It seems that international tourism in Seoul has hit a language snag. I’ve had the same happen in Cheju-do as well when attempting to rent a car.
Just Hang It Up . . .
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If only I had a 100 won every time the phone is hung up on me because I speak in English or in a Korean dialect that the person at the other end of the line doesn’t understand…
I’m disappointed that many of the hotels – or innostels, whatever Konglish bs they’re called – in question simply hung up on hearing English.
It’s much more entertaining when you have the opportunity to play the 여보세요? game – Answer the phone in English, and they’ll inevitably reply: 여보세요?; You: Hello, Them:여보세요?; and carry this on several times until you really start messing with their heads by throwing in a 여보세요? yourself. Hours of fun!
The 여보세요? game used to far more entertaining five years ago when the level of English was much lower than today. Nowadays, many at least know ‘Sorry, me no English”.
I saw an ad in the Seoul subway a few weeks ago. Top left: picture of an old Korean boss in a suit. Top right: kimchi pots in a kimchi factory. Bottom left: picture of an industrial fishing boat at sea surrounded by seagulls. Bottom right: a blurb in Korean talking about how great Korea is, followed by the English icon of… Korean Sparkling!
Holy Crap! I can’t even count all the ways that was the exact opposite of a proper tourism campaign! Any fourth grader could do a better job than these fools! The only way it made any sense to me is that the tourism campaigns are really a means to make Koreans feel good about themselves. “Look how advanced we are and how much we’ve developed in such a short time, of course people want to come and visit us,” was the only thing that ad seemed to be saying.
Hah. I play the 여보세요 game but backwards when telemarketers call me.
legal disclaimer: All Korean officials are doing a great job, and I whole heartily support Korean tourism initiatives and think everyone should plan their next holiday to Korea. So please don’t Minerva me.
I would have liked the article more if the reporter (well, editor, actually) had tried the hotels again in Japanese or Chinese… the languages much more likely to be used at those sorts of venues.
Not saying the same thing wouldn’t happen. But I know a lot of hotels in Seoul that are much better at Japanese than English. Especially in the Jongno/Junggu area. Considering the demographics of Korea’s tourist trade, I’m not sure English is the be-all-and-end-all of many of the hotels.
That’s a good idea “mlsy#*%u!”. That could have been more interesting since Korea wants tourism from everywhere and not just those who speak English. The Renaissance Hotel at Yoksam gets lots of Japanese, thus they are quite capable of handling that.
Perhaps a English-capable coordinator that people could call to book hotels would be a great idea, but it would want more than one person.
As far as I know, Japanese is easier and cheaper for Koreans to learn than English. Probably for Mandarin too. Is it possible that Korea will be better off economically by focusing more on Japanese and Mandarin rather than on English so much?
“Innostel”? Innovative + Hostel? God help us all…That pretty much sums up the English language communication problem in Korea. Other notable butheries of the English language: Officetel (Office + Hotel), Saladent (Student earning a salary as a side job).
I became painfully aware of this ridiculous trend of combining accepted words to arrive at new ones when I first heard the expression “taekbae” (taek for house + pedal) to describe home deliveries.
What’s downright sad is the clueless, solipsistic Korean attitude toward such ridiculous expressions. I can’t tell you how many times I was tripped up by the inaccurate adaptations of English where there is already a perfectly fine Korean phrase that can explain the concept. What happens is that the original meaning of an English term gets lost and when the phrase is communicated to a non-Korean, misunderstandings result. At Samsung, this was not only a trend, but one that was encouraged in the official reporting manual which mandated that a certain number of Chinese and English phrases be used in all reports.
I guest lectured one time at Kyeong Nam University in Taegu in the 1970s, when one of the students, in an attempt to sound educated dropped the name “Gwaetae.” When I asked who this person was, he actually called me ignorant in front of the entire class. I do not believe that he would not have said this to a regular non-Gyopo Korean lecturer. I later discovered that he was using a Koreanized pronunciation of the German name Goethe. The problem is, I had learned the proper pronunciation of that name and couldn’t understand his unrecognizable version.
I sat in numerous meetings at Samsung mulling over an English phrase to attempt to grasp the concept the reporter was actually trying to convey. Sometimes people would ask me for clarifications, and I would politely defer the explanation of the term to the presenter rather than embarrasing him by explaining that the phrase was either made up or misused. The majority of the time I learned that the phrase was deliberately intended to be vague so as to convey the impression that the speaker was privy to special knowledge that the listener lacked.
