In a recent survey of 57 countries, South Korea was ranked 27 in national competitiveness. Below its neighbors Japan and China, and well below traditional area leaders Hong Kong and Singapore. Why is Korea lacking in this area? Well we could bring up things like inconsistant and puzzling regulations, selectively applying the rules to businesses, banana republic-esque petty spats with journalists, or my favorite whipping boy, tariffs and the evils they cause.
According the reporting article, none of the above is a major contributor to hindering national competitiveness. The big reason is the labor market. No, it’s not the byzantine labor law that can create bloated non-competitive companies. According to the Joongang dispatch, it’s the labor demonstrations that give Korea a reputation:
But the ranking for Korea could have been higher with improvement in labor-management relations, the Swiss academic institute data showed. In that sector Korea came in 56th. The country has been at the bottom for six consecutive years through 2008 when it came to labor-management relations…Some say that Korea’s bad reputation for belligerent labor activities, a view widely shared globally, prevents companies already critical of labor unions from accurately measuring local improvements.
There are local improvements? Well let’s try to measure them. Let’s start simple and look at just the past month.
In the past month I am sure we can find a great example in Korea of a peaceful gathering not marred by protest violence. How about the “Hi, Seoul” festival:
Seoul Metropolitan Police officials sought arrest warrants yesterday for 11 protesters who staged an illegal rally Saturday in downtown Seoul to commemorate the first anniversary of protests over imports of American beef…The police pressed charges against the suspects for physically assaulting riot police and hijacking a stage in front of City Hall that was set up to host the opening ceremonies of Hi Seoul Festival 2009.
OK, well that is more political than labor related, but the irony is to great to pass up in a snarky blog post. There are these labor protests over the past month:
I guess we can at least say that there have been no violent labor protests in Korea over the past month? Well, there is this one:
The Supreme Public Prosecutors’ Office said yesterday that it will seek warrants to detain independent truckers’ union protesters who armed themselves with bamboo poles and attacked police officers during a Saturday protest in Daejeon…The violent clash injured 104 police officers and 40 protesters and damaged 99 police vehicles, according to the Daejeon Metropolitan Police Agency.
Some may say I am being unfair, after all if you read the orginal Joongang piece you will see a selective edit. There are these lines:
Some local researchers say that labor-management relations have improved at smaller companies…”It is a dual structure,” said Yoo Gyeong-joon, a labor-market economist at the Korea Development Institute. “Labor unions at small and midsize companies are quickly becoming flexible.”
So I guess we can say can say smaller companies have not had any labor related violence the past month? Well, one could point out this from the trucker article above:
The government does not recognize the truckers’ group as a labor union because truckers are categorized as self-employed business professionals who sign contracts with forwarding companies.
How much smaller can you get than a “self-employed professional”? OK maybe that is a bit too much. How about a protest at this medium-sized business:
A company in Busan said it was forced to shut its doors Monday morning because of violent protests, assault and general disruption by a labor union affiliated with the Korean Confederation of Trade Unions, a sometimes-radical umbrella group.
S&T Mechatronics said in a press release issued Monday that it closed after several of its top executives were severely beaten by members of a Busan-based metal union last week.
The firm said company chairman Choi Pyung-gyu, 56; president Je Man-ho, 47; and four other executives were hospitalized for four days after union members cursed and then beat them. It also attributed the closure to what it called an illegal sit-in demonstration by union members.
(aside: The KCTU is a “sometimes-radical” umbrella group? Or for that matter, only “radical“? Considering their close involvement in two violent labor protests in the past month alone, do we really need the pretenses?)
So where is this “improvement” reported by the Joongang and cited by a labor economist? The only thing I can find is this observation on the trucker strike:
“The pain of being beaten by a bamboo stick was nothing compared to that of being hit by stones thrown by protesters in the past,” said Roh Ji-hwan, another riot policeman. His thighs and wrist bore severe injuries.
Well I guess technically that is a measurable improvement. I take it all back.
{ 60 comments… read them below or add one }
Right before I came to work for a Korean company, a good friend of mine who emigrated and has lived in the US for 20 years, explained that his father had to close his profitable manufacturing business in Korea and retired due to union worker activities. He never reopened the business and those workers never regained their jobs. A bit drastic I thought.
So how do the crazy union antics wer’re discussing tie together with efficiency?
Korean management is cowed by their union workers. They take a hands off approach, play cheerleader at meetings and the soju bang, and avoid confrontation altogether. There are few metrics, no substantitive performance evaluations and no one is fired when they screw up. No one seems accountable for anything, management or workers.
Good management will be able to deal with the unions and get them to work productively. That is their job. There really is no one else to blame and that is supposedly why they are paid the big bucks anyways.
What would be interesting would be do dive into this acrimonious work culture to find where it is coming from… I suspect very strongly it is rooted in the management culture of the dictatorship years. Here’s a stab: The guys who ran companies in the 70s and 80s are still around in the blue house, city mayors, on boards of directors, etc. And the people they promoted followed their lead. Korean management is about one way communication, following the ruler, keeping with the herd and pretending to work long hours while nursing a hangover after staying up all night with the boss the night before. It’s not about innovation. In a one way communication scenario, management does not listen to workers. However, violence is a way to be heard that worked since the battle for democracy. So, a moderate Korean management just struts around doing their regular autocratic routine but also just let’s the workers do whatever their going to do. And progress is nil. Workers know this and will flip out if they believe their rights are violated. It’s the only way they know how to communicate with management.
so… here’s a good question… Hyundai Motors, for example, has massive labor problems. But why not the big Korean company that makes chips, cellphones, and flat screen TVs? How have they managed to escape unions and labor problems while operating in the same environment as the rest of Korean companies?
