Talk amongst yourselves.
Open Thread #65
This entry was written by Robert Koehler, posted on September 6, 2008 at 4:13 am, filed under Open Thread. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.
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153 Comments
Has anyone seen “님은 먼곳에 : Sunny” by Lee Jun-ik in Korea? How was it?
I know some folks are tired of hearing about the US election, but I wanted to share with you perspectives from a few colleagues who have become naturalized citizens in the past few years. During a round of self-introductions at recent staff meeting, a Chilean man excitedly told us this would be his first time to vote ever. He was 17 when Pinochet took away the right to vote. By the time democracy was restored, he was already in the US. A Brazilian and a Russian who was born a citizen of the USSR and never considered herself Uzbek are proud to call themselves Americans and thrilled about exercising their voting rights this November. Do you remember the first time you voted?
I remember my first vote. The person I vote for never wins. I’m willing to accept money to vote for your opponent. Any takers?
Marmot, I’m not liking the new look. Not because it’s different but just because it’s too plain and amateurish. If I stumbled across this I’d guess it’s some guy in his mom’s basement. The last one you had looked very smart and worthy of your esteemed blog.
“I remember my first vote. The person I vote for never wins. I’m willing to accept money to vote for your opponent. Any takers?”
I get paid not to vote.
I have a question for everyone. I sometimes read comments in this blog to learn what folks in this blog, who are mostly non-Koreans, would think about particular topics, which is in many cases interesting. I, however, noticed that there are many commentators here who spend a lot of time by posting negative comments about South Korea and people in the country (and sometimes “Kyopos”). Please don’t get me wrong. I don’t mind any negative thoughts themselves as to the country and its people, and basically I should respect any different opinions.
My questions is: Why some people here spend that amount of time and energy, posting those negative comments about the country and its people that they hate or at least don’t like? There are many constructive comments here, but so many comments show hatred or anger toward the country.
Personally I can’t spend my time that way. If I don’t like a country or anything, I can’t spend my time on posting negative or hate comments on it. That simply would be a waste of my time and energy.
This is a big mystery in this blog for me. Is it because they want the country to “be improved”? Or because they have nothing else to do? Or because they are simply so angry or frustrated at South Korea? Please give me your thoughts.
BTW, I’m a Korean national.
That ban didn’t last long. Marion Jones should be so lucky.
The first time I voted in a presidential election it was by absentee ballot from Germany, where I stationed. The second time was by absentee ballot from the Pacific. Since then it’s been in the States.
When I first came to Korea, I enjoyed watching the national football team. Over time as the younger players have pushed the older players out, almost every game gets hostile with the other team. It makes the game far less easier to watch. I do not think the team has enough sportsman-like behavior. Other teams Korea has played (like China) have not displayed themselves well either. Nobody likes a sore loser, but everybody hates a bad winner.
that gives me a whole new perspective.
4:13am….talk about an early riser.
In regards to wjk, yes the guy’s form of expression ain’t exactly something one would call logical or mature. But you have to give the guy credit for speaking his mind on matters that some people won’t dare say out loud. Besides the MH won’t be the MH without guys such as wjk.
user-81:” That ban didn’t last long. Marion Jones should be so lucky.”
Yes, I was fortunate. Luckily, the Marmot is as perspicacious as he is he is magnanimous.
Maybe he didn’t ban you.
Well, I was skating a little close to the edge and was on pretty thin ice. One crack too many and I found myself stuck in this extended metaphor.
Taking a Mulligan: LPGA flip flops on English policy:
http://www.latimes.com/news/lo.....4701.story
“LPGA backs down on English requirement”
http://ap.google.com/article/A.....gD930OJQO2
“LPGA bites tongue over English language plan”
#5,
Some people like to vent. Indeed, some people need to vent regularly. It’s healthier than heading to the pojangmakcha, drinking soju until intelligence is completely suppressed, and then staggering forth to see what will get in the way of releasing their anger.
Other people have been giving the same constructive criticism on the same issues for so long that their comments grow crusty, and that crust grows sharp as it dries out.