The problem is that the use of English in Korean has been identified as a means of affecting sophistication rather than accurately conveying a concept. As long as English is viewed as a means to obfuscate rather than elucidate, there will be a dearth of bona fide attempts to properly learn English as a means of communication.
That sort of rampant bulshitting, my friends, is one of the reasons that Koreans do not (as opposed to can not) learn English.
Something similar can be said of Chinese characters as well. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve listened to lecturers attempt to reinterpret Chinese words to explain or even justify a concept they were attempting to convey.
Truth of the matter is, English is just too damn hard and a hassle for Koreans to learn properly. I for one will not blame them for abusing something that’s being forced down their throat.
JW:”As far as I know, Japanese is easier and cheaper for Koreans to learn than English. Probably for Mandarin too. Is it possible that Korea will be better off economically by focusing more on Japanese and Mandarin rather than on English so much?”
You appear to miss the fact that national sensitivity/intellectual laziness prevents Koreans from learning English or Japanese properly. I’m not sure how much time you’ve actually spent in Korea, but in the nearly 20 years that I lived there, I did not observe any demonstrable improvement in English language skills since the 1970s. In fact, I believe second language skills have grown worse. Given the amount of resources devoted to language skills, there must be a root cultural cause for this (see my post above for one of them).
Japanese and Chinese are indeed good second languages to learn, but the need for English remains primary, given its general acceptance as the international language (apologies to French).
Korea is a good language in Korea, and there is no need to overcomplicate it with needless foreign phrases. However, the improper English that Koreans do learn just happens to serve them poorly outside Korea.
BTW, pardon me for referring to all cultures in the 3rd person – I am equally critical toward all of them. Americans, too, generally lack 2nd language skills. The difference is that they are not a small, export-driven nation that depends on a foreign language for communication and that studies it intensively throughout their school years and in private academies as well. I know of no other nation on earth that displays such resistance to learning a language that they acknowledge to be essential.
JW: “Truth of the matter is, English is just too damn hard and a hassle for Koreans to learn properly. I for one will not blame them for abusing something that’s being forced down their throat.”
True enough. The feeling of being forced to learn a foreign language incites some very basic Korean emotions.
Ah, the 여보세요 게임:
http://www.koreabridge.com/jobforums/viewtopic.php?t=168
# 10 and # 12,
OMG, Like when they receive KOREAN GOVERNMENT $$$ to market/sell Korean Tourism and they hang up the Gosh Darn phone, give me a break. If the managment of Korean innostels/hotels/motels etc… can’t teach employees to take a reservation then they may as well jump off a bridge.
It’s like, I want a pizza from Pizza Hut in Korea or Pappa Johns, and they bring me a Family size pizza when I haven’t ever ordered such a pizza from them before(and they bring me thin crust when I’ve always ordered thick). How the hell does this STUPID CRAP happen?
It’s not learning English that is the question, it’s only specific type or let’s say “Business English.” After years of learning English, is it REALLY too much to expect a Korean to speak a little English, to ask…DUUUH WHAT SIZE???
#8,10
Not really. Despite what many Korean learners of Japanese or Chinese may have told you, there is no clear correlation between the similarities (or differences) that exist a first and second language and fluency acquired in the target language. Simply put, just because Korean, Japanese and Chinese share the same word order and some lexical items doesn’t mean that Korean learners of Japanese or Chinese will be able to learn these languages than a native speaker of any other language.
Look up comparative and contrastive linguistics.
…exist between…and the fluency…
“Innostel”? Innovative + Hostel? God help us all…That pretty much sums up the English language communication problem in Korea. Other notable butheries of the English language: Officetel (Office + Hotel), Saladent (Student earning a salary as a side job).
Ummm…Kbonics? I realize I’m not helping the situation with that.
Whilst sunning myself at Natrang beach I was asked by two college girls to attend their “English circle”. I readily agreed, and that evening visited one of their homes. Sitting in a yard I spoke with a dozen young Vietnamese on the issues of the day, of which America’s normalizing relations with their country was but one of the topics. I marveled at how well they spoke. Without benefit of AFKN (TV or radio), hakwons, native speakers, wet nurses, or anything else Koreans took for granted they taught themselves English. A few of them admitted they had shortwave radios and listened to the VOA and the BBC. This was 1991.
Those Paul Theroux fans out there may recall his conversation with a stone-age headhunter in the Happy Isles of Oceania. The Caveman happened to be an Olympian during the ’88 Games. “They can’t speak English,” was his recollection of Korea.
