It seems Dokdo Is Ours had a bit of fun at the Korea Times’ expense.
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{ 82 comments… read them below or add one }
Editting letters to the editor? Not suprising. I once sent a three paragraph email to Time magazine’s editor and they red lined two of my three paragraphs.
At least they sent me an email asking for my permission before doing that.
Also. It seems that in order to get your letter published by the KT you just have to put in a good line or two about how awsome Jon Huer is. You can even be nine fucking years old…
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2009/04/137_44035.html
So I guess now they don’t blindly print every submission…they edit them first.
Hey, if you can’t hack it in s korea as an english teacher, why don’t you try your luck with NORTH korea instead? Seems like they’re taking applications, and unlike your bosses in the south, they seem really eager to have you stay for the long haul. (not kidding)
http://www.donga.com/fbin/output?n=200905150119&top20=1
Article says the growing english mania among n korean elites is likely a harbinger of greater openness in n korea’s future. Reporter is Mr. Joo, who has been mentioned here several times.
JW,
What are you trying to say? Btw… that letter is a prank. There is no way the guy who wrote the letter could “only” have been in Korea for three months considering his knowledge of Korean society expressed in his blog.
No point really, thought it was worth pointing out that english mania is growing in n korea too. I mean, I certainly had no idea.
I guess some of you were still in diapers when one hit wonder Robert V. Winkle dominated the airwaves of something called FM radio.
One hit wonder??? He had at least 3 hits… I definitely remember busting a move to several of this musical genius’s masterpieces in the school gym…
they edit it and still cant figure out its a joke. got to love the editors at the KT
word to your adjumma
Well put, Sonagi. And don’t even try to go beyond “the hit”, the Underpressure copy, etc…kids will be lost around here…
Actually, I wonder if the blogger isn’t trying to pwn us about that as well.
I just remember 3rd Bass taking a baseball bat to him in one of their videos.
Ya think?
w00t to teh l33t haxors for their epic pwnage of the KT n00bs. Truly, they are full of win lol wtf bff4ever bbq?
On another note, how would we be reacting if the Dokdo Is Ours kids had been truly successful? While it might seem funny to some people to exaggerate stereotypes about foreigners (I’ve been tempted myself), I have a suspicion it would do more harm than good.
Well, not a bad submission, although his name sounds a little too close to mine – the original dokdoforever. But, dokdo is big enough to share I suppose.
yeah, Granfalloon, I thought about that too – most Koreans could simply see their stereotypes confirmed. I’ve got an idea that might work though.
Over the years, I’ve purused so many job applications sent to me that I’ve lost count, but from the hundreds submitted each year, some gems stand out: physicians, lawyers, even a former state representative have all submitted applications for hire. Frankly, if I heard that Vanilla Ice had become an English teacher in South Korea, it wouldn’t be much of a shock, particularly not when compared to the fate of other entertainment industry has-beens.
It’s a fine line. If you write something really satirical, it’d be hilarious for a few foreigners here, but a lot of people would likely take it at face value. You’d have people laughing at the stereotype(s) it’s lampooning, but then you’d get the blogs and forums going with people who think it’s real. Then you’d have a cast of characters like Jon Huer, Dokdo Poet, and David Thiessen writing endless responses to it.
Dave Jay, I presume?
Am I the only one who thinks that the joke sort of backfired in a small way because the editors did the decent thing of omitting the incendiary stereotyping without knowing it was a joke at least?
It just seems a bit reckless to me. I like laughing at under-informed people who believe anything they read about foreigners as much as the next guy. But throwing fuel on their fire just to get a few laughs is a slap in the face to those foreigners who have made long-term commitments to Korea.
Anyway, I’m glad the KT made their judicious cuts.
Why, Granfalloon? Do you think there is still hope that the Hermit Kingdom would suddenly stop sterotyping foreigners as a contagion?
Sometimes parody can be the most telling form of brutal honesty. What’s wrong with showing Korean Liliputianism for what it really is?
Yeah, but showing to whom?
Thanks for helping make my point, yuna. The Korean Times is probably of of the most effective tools employed to marginalize and contain the foreign contagion.
Mizar5:
I’m not under any illusion that foreigners will ever get a fair shake in the hearts and minds of the whole of Koreadom. But I have noticed that anti-foreign sentiment tends to run highs and lows. In other words, I know this is a battle we can never win, but there are degrees to which we can be losing. The fact that things will never be perfect is no excuse for giving up trying to make them better.
Now, I have no problem with exposing “Korean Liliputianism.” I would totally support trolling parody like this, if I thought for one moment it had a snowball’s chance in hell of helping Koreans understand how and why their views are offensive to us. But I don’t see that as a remotely plausible outcome.
@Mizar and Gran
What type of image exactly would you like to see the media portray of foreigners?
Is it foreigners who speak fluent Korean and are jiving with Korean culture? Hmm, isn’t there that dude in Busan?