That is a good question. The only answer I’ve heard is “They pay more.” I would imagine that, given that it’s the largest company in Korea (SSE alone is about 15% of the total market cap in Korea, IIRC – I can’t download stats on the Korea Exchange site anymore because I’ve lost patience with all the add-on programs they make users download before you can see their data), any employee who would think of canvassing to start up a union there would be taking a huge personal risk. The employees seem pretty happy to be working at the No. 1 firm, making the No. 1 bucks, and thus anyone trying to start a union would likely meet with a lot of resistance from the very people he/she was trying to benefit.
Certainly that’s got to be part of it. Several years ago when I worked in the pharmaceutical industry, both of the plants (Pfizer as an intern while in college, and Eli Lilly once I graduated) that I worked at had successfully prevented the employees from unionization. The strategy was simple… treat the employees well enough that they don’t want a union (Plan A) and keep their ear to the ground and listen to the rumblings in case they had to invoke Plan B. Plan B, which happened, though rarely, was that if it seemed like the labor force seemed to be entertaining the idea of organizing, considerable raises were given across the board. That approach was quite effective. Employees were generally already proud and lucky to work there and they knew it. And, in the halcyon days of patent-protected Prozac (for Lilly) and the late 90′s for Pfizer (Zoloft, Viagra launch, etc.), Plan B was not a problem if needed.
As for the #1 Korean company, perhaps I’ll comment on that one a little more from home, where it’s safer.
These unions are asking for more better paid and more bonuses. Obviously some company bosses don’t want to negotiate with them thus the protests is only answer. Union is not that bad at all, at least that’s what keep us informed and alerted, after all it’s the union that we all enjoy holiday payout, sick days and company lunch/dinner etc..
Every companies around the world have union issues, over here in Australia even the teachers, nurses, doctors, and firefighters protests. Just last week, Sydney had trukies protest over road safety and paid increase.
Not listening then use the force.
Just curious, did the guys in Sydney bring bamboo poles and attack the police, vandalize their vehicles, and subsequently claim “self-defense?”
With the troublemakers, the worst stance the government can take is to be heavy-handed. That’s what’s confounding the problem at the moment. If people are throwing a fit saying they want their rights, the worst you can do is to take away their right to throw a fit.
What do you mean by that? What rights are you thinking of? Are you thinking of something that isn’t contained in the employment contract? What rights of the Hyundai Motors workers, for example, have been violated every spring for the past 20-ish years?
My favorite was about two or three years ago, when hyundai motors’ factory workers didn’t meet their year-end manufacturing quota (because of their striking) and therefore didn’t get the bonus that their contracts promised them had they made the quota… they rioted and physically attacked one of the top executives, if I recall correctly. As a result, they got their undeserved bonuses.
Strike that… my favorite was when the Posco (or Posteel?) employees had the approximately one month sit-in in the company headquarters. After the power and utilities were cut to the building, they still stayed, and basically destroyed much of the building, including using some of the rooms as big big toilets. It was planned to round up only the organizers to be held accountable, but I’m not sure to what extent that ended up happening.
World. Class.
*Troublemakers* —- the right to make trouble of course….
Even with the 비정규직 논란, I don’t think they have a leg to stand on nowadays. Their fights for their rights were legitimate during the Jundoohwan era, but I am less sympathetic now. However, the government is not doing the right thing by threatening them to take away their rights to hold protest rallies (집회신고(허가)제).
threatening them to ->threatening to
Oh please, what’s new? Government responds with a hard hand toward protests, DOES NO GOOD WHATSOEVER. We’ve seen it all before, whether it be beef or Yongsan or truckers. And to be honest, what got the protestors become more violent? The politicians who pitted the riot police and the rioters against each other in the first place.
Meanwhile, I find it hilarious that none of your recent posts mention anything about a) recent measures taken by the Ministry of Culture against the Korean National Univ. of Arts (cutting subsidies, telling the school what to do with curriculum, pushing out the school’s president etc), b) the fascinating Hwang Suk-Young situation (seriously. It’s fascinating. Like Chunwon Kwang-su Lee during the Japanese Occupation, or something), c) the recent statistics revealing that the poverty gap is wider than ever, or even d) the recent sordid business (and ensuing/imminent uproar) with Justice Shin who sent emails to various judges telling them to get the hell on with the candlelight vigil trials.
I mean, your blog, of course. Just wondering why none of these interesting little issues have nary a mention.
Holding a protest to demand the right to protest? Yeah, that sounds like Korea.
I don’t know the steps in the devolution, but of course, as a Westerner, I tend to think that disagreements have to begin with a look at the contract. If someone broke the contract, the other party has a legal right to take action. If you’re at the end of a contract, and looking to get a better deal for yourself, then you negotiate. Unions are able to use collective action, including strikes, as a tool in negotiations…but all this is actually pretty dry and legalistic (strikes in the West are usually pretty dull). The passion of Korean strikes comes from all this nonsense about “They are denying our right to live!!” And all those dudes in the red headbands get caught up in the passion of the fight and start using violence, which is, in Korea, and accepted negotiating tactic. In the West, it’s just a crime. In the West, we could put them in jail for breaking the law, without violating anyone’s rights. But in Korea, people ignore the law, focusing on the language used and the workers’ “right to live” – this is a nonexistent rights violation, after all.