Lord knows they’ve thrown plenty of money at it, and the Koreans certainly are capable of significant accomplishments and beating the odds. What’s going on with such a sub-par performance? And why is it tolerated?
It’s like, I want a pizza from Pizza Hut in Korea or Pappa Johns, and they bring me a Family size pizza when I haven’t ever ordered such a pizza from them before(and they bring me thin crust when I’ve always ordered thick). How the hell does this STUPID CRAP happen?
It’s not learning English that is the question, it’s only specific type or let’s say “Business English.” After years of learning English, is it REALLY too much to expect a Korean to speak a little English, to ask…DUUUH WHAT SIZE???
I agree that Koreans should be able to speak a basic level of passable English, for all the hype and effort they seem to put into hagwons and such, especially those who work in the tourism sector.
HOWEVER, I am assuming you are not a tourist but a migrant worker on an E-2 visa. In that case, you are not unlike a Mexican in the US demanding of gringos why they can’t speak Spanish.
Go Aretha, yeah baby. Happy happy joy joy. Hey WJK, what do you think of Rick Warren? Please don’t delete this. Not today.
HOWEVER, I am assuming you are not a tourist but a migrant worker on an E-2 visa. In that case, you are not unlike a Mexican in the US demanding of gringos why they can’t speak Spanish.
And we all know what the standard response is of foreigners and immigrants who cannot speak English, in America. Go back to your fucking country.
But you expats have the chutzpah to demand everyday Koreans to know the foreign language that YOU happen to be comfortable with, in their own damn country!
When such is the defining attitude of waegooks, Korean xenophobia is understandable.
SomeguyinKorea,
Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about if you think Mandarin and Korean share the same order.
I would suggest qualifying every one of your statements with “As far as I know” or better yet, “My guess is that”. This is what I myself strive to do nowadays.
This thread is too funny:
a) “Innostel” Funny, till you realize that Korea already has a Novatel and an Ibis (I + business) hotel…and they’re French! Apologies to the former Swissotel and Motel 6 if there ever was one; the game of mangling the word “hotel” didn’t begin in Korea. In fact, it isn’t even an English word to begin with, it’s French too.
b) “five years ago when the level of English was much lower than today”
Are you serious? Have you seen this year’s freshman? With apologies (again) to Robert Downey, Jr., how do you get to Less Than Zero?
c) “Japanese is easier and cheaper for Koreans to learn than English. Probably for Mandarin too.”
Yeah, because you really see young Koreans in Seoul having conversations in Chinese. I didn’t know good acid was available in Itaewon.
d) “Korean, Japanese and Chinese share the same word order”
Korean and Japanese do. Korean and Chinese? Nope. Wrong again. Keep looking things up.
e) “As long as English is viewed as a means to obfuscate rather than elucidate, there will be a dearth of bona fide attempts to properly learn English as a means of communication.”
Incept. That’s interesting + concept.
f) “HOWEVER, I am assuming you are not a tourist but a migrant worker on an E-2 visa.”
You can’t bash E-2′s anymore. Every foreign worker in Korea will need criminal record checks and blood tests soon. Soon, you’ll have to admit that you just don’t like non-Koreans.
Oops, freshmen not man. And incept is actually a word in English already? It’s the inception of a new incept!
#22,
I see you’re jumping to conclusions again.
“Simply put, just because Korean, Japanese and Chinese share the same word order and/or some lexical items doesn’t mean that Korean learners of Japanese or Chinese will be able to learn these languages than a native speaker of any other language.”
Happy?
NetizenKim: “And we all know what the standard response is of foreigners and immigrants who cannot speak English, in America. Go back to your fucking country.”
Korean: hoi sashil.
America has always been a place in which immigrants live together in ethnic communities and retain their native languages. Rather than being told to go home, foreign language speakers are accomodated in numerous ways – in many states they are able to take their driving tests in their own language, etc.
Besides, if a foreigner cannot speak English, how would (s)he presumably know that he is being told to go back to his/her fucking country?
NetizenKim: “But you expats have the chutzpah to demand everyday Koreans to know the foreign language that YOU happen to be comfortable with, in their own damn country! When such is the defining attitude of waegooks, Korean xenophobia is understandable.”
Strawman argument because there is no evidence that a single expat is demanding this.
In addition, using this red herring as a premise to justify xenophobia is just incoherent.
I know it’s a lot to ask, but if you’d like to construct a valid argument, you must try to stay on topic.
deleted (very off-topic)
“d) “Korean, Japanese and Chinese share the same word order”
Korean and Japanese do. Korean and Chinese? Nope. Wrong again. Keep looking things up.”
