And in Misunderstanding Korea, Koreans, Jon Huer tells us that Koreans are individually kind, but collectively rude… and that Koreans and Americans lie differently.
Oh, and Jon Jon explains his role as social critic here. I found this part cute:
Then, how does the social critic go about doing his criticism?
His first weapon of choice is “generalization,” as opposed to “particularization.” The opponents of the critic tend to call on him for being too “generalizing” and, as an example, they tend to give a particular example contrary to the generalized conclusion.
For my part, it is this generalization that gets me in hot water with readers. But generalizing is the social critic’s main business. No conversation, intellectual or otherwise, can ever take place unless a generalized statement is first offered. In fact, all statements are a form of generalization.
So, when the critic generalizes and says Koreans are emotional, someone will quickly oppose him and say, “Not all Koreans are emotional, and I know a Korean who is not emotional.” Opposing generalization with a particular exception is the oldest, and the most ineffective, practice among those who dislike all forms of generalization.
Dr. Jon, your problem is not that you’re generalizing. It’s that your generalizations are unsubstantiated and wrong. I mean, come on, Koreans are strange because Korea’s far away and Koreans speak a strange language? Good Japanese are what the Japanese nation makes them? No positive side benefits from the introduction of American culture? Is this some sort of UCLA humor that we non-UCLA guys just don’t get?
Social criticism is fine — there’s tons of good criticism in the pages of the Korean-language dailies. Guys like Mike Breen and Scott Burgeson do a wonderful job providing social commentary and criticism in English. The difference between them and you, Jon, is that they know what they’re talking about.
Before trying to help foreigners understand Korea, take the time to try to understand it yourself.
{ 55 comments… read them below or add one }
I would be good if Mr Huer could answer his critics directly. I am sure RJK would offer him equal time.
Shak: do you *promise* to be good?
Hamel,
I am always good.
TBH, I find it difficult to comprehend many of Mr Huers writings. There are people out there criticising him, and that suggests they have understood what he has written. I am hoping he will answer his critics and thus help me understand what the f*ck he has been trying to say.
All Jon Huers should set up a user account and come and defend their remarks on the Marmot’s Hole.
If it were a tad bit funnier I’d think somebody had set up an elaborate hoax.
Can it now finaly be revealed – is Jon Huer really the long-lost identical twin of Robert K.?
(will that be one l or 2?)
While the process of uttering generalizations may possibly yield truth, without the basis of observation, it’s also likely to generate false or inaccurate statements. So, where is the wealth of empirical data upon which Huer has based his generalizations?
His criticism of his detractors is that they project and magnify an exception, which is a distortion. Yet what has Huer done, if not the same? I see nothing in what he has written in the KT which points to a methodical and unbiased collection of information, so what has served as the basis for his claims? If he has done such research into these areas, then he should provide it for public scrutiny. Otherwise, he’s just talking out his ass as much as he believes his critics to be.
To be fair, I thought Huer’s article last week on how America is the oldest nation in the world was pretty good. Also, his his recent piece on the differences in concept of “public” was decent.
The rest of his stuff I find incomprehensible or plain ol’ goofy.
Granfalloon, I hope you’re joking about that first statement.
I do kind of agree with this point though:
“A Korean can be sweet, wonderful, and conscientious in his private sphere. When he is in public, however, he recognizes nothing and nobody else but his own existence.”
Damn! How did that get here?
“No publicly accused American ever kills himself to save his dignity or honor nowadays.”
Dirty rotten Americans not killing themselves when caught in a lie like good honest Koreans!!!
WTF! LOL….
And that’s just the tip of the crazy ice-burg in the Lie article!
Guess he has never heard of the word 눈치. A very Korean term that I believe doesn’t have an exact English equivalent.
Nice link Linkd. Maybe Jon Huer’s articles might be more interesting and meaningful if he tattooed them onto her body. Then I would be sure to read every single word with utter joy.