In economics, there is a term called ‘hold-up’. When a supplier gets control of a crucial input and the producer cannot obtain another source of supply, then the supplier has an opportunity to charge any price that will not put the producer out of business. Hold-up opportunities are usually temporary, because eventually the producer will find a way around the hold-up, or another supplier will set up business to take advantage of the artificially high price.
But law can be used to make hold-up opportunities basically permanent. Which happens here. Unions cannot be fucked with, by law, and therefore they can charge a high price for labor. If they charge TOO HIGH a price, though, then the company would go out of business. Therefore the unions have to be careful not to take too much cash out of the company. But what if the company has the benefit of government backing? What if it’s TOO BIG TO FAIL?
What if, as a union leader, you know that your company is so valued by your country that your government will extend it unlimited loans to keep operating? That even if, in the worst possible case, the company does go technically bankrupt, the government will take it over and nationalize it and and feed it the money to keep it operating? What if you know your company is so big that it has thousands of suppliers who rely on it for most of their business, and so it has the power to promise you billions of dollars in new wages and benefits every year, and then just tell its suppliers that it is implementing retroactive price cuts going back 6 months?
You’ve got the opportunity for a major hold-up. But note now that you don’t have to worry about destroying your company, because the entire nation will apply its resources to keeping your company alive. So then, the only thing you have to worry about is, if this goes too far, that your whole nation will find itself – wait a minute, at the bottom of the industrial world’s competitiveness rankings. Hmm.
btw, there are obvious similarities here to what is going on with the US automakers, and more tangentially to the banks and AIG. Maybe we’ll get into that on the weekend.
bmalanie, that’s rather a lot of topics thrown together. Perhaps you might choose one, find a link or two for context, and explain the problem a little more fully?
Also, this is a dram_man post, not a Marmot post (It’s not dram-man’s blog).
I second bmelanie. Seriously, I do wonder why all the exciting things in the news don’t get posted but then I’m told that because it’s a blog for expats who like boobs.
For example, Marmot once gave a lukewarm answer to someone asking why the prosecutors vs Nomuhyun wasn’t being posted on, and the sentiment that ran high about the relatively silent burial of the Jang Jayeon case – that this was because he’s gotten weary that it was all the same & he expects history will repeat itself when 2MB leaves the Blue House..While this is very probable, I still think there is a lot of exciting things in the news, which don’t see the expat light.
Linkd/ “But law can be used to make hold-up opportunities basically permanent. Which happens here. Unions cannot be fucked with, by law, and therefore they can charge a high price for labor. If they charge TOO HIGH a price, though, then the company would go out of business. Therefore the unions have to be careful not to take too much cash out of the company. But what if the company has the benefit of government backing? What if it’s TOO BIG TO FAIL? ?”
Stop equalizing all unions to giants like the Hyundai Motor Union (now that is one fucking poweful union). But making all the unions out to be as greedy/powerful as the big ones is a huge and mistaken generalization. Take the truckers’ union, for example – these guys needed to negotiate because they were spending more and more on rising gas and highway tolls while the fees they were being paid to transport cargo were conversely decreasing, and eventually (as my father, who works at the Korean Labor Institute, told me) it actually DID become a ‘fight to live’. The Union demanded negotiations but the big dudes like POSCO refused to consider pay raises and instead cut off their work, which lead to the huge strikes. My father has seen all sorts of shit in his work, he’s even been kidnapped and held hostage by union members in their negotiations (they were trying to get him to talk to the management for them. he refused), but more often than not he feels inclined to sympathy for the unions because a lot of those people deserve better working conditions.
Linkd/ if you are interested, this is just some context for the current absurdity going on at KNUC (Korean National Univ. of Arts). Yes, I know it’s the Hankyoreh (which is fondly named the Hanky here at Marmot) but they’re the only English articles I could find that really took a good look at what’s happening.
“President of KUNA announces resignation due to a “political audit””
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/355848.html
Recently the Culture of Ministry has been urging (and by ‘urging’ I mean basically ordering) school’s long-time president Chi-woo Hwang to resign (presumably as he does not ‘jive’ with the current government’s agenda). Hwang refused, so the Ministry started looking for tidbits to force him out. They found he had taken trips to Europe and a weekend trip to Japan last year, and found photos of when he was taking a leisurely walk during working hours, and immediately flagged it as negligence. They also accused him of misusing the school funds in travelling (Hwang later explained he had made a mistake in submitting the receipts)…Hwang recently announced that he had had enough of this interrogation and submitted his resignation.
“[Analysis] Conservative labeling of KNUA interdisciplinary centers as ‘leftist training grounds’ ” (http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/356071.html)
Now that the primary obstacle Hwang is out of the way, the Ministry is immediately ordering various changes to the school curriculum, namely the new interdisciplinary programs that Hwang has been enthusiastically supporting (Ubiquitous Art Technology, which integrates Art and Science), and various other classes such as Creative Narrative and Theory. The Ministry has been pushing for the curriculum to become tighter and for the school to stop creating these new interdisciplinary programs for some time and when the administration refused they promptly cut all government subsidies to the school. When the administration still did not concede, they pounced on Hwang. Now Hwang is gone. The students are extremely apprehensive as to what wll happen.
