Taiwanese netizens, colonial toadies to the man, not only were pulling for Japan in yesterday’s World Baseball Classic matchup against Korea, but were using rather earthy language to do so, reports the Kookmin Ilbo.
As of 3:30pm yesterday, some 636 Taiwanese netizens posting on the real-time text broadcast of the game at Yahoo! Taiwan were rooting for Japan, as opposed to only 132 who were rooting for Korea. Which is to say, the Kookmin Ilbo notes, that Japan went into the game with the support of not only its own fans, but those of 23 million Taiwanese as well.
How did Korea ever win?
Some of the language was quite salty — one Taiwanese netizen said Korea was winning because they were “fueled by dog meat.”
I don’t know — maybe they were just trying to do their own version of Manchester United fans’ cheer for Park Ji-sung:
Park, Park, wherever you may be,
you eat dogs in your home country!
It could be worse, you could be a Scouse.
Eating rats in your council house!
Korea has been harassed consistently by the “anti-Korean jeering” of Taiwanese fans. In the final qualifiers of the Beijing Olympics, Taiwanese baseball fans brought to the game signs with openly hostile messages, such as “Dog Meat Country, Korea” and “Plastic Surgery, Let’s Do It in Korea.”
This time around, the cowardly Taiwanese fans didn’t directly jeer Korea, but they’ve devoted themselves to belittling Korea, claiming that Japan is the strongest baseball country in Asia, despite Korea entering the second round in two successive tournaments as Asia’s first-place nation.
The Kookmin Ilbo also reports that sports are aggravating emotions between Korean and Japanese netizens. No shit, I know, but when you have to read Korean netizens accusing Japan of lacking “sports manners,” you know irony is truly dead.
{ 103 comments… read them below or add one }
As far as I know, the anti-Korean feeling among Taiwanese probably stems from Korea’s discriminatory treatment and eventual expulsion of its Chinese community to Taiwan under Park in the 60s and 70s. Of course there was recognition of the PRC after that, but I’d bet there are still some old timers in Taiwan with bad feelings towards Korea. Kind of ironic, when you consider that Taiwan probably would not exist today as an autonomous entity without the Korean War, which brought the US commitment to defend the island.
^ Er.. no. It’s the young ones who are anti Korean. Taiwanese, themselves belonging to the Chinese ethnic sphere, believe Koreans are trying to steal Chinese history and culture. I’m surprised there are even 132 who cheered for Korea. And what is it about the Chinese (I’m not just talking about the Taiwanese) who make fun of Koreans eating dogs?
Japan’s post WWII development would have started much later if it wasn’t for the Korean War also. But does anyone remember that?
http://books.google.com/books?id=mVN_OTa_KCYC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=korean+war+japanese+industry&source=bl&ots=-yLLDaz9A5&sig=M_8DVMwbHdc4Oe56nB6h3ryLFmc&hl=en&ei=f3_BSfaDMpeOMrTniKUN&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result
“I’m surprised there are even 132 who cheered for Korea”
Obviously Dae Jang Geum fans…
#1,
You probably have a point there. I’ve had students who were born in Korea of Taiwanese parents. None of them could not get Korean citizenship.
In any case, sports nationalism is a tiresome exercise in idiocy.
Is Korea already a hub of plastic surgery tourism? If not, they can use my idea….
“It’s the young ones who are anti Korean. Taiwanese, themselves belonging to the Chinese ethnic sphere, believe Koreans are trying to steal Chinese history and culture.”
Kids these days, they believe everything they read on the internet. Imagine how the world would be in 40 years when kids will get all their information from the internet. I predict critical thinking will have become a faint memory.
“And what is it about the Chinese (I’m not just talking about the Taiwanese) who make fun of Koreans eating dogs?”
Yeah, and to think that Brits say Americans don’t get irony…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3433375.stm
#6,
I wonder how many Taiwanese come to Korea for cosmetic surgery. Again, these kids don’t get irony.
# 5,
Park Chung Hee did that because he didn’t want Korea to be Indonesia or the Philippines with a large Chinese merchant class controlling all commerce… not saying it was right or anything… just saying why it was done.
cm is on the money. Most Korea-related comments in Chinese internet forums are negative.
Jealousy much?
Rather than attacking a country (that is legally recognised) for its recent successes, Chinese Taipei netizens should figure out what’s wrong with their team and learn from their mistakes.
Also I have it on good note that the Chinese love their dogs and cats (and everything in between).
Also, another factor, Taiwanese resentment of Korea is fueled by what’s happening recently in the DRAM and the LCD industries. Taiwanese industries in those areas have been absolutely devastated by Korean competition.
Taiwanese have been trying to team up with Japanese companies for survival, but it’s doubtful they will succeed.
I’m not up to date on the young generation in China and Taiwan, and their feelings about Korea. I do know a Taiwanese in their 60s with surprisingly negative feelings towards Koreans, and it was partly related to the Korean treatment of their Chinese community. As I understand it, the younger generation in China didn’t appreciate the perceived arrogance of Koreans – the way Koreans in joint ventures on the mainland looked down on Chinese and Korean’s failure to appreciate Chinese culture. On the surface, neither of those factors would seem to apply to Taiwan. There are relatively fewer Korean firms setting up shop in Taiwan and Taiwan has carved out its own national identity distinct from China.
