Today was the memorial day for Ahn Chang Ho (Dosan), who died March 10, 1938 at Seoul National University Hospital. The memorial was held at the Dosan Park in Apkujeong-dong.
Ahn Chang Ho took “Dosan” as his pen name and, as such, promoted Korean education and the social development of Koreans at a time when the Japanese were intent upon diluting Korean national identity. He was also a political organizer and a key member in the founding of the Provisional Government of the Republic of Korea in Shanghai. Dosan was one of the first figures of his time to espouse an ideology of self-reliance and independence for Korea.
{ 89 comments… read them below or add one }
‘Twas one of my favorite parks until they stopped letting people go on the brown grass. Great for walking the dog, letting the kids loose on their rollerblades and bikes and, of course, gazing at all the lovelies, dressed to the nines, walking around hand in hand with ugly guys presumed to be rich. Does anyone remember the statue of Ahn Chang Ho doing the Sieg Heil salute? They finally got around to replacing the statue, but I was never quite able to figure that one out.
Has anyone read the “Biography” on the site to which Mr. Elgin linked? Anyway, in its introduction, it said the following:
Was it really “without parallel”?
Also, the “biography” on the site did not say anything about An Chang-ho spending two months in jail in 1909 on suspicion of being involved in Ito Hirobumi’s assassination. At the time An was a member of the secret society “Sin Min Hoi” (신민회 – New People’s Society), the mission of which was to enlighten the Korean people and to set up bases overseas for independence fighters. They also wanted to establish a military officer’s training school.
Reading the biography on the Web site confused me because it painted a different picture of An then the Korean-language history book I have, which says that with his dying breath, An Chang-ho yelled, “Ito Hirobumi and the Japanese emperor committed a great crime.”
By the way, according to Bruce Cumings book, “Korea’s Place in the Sun,” An Chang-ho’s son, Philip Ahn “became a millionaire playing evil Japanese officers in Hollywood movies.” In the book, Bruce Cumings wrote about his roles as follows:
By the way, I hope Brendon Carr allows me to talk about Korean history, as long as I do not mention Dokdo. I am wondering if the colonial period is also a taboo subject for him?
First of all, gbevers, we have shown repeatedly to you that Bruce Cumings has no credibility as this was the same guy who once claimed the US and South Korea started the Korean War by invading North Korea…so stop referencing him or you will make yourself look more stupid than you already have.
Secondly, what does the writing of a proven liar like Bruce Cumings have to do with Philip Ahn playing an evil Japanese officer or not? Anthony Hopkins once played Adolf Hitler. And your point is….?
Thirdly, THANK GOD you can’t talk about Dokdo anymore. You were losing to Frogmouth anyway.
gbevers wrote in #3:
“Was it really ‘without parallel’?”
Well yes, it was.
“By the way, I hope Brendon Carr allows me to talk about Korean history, as long as I do not mention Dokdo. I am wondering if the colonial period is also a taboo subject for him?”
The only question I have is WHY? It’s not like your tendentious little screeds are going to be presenting any new information or insights for that matter. It’s pretty damn clear to me from reading the comments you’ve made on this sight what you’re going to maladroitly attempt to argue. Frankly, it’s just going to be warmed over version of the usual apologias that are written and argued better in other venues.
Believe me, you’d be wasting the time of you and others. Instead, I suggest seeking some sort of therapy instead to discuss with a medical professional the clear pathologies that afflict you.
JK writes:
“First of all, gbevers, we have shown repeatedly to you that Bruce Cumings has no credibility as this was the same guy who once claimed the US and South Korea started the Korean War by invading North Korea…”
Whatever annoying things gbevers says, I have to say that JK’s attempt to show Cumings to be without credibility to be rather weak. Frankly, he sounds like one of those Cumings-haters who gleefully criticize his work without seeming to have done an actual serious reading of it.
To say that Cumings is arguing that the US and ROK started the war is a bowlderized and rather sloppy distillation of what he was actually arguing. Cumings’ overall take on the nature of the Korean War was that it was civil and revolutionary in character and not some bipolar proxy war between communism and democracy. That it was the volatile and capricious social and political situation on the peninsula following liberation from colonial rule that it made it such that some sort of war, whether DPRK/Soviet or ROK/USA initiated, was totally and utterly inevitable; this especially in light of the demarcation at the 38th parallel and the creation of separate regimes in the north and south.