Now, all this adds up and agrees with my idea that this current government is FUCKING FASCIST. What do you think?
I think it’s probably pretty complicated. A story such as you’ve presented for the KNUC would take a lot of reading to fully understand, and I suppose it’s quite unlikely that all that reading is available in English. For a small start, the motivations for the Ministry’s campaign against Hwang are not at all clear. So I have to withhold any agreement on the fascist claim.
As for yuna’s regret about ‘all the interesting things’ going on in the news, it’s sort of the same problem. For foreigners to come up with passionate opinions about particular cases is difficult, because high levels of detail about particular cases are not available in English. So we discuss things more conceptually, talking about ‘the system’ mostly.
Take the truckers example (I know nothing specific about it, I’m afraid): Korea is an export economy. Korea’s exports dropped by about 30% in late 2008/early 2009. That’s a lot less stuff that needs to be moved around. At the same time, oil prices had shot up, making it costlier to move stuff. Fewer truckloads, higher gas prices. That means less money to be made by moving things by truck.
Whose problem is that?
It depends. If the truckers were regular unionized workers of a single company, then the company would still have to pay them their salaries. But it seems that the truckers have to pay for gas, so I guess then the truckers are actually free agents who can work for any company? Then what does it mean to be unionized? Unionized free agents? I’m a little confused. If they don’t work for a particular company, then which company is responsible for maintaining their income level? Or is it just that they want EVERY company to pay higher rates?
OK, fine, what if EVERY company paid higher rates? But remember, the manufacturers are manufacturing 30% fewer exports. So where does the money come from?
It seems that you’re asking for corporate welfare. Even though gas prices are high, and even though there are fewer goods to move, we should still keep the same number of truckers at the same level of income, rather than letting market forces eliminate some truckers. If that’s the economic system you want, then fine – that means that companies are more responsible for supporting people than the government is. A democratic society can make these decisions for itself. The truckers understandably wanted SOMEONE to give them money, because they were suffering. But is that someone the corporate sector or the government?
And that is what I mean by talking about ‘the system’ as opposed to individual cases. It takes a lot of detail to understand individual cases. I’m almost afraid to push ‘Submit’ and see how long this post is.
To continue (no doubt everyone was hoping I would):
Your father was kidnapped by someone who thought that kidnapping was their best option of protecting their job. That’s pretty extreme.
How should I look at that? Pick one or more:
1) The kidnapper knew that he was over 38 and so considered too old to find another job in Korea. He knew that he had absolutely no other decent economic option, so he had nothing to lose. He committed a felony and terrorized your father to save his own job, because he simply felt he had no other option. The problem here is that, in Korea, the economy fails to offer people a chance to have more than one REAL job in their lives.
2) The kidnapper had benefited from a hold-up in his current occupation, and so his job overpaid him by such a gross amount that it was worth committing a felony to keep his golden egg of a job. The problem here is that unions have extracted way too much value from the economic production process.
3) My whole felony/terrorist premise in 1) and 2) is faulty, and in fact, in Korea, it really isn’t such a bad thing to kidnap someone. It was just another negotiating tactic – no big deal. The problem here is one of public morality.
What do you think?
…okay, so clearly I should have provided some context for the kidnapping story. By kidnapping, I do not mean that they bound/gagged him and threw him into a Black Maria and drove away. By kidnapping (I realize now that I should have used a better word), I mean that they drew him into their office and refused to let him leave (at the time, when we didn’t know what was going on, it seemed pretty serious – my mother was close to calling the police).
My dad actually thought the whole situation was kind of funny. I later heard he refused to do what they asked, and then took a nap in their office as he hadn’t had much sleep that week. They let him go after a few hours, without any bodily harm – the fact that my dad’s usually pretty sympathetic to unionists probably helped, he’s well-respected by a lot of people (he used to work for the taxi union back in the 80s and 90s, he knows these kind of people). He did not press any charges. As he said later, ‘they didn’t mean any harm’.
I can’t respond immediately to your rebuttal about the trucker’s union (like I said, I’m going by my father’s explanation), but with regards to your ‘withholding of agreement on the fascist claim’, is it really that complicated? Granted, what Hwang did and why the Ministry hates him so much is still to be clarified, but the point is that the Ministry is trying to fuck with an art school curriculum. No self-respecting school, and moreover no art school at that (btw, the KNUA is the most comprehensive, well-respected and prestigious art school in Korea), should be obliged to change anything on their curriculum according to a government department’s whims unless they are teaching the students how to enter buildings with suicide jackets. In fact, the entire affair smacks of the Park-Chun-Roh eras (*shudder*). The fact that they are even making these demands disturbs me greatly (one of their suggestions include cutting back the different departments – music, dance, etc – and cramming them together into one). For me it signifies a serious breach of boundaries (right for free expression? anyone?) – do you disagree?
I don’t know if it does take that much reading, Linkd. I am talking about the topics which come at the top of Naver or Daum which get thousands of comments by the Korean readers. for example, I don’t know why Marmot has an issue with Hankyoreh, while a lot of the Koreans I know have come to form a low opinion of 조중동. While I understand that the overall purpose of the site is to keep it light, and not become a English Naver blogfeed, it would be good to have some more balanced and in-depth topical posts, once in a while : for example, what I see right now in Korean news via Google Korea in the right column is a good representative selection and it contains:
http://www.gooddaysports.co.kr/news/?cset=hot&bset=view&tot_code=269&code=50041
which highlights my point earlier on what the government clampdown plans are at the moment with regards to the 민노..As usual, I am not for one or the other in particular, but just playing the devils advocate – I just don’t like it when there is a blanket assumption(not you, Linkd) based on second-guessing without reading what’s in the Korean language media along with comments containing the sentiments of the people, but I also concede that on some level, this cannot be helped..
