The Korea Herald does a review of the historical drama “Ssanghwajeom,” which tells the tale of a love triangle between the homosexual Goryeo king, his apparently bisexual chief bodyguard, and the king’s Mongolian queen, who gets it from the bodyguard.
Although the movie sets itself out as a historical drama set in the late Goryeo Dynasty, viewers should bear in mind that the story is purely fictional. The nation is now under the virtual rule of China’s Yuan Dynasty, and Goryeo’s king (Joo Jin-mo) has to produce a son to keep his position. The only problem is that he cannot sleep with a woman, much less have a romantic relationship with one.
The king’s real romantic partner is none other than his chief bodyguard Hong Lim (Zo In-sung). The two have sex in the inner sanctums of the Goryeo court, and we are shown a graphic kiss scene between the king and Hong Lim, which is bound to shock some Korean viewers.
But the real shocker comes when the king decides to ask Hong Lim to sleep with his wife – the queen (Song Ji-hyo). This idea is based on his assumption that all his political problems will go away once there is a royal son.
The king’s miscalculation, of course, is that passionate romantic feelings sometimes form after sex. Hong Lim, who has never slept with a woman before, hesitates to touch the body of the queen at first, but once the physical bond is initiated, he finds himself totally enslaved.
Love triangle established, the plot sprints ahead with a portrayal of the uncontrollable anger and jealousy of the king, leaving heads rolling in the process.
Yes, the story is purely fictional… except it’s not. While the king is apparently not named (note: I didn’t see the preview), he’s clearly modeled on King Gongmin, the late Goryeo king who, following the death of his Mongolian-born queen Princess Nuguk, descended into a life of homosexual debauchery (not that there’s anything wrong was that) and was eventually offed by a group of his boy toys, supposedly before he could kill them to keep secret that one of them — his favorite — had fathered the royal heir.
While Korean audiences may or may not be shocked by the depictions of homosexual sex, director Yoo Ha could have really upped the cringe factor by telling the tale of what the title of the film is really about — interracial sex!
“Ssanghwajeom,” or “Dumpling Store,” was a bawdy song from the time of King Chungnyeol of Goryeo, and starts off with the story of a Korean woman goes to bakery for some dumplings and gets rodgered by some old Turkish git (or more accurately, some Uighur git in all probability):
I went to the dumpling shop to buy myself some dumplings
Then a Muslim codger caught me by the wrist!
If word is spread beyond this shop,
I’ll say you’re telling lies, you little actor’s mask!
I too will go to lay me in that place
There was ne’er a place so scruffy as where I slept.
(translated by Marshall R. Pihl)
Good luck seeing THAT on the big screen in Korea anytime soon.
Anyway, in the next three stanzas, the female narrator gets it at a Buddhist temple, the village well and a tavern. The song — which for obvious reasons was banned at the beginning of the Joseon era — is evidence of both the relatively sexual mores of Goryeo society and said society’s relative cosmopolitan character, especially in terms of its connections with the Islamic world. And surely, there’s an Pasolini-esque film waiting to happen here.
{ 77 comments… read them below or add one }
Surely there’s something to learn here if you’re married to a Mongolian?
Rodgered by some old Turkish git? Let’s hear it for keeping it within the Ural-Altaisic group!
There are quite a few examples of nobility engaged in homosexuality (not that there is anything wrong with that), and was apparently somewhat common, or at least known, amongst the general population. Prof. Rutt I believe did an article in the 60s or 70s on the subject and one of the early students at Paechae was expelled for doing the wild thing with one of the male servants in a closet (so appropriate).
Between all the K-pop boy bands and sordid tales from the royal court, all the Lucys in this country who say there is no homosexuality sure have a lot of essplainin’ to do.
Is it just me or is the claim that Koreans believe there are no gays in Korea, are always spouted by expats in Korea who continue to spread this misinformation and stereotype?
Say what you will about lack of rights for gays in Korea. But there isn’t nearly as much insecurity regarding homosexuality nor the amount of homophobia by Koreans, as there are by Western guys.
“Sarcasm”. It’s in the dictionary. Look it up.
No CM, it is just you. Well i thought that too. But I am constantly reminded by my wife when I tell her i wouldn’t wear a lavender shirt with a hot pink tie and pastel yellow sweater vest because it would look gay, she tells me that “Korea does not have a concept of gay”.
I think this is the important thing, apart from the different way of speaking that seems almost universal to gay culture there is non differentiation in Korea between what gay people can do and what heterosexuals can do. Obviously this is part to do with hiding the homosexuals and part to do with them not having a separate cutlure.
In some ways this is a good thing, because things that are generally off the menu for hetero guys can be done freely here without being labelled a fag. On the otherhand some of the stuff guys get upto offends my western sensibilities. Yes have your hair styled, no do not wear thick black eyeliner and lipstick, that makes you boy george or at best Robert Smith.
The other aspect is that there is no visible gay culture yet, the gay clubs are not obvious, but a homosexual acquaintance of mine told me there is, he also said his co-workers know of his lifestyle, but not his or his students.
