I hate projects like this:
The state-run Seoul National University (SNU) said it will launch a project to nurture a Nobel laureate from the school.
In a speech to celebrate the school’s 62nd anniversary, SNU President Lee Jang-moo said university members should seek to win the award as neighboring countries Japan and China have already seen many Nobel Prize laureates. “If our faculty, alumni and supporters closely network and put their hands together for the goal, I’m confident that SNU faculty and graduates can attain the award, which all Korean people are dreaming of,” Lee said.
And here I was thinking the point of the Nobel Prize — aside from thumbing its nose at the Bush administration, apparently — was to honor outstanding work, not fulfill nationalist wet dreams. You’d have thought the Dr. Frankenhwang (thanks, Joshua) fiasco would have taught SNU something.
Nope, definitely not doing it for love of the game.
Anyway, continuing with the Korea Times piece:
Lee requested SNU members to design a long-term master plan and give full support to it. He also stressed three words, “openness” to accept foreign culture and talent; “flexibility,” for each department to cooperate and change the formation of its organization; and “excellence” in order to solve problems facing mankind.
Well, at least those problems facing mankind in which we have the most chance of scoring a Nobel, anyway.
And yes, I, too, dear readers, nearly cracked a rib reading the terms “openess” and “flexibility” used in the same paragraph with “SNU.” But while we’re on the topic of SNU accepting foreign culture and talent, the Korea Times — as did its sister paper, the Hanguk Ilbo — ran a story a couple of days ago about an American professor quitting SNU last month without giving prior notice. Or, in the parlance of the ESL crowd, doing a runner.
The Kookmin Ilbo, however, notes that part of the problem is that Korean universities focus only on bringing professors to Korea; support for foreign staff after they’ve arrived is lacking. The paper noted the following issues:
Family: Most foreign profs want to bring their families over, so they ask the school to help them pay to send their kids to foreign school. Many schools can’t affort this, and even if they can, the families find it difficult to adjust to Korea’s closed society.
Language: Most school notices are written in Korean. Moreover, to apply for research grants in Korea, you often have to apply in Korean.
Not mentioned in the piece — but dealt with at length in a 2007 piece in SISA Journal — is that foreign professors are often treated like hagwon instructors and ignored even within their own departments.
90 Comments
I agree with all the points mentioned about foreign professors in Korea. Not good to ‘do a runner’ of course, but Korean universities lack a long range plan for including foreigners. With the english craze in Korea, you’d think it would be simple common sense to provide incentives for fluent English speaking kids of foreign Professors and ESL teachers to study in English in Korea with Korean kids. Yet none of the Korean universities, nor the Korean government, has done anything to take advantage of the free resource of fluent english speaking foreign kids. What better way for Korean children to learn English than from making friends and playing with their foreign peers? They should provide free international school tuition to fluent english speaking foreign kids (with foreign parents) to study together with the English as a second language Korean children.
Well, two things:
a) I should have said it above, but pulling a runner is a highly unprofessional thing to do, especially for a professor;
b) concerning foreign schools, I can sort of understand how universities might balk at paying for foreign kiddies to attend foreign schools — those places aren’t cheap, and it would raise the question of fairness with the local staff. And perhaps I might differ with many, but I’m also of the opinion that living abroad is a great opportunity for the kids to learn a foreign language and culture by attending local schools.
Do get back to us on that one when you are faced with the prospect of putting your kid into a Korean school.
Maureen Dowd has a timely op-ed column per SNU’s Nobel-envy-itis http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10.....5dowd.html
Robert, I really wonder how you would feel about international education if you had your own kids. Most of us from western countries would like for our own kids to have the option of a future in our home countries if they so desire. Particularly for a child who is half Korean, half Western, they’ll have many more opportunities in a multi-racial society. So, English education is really crucial for their future. During my time in Seoul I’ve run into a few-mixed race ‘Korean’ adults, probably the abandoned children of American GIs, and their life is usually pretty tough. While I got used to it, it’s kind of a bother having Korean kids in public constantly point out that I’m a foreigner, and I would hate for a foreign kid to have to put up with that, and never be able to be accepted as an individual, instead always have his/her ‘other’ status always reinforced.
Basically, the career opportunities for foreigners is fairly limited in Korea - so western kids really need to have the option of a future in their home countries. A foreign language is a great skill, and something they can pick up interacting with Koreans in lots of other ways, but education in English is absolutely crucial for the rest of an ex-pat kids life.
It’s rather sad that they felt the need to package their new research program in such a way in order to impress the public.
“foreign professors are often treated like hagwon instructors and ignored even within their own departments”
Sad but true.
The idea of anyone “doing a runner” away from SNU is probably a real shock to Koreans. Who could imagine someone “doing a runner” from the job of lifetime at Harvard? Koreans just don’t seem to understand that the higher social status and respect attached to working for top Korean Universities doesn’t extend to foreigners, who outside of the classroom are considered by most Koreans to be hagwon instructors. Korean universities are also competing with foreign universities when they try to hire a foreign professor, and have to provide contracts that are globally competitive, and which compensate for working in an alien environment at a university without much reputation back in the professor’s home country. So, naturally the terms of the foreigner’s contract are going to be better than those of his/her Korean colleagues, and you end up with resentful colleagues.
Finally we get to a subject I actually know something about.
We have a simple system for the Nobel Prize in my group. Whoever is from the same country as the person who wins takes everyone else in the group out for dinner. It’s ALL about the nationalistic wet dreams ;-). Last week the Japanese guys took us all out. If we’re taking bets on when the Koreans will be paying here are some tips.
Jihn E Kim (SNU) has an excellent chance if the axion is discovered. He’s currently putting together a team to find it and talk like this from the President of SNU will no doubt help.
Kim Sun Kee (SNU) currently has the world’s most sensitive spin-independent detector of dark matter (KIMS), so if he’s lucky, and finds dark matter, he’s going to get it.
