walking with his wife in North Korea, with hundreds of people on either side of them in hanbok waving fans.
7 WeikuBoy May 23, 2009 at 11:45 am: Just yesterday, 1st period classes began 5 minutes late because of a PA message in a female voice (unusual) that was played throughout the school. The message was on suicide. I wonder, what message will young Koreans receive from today’s news? The politics behind today’s news mean nothing to me. I do, however, feel immense sadness for my students, growing up as they do in a difficult society in which suicide seems to be the least unattractive option for so many of all ages. It’s not right.

I’d like to know more about why so many Koreans elect to kill themselves. But the first rule of Korea Club is that We Don’t Talk About Korea Club. Because talk equals criticism; and criticism equals racism (westerners kill themselves, too). I’ve learned that when Koreans accuse others of not understanding Korean culture, they don’t mean there is a Confucian reason for treating women so badly, or a well-being reason why ajosshis hock & spit every ten feet on the street. They mean don’t ask questions; because We don’t talk about Korea Club. Especially not in English; foreigners might see.
8 paulhewson May 23, 2009 at 11:50 am: OK. Finally reached the top so I am happy. But George isn’t happy.

The entire hike up he was like “where’s Reagan and where is my ddaaddy? I don’t see my ddaaddy. Where’s Reagan and my ddaaddy?” I kept telling him that Mt. Rushmore is very old and was carved long before either of those two presidencies.

But he doesnt listen. He SAYS he is open to debate and listens to all sides but he doesn’t listen. Listens to all sides, my ass! Yeah, right. Maybe in Flatland he listens to all sides. Maybe in Pointland he listens……

Now I’m sitting on a rock near the ledge typing this into my notebook computer some Republican think tank bought for George last year. “George! George!” Aaahhh hell, he doesn’t answer to George. “Hey, W., hey Dumb ass. What are you doing???? Step back from the ledge!!!! Oh, God NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOO……..”

Did he just jump?????? A beautiful swan dive off Lincoln’s head. Or did I push him?!?!?! I don’t know. But the ambiguity is killing me. And besides, I’m in some deep sh*t. I better forge a suicide note just to play it safe.

Very difficult. How would W. have written his suicide note? Must regress. Must regress. Think like a six year-old.

“Dear Mommy and Daddy,”

No, no, noooo.

“Deer Ddaaady and Mummy,

I did a bad ting. I did a very bad ting. I did a very, vary, very bad ting. Sorry. Aaaaaahhhhhh.”

What else.

“Tax cuts for the rich” No, no, no!

“Tax cuts for all Amerecains. War on terror. Lessons of 9/13.

Support my librarrrey. Tanks for listening. Gad bless America.

XXXOOO

W.”

Oh no. I’m sssoooo scared. Ssssooooo scared…… Will the secret service believe me? It was an accident!!!! Will Gus Grissom and the rest of CSI believe my, I mean W.’s, suicide note? They have got to believe me!!! I wrote it with crayons on a hundred dollar bill.
9 Granfalloon May 23, 2009 at 12:43 pm: I’m generally a fan of black humor, but usually only when it involves humor.
10 SomeguyinKorea May 23, 2009 at 12:55 pm: “I wonder, what message will young Koreans receive from today’s news?…I do, however, feel immense sadness for my students, growing up as they do in a difficult society in which suicide seems to be the least unattractive option for so many of all ages. It’s not right.”

I totally agree. This has the potential to make things much worse for kids, far worse than when another B-list entertainer commits suicide.

Even in death, he manages to exasperate.
11 wookinponub May 23, 2009 at 1:08 pm: Can’t say I have much sympathy for anyone involved, family or otherwise. They’re all corrupt. Too bad more of the world’s dirty elite don’t off themselves sooner.
12 colontos May 23, 2009 at 1:12 pm: In a way, this is a totally appropriate ending for Roh. He was a failure in everything. Killing himself is his first success.

But as you said, even in death, still the same old Roh. Frustrating.
13 wookinponub May 23, 2009 at 1:21 pm: It appears as though his family will get to keep his ill gotten gains. Bonus.
14 baduk May 23, 2009 at 3:26 pm: The Commies had to kill Rho because he may reveal many things about NK and China. Kim DaeJung, his master, had to send his boys to kill Rho off before he confesses what he knows.

If he just became a lawyer to help the poor, he could have been happy. But, he had ambition too big for him. Now, he is dead.
15 baduk May 23, 2009 at 3:36 pm: The great ending to the era of Korean history that should be forgotten.

Rho helped the enemy to build weapons to kill him, his family and South Koreans.

