A grandmother in Jeonju has failed her driving test for 771st time.
That’s what I love about Korea — the perseverance!
(HT to reader)
by Robert Koehler on February 5, 2009
A grandmother in Jeonju has failed her driving test for 771st time.
That’s what I love about Korea — the perseverance!
(HT to reader)
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{ 69 comments… read them below or add one }
WOW, I would never have guessed they even tested drivers here. What exactly do they test? Obviously not safe, law abiding driving skills.
They test by requiring you to not knock over any pylons on a tight course. Regarding anything related to situational awareness–nada.
Couldn’t she just bribe somebody?
How hard can the driving test be, when you see the results driving on the roads everyday ? Situational awareness, obviously is not taught here. They seem to believe that the color of the car deems certain rights to the driver … I agree with Scotty, I thought you just bribed someone here, like most everything else that goes on.
It’s actually quite difficult to pass. First you have to learn how to merge into oncoming traffic without looking, change lanes without indicating, drive up one way streets when somone else is coming the other way, and understand how to correctly tell traffic cops to fuck off if they’re younger than you.
Quite a lot to remember!
I believe it was the written test she has been taking. In this instance, I assume she can’t read (I can read more Korean than my wife’s grandmother) and is hoping to get lucky and pass.
You missed out the bit about revving/braking/ revving/braking/ revving/braking ad nauseum, whilst driving on clear stretches of the highway. Or slamming on the brakes at the merest hint of a taillight flashing. Or maybe she didn’t send any text messages whilst driving?
I realize most of you probably hail from hick places like Podunk or Butt-fuck, Nowheresville where there’s only one or two traffic lights in the entire goddamn town or some shit like that. I realize for someone like that traffic in crowded, impatient, fast-moving Korea can probably seem rather traumatic.
But if you’re from NYC like me, that ain’t no thang. Compared to NYC, everything else in the world seems par for the course. Or a big joke.
Even in downtown Cleveland, the biggest city in Ohio, the level of traffic was such that it seemed like it was a lazy Sunday afternoon. Except it was on a weekday during lunch hour.
I even drove in Dublin, Ireland. They got these narrow roads that seem like they should be one-way streets. But the cars are parked in both directions on either side, so you cant tell from looking at them if its a one-way or two-way street. But you wont find me being unnecessarily snarky about that. And I had drive on the wrong side of the road in a car with the steering wheel on the wrong side of the car.
Cut the hyperbole.
At least she has class. More than I can say for all those that failed still seem to be out there on the road.
I realize most of you probably hail from hick places like Podunk or Butt-fuck, Nowheresville where there’s only one or two traffic lights in the entire goddamn town or some shit like that. I realize for someone like that traffic in crowded, impatient, fast-moving Korea can probably seem rather traumatic.
But if you’re from NYC like me, that ain’t no thang. Compared to NYC, everything else in the world seems par for the course. Or a big joke.
Are you trying to sound like a dickhead or is that accidental?
As it happens, I’m living in a fairly small Korean city and I ride a motorcycle. I’ve lived in 6 countries and a bunch of major cities. Korean drivers are amoung the worst I’ve ever seen. Not because they’re reckless, but because they’re hopelessly inept.
Incidentally, you also think that foreigners are “irrefutably” to blame for the division of korea, and don’t seem to be able to argue the matter. So you’re judgment is hardly to be taken very seriously.
Next.
I actually find Seoul a great place for driving – it’s my kinda town. On my motorcycle especially, anything goes. Last year I got an Atoz, when a pregnant Mrs Link insisted that Baby Linkd would appreciate it. The Atoz is super-narrow and highly maneuverable, essentially letting me turn 2-lane roads into 3-lane roads. I drive my car very aggressively, treating it almost like a motorcycle, and the Koreans let me get away with it.
Used cars (and bikes) are very affordable, parking is cheap almost everywhere, every lot has a valet, Seoul has a great road system if you know where you’re going, and the driving culture is permissive and forgiving. And, now that I’m clearly an ajosshi, on the occasional time that a young cop stops me for an illegal turn, I just argue my way out of it. My only complaint is that the legal intoxication limit of point-oh-five is a bit low for my preferred lifestyle. But then, you sure can’t complain about the price and availability of taxis.
