In the KT, University of Maryland University College, Asia sociologist Jon Huer makes those of us without PhD’s feel a whole lot better about ourselves.
Many foreigners who enter Korea try to understand “Korean thinking” but end up finding the enterprise quite baffling and frustrating.
To put it simply, most American businessmen, diplomats, military personnel, tourists, teachers and any number of those who have had a brush with Korea find its thought pattern among the strangest, and its behavioral rationale among the most difficult to comprehend.
Many conclude that Koreans are too impenetrable and weird to understand. They cite the mad-cow protests, the National Assembly brawls, the Internet madness, and now the “Minerva” phenomenon, among others, as examples to demonstrate this sense of incomprehensible strangeness about Korea. If these examples are not good enough to indicate Koreans’ “strange” thinking, another more recent example might suffice.
Yes, I guess this all does look pretty “impenetrable” and “weird”… if you’re completely unfamiliar with the history, culture, society and politics of the country you’re trying to comprehend. But that doesn’t mean their thought pattern is strange. It just means you’re ignorant.
On Jan. 14, a teenager called Gimpo Airport and told them that there was a bomb on board a plane bound for Jeju Island. While suspecting it to be a prank call, the authorities still halted the 18 flights scheduled for the island and took precautionary measures. No evidence of a bomb was found and the flights resumed, but with a terrific bill of extra expenses and inconvenience in the aftermath.
Why aren’t the authorities pushing to enforce the law against the prank calls, which are punishable by up to three-years’ imprisonment? “Because we’re afraid of the reactions [from the public] that the punishment is too harsh.” (Chosun, Jan. 16) Enough said.
No, not enough said. Immediately following that quote (and I’m translating here), “Jeong Bo-hwa of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority said, ‘The police’s light punishment [of prank crimes] as a minor crime has led to copy-cat crimes… I think only if we strengthen punishment by tracking down perpetrators and punishing them harshly will prank calls diminish.” Most of the comments that followed the piece call for the authorities to throw the book at the kid… who was 13. Following more prank call incidents, media — the Seoul Sinmun and MBC, for starters — also called on the authorities to severely punish prank callers.
But you’re right, though. Koreans think strange. Because authorities in other countries never behave in mystifyingly incompetent ways.
This sense of incomprehensibility is surprising to most casual observers because Korea “seems” to be so modern and westernized. Its highways are first rate, its technology some of the most advanced, its cultural consumption among the most affluent. It has one of the best-educated populations in the world.
Amazing! An advanced nation with people who don’t act like Westerners! I mean, shit, next thing, you’ll be telling me Japan is the world’s second largest economy.
Why is Korea so strange and weird, contrary to what’s on the surface? As a sociologist who has lived and taught in Korea for over a decade and as one who believes in rational explanations for all social phenomena, I am going to offer two explanations: geography and language.
This, children, is where it goes from bad to abortion.
As for geography, if you take Europe as the starting point and expand your horizon in both directions, east and west, the Korean Peninsula is seen at the very edge of the world.
Yeah, so?
If Alexander the Great had pushed on toward the “farthest point of the world,” as he had originally wished, he would have stopped in Korea. Of all the nations he encountered on his eastward progress, the cluster of the tiny kingdoms now called Korea would have been at the very edge of the known world.
And if Alexander the Great had gone west rather than east and ended up in the British Isles, he would have encountered some pretty bizarre folk. So?
Indeed, Korea is virtually the remotest tip of the known world to Americans and Europeans. Korea’s social structure, food, clothing, manners of living, language and other aspects of life are some of the “strangest” the Western world has known about. Even Nepal, as remote as it seems from the Western sphere of things, is more familiar than Korea to the rest of the world. No wonder Korea’s internationally-recognized moniker is the “Hermit Kingdom.”
OK, so Korea is far from Europe, and they dress, eat and talk funny. Oh, and it used to be called the Hermit Kingdom… before the 20th century, Japanese colonialism, the Korean War, the Miracle on the Han, the 88 Olympics, 2002 World Cup and StarCraft.
Western civilization never reached Korea, even remotely, until, very oddly, Japan opened it by force in the early part of the 20th century. The strange and alien feelings that the American GI’s had upon coming to Korea during the Korean War (1950-53) are somewhat shared by today’s visitors to Korea if they stay long enough to go deeper than the tourist’s cursory attention.
Going deeper than the tourist’s cursory attention. Hmm, maybe you should try it some time.
As for language, linguists and anthropologists the world over routinely list the Korean Language as one of the most difficult languages, if not the most difficult, to learn. What makes it so is its uniqueness.
The expressiveness of the Korean language and the variations and shades of meaning it is capable of producing is mind-boggling to most Westerners. Even the commonest verb, like “to eat” or “to live,” when combined as a compound verb “to eat and live,” is so loaded with emotions and feelings that only native Koreans can comprehend and communicate them among themselves.
Where did you read that? The Lonely Planet?
Then you add all the combinations and permutations of socio-economic ranks, regional differences, educational levels, familial and gender statuses, and other such assumed situational variations, and it’s no wonder that even the most astute linguist can merely scratch the surface in his effort to penetrate the Korean mind.
Especially if your primary text is the Berlitz phrasebook.
Shrouded in this mind-fog and stranded in this cultural orbit, few Koreans are strong enough or fortuitous enough to escape the Korean uniqueness/strangeness that is ordained in their language. The power of language on the Korean mind is so absolute that even their extensive foreign travels or English learning seem to have failed to produce any influence on their ability to escape into a semblance of global objectivity or modern rationality.
How positively inscrutable!
As a blessing, the language has protected Korea’s identity like a secret code. As a curse, it keeps Korea forever in the black hole of impenetrable oddness.
Funny, I feel the same about Portuguese. I mean, any time I hear Brazilians talk, I can’t understand a word they’re saying. It’s like a secret code that keeps them forever in a black hole of impenetrable oddness.
Brazil is pretty far away, too — it’s like a nine hour flight to Rio from JFK.
Trapped by such immutable aspects of history and culture, Korea will remain strange and incomprehensible to the rest of the world for a long time to come.
Christ, what do they teach at UCLA? I mean, this is two in a row.


{ 73 comments… read them below or add one }
My, this is a long post but good and a just fisking. This should be an article, IMHO.
