Hey, you guys forgot Bitter Gyopo!
Anyway, in the Expat Living section of the Korea Herald, T.K. Park of “Ask a Korean” fame looks at why expats bitch so much, while Robert Ouwehand of Roboseyo notoriety examines why Koreans get so defensive.
Give both pieces a read — clearly, a lot of work got put into them. I don’t intend to add much to the discussion other than to say what I’ve said before — yes, a lot of the bitching on the expat side is due to ignorance, particularly linguistic, but at the same time, I can’t help but feel much of it is simply environmental. Since we’re trading in generalities here, permit me to say that Koreans are not, by-and-large, a happy-go-lucky minjok — that decades of colonial exploitation, war, dictatorship, forced-march economic development and incompetent civilian leadership hasn’t resulted in a people characterized by an excessively rosy world view. Korean angst manifests itself in a low-trust society and, well, lots and lots of bitching, particularly in the social freedom of cyberspace. This has an effect on the expat, too — if Japan creates “the creepy Japanophile,” Korea produces the bitchy expat.
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The press should pay attention to the opinions of voters such me: naturalized Koreans and permanent residents. Having spent a significant part of our lives in foreign countries allows us to form opinions on Korean issues with a certain level of emotional detachment while understanding what drives public opinion…we can look at the issues from both an insider’s and outsider’s point of view while, if you will.
(scratch that last ‘while’)
Oops, looks like Wangkon scooped you Robert. Two months ago:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....-in-korea/
Nothing new here, moving on…
cmm, the question is whether Wangkon will give the Marmot a hat tip.
to CMM: yeah, it’s been posted here before, but the dialogue is ongoing, and it’s spread to a lot of other sites, too (links at my blog, if you care to look).
If you don’t feel like doing all the reading of the original (very long) posts, the expat living writeups do nicely as a summary/retrospective. Meanwhile, Gord Sellar adds his two bits tomorrow.
I agree that the Kyopo condition would be interesting to examine, but what with The Korean and I not being Kyopos, I don’t think we’re qualified to weigh in on it.
Zenkimchi, Stafford and I also looked at the topic on SeoulPodcast, focusing mostly on the online commenting.
http://www.seoulpodcast.com/archives/141
I especially liked this post about the whole thing, from gomushin girl:
http://gomushingirl.blogspot.c.....whine.html
While this is a great topic I find these analysis fairly shallow. Good analysis of this topic should incite flamewar, sockpuppetry, meltdown and banning, nothing less.
I would like to hear from “Japanophiles” who have also experienced living in Korea. Hello Kitty waving Kimchee munchers. How do the two counties compare to an expat who has lived in both? Do they become angry expat and Japanophile at the same time? Is it possible to become a Koreaphile who is an angry expat in Japan? In my case Korea is a more stimulating place, but I love Japan all the same.
SHOCK GASP, the Korean is not Gyeopo?
Don’t say it isn’t true.
hoop. my bad. I suppose The Korean IS a Gyeopo, depending on what “age he moved abroad” requirement makes a Gyeopo (as opposed to just being a Korean abroad).
He’s certainly not one of THOSE Gyeopos. . . though I’d bet he knows a few.
Frankly, I don’t understand Gyeopos well enough, haven’t known enough of them or talked in enough depth about stuff with them, to feel qualified to say anything, even the kinds of blanket generalizations I’ve been plying so far, on their behalf. . . that might be the main reason it wasn’t part of the series. It would be interesting to compare the views of a Gyeopo in Korea with the views of a Gyeopo abroad, as well as looking at the differences according to when they left and/or returned to Korea.
I could take a stab at it if you ask nicely, though I’d fill my thoughts up with so many caveats, qualifiers and ass-covering hedges that you won’t have much to go on anyway. . . and if you’re looking for a fire-breathing sock-puppet meltdown banfest, as entertaining as they are from time to time, I’ll be happy not to oblige.
What an utterly random photo in robo’s article. Or is it? Is he defending the bridge from bitchy expats? Or is he enveloped in the bright aura of the expats’ well intentions?