In the second volume of the Origins of the Korean war, Cumings provides a quote from British minister of works, Richard Stokes who said at the time
“In the American Civil War the Americans would never have tolerated for a single moment the setting up of an imaginery (sic) line between the forces of the North and the South, and there can be no doubt as to what would have been their re-action if the British had intervened in force on behalf of the South. This parallel is a close one because in America the conflict was not merely between two groups of Americans, but was between two conflicting economic systems as is the case of Korea.” (pg. 769, paperback edition)
Before anymore criticisms and outright dismissals of Bruce Cumings’ scholarship, I suggest that JK and other commentators actually take the time to seriously read a large body of his works.
You are an idiot, JK, and it looks like Mr. Tilly is starting to get silly, too.
While I can’t speak for JK, I have to be honest in saying that I find it equally silly that gbevers accuses me of “starting to get silly”. Truth be told, if I am being as silly as gbevers asserts, then it is an unalloyed instance of the pot calling the kettle black.
Tell me gbevers, don’t you find it a little silly that you as an individual attempt to “talk” history that’s been more or less exposed as meretricious all the while knowing that you aren’t going to convince anyone let alone an individual with even a modicum of rudimentary reasoning skills. You’re like a hamster in his spinning wheel with all you rather mundane expositions the Japanese imperial era. All that expended energy, all that sweating and still in the same place. Now that’s silly.
Like I suggested, please do crack open that phone book and look up a therapist.
Cue in Kirk vs. Spock fight music…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyhhFzE5O5U
#7,
Yes, he clearly states his opinion in that book that the Korean War was not started by a single event. He backs his argument up with evidence that there had been cross border skirmishes (even exchanges in artillery fire) for over a year before the war had officially begun.
#2,
“Grasshopper, as soon as you are able to grab the rock from my hand you may leave the temple. . . .”
This very famous line was also one of Philip Ahn’s.
#2,
BTW, he played Japanese officers in American WW2 propaganda movies. I guess that very important detail was wasted on you.
I wrote in Comment 2:
SomeguyinKorea wrote in Comment 13:
Can someone please explain what SomeguyinKorea is talking about?
#14,
A simple reply to your suggestion that he was a traitor or an hypocrite for having earned a good living playing Japanese soldiers in American movies.
…a…not an…
Dammit to hell, Bevers, can you just fucking die please? NOBODY LIKES YOU OR CARES WHAT YOU SAY.
Even the people who used to tolerate you are sick of it. Give it a rest. You hate Korea and love Japan, we got it.
Please do not mention that willfully ignorant man, Cummings on my threads, as a valid source of information, “gbevers”.
Secondly, you should read about Phillip Ahn, who was a very nice man and played many different roles in Hollywood as a professional actor. He quit doing the cruel Japanese shtick because he played them too well for his own comfort and safety.
Thirdly, regarding your mis-informed comment about Dosan’s dying words, let me quote a little from a letter he wrote from prison in 1934:
I suspect your “Korean language history book” is propaganda of some sort too.
Ahn Chang Ho was primarily concerned with developing the future leadership of Korea through education and the cultivation of personal and social virtue in Koreans. Others tended to take up the issue of guns and knives rather than him.
I wish that there was more available, regarding his thoughts on many subjects.
SomeguyinKorea (#14) wrote:
I was not suggesting that at all, you goofball. I just thought it was an interesting fact.
R. Elgin (#18) wrote:
I was simply quoting from a popular Korea-language history book here in Korea. If I am misinformed, then so are many Koreans.
R. Elgin (#18) also wrote:
Was Mr. “Cumings” information about Philip Ahn wrong, or are you the one being willfully ignorant now?
“gbevers”, I got my information about Phillip Ahn from one of his relatives. I trust them more than Bruce (my CV is BIG) Cummings.
Your Korean history book is also propaganda and whoever did that should be publicly denounced.
One of these days there will be a thread about a Korean saint, who was active during the Japanese occupation, cannonized by the Pope and gbevers will somehow find something negative to say.
He’s getting rather predictable.
so what? Let the man say what he wants to say.
No one except me rags on cm.
I say the same shit all the time, too.
Bevers is a guy with a ‘face’ and a real name. He survived. He’s survivor. I respect that.
it’s not like someone else who banged a girl in Korea, and didn’t give her the USA passport she wanted, but later said she was pretty enough for GI Joe, but too ugly for him.
Bevers is a nicer guy, relative to him.
Support from an unlikely source. That’s why you gotta love the ‘hole. It’s unpredictable as hell.
Given that gbevers “different” takes on the history of Japanese colonialism and his, I must admit, deep knowledge of Japanese culture and language I wonder if he’s ever read Kenzaburo Oe’s to short novellas “Seventeen” and “J”. Recalling from what I read a few years back, I can’t help but see strong points of commonality between gbevers and the protagonists in these stories.
http://www.amazon.com/Seventeen-J-Novels-Kenzaburo-Oe/dp/1562010913/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236733406&sr=1-6
Mr. Silly Tilly,
I know next to nothing about Japanese culture and absolutely nothing about the Japanese language, and I have not read either “J” or “Seventeen.”