Though this Huer fellow is a Ph.D., he works at a football and basketball university that I am too familiar with, thus I can not take him seriously. Though UMD has a few decent alumni, such is more remarkable when considering the number of weak departments they have. Dr. Huer should consider teaching at Seoul National just to pump up his vitae.
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The Terps did produce Boomer Esiason, East Islip‘s second most famous son (behind me, of course).
BTW, yes, this was picking the low-lying fruit. Still fun.
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Darn, I just noticed, this doofus works for University College, which is the continuing education for adults part of UMD. That is low-hanging fruit, in fact, I would call it a truffle.
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Ah yes ye olde “inscrutable Asian” drivel, recognize it all too well. Typical “orientalism” tripe…
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He’s writing for the Korean domestic market. It’s what Koreans want to hear about themselves.
He’s 30 years too late on this Asian scam, Gregory Clarke in Japan gave the same old guff and made a fortune of it. However I’m sure he could still get a few well funded lectures to Korean businesses and universities out of it
It just doesn’t pass anymore because a lot more people are ‘integrated’ into these north east Asian societies, thru marriage or duration, than they were 30 years ago.
It’s a really sad statement of higher education that apart from the ‘indigenes’, the only people who promote this claptrap are so called academics. I wouldn’t hear such bollocks from English teachers or US marines.
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I don’t know how reliable a source Jon Huer is. (His Caucasian wife, Terry, is very nice herself and has an open mind about Korean culture AND the Korean language, way more so than the husband, a guy of Korean descent who, I think, was adopted by Americans.)
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Hahaha… that was great Rob!
Yeah, what do they teach at UCLA huh? Us Trojan grads have never heard of U-C-L-A, but we do understand that there is a large, hopelessly inept, state funded community college in Westwood…
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… oh and we sometimes pity their inferior education by hiring them to clean our homes, run errands, do general administrative work, shine our shoes…
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Jon Huer is of Korean descent?
Well, that explains the “American virus” article.
This article, well, just too simplistic an explanation. I appreciate that language and geography are often sociological criteria for making judgments about countries but he seems to have little faith in people overcoming these barriers.
I think it’s a bit harsh to call people “ignorant” when they find Koreans strange, though. We don’t all wear hanbok.
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My feelings echo those of Scipio from my on-and-off living in Japan for some 13 years since 1970. If anything, the Japanese are even more self indulgent than the Koreans in this kind of claptrap.
What is different, though, Japanese-Americans have done a much better job than many Korean-Americans in moving on and getting real lives beyond ethnic navel gazing.
This is partially because the Japanese have been living abroad at least a generation longer than the Koreans. Another possible reason is the Japanese-American community got their noses rubbed tragically into the consequences of hanging out in ethnic ghettos at the outset of World War II. Having been traumatized by the relocation camps, many families realized they had better make a greater efforts to get on to the same page of most other Americans.
The net-net, if you will, is Huer’s sort of public angst is likely to get some kind of support within the politically correct environment of academia in which many Koreans and Korean-Americans dwell. On the other hand, if a Japanese or Japanese-American academic wrote something similar, chances are he or she would be called down within the Japanese-American community for making them all look like buffoons.
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American explaining away Korea-American who explains away Koreans…jeezus, that’s enough explaining away to make a limited brain like mine all confused. Please, consider the average receptive ability of your audience when you post your stupendously sophisticated observations.
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Well, I’ve head the expression that Korean is supposedly one of the “hardest languages in the world” but that statement is very misleading.
How hard one language may be to you really depends on your background. For example, for a Spanish speaker learning French is relatively easy. For a German, learning English is relatively easy. However, given that English is a Frankinstein monster of sorts with words from Latin, Greece, France, German, etc. with a totally bizzare and unpredictable spelling convention that English has to be one of the hardest languages in the world, relatively speaking.
Korean is just a hard language for English speaking people because there are no connections to make it easier. They share very little vocabulary and the grammar could’t be different. I get headaches reading long passages in Korean because every freak’in thing is in reverse! Korean for example, would be easier for a Japanese speaker or Mongolian speaker or even a Cantonese speaker, due to the similarity in shared Sinographs.
It is very hard for native English speakers to speak Korean and vice versa. The State Department ranks Korean right up there with Arabic, Chinese and Japanese as the hardest language for English speakers to master. As a matter of fact, I think the instruction hours for Korean is even more than Arabic.
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Hey RJK,
You are the definitive source on Korea. Check you blog regularly.
Lived in Korea for awhile. Look dude you are stressing too much.
I know you guys up there are under a pressure cooker.
Chill out, get the hell out of there.
I feel for you guys that are living there as part of your service. For the non-service guys living in Korea you guys need to be treated better as expats. Plain and simple.
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My feeling is also that English is harder than Korean. Evidence #1: Sarah Palin. I’m not joking, because I don’t think Sarah Palin is dumb– in fact she’s quite able given that she was able to reach such great levels of political success with her podunk educational background. But not only her, but we Americans here routinely come across public figures who’ve had all the practice in the word talking and yet still manage to stumble fairly regularly when asked to talk on the fly. It may be intentional but I’ve noticed something like that with Obama also, though it could only be because he’s overly calculating with his language usage. My from experience with english users vs korean users, I’d say hands down english is a harder language.
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Err, I guess I’m evidence #2. Sorry about the errors, if you’re offended.
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Also, as a note, I am not French, I am an American. I am not sure why my post carries the French flag.
My daughter only carries the American and Chinese flag.
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The expressiveness of the Korean language and the variations and shades of meaning it is capable of producing is mind-boggling to most Westerners. Even the commonest verb, like “to eat” or “to live,” when combined as a compound verb “to eat and live,” is so loaded with emotions and feelings that only native Koreans can comprehend and communicate them among themselves.
hahhaha yes. Koreans speak in a secret language to communicate amongst themselves… it’s called Korean.
this guy is awesome. and by awesome, I mean a douche.
yeah I love how Koreans are so strange because they are successful and don’t act just like white people. I had no idea the only way to success was acting like white people.
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by the way, this bit right here is just insulting.