Anyway, the number of years spent “modernizing” seems to some to have some importance. (”Hey Mister, careful with that motorcycle driving on the sidewalk.” “Save it for my grandson, bitchy expat. I’ve only been modernizing for 40 years.”) If the years are a determiner of something more than time in and of itself would it not be unfair to also mention Korea’s many-thousand-year head start?
I found nothing insightful about either article. (Sorry, roboseyo.)
I’ll sum up my view in just three lines:
Why do Koreans get so defensive? Because Expats bitch so much.
Why do expats bitch so much? Because Koreans get so defensive.
Who started it and who perpetuates it? Idiots.
Mmkay? It takes refinement of mind to be able to rationally audience valid criticism of one’s nation and people. It takes even more refinement to be a good critic capable of producing that valid criticism. Expatland, here, and Korea-land, there (Korea being wherever the Koreans are), ain’t looking so good on either score.
Anyway, this issue can’t really be about Koreans vs Expats. Most Koreans can’t read what the expats here are writing. Thus, “Koreans” must, for the most part, be referring to kyopos. And, BTW, it is “kyopo” or “gyopo” — not “kyeopo.”
Killjoy.
Korea: Alexis de Tocqueville’s not wanted.
Whoa whoa. The Korean is a full-blown gyopo, and damn proud of it. My initial aim for Ask a Korean! was to be a Korean American blog, but I must admit it has strayed a little. But if you’d like to examine anything about gyopo mentality, ask away. You know where to find me.
Oops, ignore the extraneous apostrophe.
If you photoshop that bridge out I’d assume Roboseyo were enjoying the gorgeous sunset from Dok-do, which Dunkin Donuts reminds us is Korean Territory.
And it takes either inventiveness or error to verbify the noun ‘audience’ as you did, considering that such use is not sanctioned by (nor even described in) such reference sources as the Oxford, Merriam-Webster, and American Heritage dictionaries.
Not a bad read. But I don’t really buy the argument. When you start from the premise that both sides in a conflict must share blame for the conflict, you’re off on the wrong foot.
I can go for the part about bitching being a natural part of the expat experience.
I don’t accept that the linguistics of Koreans’ relationship to their country drives the defensiveness. I attribute it to the isolation, poverty, inferiority complex, and ignorance of Korea’s past.
I don’t accept that because a Korean says OUR country instead of MY country, or Korea, he is unable to comprehend that aggressive driving and stellar highway deaths are a negative. Nationalist and xenophobic education and culture are to blame. Not linguistics.
As I mentioned in another recent post, I was discriminated against by some of the workers in the KTX train system and lost a couple million won in the process. Minimum.
I don’t care who cheats me; who discriminates against me; I won’t be happy about it. It happens very often in Korea and foreigners who take in the heiny are not happy. What could be simpler?
abcdefg, you seem to think that bitching or pointing out something that should change makes a person an idiot. We
Not a bad read. But I don’t really buy the argument. When you start from the premise that both sides in a conflict must share blame for the conflict, you’re off on the wrong foot.
I can go for the part about bitching being a natural part of the expat experience.
I don’t accept that the linguistics of Koreans’ relationship to their country drives the defensiveness. I attribute it to the isolation, poverty, inferiority complex, and ignorance of Korea’s past.
I don’t accept that because a Korean says OUR country instead of MY country, or Korea, he is unable to comprehend that aggressive driving and stellar highway deaths are a negative. Nationalist and xenophobic education and culture are to blame. Not linguistics.
As I mentioned in another recent post, I was discriminated against by some of the workers in the KTX train system and lost a couple million won in the process. Minimum.
I don’t care who cheats me; who discriminates against me; I won’t be happy about it. It happens very often in Korea and foreigners who take in the heiny are not happy. What could be simpler?
abcdefg, you seem to think that bitching or pointing out something that should change makes a person an idiot. ?