What about foreigners just speaking Korean? 미녀들의 수다?
Certainly, foreigners get a very predatory, mostly negative image in the media (similar to how African Americans are potrayed in the States), but I’m genuinely curious about this:
What’s the solution?
How about we all come up with a great satirical parody to submit to the Korea dog trainer? See if it gets printed.
“Certainly, foreigners get a very predatory, mostly negative image in the media (similar to how African Americans are potrayed in the States)”
Certainly, the portrayal of African Americans in the States is not negative.
“but I’m genuinely curious about this:What’s the solution?”
Since you mention the States, it is only logical to look to how the problem of negative portrayals of minorities was turned around in the States. For there to be a solution, there needs to be an analogous heartfelt soul searching – a recognition of the problem, an end to Korean exceptionalism (the misunderstood but blameless race), and an end to denial and the colonialist mindset that attempts to blame others for one’s own problems. It needs to be squarely acknowledged that crimes against foreigners in Korea far exceed crimes of foreigners against Koreans:
http://rokdrop.com/2006/03/15/sexual-assualts-in-korea/
I’m not saying this to impugn anyone. But truth is truth and bullshit is bullshit.
I feel your pain. I’d like to sign up as the token gyopo who is sympathetic to your righteous cause. I have 5 years experience in partaking of the Waeguk-chigae of high outrage, whine, angst which is the blogs of Expats in Korea. This is equivalent to a community college degree in White Boys as an Oppressed Minority Studies. I shall like to assist in writing great satire in perfect English to mock the grave injustices perpetrated by Koreans upon all marginalized and oppressed peoples of Waeguk heritage to be submitted to the esteemed Korea Times (English Edition) where it will be read only by English-speaking Waeguk sarams. I shall be petitioning for Waeguk History Month to be officially recognized in the schools and hagwons. I find that my satirical abilities are greatly heightened with the aid of some ganja so if any Engrish teachers amongst can share your bong I’d be much obliged. I shall also be selling T-shirts in places with slogans such as “I blame Confucianism (TM)”, “No Habla 한국어”, “I’m Canadian, not Mi-Gook-Saram…please don’t hurt me”, “Dokto is for Losers”, and “이 썩스 투 비 미” in places like Itaewon, Hongdae, and Insa-dong to help spread the awareness. All proceeds shall be forwarded to the favorite Expat charitable cause: The Association of Korean Chicks who Love Foreign Cock.
@Mizar
Let me steal a page out of your book: I think you raise some good points, but how would these ideas play out in theory? What does Chosun Ilbo, Korea Herald, MBC, KBS need to do? How should they shift their coverage? How should the media present things differently?
I’m saying this with the memories of watching plenty fo KBS documentaries of like life as a Canadian white woman married to a Korean man in the countryside–and she speaks Korean! There are also many good shows on Korean TV about K-adoptees and some fun-loving shows with foreigners (oddly with K-adoptees, I guess they’re just there to round out the group) going to different parts of the country and “enjoying” Korean culture and food.
Is there some sensationalism in the media when an English teacher gets busted for drugs? Yes. But I see lots of Korean celebrity stories being written when they’re busted for drugs. While foreigner English teachers are not celebrities, I think the media SHOULD highlight their shortcomings–as they are often well-paid temporary workers with an important, specific role in the education system. I don’t think the number of foreigners doing drugs in Korea is significant–nor insignificant. Foreigners (ETs plus GIs) complain they are portrayed as guys who prey on Korean women. Well, how many foreign guys in fact DO date Korean women? I don’t have numbers or facts to support this (and you won’t be able to produce numbers that refute it…there’s just no numbers out there), but the stereotype is true, from my trips to Itaewon, Gangnam, etc.
Again, back to my question: How should the media present things differently? What does an “analogous heartfelt soul searching” actually look like?
***
As for the portray of AA in the media, I am surprised someone as allegedly intelligent and worldly as yourself could non-chalantly say the portrayal of blacks in the U.S. is not negative.
I’m assuming you do, but do you watch the news or read the newspapers? Why is it in any type of crime story, the suspected male is a Black Male or a Hispanic Male, but we rarely see printed the man in question is a “White male.”
Ever notice how when there’s a fight in the NBA, mostly Black, it’s often referred to as thuggish? If you need an example, cite: Denver Nuggets & Kenyon Martin vrs. Mark Cuban. Whereas hockey, overwhelmingly Whites, actually throw punches at each other on a frequent basis, bloodying each other and it’s often just chalked up as “part of the game” or “good competitive spirit” or “hard-nosed”?
This article is about 10 years old, but I don’t think much has changed in the media’s portrayal of Blacks. Give it a read, or look up any of the leading black authors like Ralph Wiley or even Clarence Page.
http://www.yale.edu/ypq/articles/oct99/oct99b.html
@NK
lol
To keep going, I think foreigners get a wide portrayal of images in the media, but most of them: 1) can’t understand Korean to watch the shows or read the news articles; or 2) dwell only on the negative media portrayals.
