Oh, and while you’re at it, feel free to listen to the latest episode of SeoulPodcast.
Open Thread #86
Previous post: Koreans Look to the French to Make More Babies
Next post: TaeGukGi Television Series?
by Robert Koehler on February 7, 2009
Oh, and while you’re at it, feel free to listen to the latest episode of SeoulPodcast.
Previous post: Koreans Look to the French to Make More Babies
Next post: TaeGukGi Television Series?
{ 61 comments… read them below or add one }
Apparently, big Korean companies are doing very well even in the midst of this crisis. The relevant theory here is that 헝그리 정신 resulting from fairly recent memories of poverty still applies in Korea. Or not.
http://www.donga.com/fbin/output?f=i__&n=200902060158 (Korean)
I say buy up some Korean stocks while you can get em at a good price.
Podcast sucks
http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/SC.pnf?c=gern,P
Got to agree with hardy about the podcast, I turned it off after about 25-30 min, it got really annoying with their rants about Dave’s etc. It needed a serious editing. He needs to do a one on one with you, Robert.
CNN’s Quickvote is the biggest idiot-magnet on the Internet.
“Do you think snow phobia is a genuine medical condition?”
“Do you think there will be world peace in your lifetime?”
Quickvote leads to a loss of 1,000 brain cells per click/vote.
There are no stupid questions… except for the ones posed by CNN’s Quickvote.
BSG … the waiting between episodes hurts more the closer we get to the end.
Per Robert Reich, a labor secretary under President Bill Clinton.
I guess I’m glad my money is in Kookmin then. I can only hope they fare better though they still need to lower their debt to capital ratio more than they have already, IMHO.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/02/07/business/AP-Banks-on-the-Brink.html
hardyandtiny (http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/SC.pnf?c=gern,P)
Now that Obama re-did the stem-cell limitations, when is Geron gonna deliver something really cool?
Just curious, ’cause I want a Lee Hyo-Rhi clone… but mine would be trained to be a talented dancer.
OK, cheap shot.
I apologize.
To dancing clones.
Are the Norks in town?
I could have sworn I saw Kim Gye-gwan on Madison and 50th this afternoon.
check out Yuna Kim setting a world record: I haven’t followed figure skating since I was in grade school, having my older sisters foist it on me, but this is an amazing routine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICzURSZlAvU
Linkd’s weekend economic reader:
FT alphaville
“Part of Obama’s $819bn stimulus bill currently being debated in the Senate contains this little gem:
In short – infrastructure projects funded by the stimulus would have to use US-made steel.
The domestic appeal of such a move is pretty obvious. But, should it pass the Senate, it will come at a cost — notably the ire of US trading partners.
Canada has already voiced its concern and the European Union is doing so today. We would hazard a guess that the clause is also unlikely to engender any good feeling from China, currently reeling from its own labour problems. Angering your biggest trading partner and treasury-buyer, during a global recession, when you’re issuing large amounts of debt to fund your own stimulus packages may not be the smartest thing to do.
But aside from the dubious international relations involved, Dartmouth economics professor Douglas Irwin points us to the economic hazard, with a bit of historical precedent:
Adam Smith would be rolling in his grave.
————————–
Willem Buiter
“The odious US House of Representatives has tagged a Buy American clause onto the Obama administration’s $819 bn (or more) fiscal stimulus bill. If this were to become law, US federal spending would, wherever possible, be restricted to goods and services produced by US companies. The main promotor of this act of global economic vandalism was the US steel industry, but other import-competing industries have lobbied also. It is quite likely that the Buy American net will be cast even more widely when the Senate gets its turn at the fiscal stimulus act.
There is little doubt that if the Buy American provisions of the Economic Stimulus Package were to become law, this would amount to an economic declaration of war on the rest of the world. The response of the assembled non-US finance ministers in Davos made this clear. Retaliation from the EU countries and the rest of the world would follow swiftly. Because this disastrous US Congressional actions follows so closely on Treasury Secretary Geithner’s declaration that China is manipulating its currency, it is essential that the Obama administration draw a clear line in the sand. If anything like the Buy American clause inserted by the House survives in the bill president Obama gets on his desk, he must veto it. The questionable value of the fiscal stimulus is overwhelmed by the unquestionable domestic and global harm caused by the Buy American clause. If president Obama fails to veto a protectionism-laced bill, it will be clear that we have a wuss in the White House. If such is the case, God help us all.”
———————–
AP:
“The compromise reached between a handful of GOP moderates led Susan Collins of Maine, the White House and its Senate allies stripped $108 billion in spending from Obama’s plan, including cutbacks in projects that likely would give the economy a quick lift, like $40 billion in aid to state governments for education and other programs.
Yet it retained items that also probably won’t help the economy much, such as $650 million to help people without cable receive digital signals through their old-fashioned televisions or $1 billion to fix problems with the 2010 Census.
Among the most difficult cuts for the White House and its liberal allies to accept was the elimination of $40 billion in aid to states, money that economists say is a relatively efficient way to pump up the economy by preventing layoffs, cuts in services or tax increases.