I liked it. Poetic, and appropriate context. Had he said “I audienced a visitor to my company today” it would have sounded idiotic. But no such awkwardness is present. Just look at this gorgeous prose again; it’s beautiful enough for framing.
It all depends on why you go to a place. What’s lost
on the Korean observer can not be imagined by a non-Korean in Korea.
There is no whining or bitching or explanation. We divide the world to create more buyers. The more countries, the more war, the more division, the more markets. Soon you will be alone with an image.
Higher Education = smaller families
Choke! As if much of anything on the blogs or the English dailies comes anywhere near the caliber of Tocqueville’s work.
To sum up Korean apprehension toward foreigners today, it’s “Korea: Toke-villes not wanted”.
Go ahead and frame it, then, Linkd. I certainly don’t mind that he wrote something that English linguists have yet to accept or even comment on. And, although I’m not considering where to put it on my wall, I also like how it sounds.
I do find it ironic, however, that abcdefg previously chose to point out my supposed flaws, even as I was supporting the naturalness of what you see him doing here.
Oh, I missed that part. Go ahead and kick his pretentious ass, then.
By the by, Linkd, and at the risk of offering advice to a professional, I wouldn’t put this new verb form of ‘audience’ in any of your clients’ corporate communications material just yet.
Thanks, but it wouldn’t matter. Just about everything I send off as a “final copy” gets mauled by an in-house Korean staff member with a few years of university in the US. I am starting to win my “ubiquitous” battles, though.
ABCDEFG:
I’ll sum up my view in just three lines:
Why do Koreans get so defensive? Because Expats bitch so much.
Why do expats bitch so much? Because Koreans get so defensive.
Well dammit, now I’ll just have to take the whole series down. Damn you and your brevity, ABCDEFG!
There are lots of non-Kyopo Koreans who speak/read English well enough to follow English language blogs; it’s not ONLY expat vs. Kyopo, though kyopos, with their English skills, are over-represented online — the expat/korean dynamic also occurs in real life, in many a tactlessly-planned adult discussion class, for starters.
Not a bad read. But I don’t really buy the argument. When you start from the premise that both sides in a conflict must share blame for the conflict, you’re off on the wrong foot.
umm. . . are you serious? You want to assign all blame for what sometimes plays out as an unhealthy relationship on one side? This isn’t marge and homer simpson, and it takes two to tango.
I don’t accept that the linguistics of Koreans’ relationship to their country drives the defensiveness. I attribute it to the isolation, poverty, inferiority complex, and ignorance of Korea’s past.
I don’t accept that because a Korean says OUR country instead of MY country, or Korea, he is unable to comprehend that aggressive driving and stellar highway deaths are a negative. Nationalist and xenophobic education and culture are to blame. Not linguistics.
I didn’t imply it did; the linguistic “our country” thing was an illustration of the fact Koreans take their national identity very personally, not an explanation of WHY they do. WHY they do is too big a question for a one-page write-up, and frankly, I’m not qualified to write that book.
Sucks that you got discriminated against. That part was why I included the line, “Some people, believe it or not, actually aren’t having a good time in Korea.”
I’ll be audiencing questions all night, folks. Fire away!
aww crap. my formatting got edited out when I posted.
Those were for ABCDEFG and Redneck Hickboy. Just squint your eyes and imagine the block quotes, thanks.
gbnhj, I’m afraid you are being overdefensive. I only briefly corrected a spelling mistake of yours in that other thread – ie, you misspelled the word misspell! Had there not been several others correcting the same post, I don’t think I would have written anything in response to what you wrote.
But, anyway, my use of the word audience as a verb definitely comes from error. The word made intuitive sense to me and I don’t usually consult dictionaries when I’m dashing off comments for this blog. Sorry!
It’s OK, abcdefg. We clemency you.
In the Land of the Free & Home of the Brave(tm), the standard response to a bitchy, whiney foreigner is short, simple, and to the point. No long-winded hand-wringing about why that foreigner is being bitchy or whiney. We all know what that response is, don’t we?
Uhh. . . but Korea already built the DMZ… do they need ANOTHER wall?