And whether the foreigners are willing to admit this or not, while the specific genre of English teachers might take somewhat of a beating in the mass media, what about White people in general? Haven’t most white men or women benefitted from being told they’re so “handsome” or so “beautiful” because the Koreans are undoubtedly associating Oceans 11 or Sex and the City with anyone with blonde hair and blue eyes, regardless of their actual looks? Can’t any White person owe their jobs teaching English, partly, because they’re…well, White?
As Brian from Jeollanam-do writes from time to time, some foreigners are qualified with TESOL or education backgrounds, but probably 3/4 foreigners have never taught in their lives before! And they “look” like a native speaker (any F4 visa holder can attest to the audacity of being told you’re not a “native” speaker while some dude from Russia apparently is).
Interesting. I have about the same amount of experience in reading about the ongoing Oppression Olympics taking place in the blogs of minorities in the U.S., such as your hero Phil Yu’s “Angry Asian Man”, “Racialicious”, the “Fighting 44s”, “Asia’s Finest (lol)” and other claptrap.
The difference is, because they are in the U.S. and target Americans, they have some relevance to me.
Whinging of English teachers in Korea (which is annoying, I agree) has fuck-all relevance to you.
Sometimes it’s not always the quality of the message… it’s the style… and on style points alone # 28 was pretty funny.
t_song:”Haven’t most white men or women benefitted from being told they’re so “handsome” or so “beautiful” ”
Interesting double standard. If a white person says this of Asians, he is immediately pounced upon as a perverted Yellow Fever oppressor, but a Westerner should be grateful if the shoe is on the other foot.
WangKon9: “Sometimes it’s not always the quality of the message… it’s the style… and on style points alone # 28 was pretty funny.”
Yes, but just imagine if a white had responded in this manner conerning the rape of an Asian woman. Of course, that would be rather unlikely.
t_song:”This article is about 10 years old, but I don’t think much has changed in the media’s portrayal of Blacks. Give it a read, or look up any of the leading black authors like Ralph Wiley or even Clarence Page.”
Yeah, I’ll have to agree that it’s pretty outdated. But the value of such articles was that they did make a marked difference in the U.S., which would have to happen for Korea to turn this corner too.
“Whinging of English teachers in Korea (which is annoying, I agree) has fuck-all relevance to you.”
Whining, I take it? That’s NK’s strawman. It’s much easier to belittle a wrong than to address it.
The fallacy here is that the issue is not the whining expat, but the maturity of the Korean national. If Korea is sincerely interested in bettering itself, improving its “image,” becoming a seonjin gook, etc. then it will drop the pretense and denial. That is Korea’s choice alone to make and to be realistic, the foreigners really couldn’t care less.
“Why is it in any type of crime story, the suspected male is a Black Male or a Hispanic Male, but we rarely see printed the man in question is a “White male.””
Because a lot of people in the news media start out waiting tables.
@Mizar
You didn’t address any of my questions to you–and if you think there’s been progress in the last 10 years with how Blacks are portrayed in the media, I would challenge you to ask one of your Black friends (if you have one) and ask them on their thoughts. Maybe there has been minimal progress, but the overall representation is still weak.
Again, my questions to you:
How should the media present things differently? What does an “analogous heartfelt soul searching” actually look like?
t_song:“Why is it in any type of crime story, the suspected male is a Black Male or a Hispanic Male, but we rarely see printed the man in question is a “White male.””
No, those perpetrators are identified as “caucasian male.”
what is media?
“Maybe there has been minimal progress, but the overall representation is still weak.”
Support that assertion, and you may have the rudiments of an argument.
There’s a homework assignment for you.
While you’re at it, you might want to address that the #1 box office star is African American and explore the cact that leading African American actors are overwhelmiongly portrayed in a positive light. You may want to include news commentators, politicians, musical entertainers and other such prominent media figures in your analysis.
Break down what percentage of African Americans in film and television are portrayed in a positive light. If you find that a disproportionate number of them are portrayed in a positive light, you might contrast that to the statistics from the era of the 1970s, during the time of the urban crime wave in US cities. I’ve heard that back then a black man couldn’t even be elected to the worst position in the land, president, that is.
t_song:
The fact that you don’t know many foreigners who are “jiving with Korean culture” to me indicates that either you running with the wrong circles (try going out somewhere other than Itaewon), or you’ve been far more influenced by Korean media than you realize. You do live in Korea right now, yes? Because I can’t imagine someone making such an offensive blanket generalization about people you have no contact with.
How would I like foreigners treated in the media? Ideally, I wish they weren’t. Then maybe Koreans could make up their mind about me based on me, and not a rumor they read on Naver that foreigners are manufacturing perfume from the tears of broken-hearted Korean women.
