In the American Spectator, Mark Tooley of the Institute on Religion and Democracy looks at Bishop Kim Hong-do of the 120,000-member Kumnan Church, the largest Methodist congregation in the world. To say that he “issues” with communism would be something of an understatement:
At one prayer rally of recent years, Bishop Kim and other clergy prayed for the “salvation” of North Korea. In his sermon, Kim somberly warned that a peace treaty with North Korea and withdrawal of U.S. troops would lead to a communist take-over, ultimately destroying 50,000 South Korean churches and slaughtering 13 million Christians, citing the examples of Maoist China and Cambodia under Pol Pot. He also said that a communized Korea would become a “beggar country” where “hard work gives no reward.” The bishop concluded, “When communists mention peace, they mean ‘communized unity.’”
He apparently has issues with “hedonism, lechery and drugs,” too:
Unsurprisingly for such a flamboyant character, Kim has had his apparent moral failures and controversies. In 2006 he was fined and given a three-year suspended sentence for misappropriation of church funds. The bishop insists the allegations were false, and the case seems not to have impaired his ministry. After the 2004 tsunami in Asia that killed tens of thousands, Kim credited the disaster to a divine judgment on “hedonism, lechery, [and] drugs.” He opined that more observance of the Sabbath might avert such calamities. Yet he added, “We mustn’t think that it was good that they were struck by a disaster. We must take pity on them and help them.”
Read the rest on your own.
(HT to reader)
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Perhaps he has in the back of his mind the Chinese cultural revolution, and the genocide of the Tibetan people.
(in reference to:
The bishop concluded, “When communists mention peace, they mean ‘communized unity.’”
).
Or perhaps we are to imagine that such events, and Pol Pot’s massacres, never took place? Or couldn’t possibly happen again in today’s “enlightened” world?
I disagree – I think he’s referring to his own people’s history, but his rice bowl is threatened, too.
this church has branches in the Los Angeles area, like many other Korea-based churches having ‘branches’ in the Los Angeles area. I have heard of the name, but never went to one.
Let’s just say that there’s a fairly high chance that the liberal gyops on this board actually attended or do attend these MegaKorean church branches in the US, or their families or relatives did or do.
It’s curious to see how hedonistic, socialist, and human centered these gyops are in regards to US policy, however.
I have long observed these men to be sort of like Korean versions of Jerry Falwell and Bob Jones University.(my beliefs don’t really jive with theirs. Liberty University would be suffocating and a waste of money)
I think they do have their problems, but they are not nearly as hypocritical and blatantly opportunistic like say, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton.
What I disapprove lately is ‘English Ministry’ sections of these Korean churchs all bolting out the door of the Korean church, governed by Korean speakers, in claims that they are reaching other races, and that it’s God’s will. Korean church is supposed to be a place where generations of Koreans form an identity. If you go to to a real, US American church, you will notice people in the 20s to 35s are blatantly missing in action.
Old ladies are singing hymns and old men are playing guitar, drum, and bass in service. This is an absolute disgrace, of course. I speak from observation.
there is no coherence to this comment.
Um, is anything he said about Communism false or exaggerated?
You should always include that as a disclaimer.
“there is no coherence to this comment.”
Indeed, there isn’t.
Religious people (of all flavours) are usually a bit weird. I distrust them all, and it is one of the very few things that Karl Marx got right. Religion is the opium of the masses.
#8…Amen Brother.
Keith, if it helps some people to make believe that they have an imaginary omnipotent friend, they that constitutional right as long as they don’t harm others. However, the historical record shows a clear pattern of havoc, violence and turmoil. Yes, it is wise to distrust them.
# 10,
I feel comfortable with people who have IQ’s over 130 being atheists. They at least, by theory, have intelligence to govern their behavior. However, the vast majority of people in this world don’t have IQ’s over 130. Most people in this world don’t have IQ’s over 100.
Having an “imaginary omnipotent friend” helps keep the masses reasonabily well-behaved. The world has given atheistic governments two chances: Communism and Nazism, with (needless to say) disasterous results.
I trust apathetic agnosticism far more than I trust aggressive, haughty and hostile atheists.
wjk,
Overall I agree with your assessment of the immigrant Korean church. The younger population is moving to more mainstream churches or not going to church at all.
I attribute this to old ajussi jip san nims who have an overinflated opinion of themselves not giving any power to their younger, more Americanized children. That’s the problem. The ajussis still think of us 2nd generation 20 and 30 somethings as their “children.” It’s very frustrating for Americanized ministers to operate in a immigrant Korean church. They often go unnoticed, unheeded and underfunded. Hence they splinter off to start their own ministry.
