Song Seung-hwan, the producer of the hit non-verbal performance NANTA, is in trouble following a comment on MBC program Wednesday in which he made a comment judged by many to be racist.
Song was discussing his salad days, when he and his wife moved to New York in 1985. Song ran a street stall selling watches, while his wife worked in a nail salon. Well, on the first day, he finished work and went to pick up his wife, he said. But he felt strange when he saw her in a corner washing the feet of some fat black woman. He was enraged — here was his well-bred and smartly dressed wife washing the feet of a black woman.
Well, Song’s not a complete dolt — later that day, feeling he’d forced his wife to sacrifice by bringing her to Migukland, he carefully asked her how her day had been. Well, luckily, his wife was a happy sort, so she quite excitedly reported how she’d stripped the dead skin off some black lady’s feet, and so much had come off. Satisfied that his wife was enjoying the adventure, he felt relieved.
Some viewers, at least, were not impressed. One netizen castigated Song, saying if he made a statement like that in the United States, he’d be filing for bankruptcy by now. It was shocking that a person who understood the United States could make a statment like that when the repercussions of such racism were so great. Another said, basically, it was his wife’s job to give foot massages, so why was massaging the feet of a black woman so much worse?
The station came in for criticism, too, for thinking so little of the comments that they actually used subtitles, apparently, to stress them, which could promote occupational and racial-based discrimination.
Marmot’s Note: Well, aside from the irony that this comes from a man lauded for his show’s ability to transcend linguisitc and cultural boundries while at the same time promoting Korean culture overseas, it’s further evidence of something I said on the SeoulPodcast last week, namely, experiences with multiculturalism overseas does not necessarily lead to a heightened appreciation of said multiculturalism.
(HT to reader)
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Just think about that poor black woman and how she had to endure some Korean woman give her a feet massage. Oh the humiliation!
It’s a shame really, to think that Blacks and Asians were discriminated against and looked down upon from whites. Now it’s totally different, add a little money and recognition from Westerners, and Koreans now feel that they are equal to whites. And in order to do that, they feel that they have to discriminate against blacks [and I'm not saying that there is a superior race]. It’s sad really, to think that there were many black soldiers in the Korean war who actually risked their lives. It’s a shame. A damn shame how Koreans hate blacks for absolutely no reason at all.
And I’m not generalizing the whole Korean people, I should have emphasized that “some” Koreans feel that way.
Hmmmm,….. from polishing G.I. “knobs” in TDC to leveling corns on Moms Mabley’s feet in Somewhereville U.S.A……..
at best, a lateral move.
Educated Americans born and raised in a nation that has been multicultural since its inception continue to commit racial faux pas, so no one should be surprised to see a Korean in Korea voice publicly a sentiment that would be shared by many Americans. When Koreans start losing their jobs because of insensitive racist remarks, they’ll learn to self-censor.
The next time you see a fat black woman, ask her how she would feel about washing another fat black woman’s feet.
Kinda’ puts this whole thing in perspective doesn’t it ?
Another interesting thing is that a couple of papers reported the statement, but only one took exception with it. The others just took it as an expression of Song’s appreciation of his wife’s sacrifices:
http://news.search.naver.com/s.....038;frm=mr
The proof is in the pudding. How and why is the ethnicity of the woman getting her pedicure relevant to the story? Quick answer, it is only if you are a racist.
Let’s not make a mountain out of a molehill.
- Insensitive? Sure. Unacceptable? Sure. But not very racist. Perhaps he had class distinctions in mind. Somewhere in his — and, let’s admit it, not just his but most everyone elses’- psyche, fat black woman in NY = poor, lower-income class. I believe he was trying to make a point about how pathetic it is to be the janitor’s janitor, the shoeshine boy’s shoe-shine boy. Or imagine cleaning out the trash and serving food for lowly garbage folk and busboy’s. So to speak.
Moreover, it’s good that some Koreans take issue with his comment. But Korea is not America. It’s got very few black people there. There is no exigency for the sort of political correctness and sensitivity.
Still, as long as we are questioning his remark, I do believe Song is in the wrong. But that’s not a very stirring subject and it didn’t take much emotion or thought to intellectually decide on this conclusion. It’s a small, stupid subject. Next!
“Another said, basically, it was his wife’s job to give foot massages, so why was massaging the feet of a black woman so much worse?”
The answer is, unfortunately, pretty obvious.
“It was shocking that a person who understood the United States could make a statment like that when the repercussions of such racism were so great.”