As far as dipshits in the Korea Times go, this guy is pretty mild. Give Jon Huer a break. Wait until my op-eds get in there! Then go to town, as the paper will have truly gone to hell at that point…
Looks like we’ve got a new whipping boy. Here we have a person who obviously has a passing acquaintance with Korean culture, just enough to notice certain behaviors that Korean nationals often appear not to. However, apparently not having spent enough time absorbed in Korean culture to yet have a firm grasp on the actual behaviors, his hasty generalization are based on incomplete and flawed information.
Korean genetics alone are insufficient to really understand the culture. And while it helps to have Korean parents, this is also insufficient to inform a person of the culture. I believe that one needs to live in Korean society *as a Korean* to acquire this familiarity.
For example, it helps to have spent one’s youth in a small town in the countryside. Does he know what it’s like to have to get up in the middle of the night to change a yeonton? To earn little to nothing living, attending school and working alongside others in a small town? work at a corporation during the industrial development phase? Although I never served in the military, this too would be an informative experience. He appears to have none of these formulative, informative experiences.
To Matt @#3:
“I am always good.”
Uh, no you’re not. More than once, you’ve made your negative (and usually wrong) generalizations of Koreans and kyopos while calling these very people whom you are so negatively generalizing “racists.” Therefore, you are not “always good.”
“TBH, I find it difficult to comprehend many of Mr Huers writings. There are people out there criticising him, and that suggests they have understood what he has written. I am hoping he will answer his critics and thus help me understand what the f*ck he has been trying to say.”
How are you any better? How many times have you written about Koreans and kyopos as a whole in a negative way? Think back over the last few years…..
“Social criticism is fine — there’s tons of good criticism in the pages of the Korean-language dailies. Guys like Mike Breen and Scott Burgeson do a wonderful job providing social commentary and criticism in English. The difference between them and you, Jon, is that they know what they’re talking about.”
Give me a break. Mike Breen and Scott “King Baek-poo” Burgeson do a rather middling job at best of providing social commentary about Korea. If I had to render my judgment, I’d say that Breen is just slightly better that Burgeson in that he seems to be a slightly better writer. Aside from that, both offer the sort of commentary that buttresses, coddles, distills the immanent biases of expats, rather than provide any serious commentary about Korean society.
It’s one thing for a foreigner to provide meaty and cogent criticism of Korean society. It’s quiet another, however, to conflate one’s solipsistic ruminations for said trenchant observation.
Here’s my assessment: Jon Huer is a middle-aged prodigal banana. Ostensibly an adopted one, no less. Unless “Huer” is just another one of those Korean surname Romanization attempts gone bad for “Hur” or “Huh”. At least, he wasn’t pretentious enough to have a middle initial in front of his name like “W Jon Huer” or something like that, an affectation of a few extra-special kyopos.
Mr Huer is simply trying to make some sense of the train-wreck that is his self-identity. If his article seem confusing, it is because he is confused and confusing. That’s what happens when a kyopo “searches for his roots” by going back to a Motherland that changes so rapidly constantly. He is beyond the point of no return. Discovering that he is not “Korean” either, whatever that means, he falls back on his default setting: Unreformed Twinkie.
NK, I agree.
That’s why this spoof is a microcosm of Jon Huer’s confused life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jTM4ZOa69U
Hey Guys,
What’s with all the rumbling up North?
I really think it is time to handover the Korean peninsula to the Peoples Republic of China as a Chinese Protecturate, with US and Chinese joint cooperation.
Obviously, the US and China mean no war over a peice of land that can’t even grow apples most of the year, and creates too many headaches for everyone.
The Americans should give the Korean peninsula to the Chinese for them to administer the differences between the Northern Stalinist/Chosun people in the North and the Southern Korean people in the South that have no significance to the national interests of America.
I know you guys are nervous up there. However, I think it is the perfect time for an appropriate major transition. It means no harm to you. I believe it will be brokered peacefully and hopefully will happen soon.
