I’m at a loss for words — police say embattled former President Roh Moo-hyun died this morning after falling from a hillside as he was hiking this morning.
Police are currently investigating whether it was an accident or a suicide. I’m not going to jump to conclusions, even though some of the news reports I’m hearing seem to be.
UPDATE: Former Cheong Wa Dae chief of staff Moon Jae-in said Roh left behind a simple note for his family, indicating a suicide.
Yonhap is reporting the same, that a close aid — my guess, probably Moon — told them he left behind a note, and this would suggest the former president had killed himself. The aide added that he’d heard Roh was exhausted from being investigated by prosecutors.
UPDATE: Let me issue a brief eulogy.
No, I didn’t like the man, either as a president or an ex-president, and as for the trouble he found himself in recently, well, he had mostly himself to blame — if you spend five years trumpeting your moral superiority over the opposition and then try to sink their presidential candidate with an independent probe into a financial scam right before the election, you’d better be sure you don’t have any ethical skeletons in your own closet.
That said, I do believe the man was treated unfairly in some quarters of the media and political establishment while he was president. Granted, there were plenty of legitimate reasons — many of them policy-related — to give the guy a hard time, but one got the strong suspicion that the attacks on the President Roh were not necessarily based on what he did or how he did it, but rather on who he was. He was from outside the establishment (granted, he seems to have learned eventually), a self-taught lawyer and populist. And because of this, he was never really given a chance.
Although then again, even if he’d been afforded one, I doubt he’d have done anything with it other than piss it away, like he did with his post-impeachment wave of support.
For all of Roh’s faults, though, he must be given credit for this — he was the first Korean president who actually acted like the head of state of a democracy and not an elected dictator. He practiced a presidency with limits, and for this, he deserves the nation’s gratitude. And for all the fear mongering, the Korean economy grew pretty healthily under Roh, he managed to get the FTA signed, and the Korea-US alliance didn’t completely collapse under his watch. He wasn’t a complete disaster, and I hope people remember that.
At OneFreeKorea, Joshua has his own thoughts on Roh’s death.
UPDATE: Roh’s suicide note has been released:
The note Roh left reads, “Many people have been suffering too much because of me. The sufferings that will come are also too enormous. I cannot do anything due to bad heath. I cannot read nor write. Life and death are just one piece of the nature, aren’t they?”
Roh also said: “Don’t be sorry. Don’t blame anyone. It’s all destiny. Please cremate my body and leave just a small tombstone near my home.”
His aides found the note saved in a file in his computer. The note indicates his suicide was premeditated.
Roh apparently asked his bodyguard for a smoke right before he jumped.
Prosecutors, meanwhile, have declared an end to their investigation of Roh…which one suspects might have been the point of the suicide.
I don’t want to predict any fallout — it’s too early to tell, of course. Nevertheless, you already have debate about the manner in which the prosecutors investigated Roh, and more worrying, the ever-classy Democratic Party saying in a statement — read with tears, reportedly — that the people and history knew who and what brought about the tragic end of a former president. Party officials also complained about the prosecutors, who they accused of treating Roh without the proper respect due a former president and leaking information about the investigation. With the Democratic Labor Party and New Progressive Party also castigating the prosecutors’ investigation, this could get ugly, especially since LMB and Co. have shown only slightly less PR finesse than the Khmer Rouge.
My guess, though, is that among the names the Democratic Party won’t bring up is Nam Sang-guk.
{ 108 comments… read them below or add one }
wow!!
I’d prefer to think of it as an accident, but given the pattern of suicide among Koreans who’ve lost face . . . I have to wonder.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
definitely a strange coincidence considering the circumstances and all the information that has come out lately but sad nonetheless
Not sure what the weather’s like near Busan, but in Seoul, it was raining this morning, and Roh was a pretty big hiker, so this could very well have been just a tragic accident. We’ll find out soon enough, I guess.
probably a suicide. korean conservatives basically killed him. they must be celebrating now with gangnam room cafe girls.
rip….
I doubt that there’ll be much celebration among conservatives, especially if it is suicide, which will be taken by Koreans as a collective loss of face.
But suicide or accident, this is sad to hear.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
For now, I’m not going to speak ill of the dead, although more comments like #5, and I may not be able to hold my tongue.
#5: Yes, it’s clearly the conservatives’ fault he took houses in the U.S. as bribe payments. Can you say “asshat?” I knew you could.
oh please~
if they attacked him while in office, i would understand. that’s what politicians do. but he was out of office and was retired in si-gol. korean politicians are so dirty and nasty.
Anyway, not since Hitler has a country’s leader or former leader committed suicide.
My wife is currently listening to the televised reports and says that a suicide note has been found. We’ll hear more soon enough.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
OK now it’s the conservatives’ fault… Not Roh’s at all for being a corrupt scum and reform was the foundation of his campaign along with anti-americanism.
It would seem he would have had secret service with him right? There had to be witnesses but if no one saw what happened it will just be speculation as to accident or suicide.