As it stands now, the best shake foreigners seem to get is as clowns. This would be the “fun-loving” shows that you made reference to. It’s okay to have us on TV, as long as we can jerk around like spastic monkeys (or if we are women who like Korean guys, but that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms). At the moment, this is the best possible portrayal a foreigner could hope for.
At the opposite end, we have the regular, obligatory articles about drug abuse, sexual misconduct, and under-qualification. Of the dozens of foreigners I know who volunteer at orphanages, I have only ever seen one article about: it was written by a foreigner. I once took part in a riverside environmental clean-up that involved almost exclusively foreigners. When we contacted the press about the event, they told us it wasn’t newsworthy.
I’ll wind this up with something you wrote that deeply disturbs me: “Foreigners (ETs plus GIs) complain they are portrayed as guys who prey on Korean women. Well, how many foreign guys in fact DO date Korean women?” Do you see the difference between those two sentences? This illustrates the whole problem, right there. That I walk down the street with my 한국 여친 and there’s an immediate connection to sexual predators. And you wonder why I’m upset?
What does heartfelt soul-searching look like?
In the West, it looks like this: PC
…which simply means stopping to ask yourself some basic questions about respect, humanity, empathy, etc. before making any portrayal of anyone. It is often taken too far, of course, but every PC language tag broadcasts the speaker’s intention to empathize. And it came about as the result of decades of heartfelt soul-searching at a cultural/societal level.
t_song spewed:
So, if a foreign guy DOES date Korean women, he preys on them???
Wow. Just … wow.
@hard
Media=newspapers, Internet, TV news, TV shows
@Mizar
http://racerelations.about.com/od/stereotypesmentalmodels/a/blackimage.htm
http://www.tvguide.com/top-tv-shows
How many of those TV shows feature prominently black actors–other than as the token “cool” guy, or the “screaming” single Mom victim? Other than The Wire and a few niche channels like BET and the WB, where are the shows with black lead roles that don’t portray them as athletes, entertainers or dopes? Why in New York is it possible to almost never see a black face in Sex and the City, Friends, Seinfeld? The O.C.? 90210? Grey’s Anatomy? Lost(aren’t there more Koreans on that show than black members?)?
That you can qualify the current media representation of blacks as progress simply because they’re portrayed in a “positive” light–instead of what? In shackles being whipped by white slave owners? Instead of any black Comedian film where 1 out of 3 times they must dress up like a woman? (look up Dave Chappelle on Inside the Actors Studio on You Tube). There is only progress in the context that blacks are better portrayed now than before. But that still amounts to a very unrepresentative view–most of the Black faces broadcast to most of America today are comedians, athletes and singers.
It’s too bad there’s a dearth of black commenters.
@Gran
Thanks for the response, and an interesting solution: eradicate foreigners from the media.
The sentences you quoted from me, I will admit there is some perhaps shamefully poor logic. Preying on Korean women at bars and clubs in Hongdae, trying to get them in love motels or take off their shirts is — you’re right — much different than an actual relationship, but that stereotype exists because it’s based on reality by your less-altruistic ET and GI brethren.
But someone can back me up here, but as I know, when Koreans see a white male with a korean female walking down the straight, very few people are looking at the dude (as much as you’d like to believe).
@dog
Read above. I had to wrap up the comment you sourced pretty quickly and I flubbed it as constructed. I don’t believe that statement is true. I’ll admit when I’m wrong. It happens.
Korean women have no say in who they choose to marry
then
Korean women who decide they have a choice are often not suitable
then
If a Korean woman chooses to marry a foreigner, well, it’s okay
then
Korean women blah blah blah
then
Bring on the Jews stage right and the Koreans stage left.
t_song:
I know. The comments and stares are more often directed at her, not me. This does not make it any less upsetting, or any less wrong. In some ways, perhaps more so.
T_song,
Can you not what is wrong with the thoughts going on in your head? You seem to think that foreigners (white males) dating Korean women in Korea is predatory. In a country that boasts one million non-korean residents to 40 million Korean, what do you think the odds are in favour anyone dating? A Korean woman or a non-Korean?
Men are predatory, not foreign men, men in general. These sex motels you speak of were here before the influx of English teachers and they are not just around military bases. It is Korean men and Korean women who primarily use these establishments.
The problem here, as has been pointed out, isn’t that something disagreeable is happening. It is that it is someone who is different to you doing it. Our problem is the disproportionate relevance given to these otherwise minor indiscretions by Korean media.
As Mizar has told you, when you have one of these thoughts, challenge yourself. Ask what is behind it. Is it prejudice, jealousy, resentment, disappointment or fear? The advances in cultural/ racial/ sexual relationships that have come about in Western culture are largely due to critical analysis of ones own preconceptions or cultural positions.
