English teachers are tired of being pegged as routine drug users and criminals, reports the LA Times.
Instead, they’d rather be pegged as loafers, backpackers and Charisma Men.
OK, maybe not that last part.
In three years of teaching English in South Korea, Tony Hellmann says he’s seen discrimination both in and out of the classroom.
He knows teachers, he says, who are harassed for having Korean girlfriends. He’s met only three black instructors in his time. And he’s been denied service in Korean bars.
“I’ve been told to leave because I’m a foreigner,” the 33-year-old Seattle native said.
Now Hellmann is helping wage a campaign against what he views as part of a troubling trend of discrimination against foreigners, this one fostered by South Korean officials: the idea that teachers from abroad routinely use illicit drugs and commit crimes.
Mad props to the Marmot’s avatar!
Many say the news media here have helped intensify stereotypes faced by the estimated 1 million foreigners living in South Korea.
[Marmot's Note: Just to be fair to the Korean media, they're not the only ones to promote the image of the drug-addled English teacher --- Cho Joohee did the same in ABC News, too.]
One 2007 story on foreigners who commit crimes, published in the Chosun Ilbo [link added by me], the nation’s leading Korean-language newspaper, featured a cartoon with three knife-wielding characters chasing down a terrified Korean girl.
Even Marmot’s Hole favorite Lee Eun-ung — or Yie Eun-woong, as he apparently prefers to spell his name — makes a cameo appearance:
“The outsiders make themselves become discriminated against,” said Yie, who declined to reveal his profession. “Foreign teachers get much more pay — and enjoy all kinds of pleasures — while better-qualified South Koreans are struggling with their unemployment.”
Read: They make more than me and have sex with Korean women… for free, no less!
Now, you all know how I feel about this — sure, nobody will ever accuse the local media of political correctness in the manner in which it reports English teacher crime, and targeting only non-ethnic Korean English teachers with regulations is not only discriminatory, but makes little practical sense, too.
Still, let’s get real — it’s only recently that English teachers have gotten any scrutiny at all, and as anyone who has spent time in that industry knows, it’s a sector that, ahem, needs scrutiny. The English education racket — by providing gainful (but not too gainful) employment to just about any white guy with a pulse — has brought over a lot of folk for, to quote the ABC story, “a decent paying job, with the added bonus of a fun and wild life — in Asia,” and it was only a matter of time before the Korean public — and the media — caught on that their hard-earned money was going to pay for the fratboy lifestyles of individuals who had no business being in a classroom to begin with.
Not to put too fine a point on this, but English teachers get paid too well, have too much fun, bitch way too much and engage in too much nonsense (which invariably ends up in the news) while employed in an industry that wastes entirely too many resources while providing little of value for me to really feel that sorry for them because a drunk guy said something nasty to their girlfriends, people stare at them on a subway, or some TV program makes them look like drug-addled pervs… the constant woe that befalls Michael Hurt and Friends not withstanding.
There’s another thing, too. As bad as the media supposedly is, fucked if I can remember seeing even one op-ed, letter-to-the-editor, etc. written by an English teacher taking said publications to task for their story writing. Sure, I’ve seen it discussed ad nauseum in the Korea Times/Korea Herald, but nowhere Koreans actually read. The fact that this is so may indicate much about the underlying problem — most of those who can bitch in the Chosun Ilbo, etc. don’t feel there’s much to bitch about, and those who bitch the most can’t.
{ 99 comments… read them below or add one }
here, here! most esl teachers make a bundle doing nothing, yet fail to see how that disenfranchises them from the locals. then being the stand up white folks they are, get a massive chip on their shoulder because everyone treats them like theyre different and never really being discriminated against in the land of white privilege, act like the asses they really are while talking about the big favor they are doing for Koreans coming over here to “teach English”.
few if any of them have had real problems like being arrested because of someone else’s baseless and uninvestigated claim or assault for walking down the street next to a Korean woman.
they are totally clueless and completely redefine the terms n00b and FOB.
the industry need cleaning badly and the government still doesnt know what it is doing or seem to understand cause and effect relationships. at least with something like ATEK in place there might be an alternate voice on the policy making scene.
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“There’s another thing, too. As bad as the media supposedly is, fucked if I can remember seeing even one op-ed, letter-to-the-editor, etc. written by an English teacher taking said publications to task for their story writing. Sure, I’ve seen it discussed ad nauseum in the Korea Times/Korea Herald, but nowhere Koreans actually read. The fact that this is so may indicate much about the underlying problem — most of those who can bitch in the Chosun Ilbo, etc. don’t feel there’s much to bitch about, and those who bitch the most can’t.”
Assuming said publications would be inclined to print op-eds or letters by those foreigners who do feel inclined to criticize their reporting or editorial slant. Maybe they would (and maybe some papers more than others) but I think there might be at least a certain level of unwillingness to publish foreigners’ opinions that might be critical not only of things Korean, but of the paper itself.
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Robert and #2 said it best. To criticize the reporting on foreigners in Korea would be a virtually automatic critique of the papers themselves, thus, no articles from foreigners.
So many of the stories are just hear-say and conjecture–there’s no reason, NONE, why Lee Eun-woong should have Op-eds. It’s fine if an article is done *about* them, but giving them a voice is the height of ridiculousness.
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globalvillageidiot: Two things. Firstly, I think the opposite is more likely — having a foreign name attached to a piece would actually INCREASE its chances of being published, as long as it’s in Korean. Secondly, even if you thought said paper would refuse to run a letter/column critical of their editorial decisions, there are plenty of other papers that would LOVE for someone to take a shot at one of their competitors. For instance, has the Chosun got you down? Write a piece to the Hani, Kyunghyang, OhMy, MediaToday, etc. calling the Chosun out. The Hani say something stupid? The Chosun, JoongAng, Dong-A, etc. would love to hear about it.
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“Firstly, I think the opposite is more likely — having a foreign name attached to a piece would actually INCREASE its chances of being published, as long as it’s in Korean.”
As well as in denial.
Korea remains a country in deep denial. Giving foreigners a real voice is the last thing that will ever be allowed. The best way to marginalize them is to give them an English speaking forum.
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I might also say that if they think you can hack it, publications will not only print your stuff, they might actually seek you out to write. And trust me, there’s nothing Korean papers love to print more than lectures about how Koreans need to globalize and internationalize more.
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#2 and #3
That’s an all too convenient excuse for not doing a thing. Have either of you actually tried to get something published in a Korean paper? Or are you just assuming it won’t get published?
For what it’s worth, I think it’s a good thing that the Korean media is focusing more on the English teaching profession, even if the coverage is somewhat sensationalistic.
I imagine if the average Korean is able to read this site, or Dave’s ESL cafe, they wouldn’t need the media (or ATEK) to gain an unfavorable view of the English teaching profession.
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This is sort of on topic, right?
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#5
Actually, not learning the local language would be the best way to marginalize yourself in any society.
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If anyone wants to try it, a decent English-to-Korean translation can be had for 25 or 30 bucks a page. I can hook you up.
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I think the whole point was that once you’ve put in your dues to try to understand the culture and language (i.e. you can actually communicate with the locals), you would no longer have the need to bitch and moan about your situation. Funny how that works. I imagine a FOB using a translation service to complain about the content of a newspaper that he can’t read would make for some good comedy though.
