Shockingly, none of the four winners of the inaugural Dokdo essay contest, sponsored by the Northeast Asian History Foundation, penned a defense of Japanese claims on the rocks.
Or at least that’s what the headline would suggest.
Korea… in Blog Format
Shockingly, none of the four winners of the inaugural Dokdo essay contest, sponsored by the Northeast Asian History Foundation, penned a defense of Japanese claims on the rocks.
Or at least that’s what the headline would suggest.
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{ 39 comments… read them below or add one }
Well that’s settled that issue then.
“Based on history and international law, Dokdo is clearly Korean territory.”
If this were true, they would take the case to the ICJ and put the subject to bed.
“This essay contest is a symbol of peace and co-prosperity in Northeast Asia…”
…Except, of course, with those Japanese bastards.
Presently Dokdo is Korean territory. Why should we go to the ICJ to prove anything? That would be no different than the US going to the ICJ to prove that Texas is US territory just in case.
This Dokdo Essay Contest was one of the dumber things that Koreans have ever done. Far from being “a symbol of peace and co-prosperity in Northeast Asia,” it was an exercise in stupidity. How is writing lies, half-truths, and anti-Japanese propaganda a symbol of peace and co-prosperity?
Also, the last thing Korea should be doing is trying to “booth awareness” about Dokdo in foreign countries because if foreigners do become aware of the facts, then they will realize that Korea’s claims on Dokdo are ridiculous lies and half-truths. Is that really something Korea wants the world to know?
The Northeast Asia History Foundation seems to be nothing more than a silly propaganda machine. If they were really a true research organization, then they would invite scholars on both sides of the issue to do presentations and to debate the evidence. They do not do that. What they essentially do is have little pep rallies where they bring in the same old cheerleaders who do the same old cheers. This time was a little different since they brought in some fresh goofballs to cheer for them.
Anyway, congratulations Kenneth Mainot for winning the “Gold Prize” in Korea’s Dokdo propaganda contest. Your future certainly looks bright.
#4,
Are there Koreans in Korea that have stated how over-dramatic their fellow Koreans are acting on this issue? I realize this would ‘betray’ the Han, but surely there’s someone there who understands that this makes the ROK look like idiots.
OTOH, folks throughout history have done some strange things when they think their country’s honor is threatened.
correction
‘…Koreans in Korea who have stated…’
Gerry, I hope you realize that you’re a living joke.
As someone who believes that the Dokdo issue is an elaborate piece of guerrilla theater existing solely for my own personal amusement, I say “Bravo!”
Also, I’m starting believe the same thing about this “North Korea.”
“Presently Dokdo is Korean territory. Why should we go to the ICJ to prove anything? That would be no different than the US going to the ICJ to prove that Texas is US territory just in case.”
Yet we don’t have other countries writing essays on why Texas belongs to the US. Nor making sneakers with the picture of Texas on them to highlight our ownership. (Although that would be really cool)
Gbevers
You make a lot of statements but I see little evidence to back up your whining.
And…
Aren’t there better things to concern yourself with than some islands in the middle of the ocean?
Actually gbevers why not send in your counter essay for the next contest?
Cactus McHarris (#5),
The lies and half-truths concerning Dokdo have been so blantant, encompassing, and ongoing that the average Korean probably has no choice but to believe them. Koreans are indoctrinated about Dokdo from kindergarten. It is similar to how North Koreans have been made to believe that Kim Il-sung was some kind of god-like figure, in that opposing views are not tolerated. In North Korea, an opposing view on Kim Il-sung can get you killed, but in South Korea an opposing view on Dokdo is just political, social, and career suicide.
Moreover, South Korean historians and the media have put a lot of effort into weaving together a bunch of half-truths, which the average Korean does not have the desire or ability to confirm since it involves looking at old documents and maps that few Koreans can read and understand.