“It reduces a number of highly stimulative items like state fiscal relief … and largely substitute for it some large tax cuts that are highly ineffective as stimulus,” said Bob Greenstein, founder of the liberal Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. “So your net result is a bill that gets significantly less bang for the buck.” ”
——————
Buiter again:
The “Good bank solution”
“…the [IMF] recommends that the authorities take the distressed assets from the banks’ balance sheets through ‘bad bank’ arrangements.
Note that we are no longer just talking of ‘toxic’ assets, that is, assets whose value cannot be assessed with any degree of certainty because of their complexity. We are now talking about bad or impaired assets that include the toxic stuff but also a large chunk of plain vanilla assets (real estate loans, simple mortgage products, consumer loans, corporate debt) that have become impaired because the borrowers/issuers are at risk of going belly-up the old-fashioned way. With a long and deep recession still ahead of us, the quantity of ‘conventional’ bad assets on the books of the banks will escalate.
There is a problem with creating a government-owned and government-funded bad bank that acquires the bad assets from the existing banks and manages the portfolio of bad assets, unconstrained by liquidity and short-term profitability considerations, either by selling them if and when the markets for these assets recover or by holding them to maturity. The problem is that the bad assets have to be valued. Some bad assets are transparently bad. If there is a liquid market for these assets there is no problem in valuing them. If there is no liquid market and can be valued using reverse auctions or model-based techniques. But much of the toxic stuff is so obscure, so heterogeneous and held by so few parties that they are virtually impossible to value. An auction would become a bilateral negotiation.
The favoured solution of the banks and other institutions holding these toxic assets is that the state pay them over the odds – preferably face value. That would be unfair and costly from a budgetary point of view. It would also represent a massive example of moral hazard by creating incentives for future excessive risk taking in the confident expectation that Mother State will bail you out….
There is an alternative solution to the problem of valuing the toxic assets. It would not involve nationalising the existing banks. Instead the state would create one or more new ’good’ banks – all state-owned and state-funded to begin with. Effectively, some or all of the existing banks would become bad banks. The good banks would acquire the deposits and the good assets of the bad banks or legacy banks. The good assets are, by definition, easy to value. The creation of multiple good banks may be desirable to encourage competition. One could even create a good bank for every existing bank: New Citi, New RBS, New ING etc.
New lending business, indeed all new business activity would be undertaken only by the new good banks. To address the credit crunch, government guarantees or insurance could be provided for new loans and investments made by the good banks. No further guarantees should be extended to existing assets, either in the good banks or in the legacy bad banks. The good banks would receive their capital from the state. Other funding would be provided by the transfer of the deposits from the bad legacy banks, through loans from the state or through the sale of bonds by the new good banks to the state. The state could also guarantee new loans to the new good banks from the private sector or bonds issued by the new good banks and purchased by the private sector.
As regards the the legacy bad banks, the easiest and cleanest way to proceed is to stop them from doing any new business on the asset side of their balance sheets: no new lending and no new investment. They would also not be permitted to take new deposits. A simple way to ensure this is to take away their banking licenses. They would exist only to manage and ultimately to run down the portfolio of bad and toxic assets they hold on their balance sheets. Maturing liabilities could be refinanced if that made more sense than accelerating the sale of the assets.
Taking away the banking licenses of most of the existing large universal banks in Europe and the USA would be appropriate because recent developments have demonstrated that the existing institutions, managements and boards are not fit for purpose. They have failed as banks, even if they have not (yet) failed in the technical, legal sense of becoming insolvent. For most of them the past, present and anticipated future financial support of the state is the only thing that stands between them and bankruptcy….”
——————
Finally, the comment section on this thread of Brad Setser’s blog is an interesting current discussion, except for commenter Indian Investor, who is kinda like Setser’s wjk, but remains unbanned.
Some pretty bad forest fires in Oz at the moment, 100 km/hour winds and 46 degree celsius temps (115 f), 76 dead, whole towns wiped out. Hope things improve tomorrow…
BBC:
*Wikipedia “galaxies” quotes an estimate that there are 100billion galaxies in the ‘observable’ universe, whatever that is.
R. Elgin (#7),
I hope you are not keeping all your eggs in one basket. I think Korea only guarantees up to 40 million won in deposits per bank. If you have more than that, you should put it in a different bank, just to be safe.
Indeed “g-man” but, in the words of my Kookmin representative, “what other banks could I split my money up into that I trust (in Korea)?”
I am currently making arrangements to deal with this problem.
He said they were insured up to 40 million.
Linkd @#12: “… less than one”? Perhaps some don’t count the Earth’s civilization as intelligent?
You had to ask didn’t you? What astronomers mean by `observable universe’, if they ever mean anything precise by it, is all the universe that it is theoretically possible to see right now from Earth. Basically because the universe has a finite age, some parts of the universe are so far away that they have not yet had time to send light signals to us, and so we cannot currently see them, even in principle (but everyone believes these regions exist).
Of course, in practice, it is not possible to see anything past the surface of last scattering, which is when the universe became cool enough to be transparent to light. This occured around 300,000 years after the beginning, or around z=1,000 in astronomer speak.