So in summary, it is not as simple as a complete closet like denial of homosexuality among Korean men, but there is some truth to the “Korea has no CONCEPT of gay” and it comes more from the society and what from we expats get told by our Korean associates and what we see.
choongmooro is Korea’s Hollywood. They peek their heads in now and then to promote ‘liberalism’.
one of the things they promote is ‘you’re gay, that’s okay.’
gay films in Korea aren’t a revelation that there are many gays now in Korea, relative to the past. It’s a sign that the govt isn’t regulating the entertainers like they used to.
Chunghee on ‘legend statuts’ record has banged every female entertainer and sometimes the daughter, together, while he reigned. That’s the kind of regulation they stem from.
Korea doesn’t have an ingrained male feminism acceptance like say, Samoa, Thailand, etc.
You don’t really like Korea’s liberalism. They are anti-USA, anti-free trade, too forgiving of North Korea, but you seem to like their stance on gays.
this is no different in plot that Braveheart’s gay English King and the ‘master of military arts’, the guy Edward Longshanks threw out the window.
I don’t think you were calling the English gay back then.
No gay in Korea.
“Korea does not have a concept of gay”.
What she probably means is that Koreans aren’t hung up on wearing pink and thinking it’s gay. Who says pink is gay? Western males. Western males are repulsed by gayness. It’s almost an obsession, in every waking moment that they must prove they are not gay. Prove that masculinity by proving that you’re not gay. Koreans aren’t hung up on that kind of ‘masculinity’. That’s what probably your wife meant.
Just look around the Korean media, there have been tons of gay movies and shows – far more than in the west. There is almost a fascination for exploration of homosexuality. That’s not a sign that everybody believes there are no gays in Korea.
vast majority of Americans watching that scene in Braveheart,
laughed
when that guy hit the ground, from Edward Longshanks’s push.
they didn’t react like he threw a baby or a woman from the tower, that’s for certain.
I don’t take gays too seriously. A lot of them do fuck women as well. True, some are bisexual. But, some insist they are strictly ‘gay’. But, they seek out female prostitutes, from time to time. WTF?
In some ways, the discrimination and hatred toward homosexuals are much much worse in the West than in Korea – despite all the smugness that Westerners have believing in that they are more enlightened in homosexual rights.
I had a teacher at a very highly respected university in Korea (think SKY) that told me there were no gays in Korea until the American military came in the 50s. I fully believe that there is a general view that “our gays” – meaning Korean gays – are not the same as Western gays and that we Westerners have corrupted them.
I can agree with CM and Inkevitch on some points. A lot of things that Korean males do would be regarded as gay in the West; that we Westerners are obsessed with our homophobia and in many ways are not open to accepting gays as Koreans are, but I do think that Korea does try to hold itself up as moral pillar as opposed to the West. We see this all the time with the fixation on foreigners and their sexual activities and crimes while ignoring or hiding their own from foreigners’ view. I think the sites like this, as well as some of the others, that expose what is in the Korean media isn’t exactly appreciated by the general public. All of my Korean friends hate this site because they feel that we – foreigners – expose too much of Korea’s negative points to the world. Personally I think MH does an excellent job of balancing the good and the bad.
Apologies for the run-on posting
….Korea does try to hold itself up as moral pillar while espousing how wicked the West is……
Horrible headache today…..can’t think straight as evidenced by the earlier posts
Maybe someone could do a top-ten or occasional translation into Korean of some of the choice threads here.
On one hand, it could facilitate communication. On the other, if any nerves were hit, it could possibly even lift ad revenue here.
I haven’t looked, but I’m sure the people over at gesomoon already do, just as they translate and post (and comment on) hundreds of threads from over at Dave’s.
I checked– gesomoon does translate some threads from here. Only found one in which I posted to, though.
CM, I agree that Koreans are not as “hung up” as westerners regarding homosexuals, and also maybe aren’t as homophobic, but they are also far less honest about it. I guess the best way of describing the attitude to gay people is that it is taboo. People just don’t talk about it, and when pressed, deny it exists.
I once taught a Korean psychaitrist – a nice, sensible guy – who told me flat out that there were “almost no gays in Korea.” He went on to explain to me that since western countries provide a more accepting environment for gays, gay feelings in said countries are encouraged. He also said that homosexuality was caused by trauma at a young age.
I’ve broached the subject in other adult classes from time to time, just for kicks, and had a pretty similar response. Korea either has very few gay people or none at all.
Curiously, I was once hit on in a sauna – openly, in front of several other Korean fellas – in a very aggressive, extremely dismcomforting way, and no-one paid any attention, even though it was painfuly obvious what was going on.
BTW, I’ve read some interviews with ex-military north korean defectors who talking about guys getting it on with guys in the nork army. They said that nork soliders – one guy said about half, another said 40% or so – spanked the monkey with other guys during service. But one of them added – and here I was reminded of many South Korean attitudes, as Mr Neff has pointed out – that they did it for “comfort” and that they weren’t gay “like American gays”. Whatever.
My guess is that there are probably about the same amount of homosexuals in Korea as there are in the West.
By the way, only S is “a very highly respected university” in Korea.:)
CM, that is exactly what she meant. I appreciate you picking up my meaning with my limited explanation. But I also have to disagree with you on some points. Homosexuality in Korean movies is almost always only seen as oddities of extravagance of noblemen or characters with other cocommittant character flaws and they tend to be set in times that are distant. Where as in the west there are Gay themed TV shows and movies in the present with otherwise standard characters. But that is my point exactly homosexual behaviour has been normalised and accepted where as the existance of men who love eachother or who exclusively has intercourse with each other has not been.
