Rethinking So Far from the Bamboo Grove

by Sonagi on November 9, 2008

in Korean Diaspora, Korean History

Just as the recent thread on California’s exclusion of Yoko Kawashima’s book from the California secondary school recommended reading list has slipped under the comment radar, I’m going to resurrect the topic by revising my earlier opinion after considering the views of commenter Laughing Bear, who has actually taught So Far from the Bamboo Grove, and professional organizations like the National Council Against Censorship, which partners with the National Council of Teachers of English in defending books against community challenges.

At the California Department of Education recommended literature page, there is no document detailing the CDE’s criteria for selecting books. There is a link to a page with suggestions for district selection policies; at the bottom of that page are links to resources for dealing with challenges to instructional materials, sending an implicit message that the CDE opposes censorship.

After a coalition of parents was successful in getting So Far from the Bamboo Grove out of the 6th grade classrooms in Dover-Sherborn Middle School in Massachusetts, the NCAC collaborated with several other organizations and individuals to express its opposition in a letter to the superintendent of Dover-Sherborn schools. The letter lays out coherent, persuasive arguments against removing a book from a curriculum to appease parents, citing the district’s own material selection policy and court cases dealing with challenges to public school curricula. Dover-Sherborn has since reinstated So Far from the Bamboo Grove as part of a language arts unit on survival. I am reversing my earlier opinion and now believe that the California Department of Education erred in removing from its recommended reading list So Far from the Bamboo Grove, which is ranked 75th in an American Library Association list of top 100 banned or challenged books. Acclaimed Korean-American author Linda Sue Park, whose work When My Name was Keoko has been suggested as a complementary book to So Far from the Bamboo Grove, loves the story and vocally opposes its removal from any school curriculum.

Seventh grade language arts students at Pollard Middle School in Needham, MA, have put together a webquest on the controversial book with related links, including one to my book review at Occidentalism. As I skimmed through it, I winced at the acronym “STFU.” If kids are going to link to my words, I’d better use classroom-appropriate language, at least in my entries.

UPDATE An interesting dissenting view from a children’s literature expert and few thoughtful comments can be found here. The book’s official reading level is ages 9-12. I think even twelve years old is a little too young to deal with the complex subject matter. The content is mature but the language simple, making So Far from the Bamboo Grove suitable text for high school students reading below grade level. I do not agree with the blogger that the novel belongs in a history class, not a literature class. Literature includes both fiction and non-fiction covering a broad spectrum of topics and themes. Good literature teachers know science and social studies, too.

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{ 94 comments… read them below or add one }

1 squatch November 9, 2008 at 6:20 am

The list is amazing. Harry Potter? Adventures of Huckleberry Finn? I thought for a moment that this was a list of recommended books. I’m kind of sure atheist books are banned in some districts too- like the God Delusion.

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2 michael November 9, 2008 at 10:25 am

Sonagi, great post. Book banning is an extreme act for a democracy, even though I understand the context for Korean-American concerns in this case. I looked at Linda Park’s site and her books are well-reviewed, so a match-up of “Keoko” and “Bamboo Grove” could be interesting for students.

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3 lirelou November 9, 2008 at 10:43 am

Massachusetts is a state I detest on principle, but I was impressed the by school’s site. Any middle graders who take the time to wade through the two sides of the arguments will be well grounded in East Asian history, and its pitfalls. A tip of the hat to their teachers.

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4 SomeguyinKorea November 9, 2008 at 11:33 am

“Book banning is an extreme act for a democracy, even though I understand the context for Korean-American concerns in this case.”

Yes, I agree.

“I looked at Linda Park’s site and her books are well-reviewed, so a match-up of “Keoko” and “Bamboo Grove” could be interesting for students.”

That’s a brilliant idea.

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5 gbevers November 9, 2008 at 1:32 pm

Apology accepted. Thank the janitor for me.

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6 oranckay November 9, 2008 at 2:21 pm

So Sonagi, as I understand it, this was your “earlier opinion”:

I would not put So Far from the Bamboo Groves on any recommended reading list, but I wouldn’t ban it either.

And this is the revision:

I am reversing my earlier opinion and now believe that the California Department of Education erred in removing from its recommended reading list So Far from the Bamboo Grove, which is ranked 75th in an American Library Association list of top 100 banned or challenged books.

But has this changed, too?

Removing the book from a recommended list isn’t censorship.

Before I talk about what I’ve quoted, let me say my own peeve with the book was not simply that it painted Koreans, the “victims” in the larger historical context, as the oppressors of innocent Japanese, though surely any girl her age at the time certainly qualifies as innocent Japanese. Rather my frustration with the book, or rather the way the book is viewed, is what I see as a double standard.

Any story of colonialism and racism and oppression that took place in the West or some place familiar too it (Europe, N. America, Africa) that gets turned on its head by one “innocent” member of the oppressors would be quickly identified as such by educators in the West and – this is KEY – it wouldn’t (even have to) be banned because teachers would quickly identify it as highly problematic and it would never end up on a recommended reading list. There is nothing wrong with a story by/about a white girl who talks about how black slave in the South overtook her plantation and were mean and abusive about it in the process. It would be her story, and authentic as such (though the author of Bamboo is clearly making stuff up, saying things like how “Korean communists wearing uniforms” came to their family, even though any Korean, even a communist (how would she know, other than for Japanese colonial propaganda writing off all Korean independence fighters as such?), didn’t have uniforms at that time). However, any American teacher would be able to put that in context and provide some real balance. The way Bamboo was taught, however, led to cases where Korean-American students really were being taunted by their fellow students for the things their people supposedly did to the author. Apparently such cases were more serious in Massachusetts, but there were enough instances that I know of one personally. Kids will be kids, but one has to ask, why was it happening, and in more than one school district? Was it not something of a natural outcome, given the book? (BTW I bought my own copy, used…)

I think most school administrators make a lot of decisions based on what will cause the least controversy, and when it’s clear a group of parents are going to be a nuisance about something… anything… a lot of administrators are going to take the route that offers the least headaches and requests from parents for meetings every Monday morning. That said, I’m glad I’m not in a position where I’d have to make a decision about Bamboo, which, as I think about it, would probably be to allow the book to be taught, but with ample context, additional reading, etc, which, frankly, I don’t see as being all that less fascist than banning it.

Anyway Sonagi, I think books shouldn’t be banned, but Bamboo wouldn’t have been banned if it hadn’t been on recommended reading lists, and it wouldn’t have been on any recommended reading lists if it had portrayed any “colonizer/colonized” relationship the West is familiar with in a similar fashion. I think a double standard exists, even if it’s something of a natural one (Westerners can’t know everything!!), but it’s there and no less a problem than the book itself. I don’t even know what this should mean at a practical, education administrative level, but I think it’s got to be true, and that there are probably many books that are controversial not just for what they contain, but for how they as books were used and taught, or for being classified as recommended, exemplary, typical, etc. I don’t think Bamboo should be banned, but that’s only because I think it’s a bigger problem that it was recommended in the first place. LIke you’ve said, “Removing the book from a recommended list isn’t censorship.” Do you still think so? I think Mein Kampf should (or rather “can”) be taught in American high schools, obviously with ample context, and I’m confident that in 99.9% percent of American schools the adequate context would be provided, but I also don’t fault the European countries that ban it altogether. (Please don’t think I believe Bamboo and Mein Kampf to be comparable, beyond for a hypothetical discussion about banning books.)

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7 wjk, 검은 머리 외국인 November 9, 2008 at 2:47 pm

no book should be banned.

not all books should be on a mandatory reading list.

how this book ended up being mandatory reading is beyond me.

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8 wjk, 검은 머리 외국인 November 9, 2008 at 2:52 pm

no school that I know of puts these books on mandatory reading lists.

1/ Bill Clinton’s “My lies.”
2/ John McCain’s “Faith of My Fathers.”

When I was in highschool, Anne Frank’s Diary was not mandatory reading.

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9 SomeguyinKorea November 9, 2008 at 3:16 pm

“no book should be banned.

not all books should be on a mandatory reading list.

how this book ended up being mandatory reading is beyond me.”

I’ll take it one step further. I don’t see a use for mandatory reading lists.

We were encouraged to pick whatever book we liked. We had to read a couple of the classics in high school, but I can honestly say that we didn’t have a mandatory reading list.

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10 bumfromkorea November 9, 2008 at 4:07 pm

What I think should have happened is, once again, that the students be given the historical context (you know, the one that everyone except Gerry, Matt, and a few others at the occidentalism & the people in black vans accept) so that what happened to those Korean American students don’t occur. Every book, regardless of whether it’s controversial or not, is taught with proper context – when I was reading The Invisible Man in class, I was provided with ample reviews of the state of the civil rights movement, discriminatory laws, racial conflict, etc. to put the story in context. When we read Heart of Darkness, we learned first about the colonialism in Africa to understand what the hell Conrad was rambling about. Now that I think about it, it’s strange that the context have not been provided before teaching this book.

I’m not advocating (or validating, I guess) banning of the book – but when this book is taught, proper historical context should be provided or, as Wangkon suggested in the other thread, taught along with that Keoko book (I don’t remember what it’s called). Otherwise, you’re just establishing a historical narrative as skewed as old Western movies established with Korean kids in the 60’s & the 70’s (“Man, Indians are soooo evil! Go cowboys!!!”)