Read Ask a Korean and Roboseyo’s mega blogstravaganza on constructive criticism and why foreigners complain so much. It will answer many questions.
Chun @ #5
The answer is probably that they do not hate Korea, and the reason they write about stuff they don’t like could be to seek support of peers in a similar situation.
The are a lot of different individuals here, and sometimes their complaints are justified, and sometimes not.
To be fair to Koreans most of the problems that can arise with them can be solved if you can speak Korean, but that is not an option for most of the people here who are in Korea on temporary work visas.
Due to the limitations of discussing on a blog, a lot of discussions can turn into “us versus them” style confrontations, and when this happens kyopo can often be unsympathetic to the westerners that they share citizenship with. Whether fair or not, the fact that kyopo are supportive of Korean and dismissive of foreign concerns is often seen as being the result of racial loyalty to their fellow ethnic Koreans. This opens up a whole lot of questions about their place in western countries, and explains some of the hostility towards kyopo that you may have noticed from some commenters on this blog.
Even so, the discussions going on here are positively high brow compared to some of the discussions going on at sites for Koreans living overseas. Fortunately for Koreans most westerners are unable to read Korean and do not know what Koreans living in western countries are saying about them.
JiMong @ #1:
Saw it twice. Quite good, actually. Apparently it’s based on a true story.
RJK:
Working on the theme again? The current one is a bit… sparse.
Yeah, the design is a bit… off.
The first time I voted was in 2006, for the midterm election. Voted for Harry Mitchell (who’s like a local political hero around Tempe) in House and Napolitano for governor. This year will be the first time I vote in a Presidential election.
@5 Chun:
Curiously, most of the disgruntled posters on Korea-related blogs are or at one point English teachers in Korea. My guess for the ones who bitch too much is simply due to the expectation, from hearing stories from friends and friends of friends, others, etc, that the job they have will be an easy job and score easily with plenty of Korean chicks due to their godly status of being an English speaking foreigner. But once they are there, they find that they are actually expected to do work and not all Korean women will drop their pants for anyone who will converse with them in English.
Now there are those who do get royally screwed, and unfortunately it is a problem in Korea. But I do not believe for a second that this problem applies to even half of those who come here or any other blog to “vent.” To the unfortunate people, I think they know the injustice won’t be solved by bitching on and on (anonymously) in an online blog.
But please understand that I am not generalizing ALL of those who come to Korea to teach, as I am a firm believer that the ones who make the most noise (anywhere) are the extremely small, disgruntled minority.
of course, “anywhere” as in, any Korea-related blogs
Mr. or Ms. Chun, there are a few characters here who repeatedly say negative things about Korea/Koreans, and perhaps some of them are English teachers, I don’t know (I’ve been working for Korean companies here).
You might want to separate the obviously shrill negative comments from ones that have a basis in what’s actually going on in Korea, opinions that even many Koreans might share. When non-Koreans live in the country for many years (about 10 for me) we see the good and bad and talk about both. Korea’s a great place, and has its pluses, along with peculiarities that get everyone going, such as Dokdo and ant-Americanism and so on. Sometimes parts of Korean society behave in ways that I poke fun at on here, mea culpa, although I would do the same to people in my home country.
I think you’ll find the majority of non-Koreans living here for an indefinite period feel they have a stake in Korea’s advancement as a society and wish Koreans well even when they criticize some aspects of it on this blog.
Anyway, I’m glad you’re here and hope to hear more from you.
Now the MCain campaign is moving to block the investigation into Sarah Palin’s alleged abuse of power as governor:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/157439
Hmm, why would they do that?
Yuppers, that’s what I want, a lipstick-toting, pms-ing, power-hungry hockey mom in the White House. She could sponsor a bill that removed all federal funding from schools that teach anything EXCEPT creationism, like she did in Alaska, make “Just say no” the only sex education any schools can teach (we can see how well that worked in HER house), and basically send the US back to the 1950’s.
Works for me.