Let me put it this way, I would prefer to be a homosexual in the west, I would prefer to be a heterosexual male who likes behaviours that have been marginalised and criticised (and to some point ostracised) as been homosexual.
I also agree with you about the “not wating to apperar gay”. As I point out frequently I am not homophobic, but being a lightly built, non threatening neat guy that cares about his appearance I strive to avoid feminization as much as possible.
In 1997, a Korean woman studying English in the Philippines told me there were no gays in Korea. She had been complaining about all the gays in the Philippines and how dirty they were. She even talked as if the Korean race was somehow immune to homosexuality.
I told her that there were homosexuals in every country, including Korea, and that some people were just born that way. I told her that I had seen Korean gays walking around Itaewon and that three gay guys had lived in the apartment above my wife and I.
The woman suddenly got very angry and called me a liar. That made me a little angry, so I told her something that her younger sister (29 years old) had confided in me just a few months earlier. Her younger sister had told me that she had had sex with a female friend and that she had liked it. On hearing that news, the elder sister went crazy and started yelling and screaming at the top of her lungs. The younger sister had warned me that her elder sister was somewhat emotionally unstable, but I had forgotten about it since I had never seen her go crazy before.
Afterwards, I felt bad about telling her sister’s secret, but the woman had just been so rude, arrogant, and obnoxious that I could not help myself.
The younger sister was upset with me, but not as upset as I thought she would be since she continued to reccommend my school in the Philippines to her friends.
When I first came to Korea in 1977, I was shocked to see Korean men walking around holding hands, their arms around each other’s shoulders, and men even slow dancing together. I was told that it was just a cultural difference, and that it did not mean the guys were homosexual. Well, I am sure that was generally true, but, at the same time, there seemed to be a lot of unnecessary touching going on.
Things have changed a lot in Korea. Today, middle school girls and boys are dating and even having sex, but in the 1970s and ’80s, boys and girls were pretty much separated with no place to meet, except in bakeries. Without access to the opposite sex and with so much touching allowed among the same sex in the 70′s and 80′s, how did Korean teenagers satisfy their sexual curiosity? And there was no Internet back then. One cannot help but wonder.
gbevers, that was in the 1970′s. Do Koreans today still tell you there are no gays in Korea?
Your friends can rest easy. Most readers are present and former expats or ethnic Koreans. This blog isn’t appearing on the homepage of ABC News.
cm: “In some ways, the discrimination and hatred toward homosexuals are much much worse in the West than in Korea – despite all the smugness that Westerners have believing in that they are more enlightened in homosexual rights.”
Incorrect. Homosexuality and androgyny became chic and mainstream in the West 40 years ago when popular entertainers like David Bowie, Mick Jagger, and Boy George brought homosexuality mainstream. Once again, Korea is far behind the times again.
It appears pretty typical for Koreans to stumble on a cultural trend decades behind the times only to claim that they are the world leaders in it.
You may recall the big promotion of clean, modernized toilets that began last year.
Better late than never, I suppose, but the attempt to trump the world, as usual, rings hollow.
“CM, I agree that Koreans are not as “hung up” as westerners regarding homosexuals, and also maybe aren’t as homophobic, but they are also far less honest about it. I guess the best way of describing the attitude to gay people is that it is taboo. People just don’t talk about it, and when pressed, deny it exists.”
In other words, Koreans are more “hung up” than Westerners regarding homosexuality, and more homophobic. Just how many mainstream gay couples can most Koreans name, anyway? In the West this is fairly easy.
What you are guilty of here is category error. The feminization of Korean males is much more widespread than in the West, but this is not homosexuality – it is emasculization.
CM (#21),
The story I told happened in 1997, not the 1970s. Since then, some Korean celebrities have come out of the closet, so lately I have not heard Koreans claiming there are no gays in Korea.
I suspect that Koreans were once taught there were no gays in Korea; otherwise, I cannot understand why so many of them used to deny it.
Robert (#11),
I don’t blame your Korean friends. Lately, for some reason, this site has gotten a little negative. I was going to mention something about that the other day, but didn’t. Anyway, Korea’s positives are covered pretty well in the Korean media, so I think this site gives some balance. Still, maybe it is time for a few more positive stories.
By the way, I think most people who have lived in Korea will agree that Korea’s positives far outweigh its negatives.
Sure. It’s also easier to find homosexuals who have been bashed, or men who are likely to bash “faggots” and find that this behavior is perfectly acceptable within certain social circles.
There are more open homosexuals in the west and more vitriol aimed at homosexuals.
Take the guy who hit on me in the neighborhood sauna. If a guy made the sort of advances he made on me at in a public shower back home, the chances of him getting out of the place with no more than a verbal lashing would be small. Here, the thing was shrugged off.
Maybe its because there’s a much higher premium placed on being “masculine” in the west than here. I don’t know about your high school upbringing, but the worst insult you could level at someone was calling them gay. Holding hands? In Australia, you’d be dead, here no problem.