And to all the other goofballs here who think I am trying to trash An Chang-ho: Get a fucking life. In Comment 2, I was simply trying to say that the description of Mr. An in the Web site biography was somewhat different from what I read in my Korean history book.
Thank you, Wjk.
Ahn Chang-ho was a virtuous patriot, but more important, as far as I’m concerned, he consciously sought to serve as a role model to Korean-Americans for proper behavior and good citizenship. He deserves better than being disparaged on this forum.
I actually met Ralph Ahn, one of sons, several times back in the ’80s, when I lived in the area and occasionally patronized a restaurant he owned in Panorama City. Twenty-some-odd years later he still stands out in my mind as one of the kindest, nicest, courtliest gentlemen I’ve ever met.
gbevers strangely writes:
“I know next to nothing about Japanese culture and absolutely nothing about the Japanese language, and I have not read either ‘J’ or ‘Seventeen.’”
This is just too damn weird. Let me get this straight: you’re an arch defender of Japanese imperialism yet claim to know next to nothing about Japanese culture and language. So in essence, you’re defending something in which you have no personal granular knowledge of but rather simply glean and unimaginatively recite translated works and English secondary works on the subject. If this be true, then truly the positions you take regarding the subject you talk about are downright hollow and superficial.
After all, the positions you take are strong ones. The least you could do is attempt a serious study of the subject that you’ve staked an interest in defending. Sounds to me like that your perorations are simply knee-jerk reactions to some unexamined visceral hatred of Korea. Truth be told, I don’t know you personally and can’t be 100% certain. But given what you just wrote and your past comments this can be but the only logical conclusion. Piece of advice, sometimes it best to acquire actual, deep-seated knowledge about something before one goes about making sweeping judgments.
Finally, if you truly have no facility in Japanese culture or language, then why the hell are some your comments filigreed with Japanese kanji and characters? Seems odd that someone bereft of such knowledge would do such a thing. Seems to me like someones a poseur.
Anyways, I suggest you read “Seventeen” and “J” and then see that therapist I suggested. Discuss the books with the therapist if you will. I think after that conversations for you on this blog will be more fruitful and interesting.
Look, we can all agree that it is extremely weird for white guys Bevers, Lovmo, and Barber to be obsessed with Dokdo to the extent they proxying the Japanese and Korean positions, respectively, as if there were any pretense of a need for it. It’s just weird and to put it in Texas-speak for Gerry, none of them have a dog in this fight.
But, Barber and Lovmo are probably just doing it to get laid — Gerry, by taking a contrarian position on this most emotional of issues is at least standing up for what he truly believes. Although why an arcane border dispute between two East Asian nations should obsess him, I know not. It is as creepy and weird as if some Japanese or Korean otaku were to become obsessed with the minutiae of the Gadsden Purchase.
This article by the half-white grandson of Dosan is interesting, especially this.
Per dogbertt:
“But, Barber and Lovmo are probably just doing it to get laid — Gerry, by taking a contrarian position on this most emotional of issues is at least standing up for what he truly believes.”
See, that’s where I differ. Here we have an individual whose entire knowledge of the matter-by his own admission of little Japanese language ability no less-is essentially derivative. According to his statement about having little Japanese language ability, it’s only fair to conclude that he’s never done any sort of intense primary language research into the subject. If he had came to the positions that he does after having done the due diligence, then I’d take him a lot more seriously. But that’s not the case.
His entire meme when he comments on this blog is a single issue yet he claims no ability to make objective judgments about the evidence he needs to bolster his case. It seems that he gropes through the ether of the internet searching for a piece of red meat to feed his raging spite for Koreans.
Does all this sound about right to you gbevers? If not I’d love to hear what you have to say.
Charles Tilly,
Gerry lives and works in Korea. The research he does in relation to Dokdo is in Korean, not Japanese, reading Korean maps and documents.
shakuhachi,
Since you selectively lifted from an article written by Philip Cuddy, do you mind if I do the same?
I don’t deny that some knuckle head in Korea said something real stupid to Philip Cuddy, but that’s far and away not the only thing interesting Philip said. I guess interesting for everyone is subjective.
shakuhachi writes
“Gerry lives and works in Korea. The research he does in relation to Dokdo is in Korean, not Japanese, reading Korean maps and documents.”
Yes, I know and that’s all well and nice. But it still behooves Gerry to perhaps not utilize sources from a single language. After all, there are two sides to this dispute and it’s rather odd that he would make no initiative to acquire the necessary language skills in order to get a fuller, comprehensive view of the subject he so desperately wants to educate others about.