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11 Pyotr November 9, 2008 at 7:05 pm

Dover-Sherborn has since reinstated So Far from the Bamboo Grove as part of a language arts unit on survival.

What the hell is “a language arts unit on survival”? Don’t they teach fucking English any more?

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12 dda November 9, 2008 at 7:38 pm

What the hell is “a language arts unit on survival”? Don’t they teach fucking English any more?

That would be too politically incorrect…

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13 cm November 9, 2008 at 8:03 pm

I took some of these excerpts from enotes and classzones that offer suggestions for curricular activities for this book. Interesting.

“Eleven-year-old Yoko and her family are stationed in North Korea during World War II while Yoko’s father works as a Japanese government official in nearby Manchuria. They live in a bamboo grove in Nanam until the Russian and Korean Communists invade their country and escalate their war against Japan. Because Yoko’s father protects Japanese interests, the family knows they are in particular danger and must flee the country as soon as possible. So Far from the Bamboo Grove tells the story of their escape. Yoko, her mother, and her sister Ko learn of the urgency of their escape one… ”

“In “So Far From the Bamboo Grove”, how do they survive the train ride from Nanam, and how does their brother survive the Koreans?”

1. Life Map.
So Far from the Bamboo Grove describes Yoko’s journey from Nanam to Kyoto and suggests her journey from childhood to young adulthood. Invite students to create maps showing their own “life journeys.” Encourage students to select and reflect on the events that they consider most important in shaping their lives today.

2. What If?
Discuss with students the definition of “refugee”: one who flees in search of refuge, as from war or political opression. Have students consider how their lives would change should they suddenly become “refugees.” Where would they go? What would they do? Who could they depend on for help?

CROSSCURRICULAR ACTIVITIES

1.

Emergency!
The Kawashimas must leave home fast, taking only what they can carry in backpacks. If students were in a similar situation, what would they take? Give them a time limit to make a list of items, including food, that they would need for two days as evacuees. Then have them discuss their lists. Challenge volunteers (with parent permission) to pack their items and live out of their packs for one or two weekend days at home.

2. To Stay or Not to Stay ?
Yoko has a future to think about. Should she stay in school? Should she drop out, if only temporarily, to aid Ko in earning the money they desperately need? Let students help her decide. Have them create a newspaper advice column in which Yoko writes for advice and student “columnists” respond. If computer facilities are available, students can lay out and print their work in a newspaper format.

RESEARCH ASSIGNMENTS

1. Compare/Contrast.
Point out to your students that Japanese people living in Korea became displaced persons during World War II; instruct them to find out about the experiences of Japanese-Americans in the United States during these years. Tell them to use their research to write a comparison and contrast paper, relating the experiences of both groups.

2. Refugees.
Instruct students to research modern-day refugee conditions around the world. They can visit Amnesty International’s website (www.refuge.amnesty.org) or use other websites, the library, or textbooks for their research. Challenge them to find an account of a family or individual with a situation similar to Yoko and her family—who had to rely on their own resources and strength of spirit to survive—and have them write a report about the family or individual

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14 Sonagi November 9, 2008 at 10:13 pm

@Oranckay:

I’m not sure that I would have included So Far from the Bamboo Grove on the original list, but once there, it shouldn’t have been removed to appease a particular group of parents. I’d be interested in reading a statement from the CDE explaining the reasons for their decision.

If the book wasn’t being taught properly as we see from CM’s example, the problem isn’t the book but the teacher. As for the inclusion of books painting transgressors as victims in a Western setting, The Last of the Mohicans comes to mind immediately. The story itself contains a number of historical inaccuracies and has been further distorted in movies.

@wjk and Someguy:

A recommended reading list is not a mandatory reading list. I think you know the difference in meaning between the words “recommended” and “mandatory.”

@Pyotr and Dda:

Language arts readings are often organized into thematic units. “A language arts unit on survival” means that the students will explore two or more texts with the common theme of survival.

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15 SomeguyinKorea November 9, 2008 at 10:43 pm

#13,

So, it’s on a recommended list, not a mandatory one? It seems less of an issue, then.

“As for the inclusion of books painting transgressors as victims in a Western setting, The Last of the Mohicans comes to mind immediately. The story itself contains a number of historical inaccuracies and has been further distorted in movies.”

Well, sure. You don’t take your history lessons from movies. Besides, it’s a work of fiction.

PS. My female friends were just happy to see Daniel Day Lewis in a loin cloth.

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16 cm November 9, 2008 at 10:44 pm

“If the book wasn’t being taught properly as we see from CM’s example, the problem isn’t the book but the teacher.”

Wouldn’t it be unfair and unrealistic to expect teachers to ‘properly teach’ something that most have little knowledge of, nor any awareness?

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17 Jewook November 9, 2008 at 11:01 pm

I also find it problematic that the book was removed. The Korean-American parents have really over reacted. That also seems to be the problem here in Korea. If something is found offensive people forget all about “freedom of speech” and just try to get rid of it. They seem to forget that all types of expressions are important in a democratic society and that things can be learned from offensive works and put to good use. Like the movie “Falling Down” starring Michael Douglas, which was banned in Korea for depicting a Korean store clerk negatively. It is an example of how some Americans may view Koreans. Instead of burying our heads in the sand and banning it, we could have accepted it as a means to educate ourselves. Take it in retrospection, as a penance to the way some Korean businesses place more importance on the bottom dollar than on good service and consumer courtesy. And become informed on the misconceptions that some Americans have towards Koreans so we can strive to change those misconceptions. But many were just blinded by anger and insult to see the bigger picture, and they decided to ban it and remain ignorant.

It is the same with the Koreans parents reaction towards “So Far from the Bamboo Grove.” They were too worked up with emotion to see that the novel could actually be a good opportunity. Instead of having it removed they should of done the exact opposite, and have the book promoted more widely as school curriculum. Then point out that the novel’s viewpoint is too narrow and that parts of it are historically incorrect and thus unfair to the perspective of Koreans. And to remedy this, require that a complementary book (“When My Name was Keoko,” which sounds like a great idea!) be read alongside it and also have a brief history of southeast Asia surrounding WW II (including the Japanese occupation of Korea and the innumerable atrocities they committed) become part of the lesson. If Yoko Watkins truly has “vile intentions” to warp history like many Koreans claim, what better way to undermine those “vile intentions” than by making American students more versed in southeast Asian history.

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18 Sonagi November 9, 2008 at 11:06 pm

@Someguy:

So Far from the Bamboo Grove is semiautobiographical. Most works of historical fiction contain inaccuracies, including Linda Sue Park’s When My Name Was Keoko

@cm:

Recommended reading lists contain hundreds of titles for teachers to choose from. If a school English department selects a text with an unfamiliar historical or cultural setting, then it should provide background knowledge prior to teaching. This is true for fiction and non-fiction. A lot of my prep work is spent reading and discussing a particular topic before I teach related texts for the first time. Kids are prolific question generators, and sometimes they hit one out in left field because they understand the world differently than adults.

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19 SomeguyinKorea November 9, 2008 at 11:47 pm

“So Far from the Bamboo Grove is semiautobiographical. Most works of historical fiction contain inaccuracies, including Linda Sue Park’s When My Name Was Keoko?”

I was writing about The Last of the Mohicans.
In any case, sure, I agree. Even when a book isn’t fiction, it’s still only as accurate as the author’s interpretation of the events.

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20 bumfromkorea November 10, 2008 at 1:18 am

@Jewook

Regardless of Watkin’s intention (which I seriously doubt is vile or revisionist), the effect of her book being taught without context is clear (Korean American kids in MA, for example). It is a standard procedure, I believe, for teachers to give background information on the timeframe, background, as well as other relevant information prior to teaching a book. It is not that hard (it should have happened in the first place, if anything else to promote the students’ understanding), and calling even that censorship is really, really abusing the definition.

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21 Jewook November 10, 2008 at 10:59 am

bumfromkorea

“the effect of her book being taught without context is clear” “I believe, for teachers to give background information on the timeframe, background, as well as other relevant information prior to teaching a book.”

I agree you, reading it without context is very inappropriate and will give a very limited perspective of actual history. But having it removed just because you are angry and upset is also inappropriate. That’s a problem also in Korea, people get so worked up with emotion over something offensive or disagreeable they just try to take it down without thinking it through or finding constructive and intelligent ways to deal with it. Just getting rid of something isn’t always the best answer, it isn’t the best answer when dealing with this book either. I think – (when the book is used as curriculum) requiring that a complementary book be read and also having a brief background history explained – would be a more constructive. Using the book to get American students to know more about southeast Asian history and the Japanese occupation of Korea would benefit Koreans more than just trying to get rid of it.

I hope you didn’t think I was implying that the author had ?vile? motives. I was speaking hypothetically: that making American students more versed in southeast Asian history would undermine those ?vile intentions? more effectively.

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22 Sonagi November 10, 2008 at 11:19 am

Southeast Asian history? I think you need to brush up on regional geography.

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23 bumfromkorea November 10, 2008 at 12:15 pm

@Jewook

I agree, sans the geographical assignment of Korea and Japan.

Why are we arguing? :-D

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24 abcdefg November 10, 2008 at 12:47 pm

I agree it’s all about double standards. If, hypothetically, a book about malevolent Jews killing Germans in Hitler’s Germany appeared and existed on a recommended reading list and some American group (Jewish American or not, it doesn’t matter) advocated its removal how would the crowd react here? Surely, it would be absurd to accuse these groups of nationalism — Hitler’s regime is already defunct. And it would be absurd to accuse such people of acting on behalf of Israel — “Dae Han Jew Guk,” “North Jewland,” or whatever.