Soo-Bong Kim (SNU) has an outside chance if the RENO experiment sees CP violation in neutrino oscillations.
Benjamin Lee, who was initially at SNU before transferring to the US, and became head of theory at Fermilab, probably had a shot if he hadn’t died in a car accident. His work on the renormalizability of Yang-Mills basically convinced everyone that Veltman and t’Hooft’s work was correct, for which they won the Nobel Prize.
If people like Roboseyo are looking for women to inspire the kids, there’s Young-kee Kim who was at Korea University and is now deputy director of Fermilab (the US Centre of Excellence).
On a side note, I’m not sure that China has that much of a better record than Korea. There are a lot of Chinese-Americans that have won, but it’s hard to point to a list even as long as the above of China-based physicists who have a shot going forward.
What’s all the fuss over? All it takes is $500 million, guys.
There’s somebody else who needs to be taken out to dinner.
“Glowing Gene’s Discoverer Left Out Of Nobel Prize”
http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....d=95545761
If you have ungrateful children, put them in Korean schools. They will come to appreciate everything they’ve ever taken for granted — like not being punished in front of other students for accidentally crapping their pants.
Just like the foreign hagwon teachers, the foreign professors have to fight against the perception that they must be working in Korea because they couldn’t make it anywhere else. Why else, the Korean professors think, would they be working in our shitty school?
Any Korean that has ever made a decision to choose a lower-ranking school/workplace over a higher-ranking one has to constantly explain his reasons for doing so. This is to no avail of course — people just assume you’re lying about having had the “better” option. After all, who in their right mind would intentionally choose to be lower in the pecking order of life? If there were people like that, how would we know who to treat condescendingly? Now THAT would be a threat to social fabric.
“Glowing Gene’s Discoverer Left Out Of Nobel Prize”
Douglas Prasher’s story is sad.
timmy- I have to agree with you. I prefer teaching in a rural school; the air is cleaner, the hiking trails are closer, my dogs get a lot of variety in their daily walks, I know the butcher, baker, stationary store owner, the old guys who sit outside the Mart. If my dogs got loose, someone would catch them and bring them back. The parents are more supportive and appreciative, the students are very friendly and the administration forgives me many of my “foreign ways”.
Inevitably, when some people find out my educational and teaching background ( I am certainly no Prasher ;), in all good faith and intention they try to inform me that I would have no trouble moving quickly up the educational “food chain”. They are confounded by my lack of inclination to do so, as though I don’t understand what it is they are saying.
Their confusion worsens sometimes when I answer, “But I am happy enough where I am now. Lets go for a long walk and take a few pictures shall we?”
Korea already has the model master plan - the old fashioned one employed by DJ - buy it.
Minjok Sagwan already has plinths in place for the busts of its alumni who will one day many Nobel Prizes - there are, I think, seven or eights plinths in place with Nobel Prize inscribed.
Concerning the education of the children of foreign and Korean professors, couldn’t Korea’s universities create English-language, mini-schools on their campuses for the children of their staff? It could be a kind of group homeschooling, with interested professors coordinating and sharing the teaching burden.
Many of the Korean professors at my university speak fluent English, so would it really be that difficult for a professor of, say Mathematics, to teach math to a group of four or five third-graders? Even without classrooms, my office and the offices of the other professors at my school are easily big enough to accommodate six to eight student desks. My office even has a sink in it. After a 45-minute lecture in one office, the kids could go to their next class in the office of another professor in the program.
I cannot afford to pay the expensive tuition and fees at the foreign schools in Korea and would gladly volunteer to be a part of such a program if my 9-year-old son were in it. Many other professors might feel the same way, especially since many teach only ten hours or less a week, anyway. At the end of the day, the professors and their kids can go home together. Imagine having a 1-to-4 or 1-to-6 teacher-student ratio.
Could such a program work in Korea?
By the way, I am hoping to win the Nobel Peace Prize for my work on the Dokdo/Takeshima dispute.
At my school the enlightened powers of admin built a 4 th story apt for foreign families with no elevator and an open stairwell. The stairwell entrance on the third floor is especially interesting. In the winter it ices up and one bad step – whoosh right off the stairwell – your dead or seriously f%^d-up. 5 years later and no family lives there. The apartments have never been used as planned. Waste of money.
Anyways it is always the teacher’s fault in these stories. Most teachers I know in Korea take the position of locking their hands around their ankles when it comes to standing up for their rights. Teachers need to get educated first –
1. Read the Labor Standards Act
2. Read the Private School Act
3. Read the provisions as outlined in the Korean Teachers Pension Foundation (if you are a member)
4. Join the Korea Federation Teachers Association (10.00 a month is not bad for free legal help when /if you need it)
PS> (My apologies to anyone who recognizes me. I don’t really mean you all are a bunch of pushovers.)
That Korean administrators don’t know what a laughing stock this will make them (even as the Prez of Yale is or just was in Korea to give pep talks) says it all about the ‘top university’ in Korea.
As for the running prof, my heart bleeds for him for what he probably endured before dashing.
I’m reminded of a time when a bunch of folks I knew (I’d say about 15) were summarily let go, with 2 weeks or so notice, by Sogang University, that august, Jesuit institution. The good Catholics cleaned house with zero warning and hired young, fresh, green ones for real, real cheap.
Yes, let’s talk about the sin of dashing on Korean universities.
@ #2,
When people run, they run for a reason. (Hogwon teachers usually have a bucket or two full of reasons. Quite often accompanied by an outrageous tale, or perhaps an opera’s worth of woe, ridiculousness, or insanity)
For a bona fide PHD, to run from SNU, there must have been one, or several, damn good reasons. Kind of judgmental, isn’t it, to call this midnight run unprofessional without knowing why?
SNU : Hub of Nobel Prizes ?
While SNU and the Korean higher educational and research system does indeed have some top-notch researchers putting out excellent work, this “gaming” of the Nobel for nationalistic purposes smacks of Hub-ism.