Different strokes I guess…
“What she probably means is that Koreans aren’t hung up on wearing pink and thinking it’s gay. Who says pink is gay? Western males.”
The color pink is associated with femininity, innocence and little girls in particular. According to JeongMee Yoon, “In the United States, South Korea and elsewhere, most young girls love pink clothing, accessories and toys. This phenomenon is widespread among children of various ethnic groups regardless of their cultural backgrounds.”
http://www.jeongmeeyoon.com/aw_pinkblue.htm
Research on color preference in monkeys has shown females prefer warmer colors like pink and red — supposedly an infant primate’s pink face brings out its mother’s nurturing instincts. A color preference study of Caucasian and Chinese men and women showed both Caucasian and Chinese women strongly preferred red and pink, while Caucasian men strongly preferred blue and green. However, the Chinese men showed a broader range, with many picking red and pink — possibly because in China red is considered lucky.
According to some research, the effect of pink on men is that it makes them passive: http://www.colormatters.com/body_pink.html
Whatever the history of the association of pink with femininity, it is in fact firmly established, both in Korea and the West, and , a strong argument can be made that the trend to wear pink represents a general feminization of Korean men today, whether a conscious or not.
Wouldn’t have been when you were talking up the colonial period, styling the Samil movement a hoax, claiming takeshima for the japanese, regailing us with sordid tales of Korean tribalism, homophobia and racism since the 80s or fobbing off the comfort women would it?
touche
Still waiting for that good news…
“Sure. It’s also easier to find homosexuals who have been bashed, or men who are likely to bash “faggots” and find that this behavior is perfectly acceptable within certain social circles.”
Quite the contrary, this is considered a hate crime in Western societies, period. You are representing the exception as the rule, which is a hasty generalization error.
“Maybe its because there’s a much higher premium placed on being “masculine” in the west than here.”
Intra-male competitition is a biological fact, although it does manifest differently in different cultures. I can’t speak for European societies, but in the U.S., rugged masculinity was an important quality for survival of the individual, whereas in Asia and Europe, the individual is generally more dependent on the family and social networks for survival than in the West.
I would argue that the aggressive behaviors you are citing says less about tolerence toward homosexuality per se than it does with the American culture in general – which is generally more rugged, masculine and aggressive in many regards.
Considering that the Kinsey Reports (1949, 1953) helped Americans break through a period of Victorial denial that began to open people’s consciousness about human sexuality, it is only natural that the U.S. was at the forefront in gay rights.
Don’t get me wrong – I believe it is a good thing that Korea is beginning to follow suit now. But to represent Korea as more tolerent toward gays than America is simply a misstatement of the facts.
lololololololololololololol
“All of my Korean friends hate this site because they feel that we – foreigners – expose too much of Korea’s negative points to the world.”
In other words, they are generally want to whitewash the truth, while foreigners have no particular stake in perpetrating the deceit.
“All of my Korean friends hate this site because they feel that we – foreigners – expose too much of Korea’s negative points to the world.”
In other words, they generally want to whitewash the truth, while foreigners have no particular stake in perpetrating the deceit.
@25: Your series of comments critical of the man who lost his family when the plane crashed on his house were both unwarranted and negative. Not to mention mean-spirited and completely lacking in empathy.
For some reason.
gbevers,
Why do all your stories sound made up?
Mizar5,
You sure know a lot about gays in Korea and America (here’s the obligatory: ‘not that there’s anything wrong with that’), can you cite the study about color preference in monkeys? I find that fascinating.
#25,
And for another reason, since you asked, your total crapout parodying 찔레꽃. Yeah, that was a positive.
But today’s a new day.
Rob,
Wouldn’t that be the Mongol Yuan Dynasty in China rather than the Chinese Yuan Dynasty?
there were no gays in Africa, Middle East, India, China, Latin America, etc until the mid 90s. Not just Korea. She-males were better accepted in the humid and hot parts, such as Thailand, Phillipines, Samoa.
(there are still no gays in Africa, nor is there HIV or AIDS. Ask the ANC in South Africa. Operation condom storm is direly needed there. )
to the celeb’s credit, after celebs stated they were gay, suddenly the gay population surged in numbers.(also seen in Korea)
this is not possible, if we assume a purely biological mechanism.
so yeah, they are coming out in public. Meanwhile, against their wishes, against their souls, they have been fucking women as substitutes. They were married, having children, etc. My tears go out to guys like Jim McGreevey, that guy in Idaho, etc.
some portion of these people choose to be gay. Some fucker trapped in prison, for example.(this is just pure sin)
prison cock to cock and prison cock to butt hole is discussed a lot in American movies. Never mentioned in Korea. It’s mostly hyungnim this, hyungnim that.
one of the things that immigrants in the US are told to fear in US male prisons is, getting butt raped, gay-style.
if they fall in love, do they need civil unions and legalized marriages?
one Korean guy from Fullerton, CA who was involved in what was described in the movie, “Better Luck Tomorrow”, reportedly got AIDS in prison. His father was my family’s doctor. He was not the same guy after his son’s arrest and trip to the slammers.
i bet you the perpetrator wasn’t born gay.
Everyone here at the Marmot’s Hole just seems to love talking about homosexuality. As soon as a topic on homosexuality comes up, all the expats jump on it like kids on candy.