To clarify: I’ve ridden Daelim bikes since ’98. The Atoz is a small car.
Pawikirogi used to be the most annoying poster here back in the day. After banning pawikirogi, wjk started standing out as the most offensive and aggravating when you scrolled down the list. He just got banned last week after, what six months? Now that he’s gone you seem to be the most annoying. Do you feel a need to make up for their absences or something?
Besides i thought you said that we were all from suburbia? Suburbia is a lot different from Podunk or butt-f***, nowheresville. Not that you’d know about either stereotypes.
I really don’t think drivers here are any more dangerous or inept than drivers elsewhere.
Lol… yeah, something changed over the time, all right. But it sure as hell wasn’t the way Netizen Kim writes. Under what appears to be one of those “here’s a funny story” blog post, the first 7 comments posted in 90 minutes are bitching about how Koreans suck at driving and how they all bribe each other, etc., etc. Certainly speaks to just how skewered the comment section has become as of late.
It used to be worse.
After seeing how people drive here that have “passed” the drivers’ test, just how bad does she have to be to FAIL it? Okay, even once or twice I could see, but that many times?
No, he’s not a dickhead. He’s a self-confessed asshole. He says he’s “not THAT kind of asshole”, but that’s where we’ll agree to disagree.
#6,
You might right.
According to the Korean government’s statistics, 77.8% of South Koreans were illiterate in 1945.
My wife tells me that a large number of Koreans who are participating in adult literacy programs are elderly women who never had the chance to attend school as young girls and then too busy raising their own children as adults.
PS. Good luck to Ms. Cha.
Correction…You might be right.
They could even – perish the thought – be safer and less inept.
Kuwaitis are far far worse – the roads are covered in body parts and wreckage.
I loved driving in Korea for the shear competitiveness of it. Your opponent pulls in the left-turn lane, but you know he’s going straight. The light turns green. You both accelerate, but you deliberately maintain the same acceleration to prevent him from merging. The oncoming traffic approaches. Will your opponent hit the breaks or punch the gas? He breaks. So do you. He accelerates. You do likewise. The oncoming drivers are freaking out. A head on collision in the works?
What killed driving in Korea for me is when the gov’t decided to conceal the cameras. No warning sign 500 metres before the camera?! That’s inhumane.
That is sad, she must have pissed someone off. I knew a Chinese girl in Korea who took it like 20 times but she was an idiot. It’s amazing that standards are in place when i would say 70% of the drivers on Korean roads are totally incompetent in driving responsibly. The old “change lanes from the far left lane of a 3 or 4 lane highway to make an exit without looking”. God Bless the woman!
Correction. The roads are paved in body parts and wreckage.
I would guess she has a serious learning disability or simply can’t read. Must be a terrible feeling to fail again and again. It’s a multiple choice test and it really isn’t all that difficult.
I let my licence lapse a few years ago, so I had to start all over again in Korea. The written test – actually multiple choice and done on a computer – is mostly about Korean traffic laws (i.e. maximum speed in a school zone, how many points one loses for speeding, how many meters one can park in front of or behind a fire hydrant). One can do it in English and an English version of the rules can be bought.
Next comes the technical driving test done on a course, the likes of which I’m sure many of you have seen around. (I did mine on the one by the bridge between the COEX and Sports Complex.) There are sensors around the edges of the lanes, so any minor slips with turning or parking result in points being deducted. Pretty unforgiving, but if you know how to drive, not so bad. My problem was that there didn’t seem to be English instructions around, so was difficult to figure out exactly what I was supposed to do in certain situations. (For example: During each test, an alarm sounds in the car, and one is supposed to brake, press the four-way stop button, and count to three before resuming one’s journey around the course. If you don’t know this, or don’t hear the Korean instructions correctly, you fail outright.) Anyway, I went early the next time, brought a few bottles of juice along, and had the police officers explain it to me a few times. No problem in the end, but it didn’t seem unusual for people to flunk it a couple of times.