Can you not SEE what is wrong
also I think neither side won. Dokdoisours had the juicy parts of his letter edited out. But the KT were still moronic enough to publish it. I wonder if it was edited for word count or content?
Though I do like the idea of people trying to get the most ridiculous letters printed, just so they eventually start paying attention and exert some editorial control. Perhaps people should try some other topics, not just foreigners gone wild and Dokdo. aso signing off with an American pop culture reference does not make the satire any better, it juct means that the person editing it is from a different generation or has not grown up in the west.
The media first emerged as (usually) illegal pamphletts that were distributed to challenge social inequalities and educate the population of what was being done to them by the government. Now it is about profits, so it has become about sensationalism, not about quality content. Unfortunately as the mode of revenue switches from papers sold to hits I think that the quality and purpose of the media will be further diluted.
This is clearly not isolated to Korea, although some might argue it has been accellerated and that the power of Naver and Daum referencing over real journalism has given the rest of the world an idea of where it is headed.
they read on Naver that foreigners are manufacturing perfume from the tears of broken-hearted Korean women
Dammit, gran… shut UP! I haven’t patented the formula yet.
@ink
You bring up some excellent points.
Yes, I’m looking for some type of enlightenment in this area, while at the same time knowing that every ex-pat blog or Dave’s ESL-esque message board has long tackled the same mother f’ing issue, time and time and time again. You ask me whether my thoughts are prejudice, jealousy, resentment, disappointment or fear, and I’d toss it back at you the same way.
This whole topic of foreigner representation in the media is interesting. Please allow me to summarize my main points, pertaining to foreigner representation in the media, one more time. And it’s very interesting that you went straight for points of mine that you did.
1) How would a more fair and balanced foreigner media representation look like? In other words, if you were granted the Managing Editor position at Chosun Ilbo (both English and Korean editions) or the PD at MBC, what would YOU choose to broadcast?
My main points here are that foreigners are somewhat broadly represented in the media, but they choose to focus on the most sensationalist stories. I remember hearing on the radio of some great things in the foreigner community: an improve comedy group, foreigners taking traditional Korean drumming classes, the foreigner effort to raise money for that English teacher who died from his house burning down.
2) Please don’t dwell on the point that foreign men who date Korean women are “preying.” I already tried to excuse myself for that, and I don’t believe that–I did, however, type that originally and it was a lapse in proofreading. If you’re offended — I would be slightly should the tables be turned — I apologize, but it’s not my true belief.
That said, that fleck of the stereotype: where does it come from? It’s born from the GIs, dating back even to the Korean War. It’s born from, yes, your own English teaching brethren taking Sel-Ka’s of their wild nights out at Hongdae or Itaewon (I will admit that those types of guys do not represent a vast majority of foreigners, as I think many White guys know they’re being watched and take it easy). So while it may not be true of 75% of foreigners, it does represent a considerable percentage. It seems like every English-speaking Korean female I knew had some type of story of their night at a designated “foreigner” bar, whether it’s deadsmack in Itaewon like Gecko’s, or a bastion of Western-ness in a sea of Koreans (like Monkey Beach in Apgu, which is so faux Western but incredibly, incredibly Korean IMO), where they were treated like a co-ed in New Orleans during Mardi Gras.
To OK this by saying “boys will be boys” essentially is a mentality I disagree with.
If anything, I feel that white males — mostly — feel like they want Koreans to all bow and smile in acceptance of them should they date a Korean woman. As NetKim once put it, many foreign men believe they become experts on Korea — and to the extent that they know more than the FOFFs (fresh off the free flight) who just came from the West, speak perfect English and still wear Western-ized clothes (and not the newest on-sale item from Giordano’s) this might be true, that those foreigners know more than their other foreigner friends–simply because they are dating Korean women. You don’t get a phd in Korean studies, or get a “LET ME GET BE ACCEPTED BY ALL KOREANS” card by sleeping with a Korean. Or dating one. Or sending back and forth cute, girlish-sounding moonja’s (내 한국여친…어디야??ㅋㅋㅋ ^-^ㅎㅎ). This is what I don’t understand about the white male, with some insecurities about this lack of community approval: What do you want? And in what forms?
3) My last point is there are other shows that represent foreigners in a different light. Discounting all of the Western movies and dramas that Koreans watch (this IS part of mass media), there still is a fair amount of variety in the foreigners in Korea today.
Is it true there is sensationalist news about foreigners in Korea? Yes. Is it fair? No. Do Koreans also report news about other Koreans in a similar, sensationalist way? Yes. Is that fair? No.
Is it true that many English teachers hold no more than a four-year degree before coming out here? Yes. But do some qualify? Yes. Is it true that some foreigners do drugs–and are caught? Yes. Is it true that Koreans — a country obsessed with English — hold English teachers, and their jobs, in a much higher position, due to how much they f’ing pay to go to hagwons and how important they perceive English to be? Is it fair then, to expect better conduct out of them? Yes.