Case in point:
This thread has 36 comments (excluding mine).
The thread before and after both only have 2.
“And for another reason, since you asked, your total crapout parodying 찔레꽃. Yeah, that was a positive.”
You’re faulting bevers for negativity because he made a point in the form of a parody on what thread? Oh, you mean the thread that a contributor attempted to turn into a personal venue for character assassination simply because he disagreed with my analysis of the song and couldn’t see fit to argue on the merits of the issue itself?
Whether his opinions are popular or not, I believe you should credit Gerry for being one of the more even-tempered voices here.
“Wouldn’t have been when you were talking up the colonial period, styling the Samil movement a hoax, claiming takeshima for the japanese, regailing us with sordid tales of Korean tribalism, homophobia and racism since the 80s or fobbing off the comfort women would it?”
Oh, no you didn’t!
“talking up the colonial period”
You mean the period where the average Korean lifespan reached over 30 years of age for the first time? Or is that the period that saw Korea surrender without firing a shot?
“styling the Samil movement a hoax”
I wouldn’t call it a hoax, but I would call the signs in the Korean War Memorial describing Korea as being liberated 26 years later solely by the activities of Korean independence groups at home and abroad a hoax.
“claiming takeshima for the japanese”
Um, Korea has it. The Japanese aren’t going to invade Korea to get a rock in the middle of the sea. Calm down.
“sordid tales of Korean tribalism”
Koreans have problems with other cultures, these are often manifested in complaining about foreigners, scapegoating them in the media, outrageous statements about the superiority of Korean culture over all others and sometimes even physical attacks on foreigners purely for being in Korea. That is tribalism.
“homophobia”
I am not sure that Koreans really are all that homophobic, but they often show no respect for minority groups be they mentally handicapped, physically handicapped, or just not-being-Korean handicapped. So it wouldn’t really surprise me to learn that Koreans were homophobic. However, having lived in Itaewon for 5 years I must say that a lot of Korean men are most certainly gay. As are many of the women. And I don’t think they got the idea from listening to David Bowie.
“racism”
I think I’ve covered this. South Korea is a racist country. It’s changing. I won’t be there to see it.
“fobbing off the comfort women”
The way everyone in South Korea fobbed them off until the 1990′s when it became possible and politically expedient to demonize Japan again? Or the way women in South Korea continue to be fobbed off into the enormous, international Korean prostitution business even to this day? Or the way South Koreans fob off women in South-East Asia when they go there on “golf trips”? I once said that the only thing funnier than a Korean arguing for food safety was a Korean arguing in support of environmentalism. I was wrong, it’s actually a Korean arguing against prostitution.
#37,
No problem with that – I have noted, several times as a matter of fact, of my agreement with a number of Gerry’s opinions, which he did state eloquently and even-temperedly. And I understand about the subjectivity of what’s beautiful and what’s not. However, if you’re going to put it out in public, you should expect the slings and arrows. The fact that (and I noted this too) that Gerry’s learned prose adorns these pages is in extreme contradistinction to what he posted that day that, how shall I say, caused some of us to rise up in objection.
Sure I might have found it funny when I was 17, but how many of us are 17-year-olds here?
I cannot speak for the poster to whom (I think) you refer, but my point is that Gerry noted that there’s been an increased amount of negativity here-well, he is responsible to some degree.
You’re going to tell me, with a straight face, that Gerry’s posting of his parody was just as culturally worthy as the subject he was parodying? That’s right, all points of view are equally valid and society-nurturing….I guess I’ve been in my adopted country too long.
I think there is a difference in the stereotypical images of homosexuality between the two societies. The attention to style and fashion, obsession with musicals, etc. that may earn a snicker from a crowd (… in Arizona) are not really upheld in a Korean society.
I think it would be a bit silly to claim that Korea is not homophobic or a better place to live for homosexuals than United States. Perhaps it is better than SOME places in United States (I wouldn’t want to be one of the homosexual couples in Arkansas right now)… but overall, United States is surprisingly tolerant when it comes to homosexuality (considering the level of presence Christianity has in society and government).
I think the confusion comes from the fact that the Korean society has not publicly accepted the existence of homosexuals within their ranks (meaning virtually every homosexual Koreans have stayed in the closet) as at least the norm, which would lead to a very weakened state of homosexual Koreans’ identity and culture.
So, you wouldn’t see too many activists or people calling for legalization of same-sex marriages, which would rile up the anti-homosexual factions in a society and make anti-homosexuality more visible.
… Well, that’s my theory, anyway.
::woof! woof!::
What is that boy?
::woof! woof!::
There is a blog that answers questions about Korea?
::woof! woof!::
And the gay denial question was answered long time ago?
::woof! woof!::
I agree. People just don’t know where to look.
Hoju_Saram (#28) wrote:
I have never said the March 1st Movement was a hoax. I have written about the differences between the numbers reported by the Japanese police and Korea’s nationalistic historians and have asked for details of the claimed atrocities. Why would you have a problem with that?
Korea occupies Takeshima (Dokdo) now, but it was historically Japanese territory. Korea’s historical claims a simply bogus. The evidence supporting Japan’s claims and disproving Korea’s claims is overwhelming.
What have I written about homophobia in Korea? As for racism, I do not remember what I have written, but are you denying that there was and is racism in Korea?