Maybe that’s how he wanted it.
Sad news, even though he was a terrible president.
By the way, I was surprised to hear Korean news report that Roh Moo-hyun was Korea’s sixteenth president. It may be common knowledge, but I did not know it. I assume that was one of the things he claimed to have in common with Abraham Lincoln, even though Korea and the US seem to calculate that number differently. Apparently, Korea counts the terms in office while the US counts the people who fill the office.
Rhee Syngman: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th
Yun Bo-seon: 5th
Pak Cheong-hee: 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th
Choi Gyu-ha: 10th
Chun Doo-hwan: 11th, 12th
Roh Tae-woo: 13th
Kim Yeong-sam: 14th
Kim Dae-jung: 15th
Roh Moo-hyun: 16th
Lee Myeong-bak: 17th
There will be time to discuss all of the ramifications of this incident later, but the first thought that came to my mind — whether accident or suicide — is how does a former president go ANYWHERE without detail of at least two or three bodyguards?
DLB
Two posts about the same subject. You assholes! That’s why Roh killed himself! God Bless Shawner!
Assholes
hahahaha
But suicide or accident, this is sad to hear.
Jeffery Hodges
Stop signing your posts, asshole!
H&T:
Take 2 ibuprofen, drink a litre of water, go back to bed, get up in 2+ hours and start again. The sun may be out by then.
@McNut:
YTN is reporting that bodyguards were with him at the time, and that one of them made the emergency call.
H&T, I have to sign “Jeffery Hodges,” or everybody’d think I’m named “jefferyhodges.”
As for the three asterisks (which you neglected to mention) . . . they’re meant to be elliptical.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
The family lawyer has verified that ex-Pres Roh left a suicide note:
http://bit.ly/13a1Ix
I didn’t like Roh, and was never able to forgive him for exploiting the deaths of two girls for his personal gain. That said, it is a shame and I feel for his family and friends, as well as all Koreans. Also, with his passing, there are questions that may never be answered.
He offed himself. I shed no tears for him as suicide is the coward’s way out.
He didn’t have the balls to face the music and admit that he was just as corrupt as all the other politicians.
He was a hypocrite, a liar, and an idiot!
The conservatives will not be “celebrating” as there is nothing to gain from his death. It’s a loss because he will not be held accountable for his lies.
The lefties are already starting to blame the prosecutors and LMB saying it’s their fault for coming down on Roh. Oh, boo-hoo! He was a liar and he took the coward’s way out.
Only he chose to off himself. He is to blame!
Shifting of blame and dodging responsibility- isn’t that exactly what Roh used to claim he was against?
The lefty Nork stooges will be using this to attack LMB once again. Get ready!
I didn’t like Roh, and was never able to forgive him for exploiting the deaths of two girls for his personal gain.
hahahaha
yeah, I was never able to forgive Roh!
Odd that he would choose such a messy, rather undignified method of death if it is indeed a premeditated suicide. For a former president, it seems hard to believe he’d want his body discovered in such a position with his head split open, strange also when he might have considered how foolish he’d look if he survived the fall (as in fact he almost did, dying hours later in the hospital.) Pills or a noose somewhere in a private room would have been a more becoming end in his position. Therefore I smell something foul adrift, and would not rule out murder. The public version of events is seldom what really happened.
If Roh ODed on pills or hanged himself, his wife or some other close family member might discover his body. I, too, thought about the possibility of him being pushed but think that would have been very risky as there were undoubtedly other hikers in the area. Absent any evidence, I wouldn’t speculate about foul play.
Mr. Hardy (16),
I think it is good that Jeffery signs his name because some might misread his ID as Jeff Eryhodges. Anyway, at least, he does not refer to themself by including his pet name for a body part.
To others,
I admit I do not understand the psychology of suicide, but it seems like such a cowardly, irresponsible act, especially in Roh Moo-hyun’s case. If Roh did commit suicide, then it suggests he was psychologically unstable, which makes me think that we were lucky that worse things did not happen during his presidency.
People take a big chance when they elect a president, especially when they allow their emotions to choose for them.
This topic has the potential to get real messy, but it’s important to recall that for a lot of people, and in a lot of cultures, suicide is an honorable end. It is the ultimate way to take full and complete responsibility.
DLB
There’s Roh turning back now.
Perhaps. Or it is just a cowardly way to avoid responsibility and accountability.
As for the three asterisks (which you neglected to mention) . . . they’re meant to be elliptical.
stop signing your name to every post you make
“It is the ultimate way to take full and complete responsibility.”
Riiiight. What a load of bullshit.
(Not what you said, but that people try to spin it like that.)
There may be some truth in that, but Roh did not take “full and complete” responsibility for any crimes before killing himself, which suggests he killed himself to avoid doing that. He has left his wife and children to face alone the humiliation of any crimes and lies he committed.
H&T has stopped laughing and is now using the imperative shorn bald of any attempt at humor. Ironically, I am all the more amused.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
How predictable.