Contrary to a certain blatant idiot in the other thread, I don’t believe this issue needs to be construed in trans national terms at all. There is, ie, no zero-sum game involving nation-states going on here. This issue is first and foremost a personal, social, moral and cultural one, and its domain is a single community. Ie, individuals in some place in America find a book offensive. The reasons that follow for why the book is offensive to anyone would be secondary; reasons may be legitimate or not legimate (those who are offended can say a book is misleading or based on false information or inappropriate for other reasons).

My point is that I don’t think such personal activism constitutes a default of patriotism. It is, quite contrarily, a natural expression of community members doing whatever they are entitled to do as members of a community. Whether the interests of these individuals match the interests of everyone else is never a priori negative – or positive. We determine such through evidence and consideration.

The universal appeal, anyway, I believe, of the removal of Yoko’s book- a book, BTW, involving North Koreans – would have to be a moral one and it would have to, furthermore, have some appeal to some sensible, well established norm. We know how books about malevolent slaves and criminal Jews would be treated. Why don’t we enrich our reading lists and act consistently for those other books which have offended other members of the community? If these members are Korean, then so be it. They’re American too.

Reading lists are not sacred and immutable. And nobody’s book has been banned here.

That said, I haven’t read Yoko’s book and I don’t know how denigrating it is or what kind of false or misguiding impression it can give to an 11 year old reading it. We should hope the book is at least minimally factual and then we should hope for perspective. The latter wouldn’t exist for American middle schoolers and that’s why I’d never place Yoko’s book on a recommended reading list. It is controversial. In the least, removing the book, would be respectful to Americans who disagree with the book’s placement on a recommended reading list, and respectful of those active standards which such Americans would appeal to for their justification. That’s got nothing to do with South Korea.

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25 Jewook November 10, 2008 at 12:49 pm

Sonagi

Would saying east Asia be precise?

The distinction is a little confusing to me because China big enough to be both southeast and east Asia. China Korea and Japan are so intertwined that if China is defined as southeast Asia the other two seen like they should follow suit. Maybe I wasn’t paying attention when I was in school.

bumfromkorea

Guess we’re not. :)

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26 gbevers November 10, 2008 at 3:49 pm

abcdefg (#23),

Why don’t you write a book? You could title it, “The ABCDEFG’s of Gobbledygook.”

I am not sure, but I think it was Bruce Cumings who referred to Korean history between 1937 and 1945 as a period of “hidden history” because Koreans do not talk about it. They do not talk about it because that was a time when there was a great deal of collaboration and cooperation with the Japanese. In other words, a lot of the stuff that Koreans today say they were forced to do between 1937 and 1945 was not as forced as Koreans would like people to believe.

Koreans like to claim that Korea’s colonial period was full of mass murder, rape, and sexual slavery, but they are vague on the details. What mass murder, what rape, and what sexual slavery? They like to claim that Japan tried to destroy Korean language and culture, but Korean dictionaries, grammar books, newspapers, and magazines were published during the colonial period and the Korean language was taught in public schools, at least, until the later years.

Koreans like to claim that they forced to give up their Korean names, but from what I have read, Koreans were only asked to register a surname (family name), whether it be Korean or Japanese. They were given the choice of keeping their Korean surname or choosing a Japanese surname, but they could not change their Korean surname to another Korean surname. If they did not register, then their Korean name was registered for them. Also, they could change their Korean surname to a Japanese surname free of charge, but if they also wanted to change their given name to a Japanese given name, then they had to pay for that privilege. As Matt of Occidentalism suggested earlier, if a Korean had a Japanese given name, then you should be suspicious of that person if he or she claims he or she was forced to take the name.

When Japan was defeated in World War II, being Japanese or pro-Japanese became a liability, so many Koreans started distancing themselves from Japan by claiming they had never liked Japan, anyway, and was always against her. Many started pointing fingers at others and claiming that they had been pro-Japanese. Of course, pointing fingers at others is one way to take attention off yourself. But how could you deny you were pro-Japanese if you had a Japanese name? Well, why not say you were forced to take it?

Above, Sonagi mentioned the book, “When My Name was Keoko,” which was written by Korean-American Linda Sue Park. Sonagi suggested that Park’s book could be read together with “So Far from the Bamboo Grove” to help balance the different views. That’s a good idea, but, as Sonagi pointed out, Park’s book also has historical inaccuracies. Also, it seems that Park’s book was, at least, partially written based on Korean propoganda about the colonial period, which makes it more fictional than historical. For example, Park said that her family was forced to adopt Japanese names, but as Matt of Occidentalism has pointed out, Koreans were not forced to take Japanese names, especially given names (first names). In fact, they had to pay to have their given names changed. Therefore, since Keoko is a Japanese given name, Park’s claim that her family was forced to take Japanese names should be viewed with suspicion.

There are other suspicious claims, as well. For example, Park wrote that her uncle was beaten up by Japanese police when he defaced newspapers by changing the Japanese flag to the Korean flag on the picture of the Korean man who won the marathon under the Japanese flag in the 1936 Olympics. She said the picture was in a Daegu newspaper the day after he had won the marathon. But how did they get a picture from Berlin to Daegu in just one day? There was no Internet or fax machines back then.

Korean history textbooks are full of anti-Japanese propaganda, and they do not talk about what is talked about in “So Far from the Bamboo Grove,” so when Koreans say that Watkin’s book is distorting history, what they are essentially saying is that it is not anti-Japanese enough.

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27 gbevers November 10, 2008 at 3:55 pm

Correction: abcdefg (#24)

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28 EKC448 November 10, 2008 at 5:18 pm

My english is not as good as people here but please bear with me since I have a daugheter who had to read it for school. She was in 6th grade and she came home very upset and told me that some of her classmates were making not very “nice” comments about Korean people. I tried to explain the best I could about how some Korean people might have felt angry. I asked her if teahcer didn’t give any background and she said no. I told her maybe she should talk to her English teacher and she did. She asked her teacher to let her do a special presentation at the end of book about japanese colonization and the teacher agreed. My daughter never got to do the presentation because teaher didn’t have time left at the end of class…
Like any other parent, I really didn’t like the fact that my child had to feel unconfortable with such matter. Not all 6th graders are mature enough to understand or to separate that people who harmed yoko’s family were “bad” people reagardess of their nationality.

Mr. Bevers,

I left Korea when I was eight and lived in South America for long time before coming to USA. My parents never sat me down to teach me to hate Japan or Japanese and I have not read any propaganda since it was impossible to find any material in Korean language anyways. From time to time, I would hear my parents talk about how they grew up during colonization and what I can say is that it wasn’t such happy time. When I read your posts (and also Matt’s) I feel like you want to define everything in “white” and “black”. However, I find that lots of situations of our lives are define by “grey”. I have heard about colonization from people who suffered it in person and none of them had very found memories of that time. People had to make unconfortable choices because they didn’t want to suffer disadvantages at the time when food was so scarce that children were dying of hunger.
Yes, Mr. Bevers, Korean people don’t like to boast about time of colonization when whole nation had lost its autonomy and had to live under Japanese domination. I can tell you for sure that it is not because of the “collaboration” or “cooperation”. It is because of the shame of losing one’s own country.

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29 Jewook November 10, 2008 at 7:46 pm

#26

Yes the Japanese were kind and gentle oppressors. They were benevolent invaders that had come to teach us ignorant Koreans folks. We just rolled out the red carpet and welcomed them. They were cuddly warm like those sweet dear Nazis. On a peaceful mission to make the world a shiny better place.

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30 cm November 10, 2008 at 10:59 pm

Just ignore Mr.Bevers -san. He has been on a great mission for many years, to let everyone know that he is a great admirer of Japanese Bushido way.

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31 abcdefg November 10, 2008 at 11:05 pm

abcdefg (#23),

Why don’t you write a book? You could title it, “The ABCDEFG’s of Gobbledygook.”

If I did, I’d think you and a lot of the fake “academics” here would be insanely jealous. Because with that one book, in just one effort, I will have surpassed all of their life’s accomplishments. Pretty sad, no?

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32 WangKon936 November 11, 2008 at 2:01 am

# 28,

I remember my grandparents talking about the occupation (particularly my father’s side) in the same manner, but I was just a kid and the memories are hazy. What I do remember is feeling the indention in my grandmother’s skull that came from a Japanese rifle butt.

I think people like Gerry and Matt are silently hoping that people who remember the occupation will all finally die out. It will make their jobs a lot easier without having to contend with viewpoints that irritatingly rely on first hand experience.

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33 WangKon936 November 11, 2008 at 2:34 am

“Therefore, since Keoko is a Japanese given name, Park’s claim that her family was forced to take Japanese names should be viewed with suspicion.”

Gerry,

Both Bamboo and Keoko are full of inaccuracies as many fictional books aimed at young people tend to be more geared to story telling than complete historical accuracy. The fact that you highlighted Keoko’s inaccuracies while ignoring Bamboo’s puts into suspect (or focus) your own agenda.

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34 shakuhachi November 11, 2008 at 3:17 am

abcdefg, Japanese were not Nazi’s and the Japanese administration of Korea was not the holocaust. The Korean people had limited political rights (but better than Choson political rights) and civil rights, far better that Choson civil rights. The comparison between angry Jews massacring Germans (it happened) and angry Koreans massacring Japanese is a completely false one. The Koreans were not the subject of Nuremberg laws or such institutional oppression. The comparison is utterly ridiculous and insulting.