The final part of the test, the road test, is about ten minutes long. A police officer rides with you (plus, the person who goes next rides in the back) and you drive around on the street. It was easy. Seemed to me that it was pretty much a formality once the other two tests had been passed.
Anyway, an interesting cultural experience in many ways. Having said that, make a point of not forgetting to renew your licence when you head home for a visit!
I would guess she has a serious learning disability or simply can’t read. Must be a terrible feeling to fail again and again. It’s a multiple choice test and it really isn’t all that difficult.
I let my licence lapse a few years ago, so I had to start all over again in Korea. The written test – actually multiple choice and done on a computer – is mostly about Korean traffic laws (i.e. maximum speed in a school zone, how many points one loses for speeding, how many meters one can park in front of or behind a fire hydrant). One can do it in English and an English version of the rules can be bought.
Next comes the technical driving test done on a course, the likes of which I’m sure many of you have seen around. (I did mine on the one by the bridge between the COEX and Sports Complex.) There are sensors around the edges of the lanes, so any minor slips with turning or parking result in points being deducted. Pretty unforgiving, but if you know how to drive, not so bad. My problem was that there didn’t seem to be English instructions around, so was difficult to figure out exactly what I was supposed to do in certain situations. (For example: During each test, an alarm sounds in the car, and one is supposed to brake, press the four-way stop button, and count to three before resuming one’s journey around the course. If you don’t know this, or don’t hear the Korean instructions correctly, you fail outright.) Anyway, I went early the next time, brought a few bottles of juice along, and had the police officers explain it to me a few times. No problem in the end, but it didn’t seem unusual for people to flunk it a couple of times.
The final part of the test, the road test, is about ten minutes long. A police officer rides with you (plus, the person who goes next rides in the back) and you drive around on the street. It was easy. Seemed to me that it was pretty much a formality once the other two tests had been passed.
Anyway, an interesting cultural experience in many ways. Having said that, make a point of not forgetting to renew your licence when you head home for a visit!
I’m still amazed that I haven’t hit anyone while driving in NYC. Especially at night away from the bright lights where there’s people around with dark coats…mad dangerous.
#20 I loved driving in Korea for the shear competitiveness of it.
For better or for worse, Korea remains a highly competitive society. It is a consequence of the fact that within the living memory of many older Koreans still, whether you were quicker than your rival at grabbing whatever scraps available made the difference of hunger or even survival. Naturally, this innate competitiveness would manifest itself in the driving culture within the Land of a Thousand Contradictions.
I once read in an old National Geographic article about a NASA astronaut who experienced a similar culture clash with Russian cosmonauts. This is back in the days immediately following Perestroika, when US and Soviet space agencies started collaborating for the very first time. During mealtimes, the Russians would just grab the rations as quickly as possible, seemingly without any regard to the next person. There was no orderly system of distribution. The astronaut was puzzled at first but slowly realized this was normal and acceptable in a society where people waited on frighteningly long lines just to get toilet tissue. Pretty soon, the astronaut was grabbing food also. This is reminiscent of Korean schoolchildren during lunch time in the old days. Everyone would help themselves to each other’s banchan without asking, especially the one who had the tastier morsels.
My apartment complex throws a picnic party every once a year. There’s hamburgers, hot dogs, and BBQ. We’re waiting on line to get and this old Chinese lady pops out of nowhere, skips everyone on line, and grabs the last remaining hot dog in the tray. To an American, this is rude, outrageous, unacceptable behavior. But sometime during that Chinese lady’s past, starvation was a reality.
Old habits die hard. When I traveled in Europe, I had a German travel companion. I visited her family a few times and even got to meet her 80+ year old grandmother. When the granny saw me, my companion explained that I was from America. Granny asked if I had arrived on a ship. She had lived through the harsh periods after the Versailles Treaty and WWII. Even after decades of West German prosperity, she and her deceased husband used to stock hordes of food in their house, as if to prepare for some unforeseen disaster. Every time my friend visited her granny, granny always, ALWAYS had a piece of toast with jam prepared for her. Because when food is scarce, the adults had to make sure the young were fed first.