There were Korean comfort women, but were they innocent women pulled off the streets and dragged off by Japanese soldiers or were they women from poor families who saw an opportunity to put food on the table by answering “Comfort Women” ads in Korean newspapers? Some women may have been deceived by both Korean and Japanese pimps, but that happens all over the world even today. The Allies had their prostitutes and the Japanese had theirs, but the difference was that the Japanese did not have as many hangups about prostitution as Americans and others did. The Japanese accepted it and tried to manage it while the Americans and other allies would just wink and send their people off post to get it.
Negative stories do not mean the stories are untrue. The point I was trying to make in my post above was that the Marmot Hole traditionally has a good balance of negative and positive stories, but lately I have noticed the stories have tended to be more on the negative side.
I write about things that I am motivated to write about. One thing that motivates me are stories that I believe to be untrue or exaggerated, and I usually give my reasons for believing so. If something good happens to me in Korea, that may also motivate me to write. For example, I had a good experience at a Korean doctor’s office a few weeks ago, which I wrote about. If someone criticizes Korea unfairly, I may respond to that person if someone else does not, but if it is just ridiculous criticism, I will not waste my time. Again, I am pretty lazy and must be motivated to write.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/11/21/open-thread-76/comment-page-1/#comment-201601
#37 you are right! Some are born that way but most are sucked into it.
Robert,
Thanks for the link, but what does it mean?
mrmao, that was directed at gbevers.
mizar,
Considered a hate crime, by law, but accepted in many rural areas. Eg, are gay couples open about their relationships in small rural towns throughout the bible belt/midwest in the US? Brokeback Mountain was a good portrayal of how gay people have to hide their sexual orientation on pain of severe recrimination. I’ve lived in Nevada; I know the deal.
Speaking of hasty generalizations….
Sorry to burst your bubble, Mizar, but having lived in the US and Europe and Australia, I can tell you categorically that Americans are not “generally more rugged, masculine and aggressive” than your average euro or antipodean. The US has some tough rural folk, just like anywhere else, but 99% of the populace are slightly overweight lounge-lizards who would sooner watch boxing on the TV than partake in any form of rugged manly endeavor. We live in the age of the PS2, not the injin! Or, as Pohang pointed out, lolololol!
Sure, if I’d done that. Which I didn’t.
gbevers, you’re even-tempered, but don’t pretend objectivity or even-handedness. Our argument of a few weeks back showed me just how much of it you lack. It’s your business how you much you dedicate to hating koreans (in time and jobs), but wagging your finger at others for negativity is just a tad rich, don’t you think?
Well, even in the bigger cities, there’s no ‘Bash a Fag Night’ in Korea. Too bad we can’t say that about North American cities. “Bash a Foreigner’ still plays well, though , I hear, in Hongdae.
When I first went to Korea, it took me a while to realize that friends could be holding hands/arms and it not be sexual
OTOH, there’s Super Junior, which, by all appearances over the Internet, is effeminate to an uncomfortable degree, it seems, for them to be anything but….what do I know – they could be bedding 10 maidens a night (each) and five during the day.
Here marm, here is proof for the nay sayers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK9YNMYY-as&feature=channel_page
a lot of academics have mentioned that historically in asia, homosexuality is regarded as something you do as opposed to an innate part of your self identity. Homosexuality in asia is like a “hobby.” You can see this in Korean pop culture. Read Korean comic books and anytime there is some kind of comical homosexual advances, the guy rebuffs the gay with statements like, “I don’t share that hobby.”
Korea and Japan is culturally very similiar, but Korean confucianism pretty much killed off Korean gay culture. But in Japan, with Shudo and gay prostitutes, you can kind of take a guess at what Korean gay culture might have looked like if confucianism never took hold in Korea. In Japan, it was seen as some sort of warrior virtue. But even in Japan, you don’t find stories about a gay man who lived an exclusively “modern” gay lifestyle–they all seem to produce children.
I think the modern western idea of someone being “born gay” is a new concept in the far east. I have an asian american gay friend whose mother was in denial about her son’s homosexuality. She would go on and say stuff like, “You might still want to marry a woman and have a family.” etc.
A lot of Korea’s older generation DO believe that homosexuality is some kind of western disease. I think though, the modern idea of what it means to be a homosexual IS western.
confu didn’t say anything barring male to male sex, that I know of.
I think Chinese kings slept with boys on the side.
Homosexuality as you describe in Asia, was a form of
1/ male to male sex
2/ and child abuse.
3/ and inherently, included pedophilia.
well, Korean confucianism is kinda different from the original undiluted “pure” gongja version…
gay denial is existent in even non-Christian locales.
Africa, India, East Asia, etc.
I am purposefully leaving out the regions marked by Abrahamic religions.
Gays are being dishonest. It clearly says gay-ing is not allowed. They just try to equate lying with gay-ing. Pathetic.
I have never been to a US prison as an inmate.
Once a person is an inmate, movies, tales, and common knowledge suggests, men become gay-er by a huge percentage, inside prison walls.
This is elective pleasure.
It’s a sin.
i think homosexuality in asia is a lot like prison homosexuality.
There you have it folks.
WJK has made it very simple for all you to understand.