Actually, some of the more unpleasant things I’ve heard said about minorities here have come from educated Koreans with years of experience living in the United States. I’m not talking about the ignorant comments and jokes one often hears, but genuinely mean stuff. (Many of the discriminatory contract changes and policies I’ve had the pleasure of experiencing at places of employment were generally defended – and often initiated – by some of the very same people.) I’ve never found the average Korean to be especially malicious when it comes to race.
In my experience Asians seem to be more cleanly and obsessed with hygiene, at least so far as bathing is concerned. Is this statement racist? The corollary that some other group must therefore be less cleanly is therefore racist. I’d say the fact that she was fat probably would have more to do with have nasty feet. If people don’t care about their body in general why would they be particularly concerned about keeping it clean?
I believe this is called the Chengdu University Defense:
http://app1.chinadaily.com.cn/.....u18-1.html
Marmot,
Your reply is non sequitur. I don’t believe Song’s comment necessarily amounts to racism. Hence, I, in my remark, am not defending against racism. I was rather contextualizing Song’s insensitivity. Which is a different issue.
We, here, view Song’s ‘faux pas’ through the emotional lens of a multicultural society — namely, America or those we live in or come from. And we tend to forget Korea isn’t fucking America. No matter how much the American (or other) ego would like to think
@abcdefg
Well, I think it’s an encouraging sign that the Korean population had problems with Song’s comment, racist or insensitive. I honestly have a hard time figuring out whether it was a foot-in-the-mouth (haha…), closet racist leaking out, or a display of insensitivity as you’ve said, even though I actually watched that episode while I was over at my parent’s place. In the context of what he was talking about… I think it was more of classism/elitism than anything else, mixed with the base discriminatory sentiment that fat black woman in NY = bottom of the class barrel. In any case, a stupid statement… especially considering Song’s works.
“Sure. But not very racist. Perhaps he had class distinctions in mind. Somewhere in his — and, let’s admit it, not just his but most everyone elses’- psyche, fat black woman in NY = poor, lower-income class. ”
That ‘class distinction’ is racist.
I agree that Korea “isn’t fucking America,” especially in regards to multiculturalism, and I’m on record — in several places, including MP3 format — saying how I would hate to see it become America, especially in regards to multiculturalism. That said, it’s one thing to say Korea isn’t multicultural and another to say a statement that clearly indicates he views blacks as beneath him and his wife isn’t racist… or as you put it, “not very racist,” or “I don’t believe Song’s comment necessarily amounts to racism.” Allow me to ask — would he have made that statement, or felt as bad, had the big fat lady been white or Asian? Or to approach this from a different angle, if I were to write in, say, the Chosun Ilbo, about how angry/humiliated/etc. it made me feel to see, say, my wife giving pedicures to Asian women (OK, imagine for the moment my wife is white), would you agree that Koreans would generally see that as an expression of racism, despite the disadvantage of not being able to contextualize said statement in a US-centric context?
“That ‘class distinction’ is racist.”
Your transition is racist. And glib.
But I don’t think that class distinction is racist because in NY – it’s accurate. It’s not innately derogatory. What’s wrong with being poor? In other words, it doesn’t have to be a very controversial demographic belief. It would be however if you’re a captious expat looking to get his hate on.
But I agree with bumfromkorea. It is certainly an encouraging sign to see the Korean audience respond as it has. But I know that the good censure there in Korea is one thing; the censure here at Marmot’s is something quite different and it comes from a completely different angle.
Marmot,
Song didn’t say that “blacks are beneath him”. You extrapolate way more than his remark allows. And your analogy is shit.
Oh?
I’ll allow you to decide for yourself what that statement implies, using whichever cultural context you prefer.
Oh, is it?
Taintedivory: “It’s a shame. A damn shame how Koreans hate blacks for absolutely no reason at all”
They have reason. Blacks are scary, deal drugs, and “do many gang violence”.
Or so they tell me.
TaintedIvory writes
“…add a little money and recognition from Westerners, and Koreans now feel that they are equal to whites. And in order to do that, they feel that they have to discriminate against blacks..”
So are you blaming westerns (or at least their recognition) for Korean racism ? Or is money the root of this evil?
Does the money and recognition make Koreans feel equal to whites or is it the discrimination ?
So is it only the rich, racist Koreans that feel equal to whites? Are they non-discriminatory up until they become rich and recognized?
If Koreans felt superior to whites, would they then be more racist in nature or must they become more racist first to feel superior?