My mother always used to tell me: if you are not quicker and faster than the one next to you, and you let others get ahead because you want to be polite, then you are babo. Unfortunately, I grew up to be a typical lazy American, who takes many things for granted. Korea is now a prosperous society but the collective memory still remembers the cold, yuntan heating, and scrambling for scraps thrown out on the trash heaps of US Army bases of well fed GIs.
This overcompensative scarcity mentality will naturally manifest itself in Korea’s driving culture as well. And in education. And in Korea’s trade relations with the world. And so forth.
NK,
You’re going to surprise a lot of folks with that posting – they’re going to wonder if you’re really passive/aggressive. Still, fwiw, a very thoughtful one, imho.
Relating to NK’s post. There is a reason why the children who survived the Great Depression are called the Greatest Generation. They survived an environment where nothing was taken for granted and resources were scarce, to say the least. They had a hungry and serious demeanor which helped American win WWII and the Cold War.
Americans nowadays? Too many complacent cry babies.
wow this is like biblical figures. i worry that the apocalypse is upon us when she succeeds.
#28….I think that Britain, France, Australia, New Zealand, elements of the former Yugloslavia, USSR etc etc may have had a hand in that WW2 thing….
# 30,
Haha… not if you ask Tom Brokaw…
Moving post NK. I would still challenge that there’s a fundamental difference in eastern and western thinking, though, as most of central Europe has seen similar deprivation in recent years also. However, there doesn’t seem to be the same “me first” mentality, as far as I’ve witnessed anyway. It probably manifests itself more in the relationships with food, my gf’s grandparents were Polish refugees, and always had stockpiles of pickles in the larder. They passed an unhealthy attitude to food onto my gf’s mother, but fortunately it seems to have stopped there. And the kids always got fed first, while the grandparents watched anxiously, making sure that they ate every last bite.
In Britain, we didn’t have it so bad, though we had pretty severe rationing which caused many teenage arguments with my parents, who couldn’t conceive that someone would give up all that valuable protein by going vegetarian.
People can be very scathing of Korea, me included, and it boils down to the fact that we don’t belong here. I’ve seen behaviour here that grates so unbearably with my moral upbringing, to the point that I can’t believe that humans can behave in such ways to each other. (For reasons of balance, my countrymens’ habit of hitting each other with bottles at soccer matches, and blaming it on boredom, fills me with despair also). I accept that there are horrific historical reasons, but I wish for Korea’s sake that they would get over the past, or at least stop validating bad behaviour as being caused by the past. Because it seems to me that the collective memory has forgotten the bad stuff, but kept the greedy, grasping side as a way of always getting what you want.
It flies in the face of the spirit of the elderly generation, who have been the most accepting and kindly to me, during my time in Korea.
Tom Brokaw? Googled him and didn’t get much on why he would think the USA won the war single handedly! Though we are eternally grateful and couldn’t have done it without ‘em! Pity they had to come over during the war and steal all our women with their nylons and chocolate!
I don’t think many city-dwellers under forty have memories of deprivation. The young know only democracy, prosperity, and gadgetry.
Arggghhh. I hate it when I don’t close a tag properly.
How many questions are there on this test? It’s multiple choice you say? So there should be some Poisson probability for passing. Are there so many questions that randomly guessing on every question 770 times means the probability of passing isn’t ~1?
Rough calculation, if there are twenty questions and four choices on each, the probability of getting 60% or more if you guess randomly is about 0.001. The probability that you fail 770 consecutive times is about 0.5.
If she is completely illiterate, and receiving no verbal assistance, she’s still reasonably unlucky, no?
#35 Sonagi,
it appears to me that some people with “keys to the kingdom” can edit posts/comments, while others can’t. Care to comment?
I tend to agree with the idea that bad driving here is linked to discourtesy, which is linked to Korea’s history of deprivation. The main problem on the road here is aggression and selfishness.