From Paragraph 2, let me add something, as I sort of jumped out of the gates and into the body of the message too early. It was a bit of message pre-ejaculation. (that’s what she said, zing!)
Ok, I’m operating with the hypothesis that the blogosphere is populated with a lot of complainers. People complain. People in strange environments complain. People in familiar environments complain, too. I complain.
But I am genuinely interested in how foreigners want to see themselves portrayed in the media. I studied mass communications in college, and my favorite topics were the intersection of race and the media. And how the media can create false images (like one beef I have with most media about Asian Americans is that we’re all smart and are concert pianists. I never read about AA’s who weren’t 1550+ SAT kids, but Lord did I read plenty of stories about kids from the suburbs overcoming all types of drug and alcohol problems, or reading a success story of other White people who weren’t Ivy League grads).
So I am not some type of racist gyopo, which I think the intellectually light would just dismissively categorize me as.
Listen, jackoff, you made a racist comment based on a racist thought you could not have expressed any other way.
Don’t call me “intellectually light”, you pretentious twit.
Where you are being intellectually dishonest here, is that you do not compare it to Korean men doing the same things with Korean women.
If you are actually interested in this subject, you should be asking why Koreans (including the Korean media) are so quick to stereotype non-Koreans, while giving their co-ethnics a pass.
You are the intellectual lightweight, based on many moronic comments you’ve made.
And aren’t you the one who’s prejudiced against “hwagyo”?
You seem to think that English teachers somehow make more money than your average Korean college grad. I’m not and have never been an English teacher, but from everything I read, most make between 2.0-2.5 million won a month.
Now, I do know from my own experience that that is not a fortune, and is not better than what college grad Koreans can expect to earn.
I also expect better conduct from kyopos, who were given an opportunity to immigrate to a U.S. and make better lives for themselves than they could in Korea. Yet all I seem to get is smug arrogance, condescension, mass shootings, and lip.
@dog
sorry for above–forgot I had a blockquote going….
‘Expats”kyopos’,’ immigrate”relocate’,’ Korea”US’ , take out ‘mass shootings’, and you’ll be staring in the mirror, for saying what you just said.
Also, that ‘prey’ word that t_song used that has everyone going “wow”
-he said that the expats complain that they are portrayed
as guys who prey on them..
How did this turn into “you guys are preying on Korean women”?
On a separate issue, I want to know why 90 percent of the women advertised on the Japundit Personal homepage are Chinese (8 percent Japanese and 2 percent Korean)…
@dog
Consider the per-hour salary of that 2.0 to 2.5 million and consider that those numbers are normally take-home earnings–which means the free housing the hagwon pays for is NOT included.
Foreign teachers work on average 30 hours a week (some more, some less). That’s only 2/3 of the average Korean works.
And this?
I’m not looking for community approval. I’m not looking for anything. I would be ecstatically happy if I was simply left the fuck alone to live my life here, whether I was dating a local or not.
Yuna,
T_song said the media portrays, but then he made the statement “Well, how many foreign guys in fact DO date Korean women?” The proximity and follow on from the comments indicates that the protrayal is justified by the action that”many foreign guys DO date Korean women.” That is why his use of preying was met with hostility. If he stood by this message I would be dissappointed, but he has admitted it is poorly worded and has in some way retracted the comment.
As for your other comments, if I have time I will address them. But can I ask you if you have been reading many blogs like Dave’s ESL? I would like to remind you that what you read there is not representative of the expat community or even of the individual posters. It is well known that anonymity turns normally quite personable individual into ranting luntics. The same people that you read a comment that could turn your stomach you could meet the next day and have a perfectly reasonable conversation with. It is a weak proof, but see the comments section on youtube, remember the hordes of netizens on issues affecting Korea, China, Japan. If you let the ettiquette of anonymous fools on the internet colour your opinion it will always be negative.
For example I had a preconceived idea of American servicemen in Korea. From Australian media and my slight liberal leaning and view of the Bush administration. I then went to Korea and had these preconceptions reinforced by the surrounding media and other peoples opinions of America. I ended up spending sometime on the Yongsan base with servicemen playing a card game. It blew my mind how wrong I could be.
I am not sure which thoughts of mine you are asking are prejudiced etc, I don’t think I have given myself a chance yet to show my prejudices. I like to keep them close to my chest as i am not very proud of them. Unless if you are talking about my prejudice against the Korean Media, especially KT and KH and other English press that I can understand. While I don’t particularly respect any media institution currently, I have less respect for Korean media. Partly it is out of fear, because they seem to be very powerful in swaying popular opinion, see Mad cow hysteria. Being non-Korean if there was a backlash for some reason or another there is more to be concrened about than if I was less visible. But that said maybe there is something in the Korean media such as Mediawatch in Australia or the daily show in the US that I am unable to comprehend.