“This is elective pleasure.
It’s a sin”
This pretty much encapsulates a very prevalent attitude about homosexuality in Korea.
Hoju Saram: “(re crimes against gay people) Considered a hate crime, by law, but accepted in many rural areas. Eg, are gay couples open about their relationships in small rural towns throughout the bible belt/midwest in the US? Brokeback Mountain was a good portrayal of how gay people have to hide their sexual orientation on pain of severe recrimination. I’ve lived in Nevada; I know the deal.”
What you are guilty of here is conflating non-acceptance of homosexuality with crimes against homosexuals, a category error. Segments of any society oppose homosexuality. However, this is belied in the U.S. by a much broader social acceptance of diversity. To reiterate, hate crimes are NOT accepted in any rural or urban area of the U.S., period.
Hoju Saram: “Sorry to burst your bubble, Mizar, but having lived in the US and Europe and Australia, I can tell you categorically that Americans are not “generally more rugged, masculine and aggressive” than your average euro or antipodean.”
No bubble to burst. While your argument is in fact a red herring, it does serve to further reinforce my points about the differences between Eastern and Western culture.
First, let’s deal with your red herring. No, I’m not citing “macho,” which is Spanish, and generalizes to numerous Western nations. I’m pointing to national consciousness and self-identification. Rugged individuality is part and parcel of the U.S. national psyche whereas European culture tends to be much more rooted in community.
Even so, as you indicate, there apprears to be a macho thrust in Western societies. In focusing on the real topic at hand – cultural differences between Asians and Westerners, much research has been done on this topic. The research generally points to two psycho-cultural extremes – U.S. and East Asia, with the Europeans, Indians, and Asian dispora falling somewhere in between.
http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2005/08/68626
Hoju Saram:”The US has some tough rural folk, just like anywhere else, but 99% of the populace are slightly overweight lounge-lizards who would sooner watch boxing on the TV than partake in any form of rugged manly endeavor. We live in the age of the PS2, not the injin! Or, as Pohang pointed out, lolololol!”
This statement is of little value, as it appears to eroneously isolate Americans for criticism while not providing any information about other cultures. You draw from a limited sample, not only in terms of culture, but time frame. In fact, the shift to an “indoor childhood” (where children stay indoors and play video games instead of running around outdoors) has accelerated in the past decade, with huge declines in spontaneous outdoor activities such as bike riding, swimming and touch football, according to separate studies by the National Sporting Goods Association, the research firm American Sports Data. Bike riding, for instance, is down 31% since 1995. A child is six times more likely to play a video game on a typical day than to ride a bike, according to surveys by the Kaiser Family Foundation and the CDC.
But how different is this for Korean or European kids? And are they not also “slightly overweight” as well? No, but you digress. Activity level is not the issue here.
The issue is the broader social acceptance of diversity, including homosexuality. Korea is a latecomer on the issue of social diversity, including homosexuality, no matter how Pohang may cackle at this fact. Furthermore, violence against individuals who go against the social grain is not limited to the West. There is a significant bullying issue in Korea, with acts of violence perpetrated against those who don’t fit in. My argument was simple – you cannot evaluate a society’s general acceptance of homosexuality based on criminal acts of violence against homosexuals by some. You base it on broader social data, including activism, a general movement toward diversity, legislation and litigation, and so forth. When it comes to these things, the West has made slow progress over the decades, but progress nonetheless.
When I can count among my personal acquaintances the first gay actor to come out of the closet in Korea, then it is clear that Korea is only beginning to grapple with homosexuality.
Dogbert (#33),
I did not bash the man who lost his family. I suggested that his preacher was using him. Also, I did sympathize with the man. It is funny how some people can read right past things.
Tinyflowers (#34),
My imagination is not good enough to make up the stories I write about. You should hear the stories from my navy days in Korea.
Gerry, your comments were mean-spirited and I was not the only one to pick up on that. Like another commenter, I too was certain someone else was posting in your name.
You had a lot more to say than your speculative criticism of the minister.
Bevers, what people like you are actually under attack for is the failure to conform to the mindless paroting of what Chomsky calls “conventional pieties.” The truth is offensive when it flies in the face of the shared cultural delusions so carefully inculcated in a homogeneous society of collectivist “thinkers”, if you can characterize this as thinking at all.
You wrote that for most, the positives of Korea outweigh the negatives, so I see that you still do have the ability to tell white lies, a requirement for survival in this hypersensitive society.
While outsiders indeed have the ability to survive within Korean society by conforming to its cultural imperatives, this is mere survival, not living up to one’s full human potential, which is not really an option for outsiders.
For me the positives will not outweigh the negatives unless one can actually go beyond the expectation of mere survival to a quality of life that actually matches that of the West, which is currently just not the case. Until foreigners can be free to realize themselves fully as human beings in Korean society to the extent that they may in their native countries, then it is only proper to point out the tremendous self-sacrifice that expats like you make to live here.
Living in Korea as a non- Korean requires “tremendous self sacrifice”?
Talk about parroting pieties!
And your view raises this question: What is the ultimate goal of such self-sacrifice?
Dogbertt (#59),
This is off topic, so I am not going to repost my original post on the subject here. I will only suggest you go back and reread it and comment there if you have anything else to say.