In LA you have big churches with big congregations in the main service, the childrens service all the way up to high school. Then you see the big drop off in college and English Ministry services. Bethel in Irvine? English Ministry is like 30 people. Huge Torrance Presbyterian? English Ministry service is in the teens, literally.
One American pastor, who shares his church with a Korean one said that Koreans weren’t any better Christians than anyone else. They were a lot like Americans in the 50′s, where children of the WWII and the Depression didn’t take anything for granted and had stronger values and church attendence was really high. He believed that like Americans of the 50′s, Korean church attendence today will eventually taper off.
Many times, while I’m at church, I say to myself…man, the rapture must have already happened. What’s more…I’m still here.
i see the same things, wangkon, netizen Kim.
I am convinced it is not the will of God for them to go their own ways.
Most people become Deacons if they stay long enough. That is reality. It is a way to trap them, or enlist them as permanent members. Female Deacons abound.
There is nothing wrong with a Korean ‘family’ church.
These days, K-church EM’s are making deacons out of unmarried people in their 20′s. Gee, that’s not what Paul said to do, but whatever.
more than 80% of church funds go to pay rent, bills maintain the lives of clergy and family.
Branching off results in paying rent, when you don’t have to pay rent. A giant, dishonest waste.
I don’t have a problem with 99% of the funds going to clergy, maintenance, and congregation feeding, subsidizing books, trips, meeting costs, etc.
Bible demands 10% of everyone except clergy to meet these costs. I have seen churches where nobody tithed. This church collapsed within 3 years. Of course it would.
I have a problem with excessive branching, which is a time honored problem among Protestants to begin with.
what are they doing with churches they can’t fill to capacity, especially not being able to see people in 20s to 35′s?
In the 40′s, they come back with their children. With their tire-sized bellys and balding heads.
came a long way from Martin Luther’s Lutheran churches.
Interesting article about some Korean missionaries making asses of themselves in the Philippines:
http://asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1626&Itemid=194
The older generation church ministers and elders steer the church as if it were a Chaebol corporation. Aggressive expansion always seems to be the agenda. Every pastorman wants a bigger congregation. Of course, a bigger congregation means a bigger building. A bigger building means you need to impose “special offerings” besides the regular tithe. It’s a quantity over quality type of thinking. It stresses people out and many leave because of that. Sometimes, it’s scary watching business decisions being made by people whose basic mantra is “God will provide”.
“The older generation church ministers and elders steer the church as if it were a Chaebol corporation.”
Hilarious… and true.
I was a first time visitor to a church once. The main pastor saw me and immediately decided that that I was to teach Sunday school. I told him flat out do you want a Sunday school teacher or do you want a baby-sitter? The man was speechless and he avoided me ever since.
Duuude…
I went out with a chick who was a conscripted Sunday school teacher. Boy was she a wild one…
You need to watch out for some of the church women. Especially the overly-churchy ones, past 30. They try to fill that “God-shaped void” in their lives by overloading on church-related work and activities, thinking somehow that in the midst of all this scatter-brained chaos, they’ll be blessed. It’s ironic because a boyfriend would actually bring some relief to the throbbing emptiness but their schedule is jam-packed with prayer meetings, retreats, missions, small group sessions and a multitude of other bullshit crap, which is actually all a one big desperate cry of loneliness that they hardly have a chance to date anyone. They secretly want a boyfriend badly but they are so repressed (the church environment and the typical Korean family upbringing doesn’t help) they don’t know how to express it. Because their social life revolves solely around church its hard to meet new guys. Dating a nice, lame, boring guy that she already knows within the church circle is unthinkable.
Hear hear NK.
Back in my early 20′s I was one of those “…nice, lame, boring guys… within the church…”
I was always scratching my head when all the supposed “churchy” girls would bring a shaved headed gang banger to Sunday service but never batted an eye towards me.
Later on, after I graduated from undergrad, and became a little older and a little “badder” going out with “church” girls and rounding the bases was like shooting fish in a barrel. Conventional wisdom would say to date the nice boring guy at church. I learned that in most cases, these chicks don’t have conventional wisdom.
btw… the conscripted Sunday school teacher was 22.
sound like the Korean church, indeed, NK, WK.
NK, WK,
at least the Korean churches have young girls doing the ‘baby sitting’.
in the American churches, there are no young girls to do that. 40 year mommies with heart disease do that.
this will become the Korean church’s situation, with the continuous claim of these EM Pastors claiming God told them they should build their own church.
to a certain extent, it already has partially.
wjk,
The EM pastors have no choice. The ajossis that run these churches don’t listen to them… they operate on shoe string budgets. The attitude of these ajossi elders and deacons is “… you take care of our ‘kids’ who can’t sit in on the main service because they can’t speak Korean well enough and we’ll take care of the ‘real’ church business.”