Sorry T_song, I have more to write but it is 2 am in the morning and I have to study for some huge exams. I will try to answer more tomorrow.
Man I am sloppy, the second paragraph down is directed to T_song
Hey good luck for your exam, I wasn’t accusing you of being prejudiced, I just noted with the word “prey” that if I were t-song’s lawyer, I would just pick up on that point. However, what dogbertt’d written is another story.
I might have read Dave’s ESL once. I don’t remember anything though.
I do, now that you remind me, remember reading an atrocious thing written by an ESL guy somewhere who said something about how he likes his Korean bitches but prefers them not to be able to speak English & he prefers the kind who wears 1000 won panties from Dongdaemun market, rather than the uppity Kyopo bitches or something of the sort.. I remember finding it hilarious at the time.
My only impression has been formed by the commenters here on this blog. I would feel sorry for the ESL teachers if I thought them as any of my friends from any of the English speaking countries I’d lived in had come to pay off their student debt etc. because I can imagine it would be a harsh environment for them without any connection to the country..
Yuna,
heh, Only the first paragraph was defending why I was hostile to T_songs statement. The rest was for T_song, and it was a rambling mess.
@inkev
Yes, I totally am wanting to revoke the “predatory” and “dating” link. I don’t stand by that at all.,
Anywho, somehow people paint me as this gyopo who has never been back to the Motherland, and that I am clueless because as of May 16 I do not live in the ROK. So, therefore, I am out of touch and outdated in my knowledge of Korea on the frontlines.
That’s insulting to me. Not only did I visit about half a dozen times in my youth and get updates from relatives via e-mails and occasional phone calls during that time, but I also lived in Seoul from 2005 to 2008.
And I wasn’t one of those gyopos who hung out with other gyopos and Koreans. I have plenty of direct experience of dealing with non-Korean foreigners in Seoul. I got many insights into how many foreigners think, in all walks of life, including the bar scene, as I was a translator at a many of 술집. I’ve been involved with the approaches (hey can you tell her, “Hey you’re pretty–want to drink with us?” and the actual meetings (공무원은 영어로 뭘라고 그랬지? sorry if my korean is bad). Those foreigners –put another way, my FRIENDS — weren’t predatory at all, but I got quite the honest viewpoint and their true 마음 toward Koreans from them. So I sort of can understand this very awkward balancing act many foreigner males have, not wanting to associate themselves with the negative stereotypes that in fact do occur (they might admit: well, yah, THAT happens with other foreigners but I don’t act that way) yet while still being, well, dudes. With the high percentage of Koreans and low percentage of foreigners, the odds are you will date a Korean girl, whether you’re Korean, Japanese, gyopo, White, Black, gay, lesbian whatever.
The intersection of many White males for the first time encountering their minority status is also fascinating, as a sort of armchair sociologist. To talk about this so distantly and scientifically is a tad insensitive, but these blogs offer an insight into the societal growing pains.
That’s where the expat blogs add some insight — yes, I take the blog posts and even the comments with seven big spoonfulls (not a grain) of salt — to understanding the foreigner community. As for Dave’s ESL, there are certain people hiding behind online identities, but I had severeal friends from Itaewon who stood by Dave’s as an accurate portrayal of the ACTUAL foreigner community. That representation may not be what foreigners might like to THINK the foreigner community should be, but I think it is a somewhat a frighteningly honest potrait.
Oh, scratch date a Korean girl … if you’re gay, I don’t think you would date a Korean girl. Just replace Korean girl with Korean.
“foreigner males”
“foreigner community”
That you lived in Seoul for three years recently explains your use of Konglish.
Dave’s cannot possibly be an accurate representation of the foreign community because a majority of foreign nationals are not from Western countries. I am not parsing words here. Non-Western foreigners seem to be an invisible majority not only among Western expatriates and former expatriates but also among hyphenated and unhyphenated Koreans.
ink:”As Mizar has told you, when you have one of these thoughts, challenge yourself. Ask what is behind it. Is it prejudice, jealousy, resentment, disappointment or fear? The advances in cultural/ racial/ sexual relationships that have come about in Western culture are largely due to critical analysis of ones own preconceptions or cultural positions.”
Let’s just spell out the obvious. The problem these people have with the white man is envy. The false charges of racism, yellow fever, predation, arogance, supremecism, etc are no more than sour grapes.
The white man controls most of the world’s resources, and that just doesn’t seem fair. So the envy-stricken rationalizes it as follows: “It’s unfair that the white man has everything we want, so it must have been obtained dishonestly. He must be arrogant and racist”
Seeing that the white man is really not racist and intermarries with women they want exclusive access to, this is rationalized as follows:
“It’s so unfair that the white man has everything we want, and now wants our woman too! It must be something incidious. It must be some kind of “fetish”. He’s a pervert. ”
As we see on this blog it even manifests a penis envy. Although I haven’t seen a single white guy mention the size of his penis, it has been mentioned upteen times by wjk and NK.