Another problem is the Japanese, who are not eager to sacrifice their relationship with Korea over a small group of diputed rocks. The Japanese government wants to continue what was agreed on in 1965, which was to agree to disagree. That arrangement worked for many years until Korean president Kim Yeong-sam decided that he wanted to change the status quo. It was not Japan that reignited this dispute; it was Korea and Korea’s crazy nationalists.
The foreigners who wrote these Dokdo essays were almost certainly not reading the original documents, but rather the tons of propaganda put out by South Korean historians and the media. What historical value does that have? None!
Actually, I believe that many Koreans are starting to see the truth since many old Korean maps and old translated documents have been made public over the past few years. It is still not to the point where Koreans can admit it, but, at least, Koreans are not as noisy about the issue as they once were.
The Korean strategy now seems to be shifting from a focus on the history to one that says, “I don’t care about the history; we own them now, so they are ours.” I think that is a better strategy because, at least, it does not involve lies.
What is funny to me is that while Korea is saying, “Dokdo is clearly Korean territory based on history and international law,” she is refusing to take the dispute to the International Court of Justice. In fact, Korea says there is no dispute, which is ridiculous given that Korea is constantly saying that the Dokdo dispute is hurting Korea-Japan relations.
If Korea really had such an open-and-shut case, then they would agree to take the dispute to the International Court of Justice rather than continue to fight with Japan about it in the Korean and international media. The fact that Korea refuses to take the dispute to the International Court while Japan is willing speaks volumes. That is something that even foreigners who support Korean claim cannot understand. Of course, if those foreigners were smart enough to know the real history of Dokdo, then they would understand why Korea refuses to take the dispute to the International Court.
And in the meantime, at the Nihon Land, Japaneses are working on things that add value, like new technologies and stuff…not giving a sh… to this childish behavior…
To gbevers,
“Anyway, congratulations Kenneth Mainot for winning the “Gold Prize” in Korea’s Dokdo propaganda contest. Your future certainly looks bright.”
It’s Maingot, actually. Would you mind stating what my future looks like, in more explicit terms? I’m curious.
Almost all of the essays look how I would write them as satire. I understand that some ESL writers submitted essays, (I guess they can get a pass if they had no one to proofread it.)but the rest of them look like something I would write in middle school. If these were the best, I shudder at what others wrote. How many people see the world in one dimension? If you haven’t been to Occidentalism or Mr. Bevers’ site, you have not been diligent in looking at the issue from a critical perspective regardless of what “side” you want to take. I don’t understand why people can’t look at the issue from both sides and think for themselves. Mr. Bevers has done more to advance the level of understanding of this issue than perhaps any other individual (especially in English materials). If anyone wants to attack Mr. Bevers, they should read his site first and then comment.
Spill it, Ken. How much money did you get?
and brent – really, you must be joking….”looking at the issue”? “read his site”? Come on, nobody cares. People criticize gerry because he’s nutty as a jaybird, not because they’ve taken the time to actually learn about this nonsense.
“The fact that Korea refuses to take the dispute to the International Court while Japan is willing speaks volumes.”
It speaks volumes because it means that Korea is fully justified in their ownership of Dokdo and thus finds it unnecessary to comply to Japan’s insistence to go to the ICJ. While Japans willingness, in spite of their irrational claims, shows how relentless their greed is.
Jewook-
The only one making irrational claims here is you, providing weak analogies and unsupported claims. All it is is just you shouting at yourself and making one huge contradiction.
If it goes unsaid that Dokdo is Korea’s, then why keep insisting? Why create institutions to fight for it? Why go to the ends of the earth to find ‘proof’ Dokdo is Korean?
Perhaps I’m crazy, but in my opinion, the more you insist on something, the more you bring it up for debate and display your own insecurity about it. If Korea is “fully justified” in their ownership, then have the ICJ weigh in, as there should be no concern. But saying they shouldn’t because ARRG ITS OURS FFDSA$@!@ makes zero sense unless your worried about not being ‘fully justified’
I really have no great leaning one way or the other on the issue (I means, they are rocks – I have better things to think about) But sometimes I shake my head at some of the way people try to push their message
Gerry, nobody has lied more in this dispute that the Japanese.