Obama vs O’Reilly, Fox News interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luA0AMP51Gc
—
Chun: Your impressions are accurate. Lots of genuine ill-will, bitter sarcasm and thick schadenfreude for whenever any Korean anywhere falls, not to mention the race-baiting, the sweeping racialist generalizations and whatever else. It’s all a part of being an internerd expat living in Korea (or ex-expat). What you won’t ever see are the same group of folk blogging in the same way about Korea in the Korean language. They may write about being frustrated or wanting to improve Korea, but all of that is a lie. They are anti-Korean internet warriors, not even comparable to activists like Al Sharpton for when Sharpton whines or squeals he’s at least doing it in the language of the country he rails against.
And of course not all non-Koreans writing in the Kblogosphere are bad. There are exceptions. But good luck distinguishing these good apples from the rest. They all stink the same way at times.
I recently received a Korean civil court judgement, the maximum amount allowed without an attorney. Had I hired an attorney, I could have sued for more since I had over the max. amount in damages.
That one wise guy had a chance to get in on it but he turned it down(check # 29 and # 30)…
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....-law-help/
Palin sounds like TV evangelist. Her speech sounds good to uneducated ears and only persuasive enough to force an eighteen-year-old boy into a shotgun marriage.
ABC, that’s one epic sweeping generalization you’ve got going there. So all who “write about being frustrated or wanting to improve Korea” are lying? If you say so….
For any Americans here who haven’t registered to vote or want info, here’s a great site:
https://www.overseasvotefoundation.org/
# 24
“there are a few characters here who repeatedly say negative things about Korea/Koreans, and perhaps some of them are English teachers”
So, what do you have against English Teachers? Is it that only an English Teacher would repeatedly say negative things about Korea/Koreans. What a bunch of hogwash! Do you work for a Korean media outlet?
Congratulations on your judgment. Now turn it into money; a lot of judgments turn out to be worthless in the end, due to the difficulty of enforcement. Good luck!
Recently I posted to this blog and, with silver tongue, expressed my undying love for the KTX.
Oh, the bitter irony.
I still love the train. But I inquired thrice as to the existence of a discount card or membership for frequent travelers. I was told that such a card does not exist.
My wife, who is Korean, went and inquired for me ( always a tactic to consider). They said , ‘the card exists, but not for foreigners.
This, as we all know, is the International Business Hub of NE Asia.
Undaunted, I asked again this week. I was told the same thing they told her. With a twist. It’s not available for military personnel only. If you have a National ID number, you can get one.
Today, I went to Seoul Station with my wife, and we bought one using her ID #. No problem. I put the paper discount ticket (kinda postcard thickness) in my wallet. There is no name on it, and I can use it any time.
The discount is 30-50%.
I spent ca. W500,000 on the KTX IN THE LAST 12 DAYS.
So, the card is not new it’s apparently been available all this time.. and you pay 80,000 won to be able to get this 30-50% discount for a 6 month period.
Bottom line is, I have lost up to 2 million won in the last several years because of misinformation from the KTX staff, whether it was deliberate or not.
Hope whoever reads this can take advantage of the discount.
SO Chun… maybe this post will give you a clue as to why foreigners in Korea bitch a lot. It’s because we get FUCKED a lot.
#5 Hey there chun. I talked about that exact topic on my blog a month or so ago. You can read about it here.
there are lots of reasons, but it’s helpful to remember that the complaining expats are not necessarily representative of the entire expat community, nor is the complaining necessarily even an accurate reflection of a single expat’s entire experience of Korea.
I like the new format. Put a banner photo on top and leave it,
@#33 Redneck,
Have had a KTX card since the KTX started in 2004. I agree it saves you heaps plus you get to use the nice cardholder’s lounge at the major KTX stations (Seoul, Yongsan, Daejeon, Busan etc.)
When I first got it too there was a bit of resistance…Foreigner…No! (Hands in X shape in front of body)
But with a little persistence I got it.
Like so many other things in Korea it’s not that foreigners aren’t allowed something it’s that the person behind the counter is either too lazy to deal with the white face in front of them, or they are ashamed of their lack of English ability despite 6 years at school studying the language and 3 iBT TOEFL test scores in the high 900s.