Billy,
Apparently it isn’t too judgmental if you’re a Korean journalist. Love the spin on the story, the whole quick and mindless leap from ’she quit’ to ‘good help is hard to find’.
I’ll bet that’s what plantation owners said right after the civil war.
Did I read this correctly or did they get the body part(s) wrong? Usually, when westerners want to get something right, they put their “heads together,” not their hands!
“If our faculty, alumni and supporters closely network and put their hands together for the goal, I’m confident that SNU faculty and graduates can attain the award, which all Korean people are dreaming of,” Lee said.
If they continue to resist putting their heads together they won’t get far. Next time they should try putting their butts together!
Amen Redneck.
Korea’s media is truly awesome at protecting its modern national mythology.
1. Doctors are always right.
2. Soju is not adverse to your health.
3. SKY schools can do no wrong.
4. Foreigners bring AIDS and Drugs and bags of bad times to our land.
etc, etc.
On a related note, there was an article in the Korea Herald a while back, written by a Korean Professor. Apparently it was asking why all modern Korean heroes had to be exceptional people who had overcome impossible odds, instead of normal, ordinary people who just went out and did something great. I’m still looking for that article. If anyone sees, it, I’d greatly appreciate a link….
Let’s all put our hands together and sing, forget our heads as long as we have peace by the river…
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=.....re=related
I worked for three Korean universities, moving upward by rank until I ended at a SKY university. The SKY university was the worst experience of the three, and I am not in the least surprised that the SNU lady did a runner. The basic attitude SKY management has towards foreigners is this: you should be so grateful and so happy to be working at such a great university that you should expect no more than your monthly paycheck, and foreigners get treated accordingly. That’s the management. My colleagues for their part treated me in the same manner that they treated foreign PhD students—never mind that I had more experience and accomplishments than quite many of them. And the lower levels were not to be left out either: I lived in an apartment rented or owned by SKY university, and once a secretary had to come there to deliver an urgent package from DHL. I had my shoes on. She insisted that I take them off because that is how it works in Korea. The secretary!
Those quick sketches of the three levels should give an fair idea of what my working days and conditions were. I did what any normal person would do in such circumstances: I voted with my feet.
Last night, in the wake of the SNU-runner article, I got email from a colleague at a SKY university. He has been very shabbily treated states that as soon as he gets another job elsewhere, he is off in a flash. Unprofessional? Perhaps. Why should an employee who gets treated like s**t be expected to observe things like contractual obligations to give notice, especially when such treatement bythe employer has included reneging on contractually agreed matters?
How could a “professional” do a runner at SNU, don’t you know about Cronyism in S. Korea for cryin out loud?
All teachers in S. Korea are “professionals,” if they have 4 year degrees. If you’re going by S. Korean standards, then they aren’t and NEVER will be? What makes any “Professor” at SNU more of a “professional” than anyone else, just because they know someone?
People quit jobs everyday of the week, get used to it.
How does someone get a job at SNU in the first place? WAYGOOKINS here, use cronyism as much as Koreans so don’t be surprised when it doesn’t work out. Promises are made and aren’t kept, even “professionals” who know someone get treated unfairly, why should they stay when that happens?
A question for SNU President Lee Jang-moo:
In 2007, in the 6 Nobel Prize categories, who were the 12 recipients, which countries were they from, and which institutions were they affiliated with?
Okay, well that was way back in…well, last year…so let’s make it a little easier. How about the same questions for this year’s recipients?
A few points to add:
1. Extremely accomplished individuals (and sometimes organizations) win Nobel prizes; nations don’t.
2. If you look at the Nobel Foundation website (nobelprize.org), you’ll find interesting lists of winners broken down by category and affiliated institution; you’ll find interesting facts concerning the winners. You will not find a list of winners sorted by country. (Read into that what you will, but I think the Foundation may be underscoring that this isn’t a nationalist pissing contest.)
3. The Foundation does provide a list of the winners sorted by the institutions they are affiliated with. Alphabetically, without regard to national grouping.
4. SNU is no different than many other organizations (businesses, government entities, massage parlors called “Dokdo”, etc.) that try to shrewdly prey on nationalist programming. Except, they’re just better at it.
5. Hwang was SNU and SNU was Korea and Korea was Hwang and we were all going to win the Nobel prize together until, at the end of the day, Hwang was a fraud, in which case he was no longer SNU and no longer Korea, but simply Hwang. (Except for those who, a long, long time after the fact, organized a political party around him, fielded candidates, and continue to this day to insist that he will one day be vindicated, win the Nobel prize, and bring glory to all.)
6. Interestingly, this time last year, Le Clezio (who won for literature this year) was a visiting prof. at Ewha. Had reporters camped outside his door in Seoul in case he won. Asked if he knew reporters were waiting for him, he laughed. “I was out that day, riding the subway.” (Joongang Ilbo 2008.1.2)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com.....id=2884578
(26.) Extremely accomplished individuals… win Nobel prizes; nations don’t.
Not in Korea.
When somebody from the Collective does good, everyone gets 30-seconds to feel good about being born Korean. Then they go back to the reality that is their life.
I have to disagree with ziffel.
There’s nothing wrong with SNU aspiring to be one of the top universities in the world. It makes a lot of sense for them to focus on a small number of research groups and try to make a name for themselves by winning a prize or two. This will raise the profile of Korean academia no end and greatly reduce the number of “why did you come to Korea - you must be a loser” type questions.
The way these things work, nationalism is unfortunately built into the system. Most scientific grants are awarded by national science foundations. A lot of them weigh the benefits of the research they fund to their countries very highly. A lot of grant proposals require you to explain what the benefits of the research will be to the country funding it. This is true outside of Korea just as much as in Korea. While this diminishes doing it just “for the love of the game”, the people who fund the research (the taxpayers usually) have a right to know what they will get out of the research.