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That’s some funny shit…thanks for that.
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most of those who can bitch in the Chosun Ilbo, etc. don’t feel there’s much to bitch about, and those who bitch the most can’t.
Or, most of those who can bitch in the Chosun have spent so long learning Korean that they have actually become like Koreans, and those who bitch the most know that they never want to be like Koreans.
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See the problem with not knowing the language is that you aren’t even allowing yourself the opportunity to be heard, much less presuaded. You are like the proverbial ostrich with your head buried in the sand, oblivious to what’s going on around you. Not understanding, not even caring to know what’s going on. Everything you see and hear will continue to confound you, so what do you do? You complain, but no one can hear you. So you complain amongst yourselves, smug in the comforting confirmation of groupthink.
But ultimately you are cut off in your insular little world, marginalized and disenfranchised. Economic rejects at home, socially irrelavent abroad, all you CAN do really, is bitch and moan. In other words, you become the stereotypical whiney expat.
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somebody needs a hug
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The truth must hurt. I would give you a hug if I could.
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Super. Just what the Hole needed. Another armchair psych pretentious c**t.
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I agree that the English “education” industry needs more scrutiny. I’m not so fast, though, to point all the blame on the ones who are the most powerless in the system.
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I wrote a ltter to the Korea Herald about how much “Ssomi and Hobo” sucks, and it wasn’t printed.
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There’s nothing I’d like more than to see the whole English-teaching industry gutted. Get rid of 99% of ‘em. I’m more than happy to take my chances.
But I’m sensing a lot of “blame-the-victim” here. As my Korean has gotten better and better over the years, I do not find myself feeling any more a part of Korean society. In fact, I liked it better when I couldn’t understand the things my own university says about foreigners over the PA.
Here’s a quote from the article by a recruiter who didn’t give his/her name:
“People just don’t like foreign teachers.”
If given the choice between being a whiny expat and a xenophobic racist, I’ll take whiny expat any day.
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English teachers not qualified to work in public schools or universities in their home countries are paid too much. English teachers qualified to teach at home and just about anywhere else are not paid too much. Low salary caps are one reason why I left. Even with Korea’s lower tax rate, I still bring home more money every month. Rather than putting a native speaker in every school, money would be better spent hiring qualified, experienced teachers to train already working Korean teachers and future teachers in colleges of education. Luring tenured teachers from English-speaking countries won’t be easy; there are, however, a fair number of teachers circulating in international schools for expatriates.
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I’m with you, Granfalloon. I just finished after two years at the same school, where I can honestly say I worked my heart out, stayed late, had two (unavoidable) days off sick and did my very best to improve the education of my students, with very little guidance or input from my superiors. I basically trained myself to teach, made all of my own materials and curriculum from scratch and I’m proud of the things I achieved. I don’t ask thanks for this, I see it as a part of my job as a teacher, and I believe the salary I received was fair and competitive. Especially when I would say that I was a better teacher than a lot of my colleagues, Korean or not.
However, I detest being tarred with the same brush as the doughballs I’ve met who happily fill an hour playing ‘Hunt the Marker’ and draw the same pay as me. I think that the education system has to look at their recruitment, selection, training and ongoing development procedures. They also have to look at appraisals and performance management (euphemism for firing deadbeats). Then maybe foreign teachers can be judged by their actions, and not simply for being foreign.
I worked with someone who, if this was at home, would currently be being ‘performanced managed’ out of their job. However, it seems that the school is quite happy to allow them to complete their contract and then give them the thumbs down when it comes to renewal time. I’m sure there’s a cultural thing there, which I respect to a point, but surely if there were some kind of standards being followed then people like this would not be giving honest, hardworking teachers a bad name.
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Sonagi
There already is, at least in my school district just such a programme in place, Korean teachers are trained in English teaching by a mix of qualified and unqualified native teachers, albeit none of them with training certificates. However, knowing a few of them personally, I can vouch for their abilities as being of a very high standard. I also know several Korean teachers who have been sent abroad on months long placements, and have attended SNUE for training. The aim is apparently, to start reducing the numbers of native teachers by 2010.
I would say that a problem exists, though, going by what colleagues have said, and having been involved in training Korean teachers myself: a lack of enthusiasm. Many of the KTs are shanghai-ed into doing the courses by their school management and are often lacklustre in their participation, are very difficult to motivate, refuse to speak in class and often fail to attend.
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Scotty,
I know that there are foreign teachers working as teacher-trainers. As you noted, however, many are not even qualifed to be teachers themselves in their home countries. The month-long overseas placement is a waste of time and money unless the teachers are working in schools where they can observe and interact with fellow professionals. There probably isn’t much that can be done with veteran teachers who won’t upgrade their skills, so resources should focus on young teachers and future teachers, including offering incentives like tuition scholarships to high school seniors with advanced English proficiency.
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Well until the Koreans’ qualifications for teachers isn’t “white,” there will be no change.
I’ve cited this example before, but when helping my last boss in Korea screen applicants for my replacement, we turned down a MA TESOL applicant because he was South African and “too dark” and another guy who was 35 because he was “too old. He might scare the children.” She didn’t look at their qualifications or experience at all.
She’d hired an African-American a few years before and the parents balked and took their kids out of his classes. She kept him for a few months before letting him go because she was losing so much money. AGAIN, not based on qualifications, but by skin color.
And as far as learning the language making things easier, I agree with the above comments. In some ways I felt more isolated knowing what my Korean coworkers said about me or my foreign coworkers. While marking quizzes I listened to a 10 minute conversation about how “fat” a fellow coworker was, and when I said that wasn’t nice, they were shocked that I spoke Korean. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I’d been speaking Korean since I’d met them months before. They weren’t interested in speaking with me except to “practice English” and couldn’t even register the fact that I understood what they said.
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The employers are the ones that need to call for change. They are the ones that can make a difference.
We had two Koreans who were presented as “native speakers” because they had spent 4+ years in America as young adults. They received the higher pay that the foreign teachers received and all the benefits (except housing since both women lived with their families). Their linguistic abilities were monetarily compensated. Other industries pay based on experience and qualifications. This industry should do the same, and reward professional development.
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Hey, girls, I am an E2 English teacher, which means I tested AIDs free and make bookoo money. Come and get it.
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I have written letters to Choson Ilbo but they chose not to print them. Go figure. In the grand scheme of things I’m guessing they don’t really want to hear from foreigners. Whether they respect us, include us in their society – it all, just…meh
That’s fine. I take my (better than American) pay with a smile and feel I am worth what I am paid, even though the kids don’t retain diddly.
But I guess it all depends on who/what/where. I am not the typical frat boy foreigner but I know many who are. I am (in my mind) qualified to teach and do a good job but I know many who aren’t. I know some school directors who are great and some not so great. And, if they are happy with their foreigners or not, its up to them to do something, not the teacher trainers and not the government. Its still capitalist here and business/school owners and directors make and clean up their own mess.
There’s no broad brush strokes for anyone. And therefore no generalizations one can make about foreigners or Koreans.
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Any questions?
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Sonagi – “English teachers qualified to teach at home and just about anywhere else are not paid too much. Low salary caps are one reason why I left.”