One by one I’ve watched Japan’s propaganda myths fall over the last few years. Just a hollow shell of their original assertions remain.
Japan’s claim has dwindled to “We annexed it in 1905, we don’t care about the historical circumstances just give it back..!” Japan will never again assert sovereignty over Dokdo on this flimsy premise.
Brent, Gerry Bevers no longer has a website.
It was highjacked by Japanese lobbyists who do little more than translate the rubbish spewed out by “Professor” Shimojo (the father of Takeshima day) and other radicals like “Professor” Fusanagi who apparently can’t read ancient maps. Gerry’s posts have reduced to calling Korean politician “mentally challenged”
When Japan has her disputes resolved at the ICJ, then she can whine about Korea. Otherwise she is just being very hypocritical.
Who fucking CARES?!? They’re rocks. Historical claim or not, Korea occupies them now. They’re theirs. Japan is not going to land assault teams to take the island back.
Let’s move on people. Leave the Koreans to froth at the mouth and the Japanese to poke at them.
Dear Gerry,
Thanks for the explanation.
I have found the truth on Dokdo in no less a place than Kamloops, BC.
Purchased from a thrift store, for the sum of $1 (yes, only a loonie!), was the tome ‘A Pursuit of Truth in the Dokdo Island Issue – Letters to a Young Japanese Man’. It’s by Professor Young Koo Kim and is a multi-lingual (J/E/K) book.
Cactus McHarris,
I went to Seoul two weeks ago and saw that book in a bookstore. I didn’t look at it for very long, but if you paid a dollar for it, I think you paid too much. I didn’t look like it was very well written or organized.
Darth Babaganoosh,
Many people care about those rocks, as you should know by now. Also, it is not just the rocks; it is what they represent.
Dokdo is Korea’s “big lie,” and it is representative of how Koreans deal with their history. In other words, when it comes to history, Koreans are willing to sacrifice the truth for what they believe to be the greater good, which is the advancement of the Korean nation. In regard to Dokdo, they have already committed themselves to the lie, so they feel they have little choice to vehemently defend it. That is why Koreans are so vocal. Their honor is at stake.
I agree with Bevers’: Dokdo was founded Japan. And I don’t think Japan gives a shit either way.
#21,
I was wondering if you would be the first person to say that. It may not have been well-written or organized, but just for the sheer pleasure of finding something where it shouldn’t be is worth $1 to me. Plus, there’s multilingual text for me to see how much my J/K skills have eroded.
I always wondered how much the Koreans could tell about their history. I remember the ‘5000 years of history’ phrase being used quite loosely, but when asked, Koreans could only come up with 3000+ years.
I don’t recall what the earliest human habitation was that’s been found on the Peninsula.
OTOH, the Japanese lie a lot about their own history, so I say both they and the ROKers are welcome to the Liancourts. Heck, make it a UNESCO site, one that represents bilateral East Asian harmony.
Gerry Bevers both the Japanese and Koreans are stretching the truth regarding the history of Dokdo Takeshima. However, never once have I seen you offer an opinion on the matter that differs one syllable from the rhetoric of Japan’s MOFA or Shimane Prefecture. It’s appalling you accuse Koreans of being dishonest especially when I read the garbage your yes men are posting on “your” blog these days.
It is true Dokdo Takeshima represents many things.
Japan’s history on Dokdo is a symbol of Japan’s historical disregard for the territorial integrity of her neighbours. This started as far back as the 15th Century with the invasions by Japanese pirates onto Ulleungdo. It extended beyond though Japan’s illegal clandestine fishing voyages into the region despite a travel ban declared by their own Shogunate. Dokdo is also a symbol of Japanese military aggression during the Russo Japanese war.
Korea’s history on Dokdo is a symbol of Chosun’s neglect over the Ullengdo region. It’s also a symbol of Korea’s inability to govern over herself in the early 20th Century. More recently Dokdo has a become a symbol of waning Japanese and western influence in the region. This explains why the ICJ has little importance in the issue.