Mizar (#60),
No, I truly believe Korea’s positives outweigh its negatives; otherwise, I would not have spent most of my adult life here. However, my situtation is changing and one very important negative may force me to leave. That negative is the problem of raising and educating my son here. If I thought I could affordably do it here, then I might stay, but my dad is also getting to the point where he needs some help. Also, there is another issue that may create new negatives for me in Korea in the coming year.
Besides, I am getting kind of sick of Korean food after twenty-five years of eating it. I used to like it pretty well, but even bulgogi does not taste the way it used to. I used to love bulgogi, but now it does not really do anything for. I still like gamja-tang, though. Anyway, recently Korean food has become a negative for me, and I have few other choices since I live in a relatively small town.
These days I dream of Texas T-bones, black-eyed peas, skillet corn beard, green beans, baked squash, roast, mashed potatoes and gravy, and all kinds of Mexican foods. And Pies, oh, I miss pies.
By the way, sometimes people leave Korea thinking the negatives outweigh the positives only to be reminded of all the negatives in their home countries. For example, I consider the expense of owning a car a negative. I also consider it a negative to have to worry about being in convenient store buying milk when armed punks high on drugs come in to rob it.
dogbertt:”Living in Korea as a non- Korean requires “tremendous self sacrifice”? Talk about parroting pieties! And your view raises this question: What is the ultimate goal of such self-sacrifice?”
You’ll have to answer that for yourself. In my case, most recently, I was offered a position at Samsung which I took partly for the job challenge, and partly for the opportunity to get back to Korea after about 20 years. After 4 years, I’d had my fill and traded it for the much better quality of life to which I had grown accustomed in the States.
While there are numerous personal reasons for becoming a Korean expat, the opportunity to futher one’s career would be one motivating factor, and the desire to see and experience new things would be another. Hope this helps.
gbevers: “sometimes people leave Korea thinking the negatives outweigh the positives only to be reminded of all the negatives in their home countries. For example, I consider the expense of owning a car a negative. I also consider it a negative to have to worry about being in convenient store buying milk when armed punks high on drugs come in to rob it.”
I understand. There are numerous inconveniences associated with exercising one’s personal freedom, but it’s far better than the alternative of living in the purgatory of expat existence, where you are extremely unlikely to have any long-term career success or fulfillment, and have to put up with the inconveniences of overcrowding, prejudice and mindless triumphalism.
To live in Korea is like extending your adolescence, and there is the fear associated with re-establishing yourself in your own culture. Inertia is much easier for a long-term expat. But to live in the U.S. is to face the realities of adulthood in a nation that allows you to function as an adult citizen.
Mizar and Bevers:
Get a room.
Bevers: part-time Japanophile, part-time Korea basher, full-time failure at life.
Mizar: sycophant to a sicko.
Mizar, you obviously have much to prove, but I believe you’re doing a bit of projecting here. Not everyone’s experience in Korea is as hellish as yours apparently was. Some people can hack it in both worlds. Whatever happened to you, I suggest you get over it and move on while you can, or it may dictate the kind of person you’ll be for the rest of your life.
I appreciate the concern, tiny, but I have nothing in particular to prove, have certainly hacked it in both worlds, and, for clarification sake did not say that I had a hellish experience in Korea, only that I have indeed moved on to a better life.
Mizar wrote:
Yes, having to function as an adult is another negative of living in the United States.
“Yes, having to function as an adult is another negative of living in the United States.”
Such shpilkes…
How to put it into plain Yinglish? How about do yourself a chesid and leave this mishegoss in the dust? Some day you’ll look back and wonder why you ever put up with these schlamazels.
Geh gezindt!
#68,
As a former Navy man, I always favored:
Gay k’ken in yam
But that’s only if you needed to insult someone as they left….
Just noticing the time…
Merry Christmas to all of the MHers, at least those that celebrate it!
What does one say to an atheist, though?
“What does one say to an atheist, though?”
Happy Festivus…for the restofus.
Or how about: We’re reclaiming Christmas, which is after all, a holiday that precedes and was coopted by Christianity.
However, you say it, Merry Xmas!
#71, Do you extend the same to Buddhists, hundus, Jews, and all the rest. Or do you just have a massive hard on for attacking Christianity?
And for everyone here who does not know, all religions borrow and adapt some concepts from previous ones. Christianity seems to be the “it” religion for many people to target on the intrawebs these days. It is really quite pathetic. If you do not believe in it, ignore it. Don’t go preaching against something you don’t believe in.
Web typo’s, converting Hindus to Hundus since 1997.
The king could choose his partner. Though he has so many options to pick up his partners, why he would have chosen a man? Men had had no preferences over women to the king. Women have busoms, too, you know. It’s strange. Maybe he was the butt-hole offerer. And the homo-sexual partner made bullish affairs at least at bed.
Are you and wjk related?
Acropolis7:”#71, Do you extend the same to Buddhists, hundus, Jews, and all the rest. Or do you just have a massive hard on for attacking Christianity?”
Yes, I do, and, no, I do not attack people’s religious faiths, but support the right of people to follow the dictates of their own conscious so long as it does not harm others. This is a constitutional right.
Why is it that people of faith seek to deprive atheists of the very rights they claim for themselves?
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