It was fucking 2 am when I typed that. See number 25.
“That pretty much sums up the English language communication problem in Korea.”
Depends. What you’re talking about are loan words, which are all perfectly acceptable when used in Korean. Now, whether they are acceptable when used in English or not depends on the context in which they are used.
Think about it for a second. Most of your friends back home probably don’t know what is a ‘noraebang’ or a ‘room salon’, and yet such words are part of your lexicon…you may even have used them yourself when speaking or writing in English.
#27,
I wouldn’t assume as much if I were you. According to the little flags next to my name and yours, we’re both French.
…or at least, in France.
SomeguyinKorea: “…there is no clear correlation between the similarities (or differences) that exist a first and second language and fluency acquired in the target language. Simply put, just because Korean, Japanese and Chinese share the same word order and some lexical items doesn’t mean that Korean learners of Japanese or Chinese will be able to learn these languages (faster/more easily) than a native speaker of any other language.”
Actually, I found it extremely easy to pick up basic Japanese sufficient to (gasp) actually communicate in Japan.
1st, aside from a few phonetic differences such as the z sound in Japanese, which Koreans often use a j for) it is intuitively easy for us Korean speakers to pronounce Japanese words.
2nd, Koreans have the advantage of having already learned Japanese characters in school and can read and sound out Japanese words.
3rd, the cultural touchpoints are often similar if not identical. Some things are just not translatable on an East-West cultural level.
However, if the horse won’t drink, it doesn’t really matter how good the water is…
#11. “I know of no other nation on earth that displays such resistance to learning a language that they acknowledge to be essential.”
That is the best line I’ve read on this or any other Korean blog in quite some time.
“As far as I know, Canadians have been getting on my ass every time I post. My guess is that Canadians don’t like Americans much. Unless maybe they are Canadian American.”
They all are, as they share the same continent. FYI, Yanks and Canuks get along just fine.
if you’re a tourist and call a hotel speaking in english, and the receiver hangs up on you, then something is wrong with that person and hotel policy.
but if you are not a tourist and call a pizza place and get the wrong order because they didn’t understand your english, then you should learn to speak the first language of that country.
#27,
You’d guess wrong, at least from this U.S.er-living-in-Canada North American’s perspective. The usual rivalries exist, plus some extras, but we’re more alike than either of us would like to admit, IMHO.
I don’t recall getting on your ass, but that’s due to your tongue-in-cheek humour on display in your comment, methinks. Just give me anther chance, please.
This topic is about facilitating tourism for foreigners that do not speak Korean, not if anyone can speak Korean or English well.
If there were a centralized phone system that could handle several different languages, then that could be invaluable in that it would help make Korea’s tourism industry more profitable.
I can only note that if one wants to go to the Sky Terminal at Coex, one can use the subway but the path to the terminal, from the subway, is so convoluted, complex, so poorly defined, that one can only conclude that “someone” did not want people to use the subway to get there. Additionally, when one walks into this place, the stiff shirt adjoshi in front speaks only Korean and to get any other language, one must find an open spot at one of the airlines (if they are open or available) to get any questions answered.
This is a massive failure on the part of the system to anticipate and deal with the needs of foreigners and others who might need to get to Inchon international airport — at least it has “international” in the name.
Last night, at the TBS-eFM (the radio that keeps reminding you that is funking great to celebrate the New Year in Korea because you do it twice) was this guy Samuel Koo, which apparently is the head of Tourism in Korea.
It was amazing to hear such a huge amount of BS. And the same things as usual:
“Yes, we are a great city (Seoul), everybody wants to come here”
“We receive as many visitors as Tokyo. It’s true, I was also surprised to confirm that…”
“People are talking English everywhere now, it’s easy to communicate in Seoul”
“We have a lot of attractions, like dance, plays, etc.”
“A lot of international restaurants, and they are very good”
“A lot of korean restaurants (uhr…) but we need to work on the communication”
“We have Drama on TV, it’s great”
And I could go on and on with the list. Besides that, he sounded like a sttuborn adjoshi, with his English accent, long pauses, talking like…well, you can picture it. Imagine your old teacher talking to you as a kid, like “yeah, you’re such a naive boy, you don’t know anything…”
I just have now a very clear idea of how tourism will be in the next years. Same bad way as it has been (given the guy who runs it)…
“Unless maybe they are Canadian American.”