Indeed. And one the reasons I’m leaving in a few weeks, after more than a dozen good years in Korea. Unlike one might expect back home, teaching employment is year-to-year here, which often entails little in the way of salary or other benefit increases one would normally expect with seniority in a teaching position at home. (Or what a Korean public school teacher would expect.) My F-5 visa allows for greater job mobility and a greater scope of employment options than most have, but does little to facilitate having the type of stable, secure, long-term teaching career I’m coming to appreciate more and more as I get older and have a family to look after.
I’m also looking forward to giving my kid what will probably be a better education, a cleaner environment to live in, and the chance to avoid the constant attention – mostly positive, but still impossible to avoid – he gets in Korea.
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Scotty,
I know that there are foreign teachers working as teacher-trainers. As you noted, however, many are not even qualifed to be teachers themselves in their home countries. The month-long overseas placement is a waste of time and money unless the teachers are working in schools where they can observe and interact with fellow professionals. There probably isn’t much that can be done with veteran teachers who won’t upgrade their skills, so resources should focus on young teachers and future teachers, including offering incentives like tuition scholarships to high school seniors with advanced English proficiency.
Sonagi
Unfortunately, many of the teachers were barely out of their twenties, and all are, on paper, good at English. But try and get them to speak? If they are the future, then me no likee.
As for qualifications, I am unqualified, but could teach rings around two qualified foreign teachers I have worked with, though you only have my word for that. However, I would rule myself out by saying this, but Korea should, as you said previously, make it more attractive for trained teachers to come here. Only problem could be though, that in my experience, trained teachers get paid slightly more, but are treated with similar disdain as inqualified teachers. I feel that as I’ve grown as a teacher, and now plan to go home and get qualified, I’ve found it more and more stifling working in Korean education, so Lord knows what a dedicated, capable qualifiedteacher must feel.
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Sorry for posting your comments too….
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Believe it or not, I have been put in charge of the foreign “professors” at my school, and part of my duties is to set standards, evaluate them, and make sure they do not cancel too many classes.
What is funny is that we do not have a problem with foreign English professors canceling classes at my school. On the contrary, students frequently tell me that their Korean professors have cancelled their classes or let out the class early. Korean students often try to get me to cancel classes or let them go home early because that is what their Korean professors do.
The problem that many people on this forum to do seem to understand is that Koreans set their Educational standards, not the foreign English teachers. When Koreans set the standards low, the foreign English teachers will tend to just follow those low standards. If Koreans set the standards high, then I think the foreign teachers would also try to follow those higher standards. Also, what could anyone really expect when Korean colleges and universities hire biology and math majors to teach English courses?
I have met very few Korean English professors who set high standards. In fact, I would say that most of the Korean English professors I have met do not really give a damn if their students learn English or not. What they seem to care about is spending as little time as possible doing classroom related work. For example, few seem to give quizzes or homework assignment or have students do workbooks that are graded. Also, their midterm and final exams seem to average about ten questions or less.
When Korean professors see me carrying student workbooks back and forth from my office to the classroom, they have often asked me what I am doing. When I told them, they looked at me as if I was crazy.
How many foreign English teachers have just gotten off the plane, walked into their new workplace and had an English book thrown at them with instructions to go in the classroom and teach without any preparation? How many have been told to just wing it?
Many Korean English professors are very similar to Korean college students; once they get in, they start goofing off.
Foreign English teachers are discriminated against in Korea, and one of the best examlpes of it is the private pension system, which has been designed to keep the foreigner from getting any matching funds from their schools.
From what I understand, private schools and universities in Korea do not have to match the foreign teacher’s pensions payments unless the foreigner stays at the same school for five years. The problem with that is that it gives schools a very good reason to not keep foreign instructors for more than four years. If you could accumulate your years by working four years at one school and four years at another, then it would be all right, but that is not the case. You have to work all five years at the same school. It is ridiculously unfair.
If Korea has crappy English teachers, then it is the fault of the Korean educational system, not the foreign teachers.
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Robert, while you make some good points on the flawed English education system, I think you’re too quick to write off foreign English teachers as a bunch of good-for-nothings.
Don’t be so quick to throw the baby out with the bath water. Foreign English teachers have made more contributions to Korea society than just “upgrading” the kicking beats on the Hongdae scene.
Read Andrei Lankov’s article called the “Original English Boom”
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/opi_view.asp?newsIdx=11302&categoryCode=165
(Also see Professor Kim Eun-gyoung’s KT series on the History of English Education in Korea)
Lankov says the “first hakwon teachers” date back to the 1880s. And what did they do besides lazing around the capital and bitch about religious freedom (because boy oh boy if think today’s English teacher like to bitch, you should have heard the old timers)? Well, tutor South Korea’s first president, establish Ewha Woman’s [sic] University, Yonsei University, Pai Chai University, and effect change in religious freedoms and education in a way that would change Korean society forever.
And it didn’t stop there. Who do you think makes up the bulk of the 외국 Korean scholars around the world, including the Korea Institute of Harvard University and the Center for Korean Studies at University of Hawaii (hometown shout out)? Yep, those damn hippy English teachers from the 70s (and boy if you think today’s English teachers are slackers).
And guess who was selling the pot in Itaewon back in those days? The Koreans! It used to come in conveniently rolled sticks of 20 stuffed in a cigarette pack, sold right off the street. The US military even asked the Korea government to stop selling the stuff because they didn’t want their soldiers smoking up all the time. But ban 대마? The Koreans only chuckled at the naive purity of the Americans: 대마 had been used as 한약 for centuries.
Who else is in the club of those waster English teachers? 심은경, I mean, Kathleen Stephens, the U.S. Ambassador, and (God forbid) she even engaged in “relations” with the locals. And good thing, that union resulted in her wonderful son James. There’s also Milan Hejtmanek, professor of Korean History at SNU and Ed Baker, professor of Korean political history at Hanyang University.
The list goes on but I thought I’d conclude with another former English teacher who seems to have turned out alright: Mr. Robert Koehler.
Wiki says: “The Marmot’s Hole is a popular weblog by American writer Robert J Koehler dealing with Korean politics and society. It is believed to be the most widely-read English-language blog dealing with Korea-related topics. Because of this status, it is frequently used as a source for news stories about the expat community.”
Not too bad for one of those “English teachers [who] get paid too well, have too much fun, bitch way too much and engage in too much nonsense (which invariably ends up in the news) . . . ”
So what about the current batch of these fool English teachers?
Well, how about easing up on the hasty over-generalizations and allowing for the opportunity that maybe, just maybe, we’ve got some pretty damn good English teachers out there with quite a bit more to contribute in the future?
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Well said, Benjamin.
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#33 – The private schools pension plan does indeed suck. In addition to the points you mentioned, universities under this plan can avoid paying severance pay to teachers at the completion of each contract. Whether the plan is the only motivating factor or not, there are plenty of universities out there that set limits on how long an instructor/professor – at least technically a permanent employee under Korean law after two years – can stay, regardless of how good a teacher he or she is.
The present system doesn’t encourage qualified/talented teachers to stick around. It actually discourages good teachers – many of whom love living and working in Korea – from making a career of it here, and, in many cases, invites more transient and/or less-qualified people to replace them.
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Let’s take a look at the motives for learning English in Korea.