OK, Taiwanese could see themselves as economic competitors.. but that alone doesn’t seem enough to explain why Taiwanese root so strongly against the Korean team. Could it be Korea’s famous manners at work?
“Taiwan has carved out its own national identity distinct from China.”
So has Tibet, but that didn’t stop the Chinese…
Taiwanese and Chinese may fight over their political situation, like family fighting one another. But when they perceive outsiders threatening their family member (like in this imaginary conflict over Chinese history/culture with Korea), they’ll stick up for each other. Some of the serious false media stories on Koreans stealing Chinese historic figures were printed by the Taiwanese media last year. It incensed the entire Chinese on both sides of the sea.
“And what is it about the Chinese (I’m not just talking about the Taiwanese) who make fun of Koreans eating dogs?”
Maybe there’s some subtle nuance that’s being lost in translation here.
One thing I can think of is that Koreans associate eating boshintang with being good for one’s stamina. Perhaps Chinese eat dog simply because dog meat is tasty and they’re hungry (what’s with this “good for your stamina” nonsense?). If that is the case, the “irony”, or rather more precisely, the pot-kettle-black head-scratcher situation of a Taiwanese netizen saying that Korea was winning because they were “fueled by dog meat” makes more sense.
Just my speculation.
If that’s the case
I tend to see the basic framework this way: Taiwanese netizens hate Korea because they fawn and idolize Japan and, thus, adopt their idol country’s attitudes toward Koreans; it’s monkey-see, monkey-do Japanophilia. That’s the bias.
But of course there are some separate bits and pieces involved that may have reinforced the above bias. I recall reading something about little leaguers in Korea and how Taiwanese players there were treated unfairly or something. This was years ago.
If there is one thing you can always bank on here it’s that Koreans will always talk down about every other Asian country/nationality and then complain bitterly and scratch their heads asking “why?” when the reverse happens.
The dog eaters comment is truly hilarious though. I suppose the Koreans could always counter with “endangered species and tiger gall bladder eaters!” but it doesn’t have the same ring.
It all comes down to competition in my opinion. Taiwanese see Korea as a serious competitor in sports, economy, pop culture, etc. It’s not good to lose to a competitor who once you thought of as inferior. Japan is further up in the scale than Korea in Taiwanese hierarchy, so Taiwan doesn’t feel worthy yet to be compared with Japan, so they’re still at the stage where getting Japanese approval is important.
On the other hand, feelings by Koreans of Taiwanese are best described as apathy and ignorance. There are still many Koreans who mistake Taiwan with Thailand.
Eeesch, too much analysis on this site. Where’s the pay-back trash talk?
Isn’t 768 netizens watching the game way too many in a country that obviously isn’t a baseball country and got absolutely panned this year? At least the PRC has someone they can beat.
Korea enters international baseball tournaments to win. Why does Taiwan bother?
China’s national sports is baseball Euljin, what in the world are you talking about?
Sorry, I meant Taiwan, not China.
I’m not sure how much offense needs to be taken when insults come flying from Taiwan. We are talking about a mosquito sized sorry excuse for an island nation comprised of Neanderthal native tribes of a slave race that gladly bent over for Japanese occupation in WW2, and of sore losers of a Chinese civil war that they should have won, save for the fact that they were some of the most corrupt and inept fighters ever. These are mongrel morons that get really really offended when you “mistakenly” call them “Chinese,” when really, they are! Just because they were the loser half of a civil war, does not negate the related blood heritage. It would be as nonsensical as South Koreans claiming not to be Korean out of spite of the North. Not only are they losers, look at the size of nation they went from – All of mainland China, to Formosa Island. Lol And finally, Dogs? They are going to make an issue out of a dying, passe culinary delight? I’m not sure where they get off passing judgment as they munch down on their grasshoppers and eat their tiger penis soup. And BY THE WAY does anyone know about this Stinky Tofu they eat? I understand fermentation that goes on in Kimchee and DaenJang, but goodness Christ, these people soak tofu in rotten funk, then slightly fry it to eat it. It is worse than Durian, which those sick people also enjoy.
Taiwan = Losers. Literally.
#1, or maybe they are just disliked? Been to the Philippines recently? It’s not just limited to Koreans, though. Ask any hotelier about the Brits in Spain or the Balinese (or anyone else holidaying there) about Australians.
There you go Euljin, your payback trash talk.
“#1, or maybe they are just disliked? ”
You mean just like Americans who are disliked in far more countries?
The Man U. cheer for Jisung is brilliant. (If that’s how they root for their own, you can imagine the chants/jeers visiting players receive.)
Who cares about petty, childish NE Asian netizens? Same old, same old.
Could it have something to do with this?
Translation -
Or this:
Taiwanese holding up placards last year during a friendly baseball game between Korea and China. (I saw this report in the Korean press)
“Soy milk is Chinese invention”
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y120/staykool/taiwanbaseball2.jpg
“Expel Korean culture”
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/951/85157687tm6.jpg
Other placards held up by Taiwanese included:
“Get plastic surgery, get lost”
“Rip up and kill all the Kimchi bastards!”