Shrouded in this mind-fog and stranded in this cultural orbit, few Koreans are strong enough or fortuitous enough to escape the Korean uniqueness/strangeness that is ordained in their language. The power of language on the Korean mind is so absolute that even their extensive foreign travels or English learning seem to have failed to produce any influence on their ability to escape into a semblance of global objectivity or modern rationality.
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WK @11,
I am studying Latin on my own (more or less on a whim, I was bored,) and I was pleasantly surprised to find that Latin’s grammar structures are very similar to Korean. If classical education still held on in the U.S., Korean would have been easier to learn.
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Reminds me… I was talking to a few Mexican valet parkers in ktown and they were jabbering about how Korean was easier to learn than English… for the same reason… the grammar.
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No, not the grammar, I believe, but the pronunciation.
Years ago I ran into a Puerto Rican gent in Korea. He was with the U.S. Army of course, because in those days there were precious few not miliary foreigners around. I attempted to use Spanish, with which I was once conversant. However, Korean crept into it – partly because it had a similar feel pronunciation wise. When I referred to him as chingu (friend in Korean) however, he was perplexed. The word is a serious insult in Spanish.
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“yeah I love how Koreans are so strange because they are successful and don’t act just like white people. I had no idea the only way to success was acting like white people.”
You’ve forgotten that we did it by copying the white man’s ways, entering the industrial revolution and adopting Western technologies?
Tsk, tsk, the race card is the last refuge of a scoundral.
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“Reminds me… I was talking to a few Mexican valet parkers in ktown and they were jabbering about how Korean was easier to learn than English… for the same reason… the grammar.”
No, it’s easy to learn a few phrases, but English is much easier for Mexicans to learn to actually converse in for reasons you cited in comment #11, (“connections to make it easier…” including vocabulary and the grammar)
Mexican lexicon, grammar and cultural touchpoints are a lot closer to English than Korean. Not only do many hispanic people speak English, but many speak it fluently, whereas Korean fluency is so rare as to be practically nonexistent.
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They apparently don’t teach much English at USC.
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Gosh darn it Sonagi… can’t a guy use common talk in the comments section at least without being hounded by the grammar police???
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Okay, yes, this guy is a moron, and his essay reads like the diary of an 18th century aristocrat gone travelin’ and trying to sound smart.
But to try to find some redeeming value for Dr. Huer, I’ve believed for quite some time that part of Korea’s struggles with learning English is due to geography. Simply put, Korean students do not have the opportunities that their European counterparts have in terms of youth-oriented travel. Therefore, Koreans have less incentive and opportunity to learn an international language.
While Dr. Huer never actually said this, I imagine he might. If he wasn’t so busy being stupid.
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I’m shocked to hear that someone thinks Korean grammar is similar to Latin. What’s the alleged similarity? Word order?
Because Korean’s charm (at least to me) lies in lack of conjugations and declensions, gender and number, and nearly absolute regularity. Latin is decidedly different (although not so bad as Russian, or English for that matter). I found that previous study of Latin was of (limited) assistance slogging through first-year Russian (I have three years of first-year Russian under my belt!), but none at all when studying Chinese or Korean.
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Whenever you hear anyone say this or that language is ‘the hardest language’ in the world, get ready for some non-scientific, politically motivated garbage. You cannot judge the difficulty of a language by second-language learners because they all start with their first languages. As some others have pointed out, the similarities or differences between the target language and the learner’s first language cause too much interference for any even quasi-scientific results. For Dutch speakers, English is usually very easy because of the similarities between the two languages. As I understand it, Korean is relatively easy for Japanese and Chinese speakers to learn for the same reason.
Linguists talk about difficult or complicated systems within a language but almost never talk about difficult languages. No language is as complicated as it theoretically could be. In almost any given natural human language there are complex systems and also more simple systems. For example, English has a rather complex verbal tense system compared to many languages but it has almost absurdly simple gender (unlike Russian or German) animacy (unlike Navajo) and case (unlike Finnish or Turkish) systems. One of my favorite examples of seemingly unnecessary complexity is Slovene with its nine distinct verbal conjugations. Instead of the usual six 1st, 2nd, 3rd persons singular and plural, Slovene has 1st, 2nd, 3rd persons singular, dual and plural. Thus, in Slovene for every verb along with I go, We go there is a separate We-two go. This is in addition to a separate noun ending for two of anything in various cases.
If they talk about difficulty at all, linguists usually talk about difficulty of first language acquisition. Almost all systems of any language are acquired by first language learners relatively easily and early. There are exceptions like the complete click consonant inventory of some African languages are not completely acquired by native speakers until the age of twelve. However, it is impossible to judge that one entire language is more difficult than any other language. Any academic who tries to tell you that one language is ‘the most difficult in the world’ is either very ignorant about human language or a charlatan. I leave it up to you to judge which is true of our friend Dr. Huer.
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@Wangkon:
I spared you from being humiliated by that Frenchman who thinks he talks English better than us ‘mericuns.
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“How hard one language may be to you really depends on your background. For example, for a Spanish speaker learning French is relatively easy. For a German, learning English is relatively easy.”
It’s not that simple. Some would argue that the differences are far more easily integrated than the similarities as they are more evident. Either way, the comparative and contrastive arguments have been refuted by research.
“However, given that English is a Frankinstein monster of sorts with words from Latin, Greece, France, German, etc. with a totally bizzare”
It’s not as if English is the only language that has loan-words…
“…and unpredictable spelling convention that English has to be one of the hardest languages in the world, relatively speaking.”
Based on that criteria alone, one could easily argue that French is harder than English. Have a look at French verb conjugation, for example. Convention? What’s that? The most important grammatical rule to remember in French is that there are always exceptions to the rules.
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#26,
No need. He did a fine job by himself.
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Jon Huer is a Korean who lived on the streets of Seoul until about 13 back in the 1950s and early 1960s, if I correctly recall what he once told me.
He was then adopted and educated in the US. He is, in fact, an insightful and interesting person to speak with . . . though I sometimes have difficulty following his writing. I met him back in 2003 when he was accused of ‘Orientalism’ by a Westerner who wrote a letter to the Korea Herald protesting an article that Huer had written. The writer assumed — on the basis of the family name — that Huer was also a Westerner.