Same goes with the banks, the local Gu office and just about everything else I guess.
Also how can comments be off topic in an open thread?
Sounds like Korean Logic to me.
A bunch of comments by this same “Jean” appeared in threads I authored, with the same “deleted (off-topic)” as well, though I did not delete any comments by this guy.
I suppose this poster is teasing us.
I saw my wife watching a Korean talkshow she had downloaded and noticed them still doing a routine that they used to do years ago when I was in Korea.
Did anyone ever notice how they do the “do a silly dance and laugh” schtick to kill time on evey show? I thought by now the viewers would get tired of it but they find it funny every time.
Does anyone out there find it funny or innovative? I am curious.
Omniscient kyopo #395 wrote:
I have, regularly. So STFU.
Dizzy poindexter #20,093 wrote:
There is no Marmot’s Hole or expat blog equivalent in Korean, no collective “blogosphere” in which expats write in Korean about Korea in the same spiriti that they do for the English variety. Merely shooting off little dipshit dogbertt posts randomly here or there on Naver or something wouldn’t count.
I for one, approve of the new login requirement to post comments.
Doesn’t explain Jean, though — is Jean just typing
“Deleted (off topic)” and then posting, or are the trolls actually attempting a hostile takeover of the Marmot’s hole?
Don’t let the inmates take over the asylum, Robert! Fighting!
So now the McCain campaign’s cynical, pandering choice for VP is being kept away from the press, and the campaign is blocking the investigation into her alleged abuse of power as governor.
It seems they’re circling the wagons because they don’t want Americans to find out how utterly incompetent she was as mayor and how much federal money she took for pork projects, even while Alaska had a surplus of billions of dollars, thanks in large part to a windfall profit tax she imposed–the exact same windfall profit tax on oil that McCain criticized Obama for opposing.
Unfortunately for “now I’m using Obama’s change theme” McCain, we now have this thing called the Internet, and we see that: Palin needed to hire a city administrator for a town of 5,000 people, and left the town $20 million in debt.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09.....wanted=all
http://www.politico.com/news/s.....12987.html
She’s against abortion in all cases, including rape and incest, says she’s “open” to teaching the Biblical account of creation in public school science classes, and that didn’t know what the vice president does.
What pisses me off about McCain is that I wanted him to make a serious VP pick, not one to pander for the Christian Right fringe vote, and this side show with “caribou Barbie” has taken us off course from real policy debates into a “bullshit narrative,” as Reagan’s speechwriter Peggy Noonan described McCain’s choice.
Vote for Obama, Ron Paul, Nader or whoever, just don’t vote for McCain, who is insulting the majority of Americans.
“the exact same windfall profit tax on oil that McCain criticized Obama for PROPOSING”
Damn it’s hard to type on Sunday mornings
Roboseyo–Marmot’s always had the login, it’s part of Wordpress.
Thank you for the opinions (I’m a male, btw, unfortunately).
Some of the opinions are quite contradictory, but I think each of them is a part of the answer for my question and definitely helped me better understand what people here think.
What’s interesting is that I could notice some sort of anger and tension in some of the answers. When I posted the above question (#5), I was wondering about the energy behind the anger, which may not be a correct description. Perhaps the “anger” is the source of the energy. I was wondering about what made those people that angry and how come they spend so much time to “vent” if I can borrow this word correctly.
Someone here once said that South Korea is full of hatred because of so much social pressure, frustration, and stress. I couldn’t disagree, while I was luckily in quite a advantaged environment when I lived in the country. I’ve found another group where there is prevalent hatred and anger. They are some commentators in a few K blogs, although they might not represent expats in Korea or ex-expats.
Anyway, it is always interesting to hear what the other people think.