“They all are, as they share the same continent.”
Absolutely correct. You see, all Canadians are americans…now, not all americans are Canadians…so simple, but people are still confused…tsc…
For you English teachers out there,
When did the teaching-English-to-Korean-kids regime begin?
I think you will have to evaluate those kids to see if it took hold. Otherwise, you’re going to wind up with the same results as they’ve had in Japan – good reading and writing skills (comparatively) but little-to-no speaking skills. I don’t think Japan has ever had, however, a program similar to what Korea now has – the teaching of English from a very young (7-8 year old?) age.
My two pfennigs’ worth
“Yes, we are a great city (Seoul), everybody wants to come here”
Highly debatable, and nothing to back the claim up. I like Seoul, but I don’t think people the world over are lining up to visit. If they were, Korea would likely have a tourism surplus instead of a deficit.
“We receive as many visitors as Tokyo. It’s true, I was also surprised to confirm that…”
Therefore, to follow Mr. Koo’s logic, Seoul must be just as good as Tokyo. It also isn’t revealed to us what percentage of “tourists” to either city are coming on business (or teaching illegally), or how much revenue each city is supposedly taking in from tourists.
“People are talking English everywhere now, it’s easy to communicate in Seoul”
To a certain extent, he’s right. A lot of Koreans are willing to try and some are pretty good speakers. However, if whenever I really want to wind up with the correct train, movie ticket, Starbucks coffee or McDonalds set – which, I must admit, is most of the time – I always speak in Korean.
“We have a lot of attractions, like dance, plays, etc.”
Yes, though a Korean language play might be of minimal interest to a non-Korean speaker. (I’m also unsure as to why one would travel thousands of miles to see Korean b-boys perform, but maybe that’s just me?) The traditional stuff – dance, music, etc – can be pretty interesting, so English event info is reasonably easy to come by.
“A lot of international restaurants, and they are very good”
Compared to where? Daegu? Seriously, for a supposedly international hub metropolis, neither the selection nor quality of international restaurants is exactly mind-blowing. However, the situation has improved greatly in the last dozen years and continues to get better. A work in progress.
“A lot of korean restaurants (uhr…) but we need to work on the communication”
An enormous understatement, though I reckon only a small percentage of Korean restaurants – largely centred in a few neighborhoods – get tourist traffic. Some try to provide English menus – albeit of varying intelligibility – despite the fact they may get very few foreign customers. Many make an effort.
“We have Drama on TV, it’s great”
Yikes! Again, not of great appeal to non-Korean speakers. Also, in my opinion at least, far from “great” entertainment. Finally, who the hell visits a country to watch TV?!
He must have forgotten the part that Korea has four seasons and that everyone is so kind here.
Japan is now piloting its new elementary English curriculum and textbook, which will be implemented nationwide in a couple of years. The goal is for students to master about 400 basic vocabulary words and a few sentence structures. I used to teach at an international school in China, where most newly enrolled Japanese elementary school students knew no English beyond “hello” and some mangled English-Japanese loanwords.
Getting Korean-speaking foreigners to call the innhostels regularly to check up on them their English ability would probably be a good idea, as they’d both be able to gauge the English ability and the Korean response. Even just saying telling the innhostels in question that that’s going to be happening would put the fear in them, so paranoia would do the job.
In terms of ordering pizza and such, yeah, this is Korea. Speak Korean. It’s not hard to order a damn pizza in Korean, I was doing it my second month here.
And Mizar, people have always complained about new words, particularly words mangled from other languages, and words haphazardly stuck together. This is a natural process for languages, and while opposition to new, often vulgar words is just as natural, it’s essentially a futile effort. In case of a variant form of English, it’s even more typical. Would you try to have Singaporeans refrain from using Chinese sentence patterns when framing English sentences? Wouldn’t have much luck ne?
#22 – Five years ago I lived in Jeonju, Jeollabuk and back then half the local ‘English’ teachers couldn’t respond with a coherent answer to “How are you today?”.
English, at in the provinces – I’ve lived in Jeolla my whole time in Korea, has improved leaps and bounds in the last five years. It’s far, far, far from good or even passable but it’s came from pretty darn low depths not that low ago.
There’s many problems with English education in Korea which has been discussed ad nauseum but one key factor is attitude. The students who actually learn 95% of them have a good or decent attitude towards English and/or non-Koreans. The other 85%+ have a poor attitude towards learning English and/or non-Koreans in general, and it shows in their English ability.