Also, there is a Korean diaspora that needs to be addressed. Much like the Jewish diaspora. (If you don’t know what “diaspora” means then look it up on the internet.)
However, the People’s Republic of China is in a much better position to resolve the diaspora related issues since most of the Koreans in this situation are either in the PRC or in former Soviet block countries, for example Kazahstan or Koryo-Saram or also Koreans in former Russian provinces (which were controlled by the Japanese Imperial forces at one time) such as Sakhalin. For example, the Jilin province in the PRC; this is important for people who are part of the diaspora and other ethnic Koreans who were displaced during the period of Japanese colonialism. I could write a book on it, as could some here.
America cannot work out these issues any better than America can work out any issues related to the diaspora of a proud people who through persecution were spread across east and near asia.
Let the Chinese and Americans agree on a handover of the peninsula to China, with limits and rules of agreement to protect the South.
Listen to me my friends, I write what I write out of a desire for the best for all.
Is David Dodge Jing’s sockpuppet???
#24
His writing is too prosaic to be Jing.
If memory serves, David Dodge II is a generic Western expat with a Chinese wife. His adopted sister is Korean. His grandfather’s uncle died in the Frozen Chosun. He, like many Americans who holds dear the myth of “The Greatest Generation”, believes that Koreans should be eternally grateful to America for saving them during the Korean War. His adopted sister is Korean. His grandfather’s uncle died in the Frozen Chosun. Apparently, his people did a lot to save our pathetic gook asses.
Netizen Kim,
I would never call an asian person a “gook”. I would never call anyone by these types of labels. I am a free man.
I don’t hide behind false identities. I post my ideas honestly and I hope that others will also be honest. Maybe that is my mistake.
I fear you and like you at the same time. I fear you because you spout off all kinds of racist hatred towards others that you don’t know. I like you because you seem like an intelligent guy. What should I do, fear you or like you?
Look, I post here on rare occassions, for example when I drink too much Whisky.
There are serious issues facing us as Americans, Koreans, or any group of people.
I think that the Peoples Republic of China is better positioned to deal with the Korean predicament and I think America should disengage. I am American, you are correct my wife is Chinese and so is my daughter.
I don’t think that Korean people should be grateful to Americans forever. As for myself 2/3rds of my family are not American. I am the sudden minority here.
Net Kim, don’t be uncool to other people. I know more about Korean history than you do by a longshot but that’s because I have a photographic memory and am much smarter than you.
By the way, do you have children? I bet you don’t. If you did you would care about people and wouldn’t be spreading hate everywhere. That’s my personal opinion.
Well… if “his people” did so much to save our “pathetic gook asses” it just seems strange that he would want to abandon us now. Because we all know just how responsible the Chinese are with their tributary states. Ask any Tibetan or Outer Mongolian.
I met a Korean war vet once when I was in college. They are a dying breed. This one had foot and leg problems and needed one a cane to move around. I helped tutor him so he could know how to use a computer and the Internet. He told me that he use to smuggle food onto deuce and half truks to all the “mammasans” and “pappasans” because they wouldn’t have had survived the winter without it and the U.S. Army had mountains of supplies anyways. They wouldn’t have noticed if some of that food was gone. He never felt like the entire Korean race needed to thank him. He never asked or expected me to thank him either and I didn’t. But I did tutor him for free.
To me it seems as if the guys who actually fought in Korea felt as if it was their duty and it was simple humanity to help other humans. It appears that the allegations of “ungrateful” allies comes from people who never fought in the war.
To me it seems as if the guys who actually fought in Korea felt as if it was their duty and it was simple humanity to help other humans. It appears that the allegations of “ungrateful” allies comes from people who never fought in the war.
Exactly.
I do not believe an individual should be held responsible for the sins of his forefathers. By the same token, an individual cannot claim the achievements and sacrifices of his forefathers as a license for feeling a sense of entitlement either.