“Dog eating Korea”
“We hate Koreans! They stole our culture and cheated in the game!”
Nationalism in East Asia is a complicated thing. It’s prevalent in every aspect, including sports. China-Korea-Japan-Taiwan relationship is defined on hate. History, and competition in economy and popular culture are what defines East Asia of today. Everyone hates each other, if they didn’t we wouldn’t call it east Asia.
That’s just crazy. Every team that enters a tournament should have the chance to win it. What a disgrace for the organizers.
Kind of amazing how popular Japan is in Taiwan. I remember this guy at Haitai who was exporting chocolate to Taiwan – except that they called it “Hello Kitty” chocolate and covered the box with Japanese writing to make it look as if it had been made in Japan to be able to sell in Taiwan.
They still have their General Governor’s building, it’s now Taiwan’s Presidential Palace! Kim Young Sam tore down the Korean version of course. They have Japan to thank for their separate identity, so I suppose that explains it.
Soy milk.. now that’s something to be proud of.
Maybe expats in Seoul should walk around with “Cars and Airplanes were Western inventions!”
#30, this is the first time I’ve ever heard about this. What was the official explanation from the Korean organizers? I’d like to read what they had to say and get their perspective before I can decide what to think of it, because the article you posted didn’t mention them.
“Soy milk.. now that’s something to be proud of. ”
That’s mild, compared to the accusations of Koreans stealing Mao Ze Tung. Marmot had that story here last year.
#25 “These are mongrel morons that get really really offended when you “mistakenly” call them “Chinese,” when really, they are!”
Koreans are not “pure-blooded”, the rest of the civilized world knows this, yet this myth continues amongst the peninsula. Being constantly invaded by outside forces means a great array of foreign genes have been introduced throughout history. This may be why Koreans are soo into believing they are pure blooded so to speak.
cm,
This one says 北京我们来了，meaning “Beijing, we have come!”. Nothing to do with expelling Korean culture.
It seems like a bizarre statement unless it is taken in context. Obviously they think that Koreans are trying to stake a claim on it, like cherry blossoms, judo, kendo, aikido, etc. Perhaps they are mistaken about Koreans trying to claim soy milk. But the reason it happens is that Koreans do it with other things. No one accuses Australians of “cultural theft”.
#38, you needn’t try to defend Chinese and some Japanese fabrications of Koreans stealing just about everything that’s Chinese.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/06/23/mao-zedong-was-korean/
Australia has nothing to do with being the part of East Asian dynamics, which I’ve already explained in #32.
Not only is it pathetic to brag about soy milk – it’s not as if the guy’s ‘country’, Taiwan, had invented it, or anything else of significant value.
Of course, shakuhachi, it doesn’t help when people like you get involved and champion right wing Japanese and Chinese fabrications like this:
Koreans allegedly claiming Confucius was Korean (the video was removed by the author possibly because it was an embarrassment for Japan), and other accusations like Koreans claiming Chinese medicine and Chinese writings.
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=420
The reason why Korea is running into problems with both China and Japan is this.
Korea has a quarrel with China regarding history of Koguryo and Mt.Baekdu (mt.Changbai in Chinese). Korea at the same time has quarrels with Japan regarding Dokto/Takeshima. It’s becoming a alliance of convenience for Japan and China to squeeze Korea, but at the same time, both China and Japan do not trust each other to say the least.
The right wing Japanese are using this to exploit Korea-China chasm, while Chinese are exploiting the Korea-Japan chasm. The Koreans can go either way.
Again, as a voice of reason, I would like to point out that NO Korean I have ever talked to would make such a stupid claim as the ones that the Chinese press (even MORE hate-mongering than the famous Korean press) feed their citizens.
If the Chinese and the Taiwanese need their own backlash from devouring all the jinbuhan storylines of Korean soap operas, let them have it.
As for Taiwan, it is acting like a teenager with an identity crisis, not quite getting anything right from years and years of copying Japan, it should just call itself Okinawa part deux.
The reason why East Asians ultimately do not get along with each other on a group – not an individual level, of course – is because each nationality intrinsically believes themselves to be superior to the rest.
At the same time, down deep, there is also a genuine insecurity with each nation’s avowed national (racial?) superiority.
Consequently, whatever the reasons, when the situations present themselves, there is a good chance one nationality is going to lay a heavy trip on another nationality – which, of course, will not be forgotten so that incident, too, can be used to justify the next opportune round of national nonsense.
Not that I would wish this, but perhaps East Asia needs a series of Asian wars, and like Europe, realize this nationalist crap is much more negative than positive.
Until then, expecting an Asian equivalent to the EU coming into being can only be wishful thinking.
cm,
I am not trying to defend anything. While there are some false rumours about Koreans trying to steal cultural inheritance, a lot of it is true. For example, if you were in China and someone mentioned to you “I saw that guy eating dog meat the other day”, you might be inclined to believe him. However, if in Australia and someone mentioned to you “I saw that guy eating dog meat the other day”, you would be rightly doubtful of it. In the case of Korea, false accusations of this sort are so believable because it has happened so often before.