WangKon936, Keoko has a major plot hole that renders the whole story suspicious. Bamboo’s merely fictionalizes something that many Koreans themselves have reported.

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35 WangKon936 November 11, 2008 at 3:25 am

Ummm… not exactly. First of all, bamboo doesn’t really grow in Southern Manchuria/Northern Korea, so that places into suspect the very fact that Yoko’s family was in that part of the country as she describes it. Of course she’d have to be that far north in order to meet those nasty Korean Communists that did all those bad things to her family. However, there was no organized Korean Communist Party in the peninsula in 1945, so “uniformed” Korean Communist soliders would be highly unlikely. Are these not “major plot holes” also?

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36 EKC448 November 11, 2008 at 5:55 am

#34
You telling me that Koreans had limited political rights so they should feel better than Jews???? Not that it makes any better but jews weren’t in their own country when they were discriminated but Koreans were. It really saddens me that you are defending how Japanese were not as bad as Nazis when Japanese invaded a country with its own language and culture and made its people “second” citizens on their own land. Nazis did wrong so did Japanes at that time. Let Koreans anger simmer and in time it will be forgotten when old generations die. I understand that new generation of Japanese has nothing to do with what happen then. I also understand that there was some ramifications at time and Japan did what it felt best for its own country just like Nazis felt they were doing for Germany. However, it does not change fact that people were oppressed and they suffered and they have right to get angry about it. People like you make things worst by saying it wasn’t as bad as it seems when you are not the one who suffered consequences of colonization. I don’t want to hear anymore about how it was better off for Korea to been under Japanase domination, how Japan modernized backward country and etc, etc… this type of thinking is same as saying that Black Americans were lucky to have been slaved because now they live in USA. No matter what, when we stand and view things from our perspective, as people of this generation slavery was wrong, what Nazis did to Jews was wrong and yes, what Japan did Koreans was wrong. You have right to discuss about it as much as you want but your words have no weight as of my father, mother, uncles and aunts who grew up in Korea at that time.

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37 shakuhachi November 11, 2008 at 7:30 am

EKC448, the Koreans were not the subject of institutionalized oppression like the Nuremberg laws. If you cannot see the difference between Korea under Japanese administration and the way Jews were treated in Germany, and how improper the comparison is, there is no point talking to you. By the way, Jews were in their own country too.

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38 Zonath November 11, 2008 at 7:36 am

Not that it makes any better but jews weren’t in their own country when they were discriminated but Koreans were.

Wuh? There may not have been a Jewish nation-state in Europe at the time of WWII, but the Jews who were “discriminated against” were (for the most part) absolutely in their own countries, whether they were citizens of Poland, or Czechoslovakia, or Germany, or France…

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39 shakuhachi November 11, 2008 at 9:05 am

WangKon936, the bamboo doesn’t really matter unless she was being attacked by sentient sticks of bamboo. In Keoko’s case, she is saying she was being forced to change her first name, which is just silly because people had to actually pay money and go through extra procedures to do it. Not to mention that the change of family name was not forced, either. Plenty of people did not change their names.

But if you want to split hairs, who said there is no bamboo in North Korea? There is indeed bamboo, and Chungjin, where Yoko was, is near the sea and is appropriate growing area for bamboo.

There is a “bamboo grove” near Kaesim temple in North Korea. We are told that “the bamboos grow well even in cold areas.”

http://www.vnctravel.nl/korea/chil-ss.htm

According to this bamboo distribution map, there is bamboo in North Korea.

http://web.archive.org/web/200.....rcemap.htm

As for the Korean communists, there were Korean communists in Korea at that time. As soon as Japan surrendered there were Koreans claiming they were communists.

This book describes how Koreans in 1945 suddenly started calling themselves communists. (Thanks, Gerry).

The following is an excerpt from the autobiography of 김병걸, “실패한 인생 실패한 문학,” where he talks about the idealogical confusion following Korea’s liberation in 1945:

모 두 하루아침에 달변가가 되었으며 아울러 잔잔하기만 하던 마을에 사상적인 균열이 일기 시작했다. 좌(左)가 좋으냐 우(右)가 좋으냐 하는 시비와 논쟁이 날이 갈수록 심화되어 가는 것이었다. ….바로 얼마 전까지만 해도 일본을 절대적으로 믿고 충성스럽게 뛰어다니던 사람이 하루아침에 열렬한 사회주의자가 되어 떠벌리고 다니는가 하면, 심지어 만주에서 아편 장사를 한 것으로 알려진사람도 사상가인 것처럼 행세를 했다. (pp. 108~109)

One morning everyone had suddenly become an eloquent speaker. In a village that was once quiet, ideological cracks start to appear. As the days go by the debate on whether the left is better or the right is better intensifies. …. People who had just previously run around showing absolute trust in and allegience to Japan had suddenly become passionate socialists running around wagging their tongues. Even a man who was known to have been an opium dealer in Manchuria started acting as if he were some profound thinker.
——-

Kim Il Sung also arrived in Korea in September 1945, with Korean partisans that were uniformed members of the Soviet Army (uniformed communists). That puts paid to the idea there were no uniformed Koreans until 1948.

In addition, many men of the time wore clothes that were similar to military style. All they needed was a red armband and you have a communist soldier.

There is plenty of testimony and similar accounts to that of Yoko, like this one.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/私が.....mp;s=books

The book is called “what I did on the Korean peninsula”. It describes at the end his escape from Korea, and how he escaped forced detention and banditry by Koreans.

So no, they are not major plot holes, nothing like “when my name was Keoko”.

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40 abcdefg November 11, 2008 at 9:16 am

abcdefg, Japanese were not Nazi’s and the Japanese administration of Korea was not the holocaust. The Korean people had limited political rights (but better than Choson political rights) and civil rights, far better that Choson civil rights. The comparison between angry Jews massacring Germans (it happened) and angry Koreans massacring Japanese is a completely false one. The Koreans were not the subject of Nuremberg laws or such institutional oppression. The comparison is utterly ridiculous and insulting.

You sketch out only a difference of degree, not of kind. My point stands. And your revisionism is insulting. Both scenarios I’ve defined deal with counteraggressions of individuals taken against their codemned aggressors. One is a book about North Koreans and is found in recommended reading list. The other is a hypothetical book (I presume they haven’t been written, although I may very well be wrong) that would never exist on a recommended reading list.

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41 WangKon936 November 11, 2008 at 9:32 am

shakuhachi,

Bamboo 45 miles away from the Manchurian border is rare. It is possible, but unlikely that Yoko’s family had a backyard full of bamboo in that particular part of North Korea.

You are quoting from Kim Il Sung’s autobiography and using it as a source? Well, if you need to pound in a round peg into a square hole to prove a point, okay…

There is also the issue of B-29’s evidently bombing Korean cities, which also is an inaccuracy. There is more… but again, it’s a children’s book and I don’t expect the details to be as rigorous as a book written for adults.

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42 EKC448 November 11, 2008 at 11:22 am

Zonath- yes you are right that Jews were in their own country as much I am in my own country right now(USA). But at same time were they really in their own “country” as much as I am in my own “country”? If Nazis=Germans and Jews=Germans since they are all born in country Germany, then can we say that Germans killed Germans? I shouldn’t have used word “country” in more broad sense than just a geographical location where one is born or gets citizenship.

#37- you have a very selective way of thinking. Whether robbery was done by knife or gun,crime is a crime. My comparison was not about who did worst or wheather the suffering under Japanese domination was same/worst or better than what Jews have suffered under Nazis. I was pointing out that what Nazis did was wrong and so is what Japanese did to Koreans. You can’t tell someone they should stop being bitter since someone had it worst. Each person can only live in their own reality. Should Koreans feel 25% or 40% better than Jewish people since there wasn’t in Korea a “institutionalized oppression like the Nuremberg laws”?

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43 Sonagi November 11, 2008 at 11:51 am

@EKC448:

The Jews who died in the Holocaust came from many European countries. Some were Germans, others were from Poland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, France, or elsewhere. Prior to the rise of the Nazis, Jewish people were integrated into the mainstream of Western European societies. They thought of themselves as French, German, or Dutch. Some were religious while others were secular. Thus, it can be said that Germans killed Germans, Poles, Austrians, Dutch, French, and other Europeans. Half of the 12 million who perished in the concentration camps were not Jewish.

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44 redneck hickboy November 11, 2008 at 12:33 pm

This is good news. The American impulse to educate and to nurture public morality has trumped the Korean impulse to hide the truth, if that truth is unfriendly to Korean PR attempts. GO America.

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45 Jewook November 11, 2008 at 1:05 pm

shakuhachi

“If you cannot see the difference between Korea under Japanese administration and the way Jews were treated in Germany, and how improper the comparison is”

How improper the comparison is? Go tell that to the victims of Unit 731, the comfort women who were repeatedly raped and the independence fighters who were tortured to death during interrogations. Though the total death toll may not be comparable the cruelty is definitely comparable. That does not make the Japanese any better than the Germans, and it makes the comparison between them fair.