I make a living teaching English here in Korea and am a ‘qualified’ teacher of the language. I have certs and a master’s in the field.
Why do Korean’s want to learn English? Is it to be bilingual speakers? Is it to gain employment with an abstract TOEIC/TOEFL/IELTS score?
The answer is the latter. Most students want to learn English so as it improve their chances of attaining a job. The motivation of the second language learners, primarily, is to attain employment.
Is it best to have ‘native speakers’ teaching the classes to Korean students? I would say, no.
It is better for Korean students, given their primary goal of employment, to learn from a bilingual Korean/English speaker?
I’m about to say something that negates the value of my job …..Korean students should be taught by bilingual speakers and Korean should be used in the classroom. The ideal of the ‘native English speaker’ is complete bullshit. The motives of Koreans’ should be addressed and the L1 should be utilized for better understanding.
Can ‘native speakers’ with no credentials/training be effective instructors of a second language? Well, yes….possibly….but where is the emphasis placed? I’ve seen teachers of English that have Korean as their L1 and they are far superior to the ‘native teachers’ that can’t speak a lick of Korean.
I would love to see Korea (Lee, Myung Bak) put more emphasis on funding Korean public school teachers learning (ultimately teaching) the language, and the skills of language, to further the development of young learners of English.
If this happens….I may well be out of a job. By that point i’ll be retired back in my home country:)
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I agree that Korea would be better served hiring trained teachers, rather than just throwing contracts at any white guy they can find. Where they’re going to get thousands of teachers with MA’s in TESOL to staff their public schools, hagwon, and universities is another story, as is how they’re going to pay them. More teachers from India, perhaps.
I came to Korea to get teaching experience, but that was only one of many reasons. I wanted to try out teaching before investing two more years in a Master’s, but also wanted to gain experience in another country, try to pick up the language, and yes do some travelling. I can see how people would object to that, would object to somebody like me being put in a position of teacher if the passion wasn’t, especially since I don’t have credentials back home. And I can sympathize with the frustration of watching so-called teachers not taking their jobs seriously, bitching up a storm, fucking around with the locals, and being generally undesirable imports. Expensive ones at that.
But it is important to remember who’s setting the standards. Maybe those in charge do need to reevaluate the English craze, ask themselves what they really want from us, and ask themselves if the two hours a month we see each class might be better spent other ways. But, the conclusion of such conversations doesn’t always have to be to blame native speakers. We’re often set up to fail in the classroom. Whether that warrants a letter to the editor, or ought to be the subject of a blog, who knows, but as people who take pride in English and in education, it’s only natural for us to grapple with these issues.
And there’s one other thing we need to remember: we’re not hired as teachers. Maybe there are exceptions in universities and in international schools, but for the most part we’re native speaker assistant teachers. Can somebody be a great teacher simply by being a native speaker? No. (Though we realize how meaningless quote-unquote qualifications can be). But can somebody be an effective native speaker simply by being a native speaker? Of course, so the complaining about lack of qualifications is often missing the point.
We do as a community of teachers try our best to improve our image from the inside, to handle ourselves in the classroom as best as possible, and approach our jobs with professionalism and pride. But don’t forget that we don’t set the standards, don’t define “qualified,” but merely try to fit into the system already there.
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Foflappy (#37),
You are wrong about using Korean in English classrooms; at least, it should not be used in English conversation classrooms.
I have used Korean in my English conversation classrooms because I was told to, but once you use Korean in the classroom, especially in a beginning conversation class, the students will rely on your ability to speak Korean rather than their ability to speak English.
I majored in Korean Language and Literature at the University of Hawaii, where an English-speaking Korean graduate student spent most of our Korean conversation class time explaining Korean to us in English rather than having us practicing the language among ourselves. Our conversation class ended up being a question and answer class about Korean in English. I made straight As in the classes, but when I got to Korea, I did not even know how to tell a taxi driver to take me to a cheap hotel in the Yonsei University area.
I am surprised that you would advocate using Korean in an English classroom, considering your training in English education and considering Koreans’ ability to already read and write the language.
I have just recently been put in charge of the foreign instructors at my school, and have suggested to them that they not use Korean in the classroom even though that is the opposite of what the school has suggested. I am now in charge, so I can suggest what I want, right?
I have suggested to the new foreign teachers that they first teach their students the classroom English they will need to allow them not to use Korean with each other. For example, I suggested one of the first things they should teach is how to ask each other in English a question about an unknown vocabulary word or phrase; such as, “What does “Be quiet” mean?” or “How do you say “화장실” in English?”
One of the most boring things in the world is to listen to a teacher lecture in a foreign language conversation class. If a teacher is speaking Korean in an English conversation class, that teacher is lecturing. Koreans have had to suffer through such lectures for most of their life and most still cannot speak English by the time they get to college.
The best way to teach an English conversation class is to have the students teach each other while the teacher is nearby encouraging and guiding. In fact, I think the less the teacher speaks the better.
From my experience, Koreans love to do activities together, so an English conversation teacher should focus on activity-based instruction that will create interesting circumstances for dialog and debate. Once Koreans get over their initial shyness, they love trying communicate with each other in English. One of the reasons they love it is that mistakes with the language and the miscommunication is often funny and challenging, kind of like a game. Also, making and learning from your mistakes is probably the best way to learn a foreign language.
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@21 “money would be better spent hiring qualified, experienced teachers to train already working Korean teachers and future teachers in colleges of education. Luring tenured teachers from English-speaking countries won’t be easy”
Good luck getting the Korean teachers to take the qualified, experienced foreign teachers’ instructions on TEFL methodology seriously.
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Wow. I think bevers is a qualified language instructor for shizzle – teacher’s certificate or no.
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No need to wish me luck because I got very enthusiastic participation from a group of teachers several years ago during a summer program offered to upgrade fluency skills.
Knowledge of the students’ L1 is helpful but not essential for effective L2 instruction. Most teachers in multilingual settings use English only but may allow use of L1 among students. Not relying on translation forces the teacher to use best practices like non-linguistic representation and authentic modeling. The classroom setting matters. If English is not spoken outside the classroom, then it is imperative that the teacher use and encourage the students to use L2 for maximum immersion. Listening is learning if the language is aimed at the student’s level of comprehension. The best teacher is one who has either native or native-like proficiency in the target language AND effective teaching skills.
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“You are wrong about using Korean in English classrooms; at least, it should not be used in English conversation classrooms.”
I beg to differ. Judicious use of the first language is far more productive than wasting 20 minutes not being able to get your point across.
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“I agree that Korea would be better served hiring trained teachers, rather than just throwing contracts at any white guy they can find.”
Don’t blame the employees, blame the hagwon owners who know little about business management and less about English teaching.
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#37,
I’ve discusses those points many times before in my comments on this blog. Clearly, there is a disconnect between government English education policy (for internationalization, ESL context, etc) and reality (standardized tests, EFL context, etc).
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Gbevers #39
“You are wrong about using Korean in English classrooms; at least, it should not be used in English conversation classrooms.”
With all due respect, opinions are like assholes, every one has one.
Am I wrong? Hmm. And with what authority do you reach this conclusion? Because you are in charge of a program now and your view is the only one?