An obvious example is Kumdo – which is just rebadged Kendo. Korea doesn’t have a native way of the sword. Koreans even go further than appropriating this Japanese martial art, and even insist they taught it to the Japanese. This is why someone can believe a rumour that Koreans invented soy milk (hell, they might be saying it for all I know!).
Even I can read that and I’m a complete tool.
He says, as he munches down on his pavlova.
o.O I was born in Taiwan and could swear that I saw a small cluster of dog meat restaurants in Taipei back in late 1970s. Sale of dog meat wasn’t banned in Taiwan until 2004, so it’s like pot calling the kettle black to point fingers.
Taiwanese target S. Korea as a primary economic competitor not necessarily based on statistical facts, but simply because SK’s income per capita is close enough for Taiwan to match against. In other words, China is too low and Japan is too high, so Korea fit nicely right in the middle.
With competition, comes spite and all the other ugly things that you find in people.
cm. In his defense, that website holds as much credibility as the National Enquirer. But who knows? Maybe Bill Clinton did have a foursome with an alien, bigfoot, and the Bat Boy in the White House while Hilary was filming it.
Koreans have not stolen cultural inheritance. You are starting to sound just like the Chinese who are accusing Koreans of stealing Confucius, soy milk, tofu, Mao Ze Dung, Sun Yet sen, Chinese writing, Danwoo Festival, and 350 other cultural items that Koreans are accused of stealing. Now I know you’re sore because Koreans nationalists are always going ape shit over Dokto, but really, it doesn’t justify any fabrications. A fabrication is a fabrication no matter where it comes from.
Go-paduk, they all came from China,
Kanji-Hanja Chinese scripts again,
Tea drinking – chado, where did tea arrive first in East-Asia?
The point is – the Japanese are good at doing is taking something that other countries might take for granted and making it into an excellent discipline which gather following outside Asia and impressing even the originators. Korea is not claiming kendo is Korean, neither is it claiming that paduk is uniquely Korean. When there is cross-cultural influences, it is good to hold onto some original or some unique features of that discipline in that particular region.
Well, we all know about current situation with Taiwan now. And what’s up with dog meat got to do with winning the baseball match? Aren’t Chinese also eat dog meat too? what about eating human fetus? Is that why Taiwan lost all 3 games to China, Korea and Japan? They should have eaten dog meats before the WBC 2009.
Shakuhachi, you might want to stop spreading misinformation. You’re just regurgitating things that are said in the Chinese and Japanese media. Can you point to any serious, primary Korean sources that back up what you say?
Notice you never actually hear any serious Korean sources claiming that Korea invented soy milk, hanja, kumdo etc. All you ever hear, repeated ad infinitum, are claims that Koreans claim these things, usually made by some whack job on the lunatic fringe like shakuhachi.
And btw, the Japanese imperial family IS descended from Koreans. That is a historical fact.
Eujin,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Neill
Always annoying when I see him referred to as an Australian. Mel Gibson, too, for that matter.
CM, I am not justifying fabrications. I also think that fabrications are totally indefensible. However, what I am saying is that there is a certain believeability to the fabrications – a kind of reverse boy cried wolf.
And seriously? Soy milk?
Get a life.
Tinyflowers,
http://www.kumdo.org/deahan_kumdo/d-kumdo1-4.php
There is a mainstream Korean source for you, in Korean. I always show Korean sources – it is just that Koreans like you always ignore it or justify it.
I remember seeing an Indian-made film which takes place during the British Raj. Two Indian aristocrats are playing chess. They are discussing the differences between British chess and Indian chess. What the Indians call the “Minister” is the Queen. The initial pawn move is one space forward instead of two. One man remarks with pride of the fact that the Indians invented chess. The other says, “we may have invented it but it is the Brits who have taken up the game.”
The Chinese have invented much throughout history. The Chinese knew the world was round even before Columbus. In fact, Columbus’s maps probably originated with the Arab world who in turn got it from the Chinese. So they have no need to feel insecure. If they are insecure, it is because they are woefully ignorant of their own proud heritage.
The Chinese have accomplished much but they also made many egregious mistakes. For example, the Ming Dynasty burned all of the records of admiral Zheng He’s maritime voyages in his vast treasure ships. The Chinese have had a bad habit of burning their books periodically. Not to mention that little goof they made about introducing Europeans to gunpowder.
Does anybody know the chinese proverb for eating all things under heaven with four legs except for tables. 食卓外天下全物食 maybe? I can’t type in korean or chinese on this computer so it is very slow going.
Isn’t Mel Gibson Jewish?
Shakuhachi,
Where does it claim that kendo is Korean? Or that Koreans taught it to the Japanese (your original claim in #44)? I don’t want to go too far off topic but kendo/kumdo simply means the way of the sword. The Korean Kumdo Association actually acknowledges that it was heavily influenced by modern Japanese kendo, it’s rules, equipment etc, hence the similarity.
“CM, I am not justifying fabrications.”
Then what is this, if you’re not justifying fabrications?
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=420
Isn’t this your blog? Your title says
“Now Confucius is Korean
Author: Matt // Category: Racist Industrial Complex, Scams, finger chopping wacky”
You’re taking a fabrication by a Japanese TV broadcast that Korea is stealing Confucius, and making it look like it’s true.
If that’s not endorsing fabrication, I don’t know what is.