And about the so called voluntary name changing, the Japanese came into Korea with their superior weapons and modern military and with a borg like attitude, conform or die. Just because they weren’t forced to sign up at gun point doesn’t mean it is voluntary, especially when the Japanese were sending out the message that disobedience means death. I’m not a very bold or brave person, I think I would have been first in line to pay to get my name changed at the first “polite” request.

“The Korean people had limited political rights (but better than Choson political rights) and civil rights, far better that Choson civil rights.”

Only those that did not resist had limited political and civil rights, those that resisted or showed resentment were severely punished. Just killing a few Koreans as an example would be enough to put many other Koreans in check. How brave are you? Can you honestly say you wouldn’t be afraid and willingly cooperative to rulers who see no problem in taking lives? Can you honestly say that those who were willingly cooperative were doing it with a joyful freewill?

And notice how “you” used the word “limited” to describe the political and civil rights of Koreans. How can they be called rights if they are limited. Political and civil rights like that, are in truth meaningless.

Many commoners did suffer under the rule of Choseon, and many suffered under Japanese rule. They were both tyrannies, in essence one can not be considered better than the other.

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46 WangKon936 November 11, 2008 at 1:48 pm

redneck,

What are you blabbering about? These are, in many cases, parents of American citizenship, acting on behalf of their kids, who are usually born in America.

When this book is taught in class, many instances these kids of Korean heritage feel they are being discriminated against. It’s proven many times that when a kid feels like he’s being discriminated against, he doesn’t learn. This is why many schools will purposely leave out controversial materials when teaching any grades below upper level HS.

However, going to the flip side, even if this is true, it should be determined community by community because each community is different, etc. Taking a book out of the reading lists of an entire state (particularly one as large as CA) appears excessive to me.

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47 Sperwer November 11, 2008 at 2:50 pm

As for the Korean communists, there were Korean communists in Korea at that time. As soon as Japan surrendered there were Koreans claiming they were communists.

Perhaps more to the point, when the Soviet 25th Army entered Korea it ordered the 2,500 man Korean Volunteer Army that had come up from China, where it fought with Mao’s forces, to stand-down, whereupon they were absorbed into the 25th Army and redeployed. Moreover, the 25th Army itself had plenty of Koreans in it. The notorious Kim Young Sik of Korea WebWeekly even has something floating around the net in which he recalls an incident in which one such Soviet Korean, Kang Sang Ho, who was a lieutenant with the 40th Rifle Division of the 25th Red Army issued an order to open fire on student dissidents, including Kim’s brother, who had broken into the office of Hamhung provincial Communist Party headquarters in March 1946 to protest what they felt was Korean bootlicking towards the Russians. So it’s easily imaginable that the character in the book would have seen Koreans in Soviet or Chinese Communist uniforms who were even more likely to take punitive action against any stray Japanese.

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48 Zonath November 11, 2008 at 4:22 pm

But at same time were they really in their own “country” as much as I am in my own “country”?

Absolutely. Unless you can really argue that since they did not exist in an ethnically-homogenous nation-state (something Korea likes to pretend it is), they were not truly as invested in or a part of those countries in which they lived… But then again, I think that would be a relatively dangerous line of reasoning, especially when discussing the Holocaust.

If Nazis=Germans and Jews=Germans since they are all born in country Germany, then can we say that Germans killed Germans?

Why not? After all, as Sonagi pointed out, Jews weren’t the only Germans who were victimized… After all, the Nazis sent a lot of groups to camps… homosexuals, gypsies, political dissidents, anyone who could be deemed insane or mentally-infirm… Germans killed a shitload of other Germans (and went on to kill people from and occupy a bunch of other countries during WWII…

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49 Jewook November 11, 2008 at 5:01 pm

I personally can’t understand how some of my fellow Koreans are naive enough to think that numbers of Japanese weren’t raped or killed during that period. Many Japanese probably did evacuate in an organized fashion. But to say there weren’t stragglers that were killed or to say that a stray Japanese women would not be raped if she found herself confronting angry Korean men? That would be just plain denial. (Revenge is an inseparable part of human nature.) Yet there are some Koreans are foolish enough to deny human nature. Or go by the simple minded logic that we were victims so we could not do anything bad.

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50 redneck hickboy November 11, 2008 at 9:30 pm

Korean American parent are rushing to protect their children from this horrible mental hammering, eh?

Those kind of American parents are not nearly American enough for me. As is being increasingly proven by the new breed of Asian immigrant, holding a passport hardly evidence that a person gets the basic idea of what it means to be American.

I recently had a discussion with a Korean American asshole who told me in anger that even if a Korean American were elected to the US congress, he or she had to remember that he/she was still Korean and act in the interest of Korea. Needless to say it got hot and an aquaintance that may have become friendship did not.

Many Asian immigrants see a US passport as a commodity, pure and simple. It ranks just above a platinum visa. We see examples again and again.

These are no doubt in the minority, for all the idiots who I can already smell throwing preconceived notions of racism onto my argument.

Memo to Korean pseudo Americans: you can go on looking out for Korea and Koreans full time, and to hell with everyone else, but don’t come looking for us real Americans to like, respect, or accomodate you, and don’t be shocked when we shut you down.

And we will shut you down. Again and again. Suck it up.

American white kids in American schools are faced with the stuff all the Koreans are getting their pink panties twisted over right now for their entire lives. I’ve tried to hammer this point through remarkably dense skulls like that of Wangkon’s. It’s apparently not taking. Maybe a barium swallow will one day allow us to seed ideas in the minds of 30-something, naive children. Until then, it’s struggle, struggle.

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51 eujin November 11, 2008 at 10:07 pm

Sonagi,

“Prior to the rise of the Nazis, Jewish people were integrated into the mainstream of Western European societies. They thought of themselves as French, German, or Dutch.”

Having said that, the idea of a Jewish homeland had been kicking around since at least the turn of the century and guys like Theodor Herzl. While there was somewhat of a split in the European Jewish community before the war as to whether to seek assimilation in Europe or set up their own country, there was not much doubt left by the end of the war. The lessons learned are reflected in many of the present problems in Israel and the fact that a lot of Jews feel they need to have their own country where the power isn’t diluted too much by others.

And there was also a fair bit of migration just before the war really started too. The Nuremburg Laws in 1935 basically stripped a lot of people of their citizenship in Germany. Remember that Anne Frank’s parents mainly spoke German and didn’t speak much Dutch. She probably thought of herself as Dutch, but I don’t know about her parents.

Having said all that, people who don’t know much about the subject should listen to Sonagi. The vast majority of Jews in Europe before the war felt European and very much at home.

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52 eujin November 11, 2008 at 10:59 pm

redneck hickboy,

I think you should take a chill pill. Ernest Rutherford (who won the Nobel Prize in 1908) thought of himself very much as British, despite being born and raised in New Zealand (he left NZ as a young man and basically never looked back). The Prime Minister of New Zealand, Michael Savage, said when declaring war on Germany in 1939,

“With gratitude for the past and confidence in the future we range ourselves without fear beside Britain. Where she goes, we go; where she stands, we stand.”

Even Edmund Hillary was a bit confused in 1953 as to whether he was British or Kiwi. Most Kiwi’s today think of Britain as “just another country in Europe” that happens to speak English and happens to give a lot of them preferential visa treatment. They certainly wouldn’t consider joining a war just because Britain did.

It took the English that founded the Massachusetts Bay Colony roughly 150 years to get the basic idea of what it means to be American. Old allegiances sit deep.

Just give it a bit of time. Good things come to those who wait.

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53 shakuhachi November 12, 2008 at 12:33 am

Eujin, I think that is questionable. In this modern world people are able to maintain ethnic identity and allegiances no matter where they live. The internet offers them a constant connection, something that assimilating minorities in the past never had. Furthermore, some governments actively encourage race consciousness to their emigrant citizens and former citizens, by sponsoring awareness programs and trips to the homeland.

I think that the best that can be hoped for is a tribalization of politics, with one group canceling out the baneful influence of another.

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54 Sonagi November 12, 2008 at 12:48 am

In this modern world people are able to maintain ethnic identity and allegiances no matter where they live. The internet offers them a constant connection, something that assimilating minorities in the past never had.

Assimilating minorities often had a steady stream of newcomers to keep them connected to the homeland. The internet is no match for the power of real world social assimilation through schools and other community institutions. The native-born who espouse a strong affinity for their ancestral homelands usually do so if they feel unaccepted by the society in which they live.

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55 shakuhachi November 12, 2008 at 1:38 am

Sonagi, the US is the best example of it, and the US had an immigration pause of about 50 years, starting 1915, plenty of time to assimilate immigrants. As matters stand these days, there is no guarantee that even a pause could help matters, especially since assimilation is viewed as either cultural domination or even racism in some circles.

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56 NetizenKim November 12, 2008 at 2:37 am

The “immigration pause” that shakuhacky is referring to is his odd euphemism for the period following the Immigration Act of 1924, also known as the National Origins Act, or the Asian Exclusion Act. The purpose of this law was to restrict the inflow of “undesirables”, such as Italians and Eastern Europeans, and to prohibit the immigration of Asian. It was supported by many politicians who believed in eugenics theories and the superiority of Northern Europeans.

Immigration of Asians into the US was not allowed until the passage of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.

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57 NetizenKim November 12, 2008 at 2:53 am

In the late 1800s, the Chinese were viewed as such a threat that there was an entire federal law passed just for them, the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882.

These are the reason why most Korean-American families trace their earliest beginnings in America frequently to the late 60s or early 70s.