With what they have to work with, it’s only logical that they leave to start their own ministry.
The KM-EM model simply does not work. There’s always friction between the young people and the older folks because of the generation divide. There’s a lot of divisive political bullshit. I’ve seen too many enthusiatic and eager EM pastors fresh out of seminary become burnt-out, discouraged, and tired. The EM pastor eventually quits and the EM ministry either becomes independent or becomes dissolved through attrition. This same pattern repeats itself constantly in many different churches.
Even within independent EM churches I see a new source of division, between single people and married couples. I know of two EM independent churches in my area where all the married couples are concentrated in one church and most of the singles are flocked to the other. It sucks being part of a singles minority within a mostly married congregation because there’s a tendency for the married crowd to view the singles as a free baby-sitting service. It really boggles my mind how these married people cant ever seem to figure out a system to take care of the little kids without imposing upon singles.
One of my other pet peeves about church is that weird and awkward moment between praise and main prayer when the moderator says “Lets all get up and greet one another…” Gosh, I hate that. As if we don’t have enough blatant phoniness within the church already.
Don’t even get me started on this thing called “body worship”.
Oh yeah, one more thing…if you’re ever unfortunate to be part of the lay staff. be prepared for long, inane, boring meetings about stupid shit like who’s going to bring the coffee and donuts next week. I feel like yelling out: Fuck the coffee and donuts!
NK #26-29,
Yet in spite of all that, the spirit of volunteerism runs strongly and deeply in you, right?
I think part of what you’re saying about church – it seems that you like going to church, but you’re not happy with some of the other things. I’m not suggesting you adopt my approach (stop going to church) but what about the choice of another church? It sounds like you’re unhappy in your present one.
And your suggestion in #29. My fellow human being, as referred to in Para (1) in my post here, if you want to be a contributing part of a non-profit organization which you are a member of, you will realize that coffee and donuts are the lubricant of the organizational machine, which can lurch to great heights powered simply on these two fucked consumables.
I’ve already stopped going to church. I still firmly believe in God. Loving other Christians is a most profoundly difficult
It’s funny you should mention volunteerism. I was thinking the other day that I’d rather go help out in a homeless shelter on a Sunday rather than go to a church. Christ came for the marginalized, the disenfranchised, not for the smug and complacent. Perhaps such places are where the true church is found.
#11. Unfortunately odds are that a world without religion would end up like the Atheist utopia of “Rapture” in the game “Bioshock”. Or a Man god would eventually replace the concept of God in an atheist Utopia. By the way have anyone heard of the DPRK?
Even if all forms of religion were attempted to be wiped out of a society, within a few generations it would eventually come back three fold. Finding a middle ground is what is important. An atheist extremist is just as dangerous as a religious extremist. And their have been many atheist rulers throughout history who have caused just as much if not more damage to human life than religious.
Power corrupts. Greed is a virtue. The two most important obstacles to overcome for humanity to properly advance as a viable entity.
NK, you sound like a recovering Korean Christianholic…
“You need to watch out for some of the church women. Especially the overly-churchy ones, past 30.”
NK, you know what? A lot of those missionaries that were held hostage in Afghanistan were women 30 or over…
Hummm…
Someone like Joseph Stalin may have been an atheist but that doesn’t mean his policies were the result of ‘atheism’ as if atheism were some set of clearly defined mantra relating to life and how one is to value it. There is no such thing as ‘atheism’ in such a sense.
I may think Christianity is schlock for simpletons (just like I believe Islam and Hinduism and Mormonism are schlock for simpletons) but this view of Christianity, which I may share with many, including folks like Stalin, or Mao, or whomever, doesn’t neccesitate that I have the same ethical views as others. Whereas when we talk about one’s religious beliefs or about one being “atheist” we are often implying some thing about the sum of his socio political ethical relations to the world–ie who one is in relation to life and the universe and not merely who one is relation to a proposition (“Jesus is lord”) or to a particular group (eg, those who believe that Jesus is lord).
That all said, the case by which it’s sensible to talk of “atheist extremists” are when we are referring to the actions of those antireligious people who are explicitly motivated by the drive to negate a religious group in the context of culture war. Atheists may naturally have a stake in this culture war, but their victims and enemies are particularly defined. In other words, if ‘atheism’ is dangerous, it is dangerous only to religion, which is all good as far as I’m concerned. I have no problems with the elimination or demotion of religious groups in society. Then again, this is no different from the Christians who would rather see the elimination or demotion of other religions in the world, and vice versa.