By far, the most significant reason why Koreans don’t do well with English is the fact that, by and large, it is not being taught as a communication tool. I can’t stress that enough.
Any professional job Koreans apply for, and many non-professional ones as well, require submission of English grammar test scores. This is true regardless of whether the duties of the job in question require any sort of English language proficiency.
In sum, then, English grammar is actually used as a sort of (rather arbitrary) measuring stick in a society where graduation from university is the norm rather than the exception. So, to be competitive you have to have good scores, not good English skills.
I’ve met plenty of students (and some teachers) who can ace grammar tests, but can’t reply when I ask them what they did today. English is treated as a system, like math, not as a tool for communication.
The whole purpose and focus of the system is therefore wrong. There is usually no drive to actually be able to communicate with a foreigner. That’s not what English study in Korea is about. Communication is not important, jobs are important.
This sort of error in purpose exists throughout the Korean education system, not just with English. My guess (I haven’t looked up the stats, but I remember hearing about this) is that if you follow first-year Korean university students, 90% or more of those who enroll will graduate four years later–excluding those with financial problems. I bet that this figure is no more than 25% at the university I attended in Canada. Why is that?
Education here, like many other things, is all about appearance. Get that diploma, get that test score, wear a suit, and put on a smile. It’s not about substance or quality, it is what’s on the outside that counts. That might be a tad cynical, and it is not universally true, but it definitely is the general trend.
If the Korean government enacted legislation tomorrow that banned employers from asking for English test scores, unless the job actually requires English–and I actually do think this should, and will eventually, be done–I would then predict that 90% of private English schools would go under in less than two years.
Think I’m right?
Mandarin easier to learn than English for Koreans? That’s madness! Whenever I’ve visited a foreign nation, I usually try not using English as much as I can to learn enough of the language to haggle, order food and ask for directions (perhaps a meager feat for some of you), but more importantly, to try to speak without an accent.
Japanese? Wasn’t too hard, plus a lot of Westerns who can speak some Japanese to practice with. Korean from there was like a sidestep, except since it had an alphabet, being literate from the get go made things a helluva more interesting.
Then off to Taiwan for some Mandarin fun. .. .. ..
Yeah right, and I thought learning to roll the r’s in Spanish was annoying. The tongue contortions, the speed that you spit it out at…
Having thought out how one would spell out Chinese words with Hangul, sounds more off than Konglish.
Well, if the Koreans here can tell me with a straight face Mandarin is easier, then I’ll take your word for it. Actually, no I won’t.
After reading about half the comments on this thread..I’ve come to conclude what a load bollocks it is.
Is this Marmot’s hole or some complaint forum?
If I owned an Innoestel or whatever, and 95% of my business was Korean speaking…I wouldn’t need an English speaker. Korea is not major tourist draw card…those who learn English get higher paid professional jobs not hospitality jobs.
My folks when visiting never had a problem. They stayed in real hotels where people do speak English.
If you wanna go local…then speak local!
#14…mate, you are ordering pizza in Korean and expect to do that in English…Jesus christ! Learn some of the language if you sticking around. Ordering pizza is quite simple.
It’s much more fustrating doing it in say Australia or the US when the person can’t speak English.
Then I would suggest, if I were a government official, that you should lose the government certification as a “tourist hotel” and further, you should have to give back the government money given to you to be such a tourist hotel, start paying full taxes, and lose all the subsidies given to you.
If you agree to that, then go ahead and speak all the Korean you want. Being trained to accommodate tourists means speaking their language. If you don’t wish to accommodate them, then you shouldn’t reap the rewards of such a program.
#45 – Good points, Pohang. I agree with them.
“Being trained to accommodate tourists means speaking their language. If you don’t wish to accommodate them, then you shouldn’t reap the rewards of such a program.”
Korea wants to be the hub of the world, right? Then how can you justify the demand for visitors to learn to speak a useless arcane minor language limited to 50 million speakers?
Korea wants to be the hub of the world, right? Then how can you justify the demand for visitors to learn to speak a useless arcane minor language limited to 50 million speakers?
No one disagrees, including the Koreans in officialdom who are in charge of promoting tourism to Korea. There’s no argument about that.
However, there is a difference between booking a reservation at the Seoul Chosun-Westin hotel and this so-called “innostel”, which to me sounds like a glorified yogwhan. The professionals who work at the former should be expected to know English, and rightly so. But most of the time, if you’re dealing with low-paid, bored working stiffs of the service industry who really don’t give a shit, you cannot reasonably expect English fluency from these people, hub or no hub. This is common sense. And if you’re a non-tourist resident alien who’s ordering pizza from some local shop, and there’s a communication breakdown, YOU’RE the asshole not them.