WangKon936, there are several reasons why I chose those lines over many others. One was that it happened to him personally, rather than relating what happened second hand. The other thing is that there is a pretty good chance that the person that made the comment to him had people that collaborated to some extent as ancestors, while Philip is one of those that certifiably does have a resistor as an ancestor. The shameful thing is that for all the hero worship of today, at the time the independence activists received very little help from their fellow Koreans.
Charles Tilly,
Now you are just being silly for the heck of it. If you want to know of Korean cognizance of Dokdo, then you look to Korean documents and maps.
R. Elgin (#20) wrote:
So Philip Ahn’s relative denied that Philip played the roles of “the evil Japanese officers” in Hollywood movies?
Silly Tilly (#24) wrote:
Later, Silly Tilly (#28) wrote:
Make up your mind, Tilly.
When I write about Korea’s colonial period, I often use primary Korean source documents, not Japanese. In regard to Dokdo, I focus on Korean primary source documents, but get help from online Japanese friends when needed for the Japanese documents.
Do you not speak Japanese or Korean, Tilly? I assume you do not know Japanese since you thought I had a “deep knowledge of Japanese culture and language” when I do not.
Silly Tilly (#31) wrote:
I have done a faily large amount of primary language research on the subject of Dokdo. Have you? If not, why are you commenting on something you know very little about?
Anyway, maybe you should do more “due diligence” on me before you start commenting about me.
I’m sorry Gerry, none what you say above comes close to impeaching the statements I made regarding you.
No I do not read Japanese. Nor have I done any extensive research on the Dokdo matter or Japan’s colonization of Korea. But then again, I’m not the one with the weird psychological obsession with those issues. I’m not the one with a compulsion to use such knowledge to insult and demean a whole group of people. I’m not the one attempting to make a case one way or the other. That’s you my man. And since you’re the one with the obsession and the case to make, shouldn’t you be relying equally on Japanese language sources on your own and not leaning on the crutch of your biased Japanese friends? Shouldn’t you have all sorts of tools at your disposal in order to scrutinize evidence to bolster your case?
I’ll ask again: if you have such a twisted obsessions with these issues why are you only able to read Korean language sources and not Japanese ones? It’s like someone attempting to study Sino-American relations and only relying on Chinese or American sources occasionally complimented by sporadic help from his “online friends” in regards to the other language material. When Carter Eckert wrote his book about Korean economic development during the Japanese colonial era do you think he only relied on Japanese or Korean language sources? NO. He utilized and integrated both into his pioneering yet deeply flawed work. What he had to say was controversial, but people gave him the benefit of the doubt because he had done the due diligence and came to his conclusions from deep, protracted study of the matter, coming from sources on both sides of the issue. This is what you failed to do and this is why I and others simply can’t take you seriously.
As for doing due diligence on you, frankly, I think your wooly comments on this blog will more than suffice.
Finally, my mind has been made up and I’ve been nothing but consistent in my criticism of you. I initially thought that you had Japanese language skills, but then you admitted you do not. In light of that my criticism of you was more than warranted and in no way inconsistent. You claim to speak for the rightness of the Japanese side on things related to Dokdo and the colonial era yet you have only trace knowledge of one the necessary languages pertaining to that subject matter. Again, how is anyone suppose to take you seriously in light of that notwithstanding your woefully biased assertions.
Frankly Gerry, you just like all the other conspiracy theorist nut jobs out there. You attempt to give an intellectual and academic sheen over the pap you write. But once someone with even a modicum of intelligence comes along seriously scrutinizes what you write, it all melts away and all that’s left exposed is a fetid and rotting pile of drivel.
Gerry, it’s not what you focus on that shows you are not a historian. It’s what you omit, we’ve seen how you operate. Your approach to the subject is to attack Korea’s claim without even evidence of Japan’s You “research” could be summarized from any Japanese government brochure.
Every article you’ve ever posted on the subject is straight off the table from Japan’s MOFA. Who needs you?
#38 – “Again, how is anyone suppose to take you seriously in light of that notwithstanding your woefully biased assertions.”
I doubt anybody takes his him seriously, but I’m not sure he even cares. I think he clearly knows a lot about the topic of Dokdo/Takeshima/Liancourt/shit-spattered islets, but it is the seemingly complete absence of any research objectivity that makes it hard to take.
#39 – “Gerry, it’s not what you focus on that shows you are not a historian.”
Indeed. This is a guy who’ll look at a two-minute film clip, and on the basis of observing a few smiling children and no obvious atrocities, use it as evidence to support his view that the Japanese occupation of the penisula was benevolent in nature, and that Koreans remain oddly unappreciative of their Japanese masters’ efforts to better their lot during the period.