In America, whenever a black cries “slavery!” the standard white folks response is “I had nothing to do with that” or some variation of “don’t blame me for what my forefathers did to your forefathers”. I would apply the same reasoning to these folks who seem to expect unconditional gratitude from Koreans. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Here we have one David Dodge II, a mere mortal, who speaks of South Korea like it’s his own personal property to give or not give to the Chinese. Or you have others talking of ending the US-Korea alliance and withdrawing the troops, like a jilted lover threatening a breakup. I think this happens usually when someone is having expat-PMS or experiencing some random bad kibun about Korea. Maybe some ajumma gave him an evil-eye stare in the street that day. Who the hell knows?
WangKon936: “It appears that the allegations of “ungrateful” allies comes from people who never fought in the war.”
Irrelevant, and a category error. If ungratefulness is in evidence, it may be noted by anyone.
NK:”Or you have others talking of…withdrawing the troops, like a jilted lover threatening a breakup. I think this happens usually when someone is having expat-PMS or experiencing some random bad kibun about Korea. Maybe some ajumma gave him an evil-eye stare in the street that day. Who the hell knows?”
Pretty much everyone knows. And everyone knows that it has nothing to do with any random bad kibun.
It has to do with having one’s nation and nationality systematically slandered – undeserved scapegoating on false, trumped up charges – “GI crime wave,” “poisoning the environment”, “dumping unsafe meat they would not eat themselves”, “complicity in war crimes and massacres, such as Kwanju”, etc. It has to do with scapegoating an ally for one’s ills when that ally has not been responsible for those ills, and has in fact provided hard cash, massive military spending, export markets, technology and so forth.
When this occurs, Americans are rightly incensed at unprovoked lies and villifications – regardless of whether one has himself served the country or has had relatives or acquaintances who have make the ultimate sacrifice.
If Americans spoke this way about Korea, you can bet people would rise up in anger. Only a hypocrite would expect different of Americans.
“Irrelevent, and a category error. If ungratefulness is in evidence, it may be noted by anyone.”
True, anyone can say that Korea is an “ungrateful” ally. However, all I noted was that I haven’t heard it said from any of the Americans who gave the most. By extension, that complain sounds the most hollow from Americans who gave the least (or nothing at all).
I like this blog immensely. Maybe that’s why I have and would like to continue coming back.
The folks that post here are always spirited and full of Chutzpah.
Thank you to Mr. Koehler, for your contribution to improving dialogue amongst an immensely wide range of people with different ways of thinking.
The world is a better place because of you.
And I can only hope that I can make a similar contribution here in China.
I am working on it with my associate and our web designer in HK.
Best.
#26
Look, I post here on rare occassions, for example when I drink too much Whisky.
I post here while I’m stone-cold sober but mostly bored out of my freaking mind. Maybe I should try after a heavy bout of whiskey drinking. Seems to work for Irish writers.
WanKong936,
How many Mongolians do you know?
I happen to have a personal friend who is a Mongolian and prefers to live here in China versus Mongolia.
He’s a big guy (as Mongolians tend to be), sort of a strong arm man. He gives back up support to others when they need some “muscle” to get the job done. I ask no more details than that. He only smokes American cigarettes (Marlboros) and gets upset when I mistakenly buy some rip off Marlboros without looking closely from Vietnam or something. He loves to watch the NBA. He likes the Lakers and likes to wear Laker type outfits.
He is currently studying English. Although I doubt he has a high school degree, his English is quite good. The rest we fill in with Chinese. We go out and have some drinks at the KTV (you guys call it noraebang) with some other people every couple of months.
He has a very pretty Chinese wife and a newborn Son.
so my point is, Mongolians are not discriminated against here in China. Where did you get your facts from?
“…that complain(t) sounds the most hollow from Americans who gave the least (or nothing at all).”