I also see your point in ‘talking about the system’, but for me right now, Marmot remains a blog highlighting just one certain side of Korea’s politics, culture, etc. Most of the posts I’ve seen are about how awful, ignorant and violent the protestors are. I don’t think I’ve see a post that covered the Japanese-tourist-At-Myungdong-who-got-injured-by-the-riot-police story (He was just walking by, when he got ambushed by a bunch of riot police who immediately started beating him up with batons. He screamed he was Japanese. They stopped. A few days later the riot police began to yell, in Japanese, for people to leave the area right now if they were Japanese tourists. http://kr.news.yahoo.com/service/news/shellview.htm?linkid=459&articleid=2009050617200099624&newssetid=1270 – unfortunately I could not find an English article). Nor have I seen one that covered the Police Department’s comprehensive (and frankly, hilarious) list of Violent Illegal Civil Protest Groups, which included (I kid you not) the Busan, Bucheon and Jeonju International Film Festivals, the Journalists’ Association, the Broadcast Producers’ Association, among others. (http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_editorial/354903.html)
I also have an issue with the disdain Marmot has for the Hankyoreh. As I have demonstrated above, the KNUA business was clearly talked about (and I’m sure I can find some more) in English-language articles. It takes two to tango, you know, and while I understand this is a conservative blog – last time I checked – sometimes NOT ripping apart the opposition works. Plus, Marmot is missing out on a LOT of interesting stories.
OK, I read your first link. It says nothing. I read the second link, and it’s better, but not by much.
Yes, in principle I don’t think government ministries should be bothering themselves about curricula in universities. In stronger terms, governments should not be telling universities what to teach or not to teach. But it isn’t clear what the Hanky means by “progressive” professors and school heads. If – and I say IF, cuz I have no idea – but IF some left-wing professors have taken it upon themselves to start using their classes to push extreme political agendas, then that is also wrong – just like it is wrong when far-left grade-school teachers do it in Korea’s elementary, middle and high schools.
A final thing to consider is that the school is, after all, funded by the government. Having spent about a decade in university, I have a lot of respect for the intellectual freedom that universities ought to have. But common sense would tell me that, if you’re employed BY the government, and you come out swinging with hard criticisms OF the government, you shouldn’t be too surprised if they fire you.
That’s fine. But remember this is a private blog, and Marm has no obligation to maintain journalistic neutrality. He has relatively extreme opinions on a few political/military/immigration issues, and has even called himself a libertarian. His blog, he can rag on the Hanky if he likes.
I think we are all starting to realize it is just a question of time before you become a guest poster, yuna.
What purpose do the police serve here except as a giant labour control device? They’re certainly not here to enforce the law as it is actually written on the statute books.
How wonderful that international business’ primary concern is to see Korean labour subdued. Do they share the same concerns about the notoriously strike prone French I wonder? Never mind. As long as a country has a docile and obedient workforce, international investors will be happy, the economy will be given a nice high ranking, and that’s all that matters. Let businesses do whatever they like and fuck the workers, courtesy of government-provided police.
The labour unions aren’t the most reasonable of people, obviously, but, still, I’m happy to see some spirit in the workforce here. So long as they have that, they have some defense against the Korean bosses who will squeeze everything out of them they can.
@1, +1.
dda, isn’t ROK labor protest culture a mimic of what French and Italian liberal-anarchists do in their countries to show disagreement with their government and their employers?
I believe it is. In fact, I think the public in France condones farmers blocking off bridges and main roads in order to make a point about grain policy.
dda, it is evident that your country is certainly inferior and sometimes harmful to world influence, as evident by your native language being unnecessarily complicated and unuseful versus English, and your protest culture setting a bad example across the world. It’s no coincidence the French constantly are amending their constitution. What is it now, the xth republic of France?
notably, both French and Italian leaders of today are married or having affairs with sometimes found in the nude semi porn dolls. Let this not be a influence to the world. I can’t imagine the US condoning the first lady of the White House being Clinton’s Monica Lewinsky.
“If – and I say IF, cuz I have no idea” – yes, this seems to be an emerging problem. People have no idea, because they all flock to Marmot and Roboseyo etc. and no one really bothers to post/translate the other perspective, the other stories that are just as interesting and worth thought. (And I gave up blogging because of schoolwork…bollocks)
And concerning left-wing political agendas – it’s an ART school, as I have reiterated in previous posts. I doubt the professors were teaching their students to create Art that Rebelled Against the Government – and if they were, bless them, that’s what Art is all about. (And could you elaborate on the left-wing teachers who brainwash their students?)
And you know what? Just because it isn’t surprising doesn’t mean it’s right. In fact, it’s horribly, horribly wrong, the flippant way personnel is replaced and transplanted.
That’s not true at all. This blog has presented multiple posts calling for greater worker protection, improved workers’ rights, greater job security, more power of self-determination, limits on employer freedom. It’s just that the workers in question are English teachers. I assure you that the principles you are in favor of are widely shared by many readers here, many of whom have been personally affected by the flippant way personnel are treated. In fact, they are so wrapped up in their own worries about their job security and what they perceive as their human rights that they have little or no time to be worried about their Korean brethren who suffer under similar tyranny.