#31
Nodding my head in agreement?
#31
A standup routine on Comedy Central?
#31
Ask them for another loan?
#31
Give them millions after they win a lawsuit because their travails led to a miscarriage?
Sure am. Do you really think blame must always be shared for every conflict? If so, you should work for the Korean police. You could be the guy who decides blame for car accidents.
And I should never be a webjockey.
Its ok, I’m still learning too
Redneck Hickboy, try this site.
And don’t say nobody never helped you
Well, Redneck Hickboy, I’d suggest that a sociological phenomenon involving thousands upon thousands of expats, just as many Koreans and Kyopos, and millions of conversations over years and years, as well as thousands of pages of website posting and commenting is a little more complex than a one-time, one-place interaction between two drivers, one or both of whom may or may not have been paying attention. . .
I’d also suggest that looking at the expat/korean/kyopo antagonism issue and assigning all blame to one or the other player would be more akin to looking at EVERY car accident in the US this year, and assigning blame for EVERY accident on a single factor.
I might drop a quote or two:
“The only thing blame does is to keep the focus off you when you are looking for external reasons to explain your unhappiness or frustration. You may succeed in making another feel guilty about something by blaming him, but you won’t succeed in changing whatever it is about you that is making you unhappy.”
–Wayne Dyer
but after I’ve said that, I’ll leave it be.
<thanks Thanks, LAKalbi. /endthanks<
oops. got it wrong again.
I put the Bitchy, Whiney Expat TM phenomena down to their feeling of rejection by mainstream Korean society. This is exacerbated by their failure to understand their surroundings and their inflated sense of self worth. Mention their expectations of gratitude for the liberation of South Korea, good old everyday racial prejudice and a limited ability to drop their cultural arrogance and see things from another’s perspective and you will be roundly lambasted. The topic is best addressed in a shallow manner at risk of antagonizing the subject.
Roboseyo — just out of curiosity, how long have you been in Korea for?
Roboseyo is very noisy for a nube, but he is wise enough to stick to topics on which he has knowledge. For that alone he should be commended. I’d like to know how roboseyo’s language studies are going, for improvement in that sphere could really add value to his input.
Since January 2003, thanks, Robert, though I didn’t exert myself online until more recently.
LAKalbi: that long enough to not be a noob anymore?
And I’m still plugging away at the language, LAKalbi. Though not as far along as I should be, it’s become a high priority for adding more value to my experience here.
@42,
Expat Jane seems to agree with you: Link
Your’e doing well enough Roboseyo, however until you can achieve reasonable competancy in the language you will be a nube and fail to adapt to mainstream Korean society. 5 years and still illiterate, boy, Cambodian grandmothers in San Diego learn Spanish and English in 6 months after arriving.
If your students probably speak better English than you do Korean you should be embarrassed.
Drop the kiddiefiddling and get into school.
LAK: my Korean’s probably comparable to, likely better than, what Cambodian grandmothers can speak after six months: still plugging which means it’s a work in progress, not zero ability. I’m strong in some areas (food, directions) and weak in others, but boning up all the time.
I don’t teach kids.
I also disagree that one will always be a newbie until one can speak the language (depending on what you mean by “reasonable competency”), though one WILL always have a limited interface with the culture.
Next. . . I don’t know what you mean by illiterate, and I’m also not sure what you mean by adapt — after five years I’ve adapted to Korean society in my own ways, I’d like to participate and understand more, sure, and I’d LOVE to be able to know and be known more authentically to people who don’t speak English, but on the other hand, I don’t think I’d WANT to assimilate completely. Poke around at Joshing Gnome to see more of what I mean — especially his stuff about amoral familism, or his series about “what is jung”.
Until then…
Gord Sellar’s piece in the Korea Herald, completing the three part series, is up: this one’s about trying to be a happy expat instead of a miserable expat, and well worth reading.
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/N.....250040.asp
If that link goes dead, it’s also copied at my blog.
http://roboseyo.blogspot.com/2.....tment.html
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