CNN is reporting suicide.
Holy shit. This could bring down the Lee government. Mark my words. We will see massive protests and riots in the coming days.
Not to mention candlelight vigils. The candle manufacturers are rejoicing right now.
Innocent people do not commit suicide and with this guy self-proclaiming himself another Abraham Lincoln, but ultimately turning out to be just another rung on the ex-presidential corruption ladder for the Koreans to look at as their role models, it’s a shame.
You would think that looking back at the previous 5 presidents and where they ended up, that one day there will be one of them who post-administration isn’t exposed as a complete scoundrel.
“Benicio74 May 23, 2009 at 11:39 am
He was a hypocrite, a liar, and an idiot!”
So the former President deserved to die because he was allegedly a hypocrite and a liar? If you apply that logic, everyone, not just politicians, “deserves to die”.
As far as greedy, undeserving takers go, I’d agree with that.
I don’t think this bring down the Lee government, but I’m pretty sure it will become more fodder for anti-government and opposition forces, especially with June around the corner. Look out for the “memorial ceremonies” to come.
#38- I never said he deserved to die. I certainly DON’T believe that!
I said he does not deserve my sympathy. He was a liar & a hypocrite and he took the coward’s way out instead of owning up to what he did.
I would much rather him not be dead, but be accountable for what he has done and the way he has lied.
Thus, it will never be because he and he alone chose to kill himself.
No one is to blame but him.
PS- I take no joy in his death. This is just not good all around!
It will definitely be a trouble for the current administration, especially since there are so many apparent holes to the story. Method of suicide seems strange, not only in the rather gruesome manner (as pointed out above), but that bodyguards were present at the time of the suicide. In addition, if Roh was so emotionally and ethically distraught to the point that he killed himself, he wouldn’t have left such a brief suicide note (if he felt so much guilt/sorrow).
Of course, these are all very minor suspicions and questions, but I think they’re more than enough materials when it comes to the internet discussion/rumor-mongering. I don’t think it’ll topple Lee’s administration, but if they don’t handle this sensitively and respectfully (in regards to the dead) they will have a shitstorm… actually, there probably will be a shitstorm in either case. Guys who are in Seoul, get ready to taste some stray tear gas.
On a separate note, I think this goes to show that Roh is, for what it’s worth, a decent man if not the most apt president. I realize that we who are immersed in the western thoughts see suicide as cowardly, but at least in Roh’s mind, you cannot deny that suicide is the ultimate gesture of repentance. In other words, we cannot evaluate Roh’s thought process behind the suicide with our own standard when we want to figure out what motivated him to do so and how he was motivated. In Roh’s mind, he was taking what was most honorable option left. And I think that makes him at least a decent man.
Oh dear… my extremely leftist uncle who lives in Seoul is foaming in his mouth.
Robert, your eulogy was quite fair minded and respectful. My hat’s off to you for not being above pettiness.
This is a slippery slope. Korea will be cast headlong into an abyss. The precipitous nature of the situation cannot be overlooked. I suppose he was on the incline due to the gravity of the charges against him. His support was plummeting. He was between a rock and a hard place. I would have moved mountains for him, but he seemed determined to take the path less travelled. I suppose he had one more mountain to climb along the rocky road of life. As we approach the summit of life, we must remember what befell others.
Out on limb: I think there will be no violent demonstrations, no tumult at all, so long as LMB doesn’t open his big mouth and start criticizing Roh. A fairly small and quiet vigil at the most (by Korean standards, that is. Say, just City Hall plaza itself, not spilling out as far as Kyobo B/D or Namdaemun, and no more than the odd scuffle at the periphery). I don’t think many people are really going to care.
So, we’ll see.
People saying killing yourself is honorable and decent.
Is it honorable to leave your family to deal with your BS.
Is it honorable to not face the consequences of your own actions.
No wonder our younger generations a so f’ing warped and have no morals.
Linkd, you beat me to the punch.
When NMH was impeached it was on a Friday, and I predicted that people would talk about it over the weekend and the typically sheeplike Korean public opinion would reach a concensus and drift to one side or the other. Sure enough, by Monday, as I had predicted the lemmings were of like mind. Public opinion came to the side of this same man whose popularity had been plunging just prior.
In this case, I believe that the sense of shame and extenuating circumstances surrounding this event will generally mute public outcry. The conservatives will soft peddle for fear of being targeted, and the balgangis will be chastened by the fact that Roh’s suicide was an apparent admission of guilt.
I believe this will be viewed as something shameful by both sides and will not lead to huge vehement, violent demonstrations but to muted quiet reflection. Not that there won’t be some extremist rhetoric and misbehavior – this is after all Korea – but it should not prove the undoing of the current administration either.
Linkd (#46),
“No violent demonstrations”? Are you kidding?