A group of Korean hotties are doing body worship, writhing and twisting hips, and caressing themselves on stage by legato rhythm. It’s a personal fave part of revivals and other special services, and I’m pretty sure all the “I have sinned!” dudes in the pews struggle with the same naughty thoughts as I during.
But that’s a part of Church community and the dynamics of one’s faith. A kyopo’s piety to Christianity lies in direct proportion to the number of marriagable hotties at his/her Church. I believe this holds especially true of the psychology of the female kyopo’s faith more than it does the male’s.
Merry Mithras day!
#31,
There was a news bit on CBC that had this priest who had ‘left’ The Church but still remained a priest (I guess). He’s made a 25-year or so career of organizing food/shelter for the homeless, particular the homeless youth and runaways of Montreal. That’s serving the disenfranchised. I’d say that’s what he’s doing is God’s work and the work of a righteous man who serves the church but not The Church.
I’d say you’re spot on with your assessment. Not many people have the wherewithal to serve that population, but the ones who do are the blessed.
This time abcdefg has made an absoluteley coherent argument (I suppose I just caught him at his absolute most irrational in our last exchange).
He wrote:”Someone like Joseph Stalin may have been an atheist but that doesn’t mean his policies were the result of ‘atheism’ ”
Yes, category error. The atrocities committed in the name of religion far outnumber those committed in the name of atheism – can you name a single atrocity committed in the name of atheism?
To the contrary, the founding fathers of American govt. were largely atheists – Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, etc. The takeover of America by religious nuts is an aberation to a secular democracy. The pledge of allegence was even altered to accomodate them.
WongKon wrote: “I trust apathetic agnosticism far more than I trust aggressive, haughty and hostile atheists.”
While I usually respect WonKon’s wisdom, this comment is an example of reverse logic. It is the religious folk, not the agnostics and atheists who have historically been aggressive, haughty and hostile. Atheists (ie. logical thinkers) have encountered discrimination and persecution throughout human history, are still largely silent our of fear of reprisal.
Point made. How about practicing some of that tolerance Jesus taught instead of using religion as a wedge to create hell on earth for a change? If only religious folks would really practice what they preach…
freedom of religion existed in western Europe and North America. An experiment with the Welfare state, supplanted religion in the west. There is arguably the best respect for human rights in these places. I would say it is rooted in their ‘religion’.
China is the largest secular govt that is important at this point. Human rights? Arguably probably the worst.
Human rights in Eastern Europe, Soviet Union? Shitty.
Human rights in India? Shitty.
Human rights in Australia? Pretty good.
Human rights in Japan? Well, pre-1945, I would say shitty. Cred the Americans.
Human rights in Hong Kong? Pretty good. Cred the English.
Mizar5, abcdefg, the few gyops who are blatant Jesus haters. Keep it up, and it clearly warns you’re going to hell. You’ve got nothing to complain about when the time comes. You made a voluntary, ‘rational’ decision. You can only thank your smart ass self for having made such a brilliant ‘choice.’
That’s what the Bible says, too.
People will make this ‘choice.’.
And, Mizar5, stop pretending to be Korean.
Your story is all over the place. You must be in your 50s, if you actually claim what you claim. Who’s recruiting a 50 year old to work in Korea? They retire their own at 40s.
you can equally mock Native American religion, Hindu, Buddhism, Korean spirit worship, etc, but I have never seen such, especially mocking of Korean spirit worship.
On Korean spirit worship, it’s ‘ah, how interesting this, ah, how beautiful that’, etc.
total hypocrisy.
Mizar and abcdefg aren’t simple atheists.
They are anti-Christian.
Who says Merry-M-something day on Christmas?
Ass holes.
Only ass-holes.
By the way, the power of Korean sanshins are somehow limited to the peninsula, yah?
Koreans spend a good boat load of money appeasing, inquiring, these spirits. Ask the local jumjaengee and the gut, and bujuk, dude how well he’s doing with cash, with economic good or bad times.
Nobody calls them crooks.
Only Moksa’s are crooks.
Japan isn’t a total secular country, either.
They spend more on appeasing their own native Kamis.
It’s called Shinto collectively.
i have never even heard of someone actively discrediting Shinto religion, saying it is rooted in something else, or supplanted something else, and therefore is bullshit,
or Happy-non-Emperor day or some shit like that.
From the Christian’s view, you’re just tango-ing with the devil. That’s why you don’t bother with the rest. Devil doesn’t care as long as you aren’t Christian.