I also want to ask the same question in Occidentalism, but I feel I might get better answers here. Would you tell me what is the purpose or goal of Occidentalism? My question is not whether what they say is right or wrong. I’m just badly curious what they are doing for. As I said above, I can’t afford to spend my time and energy for something that I’m against. I would fight for something valuable for myself or society for life. However, I’m not sure if there is such a thing that they should fight for in their website that, as far as I know, non-Japanese people are running Perhaps I’m not that passionate or have not spent enough time to understand them.
Give me your thoughts.
#34
I’ve just started reading it. Thanks.
Great contribution Chun. This topic has been raised here in the past but discussion of the topic is generally surpressed by the blog host due to conflict of interest or unwillingness to face certain truths.
It normally results in banning or post deletion. Good luck.
Greetings Mr. Chun. I like to read interchanges between Koreans and expats here, naturally, since Mr. Marmot’s blog is about Korea.
Now I’m going to quote myself
“You might want to separate the obviously shrill negative comments from ones that have a basis in what’s actually going on in Korea, opinions that even many Koreans might share.”
When I do this reading comments here, I can see pretty clearly who has something relevant or sensible to say. My Korean friends and associates share some of the opinions expressed here (and sometimes don’t) because Koreans are not as homogeneous in their outlook as some people make out. In fact, I hear far more critical statements about Korean society from Koreans, to the point that I tell them that a lot of the same problems/faults occur in other countries as well.
If you’re just trolling for a response with this “anger and hatred” thing, shame on you, but if you honestly want to know why some people comment here (speaking for myself), please re-read my comment up there.
Mr. Chun, I don’t believe that there is “hatred” as such directed by others toward Korea. I believe that it is the opposite effect.
That is, i appears that it is in fact the non Koreans feel hated by Koreans, not vice versa.
Everything they do and are is subjected to comparative criticism. There is an almost desperate need to put others down to build oneself up in Korea that does not exist in other countries, so far as I have observed. It is experienced as shocking, disconcerting and insulting to people of other cultures who have never before experienced the zero sum nationalism of Korea.
They feel personally slighted, disrespected, excluded, discriminated against and exploited, and regardless of the good faith attempts they make to befriend Korean people, ultimately, they encounter a glass wall.
What I find interesting is that so many of the foreigners who live and work in Korea are so generous minded, humane and diplomatic. But I believe the stress of bottling up the inequities they experience leads them to let off stem online.
46:
“Would you tell me what is the purpose or goal of Occidentalism?”
Of course, shakuhachi will tell you that Occidentalism exists to “raise awareness” of the biases not portrayed in the Korean media “to make Korea a better place.” But it’s nothing more than a bitter man with a lot of petty grievances about the country. A lot of it, other than personal reasons, probably because of Korea’s dislike of Japan… admittedly the anti-Japanese/American sentiment in Korea is really annoying, but it must affect him in a great way for reasons I can’t explain. I mean, why else would he justify wartime Japan’s imperialism and use of comfort women (of course, trying to look scholarly at the same time… but how many people buy that)? Let’s not forget the endless articles and arguments of “Takeshima” (although most of this is done by Gerry Bevers), which he is very well aware of is an emotional issue in Korea. If you don’t believe me, just check out his wonderful FAQ… he knows he’s annoying people, yet he continues to do it… he must get great kicks out of it. Fortunately, most of the people who frequent and comment on his site nowadays are losers with the same childish bitterness.
Personally, I don’t see why he’s doing it, or if he actually believes it’s gonna change anything (if he is truly doing it for an honorable cause)… but if he wants to waste his money for that, then that’s his call.
Michael: “Koreans are not as homogeneous in their outlook as some people make out. In fact, I hear far more critical statements about Korean society from Koreans, to the point that I tell them that a lot of the same problems/faults occur in other countries as well.”
While you will hear Koreans make self-depreciating comments when in a reflective mood from time to time, one trait most share is an “us vs. them mentality.” Koreans are conditioned to believe that all things Korean are under siege from the outside world. If Americans are born with an innate sense of guilt (original sin), Koreans are born with an innate sense of defensiveness that causes us to act offensively, reflexively.