In reality, no one has ever been able to come even close to counting all the galaxies that it’s supposedly feasible to see. The current best effort is the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, which tries to cover about 25% of the sky to about z=0.4 (we’re at z=0 and there aren’t many galaxies to see beyond z~5).
For what it’s worth, if you (or your kids) are interested in flying around the universe, or at least the parts that have been mapped so far, you can download a free 3D Galaxy Explorer from the SDSS site.
I once went to a seminar by the blind guy in Contact who really does work for SETI. He basically said that they were able to rule out Type III civilizations in all the nearest galaxies and all the nearest star systems have been searched and no of them are using wasteful radio antennae (unlike Earth). Not very impressive if you ask me.
I’ve no idea where your quoted friend gets his 361 number from. From his ass probably. If you use the Drake equation the best you can say is that the probability of intelligent life existing elsewhere in the universe is somewhere between 0 and 1.
Are Korea-interested people keeping an eye on this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7876543.stm
This may be interesting for those of you involved in comparing educational systems in the East and the West.
http://vccv.posterous.com/learning-and-scientific-reason
Perhaps not massively surprising, but it is based on an article in Science: “Learning and Scientific Reasoning”, Science, 30 January
2009: Vol. 323. no. 5914, pp. 586 – 587
Won that is, which is roughly around 29,124.80 USD, which not a whole lot of money.
More econ (no links cuz #11 got spam-trapped all day):
On Thursday (Sept 18, 2008), at 11am the Federal Reserve noticed a tremendous draw-down of money market accounts in the U.S., to the tune of $550 billion was being drawn out in the matter of an hour or two. The Treasury opened up its window to help and pumped a $105 billion in the system and quickly realized that they could not stem the tide. We were having an electronic run on [US] banks. They decided to close the operation, close down the money accounts and announce a guarantee of $250,000 per account so there wouldn’t be further panic out there.
If they had not done that, their estimation is that by 2pm that afternoon, $5.5 trillion would have been drawn out of the money market system of the U.S., would have collapsed the entire economy of the U.S., and within 24 hours the world economy would have collapsed. It would have been the end of our economic system and our political system as we know it….
—————
…Economists are failing to express anything resembling consensus on the most basic questions of economic policy. Is fiscal stimulus desirable, or even possible? Some say yes, some say no. In a recession, is it best to cut taxes or raise spending, or both, or neither? They disagree about that. How should governments mend their broken financial systems? They disagree about that too.
I had thought they would at least agree that raising trade barriers at a time like this must be a bad idea. Then I read Paul Krugman, Nobel laureate, Princeton professor, and New York Times columnist, explain that raising tariffs – though perhaps unwise for other reasons – “can make the world better off”. “There is a short-run case for protectionism,” he went on, “and that case will increase in force if we don’t have an effective economic recovery programme.” What are his readers to make of this? Are all the economists who say otherwise just wrong?
This impression of disarray – that economics has nothing clear to say on these questions – is not the fault of economics as such. It is a mostly false impression created by some of its leading public intellectuals, Mr Krugman among them.
Economics outside the academy has become the continuation of politics by other means. If you wish to know what Mr Krugman thinks on any policy question, do not read his scholarly writings; see which policies are advocated by the progressive wing of the Democratic party. Mr Krugman agrees with liberal Democrats about most things, and for the rest gives as much cover as the discipline of economics can provide – which, given its scientific limitations, is plenty. He does this even on matters where, if his scholarly work is any guide, the economics is firmly against his allies. Liberal Democrats are protectionists. Mr Krugman is not, but politics comes first.
——————-
The US economy is poised to be smacked by another wave of mortgage defaults that could cause as much damage as the subprime meltdown.
According to Credit Suisse, $1,000bn (£694bn, €772bn) of Alt-A and Option ARM mortgages – the dubious loans used to propel home sales through the final years of the housing bubble – are scheduled to have their interest rates reset from now through to summer of 2011.
Mr Tilson sees little way to avoid this scenario. “All you need to do,” he says, “is look back at what was written between 2005 and 2007, see the reset dates, and the current default rates and it’s pretty clear what’s going to happen.” In a typical securitised trust of 2007 Alt-A mortgages assembled by Lehman Brothers, Mr Tilson found 43 per cent of the underlying loans had defaulted 17 months after the security was issued.
Extrapolating from current non-performance figures, he thinks more than 50 per cent of Option ARM mortgages are likely to default, with a comparable proportion of Alt-A loans defaulting.He fears the current equity and debt markets are not reflecting the potential impact this will have on the economy going into 2010 and 2011…
———————-
The yield on 10-year US Treasury bonds – the world’s benchmark cost of capital – has jumped from 2pc to 3pc since Christmas despite efforts to talk the rate down.
The “real” cost of capital is rising as the slump deepens. This is textbook debt deflation. It was not supposed to happen. The Bernanke doctrine assumes that the Fed can bring down the whole structure of interest costs, first by slashing the Fed Funds rate to zero, and then by making a “credible threat” to buy Treasuries outright with printed money.
Mr Bernanke has been repeating this threat since early December. But talk is cheap. As the Fed hesitates, real yields climb ever higher. Plainly, the markets do not regard Fed rhetoric as “credible” at all.