Roh Moo-hyun will most likely be made into a martyr by Korea’s leftists and the many Koreans who lean left. I expect to see a candle-light vigil that surpasses any we have seen so far. This is Korea, so violent demonstrations are almost guaranteed.
gbevers, remember that the schoolgirls accident and beef demonstrations were turned into chaos by special interest groups with a deliberate agenda to distort. You may be right, and this may happen again. On the other hand a general weariness with these kind of politics could also set in and lead both sides to react with a bit more sensitivity. Therefore, even if the usual suspects attempt to foment chaos again, the public may not be in the mood to bite.
Either scenario may prevail. Wait until Monday. Like the impeachment, this happened at the beginning of the weekend, and by Monday, the public concensus should be in place.
Mizar5 (#50),
I think what you are really trying to say is that this incident did not involve the US– unless Korea’s leftists can convince Koreans that there was a US agent on that mountain who pushed Roh and then wrote the suicide note–so there is not the nearly the 100 percent certainty of demontrations that US-involvement would mean. However, a former president with leftist leanings has died while under investigation by a conservative administration. I think that is more than enough for leftists to make a martyr out of him, and Koreans love martyrs.
Rho was a stupid jerk. He protected the NK dictator, as if he was a brother. Send money and aid. KJI used the money to build nuclear bombs.
Rho, then, said KJI had a right to develop Nukes. It is a form of self-defense, he applauded.
What a stupid non-sense! The enemy develops weapons and he congratulates. Which country is he the president of?
A fuck-up, that is all he was.
Just look at what he did today.
What a fuck-up. He needed psychiatric care.
Assuming it was a suicide, I think it’s safe to say that honor and repentance had nothing to do with it. Likewise, cowardice, while closer, still is not an accurate description. In my mind, the suicide is the ultimate “f-you,” the ultimate game-changing countermove, played to its fatal perfection by the master tactician. For a true fighter and competitor like him, this was the only card left that would instantly turn a sure loss into a victory. With the suicide, (1) he is forever enshrined as a martyr amongst his supporters, (2) he instantly revives and strenthens his supporters, thereby screwing those that attacked him (you know LMB is cursing in his sleep), and (3) he prevents any further investigations into his wrongdoings, which would most probably include those more serious than the mere taking of bribes. For any conspiracy theorist, of course, the focus should be on point (3). Maybe he was afraid something irreversibly destructive to his reputation, something that would set him apart from the run-of-the-mill former-president-scoundrels of Korea, would be revealed. And any conspiracy theory would not be complete without a NK connection (Jeong Mong Hun, anyone?)
In any case, I agree with Robert almost word-for-word on his take of Roh and his legacy. I also think the very fact that he was willing to take his own life for a cause (whether it be of protecting those around him or his own legacy, or ANY other cause), places him at a higher level of integrity than the vast majority of “leaders” Korea has seen in its modern history.
Of course, the primary cause was probably depression. But that’s not the whole story, and it’s certainly not interesting enough.
“stop signing your name to every post you make”
That incudes you too DLB
Committing suicide for the sake of martyrdom may be strategic, but as it’s also the last strategy that individual will ever employ, it’s not really so great a move for that person as much it might be for everyone else involved. Frankly, it makes me all the more suspicious about the man, and what else he may have done that remains as yet undisclosed to the public, and I hope the investigation continues, so that any potential beneficiaries of his corruption are brought to the light. There is, I’d aver, more that has yet to be uncovered.
“It is the ultimate way to take full and complete responsibility.”
I would second gbevers on this, the Japanese would make a full and public apology, then commit suicide as the act of shame and contrition. This appears more to be not be able to face up to his guilt.
“Robert, your eulogy was quite fair minded and respectful. My hat’s off to you for not being above pettiness.”
Mizar make up your mind, is it fair minded and respectful or pettiness?
I cannot help but to compare the process of change in political leadership in South Korea with that in Taiwan, with the former ROK President Roh and Taiwan (ROC) form President Chen Shui-bian both recently under investigations for financial corruption. While both started out as victims of oppressive and undemocratic ruling parties, then rose to become leaders of a successful opposition until they achieved the presidency, they both had a lot of explaining to do once the disenchanted voted new versions of the old ruling parties back into power. The backlash has started and the massing of illicit personal fortunes is not going to be overlooked, suicide or not. (Chen tried a hunger strike in prison, but this moved his family to begin cooperating with authorities). I am uneasy with the idea that investigations into Roh’s assets may be ending. One sure hope LMB is following a different course. One difference is that China hates Chen, but the North used Roh to their advantage. Yet their response (see KCNA on Monday at the earliest) should still be predictable diatribe.
I was in an art gallery when someone called me to tell me about this. The news caught me so off guard that I had to sit down in the middle of the floor. I will include him and his family in my prayers.
The man allowed bad things to happen during his tenure (Burma/China arms-technology-transfer for one) but he should have persevered. I can now only wonder at the effect upon the political future this event will have in Korea.
As one editor at the JoongAng Ilbo pointed out several months ago, this unprofessional habit of the season’s ascendant political party hosting a witch hunt — out of spite — must be tempered with a better sense of will benefit society, but then hindsight is usually sharper than foresight!