#51
Michael wrote:
“If you’re just trolling for a response with this “anger and hatred” thing, shame on you”
I don’t have time to be trolling. I’m reading each answer, which is different from each other, for my question that I have had quite for a while. If you don’t like my question, you don’t need to comment on it. Thanks for your own answers, anyway.
@51: You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
Jean is simply typing “Deleted (off topic)” and then posting. Apparently he thinks that’s funny. I’m going to delete his (nonsense) comments for a little longer, then put this idiot on the ban list.
#53
#51 should be #49.
Sorry.
#55
For a reason that I don’t know, numbers are changing. I was correcting my own post.
The need to delete nonsense comments like those posted by Jean, and the effect it has on the numbering of comments, is the very reason it’s stupid to address replies as #53, #51, or whatever.
Learn to use the <blockquote> html tags, and then include the quoted text to which you’re replying.
We did have a laugh about this. How about just putting him on the ban list.
Brendon Carr:
Good suggestion. Now we’ll know who’s really being insulted!
Chun:
I’m no expert, but from what I’ve seen in poking around, it’s mostly unhelpful trying to speak for all expats or all koreans. There is an interesting relationship that’s developed between the expats and Koreans who talk together a lot, especially on certain websites, but I think that in the end, it’s more a matter of perception than a true representation — if you go online to get a picture of the expat experience in Korea, you’ll have a wildly different view of expats’ lives in Korea than if you invite a few to your house for dinner and chat, or climb a mountain with some. Even then, it depends on which expat you meet, of course.
I take some comfort in the fact most of the people who have the worst time, and complain the most, don’t stay. They’re also fairly easy to spot, and from there, pretty easy to avoid.
Michael:
you’ve been logging on all this time? Yesterday morning was the first time I ever had to.
brendon:
Ahh. I see.
Well then I have a little message for Jean:
Deleted (I wish I were a troll but I can’t actually think of anything to say.)
Just watched The Kite Runner, great film, check it out.
This is a serious comment. I like Elgin and Brendon Carr’s contributions but if something I write is going to be deleted by anyone other than the Marmot or his sheriff then what is the point of taking the time to write a comment? “Jean” wrote a comment as a (clever) protest and then I poked fun at it. Why is this gone? Just because someone is annoyed? Let’s delete half the comments section then.
roboseyo:
What you said is basically right, but I wasn’t asking about general expat experience in South Korea. I do know that South Korea is not a very opened society. It is not an “international society,” either. Even without asking around, it is obvious that expat life is very tough there.
My question was narrowly about those who spend a lot of time online, criticizing or complaining about the country and its people. My questions was not about those criticism or complaints, which is understandable, but was about why they use so much time and energy doing it, which is sometimes overwhelming.
alec931, thank you for your opinion.
All good things in moderation, dear friend. Once is funny, twice a “callback” (a comedic staple). Fifteen or sixteen times, you become a real nuisance.
Look at it this way: “I blame Japan” is a fun catchphrase. But if I were to post 10 or 11 comments in succession, each of which only says “I blame Japan” and nothing else, I become a burden on everyone else.
Consideration for others: I blame Japan.
Chun: “My question was narrowly about those who spend a lot of time online, criticizing or complaining about the country and its people. My questions was not about those criticism or complaints, which is understandable, but was about why they use so much time and energy doing it, which is sometimes overwhelming.”
Mr. Chun, I believe my response addressed this the most directly. If they didn’t feel slighted, they wouldn’t need to blow off steam. The answer lies in how they are treated.
Mr Chun, I am the admin of Occidentalism, and I answered your previous question earlier in this thread, here. I hope you found the answer edifying.
As for Occidentalism, I guess you could say I saw that there was very little critical perspective on the English language blogosphere about Korea-Japan issues, and that Korean prejudices towards Japanese were being spread about to non-Koreans as well. In this situation, you have a choice - either speak out, or remain silent. I made the choice to speak out on this and other blogs, but more often than not was shouted down by the supporters of prejudice. Thus, Occidentalism was born. There I could offer a different perspective, and submit it to readers for debate or criticism.