Perhaps if Koreans become more racist, they will become richer then?
What’s the horse and what’s the cart here? What’s cause and what’s effect?
I am terribly confused.
Which misses the point that the remark may not imply anything.
But I’ll tell you what it denotes: Song’s feeling about a factual encounter involving his thin, well-kept wife washing the feet of a very fat black woman in their first day. I will avoid defending against the charge that Song believes the feet of fat black ladies in NY are beneath him.
Maybe this one particular lady had some really nasty, diabetic feet, and moreover maybe she was really uncouth in appearance and manners (as the poor in American cities may be). And perhaps when Song follows up and talks about watching his wife in the act of washing a black woman’s feet, he had nobody but that particular fat black woman in mind. There’s simply not enough information to decide.
Then again, maybe Song is a closet racist and that racism indeed “leaked” out in his remark. Whatever the truth may be, I only agree that his comment is wrong and insensitive. But insensitive is a transitive sort of adjective. It implies some one or some present group toward whom one is being insensitive. Such insensitivity must be understood in the proper context. I morally and absolutely would hate such insensitivy in the American context. In the Korean one, however, it simply comes off as stupid and not more.
I am more offended by Song discriminatory nature against fat people! What does her weight have to do with it!
Beer Bellies of the world UNITE!
Preferably over a dinner of chocolate covered fat-back pizza.
Use of the words ‘fat’, ‘black’, and ‘woman’ on their own, never mind the combination, could all possibly put Song on the hot seat in the US.
C’mon abcdefg, the fact that the woman is black clearly is central to Song’s outrage. The guy’s a petty bigot, simple as that.
Yes, one cannot think that the same sense of purported moral/racial/gender outrage would be at all equivalent if the lady in question had been fat and Korean, as rare as that may be.
Damn that man, Song, for expressing how he felt one particular day many years ago! He’s apparently out of touch with the ultra PC society.
So, he’s racist, and so are almost all of us. I’d prefer someone up front about it rather than hiding behind a PC “Oh, I’m not a racist, but don’t you ever marry a black woman”* mask.
*A comment I heard from someone claiming not to be racist.
The point is many of us harbor feelings of racism. Hell, since I’ve come to Korea I’m a kind-of racist now too. In general, I don’t have great feelings for many Korean people. And many of them don’t like me much, a white, woman-stealing, English teacher.
The question seems to be: should we censor our thoughts? I thought the west was about free speech and expressing yourself? Nobody’s hurt by him saying “big, fat, black woman.” If he used other choice words, then that’s a different story.
“How and why is the ethnicity of the woman getting her pedicure relevant to the story? Quick answer, it is only if you are a racist.”
So you think you’re not a racist?
The main question here is not the use of words “big, fat, black woman” but that Mr Song said he felt revolted/angry (ulkeok) when he saw his wife, “tidy and brought up well, wash the feets of a black woman” (text in Robert’s quote above).
“Censoring” our thoughts means having been brought up as a human being where I come from, but I’ve heard that over there in America you have that thing called free speech.
I expect such neo-Stalinesqe self-censorship in a land where the national radio station does a weekly news roundup in Latin:
http://www.yleradio1.fi/nuntii/id50.shtml
Yes, I’ve subscribed to it. Not because I can understand it, mind you. I just like listening to the Latin.
““That ‘class distinction’ is racist.”
Your transition is racist. And glib.”
The median income of blacks in Queens is greater than that of its white residents.
“But I don’t think that class distinction is racist because in NY – it’s accurate.”
No it’s not (follow the link below)…and please don’t tell me you’re one of those who thinks that Harlem is a ghetto.
“It’s not innately derogatory. What’s wrong with being poor?”
Did I ever say it was?
“In other words, it doesn’t have to be a very controversial demographic belief.”
Just read this. If you meet a New Yorker who lives below the poverty line, he or she isn’t likely going to be black.
http://webdocs.nyccouncil.info.....N=20116043
“It would be however if you’re a captious expat looking to get his hate on.”
Don’t forget all the Koreans who were offended by his comments.
I agree that context matters but not in the way you think it does. If Song were Korean-American or European-American, he might very well have thought the same but would be less likely to voice that thought publicly. Song’s remarks are less offensive in the context of Korea because there is no critical mass of Black Koreans to object , or the Chengdu University defense, as Robert so aptly named.