It is precisely this kind of history, which is part of AMERICAN history that should be taught to our children, too many of whom are turning out to be idiotic, clueless, white-washed twinkies.

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58 dogbertt November 12, 2008 at 3:56 am

Lies Nutizen Kim Taught Me:

Immigration of Asians into the US was not allowed until the passage of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.

Really? Didn’t you people just celebrate the “Centenary of Korean Immigration” in the U.S.?

In the late 1800s, the Chinese were viewed as such a threat that there was an entire federal law passed just for them, the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882.

These are the reason why most Korean-American families trace their earliest beginnings in America frequently to the late 60s or early 70s.

The real reason, of course, was that successive Korean governments discouraged the emigration of their citizens until the late 1970s, unless it was to serve as laborers in Saudi Arabia or nurses in Germany.

It is precisely this kind of history, which is part of AMERICAN history that should be taught to our children, too many of whom are turning out to be idiotic, clueless, white-washed twinkies.

As if there were something wrong with being “whitewashed”. Let me remind you again, your parents chose the U.S. because it was a well run, “whitewashed” nation, just like Canada, New Zealand, and the other favorite Korean emigration hotspots.

Now, you seem to be encouraging hatred of white people and some sort of AzN PRYd3, which is the type of subversive and divisive element many have warned about.

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59 thekorean November 12, 2008 at 4:26 am

Alright, let’s clear up some air about this “when Korean immigration started” thing…

While the first Korean immigrants arrived the U.S. more than a 100 years ago at Hawaii, large-scale immigration did not happen until late 60s. The most direct reason for the lack of large-scale immigration was Immigration Act of 1924, which sought to maintain the ratio of ethnicities in the U.S. by putting a strict quota on the number of immigrants. This is how that law worked: first, Congress decides the total number of immigrants it would take. Then, for example, if Italians made up 5 percent of the population according to the census, U.S. would only accept Italians up to 5 percent of that total number.

You can clearly see why this would essentially stop Asian immigration — because there were so few Asians in the country, the quota was tiny. This system would not go away until 1965, when the new version of Immigration and Nationality Act took out most of the quota.

So theoretically there were a little bit of Asian immigration prior to 1965, but not anywhere near the number that you see today. On the other hand, Korean government did not discourage emigration of their citizens; it did, however, support exporting laborers and nurses to Germany.

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60 dogbertt November 12, 2008 at 4:40 am

On the other hand, Korean government did not discourage emigration of their citizens;

I disagree: Park Chung-hee limited the amount of foreign currency a Korean emigrant could take out of Korea to a ridiculously low level, which was a de facto curb on Korean emigration, until 1978, when the limit was raised.

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61 NetizenKim November 12, 2008 at 4:57 am

Really? Didn’t you people just celebrate the “Centenary of Korean Immigration” in the U.S.?

What’s your point? That such a celebration proves there were no instances of anti-Asian immigration policies?

Korean laborers were arriving to work in Hawaiian sugar cane plantations during the late 1800s and early 20th century. Hence, a centenary of Korean immigration.

Such discriminatory laws were passed precisely because there were too many undesirables here to begin with.

These are not lies but historical facts on public record. Anybody can verify them.

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62 NetizenKim November 12, 2008 at 5:11 am

I disagree: Park Chung-hee limited the amount of foreign currency a Korean emigrant could take out of Korea to a ridiculously low level, which was a de facto curb on Korean emigration, until 1978, when the limit was raised.

Whatever.

The racially-motivated Exclusionary Immigration Acts of 1924 and 1882 were real. Korea’s national policies does not explain away the effects of discriminatory laws on US immigration in regards to Chinese, other Asians, including Asian Indians, and other nationalities.

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63 abcdefg November 12, 2008 at 5:35 am

I know what redneck hickboy is blabbering about. And he’s wrong.

Of course, we should hope the residents of some nation are working on behalf of that nation and certainly not against it. But I don’t believe that if they have interests in or a will to support any other country they become less patriotic for it. Especially here, about a book. This is not a Dae Han Min Guk vs America issue. Anyone who thinks the humanity of an Asian immigrant in America has to be castrated so that for him no other country (or idea, or ideal, or value other than those that exclusively red, white, and blue) can exist, as if human beings had to be so fucking simple, needs to be brought to his knees and forced to apologize for such – in truth, anti-American- idiocy. In other words, FUCK YOU.

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64 abcdefg November 12, 2008 at 5:42 am

In line with the hickness of redneck hickboy’s views — I suggest we declare all American Jews and Christians a source of profound danger to America. We should no longer tolerate the endangerment of American interests in the Middle East for the sake of Israel. Down with Christianity. You Christians digust me. How dare you have a religion that is about anything other than the U S of fucking A!!!

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65 abcdefg November 12, 2008 at 5:49 am

If I were an Aussie, I’d declare shakuhachi a detriment to Australia. This internerd Japanophile represents a clear and present danger to the Australian race. What’s more, because Australians of Korean ethncity exist, he is a danger in more ways than one. I motion therefore for his immediate deportment, vouchsafed of course by shakuhahci’s own imbecile line of reasoning itself.

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66 eujin November 12, 2008 at 11:22 am

“The native-born who espouse a strong affinity for their ancestral homelands usually do so if they feel unaccepted by the society in which they live.”

Spot on! It’s people like Sonagi who are working hard to realise the kind of outcomes that shakuhachi can only dream of. When I think of the difference between the way I view the world and the way my grandparents viewed the world, it’s amazing. Keep up the good work!

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67 Sonagi November 12, 2008 at 11:33 am

Thanks, Eujin. I see the American dream every day in the eager faces of the children I teach, children whose parents came to this country to provide a better future for their children. When I see all of the children in our school, American and immigrant, white, brown, and black, learn together and play together, I see the first generation of a post-racial America.

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68 Jewook November 12, 2008 at 12:19 pm

shakuhachi

Look at the pictures at this link and tell me again how it is improper to compare how the Germans treated the Jewish against how the Japanese treated Koreans.

http://news.empas.com/show.tsp.....A%CE%B4%EB

It may not be obvious by the photos but experiments were performed on live subjects, including vivisection. And many Koreans were used as guinea pigs also. How nice has the Japanese “administration” been to us.

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69 shakuhachi November 12, 2008 at 3:20 pm

Jewook,

Yes, it is still very much improper. Unit 731 (in China) had a handful of Korean victims (total number of victims estimated 10 000, mostly Chinese) but it had nothing to do with the lives of Koreans living on the Korean peninsula, who would not even have known about Unit 731. Jews in Germany and occupied Europe were rounded up and put in concentration camps.

There was no program targeting Koreans at all. Korea was a backward country made into a colony by a more powerful country. Nothing more, nothing less. And nothing different to any other colony on the planet.

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70 Jewook November 12, 2008 at 8:37 pm

shakuhachi

The logic you seem to be going at is that even though the Japanese devastated the rest of east and southeast Asia, that they were lenient to Korea. That even though they did the most disgusting and hideous things humanly possible (Unit 731, Comfort Women: both victimized Koreans) elsewhere in Asia, that they were reasonable in their treatment of Koreans on the peninsula. Do you expect any sound thinking person to accept that kind of warped logic? If people in the rest of Asia did not register as human beings in the minds of the Japanese, than is it not a logical conclusion that Koreans didn’t register as human beings either? If we were not human beings in their eyes, than living under Japanese “administration” could not be described as something tolerable.

Comparing Germans with the Japanese is really no different than comparing a serial killer that has killed thirty people with a serial killer that has killed five people. They both are equally heinous.

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71 Sperwer November 12, 2008 at 9:23 pm

If people in the rest of Asia did not register as human beings in the minds of the Japanese, than is it not a logical conclusion that Koreans didn’t register as human beings either?

It was much more complicated than that. There actually was a hierarchy of Asians in the Imperial Japanese Empire, and Koreans were in relatively favored second place, just ahead of Manchurians (Manchukuo) and way ahead of Chinese and southeast Asians. By the end of the war, Japan was on the verge of extending full citizenship rights to Koreans – at least formally — albeit as a concession into which it was forced by wartime exigency. A lot – a whole lot – of Koreans, moreover, were willing and even enthusiastic recruits to the status of Imperial Subject, even on a second-class basis, and were more than willing to use their relatively favored status against those further down in the pecking order. If you want to make the (unsupportable) claim that Imperial Japan was no different than Nazi Germany, then you’re also going to have to deal with the fact that an awful lot of Koreans were the moral equivalent of Jewish trustys in the extermination camps.

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72 gbevers November 12, 2008 at 11:27 pm

Jewook,

Koreans were allies with Japan and they supported Japan’s war against China and the United States and her allies. Koreans not only supported Japan’s war materially, they were also in the Japanese military and they guarded and abused allied prisoners of war. Koreans were even convicted of war crimes against Americans and her allies, and many were imprisoned, shot, and hung for those crimes.

Koreans were not the victims they now claim to have been. They were simply allowed to paint themselves as victims after World War II because the United States and her allies wanted to break up the Japanese empire. That was part of the Allied Forces war plan.

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73 gbevers November 12, 2008 at 11:29 pm

Correction: hanged

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74 bumfromkorea November 13, 2008 at 12:31 am

Just so you know, Jewook… what you’re doing is as pointless as giving Ahmadinejad a copy of Elie Wiesel’s Night and arguing with him about the Holocaust. According to gbevers, his personal research and the other research efforts conducted by the ‘respected academia’ (read: people who spend their free time in those black vans in Japan) trumps myriads of firsthand account.