As it is, the GNP has looking very ugly and, frankly, I don’t see many average Koreans liking what they see in the future either.
I’m with Robert and others on RMH’s extremely poor record, character and legacy — he never shouldda been President here at all — but for human decency’s sake, may he now R.I.P.
I don’t find his chosen method strange or improbable as some above do — his bodyguards (and family-members?) were probably on alert against his depressed behavior, and almost other way he might’ve tried it had a high chance of being stopped in-progress. A relaxed ordinary early-morning mountain-hike… his guards were probably off-guard.
I vote for Monday off, a National Day of Mourning!!! No school, Yippy Yippy Yay Yippy Yi Yo Yo!!!
I doubt Roh’s death will help S. Korea get the 2015 Universiade bid.
Things are moving a little too fast for my suspicious mind, so I can only imagine what Roh’s supporters are thinking.
Why was his suicide note and the details of his death made public so quickly? Why are earlier reports of the contents of his suicide note different from what is now being reported? Why didn’t the note include more personal messages to his wife and children or any of his close friends? Why is the Chosun Ilbo now reporting that the body is already on its way back to his hometown for supposed cremation? Are suicide investigations and autopsies always concluded so quickly in Korea, not to mention a suicide investigation and autopsy of a former president who may have had the potential to bring down others with him?
I have a bad feeling about the days ahead.
A suicide note “on a computer” according to Joongang Ilbo.
Suuuure it was.
Those factors do sound bad. But let’s wait until rumors can be sifted away from the facts, whatever they are.
No “candlelight vigils” memorials or “gatherings” at Seoul Plaza tonight….
http://bit.ly/bWdcW
Better Roh than, say, an arguably more corrupt Lee Hoi-chang.
Arguably… Are the degrees of corruption in any political party/system in any country really worth debating(snitting) over, except to recognize that it’s there and to not support it, no matter how much you (irrationally) hate “them”.
Well, if no one else will say it, I will: sorry, but despite as much sympathy as I think we all feel for the bereaved, it is inappropriate to forget all and begin to lionize the man beyond legitimacy. Let’s consider what Robert wrote in the post:
Really? Let’s take the first claim: that he was ‘the first Korean president who actually acted like the head of state of a democracy and not an elected dictator’. And what of Kim Dae-Jeong? Whatever description one might think of using with DJ, ‘dictator’ hardly seems to fit, no? I’m no fan of DJ, but nonetheless, I’d say that the model of presidency rather changed under his turn at helm, and not under his successor’s. Frankly, despite the rhetoric, I’m inspired more by heads of state who resist all temptation to publicly doubt their own abilities to govern, as NMH most notably did.
As to the second claim, that ‘for all the fear mongering, the Korean economy grew pretty healthily under Roh’, how could it have not? As a production-oriented economy whose trade great trading partners during the overheated economic period during which Noh served his presidency, Korea should have grown. What, for example, did he do regarding the real estate market except enact policies which served to inflate and overstimulate?
Finally, regarding the claim that ‘he managed to get the FTA signed, and the Korea-US alliance didn’t completely collapse under his watch’, is that not arguably the due to the efforts of the US? Clearly, if one party seems to have exemplified zeal in seeing a continuingly successful relationship, it is the Bush administration. They, after all, were willing to overlook the continued anti-US rhetoric from both Noh and his unification minister Chung Dong-young, in order to see the FTA through. I was always taught that the bigger man isn’t the one who taunts others, but is the one who doesn’t respond in kind and instead seeks to develop a relationship. Frankly, I wouldn’t give NMH points for inking an FTA with the Bush administration, particularly when it is arguably a managed-trade agreement with clear advantages to most Korean producers and consumers.
“Them” being those idiots of the other “party” that are obviously genetically inferior for not believing what you do.
Correction to #69:
‘As a production-oriented economy whose trade great trading partners were China and the US during the globally overheated economic period during which Noh served his presidency, Korea‘s economy should have grown.’
apologies to all…
DJ was old school — his political party was exactly that — HIS. He was the epitome of what was wrong with the Korean party system. It was DJ that launched tax audits of critical newspapers (as opposed to RMH, who tried to use the legislative process to enact media reform), and DJ was had to play with a GNP-dominated legislature. No, he was not a dictator, but then again, neither was Kim Young-sam. But like I said, they were old-school strong executive types. Sure, DJ was a better president than Roh, but that’s not saying much.
Yes, it should have grown. And it did. By 4-5% a year. Job done.
Roh DID send 3,000 Korean troops to Iraq, and bit the bullet with Kim Sun-il. And for all their rhetoric — which most of the time was just stupid rather than expressly anti-American — when it came to actually doing stuff, they were big softies. And as for the FTA, it takes two to tango, and for all the clear advantages to most Korean producers and consumers, many of Roh’s party members, former advisors and supporters hated it. So yes, he deserves points for signing it.