Just for the record…
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
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I have to agree with Brendon, with three years of Latin under my belt, I found Korean easy not because of its similarity, but because every time I encountered something that was difficult in Korea I remembered how absurd Latin was by comparison and was thankful, grateful rather, to be learning a language so regular and straightforward.
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““How hard one language may be to you really depends on your background. For example, for a Spanish speaker learning French is relatively easy. For a German, learning English is relatively easy.”
It’s not that simple. Some would argue that the differences are far more easily integrated than the similarities as they are more evident. Either way, the comparative and contrastive arguments have been refuted by research. ”
As a rule, yes, but the somewhat milder version of Contrastive Analysis Hypothesis (CAH), cross-linguistic influence (CLI), has not been so refuted, because it is far less rigid.
I think it is fine to talk about the tendency for Japanese learners of Korean to make quicker progress that French ones (and French learners of Spanish probably learning faster than their Japanese counterparts) as long as one recognizes this process isn’t written in stone.
Anticipating how a student’s linguistic background might impact on her/his progress in the class is just common sense, as long as one remains open to the possibility of sometimes being surprised.
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That’s only because you’re too got-damned stupid to perform such simple tasks yourselves.
I’m convinced the only reason USC grads can even handle wiping their own asses is because their diplomas make such fine toilet paper.
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Brendon,
Korean and Latin are similar because they are both what Steven Pinker would call mix-and-match languages. In other words, the noun’s function in the sentence is not indicated by the word order, but by the fact that the noun takes a certain shape. (Conjugation in Latin, addition of particle in Korean.)
So for example, “Dog bites man” and “Man bites dog” are different sentences in English. But “Canus hominem mordet” and “Hominem canus mordet” mean the same thing. And “개가 사람을 물다” and “사람을 개가 물다” mean the same.
I know everyone takes a different approach in learning a foreign language, but mine is decidedly grammar-oriented. In that sense, I’m having a fairly easy time learning Latin thanks to my prior knowledge in Korean grammar.
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One of the things that encouraged me in my Korean language study was the number of Koreans who told me flatly, “Foreigners can’t learn Korean — it’s too difficult for anyone but Koreans”.
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Yes, but the first word order example is far more common than the second, especially when particles are omitted in spoken Korean.
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Mr. Wang (#7),
What’s so great about “Rob’s” post? I do not see anything really wrong with Jon Huer’s post, and I certainly did not learn anything from Robert’s “critique” of it.
Having a bad day, Robert?
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#37,
That’s what an insecure person would say to an English teacher or Anglophone coworker to make himself or herself feel better about the fact that he or she struggles in English.
The irony of that statement is that South-East Asians are expected to pick up Korean quickly…and many do. I’ve met one particularly intelligent guy who spoke accent-less Korean after having been here for a year.
As for English teachers learning Korean…I once submitted a job application to my school for a friend of a friend who was perfectly fluent in Korean. The only comment I got in return was, “Does he want to teach English or practice his Korean with the students?”.
Another problem is that Korean is being taught with the same approach that Korean English teachers follow than anything else…It just doesn’t cut it if the student is an experienced language teacher.
The relatively small number of well-researched textbooks certainly doesn’t help either.
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Wow, I am, like Brendon shocked. Thekorean really does say some fascinating things that are worthy of further study.
Do you think that Latin is easier to learn than English for native Korean speakers? Because of the grammatical structure?
Don’t you find all the endless conjugations tiresome? I found these aspects of Russian and German tiresome. So much pointless stuff to learn. Just so that people can reverse the word order? For poetic effect!?! Like four and twenty blackbirds?
Regarding your example with the man and the dog. Do you think that the way mathematic is written favours certain language groups? Like “7 > 4″ and “4 > 7″? The ordering of the symbols picks out which statement is correct. Don’t you think that’s more elegant than adding subscripts to everything?
Now Chinese grammar is very elegant. If it weren’t for the pictograms and the tones I think Chinese would be a relatively easy language to learn. If you’ve ever heard Japanese people being confused over what particle endings to use in Korean, or vice-versa, you’ll know what I mean.
I’ve heard what agadan is saying before. I’ve also heard linguists rejecting the idea that “a language” can be defined. Nonsense! All they need is a full English breakfast and a spot of application.
Clearly there are aspects of languages that make them harder than they could be. If there was only jondaemal in Korean, if there was only common gender in Latin, if there were less cases in Finnish, if spelling was regular in English…
I’d be very surprised if half the world’s language groups thought that learning Latin was easier than learning Italian. Italian is after all based on a simplified version of Latin. If a Finnish person told me that learning Latin was easier than learning Italian I wouldn’t really believe them. One ought to be able to conclude that Italian is easier than Latin, no?
Another thing I’d be interested in knowing more about is the process of grammar simplification. It seems to me that languages tend to gradually simplify formal structures over time. Vocabulary changes, styles change, but when was the lass time a grammar spontaneously became more formal without being a result of creolization? English genders went from three to one, the second person pronoun was simplified (although the second person plural still holds out in “you guys”, “you all”, “you lot” and “yous”). Some native speakers seem intent on simplifying verb conjugations, “I goes”, “you goes”. We may even learn to live without the definite article. A Yorkshireman once said to me “Bus’ll come on other of road”. Internationalization will probably drive this in English. All good stuff if you ask me. That’s one of the reasons I hate language Nazis. – Sonagi
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Another random thought while we’re off topic. English spelling isn’t regular but it isn’t as bad as Hanja. I’ve noticed that the Hangulizations of Torquay and Hartlepool are both wrong on MBC-ESPN. A friend once heard an Australian asking for directions to Loo-guh-bo-roo-guh, when he really wanted to go to Loughborough.
Just think of the names as pictograms. Torquay is a 10 stroke character that represents the name of the city (and provides some phonetic and etymological hints). If you wanted to save space you could write all the strokes on top of one another or bunched up into a little block.
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well, for the record I didn’t say what I said was generally true for everyone across space and time. I only mean to say that grammar-oriented approach works for me very well. Being a product of Korean education system, rote memorization never scares me. And even with simple grammar structure like Chinese, you still have to resort to brute memorization to learn the vocabs anyway.
So yes, if you are a grammar-oriented learner like me, knowledge of Korean grammar helps a lot in learning Latin. And conjugations are not tiresome for me.