He carried out Kim DaeJung’s wishes to the max, providing money to KJI to build Nukes.

What a fuck-up!

People should spit on his grave!
16 Above Criticism May 23, 2009 at 3:40 pm: Crikey!
17 cacique May 23, 2009 at 3:54 pm: Prosecutors have announced the investigation into Roh will stop now.

http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/data/html_dir/2009/05/23/200905230054.asp

This sends a terrible message – that suicide is an out. The heat was getting too much for Roh, his wife, family and close friends, so by killing himself, prosecutors turn off the heat on his family and accomplices. This is not justice. The prosecution should continue until all those guilty are charged and tried.

Netizens are commenting that the prosecution pursued him too strongly and humiliated him. Gee, do you think maybe the Roh’s should have thought of that before his wife took the 6 mil? Nauseating. Try them all, I say. Don’t stop. Killing one’s self should not be a way of saving the honor of guilty accomplices.
18 Maekchu May 23, 2009 at 4:28 pm: I must admit….I do enjoy Baduk’s posts.
19 baduk May 23, 2009 at 4:37 pm: Only one bodyguard? Give me break.

He may have pushed Rho, or look the other way while Commies kill one of their dolls. Korean Commies love to kill.

Kim Dae jung may have sent the assasins. This is not the first time. Key witnesses agaist Kim have killed theselves. We can include Rho in that list.
20 tbonetylr May 23, 2009 at 5:15 pm: I’m not going to pretend to feel sorrow.
21 SomeguyinKorea May 24, 2009 at 12:46 am: “Only one bodyguard? Give me break.”

I’m guessing there were symptoms that he was suffering from depression. He shouldn’t have even been permitted to go any where near a cliff.

If only voters would realize that they need to stop electing the same old faces, regardless of political affiliation.
22 SomeguyinKorea May 24, 2009 at 12:58 am: colontos,

Unfortunately, all Korean politicians are frustrating…and a great deal of them are corrupt, too.

I hope his death shakes the political establishment from left to right.
23 Nix May 24, 2009 at 2:32 am
24 Nix May 24, 2009 at 2:34 am: Woops, failed at my html

I’ll just leave this here
25 WangKon936 May 24, 2009 at 4:14 am: # 7,

We don’t talk about Korean club because every explanation is interpreted through the lens of Western cultural superiority. So, every explanation is twisted into negative criticism by default. Thus, what’s the point of talking about it? The judgment’s already been made.
26 SomeguyinKorea May 24, 2009 at 9:32 am: #25,

Whatever.

#7,

In reality, there is much discussion in private…Unfortunately, you’d never know it because the media is controlled by the same corporations responsible for the sad state of affairs. Where’s the political satire? Where are the news stories about the environmental pollution, both domestic and Chinese in origin? Why is the Butcher of Kwangju walking the streets (or rather, being chauffeured around in a limousine when he’s supposedly broker)?
27 SomeguyinKorea May 24, 2009 at 10:50 am: So,

Is this the beginning of the end of crony capitalism in South Korea?
28 Linkd May 24, 2009 at 11:08 am: No.

You say the man was depressed. One cause was likely that he found that, as President, he wasn’t in charge – crony capitalism was, still is, and ever shall be, for Korea evermore.
29 Linkd May 24, 2009 at 11:12 am: …with a heavy state subsidy, of course.
30 Linkd May 24, 2009 at 6:52 pm: Willem Buiter, Financial Times, penning a rare non-economics-related article (and yes, he’s a US citizen).

The spinelessness and moral cowardice of the Obama administration know no bounds. The Bush-Cheney team ordered the torture and abuse of prisoners in Guantánamo Bay Naval Base and assorted other locations abroad – offshore detention without trial as well as torture by US officials or persons acting under their instructions being permitted by Article VIII of the United States Constitution, as confirmed in the XXVIIIth Amendment to the US Constitution.

Candidate Obama declares he abhors torture and deplores what went on in Gitmo and in secret detention centres around the world, but President Obama decides that the Camp may have to remain open for another year, as he doesn’t seem to know what to do with the prisoners. The right thing to do would have been to send a plane to Guantánamo Bay Naval Base on the day of his inauguration, to move all the prisoners to the USA.

President Obama then also decides not to prosecute those who committed the crimes of torture or abuse of prisoners or were responsible for these crimes. The president’s excuse was was that he sought to turn the page on “a dark and painful chapter”. It was a “time for reflection, not for retribution”, he said….