Silly Willy,
First, I am not a historian and have never claimed to be, but I am still quoted in Japanese research on Dokdo, for some reason. That is because I can still do research on the Korean documents and maps, which by themselves, prove Korea’s Dokdo claims are bogus.
If you are going to try to “make a case” about me, then you will have to do more due diligents then read my comments on “The Marmot’s Hole.” As I have said, you have already made, at least, one assumption that turned out to be completely wrong.
You have already admitted your ignorance of Dokdo, so how can you say, “you just like all the other conspiracy theorist nut jobs out there”?
Silly Tilly (#39) also wrote:
Unfortunately, no one with “even a modicum of intelligence” seems to want to debate with me about Dokdo.
Charles Tilly,
I think psychological diagnosis is far beyond your abilities, and what you have written is totally over the top.
The fact is that Gerry has contributed a lot to knowledge about Dokdo. A whole slew of Korean claims in regards to Dokdo have been shown to be false because of his writings. Lets face it, it is this fact that you object to, not “woefully biased assertions”.
First to Gerry.
I’m not getting into a debate with you over the Dokdo snafu. You’re a committed true believer. There’s really no point. The only sensible thing to do is point out the severe methodological flaws in the way you go about making your claims. As you’ve admitted, and as I’ve showed, the methodological flaws are considerable and should be addressed and ameliorated by you before you can even wish for someone to take your claims seriously.
To shakuhachi.
I never attempted to do psychological diagnosis of Gerry nor do I wish to. Frankly there probably isn’t much there beside the usual sordid filth one finds in maladroits. And no, from my reading of the Dokdo issue Gerry has in no way “contributed a lot of knowledge” to the matter. As one commentator astutely noted, there the usual pablum recited by unhinged Japanese irredentists and right-wing revisionists.
Also, I never claimed that you were a historian Gerry. Please. I’m generous when it’s called for. And it’s not called for in this instance.
No, if anything you’re a crank. Sorry, but that’s the most charitable I can be given the circumstances.
Silly Tilly (#43) wrote:
Thank goodness! Besides, I have already been banned from writing about Dokdo on this blog.
Charles Tilly,
No psychological diagnosis? Then you might want to ease up on these -
“weird psychological obsession”
“the one with a compulsion to use such knowledge to insult and demean a whole group of people”
“you’re the one with the obsession”
“twisted obsessions”
“conspiracy theorist nut jobs”
Mmm’kay?
I can think of 3 contributions right now that debunk Korean historical claims to the Liancourt Rocks.
1. Korea claimed sovereignty over Dokdo in 512AD. Gerry looks at the original documents and allows everyone else to see them too, proving the claim false.
2. Dokdo was mentioned in the Sejong geography text in 1454AD. Gerry demonstrates clearly that it is not Dokdo, but the largest island closest to Ulleungdo, called Jukdo, that is mentioned in the text.
3. 1530AD Korean geography books mention Dokdo. Gerry proves this assertion to be totally false, using the original documents.
These are 3 important things that Korea puts forth as proof that Dokdo historically belongs to Korea, and yet Gerry has shown the claims to be false. Your objection to Gerry, Charles Tilly, is not his bias but the fact that he is successfully spreading the truth.
4. 2009AD Korean maps and history books claim sovereignty over Dokdo.
There. That settles it.
Shakuhachi,
To the shallow and literal minded those would seem like psychological dissecting. But if you really think about it they’re not.
In fact, there’s no need to do any dissecting. Read over his previous comments, it’s all there for one to see. This is an issue that he continually harps on saying the same exact thing the same exact way. Albert Einstein once said that a sign of insanity is when an individual does the same thing every time expecting a different result. This is what Gerry’s doing on this blog in regards to Dokdo and Japan’s colonization of Korea. He says the same thing the same way expecting something to change. So it’s not an issue of diagnosing Gerry’s psyche but rather objectively observing what Gerry does and simply calling a spade a spade.
As for those “contributions” that Gerry’s made regarding the Dokdo issue, well that’s just spiffy. Frankly, I’ve read those same claims from the same sort of yahoos in Japan. Like I said before, Gerry isn’t offering anything new. He’s just spewing out the usual warmed over banality. But hey, if you are persuaded by those facts who am I to take it away from you. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.
#29
But, Barber and Lovmo are probably just doing it to get laid
You gotta be kidding me. Being a Dokto maniac gets you laid?
#47
LOL !
#6
What is the meaning of “maladroitly” ???
@50:
Maladroit: to be clumsy, awkwardly, in an inept manner.