Cactus McHarris. Make Dokdo a symbol of harmony!!?
How can you make a Dokdo a symbol of anything other than Japanese aggression when the entire history of Japan’s involvement on the rocks were only through their incursions into Korean land?
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-x-files2.html
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com.....ese-2.html
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com.....a-day.html
Gerry: “Many people care about those rocks, as you should know by now. Also, it is not just the rocks; it is what they represent.”
It doesn’t matter. None of it matters. Historical records don’t matter. Obsessive claims on the rocks don’t matter. Even a theoretical ruling by the ICJ doesn’t matter.
Korea occupies the rocks and Japan is not going to invade them to get them back. They are therefore Korea’s. Abracadabra! Like magic.
Even were the ICJ to rule in favor of the Japanese claims, do you honestly believe the Koreans would simply pack up and leave? Not a chance. They occupy the rocks, and that is that. The facts and the lies are meaningless. Korea occupies them and no one will take them away. Regardless of which side you believe, the rocks are currently in Korea’s possession.
I just wish Koreans would see it this way and just let Japan’s bleatings to the contrary pass like water off a duck’s back. Instead they continue to dance to the Japanese tune.
Of course, despite how “obvious” it is that the rocks are Korea’s, Korea will never take the matter to the ICJ. Why? If they win, they will not be able to act the victim to the rest of the world. Their great pissing match with Japan will have no more ammo except the yearly textbook issue. Gotta give the people something to complain about or they will turn inward and complain about their own government and courts.
Frogmouth,
How are the Japanese stretching the truth in regard to Dokdo? And don’t link me to any of your garbage because I will not read it. Just write it in simple language here.
Darth Babaganoosh,
Historical records do matter if you want to prove that Korea has no historical claim to Dokdo. As for Japan taking back the rocks, they may just do that someday. Afterall, the Korean peninsula used to belong to Japan.
What does not really matter is Korea’s occupation of the rocks since the rocks cannot be used to determine an economic zone. As it is now, Korea is putting more money into those rocks then they are getting out of them.
Whether Korea gives up the rocks or not, Korea’s reputation will be greatly damaged when her lies about Dokdo are exposed. Many in the world will assume that if Korea can lie about Dokdo, then she can also be lying about the rest of her history, including her colonial history. The word of a South Korean historian may even drop in value to that of a North Korean historian. And that will matter a great deal.
Gerry, Don’t flatter yourself, I don’t post links for you. I know you are beyond repair as many have already posted on this thread.
1. Japan says Dokdo was a part of Japan since ancient times. This is rubbish. Japan either excluded the islets as part of Japan or mapped/documented them as Korean.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-shimane.html
2. Japan’s MOFA (and not surprisingly you) say Dokdo was annexed because Japan as a nation felt an urgent need to support the bid of a grubby squatter (Nakai Yozaburo) on Korea’s Ullengdo to wack seals. This was while Japan was engaged in the largest war of the day waiting to engage Russia’s Baltic Fleet in the East Sea (Sea of Japan) Again this is B.S. and not legal under international law.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-x-files2.html
3. Japan (and you) say the Japan Peace Treaty’s terms grant sovereignty of Takeshima to the Japanese. Again this is nonsense. The U.S. one of 48 nations involved, unofficially supported Japan, but others didn’t. However there is absolutely no mention of the islets in the Japan Peace Treaty.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-sf-truth.html
One by one I’ve watched the fallacies of Japan’s claim to Dokdo fall since I started my website two years ago. Now they (you) are left with no claim of their own and have resorted to attacking Korea’s title.
Gerry Japan has decided that rocks should be used to determine EEZ’s this is shown in their position regarding the Okinotoroshimas. The problem is Japan is using fishing agreements to territorialize Dokdo. If Korea grants Japan fishing rights around the islets, it could potentially degrade Korea’s sovereignty over Dokdo. This is why they back-pedalled on the 1999 fishing agreement.
Japan might take back Dokdo? That’s a laugh. They might wanna think twice about that, knowing both China and the Norks have openly supported Korea’s claim. Im pretty sure Russia does as well.