Comment on #11, there are 3 basic teachings that governs behavior: Religious Morals (faith), Secular Ethics (reason), and Legalism (fear of punishment).
Religious morals would be good vs. evil, and Secular ethics right vs. wrong. Secular ethics would also include Confucian teachings, and fables/parables that teach values. Legalism and fear of punishment is self explanatory. But not everyone will listen to reason or respond to deterrent, so you have to teach 3 different ways.
If a society abandon faith and reason, to become dependent on fear of punishment alone, that’s not much different than treating people like dogs.
If by “irrational” you are referring to my comments in that “Jillekkot” thread in which I plainly reveal how ignorant you are in matters of literary criticism and logic, then, sure, I was irrational indeed.
As a matter of fact, I stopped responding in that thread as soon as I realized how out of league you are… and, of course, as soon as it became undeniable that I was arguing with a confused and pretentious douchebag.
It’s always easy, by the way, to detect a douchebag by this trait: his frequent and tawdry habit of giving life advice and self-referentially talking about proper rationality in his posts. You, Mizar5, contrary to your self-appointments, are no arbiter of good taste and reason and should definitely stop pretending to be one.
No, hell is the place where the wjks of the world and the brainwashed, Jesus-freak kyopos will be going once this world ends and the Lord’s judgement befalls you. God told me he loves those like me who struggle for knowledge, and has reserved a special place for the irrational loons who have denied his special grace and worship false, dogmatic gods like Jesus “the Christ,” etc..
But, sarcasm aside, hell is just another fictional part of your insular worldview, wjk, which you blindly believe in purely because you are a dupe. Why be so willing to believe in such man-made lies?
If it’s ever praised by folk like me, and I don’t ever praise it, it is done so in the spirit of anthropology. One can find plenty of the same type of interest in Christianity. Now, the reason why I don’t aggressively impugn and criticize “Korean spirit worship” is because it’s a marginal nuissance only. I’m pretty sure Shamanism is hella stupid, but it’s not an immiment threat. See? There’s not even partial hypocricy. There’s just a seperate season for different things, and I have the right to pick my battles.
He’s definitely Korean. I’ve never questioned it and now have more reason not to. He is like other Samsung associates who have posted here; kind of like Uncle Mins (who’s now banned), Mizar5 takes himself way too seriously, yet has a fragile ego, and acts like an ahjusshi loon whenever anyone crosses him. Not to mention, Mizar5′s crude and rigid sense of logic and rationality to which he frequently appeals. It sounds bad but he’d have to be a born and raised Korean national to think so highly of basic education. To his credit — he’s not a typical American kyopo Jesus freak.
hey, at least I am describing the way to hell, as described in a real book.
You are describing the way to hell literally out of your ass. Writing your very own religious text. One that no one recognizes.
What? God told you Jesus-freaks like wjk will go to hell because they are stupid?
Is Jesus=God stupid?
Give me a break.
Korean spirit worship is not an imminent threat, huh? Korean spirit masters were involved in on more than one occasion to meddle/aid with Chosun king successions. Korean Buddhists have extensively meddled with Shilla and especially Goryo courts affairs, one reason why Lee Sunggye denounced Buddhism as the state religion of Chosun.
Korean shamanism is a huge industry in Korea. Goonghap, jum, gosa, jaesa, boojuk, gut, etc. All dose chulhak dosas operate only on cash. Cash alone. I never heard of them taking credit cards, or providing jum for free or for charity.
It’s a huge industry for Japan’s parallel industry, Shinto, as well. But much more elaborate. An entire town may devote a calendar date to celebrate the local Kamis. I would say this cost may rival church building.
Not one ounce of hypocrisy?
Be real.
Be honest.
You’re missing the crux of the argument. Your “real book” was once a Jew thinking literally out of his ass. Only here for some unavoidably silly reason we now have a legion of emotionally shallow Koreans nowadays believing in said Jew and his literature. Tell me why, wjk.
And let’s not forget the “real books” that say Christianity is false and that Jesus isn’t the divine son of God (eg the Quran) and that are basically works of literature written by individuals who were speaking out of their asses too and of course pretending to have an authority bequeathed or revealed to them from a higher, mystical, ghostly source.
Anyway, if my literature doesn’t gibe with you, consider the odds. If we grant the notion of a Creator God and a Hell, odds are the real and true God is one who is not Christian. It’s in the numbers. There have been more major religions in the world since the beginning of time that are not Christian. Chances are, therefore, that the creator is not Christian. This creator, and I firmly believe — because a holy ghost once told me so– may even be sending Christians to hell — if only because Christians dare to believe that a just and righteous God would send people to hell at all simply for kissing up to the wrong God. The wager is yours to play, and lose.