I have been busy but I will ask around and see what the deal is and will post if I find something interesting.
Korean businesses are notorious for being stingy, perhaps the laborers (who are looked down on) are being ripped off very chance the businesses get. @1, maybe what your friend didn’t tell you was that his father was a douchebag and was profitable because he paid his workers in pennies…who knows. For whatever problem story his father had, I knew countless workers who got shafted by management and in general, I get the feeling that most don’t give a flying hoot.
Fact is, historically Korean laborers never got any good opportunities, let alone a chance to raise a voice about it, so perhaps these demonstrations should be looked at favorably as a whole (I don’t condone violence but I won’t be naive about the fact that it’s quite effective) instead of using the article to boo Korea about.
Sweet mother of god, man – what the hell are you talking about? This country had a per capita GDP equal to a handful of dirt 50 years ago, the same as 100 or so other countries. Most of those 100 other countries are still in about the same shape. Korean workers, on the other hand, are now living in apartments, driving cars, communicating via satellite and enjoying such cool things as reliable electricity supply, plumbing, and a consumer culture that rivals the West’s. Just to keep things in a bit of perspective.
aside: Congratulations, b***ol, it seems you may have fomented the beginnings of a small leftist revolution here at the Marmot’s Hole.
@bmelanie, yuna, et. al.
All of those are definatly interesting stories, and yes perhaps they should get some play. The shin case I find especially interesting.
The problem is it’s a big world, I am one person only, and I post for free.
So I post on what attracts my eye, usually things with an economic bent. I also have a pet-peeve on news stories that do not back up conclusions or miss what I feel is an important angle, this story has both (no mention of other major things that hinder Korean competitiveness, and a conclusion by the paper and an expert that things are “improving” with nothing to back that up).
I also admitedly blog sometimes as a sort of scratchpad to either remember or consolidate things for future reference.
So back to your suggestions. They are not really my beat, so as far as
I know the papers already cover them adequetly and I have no further insight or perspedtive to offer.
Fact is, historically Korean laborers never got any good opportunities
Lee Wan-Yong did.
I think I should point out that I am the one who calls the lefty rag the Hanky when I link to it. I believe the Marmot refers to it as the Hani. If you read here much you will soon find that the paper he really hates is the Chosun Ilbo.
There are some expat blogs out there (Metropolitician?) that are more towards the left.
For the record, the Marmot — a.k.a. Robert Koehler a.k.a. me — doesn’t hold the Hankyoreh in disdain. Actually, I translate pieces for their English edition. Sure, their editorial line has me scratching my head much of the time, but then again, I’m a conservative, so that should be expected.
Also for the record, I don’t hate the Chosun Ilbo. As a good friend and former blogger once put it, it’s the most 신문다운 paper out there, and I enjoy it immensely. But yes, I find much of what the Chosun does as objectionable as what the Hani does, and perhaps more so because of the Chosun’s greater influence. I should also say I EXPECT more from the Chosun, since its got the resources and talent to be a much better paper than it is, IMHO.
bmelanie — the reason I’m missing a lot of stories is because, frankly, my blogging time has been quite limited over the last month or so due to several ongoing work-related projects. You seem like a smart guy/girl and would be more than welcome to post here, though — just send me an intro of who you are (I like to know who my cobloggers are) and I’ll set it up so you can post.
From #31:
I don’t believe I’ve argued for this, though. In fact, I believe I’ve called English teachers whingers and leaches on society (along with the hagwon owners and the rest of the English Education Uber Alles crowd). In fact, if forced to choose between sympathy for the KCTU and the non-union ATEK, I’d probably choose the former.
And one last note — I find it patently unhelpful when some posters post on subjects that are, perhaps, beyond their general scope of knowledge. As the administrator of this blog, this is ultimately my fault for allowing this to continue, and for it, I apologize.
Thank you for that Robert and please do rein in those egocentric and arrogant posters.
I hope this doesn’t mean that I can’t post on Korea’s changing skull shape anymore. My political posts never get any comments. It’s like I can’t get any love (if you can call it that) unless I go off the reservation.
I’m sure Robert was not referring to you, Jackson.
I doubt the KNUA story is of general public interest, just as the New School/Bob Kerrey kerfluffle in NYC isn’t beyond the students who go there.
I wasn’t referring to you, Mr. Jackson. You’re changing skull shape posts are always welcome.
Yes, I suppose if you get your news from the Han “Everything LMB Does Is A Return to Dictatorship” Kyoreh, it could very well seem like that. When I was working at the Chosun Ilbo, every Roh administration move to reform the media market looked like an attempt to silence the press. Everyone has their meme, I guess. Personally, I think the LMB administration is ham-fisted, but frankly, I don’t find it all that surprising that it’s shell-shocked following an (albeit failed) attempt by opposition groups to overturn the results of not just one but two democratic elections through massive street protests (“Lee Myung-bak OUT!”, anyone?) not even half a year into the new administration. Heck, even the bullshit impeachment of President Roh at least followed parliamentary procedures. But I guess the politics of the street and yelling “dictatorship” is easier than playing a constructive role in parliamentary politics, especially after the electorate hands you your ass in a general election. More so for the DP folk, who — as the Roh administration so showed — were always more comfortable playing revolutionary than governing.