I ride a motorcycle, so I’m naturaly down the pecking order as far as vehicles are concerned. Every single day I’m bullied out of a lane by a driver who simply wants to be where I am. Usually they just slowly merge until you have no choice but to brake or swerve into another lane. On occasion I’ve held my ground and maybe even lashed out with a boot at the offender’s quarter panel, but this often leads to a dangerous reaction from the driver, so I’ve more or less resigned myself to fitting in as best I can around other cars.
The other thing that Korean drivers do is forefuly enter traffic from side-streets. Instead of pulling up and waiting for a gap in the traffic, what they tend to do is nose their car half-way out into the first lane so that oncoming traffic has to stop for them; then they merge. Black statesmen and taxis are the worst at this; they’ll look you in the eye, determine whether or not you’l be able to brake in time not to crash into them, and then pull out. No matter if you have to come to a screeching halt to let them in.
I generaly drive at a speed where I can avoid a collision with these people, but one time I was chasing a bus which had my sister on it; buses here, as most people know, drive pretty damn quickly. I came around a bend at about 85 ks and a SUV pulled out in front of me. I quickly judged that I would have time to brake, so I swerved instead. The front of the SUV struck my muffler and sent me into a fish-tail, from which I barely recovered (in the opposite lane – luckily there was no oncoming traffic). To this day I can’t understand how the SUV’s bumper hit my muffler but missed my leg.
It’s multiple choices and believes there are only few types of test from data bank. She could memorize every type of test after taking 770 times if she does not have a serious learning disability.
OR, she must be addicted to the test by now. The test becomes part of her life. She might intentionally mark incorrect answers to underscore the test. Maybe she is using it to prevent “Alzheimer” … Well, not much detail listed on the article…Just hope she could pass the test on 771st times.
It’s multiple choices and believes there are only few types of test from data bank. She could memorize every type of test after taking 770 times if she does not have a serious learning disability.
OR, she must be addicted to the test by now. The test becomes part of her life. She might intentionally mark incorrect answers to underscore the test. Maybe she is using it to prevent “Alzheimer” … Well, not much detail listed on the article…Just hope she could pass the test on 771st times.
#8,
Highest number of traffic accident deaths per capita amongst OECD countries. Used to be worst in the world when I first began driving here, but the cops have since begun giving out fines for not wearing seatbelts.
If only they’d do the same for infants sitting on the laps of their parents.
@Eujin:
Just as only a select few of Obama’s inner circle have his email address, it appears that only some of the Hole’s contributing bloggers can edit comments on any thread.
I disagree. I have experience driving in NYC and in Seoul and say that driving in Seoul is far more challenging. I’m not passing judgment on Korean drivers, just taken as a whole it is a different animal.
I have a base of experience to compare the two. What’s your experience driving in Seoul? Have you ever had a Korean driver’s license?
#42,
I’d just like the ability to edit my comments on a thread, not anyone’s. Still, if this is the price we pay to be followers of the Marmot, it’s a light load indeed.
wait, she is:
1) a woman
2) an asian
3) old
this is too easy.
#41 – The reluctance of parents to use child care seats here is maddening. Making this a legal requirement – it was tried once, and cancelled the same day – would save more than a few kids’ lives. (A great many more than will be saved by testing E-2 visa holders for pot.)
#43 – Driving in definitely more challenging in Seoul than in North American cities (and for those people who insist on NYC being the point of reference for the whole planet, I’ve driven there too. No big whoop.) I’ve found many of my fellow drivers in Korea to be unpredicable, but predictably unpredictable if that makes any sense. More so than back home, you really have to be on a high level of readiness/alert all the time. I might have found driving in Korea more exciting and amusing when I was younger, but having one’s kid in the backseat – in his carseat, at least – sort of takes the rush out of the experience.
To be honest, getting a licence in Korea all over again involved more stages, time, and effort than it was for me to get one in Canada for the first time when I was younger. There is an emphasis on safety in the theory class everybody has to take. (The video features some pretty graffic images of real pedestrians getting smashed by cars. Almost as bad as the photos of accidents at Korean highway rest stops.) They are making an effort in terms of driver education, and OECD stats were cited to me by one police officer at the testing center as a reason why.