Governments are borrowing frantically to fund their bail-outs and cover a collapse in tax revenue. The US Treasury alone needs to raise $2 trillion in 2009.
Where is the money to come from? China, the Pacific tigers and the commodity powers are no longer amassing foreign reserves ($7.6 trillion). Their exports have collapsed. Instead of buying a trillion dollars of extra bonds each year, they have become net sellers. In aggregate, they dumped $190bn over the last fifteen weeks…
——————-
Q: How long will be before we can tell if the US and UK governments’ plans to rescue the banks prove effective or not? If they don’t when do you think lending will recover to near-normal levels?
Canh Humphries, Beckenham
A (Roubini): There are three basic approaches to a clean-up of the banking system: recapitalization together with purchase by a bad bank of toxic assets; recapitalization together with guarantees – after a first loss – of the bad assets; outright government takeover (call it nationalization) of insolvent banks to be cleaned after takeover and then resold to the private sector.
Of the three options the first two have serious flaws: in the bad bank model the government may overpay for the bad assets as the true value of them is uncertain; even in the guarantee model there can be such implicit over-payment (or over-guarantee that is not properly priced).
In the bad bank model the government has the additional problem of having to manage all the bad assets it purchased.
Thus, paradoxically nationalization may be a more market friendly solution: it creates the biggest hit for common and preferred shareholders of clearly insolvent institutions and – possibly – even the unsecured creditors in case the bank insolvency is too large; it provides a fair upside to the tax-payer; it can resolve the problem of government managing the bad assets by reselling most of the assets and liabilities of the bank to new private shareholders after a clean-up of the bank.
—————
Q: Do you believe in the projections made by the Chinese officials predicting a return to steady growth when all the planned stimulus measures have been implemented?
Fiorini Mauro, Belgium
A: China is now experiencing a hard landing and I predict that Chinese growth in 2009 may not be higher than 5 per cent.
For a country that needs a growth rate of about 10 per cent to move millions of poor rural farmers to the modern urban industrial sector, a growth rate of 5 per cent would effectively be a hard landing.
Fourth quarter gross domestic product growth in China – measured on a quarter to quarter annualized basis – was closer to 0 per cent than to the 6.8 per cent year-over-year growth reported by the Chinese government.
Other factors also suggest a hard landing: There was a sharp fall in generation of electricity in the fourth quarter. China’s purchasing manager’s index was well below 50 and closer to 40 for six months in a row; there has been a sharp fall in imports, mostly of intermediate inputs and raw materials….
In South Korea, a reluctance to issue sell recommendations has already taken hold. Of the 17,335 reports issued by South Korean brokers in 2008, there were 14,903 “buy” recommendations but not a single “sell”, according to FnGuide, a Seoul-based financial-information company. At best, that reflects poor analysis: the stockmarket tumbled 41% during the year.
But something more sinister may be afoot. JPMorgan, an American investment bank, was the target of an investigation by the Financial Supervisory Service after it suggested that problem loans at South Korea’s Hana Bank may be higher than the bank’s own estimates. Switzerland’s Credit Suisse was denounced by Hyundai Securities, which publicly castigated the firm after it halved its target price for the South Korean broker. One analyst recalls a threatening telephone call from a sushi-restaurant owner after he issued a “sell” recommendation: “I have many sharp knives. Stay away from dark alleys,” the man said.
Eujin:
Thanks so much for the 3-D tour of the galaxy link, but I couldn’t run it because I kept getting an error message saying something about not having a dvsomething.dll file. The folder shows one .dll file with another letter sequence. My third graders have been reading about the moon and we’ve taken the topic further to talk about space in general. I would love to have my kids give this program a try.
#13 & #18
Existence of independently evolved life on other planets (especially intelligent life) would be of obviously tremendous benefit to macro evolutionary theory. It would be a definitive “proof” of macro-evolution.
However, prohibitively large distances (light-years) presents an interesting dilemma. To prove macro-evolution by demonstrating extraterrestrial life requires that humans be able to live forever (or what Scripture refers to as “eternal life”).
Some economist famously said, there are two certainties in life: death and taxes.
What are the “governing dynamics” of an economic system of a society where people live forever? What would such a society look like?
Elgin:
No one who can get their money out of Korea has any business with even that amount in a Korean bank.
Surely you didn’t enjoy the sudden devaluation of your life savings.
Dogbertt wrote (#27):
Why not? You don’t think the won will regain its value? Or do you think it will devalue further?
If people live and work in Korea and are paid in won, why wouldn’t they keep their money in a Korean bank? It would be stupid for people to cash out now if they do not have to because the won will eventually regain its value. In the meantime, they can enjoy the higher interest rates that Korean banks pay on savings deposits.
It looks like Obama and the Democrats are going to put the US into so much debt that it won’t be long before the dollar goes into the shitter, which should be good for those of us with won deposits.
By the way, I saw Obama’s press conference today and, again, I got the impression that Obama is just an American version of Roh Mu-hyun. Obama is nothing but an arrogant bullshitter who is not qualified for the job he holds. If you think American is bad off now, just wait until four years from now. George Bush will be considered a hero.