A lot of blue sky research, the type that wins Nobel Prizes, doesn’t have much benefit other than raising national profiles or cementing reputations. But this drives a lot of other things like donations and funding for the universities, attracting quality staff, attracting quality students, getting more kids excited about science and so on, supporting more of the research that does lead to patents and jobs being created.
Since most of these things are done on a national level, the funding agencies, the taxpayers, the state-owned universities, the ministries of education, the education policies, there’s always going to be an element of “nationalism” involved.
Since you ask, look at the number of people born in European but working in the US who won prizes last year. Look at the huge number of European-Americans or Asian-Americans that have won over the years. Don’t tell me there isn’t nationalism involved and don’t tell me that it isn’t reasonable for Korea to try to grab a piece of the action.
I’m not saying that there haven’t been a lot of false starts and grand plans gone awry in Korea. But the country is at a level now where one can expect to see a few truly world-class research groups and centres. The types of places that can attract the best post-docs and the best graduate students in the world, and not just to learn the gayageum or research Dokdo.
if the govt sets aside tax money to get a man on the moon, they will get a man on the moon.
if they want a man to win the Nobel prize, they will get that done, too.
If Hwang Woosuk didn’t embellish his findings and use unethical ways to get from A to B, I think he might have had a decent chance.
Nobel Peace Prize is a political prize.
Al Gore won it, too.
He hardly saves any energy. He’s just pretty good at telling other people to save energy. World’s been giving a lot of credit to people who bad mouth George W. Bush. Michael Moore won at Cannes, I believe. I never saw it. Will Oliver Stone win an oscar for “W.”? Only time will tell.
Japan is at least 20 years ahead of South Korea in a lot of things.
I noticed that the entire batch of sevoflurane is “Made In Japan.”
would it have made any difference if all the corp and tax money didn’t go to benefit Park Junghee, Jun Doohwan, Roh Taewoo, Kim Yongsam, Kim Daejung, Noh Moohyun?
well, one thing’s clear. A lot of corp and tax money in Mexico and the Phillipines went to their honchos. Both countries are set back 20 some years due to it.
They say Lt. Okamoto, Jun, and Roh were good guys because
“they stole, but they left enough for Korea to grow.”
WTF?
2 posts in a row that I read over on Brian’s blog at 10am? Why do I even bother bookmarking both? Y’all are getting scooped.
1. Extremely accomplished individuals (and sometimes organizations) win Nobel prizes; nations don’t.
SNU president Lee is talking about SNU winning it, not Korea. The reporter makes it sound like he compared Japan and China have won so many but he talks about making SNU a winner, not Korea. Koreans would be proud he says but this is for the glory of his uni not the country.
Dr. No’s whiney post (#25) did not convince me that he is being treated “like s**t” at SKY University. Look at the silly examples he gave of the abuses he is suffering.
What do foreigner professors expect from their universities in Korea that is not in the contracts they sign? Praise? If you want recognition or praise, then you have to earn it, and my experience, expect for my Dokdo experience, tells me that Korean universities and professors do recognize the achievements and contributions of foreign professors.
I think the main problem with foreign professors in Korea is their own self-importance.
Correction: “except for my Dokdo experience…”
Also, “foreign professors”
The main problem is what to do with their kids. If the universities fail to address the problem than gbevers, your ‘home schooling’ idea is worth a shot, although it probably would only work on a small scale, and maybe only for elementary or middle school grades, where subjects aren’t that specialized. In return for their children’s education, each foreign family would have to provide a certain number of teaching hours per week. Might also be a good way for parents to get to know each other. Go for it.
SNU president Lee seems to be the grand nephew of Lee wanyong.
discuss,
I love the “Inflammatory remark, enter, enter, Discuss.” formula. Not that I know who 이완영 is, but still.
former Seoul city mayor and now ROK President Lee Myungbak tried to give the Koreans the advantage that Indians and Nigerians have had. English lecture based learning in K-12.
soundly defeated and ridiculed by both Koreans in Korea and foreigners in Korea.
it’s actually a great idea that should be pushed again.
One thing that limits the Japanese intel is English. This admitted by two separate individuals, a Japanese PhD and a Japanese doctor in the US, both immigrants.
Evidently, it limits the Korean intel, too.
it’s KrZ’s formula.
Remember the one you used about a certain group and the economic bail out?
You never apologized for that, but somehow got off the hook.
and if you want to apologize, shouldn’t you apologize to wjk, for impersonating wjk?
That post was copypasta. Relax, the internets are not serious business.
Want it, then take it.
Korean nationalism revels in the accomplishments of any Korean. Good for you.
Then you have to suffer the condemnation, as a nation, for any of the wrong doings of any individual Korean.
You got to lick it, before you stick it.
Not happy with that idea? Choose a side of the fence then. Me, you, us !
Want it all ways? Then bend over.
Toshihide Maskawa doesn’t have a passport and has never been abroad because he doesn’t like speaking English. Sounds like this limited his intel. Still gets a Nobel Prize though.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20.....pleoffbeat
Those qualified and experienced enough could avoid a lot of the hassles associated with working in Korea and take up a whole ‘nuther set of hassles by switching countries because frankly, it sucks to be an English teacher most anywhere you go. There is ALWAYS something to complain about. That said, there are places in the world that offer a higher level of professionalism toward foreign faculty/staff. Comparing my 12 year experience in Korea to my 2 months experience in Abu Dhabi I keep wondering why I didn’t move years ago. I have talked to so many teachers who have taught in all corners of the globe and most of the worst stories about professional treatment I have heard have come from those who have been in Taiwan and Korea.
As for the schooling issue, Foreign schools exist for foreigners in the country. Korean faculty would have absolutely NO right to complain if education subsidies were offered to foreign faculty. Aside from the fact that they are normally woefully underpaid compared to their Korean counterparts and deserve a little extra benefit, they are living in a more or less expat-hostile community with (in most cases) little or no support from the local staff. I assure you that this is not the case in most of the rest of the world.