The biggest problem is that once you get your licence, careless or reckless driving isn’t really punished here. You can seemingly blow through red lights, drive backwards on expressways if you miss your exit, or change lanes without using your indicators, without ever really having to worry about being ticketed. These rules are all learned and stressed throughout driver ed. in Korea, but if laws aren’t enforced, people can get into the habit of ignoring them.
#32 I would still challenge that there’s a fundamental difference in eastern and western thinking, though, as most of central Europe has seen similar deprivation in recent years also. However, there doesn’t seem to be the same “me first” mentality, as far as I’ve witnessed anyway.
Have you ever driven in South Philly? I lived in Philly for a while when I was working for the Navy. Philly is like a doughnut. The creamy filling is Center City, which is like Manhattan Lite. The surrounding areas is pure ghetto. Within the ghetto, however, there are pockets of areas where the streets and homes are surprisingly well maintained, in stark contrast to the black neighborhoods. This is where the Philadelphia Italians live. They are very territorial. The local mafia makes sure that everything is well-kept and that no undesirable elements infiltrate their neighborhoods to mess it up. However, their driving habits can be frightening also. A Tony Soprano looking guy dressed in a running suit gets into his Cadillac and backs out of his driveway without bothering to look what’s behind him. These guys don’t give a shit. If you get hit, it’s your fault. Happens all the time.
If you want to pick a group of Occidentals to compare present-day Koreans, it would have to be the early 20-century Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe crammed into the slums of the Lower East Side. If you took these people and gave them cars to drive, their driving habits would look a lot like that of the Koreans of today, if not worse.
But overall I will grant that the “me-first” mentality is probably more pronounced and glaring with Asians compared with Westerners. I attribute this to the civilizing effects of Christianity, with the emphasis on charity and the Golden Rule. For about 2000 years, Christianity has been slowly transforming barbaric pagans into Europeans. But Christianity has been present in Korea for how long? About a 100 years? Confucian ideals of reciprocity differ in important ways from Christian ethics, and they are largely implemented not as principles on their own right, but as buttresses to reinforce the larger framework of social order and relational hierarchy.
There is a non-canonical parable that goes like this: in Hell, everyone is sitting around a big cauldron of soup. Each has a ten foot long spoon. A scene of torment reminiscent of the story of the punishment of Tantalus, everyone is starving. There is weeping and gnashing of teeth because it’s very difficult to feed yourself with a 10 foot long spoon. So everyone goes hungry. In Heaven, you have a bunch of people with 10 foot long spoons sitting around a big cauldron of soup. But everyone is happy and well fed. Because each one is feeding the one opposite themselves with their 10 foot spoons.
I accept that there are horrific historical reasons, but I wish for Korea’s sake that they would get over the past, or at least stop validating bad behaviour as being caused by the past. Because it seems to me that the collective memory has forgotten the bad stuff, but kept the greedy, grasping side as a way of always getting what you want.
I remember that when I was a Sunday school teacher in church many years ago, we were standing in a long line to get food after service. One of my students cut in front of me. When I chastised him and told him to get back, he replied quoting Matt 20:16, “Teacher, Scripture tells us that the last shall be the first and the first shall be the last”. You are first in line and I am last. If we are to realize the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth it is fitting that I skip ahead of you.”
“Teacher, Scripture tells us that the last shall be the first and the first shall be the last.”
Smartass…
Don’t even get me started on them crazyass Italians on Staten Island…they scare the living daylights outta me.
Compared to Italian Americans, Korean Americans are like sheep. Absolutely true.
Which, I’m sorry to say, Netizen Kim, kinda disproves your whole Christianity turned barbarians into europeans theory. I mean, can you get a more central source of Christian teachings other than the birthplace of Christianity itself?
NK – I agree with the Christianity thing wholeheartedly, even the non believers amongst us former barbarians have allowed the teachings of Christ to infiltrate our hearts, and it influences and shapes our everyday actions and the way we lead our lives. It has also had a huge influence in the shaping of our judiciary and government.