Finally, again, I have the right to select my battles. I have stated that Shamanism is hella stupid. But it’s not immiment in that it’s not within the span of pressing cultural issues that I as a Westerner personally deal with. I don’t praise one stupid religion and bash another stupid religion. I simply defer bashing one for the sake of focusing on bashing the shit out of the other. That’s just resource logistics. Obviously no hypocricy at all. You think there’s hypocricy but that is because you’re an idiot making an empty point who needs the obvious spelled out for you.
odds? Odds favor the real God is Christian. First off, Abraham’s God covers a thick portion of the earth, in terms of coverage.
How did Christianity survive, when it was persecuted by everyone when it started? This alone is overcoming of the odds.
Muslim Quran mentions Jesus and says he existed, he is a prophet, NOT a God, not a Messiah.
Jews acknowledge he existed, but he is NOT God, not a Messiah.
Did someone payoff these historically you-kill-me-I-kill-you factions(to be honest, most of the killing was done by Christians and Muslims) to somehow sit down and agree that Jesus was at least a REAL person?
Highly, highly, highly, highly unlikely.
this favors Jesus existed on earth.
there is even an anti-Jesus crowd who tries to say Jesus fucked around with Mary Magdalene to try to smear Jesus. At the very least they are acknowledging Jesus existed on earth. Dan Brown, Jesus had a flesh relationship with Mary Mag peeps, they are committing blasphemy. Hell, barring repentance. Jesus was fully human, fully God. But no apparent burning desire to rub his gochu up and down every now and then. He survived a month plus (40days)in the desert mountains being tempted by Satan. He can’t resist touching his gochu? Eat shit, DaVinci.
yeah, we real Christians believe Jesus was a 30 something year old virgin, who died. Yeah, didn’t live as long as some 40 year old virgin in the movies, but it is possible to not fuck a woman and live up to 30 years old. It’s biologically possible, it’s socially feasible. Majority of Korean men, in Korea, in fact had their first de-virginizing experience in goon dae. That’s anywhere from 18 to mid 20′s. Or even 30. Jesus couldn’t outlast them? Dude, we think he walked on water, and don’t buy it when someone says it was ICE.
Korean shaman shins are curiously stuck to the Korean peninsula.
Japanese shins are curiously stuck to the Japanese isles.
How did Abraham’s God make it all over the world, whether He did with Jews, Muslims, or Christians? That is odd-defying.
Who is Isaac? A boy born to a lady who was 90 years old, that’s who he is. Is that possible? That’s either a lie or a miracle. All 3 factions believe the Jews went from Palestine to Egypt, and out of Egypt to Palestine. “Exodus” took 40 years. You can walk out of there, swim out of there faster. THAT is also odds defying.
And to add further, it wasn’t ONE Jewish person talking out of his ass. You are but ONE person, blatantly making stuff up.
You assume the people before you lied.
You here, Sir, are just plain out lying.
Aren’t you ashamed of your self?
You tangoed away from Korean religious orders historically meddling in Korean politics in the past.
You have a right to pick your battles. Just don’t flat out lie. At least I am basing my words on books written before my time, that everyone can cross check, if they wanted to.
You’re unprofessional.
You probably never heard of the Ten Commandments, or read the New Testament. God is not petty, like Sonagi says.
You made the choice. YOU !
It’s what you wanted.
YOU !
You made a choice, and according to your ‘intellect’, you are rejecting the Jesus fantasy.
But, curiously, you are not just rejecting, you are calling it a hoax, being outright irreverent about Jesus, etc.
And you pat yourself on the head for being so ‘smart’.
We’re not Muslims. We’re not here to hurt ourselves or you for saying shit.
We’re just telling you where you’re going after you die, because you made a fully conscious decision. You still have many years to change your mind.
The old white guys of the Old World were a little different. They demanded people convert at knife, gun point.
Conquering of Americas, 30 years War, World War I, II.
I am not aware of any East Asian Christians doing murder, rape, etc in the process of Christian evangelism. East Asian Christians have virtually no blame for what people call Christian religion crimes.
The only thing the Koreans did was probably hurt the local’s feelings and act like douche bags.
to credit the white guys of the Old World, at least they felt a lot of remorse about it, and they are the world leaders in Human Rights on the face of the earth.
Religious freedom was a concept initially to tolerate Catholics and Protestants, without slitting throats.
Lord, if he existed, would surely know how much I have enjoyed reading your latest and greatest nonsequitur rambles for a posting spree.