Your question about not wasting time hating something you don’t like would be better directed towards your fellow Koreans. Why do they spend time and energy against Japan, a country that represented no threat to Korea for the last 63 years? Perhaps your time would be better spent asking about the cause (Korean extremism) rather than the result (Occidentalism).
shakuhachi wrote:
“Your question about not wasting time hating something you don’t like would be better directed towards your fellow Koreans. Why do they spend time and energy against Japan, a country that represented no threat to Korea for the last 63 years? Perhaps your time would be better spent asking about the cause (Korean extremism) rather than the result (Occidentalism).”
It is because I am well aware of what Koreans and Japanese think about each other. My question was about some expat commentors and blogs including Occidentalism, as I said.
@ Brendon re #67 (wait, no #66, now it’s #65, #64, shit! #63…)
He had only done it once or twice on the “open” thread (and a few times makes for good effect) and then I responded. You took down my responses, which were put up in good spirit. I don’t think “moderation” was a good reason to delete my comments.
To live in a foreign culture one needs to invest a huge amount of psychic energy. One willingly opens himself up to a completely different worldview and embraces it.
When all this energy that poured into understanding the culture, learning the language and customs, and attempting to befriend the people ends up meaning nothing because of a glass wall, there is going to be a profound disappointment that results in hurt and indignation.
After all this good will, insult is added to injury, and the expat sees his county and culture publicly vilified and slandered (think of all the groundless anti-American demonstrations over the years - the nonsense about the 2 schoolgirls and the nonexistent mad cow disease, etc.), then there is indignation.
I believe the indignation turns to anger when the expat has no forum in Korean society to express his opinion without being shouted down and suppressed.
So, if they let off a little steam online, that would appear to be a perfectly civilized way of expressing the frustration of being so profoundly disrespected.
I’ve been on both sides of the fence so I believe I understand. I hope you will take this as a sincere explanation.
Rather than delete contentious posts how about a moderator instead place a strike though the entire comment as a demonstration of the moderator not condoning what is expressed. Or maybe removing the comment and placing it in a sin bin where all the deleted comments can be viewed separately.
Just a few ideas.
I for one would like to discuss this current topic but am afraid to do so for fear of banning or comment deletion or being accused of trolling.
Jean, how about you stop antagonizing the management? It was funny at first when I recognized what you were doing, but you have taken it too far. And if you really are a banned commenter, then go away.
Jean — Don’t be a putz and you have nothing to fear from me. There is no deletion of comments due to content, provided the content is even slightly meaningful.
I’m a McCain supporter (hell, I’m even a fundraiser), and I just sprung the wrongheaded and unfair anti-Palin comment by “michael”, above, from the spam trap (the spam trap, and the possibility of comments getting out of embargo there, is another reason not to reply to “#59″ or any other number). Disagreement with the content of your comment will never get me — or the Marmot or any other administrator, I’d suppose — to delete your comment. The Marmot’s Hole is a free-speech community.
Be a dick, though, and all bets are off. Climb down off the cross and admit that your “Comment deleted” gag, while funny once, was nothing more than a nuisance when repeated over and over. Dazzle us instead with your trenchant observations — don’t just blurt “First!” or “I Can Haz Cheezburger”.
Again, I blame Japan.
shakadentalism wrote:
“I guess you could say I saw that there was very little critical perspective on the English language blogosphere about Korea-Japan issues, and that Korean prejudices towards Japanese were being spread about to non-Koreans as well. In this situation, you have a choice - either speak out, or remain silent. I made the choice to speak out on this and other blogs”
“Perhaps your time would be better spent asking about the cause (Korean extremism) rather than the result (Occidentalism).”
Could anyone else explain to me how Korean extremism and their “critical perspective on Korea-Japan issues” inspires Occidentalism to harass Arudou Debito or write about Korean cults in the UK?
Some of the negative feelings might be simple human nature. When people (non-Koreans) are bombarded on pretty much a daily basis about how great Korea is and how great Koreans are (valid or otherwise) there may be a tendency to point out the deficiencies.
Some do it more tactfully than others though….