He is quite wrong. Reflection complements the law. It is not a substitute for it. Those who can be charged with these offenses should be tried and, if found guilty, punished according to the law. If among the guilty parties are CIA agents and former vice-president Dick Cheney, then so be it. If you cannot do the time, you should not do the crime….

The right and legal thing to do would be to take all the prisoners to the US, charge those who can be charged and release those who cannot be charged. Those who can be sent back to their countries of origin without endangering their safety can be sent back. The rest should be allowed to stay in the US (the principle in question is: ‘you break it, you own it’). Those charged then should be tried in a proper US court, not one of the kangaroo quasi-military tribunals created by Bush and Cheney. If convicted, they should serve their time, or pay with their lives, as the case may be. If acquitted they should be released….”

[and then he really gets going:]

“September 11, 2001 is more than seven and a half years in the past, but the US polity and public appear no less traumatised by it today than they were in the immediate aftermath of the outrages. A very primal mood of insecurity and fear continues to afflict most of the nation and its politicians.

Fear is a poor guide to policy. It caused the US to launch an unnecessary second war against Iraq and it led its leaders to compromise the most important principles on which the country was founded. The fear-induced response of the US authorities to the murderous outrages perpetrated by Al-Queda has turned out to be a much more serious threat to what is best about the US than Al-Queda itself. Bush, Cheney and now also Obama and Reid represent a greater threat to my liberty and fundamental rights as a citizen and a human being than Osama bin Laden and his mindless murderers.
31 Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog) May 24, 2009 at 7:13 pm: I’ve been following CNN International’s reporting on the Iranian Presidential elections, and reportage in print sources over the past few years. It seems that younger Iranians are ready for change and engagement with the United States and the rest of the world. The demographics are not running in the mullahs’ favor — what happens in the case that Iran elects a real reformer, one who is ready to make peace with Israel and the Great Satan?
32 Darth Babaganoosh May 24, 2009 at 7:17 pm: I’m not going to pretend to feel sorrow.

No one asks anyone to feel sorrow in the death of someone they either didn’t like or didn’t respect. However, neither should one be dancing in the streets doing a jig singing “Ding Dong the Witch is Dead”. Show a little decorum. Seeing so many people on the blogosphere seeming to revel in the guy’s death is pretty sickening.
33 Linkd May 24, 2009 at 7:24 pm: California illustrates the problem of a debt-financed asset bubble:

Facing a minimum $15 billion budget shortfall, voters rejected a series of ballot items that would’ve closed the state’s crisis-level deficit through tax hikes and spending cuts (it’s the tax hikes that were the real no go)…

So now the onus is back on the legislature and the Governor to close the deficit, which stands at $21 billion. It’s going to be brutal. The only real areas to get those kind of savings are in core services like education, prisons, health. You know, the big things.

Of course, California’s a state, not a country, and so faces rather different constraints. Still, when I look around Seoul, I see examples everywhere of how things are supposed to work, namely, the government saves money during boom times, knowing that busts will come as they always do. Then, when recessions hit and the private sector stops spending money, the government starts spending on new roads, riverside parks, sewer and subway lines, etc. And the government can do this because it’s got cash in the bank.

If, on the other hand, your governments went into huge debt during the bubble, then they’re in even bigger trouble during the bust. A bust is no time for a government to cut spending. In fact, it’s downright irresponsible (so, I believe, is heavy government borrowing and spending during a boom).

But, aha! Cali may be a state, but it’s still a state in the United States, and therefore it’s not totally without options (same link):

…The only real areas to get those kind of savings are in core services like education, prisons, health. You know, the big things.

Any affected group will cry bloody murder, no matter what’s done. There’s been some chatter that perhaps the negotiations could be easy, since the government has few options. We doubt it, though. The state would rather play chicken with Washington, DC and get its bailout*, rather than make cuts in education and prison spending. In fact, it might just rather default.

*Meaning, just let the federal government go further into debt on California’s behalf.
34 Linkd May 24, 2009 at 7:25 pm: B Carr: Then Obama will finally get a chance to look good.
35 SomeguyinKorea May 25, 2009 at 12:23 am: Notice something odd? Someone failed…and I’m not talking about the Korean scientists.

http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/data/html_dir/2009/05/19/200905190056.asp

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/05/18/south.korea.flu.vaccine/

http://macondaily.com/news.asp?id=24567
36 KrZ May 25, 2009 at 3:23 am: Citizen Spies Lift North Korea’s Veil;
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124295017403345489.html
37 Sonagi May 25, 2009 at 4:10 am: I blogged about that WSJ story a few days ago. Sorry you missed it. BTW, did you hear that ex-president Roh committed suicide?
38 KrZ May 25, 2009 at 4:24 am: They see me trollin’, they hatin’, moderatin’ and tryin’ ta catch me postin’ dirtay~~
39 gbevers May 25, 2009 at 8:55 am: Is there a reason no photos have been posted with the posts on Roh Moo-hyun’s death? The posts look pretty bare and matter-of-fact.
40 dogbertt May 25, 2009 at 10:14 am: The population of California has grown exponentially over the past few decades. As a state, California cannot control its population growth.