Suppose I use the word “gook” in speaking with white friends but avoid using the word in front of people of color. Is it still racist? I think so. Koreans in Korea making making disparaging remarks about people of other ethnicities is no different. At some level, they know it’s offensive. To wit: would Song have made those comments in English to a multiracial American audience? One can only speculate.
Why do some of you keep inflating ‘fat black woman’ to something like ‘all blacks everywhere’?
SomeguyinKorea,
Give me some statistics about fat black ladies in NY and then we’ll be talking.
On the contrary, that is, for the most part anyway, exactly what I mean when I say that context matters.
To wit, racism can most definitely exist in China — especially in the strong sense which Robert’s quote outlines above. But insensitive remarks — ie, how insensitive such remarks really are — depend very much on the contexts in which they’re said.
You talk about the use of the word ‘gook’ —- and forget that gook is an inherently racist term against asians, an absolute pejorative no matter where you say it. Song did not use the word ‘kamdoongi’. Song’s outrage may very well be an issue of class elitism (against the act of one’s pretty wife scrubbing feet – and fat black lady’s feet, no less!) and not about racism. I won’t bother to speculate psychologically beyond this.
Then let’s substitute the term “Gyopo,” which some ethnic Korean commenters have objected to because while the word itself is neutral, it is often used negatively in the context of comment section of this blog. Commenters complaining about Gyopos have been accused of racism. Reading Song’s remarks in Korean, I get the feeling that Song was repelled seeing his wife handle the feet of a woman who was large AND black.
That large fat black woman is the reason why his wife had a job. A Korean immigrant in NYC in 1985 who sells fucking watches in a street booth and his wife works in damn nail salon bespeaks of a certain socio-economic status that makes it very chutzpah for Song to have such arrogant pride.
He was probably arrogant because he knew it was only temporary. Unlike blacks, who have low IQs and are incapable of advancing themselves, the Korean immigrant will find it easy to build an upper-middle class lifestyle.
I am a KA. Thirty years ago, in Long Island, NY, I went into a barber shop to get my hair cut.
There was a lady hair cutter and she start to tearing while cutting my hair. Then, in another place, a lady hair cutter was fine but her children came for a visit and they cried out loud.
Racism is rampant. And, no one wants to show that he/she is below other “inferior” races; I believe the pecking order is white>asian=black=hispanic, even though black or hispanic will say they are above Asians.
I hope things have gotten better. However, I will not visit the same hair salon to find out if that is the case.
I hate the hair cutters crying while doing their job. I hate it. It shows their racism.
And, it is not their fault. Their parents and their society taught them to be that way.
I was blessed to live in California. There is less racism here.
However, I still do not go to a white haircutter, be it a male or a female.
I look for a Hispanic or an Asian haircutter. Even some blacks may tear up when they cut my hair.
Even today.
an experiment was done and it proved that even children hate fat people.
they liked the disabled kid better.
i’m not lying. You can look this up.
The key here was that children and adults believed you had a choice in being fat. Not in being disabled. Thus, if you were fat, it was your choice.
if she was a fat woman, getting a pedicure, there’s a good chance she had horrendous feet that also smelled like shit. Fungal infections for the most part. She may have lost some sensation down there, too.
the guy seems to be admitting of illegal labor by him and his wife, despite their visa statuses as “students” in the US.
school jobs, maybe. Doing manual labor and hired labor in the streets, with student visas?
Personally, I don’t think being fat is all up in your choice. Genetics has a strong part, too. That’s why uh, hum, you should avoid marrying a fat person, especially if the relatives are fat, have heart disease. Your children will…
This is like showing compassion and disdain at the same time.
I am ashamed of myself.
Speaking of class differences:
i was in one of those Wal-Mart scrambles in the morning.
I stood in line, with my brother.
This was 3 years ago.
When the door opened, the line meant nothing.
People shoved and pushed aggressively.
all the low class people are there, in that hour.
Not recommended for any woman, fat or thin. Especially not advised for fat women with cardio pulmonary disease.
You can die.
this only happens in Blue states.
swear to God it does.
Note. I also pushed and shoved back. It was defensive, however. Since I am a young, healthy man, no one bothered me afterwards.
if you’re liable to get injured, you’ll be paying more in healthcare bills than any money you save at WalMart, after thanksgiving in the AM’s.
#35. I happen to have black friends who were raised middle class like myself that do not fit your description at all.
My best friend is a black lawyer. Just trollin’
“Give me some statistics about fat black ladies in NY and then we’ll be talking. ”
You’ve already lost the discussion. I’ve proven that your assertion was wrong. Blacks don’t make up the majority of people who live bellow the poverty line in New York, regardless of whether they are obese or not.