As to comparison to math and Chinese… I respectfully disagree. I also have a decent grasp of Chinese grammar (never got around to developing a big set of vocab, so overall skill is poor.) When I first learned Chinese, I thought it was such a primitive language because it was SO reliant on word order. Of course, like you said, there is a certain elegance in its simplicity. (And yes, Chinese is so easy. It was the easy language I ever learned.) But to me, the beauty of language lies in that it is NOT math. Deliberate ambiguity is the heart of all beautiful writing. In that sense, I actually like Korean a lot in that it lets you drop even the subject without any indication.
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That Loughborough, the second-largest town in Leicestershire, England is pronounced Luff-burro, Lestersh by the English only seems fiendish until you visit Wales.
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Having learned Spanish, German, Korean, Chinese, and Japanese, I agree. Chinese has no verb conjugations and fewer particles to master. Foreigners in China tend to pick up oral language proficiency rather quickly.
Chinese excels Latin and Greek in its word-building, too. I realized this as I built up academic content vocabulary by helping Korean students work though material at an international school in China. We’d look up a word together, and I’d remember it after seeing it once by noting the character components. It’s much easier for a Korean, Japanese, or Chinese elementary school student to understand and remember what a 분자 / 分子 and a 분모 / 分母 (literally part-child and part-mother)are than for an English-speaking kid to memorize the terms “numerator” and “denominator.” Consider these examples from science:
planet 행성 / 行星 “moving celestial body”
rotation 회전 / 回轉 “return turn”
esophagus 식도 / 食道 “food path”
germination 발아 / 發芽 “arise sprout”
evaporation 증발 / 蒸發 “steam arise”
I believe one reason why Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese excel in science and math is that the terminology is easier to understand and remember.
I’ve not had much experience listening to Japanese speak Korean, but I did take two sessions of Japanese at Yonsei’s FLI and noticed that my Korean classmates didn’t seem to struggle too much with Japanese particles. I also noticed that they were able to respond much more quickly in Japanese than I could. I could formulate correct responses with correct grammar and syntax but it took me longer. I attribute the early difference in fluency to the fact that I was thinking in English while they were thinking in Korean. In beginning Chinese at the FLI, I had the syntactical fluency advantage; that large mass of shared Chinese-Korean cognates doesn’t really kick in until intermediate level.
I know there is lots of research debunking the relationship between L1-L2 similarities and differences and L2 acquisition. However, my own experiences learning European and non-European languages alongside speakers of other languages and my own extensive experience teaching English to speakers of many languages leads me to believe that language transfer does exist and provides at least an initial boost in the early stages of language learning.
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Pictograms [or rather, logograms] represent only a fraction of Chinese characters. Most sinograms (a good neologism for 漢字) are phonologograms, characters with an indication of both sound (pronunciation) and meaning.
Tones can be hard — especially if your own language is not tonal — although, Mandarin is one of the simpler tonal systems existing out there. When I was in grad school, we played a bit with different tonal languages in the phonetics lab, and languages like Burmese, Viêtnamese or Cantonese can really give you a run for your money.
As for learning sinograms, I guess it depends how you approach the task, and who teaches you. Our colleagues in the Chinese department were force-fed 25 characters a week for 3 school years, and it worked, apparently. For us in the Korean department, the process was a little more gentle, and definitely [not *definately] more fun, and those who managed to graduate with an MA knew, or were supposed to know, 6,000 characters. I think one of the thing that helped is that nobody among the professors ever made a big deal of it or ever hinted that it would be too hard for us to learn.
I don’t. But writing in proper English is apparently an impossible task for some of the natives here…
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Let’s not forget to mention dialects. Can you understand all the English dialects?
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Most of the weirdness about Korea can be attributable to the Confucian sect of this country and more specifically the last 2 presidents who were neo-confucian/communist.
They have been trying to indoctrinate Confucian thought and group think on a massive scale. One of the defining characteristics of a collectivist society is group think and its ability to take group think and alter reality for many folks.
Its why you get these massive beef protests, arranged by the extreme left wing and then the next day, Koreans become the #1 importer of US beef.
National Assembly brawls can be attributed to the left wing party, whhatever they are called today. They are basically doing everything they can to maintain socialist media, and economic policies.
Minerva and other individuals that pop up in the media are mostly southern Koreans who grew up in a Confucian home but lived in a non-Confucian country and when they enter the real world they cannot themselves due to the competition and arising jealousy.
BTW when you hear a Confucian talk about harmony they are specifically referring to a lack of competition or elimination of which creates “harmony” this applies specifically to mates which incur the most jealous and rage.
The thing that makes this country confusing for alot of people is that this society is not a Confucian one. Most European/Western folks need to understand this very straightforward fact. People need to also understand that there is a neo-liberal party which cannot handle a society without Confucianism so we get all these weird events on a national scale.
A good example of this confusion within Korea, is the fact that the Koreans dont attribute Roh’s policies to Confucian/Communism their natural line of thought is to call him a moron. A confucian society would of easily recognized Roh for what he is extremely quickly.
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I almost forgot a really important point. This lack of Confucianism in Korean society is not really known by alot of Koreans themselves.
Confucian Koreans, who are btw the same people as the Japanese, are doing whatever they can to convince Korea that it has always been a Confucian society. The reality is the completely opposite.
Confucianists and Buddhists have been persecuted and slaved for almost 1300 years, a fact that Confucians in Korea and the Japanese cannot have known, which is also why Japan is a neo-Confucian soceity with nearly 84% of the population being Buddhist. In Korea, only 23% are Buddhist.
So how is it possible that this society who is apparently traditionally rooted in Buddhism has more Christians than Buddhists? It isn’t, when you have a country rooted in Buddhism for centuries you get a situation like Japan who in the face of western influence still maintain their culture.
I’m sure alot of Japs and pro-Japs are going to crawl out of their hole and claim Koreans are brain washed and love the US or something but public opinion is currently the opposite for such an explanation to make sense.
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Huer failed to get tenure at first Purdue and then Alabama Birmingham. Then he wrote his most famous work about the irrelevancy of tenure and the failure of the professoriat.
His writing reinforces what I’ve said to many western colleagues: you can’t really understand Korea until you know the language.
It’s also eerie how strong the correlation is between language-ability and affect-towards-Korea.