How do you expect to reasonably debate the issue with someone whose logic runs along the lines of:
Sister was taken away by the Japanese soldiers to be a sex slave? Bullshit! This document signed and notarized by the imperial officials at the time says it’s voluntary! Your sister must have been a whore!

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75 WangKon936 November 13, 2008 at 1:27 pm

# 71,

Of course there were many Koreans ready to take up arms for Imperial Japan. It was probably in the 10’s of thousands, if not more!

However, consider how many Romanians, Norwegians, Finns, Ukrainians, Poles, Czechs, Italians, and lord knows how many other Europeans took up arms for the Nazis I’m sure ALL those countries loved being “allies” of the Third Reich.

Let’s not forget Vichy France… I’m sure they loved being nominal allies of the Nazis also, which explains why they took up arms against the Allies in North Africa or after D-Day. Oh wait, that didn’t happen huh? Just like all those pro-Japanese Koreans who insisted on being an appendage to Japan after 1945. Oh wait, that didn’t happen either, huh?

The point of the matter is that most of these Koreans were probably not “enthusiastic,” to say the least, with fighting or cooperating with the Japanese. What choice do you have when you are a conquered nation living in a police state, huh?

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76 WangKon936 November 13, 2008 at 1:59 pm

shakuhachi,

It surprises me that someone who seems as intelligent as you is appearing to make greater logical allowances for books that have serious factual errors simply because it agrees better with your personal viewpoint.

Both Bamboo and Keoko are works of “historical fiction” and both have serious errors in them that, if you were to consider them as near court testimony worthy stories, would put their credibility in doubt. Of course in your world errors in Bamboo are just incidental and even the most unlikeliest scenarios (uniformed Korean communist troops in August 1945, large bamboo groves in the northern tip of Korea, “American” bombers flying overhead and “bombing” her train) you are willing to stretch around your head simply because Yoko’s book fits your world view better. However, because Keoko doesn’t fit your world view, the same errors makes you discount the testimony entirely. Consistency on your side is purely driven by your prejudices, which tells me more about you- shak- and much less about what you may believe in.

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77 redneck hickboy November 13, 2008 at 2:44 pm

abcdefg,

Look, alphabet soup… what I’ve been trying to spell out to the gang here is that it is precisely humanity that needs to be revered and nurtured over ideas of one race, one culture, and the all too typical ‘me against the world’ mindset of the Korean, whether or not that Korean has an American passport. Have you even been following this thread and the original that spawned it, or did you jump in and decide to tell me ‘fuck you’?

Grow up.

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78 wjk, 검은 머리 외국인 November 13, 2008 at 3:29 pm

this is why my suggestion to leave never materialized.

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79 Jewook November 13, 2008 at 4:19 pm

Sperwer, shakuhachi

The fact that Unit 731 and comfort women even existed is enough evidence to claim that the Japanese were as disgusting as the Nazis.

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80 wjk, 검은 머리 외국인 November 13, 2008 at 4:33 pm

Jewook, you opened an OLD can of worms. ‘enough evidence’…

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81 shakuhachi November 13, 2008 at 6:21 pm

shakuhachi,

It surprises me that someone who seems as intelligent as you is appearing to make greater logical allowances for books that have serious factual errors simply because it agrees better with your personal viewpoint.

Both Bamboo and Keoko are works of “historical fiction” and both have serious errors in them that, if you were to consider them as near court testimony worthy stories, would put their credibility in doubt. Of course in your world errors in Bamboo are just incidental and even the most unlikeliest scenarios (uniformed Korean communist troops in August 1945, large bamboo groves in the northern tip of Korea, “American” bombers flying overhead and “bombing” her train) you are willing to stretch around your head simply because Yoko’s book fits your world view better. However, because Keoko doesn’t fit your world view, the same errors makes you discount the testimony entirely. Consistency on your side is purely driven by your prejudices, which tells me more about you- shak- and much less about what you may believe in.

I don’t entirely dismiss Keoko, but it may be that she does not have the entire story. Many Koreans would have thought it beneficial to have complete Japanese names so as to gain advantage or avoid potential discrimination. In any event, Bamboo fictionalizes something that happened -attacks on Japanese people by Koreans after the Japanese surrendered. It is not totally biased against Koreans because the characters are also helped by kindly Koreans who were aware of the danger they were in.

In that sense, problems of perception by the author are not particularly problematic, even when they seem to defy the facts. For example, when her hometown of Chungjin was attacked by bombers she thought they were American. The Japanese in the area were still unaware that the Soviets had invaded, and reported the attack as American. Thus her insistence that it was American bombers. Uniformed Koreans were in Korea, as part of foreign communist armies, even if the ROC and DPRK did not yet exist. Also, as I pointed out, a red armband could make a communist soldier as mens clothes at the time often resembled a uniform. In any event, the attacks against Japanese are well known, and this book is a fictionalized version of it.

Keoko’s story and the problem with it is more fundamental. The author takes mistaken historical interpretation, like the “forced” name changing, and builds a story around it. First, the author mistakenly believes that both the first and last name needed to be changed. In fact, only the last name needed to be changed. Some 80% of Korean people changed their names. 20% did not register a new name, and had their Korean clan names registered automatically. Korean wives of Korean men that did not register were given their husbands Korean clan name (the only time that names were forcibly changed!). The people that did not take a Japanese name continued to live their lives without negative consequences. The people of Taiwan had the option of taking a Japanese name as well. Very few (less than 5% I think) ever bothered. Why? It is something that bears thinking about.

There were other things, stuff which that struck as false. One of the important parts of the book shows the Koreans being angered by a newspapers saying that “Kitei Son” had won an Olympic event. They were angry, it said, because his name was “Japanese”. This is nonsense for a few reasons.

1. Kitei Son is the way Kee-Chung Sohn is pronounced in Japanese kanji.

2. Newspapers in Korea at the time were a mixture of Chinese characters and Hangul. The name would have been written in Chinese characters, with Hangul representing the Korean pronunciation. If there was Hangul accompanying the name, it would be the Korean pronunciation, not the Japanese.

3. Kitei Son doesn’t even sound Japanese. First off, Son (or Sohn, whatever way you want to write EXACTLY the same pronunciation) is not a Japanese family name. Second, Kitei is about as unusual name as you can get. I doubt that you would find even a 100 individuals with that name in Japan. Even then, they probably have an unusual background. Kitei Son isn’t a victim of “forced name changing”. Kitei Son is his name in the pronunciation of the national language of the country he was representing at the Olympics. Koreans at the time would have known this.

The example of Kitei Sohn is supposed to support the idea that her family had been forced to take on Japanese names, both family names and given names, noting that “the Japanese had renamed people before”.

These are not small issues, but ones that are at the core of the story. I am willing to look at testimony but it has to be measured against the facts, and Keoko is found wanting, in my opinion. But as I said before, I would not mind if it were read in some schools, “balanced” by another book or not.

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82 Sperwer November 13, 2008 at 7:20 pm

Jewook:

The atrocities perpetrated by Unit 731 and the impressment of Korean women and girls into the Comfort Corps undeniably and certainly were as disgusting, and more to the point, as ethically reprehensible as some of the atrocities committed by the Nazis. One of my uncles suffered (and survived, albeit badly damaged physically and mentally) similar medical experimentation as a POW in Germany. Nevertheless, Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany are distinguishable, systemically, and the (intellectually indefensible) failure to do so is, like the impertinent “Johnny did it too” bleating exemplified by WangKon’s 375, one of the bits of rhetorical posturing that “enables” (in the pyscho-babble sense) the pewling, resentiment</italic) driven, and appallingly unworthy Korean cult of its national victimization.

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83 Sperwer November 13, 2008 at 7:51 pm

In that sense, problems of perception by the author are not particularly problematic, even when they seem to defy the facts. For example, when her hometown of Chungjin was attacked by bombers she thought they were American. The Japanese in the area were still unaware that the Soviets had invaded, and reported the attack as American. Thus her insistence that it was American bombers. Uniformed Koreans were in Korea, as part of foreign communist armies, even if the ROC and DPRK did not yet exist.

I agree that the putative inaccuracies in the story are not problematic. Most – in fact all, probably – are not inaccuracies at all, but are only imagined to be such by Koreans incapable of any but a black/white view of the events of the colonial period and its immediate aftermath. The presence of Korean soldiers in Communist uniforms – which is a well-documented fact, as I adverted to in #47 – is one good example.

Another is the Bomber question. I disagree though with the plausibility of the idea of Japanese in the Chungjin vicinity not being aware of the Soviet invasion and thus mistaking Soviet planes for American ones. Given the ferocity of the fighting in Manchuria, where among other setbacks, the Japanese lost the greatest total one battle casualties of the entire war at the hands of the Soviets, it’s unimaginable that the Japanese in the north of Korea had any doubt about who was coming to occupy the north.

On the other hand, it is imaginable that they actually did see an American bomber, since the US did run air missions over Korea — albeit ones that didn’t drop bombs but bomb-like canisters of leaflets in an effort to inform Koreans about what was going on.

So what’s really interesting here is not Shakuhachi’s alleged ability to morph his head around a story that supposedly agrees with his world view, notwithstanding the purported unlikelihood of its scenarios, but the ignorance his critic displays of the actual facts that sustain the verisimilitude of the book and the bias that enables him to persist in attacking its verisimilitude despite both that ignorance and even the facts being made known to him.