‘Cuz the black folk wear shoes in the house their feet are not so dirty. And you can charge a fat foot more. Bring on the fat blacks.
@ baduk, are you the gyopo Rocky Dennis? Please post a picture of your head. I gotta know why all these barbers are crying.
SomeguyinKorea,
I had already known that you were a senile Canadian doof with poor reasoning skills and little real knowledge of American cities, but I didn’t think you’d ever prove it so clearly in a single thread.
Next time, read the link you post up before you make such an utter ass of yourself. First, statistics aside, anyone who is even only passingly familiar with the NY area can tell you that when you travel through the projects and the poorest areas of NY’s boroughs, you’re in black (and hispanic) territory.
One thing I find interesting is that the only borough that shows an ethnic equality and diversity with regard to poverty is Queens. The rest – Bronx, Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Staten Island — show that Blacks are only second to hispanics (by a slim margin) with respect to who takes the majority of the poverty cake.
Some choice quotes follow. In the Bronx:
Brooklyn:
You say Harlem is not a ghetto?
Staten Island:
^^ Pay attention to the information above. 22.3 percent black in Willowbrook, with a minority of whites, and the highest percentage of families living with under $15 k.
Here’s a contrast for you between white and black New Yorkers:
What does this information reveal to you? It certainly doesn’t contradict anything I’ve written or assumed here.
—
“Blacks don’t make up the majority of people who live bellow the poverty line in New York, regardless of whether they are obese or not.”
Anyhoots, why, oh doof, would such (mis)information be regardless of whether they are obese or not? That makes no sense.
Also,
“Don’t forget all the Koreans who were offended by his comments.”
How does this reply follow from my other remark? What in the world tells you that the Koreans who have responded to this issue at all are responding to what I suppose is an accurate demographical belief about blacks and income? — it’s hardly likely that this consideration — raised by me for discussion purposes for this thread — factored into their response at all. Get your shit straight.
“Please post a picture of your head. I gotta know why all these barbers are crying.”
Priceless.
the only thing about non-Korean barbers I get is,
“square or round” on the back?
I am thinking what the fuck?
The other thing is the “Asian” stereotype.
You want it short, right?
No, don’t make me a baldy, and don’t make it easy on yourself with a clipper.
Actually do some barbering with the damn scissor, you idiot.
Seriously, though, does any other race other than East Asian get this “always short” hair cut racism?
I’ll tell you this about Harlem in Manhatten of New York City. There are Popeye’s Chickens and Kentucky Fried Chickens operating late to night with bullet proof glass windows and handgun armed security guards. McDonald’s in those areas strangely do not.
You are welcome to double, triple check me on that one.
I’ll tell you this about the area as well. There is a McDonald’s on every block. In light of the fact that a lot of these children have daytime working mothers and fathers, where they eat is McDonald’s anytime after school. There is some truth to Supersize Me. Black girls in Manhatten look obviously fat as early as age 14. It seems New York Mayor has made it a law to list calories on the menus, so you will know before you buy.
Easily possible to consume 3 to 4 thousand calories a day.
McDonald’s is actually benign, Egg McMuffin Meal compared to Diner breakfast menus, like a Western Omlette course with 1000 calories in one meal.
Wow this certainly has been interesting reading – some entries appear to be racist and proud of it while some attempt to reason with them (you can’t – there is a strong emotional investment in racism.) What also intriqued me was the use of “senile Canadian” by abcdefg to someguy – even though I do not see any evidence that the writer is Canadian – oops, I forgot! “Canadian” is now being used by some people as a derogatory term. Interesting, too, were the attempts by some other writers to justify the original writer’s response (at being shocked to see his wife washing a black woman’s feet). They mused on the idea that lower income people have poorer personal hygene etc. – thus automatically assuming that a black person must be low class/income/whatever despite the fact that she can pay for a pedicure. Or do poor people usually go out and have pedicures rather than buy food where you live?
It’s on Youtube.
Funny thing is, the youtube poster put the whole program up, requiring it to be split into 10 min segments, and the statement at issue got cut and therefore spans two 10 minute segments.
Interestingly enough, Song says all this in the context of telling how he realized how he’d been a “frog in a well” and that (@ about 8:15 into first of the two) he says he was “impressed with all the diversity” in NYC.
The comment in question starts about about 9:00.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09q6XjS5drA
It ends at the start of this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wpAQcIwAGA
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