When I speak of using Korean in the classroom I mean why take 10 minutes to possibly get a point across in English when it can be done in the L1 in 2 seconds? What is ‘wrong’ with that?
Upper level classes should not be using the L1. But when you have a group of beginners?? Please.
“I majored in Korean Language and Literature at the University of Hawaii, where an English-speaking Korean graduate student spent most of our Korean conversation class time explaining Korean to us in English rather than having us practicing the language among ourselves. Our conversation class ended up being a question and answer class about Korean in English. I made straight As in the classes, but when I got to Korea, I did not even know how to tell a taxi driver to take me to a cheap hotel in the Yonsei University area.”
Sounds like you should have complained to the administration and gotten a refund…or dropped out of the class. Did you discuss this (in Korean or English) with the teacher?
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I love how folks who came to Korea to teach English, then got a different type of job (say as an “editor” or “working in an office”)
feel that they are somehow a better class of human being than English teachers. I also love how folks (maybe those who have married a local girl) pride themselves on not being on one of those E2 visas (“I’m on an F5″ [spoken who a visible sense of aloofness]).
I find it further funny how this very stratified society has such an effect on Westerners here; somehow folks adopt such hierarchicalizing tendencies (Ex.: F-2 better than E2; “editor” better than hagwon teacher; 10 years in country better than 2 years; “can speak Korean” better than “still learning Korean”)
Are so many of you (Mr. Holy Blog-Master Robert, this includes you) so quick to justify blatant discrimination and racism? Come on folks–open your eyes. Yeah, there are a lot of non-Korean dipshits in Korea, just as there are a lot of Korean dipshits in Korea. Like it or not all you “editors” or “professors” or “office workers,” we ALL are in the same boat. Walking down the street–an a’hole who hates non-Koreans (for ANY reason) ain’t gonna give a shite what job you currently hold. You are one thing to him or her and one thing only: a “foreigner.” Don’t be so quick to suck up to a bigoted people and society friends.
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SomeguyinKorea wrote (#43):
Your 20 minutes of wasted time is my 20 minutes of teaching opportunity.
Something easily taught is often easily forgotten. The Korean expressions that I readily remember are the ones I struggled over before the meaning finally clicked in my brain. I think that clicking sound in our brain storing something in long-term memory.
If you say to your Korean students, “Open your books,” and then quickly follow it with a Korean translation when they do not seem to understand, then you are allowing them time to not think about the English, and you will be translating that sentence for the next four or five classes. However, instead of translating the English sentence for them, you walked over to the window and said, “Open the window,” and then opened the window, things would start to click in their brains. If you then said, “Close the window,” and then closed the window, more things would start to click in their brains. If you then walked over to the door, put your hand on the doorknob, and then turned around and looked at your students, it is very likely that one of them would tell you, “Open the door.” If you then opened the door and turned around and looked at your students, it is equally likely that one of your students would say, “Close the door.”
Next, you walk back to the front of the class and say, “Open your mouth,” and then then open your mouth. You then say, “Close your mouth,” and then close your mouth. Then you can start saying things like, “open your eyes,” “close your eyes,” and “open your hand” and “close your hand” until finally you look at the students, point to a book, and say, “Open the book.”
I like it when Koreans do not understand something because that gives me their attention.
I think one of the problems with Korean English teachers, in general, is their impatience and their bballi, bballi (빨리 빨리) methods of teaching, which means their translating the English sentences for their students. Students need the opportunity and time to think about the English, process it, establish word and action associations, figure it out for themselves, and practice it, but they often do not get that opportunity in Korea where Korean teachers seem to enjoy showing how smart they are by translating English sentences into Korean for their students.
Fofloppy wrote (#46),
No, I reached my conclusion when God spoke to me.
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“exit86″ makes an important distinction and that is discrimination can effect *all* foreigners here, at any place and time. One can not step into a mind and open it or negate the tribalism that plagues humanity but one can use personal wisdom to try and avoid it and be aware of it because being unique can work for one but can also easily work against one since they will be under scrutiny for anything and everything and blamed for anything and everything, given wrong combination of events.
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Two things:
1. Everything Gerry Bevers wrote above is sound methodology for Korean learners of English. (But how do you know whether to believe me? Do you believe me because I have an M.A. in Linguistics / TESOL? Or do you not believe me because I lack the TESOL M.A.?)
2. The faith that people on this list place on teacher “certification” is amazing. I submit that teacher certification–in America at least–is completely bogus. It is an institutionalized scam.
As an experiment, give me 100 state university grads with a variety of majors. Give me another 100 of the same who also have completed a one year teaching certificate. Now let me put them all through one year of on-the-job teacher training. Guess what? At the end of the year, there is absolutely no difference in teaching ability! The ones who can do it learn it in the classroom, from each other, and on their own. The ones who can’t do it, can’t do it, certificated or not.
Teaching certificate my ass. Why not have a basketball playing certificate? All certificate holders can play in the NBA, but those without the certificate are not qualified and cannot play.
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Reg #47:
If by “blatant discrimination and racism,” you mean “the blatant discrimination and racism that allows 20-something loafers with degrees in basket weaving from the University of Bumfuck, Nova Scotia to get jobs earning them decent salaries, health insurance, housing, severance pay, etc. simply for being white and able to speak his mother tongue,” then no, I have no desire to justify blatant discrimination and racism.
Nor do I have any desire to justify the “blatant discrimination and racism” that I believe you are referring to. I just don’t believe said discrimination and racism is that blatant or serious.
And for the record, I consider myself as one of those guys who had no business being in a classroom. I was damn lucky to have the job I had in the area where I had it, and tried to use and appreciate the good fortune that Korea had (and still has) an unhealthy obsession with English-learning that afforded an unskilled guy just-out-of-college like me the opportunity that I had. And in fact, I still count myself fortunate that I have the job I do — I’d like to think myself more productive now than I was stealing some school mother or office worker’s money to speak English with them, but I certainly don’t feel “entitled” or that I honor Korea with my presence.
Una faccia, una razza, I suppose.
Run into many a’holes who hate non-Koreans much? I think I’ve met a few, yet oddly enough, I don’t really feel all that discriminated against. Not on account of my race, anyway. In fact, I’ll go one further — the fact that I’m white has actually opened doors for me that might be closed to Koreans with similar backgrounds/work experience.
Great. And I’ve met plenty of foreigners who treat Koreans like they were an alien race. So?
I don’t know who you hang around, but most of the people I deal with on an everyday basis are Korean, and most are not especially bigoted. They’re just people.
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I’m with #50.
Does experience no longer count for anything????
Do people really believe that a 24 year old kid who just got “certified” in the state of Idaho is a more fitting candidate
to teach abroad than another college grad (sans Idaho certification)
who has been teaching in country for 6 or 7 years?
Must all teachers have some type of official “certification”
to be adept at teaching?
Was Socrates certified?
How about Jesus?
How about Thoreau?
Since these dudes weren’t “certified,” does this automatically transform all their teachings to bull shite?
Yes, proper education and training in the actual field of education is very important; but is this a “must” for teaching bratty
rich 1st graders?
Is teaching bratty rich 1st graders in Korea prestigious enough to draw folks from around the (white, English-speaking, Western [hopefully US]) world to this wonderful, loving country of ours?
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Economic rejects at home, socially irrelavent abroad, all you CAN do really, is bitch and moan.