Hope that helps.
Okay, I’ve read enough of this. If anyone of you so much as mention Dokdo on this thread, here on in, it gets deleted.
If you can not stay on topic, your comment disappears.
This thread was a simple reminder of a very decent fellow and Korean patriot who is perhaps mythologized more than he should be and for the wrong reasons. “shakuhachi”s article that he linked to was exasperating to read as well. Such anecdotes and propagandized treatment of many Korean historical figures is why I wonder if many Koreans really understand what Ahn Chang-ho was promoting at all!
R. Elgin (#20) wrote:
The Korean history book I got the quote from was ““연표와 사진으로 보는 한국사,” written by Ha Il-sik (하일식), an associate professor of History at Yonsei Univeristy.
By the way, can you recommend a Korean-language History book that does not have propaganda in it?
Alright then Gerry, I will look up that source but, as of now, based upon the written statement from the attending physician that took care of Ahn, no such mention or claim of such “last words” that you mentioned was ever made. I also note that this “Ha Il-sik” is also one of a bevy of historians that was protesting the Ministry of Education’s recent revision of textbooks used in schools here.
I also found one article by Phillip Cuddy — the grand-son of Dosan — who wrote:
The more I look at what passes as Korean history in the twentieth Century, the more questionable practices and political agendas I find.
Who could have predicted that this thread would have become the fitshight that it did. Ah, but Gerry Bevers got involved in comment #2, and Shakuhachi came into the fray to provide backup.
Gerry, whatever point you may have been trying to make at the beginning, it was not likely to be received well because of who you are.
In communication, a number of factors come into play. One of them is the content of the message itself, and one of them is the context of the messenger. You may not have been meaning to make some snarky comment about Ahn Chang-ho. But because of your past snide insinuations, sarcasm and disingenuous remarks and questions (see #3 above) it is unlikely that anyone will take what you say on face value (see #19). THe fact is, most people here believe you have a (close to) irrational dislike of Korea, and are a pro-Japanese apologist. Now that may not be true in some objectively, emperically verifiable sense, but know this: everything you say on this blog or in any public forum will be seen through that perspective or not. You have succeeded in creating such an aura around yourself that even an innocuous comment will be examined for an ulterior motive.
Charles Tilly did a wonderful job above calling you out, and your resorting to calling him “Silly Tilly” resounds about as hollow as someone calling you “Hairy Beaver.”
As for Shak: “No psychological diagnosis?” followed by lots of copying and pasting. Using the same measuring stick, would you like someone to comb through your blog and see every time you have done some armchair psychology work? Calling someone’s sanity into question or suggesting they have an obsession may be uncharitable, but it hardly counts for misrepresenting oneself as a mental health expert.
Re: Bruce Cumings, he did some good work and put in a good number of hours combing over those documents in the archives, but he hasn’t done any substantive original work on Korea since the 1980s. If you look at his latest works, they are mostly rehashes and repackaging of earlier work. Some stuff in “North Korea: Another Country” is vermatim the same as his earlier writing. And don’t even get me started about his interesting claims about peace corps volunteers billeted with Korean families. That is for another thread.
Cumings’ Korean language ability is minimal. I have known Mormon missionaries who have been here 2 years who know the language better than him.
Bruce seems unwilling to accept recent research on things like the biological warfare issue and Soviet involvement from an early stage in planning the June 25th attack on the south, particularly work by Kathryn Weathersby and her team.
I have no comment to make on what he wrote about Philip Ahn. It may be true. But the message is destroyed by the messenger here (Gerry Bevers), because we immediately suspect a hidden meaning.
By the way, a big thing Cumings missed out or ignored in his two volume Origins book is the case of Donald Nichols. Now THERE is an amazing story that deserves to be more widely known, so here is a link for all of you:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3101/is_4_48/ai_n28879712
Does anybody know when the memorial day for Jo Man-sik (조만식) was? He was a great man.
Hamel,
What is your dog in this fight other than to jump on Bevers, with whom you disagree with anyway? If Gerry has some sort of reputation it is because he vocally expresses a contrarian viewpoint in a society that refuses to consider points of view outside the official political orthodoxy. You are doing your level best that any negative perception of Gerry persists by suggesting that he has been making “snide insinuations, sarcasm and disingenuous remarks”.
Gerry is quite accomplished in the Korean language, has spent a long time in Korea. He is able to take Korea on Korean terms without English speaking friends or a wife to serve as a lens to the outside, Korean world. Can you say the same? All I am seeing is a big mouth that likely can’t string a sentence together past ordering a beer, and even than cannot make himself understood.