What I don’t like is that this kind of flash mob rumor-monging could very easily fuel national sentiment for a war in the future, especially in the hands of an organization like the Chinese Communist Party or any other media entity that is adept at long-term propagandizing through the newer forms of media. Already, the more traditional forms of media (TV, newspapers) are losing popularity and even credibility to internet-related media. (there are no footnotes here for the sources I have had to read through too).
A sustained program of propagandizing, intent upon reducing the credibility and influence of a competitor — such as Korea — is very much a tool of certain well-known propaganda-loving Asian countries.
One could also consider such as online “gossip”, which is a valuable social tool for maintaining social solidarity, per one comment by David Sloan Wilson, a professor of biology and anthropology at the State University of New York at Binghamton,”:
and exclusivity which can be powerful and influencial in a larger online group.
The effectiveness of nosomo in getting Roh elected in Korea and the sophistication of the mad cow demos and the anti-”big three” newspaper drives demonstrated this locally and the steady, low-key, subversive anti-Korean campaign, that has been run by China, seems mainly precautionary on their part, so as to minimize the social influence of the “Korean Wave” and other influential aspects of Korean society upon China, but could easily be part of the kindling for any future real conflict.
“However, what I am saying is that there is a certain believeability to the fabrications”
In other words, you’re as gullible as Chinese netizens.
tinyflowers,
It is saying that Kumdo comes from Hwarang and has an ancient history, which it does not. It gives credit to Japanese martial arts only in the technical sense that Kendo somehow influenced Kumdo by providing some rules for it to follow, along with equipment. Kendo did not influence Kumdo. Kumdo did not exist – Kumdo is rebranded Kendo, and nothing else. There is no way of the sword native to Korea.
tinyflowers,
BTW, the only reason they give any credit to the Japanese way of the sword is because it is blantantly obvious to the casual observer that Kumdo is just Kendo with Korean pronunciation.
Dude, it’s just mentioning Hwarang as a demonstration that Koreans did like practicing swordsmanship. And it looks like the association is using the word 검도 in that paragraph as just that – swordsmanship. They state that 1. the colloquial Kumdo/Kendo format came from the Japanese, 2. Koreans started practicing it in 1896 when apparently it was offered to police officers for security reasons, 3. Koreans shouldn’t be put off by Kumdo for being Japanese because Koreans have a history of practicing swordsmanship anyway.
After all, it would be rather paradoxical if the Korean Kumdo Association actually claims that Kendo’s origin is Korean, considering it’s part of the International Kendo</b< Federation, and one of FIK’s vice-president is a Korean.
Shakuhachi, I’m not interested in the historical exaggerations of a self-promoting commercial entity. You claimed that Koreans “insist they taught [kendo] to the Japanese”. I asked you for a Korean source that actually claims this. You failed to do so. You also failed to come up with any mainstream Korean sources backing up any of your other claims.
“it is blantantly obvious to the casual observer that Kumdo is just Kendo with Korean pronunciation.”
I’m beginning to question your language ability shak. You think it’s a Korean pronunciation of kendo? Kumdo is a korean word literally meaning way of the sword. You’re reading way too much into the superficial similarity between the two words, which shouldn’t surprise anyone with a passing knowledge of either language since the two languages are closely related.
shakuhachi,
Kumdo most certainly didn’t come from Korea, but Japan first learned sword making and sword pay from Korea simply because Japan didn’t discover iron ore deposits in their own islands until the late 7th century AD.
Of course the Japanese took sword making to a whole new level…
tinyflowers,
Kumdo is just hanja (劍道) for the way of the sword. So it’s kind of a Chinese word.
Besides… the art of Kumdo has been well developed in Korea to a point where Koreans are routinely beating the Japanese in international competitions.
http://www.kendo-fik.org/english-page/english-page2/World-Kendo-Championships-IKF.htm
1st place in worlds in 2008…
2nd place in 2007…
Btw… the Brazilians are routinely beating the Japanese in Jujitsu…
Another bait that has enraged the Chinese on the internet is this Youtube video on the “Handan Chronicle” which was shown on KBS TV in 1999.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax9m90HBBBA
Japanese Youtubers translated the parts that they wanted to translate and put it up on the internet. This video has been viewed by millions of Chinese who take this video as solid proof that Koreans are stealing Chinese history. And it’s being passed around all throughout Chinese cyber space, causing big hate towards Koreans.
Unfortunately most Chinese will not be able know that all the clips of the videos were deliberately taken out of context. So out of context, that it makes it look like these Koreans really are crazy and are bent on stealing Chinese history.
Until you read the original KBS script that’s still up in the KBS site, and we can clearly see what was the intention of those Japanese who translated them.
Koreans and Japanese all descended from apes in Africa, except for the Christians that descended from Adam and Eve, and Shakuhachi which descended from Cronulla.