Sonagi,
That’s too bad it doesn’t work. I’m not really the one to help you fix it. You do need a 3D graphics accelerator card and the DirectX8 software linked on the page. You can report bugs to the guy that wrote it, but he may not be maintaining it anymore. I doubt you’d get more than a few seconds of entertainment out of it for third graders anyway. Basically it’s a lot of white dots, each representing a galaxy, that you can fly around. There are no pretty colors and it gives the somewhat misleading impression that the Earth is at the center of the universe and galaxies only exist in certain directions. Cool in the sense that it’s the largest map every made, but it’s probably not worth your effort fixing it if it’s buggy.
For third graders I don’t really know. This film is quite cool if they can sit through six and a half minutes. It has some big words in it and is more aimed at curious adults, but lays on the whole “the universe is a really big place” heavily. The IBM powers of ten film is still a classic, or the parody which is more suitable for grown-up M-holers.
The Moon is actually one of the best things to look at through a small-sized telescope, the type of telescope that the local museum or college might have. Especially the bit just between the shadow and the light which is called the “terminator”. Organising a cloudless night-time trip with a waxing/waning crescent might be a bit difficult with third graders though. If you know what you’re doing you can actually see Venus in the middle of the day with the naked eye. I was impressed the first time I saw that.
It’s getting a bit tough for me to remember what it was like being a third grader. I do remember thinking it was weird that my grandparents went to school before the discovery of Pluto, at a time when they only knew about eight planets. I would’ve been even more surprised to learn that my grandkids will go to school and only learn about eight planets. I also remember watching popular science films in high school and not understanding a word they were saying.
# 22,
Linkd, economics is like meteorology in the 1930s. The general principles are sound but there doesn’t exist the right tools to accurately apply those general principles. Some day there will be something akin to weather satellites for economics, but we are not there yet… and we may never be there because part of economics is based on human psychology and we humans can be remarkably unpredictable.
I think economists should do a few undergrad courses in hard science, like physics or chemistry.
Economics uses hard numbers, and you can get into some pretty esoteric algorithms with it. But as you say, it’s still an attempt to characterize the behavior of people.
People who have studied hard science learn when you CANNOT use hard numbers. They can identify situations where the problem that has been proposed simply isn’t one that can be solved using a spreadsheet. Trouble is, the spreadsheets look so beautiful, filled up with all the silly assumptions economists (and finance guys – another topic) stuff them with. Those beautiful and complex spreadsheets create the illusion of rigor.
Hard scientists recognize the limits of their models and methods as a matter of course. Economists, on the other hand, seem all to often to ignore them. In their defense, it is harder to see in their discipline where the science ends and the guesswork begins.
Linkd,
Here is the thing about deficit spending… Debt by governments is relative. It doesn’t matter the size of the debt but what matters is the debt relative to GDP. For example, what’s worse? A $10 trillion dollar debt may seem very high, but it’s about 65% of GDP. Back in the end of World War II, the national debt was $222 billion but a whopping 122% of the GDP! In 1954, apparently the height of America’s prosperity years the debt was $381 billion or 71% of GDP!
The Chinese, Japanese and Koreans have no choice but to buy U.S. treasury bills as long as the U.S. can pay the interest rates. The U.S. gets a great deal. Americans go to their local WalMart, buy Made in China, the Chinese take the dollars and does it convert it to yuan? Sometimes, but much of it they use to buy U.S. Treasury bills. Why? It’s dollars, it’s an international currency. Having a boat load of dollars in your treasury makes your own currency stable. Having hundreds of billion dollars of U.S. treasury bills makes you look legit to the international financial industry.
Now, is this system sustainable in the long run? No. But recessions don’t usually last more than three years. We have at least that much time…
Eujin, just because you study another discipline, and think that a very well funded legitimate subject like astrobiology should not be taking money from your subject doesn’t mean that you should be making such unfounded presumptions about their sampling methods – as they would not accuse the physicists of getting their numbers on shapes of the universe and extra dimensions out of their bum holes.
Linkd,
Here is some reading for yah.
http://www.rgemonitor.com/us-monitor/252860/the_us_national_debt_level_is_the_sky_really_falling
Nouriel Roubini is an economist I respect even more than Krugman. He doesn’t have the ego of Krugman either. He actually returned my emails when I was an undergrad whereas Krugman told me to “refer to book such and such…”
Back in September Roubini said that the real estate financial crisis was going to be a god awful mess. I didn’t believe him at the time and it turns out he wasn’t being an alarmist for no reason. It’s turning out that he’s more right than a lot of other economists. Nothing speaks to a competent economist more than a solid track record.
I learned a lot of economics at USC in between chasing tail. Some people here may complain about my grammatical shortcomings, but that’s because I never took an English class in college. My last “college” English course was AP English Lit back in high school, for which I got a score of 4 out of 5. My favorite economics professor? Professor Colly, who taught international finance and was ironically a full time professor at UCLA’s Anderson Business School and just teaching classes at USC part time. The dude was both funny and weird. 2nd generation Irish with a Persian wife and he was the faculty advisor for the Korean American Student Association. He had frazzled hair and looked like an Irish Einstein.
You don’t need to introduce Nouriel Roubini to me, I’ve been a fan for years, too.