Also, if you are a qualified (that is experienced ESL teacher with certification and/or minimum MA in a related field) and have children and you would like them to grow up in a diverse school population where they will be exposed to a variety of the world’s cultures at the expense of your sponsoring school then drop me a line and let me introduce you to the UAE. Lots of positions to be had and the benefits kick Korea’s collective bottom. Of course, if you are a lazy teacher and prefer to plan your classes a day at a time whilst teaching a 12 to 15 hour a week schedule and having 8 -10 weeks vacation twice a year then stay in Korea cuz its the only place in the world where you can sit on your ass that much and make a salary.
cheers.
you’re not having sex with the locals in UAE, I’d imagine.
” Of course, if you are a lazy teacher and prefer to plan your classes a day at a time whilst teaching a 12 to 15 hour a week schedule and having 8 -10 weeks vacation twice a year then stay in Korea cuz its the only place in the world where you can sit on your ass that much and make a salary.”
Lazy? If you’ve spent those 12 years at a university, you should know that ‘marginalized’ is a more appropriate description.
Fencerider,
A person can be professional and still like a 15-hour teaching schedule and long vacations. Besides, I spend a lot of my office time grading homework and tests. You can keep UAE. My school here in Korea treats me just fine.
#22 tbone: “Did I read this correctly or did they get the body part(s) wrong? Usually, when westerners want to get something right, they put their “heads together,” not their hands!”
They put their hands together for a hearty round of Kumbaya, obviously.
#46…no, I prefer my wife (though there are some very attractive and available women here as there is there)
Gbev…I didn’t mean to suggest that ALL teachers are “marginalized” and “lazy” but some who complain about being treated badly (salaries, children’s education, housing, etc.) might want to make a change. I liked my schedule in the uni where I taught in Korea…the vacation and hours were great…the biggest problem was the pay was not near enough to raise 2 kids (let alone the 3 i will have soon) and at least where I was, there wasn’t a lot of real education going on since anyone with a bit of sense knows you can’t teach 50 to 100 students in a class and expect any kind of real language learning to be going on. Not all situations in Korea are like that but there are enough. If you are in a situation like that, then stay if you can deal with it personally and financialy.
Like I said, EVERY place has its pros and cons and its different for different people.
#46…no, I prefer my wife (though there are some very attractive and available women here as there is there)
Gbev…I didn’t mean to suggest that ALL teachers are “marginalized” and “lazy” but some who complain about being treated badly (salaries, children’s education, housing, etc.) might want to make a change. I liked my schedule in the uni where I taught in Korea…the vacation and hours were great…the biggest problem was the pay was not near enough to raise 2 kids (let alone the 3 i will have soon) and at least where I was, there wasn’t a lot of real education going on since anyone with a bit of sense knows you can’t teach 50 to 100 students in a class and expect any kind of real language learning to be going on. Not all situations in Korea are like that but there are enough. If you are in a situation like that, then stay if you can deal with it personally and financialy.
Like I said, EVERY place has its pros and cons and its different for different people.
gbevers wrote:
“Dr. No’s whiney post (#25) did not convince me that he is being treated “like s**t” at SKY University. Look at the silly examples he gave of the abuses he is suffering.
What do foreigner professors expect from their universities in Korea that is not in the contracts they sign? Praise? If you want recognition or praise, then you have to earn it, and my experience, expect for my Dokdo experience, tells me that Korean universities and professors do recognize the achievements and contributions of foreign professors.”
I was not trying to convince you of anything. And I did not give examples of how I was treated like shit: i saw no point of going into unpleasantness that I would rather forget. What I did do was give a couple of broad examples of what the unacceptable. I was pointing out a few examples: I don’t know of many places in the world where a secretary would go to a senior professor’s apartmenta nd order him to take off his shoes because it was a university-rented apartment and shoes-off is the Korean way, but, perhaps, that is just me. I do not recall stating anything about praies. As for earning respect and recognition, I got hired because I did: I have a better research record and superior international standing than most people in the school I was in — and that was a SKY university. Indeed, when I decided to quit, I had no trouble getting a job at a university that, by whatever standards and whetever ranking you choose, is ranked higher than all of the SKY universities. I get respect, more money, better working conditions, etc. etc. etc. So, there!
You ask what it is that foreigners exoect of their contracts in Korea. The most basic one is that the contract be respected. Signing a contract that says you will get X, Y, and Z, and then being told that things have changed is not the way to do things. One place even lowered my salary after I had started work! I moved on. When I finally ended in a SKY university, I thought that things would be different. I was disappointed. I moved on—out of Korea.
The simple fact is that Korean universities and their management will have to make major changes in their attitudes if they expect to hire and keep good people who are not (regardless of passport) ethnic Koreans. In the meantime, they can expect people to do runners. For foreigners: if you are a mug and desperate or are in a position to make a lot of quick money—invited Nobel-Prize winners are making a mint for a few short sessions—then Korea is an excellent place; otherwise, be smart and stay put where you are.
If you care to tell me of your Korean-university experiences and at which universities, I will do the same and we can then compare notes. I am also still in touch with quite a few foreigners in Korean universities, so I can add up-to-date comments from them.
gbevers wrote:
“Dr. No’s whiney post (#25) did not convince me that he is being treated “like s**t” at SKY University. Look at the silly examples he gave of the abuses he is suffering.
What do foreigner professors expect from their universities in Korea that is not in the contracts they sign? Praise? If you want recognition or praise, then you have to earn it, and my experience, expect for my Dokdo experience, tells me that Korean universities and professors do recognize the achievements and contributions of foreign professors.”