Babganoosh.
Why should Korea let any foreign organization (ICJ) determine the territorial limits of her nation? Twice before Korea has been in this position (1910-1945) and both times the process was tainted by double-dealing opportunistic Western nations. Korea and Japan are both modern nations with the diplomatic relations in place to resolve this issue.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
frog,
if Korea is not going to get this ruled on once and for all, you know because it’s OBVIOUS the rocks are theirs, then they should keep this between themselves and Japan and leave the rest of the fucking world out of the pissing match. No one but them fucking cares.
“Historical records do matter if you want to prove that Korea has no historical claim to Dokdo.”
They only matter if you use them in a legal system that will determine once and for all who the rocks belong to. But since Korea will never allow a foreign agency to rule on the issue, “facts” and historical records mean nothing.
Darth I agree, this issue is between Japan and Korea.
However, Darth I totally disagree with you on another point. I think people do care about the Dokdo Takeshima problem. The Dokdo issue is about more than two rocks. These “useless rocks” have been territorialized into what will ultimately be the modern boundary between Japan and Korea.
There are other peripheral matters that come into play here.
There are historical issues about Japan’s denial of her colonial expansionist past. Shockingly, Japan still denies her military motives for annexing Dokdo in 1905. This is when her own military records detailing this are staring her in the face. Thus, Japan’s continual demands for Dokdo Takeshima are giving her a huge P.R. black eye every time she denies this.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-x-files2.html
There are issues if whether lands “acquired” by “modern developed” nations during the colonial era still have merit in defining the territorial limits of modern nations today. How can we define Japan Korea’s modern boundary from an era when the relationship between the two nations was that of colonizer and colony?
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com.....itics.html
There are issues about modern maritime laws, and what criteria should be allowed to determine the establishment of Exclusive Economic Zones and fishing rights. Knowing both Korea’s Ulleungdo and Japan’s Okinoshima’s are capable of generating 200 nautical mile EEZs, it makes no sense for Japan to be permitted to extend her territory to within visual distance of Korean land since the 6th Century.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com.....ese-1.html
Geography, modern politics and economics, there is no reason in today’s modern world for Japan to again assert sovereignty over Dokdo Island.
Frogmouth wrote:
It is not rubbish. Japan claims that in 1618, the Oya and Murakawa families of Yonago in the Tottori domain were authorized by the Shogunate to travel to and fish Takeshima (Ulleungdo). They also stopped at and fished Matsushima (Dokdo), which was on the way to Takeshima. The Japanese have both documentary and map evidence to back up their claim.
The Japanese map of Matushima (Dokdo) shown HERE is believed to have been made sometime around 1656. The Japanese map of both Takeshima (Ulleungdo) and Matsushima (Dokdo) shown HERE was made around 1696. At the time, the Japanese considered both Ulleungdo and Dokdo to be Japanese territory, which was why Japan accused Korean fishermen of transpassing on Ulleungdo. In January 1696, the Shogunate banned travel to Ulleungdo, essentially recognizing it as Korean territory. Travel to Matsushima (Dokdo) was not banned since it was not considered a part of the dispute. In fact, An Yong-bok had not yet made the claim that Usando was Matsushima.
Travel to Matsushima (Dokdo) was not banned until 1836 (HERE), not because it was considered Korean territory, but because a Japanese fisherman had used a trip to Matsushima as a ruse to travel on to Takeshima (Ulleungdo). Even though Japanese were banned from travelling to Matsushima (Dokdo) in 1836, the Japanese still considered it to be Japanese territory, as is evidenced in this 1878 letter written by Watanabe Kouki (渡辺洪基), who was the Director of the Bureau of Documents in Japan’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Here is a portion of the letter:
At the time, there were Japanese petitions to develop an island called “Matsushima,” but because of a mismapping of Ulleungdo by a British ship, there were two islands being referred to as Matsushima. Some Japanese believed the mismapped Ulleungdo (Argonaut)to be Korea’s Ulleungdo and the real Ulleungdo to be Japan’s Matsushima. Without knowing for sure which island Matsushima was referring to, the petition to develop the island was rejected.