As for “only Debt-to-GDP” matters – just keep telling yourself that. If you earn $120,000 a year and you owe me $12,000, you feel pretty good with your debt position – it’s not even 2 months worth of take-home pay.
I, on the other hand, just worry about the $12,000, an absolute number. And I (as China) have noticed that no one else seems to want to lend you money, and that you’ve announced spending plans this year that will increase your debt to $24,000. And you haven’t even called me up and asked me if I’ll lend you the money. On top of that, you sold me another $5,000 worth of stock in your supposedly world-class banks last year, and now I’ve lost more than half that money. You’re looking like less and less of a good deal, and I’m starting to look like a chump. And your $120,000 in annual income might be keeping you warm at night, but I’m wondering when I’m going to start seeing some payback. And I’m wondering why I’m the only one out here with my ass on the line for your non-stop borrowing.
Don’t tell me (the Chinese) that absolute numbers don’t matter. And maybe start showing me a little more respect while you’re at it. We need each other, buddy.
Some people here may complain about my grammatical shortcomings…
No complaints here, you’re english is perfect! (I’m assuming you were born in Korea?)
I’m also a fan of your posts, second only to Sir Marmalot IMHO!
Linkd,
How about this then? The interest payments as percentage of the national budget?
https://www.policyarchive.org/bitstream/handle/10207/4301/RS22354_20051227.pdf?sequence=1
As you can see, those numbers are even better than the debt to GDP ratio. You gotta chill out and stop scaring people.
If the Chinese want Americans to keep buying their crap, they will keep coming to the Fed to by treasury bills, just like the Japanese did in the 80′s.
And the dollars to pay that interest come from….where?
Same place all dollars come from: thin air. It is true that every economist, including Roubini, who said America’s deficit would have to reverse course is still waiting to be proven right. But each dollar is still a claim on the US’s economic output. So, let’s see: we’ve been through dot-com wealth creation, you have no heavy industry for manufacturing anymore, you’ve just seen a financial sector crash from a peak of about a third of stock market earnings being generated by financial engineering…so, what sector is the growth going to come from next?
I know, the US is still the pony to bet on, and it has a better chance of “innovating” its way into some sort of growth than any other economy, but in argument against the basic math of exponentially increasing numbers of thin-air-dollars backed by a stagnant or barely-growing economy leading to a necessary devaluation of those dollars you’re unloading onto the Chinese, your only response is “well, it’s always worked before”.
I appreciate that this response is actually a pretty good one. No evidence trumps the empirical. But from the point of view of someone who really wants to understand what the hell is going on, (and who has both scientific training AND money in the US markets), it’s not enough to just sit back and assume that the Chinese will keep swallowing whatever you dish out. They will do whatever is in their interests, naturally, and that is an evolving calculation. If feeding plastic crap into Walmart in exchange for fiat dollars keeps their people working, they’ll do it. If they find something else their people can do that generates something better than devaluing dollars, then they’ll do that.
Linkd, ironically enough, someone (a scientist) was telling me only a few weeks ago that the problem is that finance houses hired too many science grads, who didn’t know where the numbers end and reality begins.
I tend to agree more with your position, although I’m not sure a few undergrad courses in physics or chemistry would help. A couple of (related) points about the hard-science-training versus economics business;
1) Hard science teaches students that there is a correct answer independent of what anyone else thinks. In the markets, the correct answer is the one that makes money, and things make money based on what everyone else thinks. Fear and greed in Keynes’s words. If everyone shorts a good company for no rational reason, then that company very quickly becomes a bad company. I’ve seen it happen.
2) The weather doesn’t look at all the weather forecasts and decide whether to rain or not based on predictions. The weather also doesn’t decide whether to rain or not based on what it thinks all the other parts of the atmosphere are going to be doing. In the markets everyone talks about recession (you talk about recession) and it all helps it along handily.
3) If you really think that hard scientists know when the numbers they get out of their glorified spreadsheets make sense, just look at Duncan Forgan and his “current research estimates that there are at least 361 intelligent civilisations in our Galaxy”. Admittedly there’s also a problem with how the media reports it. And no, I don’t have anything against astrobiologists.
No, I did not. It makes me long on Korea at a time when I was starting to think short. I don’t think Korea is a good long play. However, I don’t think America is a good short play — at least for the next 5-10 years. Is ten years “long” or “short”? At any rate, it will take me through to age 50.
Brendon,
Think J-Curve.
THIS is a million times better than those stupid English Villages.
Linkd,
You are forgetting something. The Brenton Woods system that (inadvertently) made the dollar the reserve currency of the developed world (and the aspiring developing world)!
Pegging the dollar to gold collapsed in 1971 so the value of the dollar was held by fiat. However, it’s a very powerful fiat because a decent dollar is not just in America’s interest, but it’s in anyone who does international trade’s interest. Like it or not, that’s the system and the U.S. can get away with printing money to get outselves out of this current mess for the short term. The world will want us to print more dollars and they will gleefullly buy them up! Yeah, it’s not fair. Yeah, it’s not even right from a moral perspective but by the virtue of winning WWII and the Cold War the dollar is the currency that holds together international trade and globalization as we currently see it. Without the dollar, international finance and trade would not be recognizable and things may return to mercantilism.