“I’m beginning to question your language ability shak. You think it’s a Korean pronunciation of kendo? ”
I don’t think he can read Korean (if he does, he’s not very good at it). The link that he posted himself states:
검도(劍道)라는 용어가 처음 사용된 때는 확실하지 않다. 다만 중국의 예문지(藝文志) 병기고(兵技攷)에 나오는 ‘검도삼십팔편(劍道三十八篇)’이라는 기록이 최초의 것으로 알려져 있다. 그리고 그 책의 ‘신ㆍ염ㆍ인ㆍ용(信廉仁勇)이 없이는 검(劍)을 논하지 말라’ 라는 기록을 참고해 보면 중국에서는 지금부터 약 2,500년전인 춘추전국시대에 이미 검도가 독특한 정신세계를 이룩하고 있음을 보여준다.
Yeah, it hints at China as the source of the word.
In other news, Cubans are getting their asses handed to them by Team Japan. Looks like it’s going to be another shut-out.
There should be an East Asian baseball league to rival MLB. It would make the Yankees – Red Sox rivalry look like a bunch of juiced up boy toys having a lover’s quarrel.
Why annoyed? Isn’t that a trait unique to angry nationalistic Koreans?
Every single Kiwi I met was always at pains to point out that Russell Crowe was actually a Kiwi, which made me question why — it led me to find out that he was actually raised in Australia, and was actually an Australian actor. Same could be said for Mel Gibson, he was born in NY but he has Australian heritage and he moved back and grew up in Australia. Would you consider Nicole Kidman not Australian because she was born in Hawaii?
I’m sure most Australians are pleased to hear Shakuhachi referred to as an Austrian.
I just noticed this, and it made me laugh.
A little more history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China-South_Korea_relations
@#28, CM,
You mean just like Americans who are disliked in far more countries?
Tickles me pink one of the resident Gyopos a, misses the inherent, self-deprecating humour and b, thinks that all weygook posters here are Americans.
As other commenters have pointed out, the placard reads “Beijing, we have come.” Positioned in front a very large Taiwanese flag, the message appears to be a pro-independence jab at mainland China.
I agree with dokdo at #1. At least for most of the second half of the last century, but probably since much earlier, the Chinese in Korea had been considered as unwanted guests in the country until the first left-wing government since the colonial era started issuing passports to the Chinese along with many others in the late 90s.
Don’t the Chinese claim that they invented chess(將棋). I wonder if there are angry Indian netizens cursing at the Chinese for trying steal their history.
The several paragraphs of information there strongly suggest that the origins are actually Korean. Why have several paragraphs trying establish that Korea had Kumdo before it was introduced by Japan? Why point out their excellent swords if there was no way of the sword? Every army had swords – by that standard any country can claim to have practiced it. They point out that the equipment of Kumdo is Japanese (a historical fact, they say). They also say that the Japanese can be proud that they turned Kumdo into a sport.
Anyway, if that link isn’t enough, I will find another one from one of the Kumdo feds.
Many cultures around the world invented various “general and pawns” type board game. We can only look at surviving archaeological records to date games like Liubo to 3,500 years ago in China, GeWu to Han Dynasty, “Elephant Chess” to Tang, etc. But all inventions are based on then-existing knowledge, and our ancestors did travel and trade a lot. So we don’t know if certain ideas or games were transmitted from one culture to another, and much has been lost to antiquity.
Western style chess is generally credited to India from 6th century, which transmitted to Persia, then to the Arabs, and to the Europeans. But we know the Indus valley civilization is ancient and their predecessors most likely had their board games too. They built very nice cities with heated public baths and air conditioned (air ducts) rooms 4600 years ago. Any civilization to that degree of sophistication probably had all kinds of games and entertainment.
To debate over who invented what with what little evidence our ancestors left behind, is pretty silly. It turns us into grave robbers, and in may cases the remains of our ancestors are placed into glass boxes for public viewing like some freak show. It’s really disrespectful to the dead. Also, people who like to brag about how “we built the great wall” or “we invented the internet” are either kids or losers who have had no accomplishment worth mentioning in his life, and had to look to his long-dead ancestors for something to be proud of.
@shakuhachi Korea -> Japan’ is root. Chinese and Korea’s record is more earler than Japan. so it is reasonable. Later, Japanese Kendo also influenced to Korea.
http://www.kumdo.org/deahan_kumdo/d-kumdo1-4.php
here is the source. they never says, it originated from korea.
Ninja invented by china. (荊軻)
Geisha is carbon copy of koreas kisaeng.
Japanese zen is copy of Chinese 禪.
Japanese go is copy of Chinese 围棋
Japanese food ramen invented by china.
Japanese Soy sauce invented by china.
karate was carbon copy of chinese Tang dynasty martial arts.
Japanese writing character kanji invented by china.
Japanese major religion is copy of Chinese buddhism.
Japanese Goverment system tenno is carbon copy of China dynasty wannabe.
japanese kimono is copy of Chinese hanfu.
japanese udon invented by china.
japanese gyoja invented by china.
japanese sushi derived from china.
Japanese Kendo derived from china.
Japanese Tea ceremony invented by china.
Japanese Bonsai derived from china.
Japanese Origami derived from china.
Japanese Mahjong derived from china.
… yes, i can find more…
Japanese spread falesed info to westerner, They just want Chinese and Other east asia culture are their own Japanese culture. it’s really funny.
Chinese still do not know Japan spread Chinese Zen(禪),Go(围棋), mahjong…etc… culture to Japanese name to westerner. Many westerner think bonsai,Zen,Go,mahjong, karate…etc… are known as Jap culture.