Conversely, if Koreans in are conducting a business in America, they should know how to speak English. There’s no fucking excuse.
A nice reversal of position by Netizen Kim. It took more guts to revise your opinion than it would have to maintain your original argument.
There was no reversal of my opinion, it has been consistent throughout.
Pardon me. I didn’t realize you were simply being ironic when you wrote:
“And we all know what the standard response is of foreigners and immigrants who cannot speak English, in America. Go back to your fucking country. But you expats have the chutzpah to demand everyday Koreans to know the foreign language that YOU happen to be comfortable with, in their own damn country!When such is the defining attitude of waegooks, Korean xenophobia is understandable.”
The joke’s on me for disproving a statement that you really didn’t mean.
Mizar, I’m simply revealing an implicit double standard here.
We have some waegooks here, who depend on Korea in some way to make a living, with a ridiculous sense of entitlement, who are too lazy to learn Korean, who think Koreans should bend over backwards for them and be able to speak English to them, IN KOREA. That is the very definition of chutzpah. This is like a Mexican worker in America who thinks everyone should know how to speak to him in Spanish. Sure, it’s nice if the host culture is able to accommodate one’s native tongue but that is a courtesy extended at the discretion of the host culture. However, the onus is upon the newcomer to take the trouble to learn the dominant language of the host culture, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
I don’t see why this is difficult to capiche.
It’s not about my failure to capiche but your failure to construct a proper argument. You are guilty of framing the debate, using unproven premises. Some of the fallacies employed here are “hasty generalization,” “poisoning the well,” and circular argument.
Bottom line is you have not proven your bald assertion that most long-term expats do not learn basic Korean. Second, you set up numerous strawman arguments unfairly sterotyping them as a group with phrases like “sense of entitlement”, “too lazy to learn”, “think Koreans should bend over backwards for them” etc. You have not proven that these either.
Bottom line is you have not proven your bald assertion that most long-term expats do not learn basic Korean. Second, you set up numerous strawman arguments unfairly sterotyping them as a group with phrases like “sense of entitlement”, “too lazy to learn”, “think Koreans should bend over backwards for them” etc. You have not proven that these either.
Fair enough.
But I do not claim ALL expats are like that. I will readily acknowledge there are some quality expats and former expats like Robert and the resident polyglot Sonagi who don’t fit that bill at all.
But they are exceptions. You’re right, Spock. I don’t have proof for my assertions but I’ve spent enough time here at the Hole to know what characters I’m dealing with.
Frankly, I don’t really care whether expats want to learn Korean or not. Believe me, I don’t give a shit. It is the attitude that pisses me off.
“You’re right, Spock. I don’t have proof for my assertions but I’ve spent enough time here at the Hole to know what characters I’m dealing with.”
You called me Spock. I appreciate that. You’re really not a bad sort after all.
NK, in addition to Mizar’s criticisms of your emotion-based argument (i.e. you, for your own reasons, like to hate on the foreigners living in your father’s country), you are missing the point completely. DarthB summed it up pretty well in 48, but I’ll repeat it for you: these innostels get tax breaks and other kickbacks for catering to foreigners. But they aren’t catering to foreigners, they are hanging up on them. You’ve for some reason hijacked this idea into foreigners demanding that the country be operated in English for their own convenience. I haven’t seen any posts here about that, nor are the posters here at the Hole a good sampling of expats living in Korea to begin with… …I have a lot more to say about this, but I’ve wasted enough time. I’ll just wrap it up by saying, I haven’t seen anyone reason so emotionally and illogically since the last time I argued with my mother.
Why do you hate on expats so much?
Innostels are government-certified hotels that are supposed to cater to TOURISTS (which is why they get certain tax breaks and subsidies and regular hotels don’t).
Are you saying that in order to cater to TOURISTS (as the government has certified and trained them to do), they do not need to speak English (and by extention Japanese or Chinese). Tourists must now study Korean to tour here?
Or are you saying that tourists are not allowed to stay in cheaper accommodation if they don’t know the language, and must be gouged by the big chain hotels because that’s the only place they can get English (or Japanese/Chinese) service?
Why do you hate on expats so much?
Hate is a strong word. I do not hate on expats although I do find some of you quite annoying sometimes. There are also others that I find lovably smackable, like wjk. I play a very specific role here, the devil’s advocate or sometimes even the devil’s advocate of the devil’s advocate. I come in the interest of lively and spirited debate, not hate.