Boo hoo all you want. It’s not my fault that half a million loyalists (traitors in Thomas Paine’s mind) wussed out and went north (to join a bunch of French wannabes) to found a pale reflection of America’s glory in igloo-land. Nor is it my fault that the Canadian dollar is the Canadian bacon of the international financial community. I’m just here telling you what the rules are and the rules allow the U.S. to deficit spend and print their money out of the current economic mess. The rest of the world will pay for it because they have no other choice. Brilliant!
The disclaimer here is that we can do it for about 3 years tops, then the floor starts to get mushy and the doomsday prospects you like to share might actually have a hint of possibility. But just a hint…
My, my…
You use the word “rules”, but you know enough to admit that the system is based on faith.
My understanding is that Bretton Woods collapsed because the French called the US on its promise to reimburse every $35 dollars for an ounce of gold. The Treasury didn’t have enough gold, so it simply stopped doing it. Why didn’t it have enough gold? Because it had printed too many dollars to continue the match-up. One option might have been to revalue to $40, or $50. But of course no government wants to give up the right to print as much money as it wants, so it simply canceled the whole idea. It was the honest thing to do, actually. Bretton Woods II followed, a system based purely on faith, not rules. Faith that the US would manage the world’s reserve currency responsibly, and maintain its value.
What is the value of a dollar? A very esoteric question, but at least we have gold. The fact that gold is no longer quite $35 an ounce reflects the profligacy of US printing presses.
I do not deny the importance of reserve currencies for developing countries, and certainly not the importance of the US dollar and US market for stabilizing international finance. Even when the US manages its finances recklessly, you will be given more leeway than other countries precisely because of the importance of US consumers to the entire world economy.
Still, a decade after the launch of the Euro, most countries have shifted about a third of their reserves into Euros. This is simple good sense, given the fact that the US shows little intention of safeguarding the value of the dollar. China has pretty much all its reserves in dollars, though, more a political decision than an economic one, just like Iran’s refusal to accept dollars in payment for oil.
You’ve heard of the ‘financial balance of terror’; the idea that any large dollar holder (NE Asia or the Gulf countries) could collapse the value of the dollar by releasing a large amount into the market, thereby inducing other central banks to dump their dollars too. This is mutually assured destruction, of course, but it clearly illustrates that the value of the dollar is maintained by faith, not by rules. Of course China would take a huge loss on its $1+ trillion of reserves if the dollar tanked. But the goal of China’s government is to stay in power, not to make money.
I can’t see a dollar dump by the central banks happening. It’s too scary to imagine, which seems to be your justification for calling Bretton Woods II a ‘rule’. Sort of like Citi must survive simply because it’s too big to fail. We’ll see…
In any case, it’s like we’re all standing under a platform supported by one perfectly positioned toothpick. On the platform is an elephant who keeps eating. No one will yank the toothpick of course, but we need to keep making small adjustments as the elephant gets fatter and fatter. Sometimes the elephant lurches and we all grab that toothpick and hold on for dear life (the current situation of dollar strength), and in quieter times, we try positioning other supports in case the toothpick breaks (the shift to Euros).
A major complicating factor is that all of us under this platform speak different languages and have different interests, and some of us actively hate each other. More faith.
During quiet times, while the platform is stable, it’s easy to say “See, this is working out just fine! Why rock the boat?” Now that the elephant is lurching, the people who have been trying to point out the relatively ludicrous structure of the world we inhabit are getting more airplay, whereas they used to be more easily ignored.
I’m not fear-mongering. All this stuff just happens to interest the hell out of me. Mrs. Linkd is more of an expert on who’s sleeping with who in Hollywood. The cut/pastes I occasionally put up here are things I provide for the edification of anyone else who might be interested in tuning into the current discussion in the financial press, and perhaps as conversation starters.
To wit: it’s been nice talking to you.
Linkd,
I like talking to you as well, but sometimes you like to foam in the mouth when you like to selectively cut and paste economic pontifications. Also, you blame everything on the U.S. Well, Europe also make questionable financial decisions as well. Let’s not forget that Britain is also going through a similar financial meltdown.
Canada didn’t join the sub-prime mortgage feeding trough that many other Western developed nations did so you do have that moral stool to stand on. As a consequence Canada is probably in the best economic shape out of the G8. However, that doesn’t give you the license to call the U.S. an Economic Satan. Yes, I know I complain about the U.S. too, particularly its shortsighted corporate and industry policy, etc. However, the financial system in today’s economy owes much to the U.S. and one shouldn’t forget that. America did this with the expressed purpose of fostering world trade and interdependent connections so it would make global war, like WWI and WWII, less likely.
At the end of the day I believe your negative assessments are myopic and will ultimately turn untrue or at the very least, not nearly as severe as you foresee. We just know too much about economics for things to blow up like they did in 1929. For example, your thoughts on national debt and the deficit. Pure size of those things are irrelevant and I was right. I don’t know what your rationale is. Do you want to be a non-Korean Minerva and have articles written about you in the Economist? I dunno.