I’m not in Korea. And I am doing fine teaching Koreans in Canada. How do you like that, chuckles?
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Mr Mao – great contribution! Balanced and open minded! Well done!
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Mr. Holy Blog-Master Robert, this includes you…
“it’s only recently that English teachers have gotten any scrutiny at all.”
Funny, I’ve been here for years and read the scrutiny every 6 months at the minimum.
“and as anyone who has spent time in that industry knows, it’s a sector that, ahem, needs scrutiny.”
Not any different than any other sector in S. Korea.
“The English education racket — has brought over a lot of folk for, “a decent paying job, with the added bonus of a fun and wild life — in Asia,” and it was only a matter of time before the Korean public — and the media — caught on that their hard-earned money was going to pay for the fratboy lifestyles.”
Sounds like you are only talking about E-2 Visa holders with your “brought over” and “fratboy lifestyle” terminolgy?
“Not to put too fine a point on this, but English teachers get paid too well, have too much fun, bitch way too much and engage in too much nonsense.”
How much $$$ is too much? “Too much fun?” Yes, all ‘F’ visa holders should throw stones at E-2 Visa holders for having “too much fun.” Please explain the definition of too much fun? Don’t people have too much fun in other places/anywhere?
Yes, E-2 Visa holders bitch. Too much, I don’t know? What they usually bitch about are things that HAVE OCCURRED like being fired illegally, not getting paid for hours worked, getting kicked out of their home while the police stand and watch etc…
Then we have the ‘F’ Visa holders (such as yourself) who teach and bitch about what MIGHT or COULD happen because E-2 Visa holders filed complaints with the Human Rights Commission of Korea.
Those ‘F’ Visa holders are the biggest cry babies of all English Teachers. They whine and cry ONLY about what they think WILL occur as a result of E-2 filings.
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If Mrs Marmot finds out about Marm’s secret F-visa life, there’s gonna be a wicked cat fight.
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Not quite. You only have to be in the pension system for 5 years to get matching funds. If you stop working at one uni and are subsequently put on the private system at another uni, your time on the clock continues where you left off, not starting from scratch. Put in 3 years here and two years there, and you have your five years and matching funds.
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Comparing foreign English teachers in Korea to Jesus, Socrates, and Thoreau? Now that’s rich.
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“Your 20 minutes of wasted time is my 20 minutes of teaching opportunity.”
And what are your students doing while you’re using sign language and every other trick in your repertoire? How are you certain that they understood what you were trying to explain after having entertained the students with facial contortions? After all, you have no control on the intake of information.
Sorry, but I prefer taking a more student centered approach to teaching.
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Correction…after you’ve entertained them…
…no control over…
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“Was Socrates certified?
How about Jesus?
How about Thoreau?”
Now that’s a bit much, even though I agree that experience and ability trumps ‘certification.’ From my time teaching in the States, I also believe American schools suffer from the same conviction that certification means one is actually qualified to teach a subject in front of a classroom. But that’s a discussion for another day perhaps.
I don’t really see why this is a topic that pops up so often. Most English teachers in Korea are temporary workers (in so far as they stay 12-24 months). I don’t see the point in bemoaning some of the trivial ‘injustices’ when one has no intention of staying in the country for very long. I surely wouldn’t take kindly to temporary workers arriving in America who habitually went on about how terrible it was to be in the country.
That isn’t to say there isn’t problems with being a foreigner in Korea, but I think more can be changed through soft diplomacy; be a positive example for your nation and leave the teachers/locals around you happy to have known you. That’s going to do more good for improving Korean impressions of foreigners and ESL instructors than trying to take society to task as a new arrival.
I sure hope that didn’t come across as preachy or as if I am an apologist for discrimination, but placing one’s time here in context is required.
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GBevers your wrong, if only because you’re certain you’re right.
There has to be flexibility, and using the L1 is definiately at time appropriate and useful. I am one of those who can’t learn L2 without L1 assistance, and have had to give up classes because of the outright refusal to help me when needed in the L1. Continuing in L2 when I haven’t got the point and a small pointer in L1 would allow me to continue is pointless. The rest of the lesson is then totally lost on me, and the a next lesson is a non starter. Also maybe your professor ship has got you a grand classroom, but some of the classes I’ve been in you wouldn’t go far with your “open window” “turn knob” theory. (5 desks, a whiteboard, and an unopenable window)
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I believe it’s you’re wrong. And definitely.
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I don’t have a horse in this fight.
Just like to remark that today’s Koreans do a fine job putting their left leg in. And putting their left leg out. And they’re amongst the best at shaking it all about. If you’ve helped out with that you’ve earned your attaboy.
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#62: And “dog in this fight.”
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Darth Babaganoosh (#57) wrote:
Yes, that was the way it used to be, but I have recently read that the private schools got together and had Korea’s National Assembly change the law. However, I hope you are right.
SomeguyinKorea (#59) wrote:
They are usually looking at me with wonder and admiration.
Arghaeri (#61) wrote:
I understand what you are trying to say because I also need L1 assistance when I study a foreign language, but you get that assistance from the textbook and other students, but not from the teacher.
I think there could be a number of reasons why you were unable to learn in your foreign language class, including the possibilities that the level was too difficult for you, the teacher was lecturing to you instead of having you practice with other students, your teacher did not use my “doorknob” techniques, or maybe it was the simple fact that you were lazy, close-minded, did not prepare for your classes, or did not give the teacher a chance.
After getting a degree in Korean Language and Literature from the University of Hawaii, I immediately came to Korea and enrolled in the Yonsei Korean Language Institute in the fall of 1982. I took the placement test and only qualified for Level 3, in spite of all my efforts at U of H. My third level teacher did not use any English in her classroom, and she was the best Korean teacher I have ever had.
If you cannot learn a foreign language from a teacher that speaks only in the foreign language, then your teacher is either not using the correct methods or you have given up before even trying.
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SomeguyinKorea (#59) wrote:
Sorry, but I forgot to answer the last part of your question.
You check for understanding by having the students do the “open” and “close” exercises with you and with each other. The final test of understanding is when you say, “Open the book,” and they all open their books.
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#66,
Practice, presentation, production? I’m hardly impressed.
Besides, by ‘judicious use of the first language’ (the key word being ‘judicious’) I meant giving the students the Korean equivalent of a word or two, not whole sentences or phrases.
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…oh, and you teach at a university and your students don’t understand, “Open the book”? What did your students do? Sleep through their six years of English in junior high and high school?
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SomeguyinKorea (#68) wrote:
It only takes the leak of “a word or two” for the dam to break.
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“It only takes the leak of “a word or two” for the dam to break.”
You’ve spent far too much much time watching AFKN.
“You have obviously never taught at a provincial university in Korea. Second grade elementary students know more English than many of my college freshmen. Maybe one day I will tell you how I teach them the question, “What’s your name?””
The irony of my comment was apparently wasted on you.
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tbonetylr — I am not an F visa holder. In point of fact, I hold an E-7.
From a sociological perspective, thought, it’s still rather interesting — I didn’t know E-2 pet peeves included both “Ajeossi” ™ AND F visa holders.
PS: Which “scrutiny” do you read every six months?
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Just a quibble, but how do you know that English teachers in Korea “get paid too well”?