Are you saying that in order to cater to TOURISTS (as the government has certified and trained them to do), they do not need to speak English (and by extention Japanese or Chinese). Tourists must now study Korean to tour here?
Do any of you realize the full, gory nature of this beast we call the English language? “English” is not a single entity, but has multiple manifestations. To properly “know English” in the context of some poor, low paid SOB working in the tourism industry, you have to know several different languages, but they are all called “English”.
Heaven help the poor SOB if a British tourist calls the innostel to make a reservation. I grew up in America speaking American and I can’t even fucking understand what a Brit is talking about 60% of the time. Australian is not hell of a lot better. They pronounce the word “eight” like “aight”. Then you got the damn Canuckistani’s with their funny way of pronouncing things also. Even within the US, you got all kinds of fucked up regional dialects. I once talked on the phone with a chick who grew up in the Deep South and I had no idea what in tarnation she was talking about. We haven’t even touched upon non-Anglo’s who speak ESL. What if you have an Indian reserving a room in Korea? If you ever dealt with outsourced customer support from Bangalore you know exactly what I’m talking about. It doesn’t stop. It’s a total mindfuck.
Shit, if I was that poor SOB working in the innostel, I’d hang up on all you mofo’s also. As Obama would put it, that’s above my paygrade.
The Korean tourism board is a clueless entity with no grip on reality. That’s another rant.
# 51 NetizenKim
You need to get something straight, I didn’t call anyone an asshole. And I’m the customer, Papa Johns wants to sell Pizza, “the customer is always right” or certainly in the incident I’m referring. If they don’t want to try to sell Pizza to English speakers that is their prerogative, but they do and they try. Their attempt was not good on the one occasion, I’m just using it as an example of the Organization that receives GOV $$$ to provide services in English. If they choose to hang up and be lazy, then I suppose Papa Johns can as well.
BTW, the employees at Papa Johns were taught/know/should have learned English in school. Yes, they should be able to ask whether I want a large or family size pizza. Also, I’ll bet you some weak Korean Won that they are also trained to do so!
I was never taught Korean in school and am not required to use/know Korean as an English Teacher.
# 21 NetizenKim
“And we all know what the standard response is of foreigners and immigrants who cannot speak English, in America. Go back to your fucking country.”
You couldn’t be more wrong. Your idea of the American “standard response” to foreigners is NOT “Go back to your fucking country” as long as they are in America legally as I am in S. Korea. Unfortunately, that is certainly the Korean “standard response” to legal foreigners.
This is a topic about tourism, not English. Anyway…
I’m an expat myself (not US). Have a lot of complaints regarding koreans not willing to have us here, but these are old news. The old generation will never accept us. The young will. In the next 10 years, expats will be more welcome. Need to wait.
The hotels: if they are receiving incentives and are promoted as “foreigners friendly”, they should comply with it. Speak English, even if it’s very simple English. If the English speaking person on the other side is not helping and not making easy for the korean guy to understand (e.g., speaking slowly or choosing simple words), the person is the a-hole, not the korean.
If you are ordering food, you need to speak the language. If they speak English at Papa John’s, it’s a plus on their side. Honestly, they won’t loose money if foreigners are not able to order. You know, there are tons of koreans asking food. Again, it’s not their fault.
Again, I have a lot of complaints about here, but can never complain about their language skills. We are in their country. They DON’T need to speak English just to make us feel good. They need to speak English for work in an international company, or to work WITH foreigners.
These complaints about them not speaking English I feel are coming from people that can only speak English, and never tried to learn another language. Move your a$$ and learn it.
Usually, I only see US’ers complaining about this. Germans, Swedish, Italians, even French(!) don’t say much about it, because we all know what it is to learn another language.
I’m not a Korea sponsor. But on the language side, they are not doing anything wrong if they can’t talk to you on the streets. In the hotel promoted as “international/tourist”, ok, they need to do it, shame on them. Calling the pizza, forget it. Go to BK, PH or McD. It’s YOUR problem. Simple.
And to NetizenKim: very nice the “I come in the interest of lively and spirited debate, not hate”. That’s the spirit.
Although I’m still a wjk fan…so funny…
So, NK, according to you English is SO HARD to learn that catering to tourists is near impossible.
So, are you saying that even though one is taking the government’s money to be promoted as a tourist hotel, it’s perfectly fine to just hang up the phone every time an English speaker calls?
I call that defrauding the government.
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