I didn’t mean “odds” in terms of coverage or difficulty. Islam, a religion that explicity denies the divinity of Jesus, is growing in number. Surely, however, this is not to be taken as sign of its validity. Christianity may have prospered out of the margins of the Roman Empire, and perhaps this is a social curiosity, but this too shouldn’t be taken as a sign or miracle proving the veracity of Christianity in any way whatsoever. I did not mean “odds” in your sense.
And whoever said that you’re fixated on sex was most certainly correct. But it’s clear now. You’re a 30 yo virgin like Jesus, and you have a small 5.5 inch pecker, and, hence, that is why for you Jebus is the Christ! Ah, no wonder you find so much solace and guidance in Christianity. Misery loves company.
Yeah, it wasn’t just one Jew blatantly making things up and talking out his ass. There were quite a few Jews talking out their asses. But that just makes it worse. Indeed, some of these Jews talking out their asses were even, pseudoepigraphically, claiming to be other Jews, as in the case of the epistles and even, arguably, the gospels which most likely weren’t written by their namesakes. That’s a whole lot of ass talking. But it’s understandable. Back in those days when folks believed in myth and magic, it was quite normal to be an ass talker (it gave one some political clout). It just seems odd , however, that people would continue to be their dupes to this day.
Oh, finally, kuemon saek dol meori, you brainwashed freak believer of man -made lies, who here is lying? I was being ironic.
And I am just telling you that you know nothing about where I’m going after I die or even whether the concept of “going” anywhere after one dies is valid. You in fact are just an emotionally shallow Korean who’s built a foundation of faith upon ignorance and false justifications — things that I could refute one by one and in total in less than an hour. You’re pathetic, in truth, as pathetic as every North Korean who thinks Kim Jong Il is a living god.
Anyway, I will let you get the last word in if you wish, wjk. The stage is all yours — go for 6 consecutive posts this time. I hate myself for “arguing” with you at even 2 post’s length. It feels like I have been arguing with a child.
well, 5.5 with a straight ruler. Using a tape measure, I discovered it to be slightly over 6. What to do with a tape measure? Wrap it around? Why not. I think it wraps around to a 6. I cannot explain the bow formation, but I think it’s a genetic advantage of sorts.
I’ve seen lots and lots of dicks. It’s not a huge dick, but it’s a good dick.
At least I’ve read the Christian Bible at least 10 times to say what I am saying.
You? You haven’t even read it for crying out loud.
Let me ask you, you can have the final word. Can a lawyer argue law with a layman who has no knowledge of the law?
This is the situation.
I’m a Christian who has actually read the book, they tell us to read.
I have taken a college class in Rabbinic Judaism.
I have read snipets of the Qu’ran, English translation, however incorrect that may be. Only in stuff I was interested in.
I have prayed, had handful of God-dreams, heard no voices, saw no visions.
This is an educated decision and a belief. It is not entirely sitting there and believing whatever comes out of the pulpit.
FYI, I have read the Bible. I’ve read most of the NT, minus Revelations, quite a few times and at least the first few books from the OT, plus Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and some others. I’ve probably read these books with more insight and penetration than you’ll ever. But, still, that doesn’t add to my fund of knowledge at all, and in most cases we can’t really use the Bible to support the Bible. That would be circular, kind of like lifting yourself from the heal of your own elbows. It doesn’t work and it’s not even relevant.
Being an insider to the details of a bullshit books just makes you knowledgable in bullshit. And we’re not arguing hermeneutics and what Jesus may have meant in Mathew or Luke or John or Luke. We’re not arguing interpretations of what is written in the Bible or that it was written, but more the notion that the Bible was written by mere men.. What would the details matter? What do we gain by recoursing to an isolated study of what these mere men have written?
Anyway, I have read enough to know that the authors of the books of the Bible were certainly mere men and that any claim to the contrary, ie that such literature couldn’t have been written by mere men, turns out to be pure fabrication and misinformation, kind of like the way Muslims go around all the time and dare claim that a dull and repetitive book such as the Qu’ran is literarily and word for word perfect and couldn’t have been written by any man. It’s nonsense.
I’ve read the Bible, studied its theology and all that and remain utterly unimpressed. But, don’t get me wrong, I can see all the ways that an emotionally shallow kyopo may be impressed. I know your psychology in and out. I see its buttons pushed and its levers depressed, see things that perhaps you never will, and can judge the source of everything that is manipulating you. And it’s like looking at people with thumbs up their asses. It’s really quite an interesting phenomema.