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19: I agree completely. The grammar is not that hard if you’ve studied Latin. That’s also why Spanish and French native speakers learn Korean so much easier than we EFLs.
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Latin is definitely an easier language for Koreans to learn than English and Italian because of:
-Orthography
-Lack of articles (even among Koreans fluent in English correct article usage is almost nonexistent)
-Cases
There’s a good example of what news in Latin looks and sounds like here:
http://ephemeris.alcuinus.net/nuntius.php?id=423
When determining whether a person knowing language x would have an easy or hard time with language y, usually the best way is to think about whether the person from language x has something in their native tongue that corresponds exactly or almost exactly to language y. If you can explain to a Korean that the Latin accusative is pretty much like 를 then for the most part the student is now able to use it, but with something like articles there’s no point of reference so it has to be explained from scratch.
In the same way if someone knowing Latin wants to know about 를 you can tell them it’s mostly like -m in aquam do.
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#52,
You forgot to mention that it hasn’t evolved in hundreds of years because it has no native speakers. Consequently, everyone who studies it will eventually learn the same dialect and expressions. Learners of Latin don’t have to worry about hip new slang and colloquialisms (not to mention local dialects).
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>You forgot to mention that it hasn’t evolved in >hundreds of years because it has no native speakers. >Consequently, everyone who studies it will eventually >learn the same dialect and expressions.
That’s very true. It’s also one of the arguments put forth by us IAL proponents (my favourite is one called Occidental: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqHD5oXnGFk ) because of the opportunity to (mostly) develop new slang and colloquialisms all at the same time.
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Yes and no. Latin evolved over hundreds of years, and it is reflected in the texts that are still available. The language used by Pilatus, or Julius Caesar, is very different from Vulgar Latin, and from Neo-Latin, the language used after the Renaissance.
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>You forgot to mention that it hasn’t evolved in >hundreds of years because it has no native speakers. >Consequently, everyone who studies it will eventually >learn the same dialect and expressions.
That’s very true. It’s also one of the arguments put forth by us IAL proponents (my favourite is one called Occidental) because of the opportunity to (mostly) develop new slang and colloquialisms all at the same time.
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I think I understand what you say.
For those that are not of Korean heritage, living in Korea, they are Korean enthusiasts. There is a subculture of kids in LA who like worship Japanese culture. Anime and stuff like that. So there might be some young visitors who really like Korea and get into it.
For the U.S. servicepersons in Korea they have no choice. For others perhaps their personal interest in the culture, language or maybe their children, family or other things keeps them there. I think probably a couple of guys served in Korea and really liked the place and are constantly striving to make a life for themselves there.
For me, I think it is very difficult for a person from a large culturally open country to live in such a small place– ethnically, linguistically, culturally and otherwise. It’s just not very diverse and so it keeps letting you down on many levels.
This is probably my only post here. Hope to do more but am busy.
China is obviously much larger. China is where my wife and our daughter hail from.
Once again, RJK I am not sure why my default nationality is French but I am surely a Yankee.
In fact, my Chinese friends and I joke about Koreans, “Yankee go home.”
Best guys.
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P.S. As to those ungrateful Koreans in regards to the American service people there.
Just laugh in their face and tell them that you agree– all U.S. servicepersons should immediately be removed from Korea and be stationed at places that serve our national interest; and, that Korea is simply an ethnic province of China that holds no value to the U.S.– like Manchuria or Tibet.
That will get you a few laughs at your next cocktail party in China, and a redfaced Korean, to boot.
Later guys.
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P.S. As to those ungrateful Koreans in regards to the American service people there.
Just laugh in their face and tell them that you agree– all U.S. servicepersons should immediately be removed from Korea and be stationed at places that serve our national interest; and, that Korea is simply an ethnic province of China that holds no value to the U.S.– like Manchuria or Tibet.
David, I am a Korean-American who believes that continued US military presence on the peninsula is an outdated Cold War relic, much like the embargo against Cuba, which is of diminished relevance in today’s reality.
But you will have to explain to me why Koreans should be grateful to US service people. Grateful for what, exactly? Is there some heavy “sacrifice” that GIs are bearing these days on behalf of the Korean people? Is there a lot of undue hardship involved in a life of patronizing juicy girl bars and assaulting local cab drivers?
The reason why American young people join the military is because they think Uncle Sam will help pay for their college education or because they are a minority from inner-city areas who had few other options after high school. It’s not to “save” Korea, or anyplace else for that matter, OK? Let’s just get that through your head.
Or are you referring to the men who actually fought and died during the Korean War? Or in other words, the accomplishments and deeds of a previous generation which you had absolutely nothing to do with. This is also assuming, of course, that we’re buying into the well-sold myth that America’s wars were fought for freedom and all that jazz and not that Korea was simply a pawn in a game of geopolitical chess during the Red Scare times of the 1950s. No one’s that naive, David. Nations do not have “friends”, only interests. Grow up and cut the bullshit already.
It may very well be that Korea holds no strategic importance for America, as you claim. I’m sure that is precisely the reason why America got involved in the Korean War in the first place. Along with 20 other nations. Explain to me why is it that only Americans demand gratefulness from Koreans and never the Turks, Greeks, Columbians, Ethiopians, etc?
Explain also why Koreans should be grateful for America’s “protection” which only applies if Korea is of some strategic importance. Oh, wait a minute, wasn’t America’s involvement in Korea about highfaluting ideals like “freedom” and being “allies” and all that horsehit? Which is it, asshole? Or do you just like to talk shit out of both sides of your mouth?
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NK: “David, I am a Korean-American who believes that continued US military presence on the peninsula is an outdated Cold War relic, much like the embargo against Cuba, which is of diminished relevance in today’s reality.”
I echo those sentiments.
NK: “But you will have to explain to me why Koreans should be grateful to US service people. Grateful for what, exactly?”
Knowledgable Koreans ARE greatful to U.S. taxpayors for the lives sacrified, cand for footing the bill for Korea’s economic development by extending the capital, markets, technologies and military spending that have allowed Korea to develop to its current era of prosperity and security. By shouldering the military burden for Korea, the U.S. has allowed Korea to take advantage of tremendous economic leverage. The cost sharing is still inequitable, as is trade policy.