Although this is a red herring argument, I would argue that anyone who has worked in Korea has given something of him/her self in service to the country. I would also argue that anyone who has paid US taxes has given capital to the country, given that Korea’s reconstruction and economic development dependended so greatly on US capital contributions, including the massive military spending, grants, loans, and access to international capital.
There is nothing hollow about a complaint when a nation and a nationality is unjustly slandered. Regardless of the fact that someone has not personally contributed and sacrificed as much as I have in service to Korea, I do not begrudge the rare fellow American citizen who is well enough informed to understand what has occurred for complaining about such things. I am grateful to him for having cared enough to have expressed an opinion on the subject.
Years ago I was in Seattle airport for a few hours. I started chatting with this grey-hair at the bar, told him I lived in Korea. He said he fought in Korea. Neat-o. I want to give him something Korean, but I don’t have anything. Then, Ah! Cash.
I take out my wallet and give him the cleanest ROK bill I have. He smiles, and says:
“Arigato”.
I can outdo you Linkd and my story may even be true!
I was enjoying a pint at an Irish bar in Times Square NYC. I went out to see if I could bum a cigarette and there was this homeless old black guy staring at me and out of the blue he said “anyounghasayo.” Now, I look generic East Asian and usually get Japanese or Chinese but rarely Korean off the bat from a non-East Asian. So this old black guy got my attention and proceeded to tell me that he served in the Korean War. I smelled BS just like the liquor from his breath but decided to give him a chance. There was only one U.S. Army division that was segregated and had a lot of black troops and I asked him which one it was. I thought he would stumble on that one and reveal his bull crap, but he didn’t. The man earned a cigarette (that I had bummed for myself) and a crisp new ten dollar bill.
“Kamsamnida.”
Oh, the answer is the 24th ID.
“There is nothing hollow about a complaint when a nation and a nationality is unjustly slandered.”
Isn’t saying Korea is an ungrateful ally a form of slandering a nation also?
“How many Mongolians do you know?”
Five. Three inner Mongolians, one outer Mongolian and a Buryat, a Siberian Mongolian if you don’t know what that is. There is a sizable population of Mongolians in Los Angeles and many of them live or work around Koreans.
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/nov/26/local/me-belief26
All of the ones I’ve talked to say that what Koreans feel about Japan are what Mongolians feel about China.
During the second reign of Bush II, I gave a few dollar to some former Korean War vets fund-raising outside the local H-Mart supermarket. Curiously, in those days, the Feddle Gummint always seemed to have lots of money available for the President’s war hobby but not enough for Vet Administration back home. For my donation, I received a Made-in-China US flag.
I know what a Buryat is WangKong936. You should check out a film by Akira Kurosawa called “Dersu Uzala”. The only Japanese-Soviet joint film effort to my knowledge. The story is about a Buryat man in Siberia and the Russian development efforts in the Far East.
Actually my ex-girlfriend was from Sakha. Do you know where Yakutsk is? LOL.
Your LA Times article is based on accounts from people who left the East with criminal records most likely, that’s why they are in LA.
True, some Koreans believe they are originally of Mongolian lineage.
Later.
Yes I know where Sakha is. They don’t consider themselves Mongolians and they prefer to be called Yakuts.
Besides insulting all Mongolians in LA, I don’t know what your last comment tried to say…
Later.
You guys co-menstruating?
My Mongolian friends can beat up your Mongolian friends!
Actually the only encounters I’ve ever had with Mongolians were them stopping me on the street in Korea, trying to sell me socks so that they can continue to go to school. What’s up with that?
#19 ..”It’s quiet another, however, to conflate one’s solipsistic ruminations for said trenchant observation.”
…wow, I can’t ever hope to know what this means, but I think I’ll write a poem about it anyway
knock knock
whose there
soli
soli who
solipsistic ruminations for said trenchant observation
oh, I think you have the wrong house
sorry, my bad
no problem
the end
#29,
“Irrelevent, and a category error. If ungratefulness is in evidence, it may be noted by anyone.”