Therefore, it is only right that the federal government assist when overpopulation places undue demands on state funds.
41 gbevers May 25, 2009 at 11:45 am: Dogbertt (#40) wrote:

The population of California has grown exponentially over the past few decades. As a state, California cannot control its population growth.

Therefore, it is only right that the federal government assist when overpopulation places undue demands on state funds.

More people should mean more state taxes, so the real reason California is broke is that the state has failed to control its spending. California exemplifies the fact that you cannot give handouts to every Tom, Dick, and Harry–the way California does–without sufferring consequences. Why should the taxpayers in other states have to pay for the fiscal irresponsibility of Californians?

Liberals love to spend money they don’t have, and California is a liberal state. That is why California is in trouble.
42 WeikuBoy May 25, 2009 at 2:30 pm: “Liberals love to spend money they don’t have, and California is a liberal state. That is why California is in trouble.” — Wingnut, 2nd Class

Sadly, no.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html
Red states and their god-fearing gun-loving patriotic residents, who take more in federal expenditures than they contribute in taxes, are the true Welfare Queens of America, year in and year out.
43 gbevers May 25, 2009 at 4:16 pm: WeikuBoy (#42),

Here is the problem:

“CALIFORNIA’S BROKEN WELFARE SYSTEM”
44 WeikuBoy May 25, 2009 at 10:36 pm: Wingnut diatribes against giving Our Money to Poor People carry even less weight than usual when filled with unsourced factual assertions. I mean, seriously, your link couldn’t even be bothered to cite a partisan report from some wingnut-welfare think-tank? That’s lazy.

Them again, conservatives and numbers – real numbers – have never worked well together. And as far as taking wingnut arguments on faith, sorry. Your side ran out of credibility about the time Dick “Cakewalk” Cheney was torturing kidnap victims in the hope of inventing a relationship between Saddam and al-Qayeedah, and Junior Bush was pretending to look under his podium for non-existent WMD’s. (If not sooner.)

By the way, did California ever get back the billions stolen from it by Junior Bush’s BFF Kenny Boy Lay?
45 dogbertt May 25, 2009 at 11:59 pm: More people should mean more state taxes

Right, Gerry, all those illegal immigrants are paying state income tax.

Tighten your aluminum foil helmet.
46 dogbertt May 25, 2009 at 11:59 pm: And California, despite what some may think, is not a liberal state.
47 Nix May 26, 2009 at 12:20 am: Hey Wiekuboy, you should say “wingnut” a few more times.

It makes you cool and edgy.
48 ✿⊹⊱⋛☃⋚⊰⊹✿ May 26, 2009 at 2:09 am: John Roberts, Chief Justice of the United States, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_G._Roberts

He said that his fathe worked in Korea and he was born while his father was in Korea. Hmm, what happened to the family?
49 Sonagi May 26, 2009 at 2:15 am: He said that his fathe worked in Korea and he was born while his father was in Korea. Hmm, what happened to the family?

Hmmm, I guess Chief Justice Roberts was conceived while his father was in the US. I guess that you probably didn’t have any sex education classes in school, but I’m surprised no one’s clued you in about how babies are made.
50 ✿⊹⊱⋛☃⋚⊰⊹✿ May 26, 2009 at 2:20 am: No. I just wanted to make up a romance story.
51 WangKon936 May 26, 2009 at 7:43 am: # 26,

Well, I just tried answering the question…
52 WangKon936 May 26, 2009 at 7:51 am: Wow. Even in the early 60′s/late 50′s Koreans can direct and shoot interesting movies with a ton of shock value.

Full restored digitally is a 1960 Korean movie called Housewife. It dealt with some of the issues affecting post Korean War Korea such as Westernization, urbanization and, ahem, women entering the workforce.