It’s sad.
That would be what Sonagi and I might suffer from. That phrase has naught to do with the size.
Speak for yourself, Sista. Penises are like grandchildren. They’re fun to play with for awhile, but when they get cranky, send ‘em off with a good-bye kiss.
t_song, that was a pretty weak defence of your thesis that black americans are portrayed in a negative light. Arguing that the top rated shows do not have a completely African American cast is an absurd logical fallacy. Considering that African Americans constitute some 13% of the population, their influence is disproportionate to their number.
As for your ridiculous statement “There is only progress in the context that blacks are better portrayed now than before. But that still amounts to a very unrepresentative view–most of the Black faces broadcast to most of America today are comedians, athletes and singers.”
By the same token, most of the white faces broadcast are also professional entertainers. The real question is how close to 13% of the faces broadcast are black. And how many tremendously influential African Americans there are today.
Finally, I did not state that the portrayal of blacks “has improved over the last 10 years.” The negative portrayals in fact dropped off some 30 years ago. Think back to the Huxtibles. But just compare this to Korean news caricatures that still portray blacks in the most overtly racist ways with huge white lips and even bones in their noses – in 2009!
However, regardless of the fact that Americans are regarded as having achieved an unprecedented level of tolerence and diversity (ask a European) they are still not content and strive for greater diversity and fairness . They are the first to admit that they are not perfect. That’s the point. You asked what the cure for Korean prejudice is and I responded people must want to change, as has happened in the US.
Rather than accept or reject that response, you chose to employ a falacious tu quoque (“you too”) argument. In so doing, you have forfeited your position.
Another strawman argument – you also attempted to impugn me by intimating that I have no black friends. My response is that since 1 in 10 Americans are black, it would be statistically impossible for me not to have black friends, acquaintances and coworkers, and I have had plenty. The fact that that would surprise you says more about you than me.
Today, things have changed markedly. There is not the “black and white” contrast of the 1960s and 1970s. That is a tremendous accomplishment, but you’d have to be old enough to appreciate it of course, and your lack of maturity shows. As does your obsession with race.
Those whites who dare date a Korean woman do not deserve to be labled preditors or fetishists or colonialists except in the mind of a certain type of individual. Are you one of those?
t_song:”If anything, I feel that white males — mostly — feel like they want Koreans to all bow and smile in acceptance of them should they date a Korean woman.”
No, they simply hope that Koreans will overlook race as they have, but they certainly don’t expect it.
Ironically, intermarriage, and inter-dating has always been one of the primary ways of bringing foreign acceptance and embrace of the culture, which is something Koreans desperately seek. Look to any of the long-term foreign residents who is valued in Korea, and you will find that the majority of them have some “skin” in the game. That’s only natural.
If I were a white male dating a Korean woman, I would hope for acceptance, wouldn’t you?
Sonagi:”Speak for yourself, Sista. Penises are like grandchildren. They’re fun to play with for awhile, but when they get cranky, send ‘em off with a good-bye kiss.”
Very well, make it a long one, then.
Mizar5, you don’t have a penis.
I offered straight up to examine in person your fake son, your fake son’s black girlfriend, your fake self, and your fake wife.
This, in risking my anonymity.
and Mizar just acted like he was either
1/ retarded
2/ retarded or
3/ retarded
and pretended I was his fan.
F
U
C
K
Y
O
U
you know, movies like Australia aren’t made based on pure fiction or a charitable mea culpa spirit from the white man. Yet, it’s another mumbo jumbo wishy washy attempt of the white man to stand on some pedestal.
Native Americans in the US have a 50% unemployment rate in their Indian Reservations.
That’s fucking unbelievable.
Thank you, wjk. That was a pretty telling admission, my willing sock puppet.
NO! Long penises scare the shit out of me. I’ve never given birth, so my netherregion is not so accomodating to an oversized load. Like Goldilocks and the Three Bears, I prefer ones that are just right.
Well said, Mizar.
“No, they simply hope that Koreans will overlook race as they have, but they certainly don’t expect it.”
Hell no. Perhaps some Americans can make a case but in general…no. America is among the best in terms of different races having a chance at getting a job but there’s still a lot of discrimination against the darker skinned citizens, in fact just today a friend was taking a case on it with a major airliner. I’ve personally found that there isn’t much difference in how various races view ‘race’, any consistent differences across a certain group is simply sheep mentality.
Intermarriage/interdating isn’t too important I’d say, considering America’s history on that subject and its embrace of certain cultures. When jobs and positions of power are given (or perhaps taken) by minorities, their culture will willingly or not be ‘embraced’ eventually.
I’m actually curious as to who here thinks mizar is Korean though.
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