Japanese are real cultural thief.
@shakuhachi <- Japanese
Don’t believe Japanese claim about Korea. They fabricate Korean, and try to make Korean image as bad.
——-
Ugly Images of Asian Rivals Become Best Sellers in Japan — NYTimes
“Lacking confidence, they need a story of healing,” Mr. Yoshida said. “Even if we say that story is different from facts, it doesn’t mean anything to them.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/19/international/asia/19comics.html?ei=5090&en=b0d32e601cb39284&ex=1290056400&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all
Chinese encyclopedia source says, 劍道 Originated from China.
源于中国的剑术，在隋、唐时期传入日本,经日本人的研习修改,形 成独特的刀法技术,古时用来保家卫国、防御外敌和维护社会秩序, 现今才渐渐成为一项武术运动，改用竹刀、穿着护具对打。
#2. 在公元前473年，中国的吴被越所灭，吴的难民由山东半岛及东夷 诸岛国渡海逃亡到日本，同时并携带了青铜制的戈与剑等。再经二百多年后，中国进入生产铁器的秦汉时代，这些铁器也随同大陆与朝鲜 渡海过来的移民们，一块抵达日本。二世纪后半叶，耶马台国女王，遣使贡魏四次，获魏明帝赠绢、铜镜和大量的武器如铁矛、铁剑。
w w w . kumdo . org/deahan_kumdo/d-kumdo1-4 . php
here is the source. they never says, it originated from korea.
本國劍法 is our cultural heritage and its a oldest martial art of fencing. also, Chinese martial art of fencing is also element of Korean fencing…. Japanese developed martial art of fencing as a sports. (this mean is not kumdo originated from japan, it says, Kumdo originated from China, Korea. they says, Japanese developed as a “sports level”) early Japanese kendo root is a korea.
w w w . kumdo . org/deahan_kumdo/d-kumdo1-4 . php
Here is the translation.
은 현존하는 세계최고(最古) 의 것으로 또 다른 놀라움이자 자랑스러운 우리의 유산이기도 하다. 이와 함께 중국의 모원의(茅元儀)에 의해 전해진, 또한 고대검법의 정수로 현대검도의 모태가 되는 것이다. … 일본이 검도를 스포츠로 개발한 것은 그들의 자랑이요. 그 뿌리가 우리에게 있음은 우리의 긍지이다.
本國劍法 is our cultural heritage and its a oldest martial art of fencing. also, Chinese martial art of fencing is also element of Korean fencing…. Japanese developed martial art of fencing as a sports. (this mean is not kumdo originated from japan, it says, Kumdo originated from China, Korea. they says, Japanese developed as a “sports level”) early Japanese kendo root is a korea.’
Conclusion… this is more suitable expression, Korea Kumdo orginization officially state that… Kumdo is a Korean fencing, and its mixed with Chinese fecning elements. Japanese developed asian fecing as a sports. Korea adopted this Japanese style Kendo system…
Anyway, You Japanese can’t barking to China, right?
If Chinese says, “剣道 originated from China!”
Jap : … keep a silent…
If Korean says, “剣道 originated from Korea!”
Jap : #@#@#!#$@!!!!
If Korean and Chinese says, “剣道 originated from China!”
Jap : ……
It’s pretty interesting.
1. 劍道 name is not originated from Japan.
Earliest record is Chinese han Dynasty period.
Cleary, China have More earliest record .
2. “XX~道” and “Dojo” term are not originated from Japan. it’s is a buddihsm term. and Korea, China buddihsm culture are more earlier than Japan.
3. Korea kumdo org & Chinese encylopedia says, “劍道 originated from China”.
China have more earliest record than Japan.
Some Japanese fabricate that Koreab claim Chinese inventions origin.
But, this is not true.
According to Korea major encylopedia, Doosan enecyclopedia, (w w w . encyber . com)
Hanji invented by China.
Chinese 4 inventions invented by China.
99.9999% Korean never says, Soy sauce invented in Korea.
This is no dispute fact at all.
However, Korea major encylopedia says, “Kendo/Kumdo originated from China”.
So, We don’t need beleive Japanese hoax for defame korean image.
Jo Koy on Orange Chicken on the Tonight Show by Jay Leno
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=42907966
Bump…
Does anybody know the chinese proverb for eating all things under heaven with four legs except for tables. 食卓外天下全物食 maybe? I can’t type in korean or chinese on this computer so it is very slow going.
I’m sure there is somebody here with a better knowledge of Chinese characters than me that can help with this question. Sonagi, ddr,
Baduk,Shakuhachi?japanese says,
Jesus was Japanese.
http://www.brooklynkitchen.net/2006/09/jesus-was-japanese-rice-farmer.html
“According to the local legend, Christ first came to Japan, aged 21, during the reign of the 11th emperor, Suinin, and landed at the port of Hashidate on the Japan Sea coast. Apparently, he settled in Etchu province where, under the tutelage of a great master, he studied Japanese language, literature and various other subjects. The Legend of Daitenku Taro Jurai (Daitenku Taro Jurai was the name Christ is said to have later taken) claims that at the end of his 11-year stay, Christ returned to Judea, aged 33, where he taught about the “sacred land” of Japan. But, unfortunately, “Christ’s teachings about Japan were considered too radical,” and he was condemned to death.”
http://metropolis.co.jp/tokyotravel/tokyojapantravel/3523/tokyojapantravelinc.htm
Genghis khan was a Japanese?