Roh Moo-hyun’s suicide has bothered me all day. Roh was not an evil man, and I do not think he was a bad man, so I feel very sad that he is dead. I am not really a religious man, but I was raised a Christian, so I worry about his soul and have even said a little prayer for him.
There have been a few cold-hearted or flippant comments made about Roh’s suicide on this thread, including, at least, one by me, but the more I think about his death, the more it bothers me. How tortured a man must be to plan and then commit suicide by jumping off a cliff, especially a man, who as a former president of Korea, would have been able to live a very comfortable life, regardless of any future criminal convictions.
I have never experienced the kind of depression that would cause me to want to take my life, so I have no right to judge those who have obviously experienced that kind of depression. Therefore, I take back what I said about suicide being a cowardly act. It may be cowardly, but I have no authority to make such a judgment.
I hope Roh Moo-hyun’s soul is at peace.
I would never characterize any suicide as cowardly, regardless of the reasons. Those who attempt suicide because they really want to end their lives realize the finality of the act and the likelihood of some physical pain. In hurling oneself off a cliff, there is a fair chance of survival with permanent injuries. Roh must have been in deep pain to used such a dramatic and risky method of ending his life.
to have used
Robert beat me to it at #72 in reply to gbnhj’s inquiry at #70 in regard to DJ’s democratic credentials.
And please: Don’t get me started on DJ. Not today.
And I also agree with Lady Sonagi at #74. In fact, against those who consider suicide “cowardly,” I don’t know anything more courageous than the ability to face (nay, the capacity to plunge into!) the unknown.
One more thing about DJ for now:
The sins of the self-righteous are always more egregious. This is why the revelation of Roh’s personal corruption was such a big deal: He was a politician who incessantly trumpeted his own matchless integrity. Likewise, the frequently un-democratic or illiberal conduct of DJ in office belied his life-long pretensions as a democrat or liberal.
I can see no reason to ascribe the growth of the Korean economy to Roh and his administration. Essentially, taking credit for increased economic growth in the midst of global economic increase is unsupported at best. I wouldn’t describe it as ‘job done’ so much as being ‘along for the ride’.
Still, since you’ve described his actions as ‘just stupid’, and that, ‘when it came to actually doing stuff, [he and his cronies] were big softies’ rather than effective politicians, then perhaps we agree more than disagree, after all.
Again, my sympathy is offered for those agrieved individuals who feel a personal loss in Roh’s passing.
How about saving our sympathy for those who deserve it, instead of those who may simply be at the top of our personal political worshipshitpile? How about the kid who had his eyes eaten? Wouldn’t it be a grand gesture if one of these heroes of the politicocriminal world would give some of their gazillions to people like them?
Roh was not an evil man
There are 6 million reasons to say that he was.
People who bring out tired Western cliches to the effect that President Roh’s suicide was “cowardly,” and “irresponsible” are simply wrong. Located in the tradition of the same family of cultures that produced hara-kiri, the former President’s suicide is the ultimate act of both bravery and responsibility.
Unfortunately, that doesn’t make it any less tragic.
Sincere apologies for the HTML mistake: the italics should stop at the end of the second last sentence.
I agree with Nathan. There is something poignant about Roh’s death, particularly when one recalls that most of Korea’s powerful — when faced with the prospect of an investigation by the Prosecutor’s Office — feign illness and head for the U.S. for “emergency” medical treatment. The relentless right-wing ad hominem attacks against Roh on this site so soon after his death are troubling.
If any good can come out of this, first should be reigning in the thugs at the Seoul Prosecutor’s Office, who are clearly out of control. Subjecting a former president — any former president — to 13 hour days of grilling questioning is outrageous. There are standards for this kind of investigation, and no civilized country should treat a former head of state this way.
DLB
Mizar is right about public opinion. This happened at the beginning of the weekend so the weekend is “decision time.” The fate of the ROK, for the next few months anyway, is right now being decided by 2 groups of people: the media and the netizens, and I fear that the latter group is the real power here. It all comes down to how they decide the spin it. The media will report their spin as the national zeitgeist, and all of Korea’s finger-in-the-wind politicians will pay close attention, and, come Monday morning, come out in favor of public opinion.
Will this blow over with some quiet reflection? Or will it be months of massive, violent protests that threaten to bring Lee down? That decision is being made, right now, by a few hundred thousands of Koreans with computers, many of whom have not even reached voting age. By Monday evening, at the latest, we’ll know.
#53,
Maybe, but we will never know for sure if that’s what he had on his mind . How history will interpret this will depend on whether his final act brings reforms.
(Regardless of whether this was a cunning plan or not, I still think that it’s depression that drove him to suicide.)
Sonagi (#74),
How would you describe a man who runs away from a heavy debt, leaving his family behind to deal with the debt collectors on their own? If the man were to kill himself, would it pay the debt or somehow relieve the suffering of his family?
Was Roh’s suicide contrition, sacrifice, escape, or something else?