Regarding the men and women in uniform, anyone who enters U.S. military service not only faces service faces hardships but puts his/her life in harm’s way. You mention “juicy bars.” They are no bargain, a poor substitute for companionship, and this is not a form of compensation.
NK: “Explain to me why is it that only Americans demand gratefulness from Koreans and never the Turks, Greeks, Columbians, Ethiopians, etc?”
I have never heard that Americans demand gratefulness, only parity. Isn’t it natural that Americans would be upset for not being shown due consideration for their good will, instead of falsely scapegoated for a multitude of manufactured crimes?
NK: “Nations do not have “friends”, only interests.”
True, but that does not mean that they do not show good or ill will toward other nations.
And this is seldom an even exchange. There has not been parity in the relationship as Korea has benefited disproportionately from American largesse at the great expense of U.S. taxpayers and consumers. I am tired of footing the bill for a nation that appears to believe that the only equitable alliance is one that is a one way street or a zero sum game.
However, the U.S. has only itself to blame. Obviously, there is a real strategic reason for a U.S. presence in East Asia, which causes the U.S. to cede far too much to Korea, and to demand far too little. Only Korea has the real estate required by U.S. military and inteligence.
While Obama appears hip to these realities and there is some buzz that he may attempt to hold Korea’s feet to the fire, I say, don’t hold your breath. It is a dysfunctional relationship, but it must be benefiting someone, right?
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Dear Netizenkim,
Incidentally, my sister is adopted from Korea. My grandfather’s brother also fought in Korea. In the Frozen Chosun. He’s dead now.
So, I would say that I have some contact with Korea whether you like it or not. And I lived in Korea for two years.
On to the substantive aspects of your post, I just think we should all move on. The U.S. servicepeople should be taken out of Korea. Shit, there are a lot of guys in Afghanistan and Iraq that deserve a break.
You guys defend your own country. We, in turn, will defend ours. I don’t want you to be my bride, nor do you want to be mine. Protecting Northeast Asia and involving Americans in that defense does not serve the national interest of Americans other than to pay for you guys to export stuff to our country, and your stuff is not so cheap these days.
Other than that, you guys are sitting on a highly contested lump of clay (your more powerful neighbors have their claims) that doesn’t have a very good growing season.
I have seen more American products and cars in China than I ever saw in Korea. Look, things have to change.
Later.
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As a side note, a friend of mine forwarded an idea– to put the Korean peninsula, both North and South, under a Chinese protectorate.
In other words, my hope is that China could potentially guarantee the autonomy of both North and South Korea under a security umbrella provided by China. Allowing U.S. troops to withdraw.
It could be a 50 year agreement or something like that. In other words, for 50 years, North and South Korea could work out their differences without the involvement of America, but under the protection of the People’s Republic of China. Also, the U.S. could sign on as a party to the agreement. As sort of subrogated interest.
I think this would be an incredibly positive development, not only for the Korean people, but for the American taxpayer.
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Uh, David. About the “bride thing”. Yeah….not sure what that’s about but, OK, I don’t want to be your bride either or vice versa. Glad we could clear that up.
BTW, I am a US citizen. So that stuff you wrote about “you guys defend your own country” is more than a little retarded. Would you tell your adopted sister to “go defend her country” meaning Korea? C’mon man, don’t be such a simpleton.
Finally, regarding Korea and Northeast Asia in general. Yeah, I agree that the US military currently sitting idle in Korea should be reallocated to Iraq and Afghanistan were they are much badly needed. In fact, I’ve been saying as much here on this blog for the past 3 years or so. But not for exactly the same reasons as you, I suspect. In fact, I think we ought to go back to the core fundamentals and rethink this whole “entangling alliances” business. But then again neither one of us is Joint Chiefs of Staff or The Decider, are we?
Sorry I called you an asshole.
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If you didn’t seem like a decent fellow, I’d ask if you and your friend were on crack when you came up with that frightful idea.
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Nah, just another Amerikan from Dumbfuckingstan who flunked history AND international relations.
That idea is truly hideous in addition to typically short-sighted and ignorant of geopolitical realities and/or histories.
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By the way, NetizenKim, this hackneyed description is more than a little bit disappointing. There are a variety of reasons people join the military, and when I was in, more than a few were there because it was a family tradition to serve — a patriotic duty because they love America. I don’t know why it is that so many other (non-serving) Americans completely dismiss this as a valid motivation.
It ain’t all hopeless, unskilled Negroes. In fact, I think the military creams off the more skilled Negroes from the community. And it gets a lot of immigrant children as well. The overall education level of both the enlisted ranks and the officer corps is significantly higher than America as a whole. The institution of the military is, to put it bluntly, better than you.
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Dear NetizenKim,
I agree with you. Perhaps for different reasons, yes. Thanks for your apology, we are probably both not assholes. At least we both seem to care.
I have my firm here in Hong Kong now and live in the Guangdong area of China. People here are pretty pragmatic and non-dogmatic.
I hate to see the incessant saber rattling going on with the South Korean people in regards to their relationship with the U.S. all the time. Frankly, it is tiring and an international embarassment to both parties. And believe me, everybody else is laughing at both, viewing it as weakness.
Sonagi, I am sure you are a good guy too. I think that a joint security agreement placing China in a non-intervening but protecting role is a very good idea, with the U.S. secondarily responsible. It is well understood that Japan in under our security umbrella, so there is no overt threat there. The real agreement would need to be worked out between the PRC and the U.S., the two largest, most influential parties at the table.
Well, I think Kissinger could do it.
Brendon, I agree with you the quality of U.S. servicepeople is greatly underatted in South Korea. By using their media to stereotype the U.S. servicepeople, they can put them in a box and call them all a bunch of rejects. Truly not the case, the servicepeople in Korea are doing a great job and they need more credit from the Korean people for putting their very lives on the line for that country’s freedom and independence. However, using the term “Negroes” is not the appropriate nonmenclature and doesn’t advance your good cause.
Oy vey, back to my original thoughts– foreigners in Korea– you guys are a hardy group it seems, certainly persistent; but there by choice? I hope that through your efforts there you can improve the human rights of all people in Korea and generally.
Otherwise, come down here.