On the topic of Dosan, I don’t think that Gerry wrote anything unusual. Would it have been so unusual for an independence activist to say that Hirobumi and the Emperor have committed a crime?
Hamel (#56) wrote:
If you do not believe my Bruce Cumings’ quote, then go HERE and read a version of it, yourself. However, I do not see why people are making such a big deal about it. I did not post the quote to disparage either Ahn. Besides, how could anyone (besides a few goofballs on this blog) read the quote and think it is somehow disparaging?
Re hamel #56:
It’s true that since the publication of the Origins of the Korea War that Cumings hasn’t come up with another piece of original work. I’ve read a number of edited volumes where he contributes where a good portions of it are repeats of stuff he said elsewhere. To be charitable though, “Origins” was a massive work and unlikely to be topped. I can see why he or his readers would find things after it repetitive and a let down. Plus, he is nearing old age, so perhaps he no longer has the energy in him to do what came before.
Then again, if you go through some academic journals such as New Left Review or Diplomatic History, there should be some things that are more interesting and less repetitive. By the way, you if you already haven’t I suggest taking a look at “Parallax Visions”. To be sure there are some pieces that are essentially reruns but some that aren’t as well.
As for his Korean language ability, I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt. If you look through the bibliography of both volumes of the “Origins of the Korean War” you’ll see that he had gone through an extensive volume of Korean language documents.
But you’re right, in this post Gerry’s insipid views are what needed to be demolished, not an in depth discussion about Cumings the man and his work. That is surely a thread for another time and day.
Shak: I grow weary of seeing Gerry claiming some intellectual and moral high ground. Yes, he does express a contrarian viewpoint, but so what? I do that sometimes too.
When you say that he apparently does it “in a society that refuses to consider points of view outside the official political orthodoxy” are you speaking of this blog, or Korea? Because the two must not be conflated.
I am aware that Gerry has spent some decades in Korea, and has some facility with the Korean language. I do not see any signs, however, that he “is able to take Korea on Korean terms.” I would say that of, for example, Oranckay, who essentially lived his entire adult life here, or John Linton, who grew up here.
As to my big mouth that likely can’t string a sentence together past the minimum 호프 Korean, well that’s funny. Is this really to become a “my Korean is better than your Korean” debate? I won’t claim to be any great shakes in the language, but I don’t like to blow my own trumpet.
As to what Gerry said about Dosan, I agree it wasn’t that unusual per se. I don’t necessarily think he meant anything negative. But for many here, the fact that Gerry is speaking about a Korean independence figure, and that he tends to speak mainly on Japanese colonisation of Korea and Dokdo, well, you do the math, as the Americans say.
Re gbevers #60:
Well shucks Gerry!! Why didn’t you just provide that full quote at the beginning of this thread. Believe me, it would have saved you a lot grief. By merely offering that initial sentence of the text and in light of your track record what is it that you thought people were going to think? C’mon, you and I are in disagreement over a lot of things, but I refuse to believe that you’re this naive or dumb.
Fine, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt Gerry, you never intended to disparage Ahn. But do not take this in anyway as me retracting my other criticisms of you. I’d simply suggest the next time around to provide more context to what it is you want to communicate. You know, don’t be all thumbs.
Guys, you can also lay off vilifying or defending Gerry. If he dies, you can all go to his memorial day service to wax on his virtues but, if not, don’t keep trying to bury him either, before his time, on this thread.
“Shak”, yes it would be unusual for “an independence activist to say that Hirobumi and the Emperor have committed a crime” if he did not say such, rather if it were only attributed to him by this 하일식 in a book on Korean history.
Gerry, is there an attributed source for this alleged deathbed statement in the book?
R. Elgin’s right. Despite my coolness towards Gerry, I too think he has suffered enough slings and arrows for one thread. After all, this is R. Elgin’s thread and we should all respect his wishes.
There will be another time for the resumption of the melee that occurred here.
Charles “Silly” Tilly (#63) wrote:
The quotes are from two different sources, Goofball.
It is pretty obvious, Tilly, that you do not have Cumings’ book, “Korea’s Place in the Sun,” because the quote I posted in Comment 2 came from that book.
Cumings’ quote in Comment 60 is part of his review of Hye Seung Chung’s book on Philip Ahn, where he expands on his quote from his book.
R. Elgin wrote:
No, there is not attributed source. It is one of those “It is said that he say….” type of quotes.
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Figures. Probably yet another bs m**********r shaping Korean history to his own liking. I wonder if this historian has actually read any of Dosan’s writings too. If he had, he would realize just how uncharacteristic this attributed deathbed comment is.
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R. Elgin, I guess what you are saying is that Dosan is a kind of non-violence independence activist, and extreme-sounding comments would be out of character for him?