In his suicide note, he talked about causing pain for people and about being a burden on them, so that implies some contrition and sacrifice, but it was vague and he did not confess to anything in particular. He talked about being unhealthy and not being able to do anything, including reading and writing, which implies he was looking for escape.
In his suicide note, he said that life and death were both a part of nature, which implies he did not fear death. If he did not fear death, then killing himself would not have required much courage. I guess the reason people refer to suicide as being cowardly is that people who commit suicide seem to fear living more than dying.
If contrition and sacrifice are the motivations for suicide, then it would probably be wrong to refer to it as cowardly. However, a suicide without contrition or sacrifice, would suggest it was done to escape some suffering or some fear of suffering.
Though it might be wrong to refer to suicide as cowardly, suicide without sacrifice or contrition is not a brave act.
“In his suicide note, he talked about causing pain for people and about being a burden on them, so that implies some contrition and sacrifice…”
No, that implies he was suffering from depression. Many people who suffer from depression view themselves as a burden.
“He talked about being unhealthy and not being able to do anything, including reading and writing, which implies he was looking for escape.”
It implies he was suffering from depression. People who suffer from depression obsess over dark thoughts, trying constantly to rationalize them. It’s the adrenaline, the fight or flee reflex. Depression is just as physically draining as it is emotionally so.
Nathan B #82, how can you talk about cliches and then amek a statment like that.
Seppuku, is a ritualised, traditionally witnessed form of honourable death. Throwing yourself off a cliff, particularly without any form of public contrition beforehand, hardly comes into the same category.
This is such a nothing story here in the States. It’s not even on the front pages of cnn.com or foxnews.com anymore. Weird. For me it’s a huge thing, and it obviously is in Korea… I just thought it would be a bit bigger over here. But of course I should know better than to expect anything from the US media.
email message from one of my translators (Korean female, age around 27):
#86
Yes, I agree depression was the primary cause. The more interesting question, however, is what drove him to such despair. It couldn’t have been the mere fact that he was being attacked from all sides. This is because he was a person who thrived under that kind of circumstances and who had made a career out of fighting as the underdog. So there must have been something more. Sure, it could be the fact that the allegations had a moral element to it, and that he had suddenly lost the moral high ground from which he incessantly and ruthlessly poached his adversaries. Being viewed in the same way as the very people he had chastised over his career would have been hard to bear. But I find this theory not entirely plausible because at $6mn, the allegations could not do serious damage to Roh’s moral reputation even if they were all proven to be true. $6mn is a paltry amount and we know it’s not even pocket change to Roh’s predecessors who amassed vast amounts in slush funds (with the exception of YS, maybe). And, as we know, Roh was a firm believer in the importance of the “degree” of crime–he’s the one who vowed to resign if his party’s illegal election money were more than 1/10th of that of Hannardang. He of all people could make the argument that he was still morally superior to those that had embezzeled and expropriated 100 or 1000 times more than $6mn, especially since the bribes were yet to be proven and had been attributed to his family and not himself. In short, there were plenty of ways to fight the existing allegations, and he would still be in pretty good shape even if he were convicted.
To me, one logical conclusion is that his particularly acute despair stemmed from the fact that he foresaw the revelation of something more than the then-current allegations. Perhaps the prosecution was closing in on him with respect to much more insidious crimes that could not be simply denied away, and that would leave his family, friends, and legacy shattered. I have my suspicions on just what that might be, but I’ll leave it up to the more knowledgeable commentators to speculate in the years to come.
And while I’m at it, I might just add that it is also possible that some powerful forces pressured and coerced Roh into making the “right” decision. (Completely unsubstantiated, of course)
Suicide is no joke, and IMHO it takes more than a run-of-the-mill charge of bribery to get someone to feel like that’s the only option left.
When I made my comment #82, it was actually published at a number around #29 or 30; the comment immediately succeeding my two was then around #30 also. Does anyone know how these three comments moved down so far? There are responding quotations of my primary comment far before it actually appears.
I still stand by the comment. Objections, such as the fact that jumping off a cliff is a different method of committing suicide than hara-kiri, are red herrings and do not wash. The method isn’t really important, as far as I’m concerned: it’s the result and the social position of the individuals.
The bottom line for me is that Westerners have been trained to believe that suicide is “cowardly”; the main reason for this indoctrination is that nobody in our culture wants to feel guilty or lonely when someone else commits suicide.
To the objectors to my comment, this *IS* more similar to the life-ending Japanese ritual than to the depressed person who takes too many sleeping pills. Roh was the leader of a nation. He, his family, and associates were being targeted in a corruption probe. Roh recognized the fact that his suicide would likely save others around him, and he also realized his own personal responsibility for what happened.
For my part, I do not think Roh was a great man or president, but I don’t think he was a bad man or an entirely bad president either. I may not be qualified to say this, but over the course of his tenure, I suspect the nation grew up in terms of what it expected from its presidents. His tragedy is that he began under the old rules and finished under the new. I speak not of official rules governing the Presidential office and powers, but of the cultural expectations of the nation for the office.