It is, well, it’s certainly more enjoyable than South Korea, here in the People’s Republic of China.
It’s all about China and the U.S. building a better world jointly and cooperatively. I hope that the protectionists, nay-sayers, obstructionists, vested interests and others don’t get in the way.
I think the prospects are very good. I am an optimist.
Later guys.
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You’re half-right.
Do the Korean people have any say in this matter?
I haven’t been down to China, but I have been over to China; I enjoyed my four-year sojourn immensely. However, if I leave the US again, I’ll opt for South Korea over China, not because I think Korea is ‘better’ than China, but because Korea is a better fit for my lifestyle and interests.
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Sonagi,
Well, such is the case. If you have been over to China then so be it. My sense is, however, that you are probably a Korean American male and a non-adoptee. South Korea is perfect for you. You can play on your parent’s Korean ethnicity along with your U.S. passport and have many opportunities.
As to the foreigners in Korea, look up other locales in Asia; for example Hong Kong, Singapore or other locations.
In conclusion, my strong advice to the foreigners in Korea who have a choice is to leave Korea. You guys don’t deserve the treatment you get there– always on the defensive. It is pathetic.
We only live once, and unfornately we are not getting younger with time.
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You’re still batting .500. I’m not sure how many years you’ve been using the internet, but one must be careful when one enters an established online forum and makes assumptions about the regulars.
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#70,
That is true. It took me several months to figure out that Sonagi was actually a Belgian hermaphrodite illegally staying in the USA on an expired H-3 visa.
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Sonagi,
Okay, Captain. Aye-Aye sir. LOL.
Where did you get your Doctorate from, oh wise one?
And as to your veiled threat, you bring your netizens down here at anytime just give me notice.
I will scare up a couple of million disgruntled laborers who are not pleased with you Koreans locking people out of their factories and not paying them for two months labor while hiding behind the U.S. flag, which incidentally the Taiwanese and Japanese did not do.
They paid the workers and did not greedily seek to disenfranchise others while hiding behind our good name.
And don’t make any veiled threats toward me.
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“But you will have to explain to me why Koreans should be grateful to US service people. Grateful for what, exactly? Is there some heavy “sacrifice” that GIs are bearing these days on behalf of the Korean people? Is there a lot of undue hardship involved in a life of patronizing juicy girl bars and assaulting local cab drivers?”
Whoa, whoa, whoa…hold the phone please. Mizar5 #10 summed it up quite well, but your comments were totally uncalled for and sweeping generalizations. Being a Korean-American I bet you don’t like when people make such statements about Koreans.
First of all, yeah it is hardship. The average joe that is sent over here is 18-24, away from friends and family, in a foreign country, where the people are obviously NOT friendly. Your comment asking why Koreans should be grateful proves that. GI’s don’t walk around thinking Koreans should be grateful, but being treated with a little respect and decency goes a long way.
Yeah, some joes go for juicy girls, but why wouldn’t they? See my above statement. Young, naive, far away from home, feeling lonely, girl shows attention and they get sucked in. And I assure it isn’t just joe (hello there are OTHER expats here) going for the juicy’s, but nice way to scapegoat.
I will concur that some joes have assaulted cabbies, but NOT all of them do! Again, I reference my first point. And come on, the cabbies aren’t all sugar and spice. I don’t condone the actions of the joes that did assault the cabbies, but having been fleeced by numerous cabbies I can see where a young, intoxicated joe can get a little heated and does something stupid. Of course you fail to mention that Koreans like to start fights too. Especially DRUNK men, young and old. I think you can find plenty of evidence on the various Korean blogs that counter your misguided statement.
Korean on foreigner crime exists, but it is swept under the rug, so please do not villify joes based off of, um, yeah, what is your information based off of? Let me guess, Korean media? Here are some things that happened that most, if not all of my Korean friends had NO idea about: Soldier killed by cabbie, Soldier killed by bus, Soldier stabbed/killed by “crazy” adjusshi, English teacher raped but treated like the criminal, plus various instances where drunk adjusshi starts something with a foreigner and the foreigner is blamed/arrested even when innocent, need I go on?
Oh yes, but the crimes that joe does commit are highly publicized and one sided at best. I’m sure the death of two school will be brought up, but was that accurately reported in the Korean press? No, no it wasn’t. But should I be surprised when the very same media reports that Koreans are predisposed to Mad Cow thus whipping a whole nation into a frenzy.
“The reason why American young people join the military is because they think Uncle Sam will help pay for their college education or because they are a minority from inner-city areas who had few other options after high school. It’s not to “save” Korea, or anyplace else for that matter, OK? Let’s just get that through your head.”
Seriously? How did you come about making this assessment? The reasons that young people join the military vary greatly. Why on earth wouldn’t someone consider the military as a viable option to pay for college? That is just plain smart in my book.
I know this may be hard to believe, but there are a LOT of people who join the military because they are patriots, who believe in America and what it stands for. Speaking from personal experience, being a white, female, with a BA in History BEFORE I joined the military and from a middle class family, I joined because I wanted to do something bigger than myself. I wasn’t trying to escape anything and I did have other options, but this is what I choose to do. You would be shocked at how well educated our Servicemembers especially you since think we mostly come from the inner city with no hopes of a future.
Yeah, America has a hell of a lot problems, but what this country was founded on, justice, freedom, equality is something that I find admirable and I raised my right hand and swore to defend it. You’re right, I didn’t join the military to “save” Korea and neither did anyone else, but this is where they sent me and I am going to do my job regardless of how I feel about the situation.
There are a million or so strong Servicemembers that volunteer to SERVE their country so people like you can continue to degrade us freely. Their motiviation is irrelevant because they are still doing something that YOU won’t or my guess is can’t do.
I haven’t even touched on the whole Iraq/Afghan thing, but hey that is for another day. So yeah, it is a sacrifice to be stuck here, be treated like crap by the Koreans AND by our fellow countrymen.
Again, I don’t know what you are basing your opinions on but why don’t you take an afternoon and go to the local VA and actually talk to some Soldiers (my guess is that you’ve never actually taken the time to know any, just judge) who recently have sacrificed an arm, a leg or mental clarity to get a better understanding. At least I am trying to understand Korea/Koreans!
Oh btw, what heavy sacrifice have you made for your country lately?
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