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2001/07/16/010716fa_fact_hessler
“According to Japanese folklore, Mongolia’s greatest historical figure, Genghis Khan, was a Japanese warrior who fled to Mongolia in the late thirteenth century.”
http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Gaien/7211/kudos10/yositune.html
Almost Every Japanese believe that Genghis Khan and a Japanese Yo$hitsune were the same person.
According to japanese logic, Japanese claim that all over the world great thing belong to their.
Everybody make one country image as bad by some uncommon sense claim.
@doe
Enjoy your imminent ban. You Chinese really have a way of making lots of friends on the internet.
I owe wjk an apology. There was a distinct poetic quality to his haiku-like rambling, unlike the straight rambling written up there.
I don’t see why Doe will be banned. I skip Doe’s posts (no offense intended Doe) and go on to the next one. I can’t see the problem.
If Doe is Chinese maybe Doe can answer my question prior to purported imminent banning.
Given the virulent pro-Japanese anti Korean tripe that is too common on this blog, a little bit of balance is fine. But I’m just a commenter, so I guess this decision is in the hands of the blogmaster, who sadly is married.
Sonagi, if you can hear me above the deafening din, is it not possible that it is something more innocent than that? I was interpreting it as meaning something like “Beijing here we come” as in, “our team has just qualified for the baseball tournament at the 2008 Beijing Olympics and that is a good thing”?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics_-_Qualification#Final_Qualifying_Tournament
Yes, I was aware of that cm. I was just trying to engage in a bit of good-natured trash talking, which is completely redundant now given the direction this thread has turned. Don’t you just love the internet?
#94 colontos, why should doe be banned?
He backs up his claims with links and argues intelligently.
Jo Koy is funny as hell. But, notice, his Asian English accent is actually an impersonation of Koreans and not Chinese.
Anyway, this thread reminds me of why I dislike shakuhachi. I don’t dislike gbevers. one guy many associate with shak. I can sympathize with g’s obsessive need to write about a topic he knows about. But shakuhachi is different. In short, he’s a leper and uses a lot of syllogisms to try to hide how much of a repugnant racist he really is. In response, shak would say something disingenuous like “How can I be racist against Koreans, when I love Japanese?” Of course, if asked whether he thought Japanese and the Koreans were the same people, he would certainly deny it.
CM, I can read just fine. If it is still unclear to you, see what Doe wrote, and then what I wrote.
Doe:
Me:
Meaning that Japan’s contribution was merely some of the equipment and sports rules. I emphise again, Korea had no way of the sword, and didn’t even hold swordplay in high regard.
Kendo has nothing to do with elements of Korean history at all.
I love how gullible Japanophiles believe that Japan was the end all and be all of swordsmanship. The uniquely Japanese fetishizing of swords and the bushido spirit and all that crap. They just eat that stuff up.
Fact is, Korea was making swords before Japan even had rice cultivation, much less advanced metallurgy. Both technologies were introduced to Japan via the Korean peninsula. Maybe this is where shak got confused about Koreans claiming to have taught the Japanese kendo? Or maybe he’s still confused about the definition of kumdo/kendo?
For the would be otaku easily impressed by fancy blades, maybe this will be more to his liking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven-Branched_Sword
Looks like it would be pretty useless in battle, but it sure looks cool, and has some very interesting inscriptions.
Btw, we got off on a tangent all because of shak’s claim that Koreans were claiming Kendo was Korean and that Koreans taught it to the Japanese (#44). He has yet to substantiate that claim, or any of his other accusations, which only goes to prove my point (#51) that it’s always some wacko Japanophile or brainwashed Chinese netizen who believe these fabrications.
Yep. 劍道=검도=kendo.
Arguing over a vague term like 劍道 without specifying what form you are actually discussing is pointless. If you want to decide who came up with the term the answer is simple. The earliest record is from the Han dynasty (as mentioned by Doe) so the term is Chinese. But what was meant by the term back then is far from the same as what is meant by it now. At its root 劍道 simply means “the way of the sword”, and as such it could be applied to any tradition that involves swordsmanship, and that is probably how the term was used in the past, without referring to any particular style.
However Kendo as we know it today, with bamboo swords, the Japanese clothing worn etc is obviously Japanese. It was created in the 20th century by people from old samurai families who wanted to preserve something of their ways, blended different styles and made a modern sport out of it after the Western concept of fencing, kind of how modern wushu was formed after 1949. So regardless of what the origins of the Japanese samurai class or its swordsmanship traditions were, the modern Kendo sport was created by Japanese.
Even in Chinese, the term 劍道 now refers to Japanese Kendo only, while 劍法 (method of the sword) is used for the general term ‘swordsmanship’. Just because the term Kendo is originally Chinese does not make the style we associate it with today Chinese or anything else.
By the way, I am in no way implying that this somehow makes Japanese swordsmanship or swordcrafting superior.
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