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84 Sperwer November 13, 2008 at 8:35 pm

Jewook, you opened an OLD can of worms. ‘enough evidence’…

Ah, yes, Tangun forbid that the facts should ever be permitted to interfere with Korean kibun.

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85 The Goat November 13, 2008 at 9:08 pm

Interesting. The books are looked at as historical fiction with inaccuracies yet the first hand accounts are not scrutinized but merely accepted as fact.

Are the books themselves not first hand accounts put on paper?

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86 Jewook November 13, 2008 at 9:52 pm

Sperwer

“Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany are distinguishable, systemically.”

They may be systematically different, but aren’t the results basically the same. Many innocent people were tortured and killed. Does it matter that Japan’s system was slightly less severe than the German’s? I don’t see what use it does to point out that they were systematically different. It doesn’t make it less of a crime.

Nor does the fact that the Japanese were civil to Koreans who conformed seem to matter when you consider how the people who resisted were treated, which was definitely not civil. The numbers of either group don’t matter.

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87 Sperwer November 14, 2008 at 10:50 am

Jewook:

When you say “It doesn’t make it less of a crime”, what is the referent of the second “it”?

If “it” refers to, say, the individual incidents of torture and murder perperated by Unit 731 and those commited by the SS Einsatzgruppen, yes those indeed were all “cimes”, and crimes, moreover, of commensurable degree and deserving of commensurable condemnation and punishment.

On the other hand, Imperial Japan, unlike Nazi Germany, did not embark on an officially state-sanctionedsystematic program of physical extermination of disfavored groups defined in terms of race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation or other markers of “difference” as a matter of fundamental state policy(which is not to say that there weren’t proponents of such in Imperial Japan or that it didn’t practice other objectionable forms of systematic discrimination).

The intended results, and the chosen means, thus in fact were not the same; and trying to conflate the two wholesale on the basis of the comparability of some of the individual crimes they dealt out at the retail level does not do justice to the victims and criminals of Imperial Japan, but is simply both an affront to the victims of the Nazis and an unwarranted and unacceptable diminution of the enormity of Nazi genocide and the culpability of its formulators and agents.

It also raises the question of the resons why so many Koreans are so anxious and determined to insist on the equivalence of Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany in the face of the facts and the sort of carefully reasoned discrimination between different kinds and degrees of “crime”, and the consequentt assignment of carefully proportioned punishments, that is the hallmark of justice.

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88 thekorean November 14, 2008 at 11:42 am

Sperwer,

I always compared Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan as Timothy McVeigh and Charles Manson. McVeigh killed more in a systematic way, but Manson was arguably more depraved, because he tortured his numerous victims (but not as many as McVeigh’s.)

My point here is, exactly what do you hope to win by arguing that Imperial Japan was not Nazi Germany? Even if people accept that it was not, Imperial Japan still was a despicable thing. You are essentially arguing, “sure, I killed that woman, but at least I didn’t rape her before she died!” How does the label of “second most despicable empire during WWII” help you, or Japan, in any sort of way?

I really don’t know the benefit of arguing that point, but I can plainly see the harms of it. By continuing to split hairs that way, it diminishes Japan’s numerous expressions of apologies and contrition.

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89 Jewook November 14, 2008 at 5:30 pm

Sperwer

“It also raises the question of the reasons why so many Koreans are so anxious and determined to insist on the equivalence of Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany.”

There are two main reasons why I keep on insisting on equating the Japanese with the Germans.

One: The results of the activities of both people are essentially the same; innocent people were tortured and killed (including the Korean peninsula). The results speak much louder than the ‘process or system or policies’ that were implemented which produced such deplorable results. It is frustrating when it seems you are unable to see that.

Two: The fact that many Japanese keep on insisting that Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany are different. Every time I hear that I can feel a little bit of anger boiling inside me because it sounds like you are saying we weren’t that bad so stop being so unreasonably angry at us. This is the most prominent reason I reiterate the insistence that both of them are equally wrong. And I would not reiterate that claim so often if I didn’t hear the opposite claim being made by the Japanese, which is much too often.

And then some go so far as to say that the Japanese helped Koreans become industrialized. This makes the anger inside me completely boil over because Koreans never asked for that kind of “HELP!” in the first place. It makes many Koreans furiously angry.

Like the Korean says: “I really don’t know the benefit of arguing that point, but I can plainly see the harms of it. By continuing to split hairs that way, it diminishes Japan’s numerous expressions of apologies and contrition.” The only outcome such claims can instigate is making Koreans more angry and making Koreans more hateful.

Nothing can take back what the Japanese have done to Koreans. We know that very well. But instead of making claims like that, if more Japanese would just own up to their wrong doings and show sincere remorse. If you should say you are genuinely sorry for what you did and nothing more, because saying anything else just sounds like an excuse. That would make Koreans feel more better and a lot less angry and hateful.

I know that when ever I hear a Japanese person say something similar to, “I am sorry for what my people did to your people in the past,” I feel all warm inside. It makes me think that with an attitude like that we can definitely get along.

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90 earth_visitor November 14, 2008 at 9:36 pm

Jewook,

what kind of attitude is then needed so “we can get along”, both from the Korean and Japanese side?

an attitude of ‘you owe me an apology’ will get
you nowhere, other than that people can indulge themselves in a feeling of moral superiority.

with all respect to the people with direct experience of the occupation era,
do you seriously expect a Japanese of the after war generations do meet you with a special ‘attitude’,
i think that would be rather inappropriate.

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91 Sperwer November 16, 2008 at 4:38 pm

The Korean & Jewook

My point here is, exactly what do you hope to win by arguing that Imperial Japan was not Nazi Germany?

My point is what, exactly, do you (and Korea) hopw to win by ignoring or obscuring the most basic facts and arguing that Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were “essentially” the same (as Jewook says in his #89).

I would think that given the place of “essentializing” ideology in some of the Japanese apologia for colonization of Korea (e.g., the cruder sort of degraded “popular” social darwinist that insisted that Koreans were genetically inferior to Japanse and Westerners), thoughtful Koreans would have a visceral revulsion for that sort of thinking in general, i.e., not just of the particular kind exemplified in the foregoing example, but across the board. That mode of discourse IS harmful.

I think Jewook inadvertently provides a hint at the answer when he describes his reaction to claims tha Japan helped Korea to industrialize. Putting aside the issue whether such industrialization justified Japan’s colonization of Korea, it’s an established fact that Japan not only helped Korea industrialize, it in fact industrialized (and modernized) Korea. Although not a “fact”, it’s also well-established argument that, notwithstanding the so-called “sprouts of capitalism”, Korea would not have been able to industrialize without massive outside intervention of some sort; the best and most comprehensive account of the economic side of this argument is given in Chung Young-lob’s Korea Under Siege 1876-1945, in which he demonstrates that Korea had neither the accumulated capital or the capacity to accumulate capital or the necessary profusion and concentration of technical skill sets for economic take-off). Politically, too, it’s quite obvious from even a cursory acquaitance with the hisotry of late 19th century Koreathat Korea was unable to generate any kind of sustainable consensus in favor of modernization; (of course, the competition of various foreign parties for influence on the peninsula in the last third of the century complicated matters (to say the least) but, again, even a quick read indicates that without the spur of such foreign competition, little if any meaningful change would have occurred – to beleive otherwise is – given the historical record – the most pathetic kind of wishful thinking.)

Until Koreans are willing to acknowledge the complexity of the situation I think it unlikely that either Japanese (or more or less disninterested third parties) are likely to find Korean demnds for apologies any more persuasive than most Koreans seem to regard the apologies tha have been issued to date.

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92 Jewook November 17, 2008 at 3:50 pm

earth_visitor

I wasn’t indulging on moral superiority when claiming for an apology. (We all know no group of peoples can claim moral superiority over another group, because any human being has the same potential to do wrong as the next. If you look back in history Koreans have done a fair share of wrong doings, some of it done on to our own.) I was speaking in terms of morality, if you have committed a wrong you should feel guilty and own up to it.

Also the attitude I was talking about, is that many Japanese of today should at the least recognize and admit that wrong doings were done by their people ‘before them’ (I am emphasizing that it was ‘before them’) and feel apologetical about that. (Even though the extent of such wrong doings are not agreed upon.) I’m not saying they should feel direct remorse or that they are directly responsible, that would be stupid because after war generation Japanese did not perpetrate anything, they are not responsible for the sins of an earlier generation. Also since after war generation Koreans did not experience anything first hand, the only thing we should expect is that the Japanese recognize that wrong doings were done by their earlier generation and express regret about that. This is what I meant when I said the Japanese should own up. Most of us just want recognition of the past.

As far as relations go between present day Korea and Japan. I believe Koreans are just as responsible as the Japanese. I am sure there were times when some emotional and ill willed Koreans slapped away the hand of friendship given out by some Japanese. Since we are geographic neighbors we should both look towards the future and we should both take measures to get along.

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93 earth_visitor November 22, 2008 at 2:48 am

Jewook

encouraging post!

real reconciliation can only take place if both parties take responsibility in this (probably for many people painful) process.

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94 taekwonV February 25, 2009 at 8:22 am

Interesting post. I’ve begun reading Bamboo, and as suggested by its author in the 2nd edition’s intro, I’ve also purchased When My Name was Keoko & Year of Impossible Goodbyes for balance.

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