Rob, I can appreciate your parliamentary comments, however given how the Korean parliament reacts to things like impeachment or FTA’s, I am sympathetic to the argument that protesters feel violence is an acceptable form of political discourse.
Actually, these protesters at Sydney did attacked police, by throwing bottles and swing punches. Some protests just ends in violently.
I’m not saying all Korean unions should be doing just that, Korean company executives and bosses are known to be stingy when it comes to pay rise and other company benefits. Also, they don’t talk to their workers.. that’s the problem. It’s difference between leaders and abusers.
I think you have no idea what the word Fascist means or understand the democratic process. I think you are probably too young to remember Pak Chung Hee and Chun Doo Hwan, had no friends who witnessed the carnage in Kwangju, never had people scream at you for asking a political question, and have no memories of the days of military rule when you’d see tanks in Kwang Hwa Moon, couldn’t get a cab home and had to bed down in a yogwan because of the curfew.
I think you may be young and spoiled and have possibly been exposed to a lot of revisionist nonsense in the Hanni about the supposed US role in Kwanju, the so-called No Gun Ri “massacre” and may not be fully aware of No Mu Hyeon’s attempt’s to suppress the media and the incompetence of KDJ and his embrace of real fascism in the north.
I think you have no idea that Koreans were proud that their sacrifices and overwhelming support of a fascist like Park has led Korea to a place where today people are free to call 2MB a “fascist” without fear of repercussions.
I think you are unaware of how counterproductive and over-the-top the student riots have been and have never been tear gassed on a university campus.
I have. And while I laud you for your idealism, I fault you for your lack of perspective and/or inductive logic.
OK, so I was a little over the top there…you’ve got to bear in mind that the “left”/”right” idiological divide is and has historically been a huge, counterproductive and essentially meaningless distraction in Korean politics. Given this baggage, and the unrealistic expectations of the public on both sides of the divide, any Korean leader has an impossible task. The so-called “lefties” (KDJ, NMH) have been narrowminded incompetents and 2MB was not given a fair break. The civic groups have far too much media influence and the kids are gullible followers who, never having learned critical thinking skills, just repeat the errors of their elders. Sure there have been police excesses, but, frankly, the mobs for the most part brought it upon themselves.
During the 70s I warned that the demonstrations should not get unruly or they would lead to consequences but the students persisted in playing their little games with the police, taunting them, egging them on. Viola – Kwangju.
At the time of the 2 schoolgirls demonstrations, I searched for an objective report in the media and found none. I looked to the politicians for some sanity, but they too were cowed by the rule of the mob.
During the beef demonstrations, at least there was a botched attempt to present both sides of the story. Naturally, as with the 2 schoolgirls accident, the mob had to be coddled, however.
I think the problem that the Marmot has with the media in general (and not just the Hanni) is that, as you are well aware, they tend to reflect and justify the rule of the mob rather than engage in journalistic integrity.
I don’t believe I’ve argued for this, though. In fact, I believe I’ve called English teachers whingers and leaches on society (along with the hagwon owners and the rest of the English Education Uber Alles crowd). In fact, if forced to choose between sympathy for the KCTU and the non-union ATEK, I’d probably choose the former.
Ok, I’ll bite. Without English teachers, your magazine would have about 12 readers and you would be translating about an article a month. Without English teachers, Korea would contain Koreans, GI’s and stuffed suits. There would be no Hongdae club scene and Nashville’s would still be the only bar in Itaewon. In fact, weren’t you an English teacher for many years? It’s a bit strange that you resent the majority of your readership. When have English teachers ever engaged in violent anti-government protests that tarnish Korea’s international image? When have they ever fire-bombed US military bases? You may have risen above the dregs, but I think you should remember where you came from and have some sympathy for people that usually put in fairly long hours for Koreans that treat them like dirt.
Can I bite too?
You mean Koreans treat them like dirt for having guaranteed respectable jobs that bring in anywhere between 2 to 5 mil a month (depending on how much you want to work), and that’s not including the free housing. Meanwhile, Koreans — yes these are the people who own the country — would kill to have those kind of options.
And btw, everything you just said only serves to increase Robert’s credibility in this matter.
And btw, everything you just said only serves to increase Robert’s credibility in this matter.
Oops
Are you hinting that I should limit my posts to evaluating photographic evidence of whether or not a female entertainer has had her breasts enlarged?
This thread has become quite interesting–starting with the national survey (wasn’t also foreign investment ranked in the 50s? I read the K-Herald article), and diving deeper into the recent content of MH. I love how the big boss, Mr. Koehler himself, waved his disapproving hand, ever so slightly, with the unstated power of Don Corleone. The only thing missing is the cat in the lap. But that little dig has all the MH posters re-thinking their strategy!
Anyways, I think what makes MH great is its balance and variety of topics–and its commenter base.
As a Korean-American who has travelled only to Seoul and the other popular destinations in the ROK, I particularly enjoy RK’s travel photo essays and mini history classes. That said, I think most of the expat blogs are essentially, as yuna eloquently put, Guys who Like (Korean?) Boobs. This is evidenced by the proliferation of sexual harassment (translated nonetheless) and massage parlor pieces, and the token “tagged as Eye Candy” postings at other blogs. These other sites, the US Magazine-quality of blogs, there’s this awkward, shabby existence of trying to be a credible source of Korean travel, culture and history, as well as, essentially, being K-versions of an online maxim.