They might be paid too well by the standards of a native Korean, but surely the opportunity costs involved, such as having “English teacher in Korea” screwing up your resume, learning zero skills that can be used outside a hagwon, and leaving ones own country to work in another.
Moreover, surely the market determines the value of labor. For example, Japan is crawling with people wanting to be English teachers, and that has pushed the pay of English teachers down, and oftentimes the pay is even lower than that of Korea, with higher living costs. Lastly, I find it very hard to believe that any Korean would pay a foreigner “too well” for any form of labor.
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The market, in a perverted sort of way, does determine English teacher pay rates. Just as it does for pro baseball players and Wall Street CEOs, two other groups I really don’t feel sorry for. I’m not arguing that the government set wage rates — I’m just saying that in my opinion, English teachers are well compensated, especially considering how little in return they provide to society. In fact, as I made perfectly clear in the Hani 21 piece linked above, I think they are — along with the rest of the English education racket of which they are a part — a net burden on society, and a big one at that.
Now, if you’d like to argue that trained, experienced teachers make too little in Korea, I’d agree. Compensation, while great for someone fresh out of the afore mentioned Bumfuck University with a degree in basket weaving, white skin and a pulse, would not be attractive for the “highly qualified” teachers everybody talks about getting. Hence, the industry gets what it pays for (Note: Yes, I recognize that there are some hard-working, well-qualified and experienced teachers working in Korea.)
Yes, I suppose YOU would find it hard to believe.
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You’re more than halfway there, Chief, but you’re missing some key elements. The drain on society is the hakwon and the Korean public school system, as this is the payment channel through which the public’s funds flow into ‘English’.
I’ve had some pretty long-term relationships with Korean companies and a few individual salarymen. While Korea has developed some world-class industries (shipbuilding, heavy construction, chemicals, digital design), the average business is pretty incompetent. The people occupy desks with no idea what they’re doing. Actual job functions are undefined. Leadership is absent. Performance is not rewarded, incompetence not punished. Rank comes without authority, and no one except the CEO has any decision-making power. Why expect the public schools to be any different? Korean organizations are simply inefficient by nature (I mean, compared to the most advanced countries), so it would be absurd to expect that somehow the public English program would manage to produce English speakers.
So, it falls to private industry to do it. The problem is that in Korea no school that awards a diploma can operate at a profit. Without a recognized certificate, there is not guarantee that anyone has learned anything. Without profit, foreigners won’t set up effective schools. The only profitable school allowed is the hakwon, but foreign investors are excluded from that industry. Catch-22.
Yet the public’s demand for English remains strong, for obvious reasons, and so it determines the high fees hakwons can charge, passing on the foreign teacher’s cut of margin to the teacher. This is the market mechanism you refer to as inefficient, overpriced and a drain on society, and you are correct. But the foreign teachers are not to blame.
Korea has reached a high level of development by maintaining a closely protecting domestic market and exporting . To rise above this level, it would be sooooo much more efficient (less drain on society) to open up and let foreigners in. The labor market is so closed here it’s ridiculous. Korea could gain so much by just getting out of the way of itself, letting itself learn English for real instead of just churning money uselessly in a hakwon-support system, and then using that language ability to let foreign companies and workers come here so that Koreans could exchange ideas with the rest of the world.
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Robert (#74),
I think your trashing English teachers is your way of making you feel better about your own job.
Linkd (#75),
Good post.
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Linkd: That was awesome.
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Are you assuming that those with power in Korea would be *better off* allowing foreigners to set up shop in Korea? That remains to be proved. They can always send their kids overseas to have the kids completely immersed in western education. Ordinary Koreans, of course, will just get pissed off at the exorbitant fees they will surely charge, and you will see anti-english teacher sentiment get only worse, which leads to good teachers leaving, etc. Which basically means, it ain’t gonna really solve the problem.
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Fortunately, the industry won’t last forever, and soon we won’t have to listen to amateur social/political/cultural commentary from people whose most marketable skill was the mere ability to speak their native tongue.
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Well, that’s just the thing — I’m not sure it the reasons for the public’s demand for English (or, more accurately, lifelong English education) are so obvious. And yes, I agree that English teachers are not to blame for the system. But then again, I never blamed them for building the system. All I said was that the rotten system has provided them, as it provided me, with a wonderful opportunity for which we should be thankful. And it’s because of this that I have difficulty feeling all too sorry for whatever “discrimination” English teachers apparently feel.
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tinyflowers,
Mind telling us what your username was before you made the ‘tinyflowers’ ID?
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I don’t think it would be feasible for many reasons to expect hagwons to hire trained, experienced teachers. It would be highly desirable for Korean national and local education ministries or private schools to hire teachers with at least three years experience in their home countries, preferably in ESOL. There are so many changes taking place in the field, and professional development opportunities in Korea are so limited that one’s teaching skills rust after several years. I got high evaluations from students at my university and plenty of recommendation messages on the student chatboards, so I was a bit shocked my first year back when my principal sat down with me for my first post-observation conference and shared a lot of constructive advice that spurred me to improve my instruction, which has, in turn, raised student achievement.
I would love to return and collaborate with a local elementary school, but I’m a single, middle-aged woman who can’t afford to walk out on a continuing contract for half the pay I currently receive, especially since many of my ideas will be tossed out the window. It’s not only a matter of pay but professionalism. On an individual level, Korean teachers can be receptive to participating in professional development with foreigners; on an institutional level, foreigners should be seen and not heard.
I will get to share my teaching skills with a Korean graduate student in the local university’s TESOL program. She will be observing my classes a few hours a week, and I’m really excited about hosting a future Korean teacher of English.
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JW, Korea is one country with 48 mil people who can’ speak English but who spend $10 – $20 bil a year on it. The rest of world consists of 180+ countries and 6 billion people. Am I saying that SOMEWHERE out there are companies who would be happy to enter this market and teach English, so long as they could repatriate profits? Damn right I’m sure of that.
You don’t even need to regulate it, because competitive for-profit companies would be at the mercy of the consumers, who, within a couple of years, would quickly figure out which companies offer the best value for money.
But here is Korean establishment thinking: “We Koreans are crazy about English and our families will sacrifice a huge portion of their wealth to get English for their kids. We have tens of thousands of Koreans employed by the hakwon industry, and we know they don’t do a good job, but they provide work. If we let foreign companies in, then the Koreans would spend their money there, and Koreans would lose jobs.” If you don’t understand much about economics, you can see the appeal of this kind of thinking. But notice that it does not address the simple problem of getting Koreans to be capable in English.
Finally, while it is a major source of spending, I intentionally ignored overseas English spending so as not to go on too long, and because I thought the inefficiencies of such a system were obvious. Some are quantifiable, like the exchange rate risk the wild goose dads are exposed to, and some unquantifiable, like the cost of separating familes.
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Linkd, I’m not arguing that allowing foreigners to run english schools would actually increase english proficiency. Of course it would. There are two major problems though. One, if these foreigners charge market prices, anti english sentiment will go up even more. Two, I’m not so sure that those with power in Korea would WANT to make it easier for average Koreans to really improve their english proficiency. Which probably means that they’re not going to allow foreigners to find ways to provide that service to majority of Koreans.