I was not trying to convince you of anything. And I did not give examples of how I was treated like shit: i saw no point of going into unpleasantness that I would rather forget. What I did do was give a couple of broad examples of what the unacceptable. I was pointing out a few examples: I don’t know of many places in the world where a secretary would go to a senior professor’s apartmenta nd order him to take off his shoes because it was a university-rented apartment and shoes-off is the Korean way, but, perhaps, that is just me. I do not recall stating anything about praies. As for earning respect and recognition, I got hired because I did: I have a better research record and superior international standing than most people in the school I was in — and that was a SKY university. Indeed, when I decided to quit, I had no trouble getting a job at a university that, by whatever standards and whetever ranking you choose, is ranked higher than all of the SKY universities. I get respect, more money, better working conditions, etc. etc. etc. So, there!
You ask what it is that foreigners exoect of their contracts in Korea. The most basic one is that the contract be respected. Signing a contract that says you will get X, Y, and Z, and then being told that things have changed is not the way to do things. One place even lowered my salary after I had started work! I moved on. When I finally ended in a SKY university, I thought that things would be different. I was disappointed. I moved on—out of Korea.
The simple fact is that Korean universities and their management will have to make major changes in their attitudes if they expect to hire and keep good people who are not (regardless of passport) ethnic Koreans. In the meantime, they can expect people to do runners. For foreigners: if you are a mug and desperate or are in a position to make a lot of quick money—invited Nobel-Prize winners are making a mint for a few short sessions—then Korea is an excellent place; otherwise, be smart and stay put where you are.
If you care to tell me of your Korean-university experiences and at which universities, I will do the same and we can then compare notes. I am also still in touch with quite a few foreigners in Korean universities, so I can add up-to-date comments from them.
gbevers wrote:
“A person can be professional and still like a 15-hour teaching schedule and long vacations. Besides, I spend a lot of my office time grading homework and tests. You can keep UAE. My school here in Korea treats me just fine.”
For a minute there, I actually thought you had some real experience of Korean universities! Relative to how English teachers are viewed in Korea vs. how foreign professors are viewed, I can certainly understand your attitude towards foreign professors. But, if it will help, let me assure you that the latter are not on the resentment-producing gravy train that your type seems to think, although in a country where status is important, they will inevitably get more sex, more ….
wjk, 검은 머리 외국인
“you’re not having sex with the locals in UAE, I’d imagine.”
I doubt it, and it has to be admitted that for a Western man the number of locals lining up to give it up is hard to beat in a place like Korea. But all that is after-hours business and must not be confused with issues of professionalism.
# 49
Darth Babaganoosh
Way to go, at least somebody got it. This blog is okay, but it lacks a sense of humor BIG TIME!
Did you know you know that you shouldn’t refer to me or anyone by a #? I’ve never had a problem with it but according to the SWELLEST FELLA on this site your aren’t very wise if you do so. ZERO instructions were EVER given on how to do so by the LAME ASS who said so.
gbevers wrote:
“my experience, expect for my Dokdo experience, tells me that Korean universities and professors do recognize the achievements and contributions of foreign professors.”
One more try: r.e. the experience, where and when? Then we can talk turkey.
Dr. No wrote:
Most people ARE grateful and happy when they get a job they apply for. What it sounds like to me is that you may have gotten your feelings hurt because your department head and the Korean professors did not treat you as special as you felt you deserved to be treated. Maybe your feelings were hurt because they did not accept the great proposals you had for changing the way things were done in your department, especially considering your experience and accomplishments.
Dr. No wrote:
And to top it all off, a lowly “secretary” dared to admonish you for wearing shoes in you home, something that is considered extremely offensive in Korea.
Based on the little that you have said about yourself, it sounds to me like you were the arrogant, culturally ignorant foreigner that many Koreans complain so much about. I do not know how long you worked at your Korean universities, but I going to guess that it was probably one contract at each university, and then you moved on to the next as you worked your way up the ranks, right? If true, that would mean that you showed very little of the loyalty that helps to win respect and build relationships in Korea.
I worked for two years at Gyeongsang National University in Jinju, not as a professor, but in an administrative position. I was given the title of Assistant Director of the foreign language institute there and was in charge of developing the English language program and managing the foreign instructors, who also taught Freshman English classes at the university. I also designed their English language camp program and was put in charge of managing it, including recruiting the six foreign instructors we needed for our first camp.
The university went out of its way to make me feel welcomed and involved. I was on committees and even traveled with the university president when he toured US universities to get ideas for a plan to develop a research park. The president and I traveled to the Univ. of Wisconsin, UCLA, and Stanford, and all the expenses were paid for my the university. I was regularly asked for my opinions and attended weekly meetings with the Korean staff at the language institute. I even got one of the 250,000-won-an-hour lecture gigs that Korean professors usually fought to get.
In spite of Gyeongsang University treating me with more respect and consideration than I probably deserved, I left the university because the job was too stressful for me and wanted more time to spend with my son in the Philippines. Also, I did not like being responsibility for firing and hiring the foreign instructors or for being the go-between for the foreign instructors and the school. The foreign instructors sometimes had legitimate grievances, but there were also many, many petty greivances that usually came about because of language and cultural ignorance, which I suspect was the main source of your problems.
I left Gyeongsang for a lower paying teaching job at Gacheon Gil College in Incheon, where I had more vacation time and more freedom to do as I wanted. I stayed at Gacheon for six years, in spite of the low salary, and only left when the school suddenly decided that I no longer met their high standards and refused to renew my contract. However, I was told by a Korean colleague involved in the hiring process that the real reason was that the school did not like my writings on the history of Dokdo.
I am now teaching English-related courses at another Korean university, where I have been working for a little over a year and a half. The administration at my new school is great because they give us the freedom to run our classes the way we want. I have only got a master’s degree, but all the professors and staff at my school always smile and greet me and show me a great deal of respect. I suspect they do so because I also show them respect and respect Korea’s cultural differences. I also suspect that that was something you were not doing.
All of the places I have worked in Korea, including jobs that were not universities, have honored the contracts we signed, though there was some disagreement of whether I was legally entitled to some severance pay when I left Gacheon University.