I’ll ramble a little more. Ever come across a Muslim full of conviction and fiath and love for his religion? Yeah, you as a Christian must think he’s ridiculous. But that’s exactly how you appear to me. There is nothing “educated’ about your “decisions”, wjk. You’re worldview is full of gaping holes and lacks the benefit of more advanced ideas. Besides, you’re like so many other Christians I’ve met and dealth with both online and off: You guys are regurgitators. You’re pretty much saying the same thing, repeating the same fallacies. It’s a shame.
Hey, I guess I’ll talke that last word and pass it back to you.
On the subject of whether or not Mizar5 is a Korean ajossi or not. I studied textual criticism in a previous life… ironically Biblical textual criticism.
For example, the Gospel of John was probably written by heavily Hellenistic person of Jewish background, but probably not someone born in Palestine (he gets some geography wrong, but the Jewish traditions right). The Greek of I Peter is WAY too different from II Peter to have it been written by the same author, etc., etc.
In reference to Mizar5… after casually analyzing the body of comments he’s written, he’s someone who has spent a lot of time in Korea and around Koreans, but… I don’t think he was born in Korea. There are a lot of things about Korean traditions and mindset that are basic to Koreans born into a Korean household that he gets wrong. I think he was born in the late 50′s or mid-60′s. In the U.S.A. Is is possible he’s adopted? Yes, it is. So you can’t rule out that he’s ethically Korean. However, he was almost certainly not raised in Korea or in a Korean household. Mentally, he’s got North American hard wiring.
WonKon: “On the subject of whether or not Mizar5 is a Korean ajossi or not. I studied textual criticism in a previous life… ironically Biblical textual criticism.”
As someone who actually majored in literature as an undergrad at St. John’s I found it amusing that abcdefg would choose a minor and essentially irrelevant point on which to pin an argument that actually consisted entirely of mean spirited personal attacks against me.
WongKon, on the other hand, is pretty spot on about me. I have often stated that my thinking as more Western than Asian.
However, let me point out that he’s mistaken on the point of “hard wiring.” It’s entirely self-directed change.
One of the basic tenents of Buddhism is that people are not reducible to their environments, but are capable of great personal transformation. As a lifetime Buddhist (a fundamentally atheistic faith, btw), I know how to examine my thought processes and question my own fundamental premises, and then make life-altering adjustments. Anyone can do this.
You need not be “hard wired” to reject fan death, and numerous toxic elements of contemporary Korean society. Nor does one need to be “hard wired” to perceive the irony of a Christian faulting a non-believer for expressing his opinion. Considering the centuries of persecution and suppression that non believers have had to suffer at the hands of believers, doesn’t this argument add insult to injury?
One need not be “hard-wired” to be a critic of social foibles across cultures. One needs only to be mindful, flexible and open to new questions. One only needs to understand that “I have been wrong many times and expect to be many more times over.” There’s no shame in being wrong, and it need not be a blow to one’s ego, either, – another important lesson for abcdefg, who was overeager to reject an argument on personal grounds without even attempting to address the merits of the argument itself.
However, abcdefg’s obsession with me might serve him well after all. It could open his mind to new perspectives. I know better than to stereotype someone based on his mistakes alone.
“Your story is all over the place. You must be in your 50s, if you actually claim what you claim. Who’s recruiting a 50 year old to work in Korea? They retire their own at 40s.”
“Benchmarking” is a common practice at Samsung (at Samsung it means studying how overseas companies do business). Yes, Samsung routinely hires people in their 50s and 60s for consultancy purposes.
Incidentally, they do not retire people in their 40s. People in their 40s at Samsung, if they are on track, are promoted from Kwajang to Chajang.
abcdefg: “You think there’s hypocricy but that is because you’re an idiot making an empty point who needs the obvious spelled out for you.”
abcdefg, while I agree with your essential arguments about Christianity, you lose credibility by hinging your arguments on your personal judgments of your opponent. This is what I mean when I write that you fail to offer coherent arguments.
The facile dismissal of religion as simple superstition misses a great deal. Religion, which, is based in human psychology, can be fascinating for its historical, philosophical and psychological depth.
For instance, some of the most fascinating logical and philosophical discussions have occurred within Indian Buddhism. Yet there are some pretty irrational and mindless elements at work as well.
One can focus on all the “crap” or one can delve into the common demominators of human endeavor that religion often showcases.
As the Dalai Lama has pointed out, Christianity teaches the same basic virtues as Buddhism, but understandably reflects a different set of cultural values. So one can respect a Christian like Thomas Aquinas for the quality of his thought without subscribing to his theological beliefs. And one can argue against Christian theological interpretations without resorting to childish, reactionary antics like name-calling.
Like the knowledge that 탁 is a Korea surname?
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