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BTW I totally agree with Robert, as anyone else with half a brain should. If Koreans are going so far as to discriminate against their own people to hire you, just shut the fuck up unless you really really have something constructive to say.
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#83 Linkd
face the fact: if there is no incentive to become proficient in _speaking_ English (as it is the case in Korea), all your efforts are doomed to fail even if you bring in more professionalism.
same in Japan. several foreign companies are active in the ESL market. and the result? Scrooge.
(agree with the rest of your post #75)
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banging white dudes isn’t an incentive?
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JW (#85) wrote:
Well, maybe you and the other “half-brains” should form a club.
JW (#84) wrote:
Why do you think foreigner-owned language schools charging “market prices” would increase “anti-English” sentiment? Did you mean to say “above market rates”?
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Like we require girls to speak a mutually intelligible language…
Well, I’m not sure if I’m saying that either. I’m sure there are incidents of racism and discrimination that should be addressed. I just don’t think the racism/discrimination is as pervasive as a lot of folk make it out to be (at least as far as anti-white discrimination is concerned, anyway), and for such a great opportunity afforded young people from English-speaking countries, there seems to be a lot of bitching.
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I agree 100%
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shak – offhand, I’d guess it’s Netizen Kim.
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Robert Koehler: “Well, I’m not sure if I’m saying that either”
Robert, perhaps you are not sure what you are saying. I know I am not. Every time I think I have you pinned down as saying something, it seems I am wrong again.
I do agree that it is true that many people (mainly white) have come to this nation and been blessed with a lifestyle that they may otherwise not so easily have enjoyed with the qualifications and life/work experience that they had when they came. This, I think, is undoubtable.
Still, the hagwon system has many flaws and needs to be overhauled. As long as low salaries are offered, it is unlikely that qualified teachers will come and/or stay in Korea. (I would love to see some stats on the margins that hagwon owners actually make, given the amount of money charged.)
I also agree, and have argued this with Michael Hurt/Metropolitician, that the amount of racism and discrimination that exists in Korea is not what a lot of people make it out to be. Furthermore, what racism exists here often takes the form of impersonal, institutional racism that can be hard to define, rather than the much more personally directed, individual racism that we often find in western countries. This can make it on the one hand far less malign than the racism “we” are used to, but on the other hand more insidious and hard to combat.
On a separate but related note:
It does seem to me that there are, broadly speaking, five large groups of non-ethnically Korean foreigners:
1) DDD/manual laborers from poorer countries
2) ESL teachers
3) expat executives (people sent here on assignment for 2-4 years and get top notch housing & education paid, and salaries based on what they earned back home – it includes embassy staff and journalists)
4) foreign specialist employees at Korean companies (engineers, software people, etc)
5) a curious mixed class of people often made up of refugees from the preceding four classes (e.g. the former Nepalese factory worker who now runs his own restaurant, the former English teacher who [fill in the blanks], the former company worker who now translates freelance, the former embassy staffer who now has a consultancy, marriage immigrants, etc)
Each of these classes of people tend largely to mix with their own group and have comparatively similar pay scales (except for class 5, which can be anywhere on the map). Each one of these classes will have very different experiences of life in Korea (but class 5 may move through several kinds of lifestyle during their time here) and will have different perceptions of “racism.”
They will also stay here for different lengths of time. Somebody pointed out that most teachers are gone within 1 to 2 years of arrival. Teachers that stay here for more than 5 find, as Sonagi and others have, that there is little room for development or advancement. In this way life in Korea can become like a merry-go-round, and you can lose perspective of what people in your peer group back home are doing or earning while you keep doing the same thing year after year.
Moving from class 1-4 to class 5 doesn’t make one a better person, but it may show more commit to, and love of, Korea and Koreans (but this, as we have seen, is not always the case).
Sometimes it is tempting for those of us in class 5 to try to “shut the door” behind us so that others don’t follow. We can find a number of justifications for this: the others are not worthy, there are too many of us already, Korea has changed from when we came, etc.
In order to avoid a wjk-inspired disjointed riff, I should probably wind up at this point, and say that I probably don’t think all that differently from Robert, but the harsh ways that he expresses himself at times (Bumfuck university … basket weaving… white man with a pulse…fratboy lifestyles…education racket, etc) can make him sound much more curmudgeonly than he actually is.
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Absolutely true. There is a tremendous lack of management skills in almost every sector of business here and an undue reliance upon personal connection at the expense of any real expertise in managing a transaction or venture. This has been one of most persistent gripes and problems that I face when I do any business here, realizing that, at any moment, my efforts could be undermined by trivial nonsense, instigated by a mere amateur with a “kibun” requirement.
This discrimination problem masks the more urgent problem of having education policy unduly influenced by the hakwon industry. Fortunately, I notice that LMB knows this and is attempting to deal with this too. I suspect that he will do more to improve this problem as time goes by.
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hakwon actually gives middle class Koreans a feasible chance at ‘studying for a test’.
the test does not ask you to speak to a foreigner.
it asks you to answer questions, while reading, listening.
private or public Korean schools are not that much different.
Not that YOU would know. You never attended one and you don’t send your kids there, either.
that guy Linkd is very CONSERVATIVE and profit minded and economic minded when it comes to KOREA. what a hypocritical douchebag.
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hamel’s comment has been up for nearly 8 hours and no one has thought to add:
6) USFK personnel and friends
Forgotten war indeed, or am I the only one who actually reads hamel’s disjointed riffs?
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93
If you’re constantly getting shot down by a “kibun requirement”, it means you’re commiting social faux pas left and right without realizing it. But hey, if blaming discrimination for your screw ups makes you feel better, go right ahead.
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“Fortunately, the industry won’t last forever, and soon we won’t have to listen to amateur social/political/cultural commentary from people whose most marketable skill was the mere ability to speak their native tongue.”
Most marketable skill? Most westerners I know in Korea had very demanding jobs before they got tired of the rat race, returned to university and got degrees in English education.
I teach because I enjoy it (yes, I’m a qualified teacher. I have the credentials). I’ve been offered jobs that are related to my other fields of study, but I’ve lost interest in those kinds of job.
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“Fortunately, the industry won’t last forever, and soon we won’t have to listen to amateur social/political/cultural commentary from people whose most marketable skill was the mere ability to speak their native tongue.”
Gee, I thought all the bitching and moaning (see tinyflower’s deep and insightful comments in the Joseon Dynasty history thread) was directly related to the the Korean wave, not to mention conducted by a majority of Asian commenters who have supposedly taken over the Hole and are obsessed with slamming Korea at every opportunity. How surprising!
“In order to avoid a wjk-inspired disjointed riff, I should probably wind up at this point, and say that I probably don’t think all that differently from Robert, but the harsh ways that he expresses himself at times (Bumfuck university … basket weaving… white man with a pulse…fratboy lifestyles…education racket, etc) can make him sound much more curmudgeonly than he actually is.”
One of the rare threads here where the Marmot – whose opinions I very much respect, even when I don’t agree with them – comes off sounding like a bit of a dick. I think a lot of his points are on the money, but his tone and choice of words have the effect of pissing off a lot of us who are: qualified, professional, truly concerned about our students, and are, for the most part, big fans of Korea.
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You must have me confused with someone else because I never commented on that thread.
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