Were you just unlucky to be hired by bad universities in Korea? Or could it have been that Koreans were just turned off by your arrogance and lack of cultural understanding?
Dr. No wrote:
Yes, “Dr. No,” I can imagine your taking advantage of every opportunity to let people know that you were a real “foreign professor,” rather than just a lowly English teacher, to get that extra sex and to keep your ego inflated.
Now I look forward to reading about your Korean experience and to your correcting my assumptions.
Correction: We traveled to UC Berkeley.
Dear gbevers: When I asked for your exeperience of Korean universities, I was under the impression that you had been an academic at one—a real academic, that is. Obviously, I was wrong; so you are off the hook. And, yes, I did what I could to get the extra sex.
Dear gbevers
On the other hand, you may be able to tackle this one: what sorts of things can a person do in his own home in Korea? In addition to wearing shoes in my apartment, I also got drunk and engaged in deviant sexual activities in the same place.
Dr. No,
So you were a “real academic,” one of those who, for some reason, was unable to win enough respect at three different Korean universities to match your ego?
Judging from your lack of response, I think my assumptions about you were pretty close. I am not sure why, but, for some reason, I seem to have the ability to spot egotistical whiners.
If you want to get drunk and have sex on the dirty floor of your apartment, you are free to do that in Korea if it is really “your” apartment rather than the school’s, but I am almost certain that your drunk Korean girlfriends were uncomfortable with your wearing shoes in the place.
Dr No:
I was under the impression that you had been an academic at one—a real academic, that is. Obviously, I was wrong; so you are off the hook. And, yes, I did what I could to get the extra sex.
According to gbevers he was kicked out of one of his schools for publicly airing an unpopular view but he still maintains a positive view about working in Korea. If what he says is true then if anyone has a right to complain about bad treatment in a Korean university it is gbevers but he doesn’t. What I know of the Korean university environment comes close to gbevers description.
When it comes to rented/lent/let housing, wearing shoes in a rented Korean home is like shitting in the sink of a rented place in the West.
Dear gbevers
As a rule, I always told my Korean guests not to bother with the taking off of shoes; so they did not. Thank God neither you nor the secretary knew! BTW, I forgot to mention that I also used to walk around naked and fart loudly in my apartment. Fortunately, the secretary did not know of that too.
I rather doubt that my drunken Korean girlfriends were uncomfortable: their minds were usually elsewhere, if you know what I mean; indeed, sometimes, while in a hurry to get into the deed of kind, they forgot to take off their shoes.
All in all, am beginning to see why I never got respect. Thanks for enlightening me!
Maybe the girls were uncomfortable because his shoe treads kept digging into their calves while he was ass-f**ing them. Ah, to be young again…
Dear user-81
If a Korean university was the only place I could get a job, then I too would try to keep seeing only the positive side of things. In fact, for people like gbevers, I think Korea is a pretty good gig; the only problem is Koreans seem to be spending a lot on money on English “education” but hardly learning any.
The wearing of shoes is a funny one: So all those Korean guests I had were shitting in my sink! Shame on them!
Linkd wrote: “Maybe the girls were uncomfortable because his shoe treads kept digging into their calves while he was ass-f**ing them.”
Unlikely; more than I few liked a little bit of the rough element. Besides, the fact that they always came back for seconds proves that it couldn’t have been that bad.
“And to top it all off, a lowly “secretary” dared to admonish you for wearing shoes in you home, something that is considered extremely offensive in Korea.”
Oh no, acting as he wishes in HIS OWN HOUSE! What a crime. If we can’t act as we wish in our own houses (not bothering anyone), maybe you can tell us all where in Korea we can?
Dear Darth Babaganoosh: Apparently I was extremely offensive to millions of Koreans. In my defense, all I can say is that, as I was doing it secretly behind my locked doors, they did not know that they were extremely offended.
I’m afraid I am on Dr. No’s side. I had four different contracts at Korean universities - each one was violated and dishonored in some way. I am surprised Bevers is blaming No and exhbiting what sounds like the typical Korean attitude I observed at Korean universities. Sounds like a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome on the one hand and degree envy on the other. I think it’s like Dr. No says - for those who have BAs or maybe even MAs (but less so than BAs) Korean university jobs are much better than what they might get back home. That’s why you have such individuals always trying to look on the bright side of living in Korea. Note how those like Bevers always talk about their vacations and shirk responsibility. Real scholars/academics do not do that.
DrNo:
The wearing of shoes is a funny one: So all those Korean guests I had were shitting in my sink! Shame on them!
If YOU were wearing shoes inside “your” home and tracking in dirt, shit, mud, pieces of garbage and etc. from outside then THEY would not even think about taking their shoes off and getting all that on their socks and bringing it inside their own home. Korean buildings are often dirty on the outside but most homes have spotless floors inside.
fulminations_outside_of_Gorea:
Sounds like a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome
#70 should be matted and framed. Never again will anyone accuse gbevers of having Stockholm Syndrome about Korea.
Regardless of whether No should wear shoes indoors it is not the secretary’s place to tell him so. She was not the owner. It was incredibly insulting for her to do that. Imagine if a secretary at a US university did something like that to a visiting Korean scholar. Oh, you are frying kimchi and it is smelling up OUR guestrooms. Would that not be insulting?
Dear user-81
Thank you very much for informing me about Korea and Koreans. I had quite a few Korean firends, and we visited each other’s homes often. Generally, we respected the fact that different people have different rules in their own homes. You may know morte about my friends than I do; but as they invariably always offered to take off their shoes, and I told them not to bother, I have reason to believe that they did think about it.
Fulminations_outside_of_Gorea:
When you say that you “had four different contracts at Korean universities,” I assume you mean that you worked at four different universities. If that is true, then you seem to have had a lot in common with Dr. No, who worked at three different universities.
If you were so scholarly, why did those four Korean universities not do more to keep you?
Your moving around so much is a red flag that less desperate universities would have taken into account before hiring you.