–
Quick question: were his interrogations really 13 hours long? That’s simply inhumane.
timmy at # 92 says:
“But I find this theory not entirely plausible because at $6mn, the allegations could not do serious damage to Roh’s moral reputation even if they were all proven to be true.”
I don’t agree with you at all. First, the issue is that he was corrupt, not that he was less corrupt compared to his predecessors. Second, while $6 million is not a lot of money by the standards of Third World heads of states pilfering from the national treasury, it is still a lot of money from the perspective of your everyday Koreans in the streets–esp. Roh’s supporters and admirers.
A former Korean president committing suicide is not even tangentially relevant to most Americans. Korea is a major trading partner and host to 38,000 troops, but Roh’s suicide will not impact either significantly; hence, news of his death merited only one day’s headlines in the US.
“Cowardly”(per the west) or “hororable”(per the east). I don’t see why you folks make such a big deal about this when according to my Korean co-workers they don’t see what Roh did as “honorable.” They said those who liked Roh might say it was “honorable,” those who didn’t like him wouldn’t say such a thing.
Not much different from the west, those who liked any particular person that committed suicide would argue for whatever reason that the act wasn’t cowardly, rather due to depression or what have you.
I say Roh was given the oopsy daisy(even though the authorities ruled out the possibility that anyone could’ve written/typed the note on his computer). Other than that, just a normal day at work!
Won Joon Choe’s family also needs to be investigated. I think he is from a corrupt Korean family in Kyongsangdo that likes to point fingers, but ships wealth overseas, very few did military service out of the inability to pay off someone, and talks very patriotic, but it ready to flee the country at moment’s notice.
I am not the bit surprised that bumfromkorea has a very leftist uncle in Korea.
Kim Jongil should commit suicide.
Like Bevers, I am worried about Roh’s soul.
This shows to me what a stubborn son of a bitch Roh is. I thought he preferred the spelling of his name Noh Moohyun.
Here is my condolence to the most liberal, most stubborn, and by far the most selfmade South Korean President to date.
The suicide note was left on a computer, open and not saved.
In other words, the only possible way to do it so that 1) it can’t be verified that it was Roh (through handwriting, etc.) and 2) the time that it was written cannot be verified (as it could if it had been saved).
Just sayin’.
Has anyone seen this op-ed on the K-Times?
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2009/05/137_45616.html
One of the few worthwhile op-eds written there whose author is not named Lankov, Breen, or Jackson.
Fingerprint on keyboard, power button , etc.
Glove it or smudge it.
Nathan,
I wasn’t suggesting cowardice, but calling you on your conclusion that its somehow the ultimate act of both bravery and responsibility, there was no act of contrition to demonstrate any taking of responsibility, indeed more of a suggestion of ending investigation to avoid more coming out of the woodwork.
Wow…I thought the murder conspiracy theory wasn’t entirely crazy but still completely implausible, but now that major papers are saying the bodyguards testimony wasn’t completely accurate, I’m not so sure anymore. This is fucking crazy.
http://www.donga.com/fbin/output?n=200905260424&top20=1
A hiker claims he saw someone who looked like a bodyguard walking alone on the trail leading up to the cliff where Noh Moo-hyun supposedly jumped from at at 6:20 on the day Noh died.. The man said the man had a radio receiver in his ear and that they walked and talked together for about thirty meters, and when he arrived at the top of the cliff, he did not see Noh. The Korean article is HERE.
The bodyguard had said he was with Noh the whole time, but now he has apparently changed his testimony. LINK
I wonder if they bothered to give the bodyguard a polygraph test, considering that he was supposedly the only one with Noh at the time of his death and considering that the suicide note was only written on a computer without being printed out and signed.
If I were going to leave a note to my family, I would have done it more privately by, at least, printing it out and putting it in an envelope addressed to my wife and children.
Now that the bodyguard has apparently been caught in a lie, the police need to seriously reconsider the possibility that it was not a suicide.
This shit is making me sick to my stomach
So if it is murder (which I still highly doubt), then who could’ve had the motive?
Any potential culprits other than the two Kims?
I think the testimony of hiker and the change in testimony of the bodyguard are going to cause the shit to hit Korea’s deadly fan.
A shabby, impersonal, unsigned, word processor suicide note; no last minute phone calls to his children; a rushed return of the body to be cremated; and a rush to judge it as a suicide all added to the testimony of the hiker and a change in testimony by the bodyguard is going to raise the suspicions of a lot of people. I am glad I do not live in Seoul.
Well, now the papers are saying the bodyguard straight up lied about being near him at the time of jumping off (apparently, he wasn’t there at all). They are basically saying that this fucking guy made up the story about the cigarette and the conversation about some guy passing by below.
I thought at first maybe he just screwed up details on his first testimony because things are hectic, nervousness, etc, but now you’re gonna admit that you straight up lied? This is just bad.
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