I know it’s relatively in it’s infancy in SK, but it would seem that, as it has been hijacked and reinterpreted by many in the West, so too has it been twisted to suit people’s true nature in Korea. Many of my students write about praying to Jesus to make them beautiful and rich, Korean Christians of my acquaintance tell me they pray for their or their spouses promotions and pay rises and a good friend who is a devout Christian walked out of a service here, after hearing all the materialistic crap the pastor was spouting. So basically, I can’t really seeing it having a profound effect on the Confusianistic way of thinking.
Which, I’m sorry to say, Netizen Kim, kinda disproves your whole Christianity turned barbarians into europeans theory. I mean, can you get a more central source of Christian teachings other than the birthplace of Christianity itself?
What are you referring to? What is disproving my theory?
The Italians, I’m talking about. According to your idea of the civilizing effects of Christianity, you’d expect the Italians to be a prime example of it. I don’t find that to be true. More likely it had the effect of polarizing and making worse good and bad people who were headed in their respective directions anyway.
Of course, this is all just guesswork.
Making worse for the bad, Making better for the good.
BTW, I’m watching Higher Learning is available on Hulu. I like it. I’m not sure why people think it’s too preachy. I think it dramatizes real emotions fairly well.
Dammit, I wish this thing had a grammar checker.
It has also had a huge influence in the shaping of our judiciary and government.
Yes, it has. Atheists like to claim that the Church was largely responsible for the long period of fear, ignorance and superstition known as the Dark Ages. However, it was the Protestant Reformation and Martin Luther that really set the stage for the Age of Enlightenment.
so too has it been twisted to suit people’s true nature in Korea. Many of my students write about praying to Jesus to make them beautiful and rich, Korean Christians of my acquaintance tell me they pray for their or their spouses promotions and pay rises and a good friend who is a devout Christian walked out of a service here, after hearing all the materialistic crap the pastor was spouting. So basically, I can’t really seeing it having a profound effect on the Confusianistic way of thinking.
Confucianism has nothing to do with this. Confucianism is a state philosophy not a religion. There is no “Confucian god” that one prays to for material blessings.
Before Christianity, Shamanism was one of the dominant belief system in Korea. This prayerful groveling for material blessings is an aspect of Shamanism. This pre-existing religious habit simply got transferred onto Christianity. It’s called syncretism. Happened in Europe also. Where do you think the Christmas tree and the Easter Egg originated?
I think much of the unique habits and modes of thinking found only with Korean Christians is rooted in syncretism with pre-existing Shamanism.
“Confucianism is a state philosophy not a religion.”
Partly true. It was a social engineering project put in place to bring order to social chaos. In that regard, it created a body of soft law, playing a similar coercive role as Christianity in the West.
The Italians, I’m talking about. According to your idea of the civilizing effects of Christianity, you’d expect the Italians to be a prime example of it. I don’t find that to be true. More likely it had the effect of polarizing and making worse good and bad people who were headed in their respective directions anyway.
Give a specific example of what you’re talking about.
BTW, NK, you are right about Christianity being a product of religious syncretism – it is the product of blending Judaic and Greek mythology that developed in an area of the world that was a cultural crossroads at the time. There is nothing new in New Testament that was not already present in Greek and Judaic mythology.
Don’t take me too seriously. I’m just throwing ideas around. Now I’m thinking that witnessing absolute goodness would obviously turn the tables towards a group of people with a higher proportion of good people than otherwise. By how much, I’m not sure, but I think we’d disagree about the how much part. Like I said, Italians aren’t exactly a good example of this civilizing influence you’re talking about.
Or maybe I’ve just been watching too many mobster movies.
NK – I agree with the Christianity thing wholeheartedly, even the non believers amongst us former barbarians have allowed the teachings of Christ to infiltrate our hearts, and it influences and shapes our everyday actions and the way we lead our lives. It has also had a huge influence in the shaping of our judiciary and government.
NK:”But overall I will grant that the “me-first” mentality is probably more pronounced and glaring with Asians compared with Westerners. I attribute this to the civilizing effects of Christianity, with the emphasis on charity and the Golden Rule. For about 2000 years, Christianity has been slowly transforming barbaric pagans into Europeans. But Christianity has been present in Korea for how long? About a 100 years?”