The Twitch review here: http://twitchfilm.net/site/view/13th-piff-kim-ki-youngs-the-housemaid-remastered-1960/

The movie here: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/2039

It’s interesting listening to how all the people talk in the movie. It sounds like North Koreans sometimes. Could it be that the North Koreans just talk like all Koreans did in 50′s/60′s?
53 WangKon936 May 26, 2009 at 7:51 am: Sorry. Housemaid, not Housewife.
54 WeikuBoy May 26, 2009 at 10:48 am: “Hey Wiekuboy, you should say “wingnut” a few more times. It makes you cool and edgy.

Now we have style nazis? I submit that in America “wingnut” has long since passed from “cool and edgy” to a useful and ordinary noun. Salon (salon.com) even has a weekly column called “Ask A Wingnut” where an anonymous Bush-Cheney official purports to respond to those questions that most perplex us libtards. It’s not quite synonymous with either “conservative” or “republican” and is more concise (and I suggest more accurate) than “right-winger”.
55 Nix May 27, 2009 at 3:55 am: It’s as useful and obnoxious as sheeple and moonbats.

Seriously, when you use it, you are merely telling other people not to take your argument seriously because you are simply labeling a group of people so that you can objectify and dismiss them. Basically, you label yourself as an extremist as well, and people are tired of the bullshit on both sides.
56 cmm May 28, 2009 at 3:37 pm: anyone know any good websites of 고사성어 used in Korean with explanations (in English)?

thanks in advance…
57 ✿⊹⊱⋛☃⋚⊰⊹✿ May 28, 2009 at 11:54 pm: Uhhh, English teachers and woegookins, how do you think about this, http://outfield.egloos.com/4151404 ?
58 ✿⊹⊱⋛☃⋚⊰⊹✿ May 29, 2009 at 12:27 am: @cmm,
I think it’s more feasible to find a chinese-educating site and then get the value of Korean pronunciation from the chinese letters
I find a good Chinese site, http://www.myechinese.org/Chinese/Idiom_Detail.aspx?id=41

고사성어s are to the left on the page. You can browse them there and get the Korean pronunciation here, http://cndic.naver.com . Good luck.
59 WeikuBoy May 29, 2009 at 12:42 am: “[W]hen you use [wingnut], you are merely telling other people not to take your argument seriously because you are simply labeling a group of people so that you can objectify and dismiss them. Basically, you label yourself as an extremist as well, and people are tired of the bullshit on both sides.”

You are under the mistaken impression that I am arguing with gbevers, a person who came on this site and criticized “liberals” as the cause of all evil in this world. I assure you, I am not. I AM instead objectifying and dismissing him, because at this point in history Americans, at long last, are indeed tired of fifteen years of GOP extremist b.s. In the civilized nations of the world, extreme right-wingers are ridiculed as the laughing-stocks they are. In the U.S., because of our flawed electoral college voting system, the pride and prejudices of rural red state single-issue anti-tax and anti-abortion and gun nut voters must be a serious concern of any candidate for president. Yet Obama won. Decisively. So suck it, gbevers, and acoulter, and rlimbaugh, and ngingrich. For the moment, at least, you don’t matter.
60 DLBarch May 29, 2009 at 2:19 am: It should also be noted that a lot of frustrated and disillusioned conservatives, including a lot of Obamacons, use “wingnut” to describe those who have dragged the Republican Party and the conservative movement so far right that its once proud legacy and traditions are now the domain of the feable-minded, the paranoid, and the insane. There is simply very little space for the gentleman moderate conservative of old in today’s GOP, as an afternoon spent at any CPAC event over the last few years will readily testify to.

DLB
61 wjk, 검은 머리 외국인 May 29, 2009 at 10:28 pm: as a Koreano male, I think my rich cultural experience qualifies me over the standard white dude in appointment as President Obama’s choice for Job X.

Surely, my rich Koreano heritage gives me a more qualified viewpoint in matters over the standard white dude.

I promise to apply my personal biases regarding Christianity, economics, and even East Asian thought in my job place, so that my opinion will have a lot more leverage in a society which is dominated by white Americans.

Look at me !
Look at me~

I have taken on English as a 2nd language and somehow not ended up teaching English in Korea for a career.

Somehow I managed to go to a top ranked public university, graduated from medical school and will become a resident physician in a matter of days.

Surely, surely, surely, an ethnic Korean doctor is a better doctor than a white American doctor, just because it is so…

if you even have a brain between your shoulders, you should be able to see what I think of Sotomayor and Obama.
62 wjk, 검은 머리 외국인 May 29, 2009 at 10:32 pm: and let’s not inquire further into my credentials, past actions, etc.

Simply because I am the first ever male Koreano hombre to be appointed for this Presidentially appointed post,

I plead that the US Senate appoint me asap.
To delay would be racist.