That said, unlike that rag of an online space called the K-Herald, you get a pretty diverse voice here at MH, be it the riffs of Net Kim, sonagi’s boob assesment or the piety of WJK. When I realized that Mr. Koehler didn’t do all of the posting, I thought: Well that’s a fucking brilliant idea.
Anyways–rant over.
OK, Mr. Mao, I admit “leaches on society” is a bit harsh. How about this — “the Korean English language industry, in its entirety, is a financial and social burden on society.”
And yes, Mr. Mao, I was an English teacher. For a long time, in fact. And yet, somehow, I never reached the conclusion that receiving 2.5 million won + in addition to getting free housing, health insurance and an opportunity to live in and learn about a fascinating country in return for speaking my mother tongue amounted to “being treated like shit by Koreans.”
To respond to some of the rest:
Wow, who’d have guessed that English teachers were such a vital force on the contemporary Korean cultural scene? I suppose we have English teachers to thank for the hangeul alphabet and the Tripitaka Koreana, too. Not to sound like Dogbertt talking to Korean-Americans, but I have news for you — Korea did just fine before the English teachers came. You’re right — English teachers, unlike Korea’s unionists, have never engaged in violent anti-government protests are fire-bombed US bases. But then again, they contributed none of the blood and sweat that today’s Korea was built on, they didn’t light themselves on fire in protest of being treated like animals, and they didn’t really do anything for Korea’s democratization, either. They do, however, bitch a lot and, if your comment is anything to go by, have an inflated sense of their own self-importance (most I know don’t, though). Just Koreans, GI’s and stuffed suits, eh? How about Chinese, who make up the bulk of Korea’s foreign community? How about Third World guest workers, most of whom would love to get “treated like shit by Koreans” like English teachers? How about immigrant wives? Or do they not count, because they haven’t contributed anything to the Hongdae club scene?
@RKoehler.
Now that you’re fluent in Korean and have lived here for a while, do you feel that Koreans DON’T treat you like shit for the most part?
Is there hope for foreigners who come here and take the time to learn the culture, etc. to actually assimilate? Maybe you’ve addressed this before, and if so, I apologize.
Let’s talk money. Before the won plummeted, 2.5 million was a good wage for a first year teacher. Not everyone gets that either, I knew people that were working for 1.8. Foolish, yes, but Koreans lowball to the extreme. That 2 million won ballpark figure has been the same for, um, 10 years I think. Way to adjust for inflation. If friends of mine in Korea in 2009 are lucky, they will make as much in real money as they did in 2001. What a pay-off for spending 8 years in Korea. To change the subject, Koreans with graduate degrees and lots of teaching experience can make far more than honkies ever can. At my university, we taught twice as much for half the wage. All because most of us didn’t have the bucks to plagiarize our ways through American Ph.D. programs and then scurry back to the land that education forgot. Sparkling.
Let’s not talk about money. Spending 8 years in a country that makes you renew your visa every 365 days is humiliating. Koreans waltz all over the world, enjoying equal rights and becoming citizens if they want to but they slam the door on others in Korea because they cling to outdated notions of race and bloodlines. Essentially, foreigners in Korea are seen as cancers on society. Necessary evils. Foreigners in Korea are assaulted on the streets, have their wages stolen from them, are denied access to health care and are generally treated like second class citizens. Then you guys act as cheerleaders.
English teachers represent the single largest influx of young westerners into Korea. Without the industry, Korea would be even more of a backwater than it already is. Blame the hagwon owners, blame the Ministry of Education, but leave the teachers out of it. 2.5 million is not enough money to work for people that despise you.
I’ve known many fluent long-term Korean residents who say that it is actually worse in some respects. Because no matter how much they try to fit in, they are always singled out, excluded and given the message that they are not one of us. The more they know of the culture and language, the more clear this becomes.
“for having guaranteed respectable jobs that bring in anywhere between 2 to 5 mil a month”
You make it sound like a win on the lottery, this may be better than the ajummah serving in the local restaurant but its hardling making a mint. 2 million is only marginally over the average “starting” wage for korean university graduates (1.8 million), since this is the average Seoul would be higher. Secretaries and admin assistants in central Seoul frequently do better. The only “english teachers” I’ve heard of anywhere near your 5 million, do it with hours of working illegals which is hardly guaranteed. Second, where is the “guaranteed” a korean teacher generally has a job for life, how many english teachers get more than two years before having to change jobs. Third, where is the “respectable”, even you own comment demonstrates the general lack of respect for english teachers here.
Granted, many foreigners, me included, may shoot themselves in the foot by their tone, but I am perturbed by the thought that a complaint/observation/argument is unimportant, if not insulting, simply because of their background.
For example, I have been a target by complaining about taxi drivers. Yet many of the same complaints, if not more, are voiced by Koreans (Being left out in the rain at 12:30am in Kangnam because you don’t want to travel to Ilsan sucks no matter who you are). For some reason though, Many penny-ante demagogues lambasted me simply because of my origin.
As for English teachers specifically, yes there are few particularly grating ones. Yet for the most part they are 23 year-old snot-nosed brats with a Napoleon-complex, not exactly a rare breed. I can say the same thing for, say, 23 year-old foreign bankers, some of whom are the same snot-nosed brats, and some, like some English teachers, are articulate and delightful. Soldiers, Salesmen, Americans, Canadians, Koreans….I think we can say the same thing no matter what the demographic. Let’s not judge a person, or their qualifications to register a complaint, based on a few bad apples.
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