The irrefutable fact that mountain rose is equivalent to shit?
Seething? Yes. Bevers desecrated something for which I put in a lot of work. It took many hours — the many hours that I usually don’t have — to translate that beautiful song into English, and he had the nerve to take my translation and insult me as well as the poem in a vile manner. I am fully justified in being furious at him.
“Shak”: yes, Dosan was an educated, very deliberate man who instead of commenting upon the unfairness of his situation in jail, in a letter to his wife, spoke only of love, family and his society. I seriously doubt that he is going to suddenly deviate from a lifetime of positivism.
“korean” get a life already. No one can destroy the music if it is in their hearts, head and fingers.
Elgin,
my issue is not about the destruction of music, but the reckless insult at it.
Wow. That was a whole bunch of something.
#18,
“I was not suggesting that at all, you goofball. I just thought it was an interesting fact.”
Sure…I’d be a goofball if I wasn’t cynical about that statement.
Assertions that An Changho was some sort of peace-loving non violent independence are ludicrous to the extreme and I can only hope they are made on the basis of NO knowledge of the man’s place in Korean history.
“Dosan was an educated, very deliberate man who instead of commenting upon the unfairness of his situation in jail, in a letter to his wife, spoke only of love, family and his society. I seriously doubt that he is going to suddenly deviate from a lifetime of positivism.”
Sure makes him out to be a teddy bear and not the self serving terrorist terrorist that played a key part in fracturing the independence movement and contributing to the division of the nation.
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#78,
Malcom X was a pimp and a racist before he became a great man.
You “misuda” clearly have no idea what you are talking about since it is so easily contradicted by the man’s writings and more than a little documentation. One can only question your motivation in posting such blatant flaming troll material herein.
Maybe you could start an investment company since you seem to enjoy peddling worthless opinion with an air of authority while hiding behind that proxy server in Chicago. I notice that that Cummings fellow is out of chicago as well and I would not be surprised if he were skulking around this site as well, incognito.
R. Elgin,
Good to see you are taking a firm hand with off-topic and offensive comments. I look forward to more discussion about Dosan.
# 78 is obviously a troll offering nothing but baseless and unsupported accusations intent on stirring up distraction and dissent.
#80
Malcolm X. Never would have expected to see that name mentioned in this blog.
Read an excellent book written by James H Cone, Martin & Malcolm & America: A Dream or a Nightmare. He said MLK, Jr and Malcolm X were two equally necessary and complementary yet opposite halves. They were like the yin and yang of the Civil Rights Movement. One stood for integration, the other separation. One modeled himself after Ghandi, the other said “By any means necessary”. Towards the end of their lives, MLK, Jr became more like Malcolm X and Malcolm X became more like MLK, Jr.
Sorry. I had hoped #78 would be deleted too. It was before I had my morning coffee. Apologies it what is baseless and does appear to be a trolling comment.
I will try to think before posting next time.
Just for the record, Elgin polices the comments of his posts. So if you’re wondering why a comment got deleted, ask Elgin, not me.
#84,
“Malcolm X. Never would have expected to see that name mentioned in this blog.”
Why?
“One modeled himself after Ghandi, the other said “By any means necessary”. ”
Malcolm X rejected that ideology after participating in a Hajj.
Besides, Malcolm X was more complex an individual than you seem to give him credit for.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/may/19/gayrights.usa
The whole world should be a member of the Philip Ahn Admiration Society.
I myself have been to his birthplace and kissed his star on Sunset Blvd in Hollywood.
His sister is an exceptionally spunky 94 year old halmeoni, always full of fun, who endorsed Obama before “Super Tuesday” at the big Los Angeles even with Oprah and the Governator’s wife, something that may have helped turn immigrant-generation Korean-American support towards Obama.
I think the reason Philip Ahn was the Japanese villain in so many movies was because on the first hand he didn’t mind, his family having been active in the anti-Japanese campaign well before the Provisional Government, but largely also because for years Hollywood just always had a lot of “evil Japanese” roles to fill.
I should blame myself for not yet finishing my series on the “Korean-American History Tour” (coming soon), but I’m surprised Mr.Elgin’s post makes no mention of the very special place Ahn Chang-ho holds in the history of Korean-Americans.
“oranckay”, I would spend much time listing the good things that Ahn Chang ho has done for the Koreans that relocated to America in the beginning of the Twentieth Century. His efforts achieved much from what I have read and probably more than I know.
Suffice it to say, he was a great inspiration to many Koreans and his organization — Hungsadan — was remarkable and timely in its aims to cultivate leaders of exceptional quality for Korea when Koreans were still caught up in regional strife.
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