It was not until 1880 that the Japanese Warship Amagi determined that the Matsushima that had been referred to a few years earlier was actually Ulleungdo and that Ulleungdo had a small neighboring island named Jukdo (Takeshima). The discovery caused the Japanese to rename Ulleungdo as “Matsushima” and the old Matsushima (Dokdo) as “Liancourt Rocks.” In 1905, Liancourt Rocks was renamed “Takeshima” when it was incorporated as part of Japan’s Shimane Prefecture. Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of “Jukdo” (竹島) and Japan’s “Takeshima” (Liancourt Rocks) were both written with the same Chinese characters.
Korea has no old maps or documents showing that Koreans ever traveled to Liancourt Rocks before the Japanese started taking them there on Japanese fishing boats in the early 1900s. In fact, when Koreans first started going to Liancourt Rocks, they used the Japanese name for the islets.
Frogmouth wrote:
Here is the link to the September 29, 1904 Petition to Incorporate Liancourt Rocks by Japanese businessman Nakai Yozaburo (中井養三郞).
Frogmouth wrote:
The reason that Takeshima (Dokdo) was not mentioned in the peace treaty was that the treaty referred to only the islands that Japan was to give up owership. Here is the relevant passage from Article 2 of the treaty:
Here is what US Special Mission Ambassador James Van Fleet wrote in his mission report after returning from the Far East in 1954:
Your claims, Frogmouth, are what are rubbish.
I have responded to your silly claims, Frogmouth, but it is now awaiting moderation, probably because I included too many links in it.
Frog,
Name one country other than Korea or Japan that gives a shit about who owns the Liancourt Rocks. Just one (with a cite).
[The US has an official policy of neutrality on the issue, so no trying to use Bush's backpedalling last month.]
Darth,
Is Korea one country or two in your world?
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kn.html#Issues
If you think about the history of the place and the geographical location I would have thought that the Russian Federation is not entirely ambivalent.
http://www.rg.ru/2005/06/24/korea-ostrov.html
Gerry, aren’t you tired of posting the same data only to be shot down?
Japanese fishermen were granted permission to voyage to Korea’s Ulleungdo region by the Shogunate in the 17th Century. These annual trips by the Murakawas and Oyas originated from Yonago. However, Japanese records show us Japan did not consider the islets part of Japan.
Japan clearly excluded BOTH Ulleungdo and Dokdo from her territory in 1695. Read this link.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-tottori.html
Japanese maps of Ulleungdo and Dokdo tell us something. The departure of these clandestine missions and their destination show us the following.
First, the Japanese never once voyaged to Dokdo as a sole destination.
Second, just after a few years after Japan’s Shogunate banned travel to Ulleungdo. The Japanese violated both Japan-Korea agreements made in good faith and broke their own domestic law by not heeding to the Shogunate’s demands. Thus we know Japanese voyages to the region were not expressions of sovereignty on behalf of Japan but rather records of trespassing.
Gerry, there were many drafts of the Japan Peace Treaty. The first five stated Korea was granted Dokdo, others ceded the islets to Japan and finally Dokdo was left out of the San Fancisco Peace Treaty altogether. U.S. opinion on the matter (as the U.S. themselves stated) “…was just one of many nations involved in the process and not representative of Allied Commands final decision on the matter….” At the very least, Korea was not participatory nor signatory to the Japan Peace Treaty thus this document has zero legal effect on the ROK. ZERO.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-sf-truth.html
Only an American (like yourself) would claim U.S. confidential memorandums dictate international law.
Gerry, throughout the history of Dokdo there were two Japans.
Edo era Japan clearly ceded Dokdo to Korea and excluded the islets from Japanese territory.
Meiji Era Japan was an expansionist colonial nation that gobbled up real estate like ice cream and had zero regard for the territorial integrity of her neighbours. Meiji Era Japan became well-versed on international “law” and stripped those nations she deemed unenlightened from their territory.