Actually mizar, what WK said isn’t a category error (do you even know what that means? you use it an awful lot), but your response to him is a good example of one. Ungratefulness, as the word implies, cannot be noted by just anyone. You had to have done something to deserve gratitude in the first place. Paying taxes doesn’t count.
“Isn’t saying Korea is an ungrateful ally a form of slandering a nation also?”
Its only slander if its untrue as you well know!!
#46 A category error arises when facts of one kind are presented as if they belonged to another. An example is conflating the collective with the individual, as in “You had to have done something to deserve gratitude in the first place. Paying taxes doesn’t count.”
When one notes that one nation owes a debt to another without asserting that the debt is owed to himself as an individual, there is no category error.
“When one notes that one nation owes a debt to another without asserting that the debt is owed to himself as an individual”
But you did assert exactly that:
“I would argue that anyone who has worked in Korea has given something of him/her self in service to the country. I would also argue that anyone who has paid US taxes has given capital to the country”
It certainly sounds like you’re talking about individuals here – individuals who worked in Korea, individuals who pay taxes.
While it is a category error to conflate the collective with the individual, WongKon also expressed confusion about why an individual with apparently “no skin in the game” would experience personal feelings about a perceived violation of reciprocity.
As always I am grateful to my sock puppet Tinyflowers, whose familiar diversionary fallacies again serve to reinforce the primacy of logic.
To: David Dodge II
Dear David,
Congratulations. I now hate you more than I have ever hated anyone on this blog. I hate you even more than I hate gbevers. And that’s saying something.
You have a real skill. Your total lack of logic, your prediliection for using 10-dollar words incorrectly, your odd sentence structure and typography, and just your general tone have made you easily the most repulsive commenter on the MH. That’s an achievement you can be proud of.
Sincerely,
colontos
Jeez this blog can swiftly twist a discussion topic into oblivion! The columnist is fundamentally correct about the theme of his message, a foreigner’s view point of Korean public society. Not some guy who has lived in Korea for 30 years studying 한글 and trying to be “down” with the culture.
“It is the general consensus of many foreigners who understand Korea that, very urgently, Korea needs to develop a public, an institutionalized model of society where rules and consensus, not just the personal tugs of the heart, which can be whimsical and unpredictable, are upheld.”
눈치 is focused squarely on individual selfish interests, not on being seen as “kind in public” per se.
Spitting, pushing, cutting in line, staring, rampant public drunkness and the appearance of general disdain for others wins Korea a last resort for a tourist destination. When I chose to move to Korea from my multicultural homeland, all my Chinese, Korean and Taiwanese friends wondered “why Korea”? They know it kind of sucks for outsiders here compared to other places. This is Korea’s well earned reputation and Jon Huer is telling us nothing most of us don’t already know.
Vince,
One problem. If Jon had titled his series “Observations” of Korea, I’d be cool with that. Essentially, that’s what he essentially does. Make a string of brain dead observations. However, he entitles his series “Understanding” Korea. However, understanding would naturally entail some explanation and analysis of some worth for which there is none that I can notice. He takes separate “observations” and ties them together very loosely and illogically and passes them off as “understanding.” That’s like trying to sell a car without an engine and a transmission. Just be honest and say you are an auto body repairman, not a mechanic.
Right — If Jon had entitled his column, “Newbie’s Observations of Korea, with Added University Sociology Jargon,” I wouldn’t have much of a problem. But that’s not what the column’s entitled, nor is it what Jon claims he’s offering.
A response to hitest’s comment in #45:
Well hitest, if you’re having trouble understanding a higher level of prose than what one finds in the pages of “See Spot Run”, I guess it’s safe to conclude that you are or were one of those ex-Wal Mart English teaching expats working with a forged university degree. You know, the type that give the rest of the English teaching cohort a bad name.
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