And stop bashing the U.S. all the time. Yes America has made some boneheaded financial decisions that have put the entire world’s economy in jeopardy. However, the U.S. has helped craft the world that makes this kind of worldwide wealth creation possible. Show a little respect.
All I know is if I start seeing a modern repeat with the dollar of those old black and white photos of 1930s German housewives tossing big stacks of Deutschemark bills into the wood-burners for heating during winter, then we’re officially in trouble.
NK, you won’t see that happen. The U.S. didn’t lose WWI and have vengeful countries impose onerous war debts on them.
Foaming at the mouth? Is that how I sound? Indeed, I’m in the wrong line of work as a writer if I’ve messed up my tone on this thread that badly.
While I think there is nothing so droll on all the internet as “Go back and read what I said”, I’ll point out that I didn’t write anything myself until #31, which is a sober comment about economists and the scientific comment. Everything before that was 100% cut and paste, and, I think, a pretty good round-up of current economic news. Nobody was treated to an opinion of mine until I read your opinion that debt only matters in relation to GDP.
As for ‘blaming the US’: I am categorically NOT anti-American. Some institutions have made poor choices and implemented poor policies. I thought that was understood when I wrote ‘the US’, but I suppose I should be more explicit. It also should not be assumed that by pasting someone else’s words I fully agree with them.
“scientific method”, not “comment”
was in Manhattan the beginning of the week and the frontpage headline was beautiful: “A-HOLE” with a picture of A-Rod. I would have recommended A-Fraud as an alternative.
His apology with peter gammons was obviously crafted by his PR people and rehearsed. It was 100% not genuine. It could have been wrapped up in 6 or 7 words: “I’m sorry THAT I GOT CAUGHT.”
Yeah, that guy definitely belongs on the yankees.
I’ve not read every single word of every single comment by Linkd, but I don’t perceive his opinions about the direction of the US economy as anti-American. Our savings rate plummeted to zero over the last 20 years and is inching up again owing to recession fears. The federal deficit has been growing for the last 8 years. Consumers and the government have been spending during a period of economic prosperity, rather than saving for the expected downtown. Because of this, the recession will be longer and more painful.
Even if we do see a repeat of the Great Depression, we should remember that the worst economic period in this century lasted only four years. By 1934, we were growing again, and by 1936, our GDP had returned to pre-Depression levels. None of my ancestors perished because of the Depression, and I don’t expect to starve to death during these lean times. My colleague from Brazil has recounted to me how people in her country sacrificed while their country paid back IMF loans. Whatever hardships we face, we CAN get through them if we believe in ourselves and share the burden to the extent that we can. My school district is avoiding layoffs by not filling some vacancies and furloughing non-essential staff for a few days to a few weeks. I would rather take a pay cut than see my colleagues laid off.
The world is in a recession. However, I haven’t felt any chucnks of the sky raining down on my head yet.
A wise choice. After all, the average U.S. female lifespan is only what, 78 years or so?
I was in Manhattan at the beginning of the week too — what a coinkydink!
“A-Fraud”‘s a good one, but the NY Post beat you to it — or else they owe you royalties.
“A-Fraud” was taken long time ago, due to Mr. Rodriguez’s repeated chokejob in playoffs. Personally, I believe “A-Roid” is the way to go. To the point, and therefore elegant.
Seriously, A-Rod needs to move to Dodgers or Angels. LA fans have the proper perspective of life and sports — life matters, and sports, for all the fun they bring, ultimately do not. LA fans don’t flip out at supposed failures. Case in point? Vladimir Guerrero, who is secretly an even bigger choker than A-Rod in multiple playoffs. No one but NO ONE in LA talks about what a fraud Vladi is. A-Rod was born to play in LA.
I suppose I might have already heard “A-Fraud” at some point.
Is Vlad a suspected juicer?
Yeah, I think “A-Fraud” was from Torre’s new book.
Three cheers for Peter Gammons giving A-Fraud a handjob of an interview. Instead of holding his feet to the fire when a-fraud gave his flimsy answers, gammons just read the next question on his list. I assume gammons agreed to this format to make sure he got the exclusive interview.
http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2009/02/12/2009021201441.html?Dep0=chosunmain&Dep1=news&Dep2=headline1&Dep3=h1_02
Lee Jae-yong’s wife files for divorce and sues for hundreds of millions of dollars.
Let the games begin. I’m rooting for the wife. She is major hottie.
I want a hat tip for this if it turns into an entry.
This guy is crazy…
남의 가정사의 내막은 잘모르겠지만 이재용을 아는 사람들은 이재용의 학식과 인품이 대단하다고 한다! 솔직히말해 임세령의 집안 애초부터 문제가 많은 집안이었다! 그 아버지란 사람은 탈세에다 비자금 만들다 감방에 몇번이나 갔다온 사람이고 어머니란 사람은 자식 대학교 중퇴시키고 딸내미를 억지로 결혼시킨 사람이다! 어쩌면 이재용은 정략결혼의 희생자인지 모른다!
32 votes for VS 3 against. Not a good showing.
This one is for Sonagi… Celebrity Cougars!
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-celeb-cougars-pg,0,3511792.photogallery
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