Korea has records showing they were fully aware of the islets hundreds of years before Japan’s Navy annexed the islets during the Russo Japanese War. Also, Korean documents show the existence of Dokdo was common knowledge to Korea’s coastal residents.
Koreans were living within visual proximity of Dokdo no less than 1000 years before the Japanese stumbled upon the region by chance. Artifacts such as dol-men stone grave markers hint that it may have been much earlier.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com.....ese-3.html
#36,
Speaking of dolmens (the Korean word kointol stays with me to this day), do you know why there seem to be many more in the North than in the South? Might it have been posited that the culture that established these markers were more established in the North?
Just curious, and it might take us off of this Dokdo impasse. Speaking of which, I guess Dokdo would be the perfect place to head them off at the pass, seeing that it’s two rocks, but I guess we would have to come to some sort of consensus who ‘they’ are.
Let’s leave out the Koreans and the Japanese for the moment and see what the residents of Ouagadougou have to say.
Frogmouth wrote:
The Shogun only prohibited travel to Takeshima (Ulleungdo), not Matsushima (Dokdo). Here is a translation of the January 28, 1696 order:
Frogmouth wrote:
The only version of the treaty that matters is the signed final version, and the reason the final version excluded “Dokdo” was that it only mentioned the islands that Japan was to give up ownership.
Frogmouth wrote:
In all the history of Korean before Japan incorporated Liancourt Rocks in 1905, there were only two vague references to an island that was probably Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo). The first reference was in a 1694 inspection report of Ulleungdo inspector Jang Han-sang (張漢相). Here is the relevant part of the report:
Notice that Jang said he saw an island far off to the southeast of Ulleungdo that looked to be about 120 kilometers away and one-third the size of Ulleungdo. We know that Jang did not travel to the island since Liancourt Rocks is actually about ninety-two kilometers from Ulleungdo and about 390 times smaller than Ulleungdo, not one-third smaller.
Notice that the report also said that there was a small island two kilometers east of Ulleungdo that had haejang bamboo (海長竹 – 해장죽) on one side. That was a reference to Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo (竹島 – 죽도), which is about two kilometers off Ulleungdo’s east shore. Though Jang did not name the island in his report, a map made during a 1711 inspection of Ulleungdo labeled the small island as “Usando” (于山島 – 우산도). The 1711 map also said the island had “fields of haejang bamboo” (海長竹田 – 해장죽전).
Koreans claim that Usando was the old Korean name for Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo) and that references to Usando in old Korean documents and on old Korean maps are proof of Korea’s historic claim to the rocks; however, Korea’s old documents and maps show that Usando was just the old name for Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo, not Liancourt Rocks. For example, compare the location and shape of Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo in this satellite photo with the location and shape of “Usan” (于山) on this 1834 Korean Map of Ulleungdo The hash marks along the edge of the 1834 map represent 4-kilometer segments.
The second and final vague reference in Korean history to an island that was probably Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo) was in a July 22, 1714 report on the neglect of coastal defenses in the Gangwon Province region. In the report, Gangwon Provincial emissary Jo Seok-myeong (趙錫命) was warning of the danger of a possible attack from the direction of Ulleungdo. He said he had talked to Korean fishermen on the coast of Gangwon province who told him that there was an island visible to the east of Ulleungdo that was on the Japanese border. Here is the 1714 report:
Notice the part of the report that says, “Visible to the east of Ulleung is an island that is on the border of Japan.” Here is the original Chinese for that sentence from the report:
The fact that they said that an island was “visible” from Ulleungdo suggests that they only saw the island but did not travel to it. Also, they probably noticed that Japanese ships would come to Ulleungdo from the direction of the island and assumed that it represented the Japanese border. The Korean emissary seemed to want to use this quote to show how close Japan was to Korea, which he considered a danger.
The above two references to an island “southeast” and “east” of Ulleungdo are the only two references in Korean history that suggest Koreans could see Liancourt Rocks from Ulleungdo, and neither reference suggested that Koreans traveled to the rocks. They had no name for the rocks and there are no Korean maps showing them.