Korea had Buddhism, which teaches the same principles – (“chabi” (charity) and “inyeon” or Karma.
Confucian ideals of reciprocity differ in important ways from Christian ethics, and they are largely implemented not as principles on their own right, but as buttresses to reinforce the larger framework of social order and relational hierarchy.”
While this is true, Christiantity was implemented in much the same manner in Europe.
It’s very difficult to attempt to explain cultural differences in this way. The Dalai Lama maintains that all religions have the same general human principles but necessarily differ according to the native proclivities of the people themselves.
In my view the toxic competitiveness of contemporary Korean society is less a product of religious or philosophical currents than of hard economics and the psychological effects of a recent history of poverty, war and political chaos.
For example, one of my western friends referred to this back in the 1970′s as “blatent insecurity”. He used this term observing ajumas pushing one another out of the way to be the first to board a bus for which they had assigned seats! Only in Korea.
it is the product of blending Judaic and Greek mythology that developed in an area of the world that was a cultural crossroads at the time.
Judaism was an extraordinarily innovative religion during ancient times. The idea that there is only one God? Unheard of. Judaism was also the first religion to incorporate a code of ethical conduct into its belief structure. You didn’t have that with the pagan religions.
I would differ with you about Christianity being a blend of Judaism and Greek beliefs, however. Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism (ie the arrival of the moshiah). Also, early churches struggled with the infiltration of heretical gospels such as gnosticism, which is based on the concept that the spiritual form is good and perfect while the material world is undesirable and evil, a predominant theme in ancient Greek thought.
No, the figure of Jesus was already existent in Greek mythology, as was Mary. Jewish sects such as the Essenes conventiently adopted these into the Judaic messianic and apocalypstic mythologies, which resulted in the development of Christianity. Gnostisism was not heretical but constituted the actual roots of early Christianity, and was later drummed out by Constantine at the Council of Nicea.
The myth of Jesus is found in Horus in Egypt and Osiris in Greek mythology. These quick links explore some of the currents that went into the creation of the Jesus myth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/fabrication.html
As far as Buddhism is concerned, Mahayana Buddhism is little different from Christianity. The concept of the Boddhisattva is the perfect being who sacrifices him/herself for the world. Just as Jesus is son of god who descended to earth from Heaven to save humanity, these are beings who are reborn into the world and delay their entry into Nibbana to save humanity.
Mahayana Buddism features figures who play the same intercessional and salvational role as Jesus, Kwan Se Um Bosal (Kwan Yin or Avolokitesvara – in Korean, the name means he who hears the cries of the world.) There is also the messianic Buddha, Mire Bosal (Maitreya.)
In other words, there is nothing uniquely Christian or Judaic about the mythological figure of Jesus.
Wrong. Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten toyed with monotheism centuries before Moses chatted up a burning bush.
NK ~ I know that Confucianism isn’t a religion as such, more of a code. But with the lapse of Shamanism, there obviously existed a vaccuum, for those who couldn’t rationalise their own existence and for them to appeal for non spiritual blessings. Step in Christianity, and I’m just observing on it’s misuse, much as it’s misused in my society, where it’s misinterpreted to perpetrate intolerance.
I enjoyed Mizar’s second link. Didn’t know all the stuff about Nazareth before. But I’m not sure I’m sold on the basic premise of the site. The writers get a bit carried away in places.
I too have suffered my fair does of parallelomania. Our friend Gang Gam-chan seems very biblical, especially if you visit Nakseongdae and see some of the paintings. Some of the early Korean mythology is also very archetypal.
I’ve often what wondered what the essential appeal of Christianity is. Is it essentially the same as Mahayana Buddhism, especially the Pure Land part, or is the message fundamentally different?
Another thing I’ve never found a satisfactory answer to is why Christianity is so popular in Korea but no so much in Japan. They have similar Buddhist and missionary histories, the same fascination with Western music, the same love of gentle things like Hello Kitty, the same passion for group singing at the baseball. Is it all just a historical accident?
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