“If you were so scholarly, why did those four Korean universities not do more to keep you?”
Exactly. You tell me. I moved around so much because I was cheated each time. Never happened anywhere else I worked. And I am employed steadily now and very happy now with no plans to move. Nowadays, my collagues respect me; my research accomplishments are recognized, as are my teaching skills.
Your views also confirm why serious scholars should not go to Korea - there is always the lingering suspicion that if you are in Korea something’s wrong and you are not qualified. You’ve tried to use that perception against me but only made yourself look unqualified by doing so.
Anyway, if I had not mentioned that I had so many bad experiences you would say it only happened once and it was my fault. Four times, though, suggests that there is a pattern at Korean universities - not with me, as I have had no problems elsewhere and have worked/signed contracts in many countries.
I have proven I could get work outside of Korea in a real academic setting. You can’t. Face the facts. Now, go back to your English Conversation 101 class.
Dear fulminations_outside_of_Gorea
All this is rather amusing. I was sufficiently offended by the secretary that I asked the university’s housing department what the rules were. The rules, the told me, were what I had been given in writing: keep the place reasonably clean and do not smoke indoors–nothing about shoes. So, there you have it: the Korean owners had no problems with shoes indoors, but the waygooks (self-appointed custodians of Korean culture) insist I was shitting in the sink.
Dear fulminations_outside_of_Gorea
We should be more understanding of gbevers, as he clearly does not know what is reasonable for an academic at a proper university: He actually feels grateful that he was allowed to run his classes as he saw fit! People he worked with actually asked for his opinions! And now he gets smiles from the professors! Professors smiling at him! What a wonderful world, Goryeo is.
Take this bit that he wrote: ‘I can imagine your taking advantage of every opportunity to let people know that you were a real “foreign professor,” rather than just a lowly English teacher, to get that extra sex and to keep your ego inflated.’ Not for the first time have I noted this resentment from English teachers in Korea, who would rather that all foreigners be lumped into one group. What they do not appreciate is that given Koreans’ views on status and education, the stratification between English teachers and professors is inevitable, with the latter gettng the better part of the deal. A far better approach would be for Mr. gbevers to go back to school and work to upgrade himself.
The fundamental truth is that because of the English-language craze, people like Mr. gbevers find themselves in positions that they would only dream of back home. (My God, he went on a trip that included the university president! And the university paid! And his job title had “Director” in it!) So, it is perfectly natural that they feel so grateful that they will go to absurd lengths to show how pro-Korean they are. Pretty soon, they even out-do Koreans as experts in Korean culture. Mr. gbevers even thinks he is in a position to comment on academic lives in Korean universities.
Fulminations_outside_of_Gorea,
So you not only worked at four different universities in Korea, you worked contracts in “many” other countries, as well?
Why did you, as a serious scholar, move around so much? Are you a cultural anthropologist? Again, your seeming inability to hold a steady job would be a red flag to me.
Mr. No,
You asked about my work experience in Korea, so I told you, but you have not told me anything about yours, except that you worked at three different schools in Korea and that you got upset when a secretary told you that you should not wear shoes in the school’s apartment.
As for your school’s written rules not mentioning anything about wearing shoes in your apartment, did the rules also forget to mention that you should not shit in the sinks? After having worked two previous contracts in Korea, I think a scholar with your unspecified creditials should have learned that shoes are not worn inside homes in Korea.
Yes, I am grateful to my employers. Shouldn’t I be? Maybe, in addition to your cultural ignorance, your lack of gratitude was also one of your problems. Didn’t you say that the SKY University staff mentioned that?
So you think I go to “absurd lengths to show how pro-Korean” I am? Well, obviously you do not know me very well.
I like Korea and Koreans, and I love the language and culture, but there are things about Korea I do not like, as many on this blog can tell you.
The problem I have with you and Fulminations is that you came across as being culturally ignorant and arrogant, especially when you referred to the incident with the secretary. I can even imagine your going to the school administrators and demanding that the secretary be fired or disciplined. You just seem like the type.
Of course, I could be wrong, especially since I am not a real academic.
fulminations:
Your views also confirm why serious scholars should not go to Korea - there is always the lingering suspicion that if you are in Korea something’s wrong and you are not qualified.
Not really. But if you’re supposedly a serious scholar and you’ve gone from job to job (one of you four times and the other three times) then there is a lingering suspicion that there might be something wrong from your side. But it could be both, like a bad combination of you and Korea. Or “Gorea” as you so scholarly say.
Four times, though, suggests that there is a pattern at Korean universities - not with me, as I have had no problems elsewhere and have worked/signed contracts in many countries.
LMAO… I got hired at four different places and it didn’t work out… what’s wrong with them?!
I have proven I could get work outside of Korea in a real academic setting.
You’ve also proven you can get work in Korea. You haven’t proven anything about being able to keep work.
DrNo:
All this is rather amusing. I was sufficiently offended by the secretary that I asked the university’s housing department what the rules were. The rules, the told me, were what I had been given in writing: keep the place reasonably clean
In Korea keeping the place reasonably clean includes not wearing shoes in the house. The secretary’s response (secretaries are the eyes and ears of their bosses so it’s not strange she would have felt it appropriate to say something like that) was understandable and you trying to get her disciplined for it?
and do not smoke indoors–nothing about shoes. So, there you have it: the Korean owners had no problems with shoes indoors,
If they were Koreans then they probably did have a problem with it but in order for all to save face they probably just let this unpleasant behavior of yours go since you were already doing it.
but the waygooks (self-appointed custodians of Korean culture) insist I was shitting in the sink.
The secretary was a “waygook”? This is not aobut”waygooks” gbevers and user-81 telling you what we think is proper in Korea… we were agreeing with the response of the non-waygook secretary, who you conveniently removed from your story so you could make it look like you’re standing against “waygooks” who are overly concerned about what is proper in their version of Korean culture.