Frogmouth, to suggest that Korea was “fully aware” of Liancourt Rocks hundreds of years before Japan annexed them is an exaggeration, at best. Liancourt Rocks are only visible from the peaks of Ulleungdo during special weather conditions that occur only a few days a year during certain seasons and at certain times of the day. That is most likely the main reason why possible references to Liancourt Rocks occurred only twice in Korean history and why Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo) never appeared on any Korean maps.
Stop confusing Ulleungdo for Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo).
Gerry, the Takeshima incident of 1837 showed clearly that BOTH Ulleungdo and Dokdo were excluded from Japanese territory.
You have this report on your “blog” What a surprise your version of the map drawn is black and white and not the real colour version which shows Dokdo as Korean.
It’s clear from this report that Japanese considered both islands as Chosun land.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com.....ident.html
Gerry, how much longer do you think you can fool people with your spin on the maps of Ulleungdo. We now know all maps of Ulleungdo showing six islands were copies of Bak’s map. You harp on the location of the Usando on the 1834 but did you really take a time to study the map and look at other landmarks on it Gerry.
Can you see the location of 著田洞 (Today’s Naesujeon Beach) Gerry?
Can you see the shape and form of Elephant Rock (孔岩)
Can you see the position of the Taeha Stream (大川) Gerry?
These six island maps are all copies and show the same errors of Bak’s map, in fact over time the locations of these places changed. Also look at the position of (Jukdo?) on the map. It’s drawn south of directly East “東“ in the same manner that Bak did in his 1711 map.
Gerry, just about everyone agreed on a previous thread that your interpretation of the Korean term 접해있다 was wrong. This 1714 definitely describes Dokdo and Japanese territory as separate from each other. Thus we know the Japanese have zero claim to Dokdo prior their 1905 military annexation.
Korean records of life on Ulleungdo are sketchy and finding records of ancient peoples is difficult. But we know since at least the Unified Shilla Era, Koreans continually lived, administered over and visited the Dokdo region to collect tributes for a millenium before the Japanese even showed up.
If the Japanese wanted to voyage to Dokdo they had to first sail to Oki Island. They then had to sail two and a half days against prevailing winds and currents. However, they did not voyage to Dokdo at all, but rather stopped to take a whiz or stretch their legs. Japanese mapped Dokdo because it could be the difference between life or death.
If a Korean wanted to voyage to Dokdo the just sailed there in a few hours in the direction of both prevailing winds and currents. However, what did Dokdo have that Ulleungdo didn’t? Probably only a few select plants or birds. The Koreans didn’t really need to map an island they could look out their window and see on a clear day.
The truth is Ulleungdo was the big prize. With Japan’s acquiesence of Ulleungdo to the Koreans in 1696 Japan’s need for Dokdo was nill. Anyone who says the Japanese considered Dokdo was Japanese post 1696~pre 1905, is full of shit.
Gerry, I’ve heard Dokdo is visible around 20 + days a year. Let’s see Koreans on Ulleungdo for 1000 years times 20 equals 20,000 possible viewing days for the Koreans before the first dizzy Japanese fishermen washed up on the beaches of Ulleungdo in 1618. Of course the Koreans knew of Dokdo and naturally they voyaged there.
From the Korean side because Dokdo was visible from Ulleungdo they naturally considered the islets as under their sphere of influence. From the Japanese side, because Dokdo was barren, without water, 2 and a half days travel, and visible from and island from which they were forbidden to travel to. Of course early Japanese considered Dokdo as appended to Chosun’s Ulleugndo
BTW, somebody sent me some amateur images of Dokdo from Ulleungdo the other day. They are not great but you can definitely see Dokdo. Apparently they were taken with a cheap digital point and shoot with no zoom. He said he was disappointed the island didn’t appear as clearly as his eyes saw. (click twice)
http://dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-amateur-1.jpg
http://dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-amateur-2.jpg
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