Mizar5:
I have to thank you for your explanation.
The answer for my question seems to be way simpler than I thought. Many things are now clearer than before.
Let me make it clear that my question was not about expat bloggers and commentors generally. I just couldn’t understand certain expat commentors and blogs related to Korean and Japan because I have never seen such things anywhere else. For example, looking at debates in Occidentalism, I couldn’t, and still don’t, find a good reason to spend such time and energy on the blog, whether it is anti-Korean or anti-Japanese.
I got these questions more than one year ago, reading posts here, but haven’t had a chance to ask here about them because I had an insanely busy year.
I happened to have time to post this question, and thank you for the thoughts on the issues that I brought up.
I agree with you that Jean took it too far, but my comments were also deleted. That and no hat tips has taken the fun out of the comments section for me. Time to focus on other things I guess.
The Goat, I would say someone wanted to get some sort of confirmation from you or expats. Korean natives don’t say that to each other. If someone keeps saying that, it will be very annoying to Koreans.
Mr. Chun, you are very welcome. It’s a pleasure to correspond with you.
I was going to admit that the “Comment deleted” gag, while funny once, was nothing more than a nuisance when repeated over and over, but then decided to write the above comment and deleted this one. Since I agree with you that it was funny but then got annoying.
Kinda like comment deletion in a R.Elgin thread. It seems I have not been banned and am appreciative of the fact. I will endeavor not to antagonize the management in the future. I also promise not to say anything that may annoy or offend anybody.
Maybe not a bombardment…how about a steady stream. People react differently to that. I know that these kind of things use to bother me but now I look at it as an opportunity to have some fun.
I really don’t think that this is limited to just Korea though. I have encountered lots of people (in Korea) from other countries that do the same thing.
“I also promise not to say anything that may annoy or offend anybody.”
Imagine. If you could get the same pledge from McCain/Palin, there would be nothing left of their campaign.
I disagree with this way of thinking. Many times, all it takes is empathy, insight and a credit card.
I would also mention the lesson that talks of walking the extra mile with one that treats us poorly. It is not out of weakness but out of understanding of the human condition and the weakness in seeing others through ideas or false notions when what is really needed is to see others plainly, with no malice, for what they are at that point in time.
Paul of Tarsus said “Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink . . . Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Rom.12: 20-21) Originally Paul was a self-righteous Pharisee who thought he was doing God’s will by imprisoning and killing Christians. Then he met Jesus on the Damascus Road. He was changed by the experience and received a new world-view. This experience severed the ties of hate and blood that unwittingly bound Paul to those people he thought were bad. Likewise, by focusing upon the injustices that one receives while living in Korea (or any where), perhaps that person is allowing the ignorance of others to bring them down to a level of hell that is called hatred. If one could raise others higher by returning ignorance with understanding, how much higher could they rise and how much easier would life be if one was not tied to ignorance by anger?
What’s your point Elgin? Presumably, you have one.
Because to me it sounds like you’re being judgmental rather than understanding.
I don’t believe that anyone is condoning nursing a grudge, if that’s your claim.
Mr. Chun, didn’t mean to come off so harsh, it’s just that on the interwebs I can’t always tell who’s trolling…anyway I’ve got some time to kill today and so you have the great honor of receiving my opinion
Mr. Carr, my name really is Michael, no need for quotes. Your tolerance of opposing views is much appreciated, still, it’s neither “wrongheaded” nor “unfair” to be morally opposed to a candidate who advocates a full ban on abortion (do you agree with her?) and says she’s “open” to teaching Biblical creation in public school science classes. Add to that the McCain campaign’s cynicism in picking Palin (who is currently under investigation for abuse of power–that’s acceptable to you?) and McCain has lost my vote. In fact, I’m getting pissed off enough to donate to Obama.
Anyway, you’re obviously an intelligent fellow and I read your blog too, which has some great posts by you. Thanks for not going Taliban on me
Roboseyo: my bad, it was name and email before and Mr. Marmot went back to the wordpress login.
I like Carr, and I think I can understand why as a Republican he’s willing to overlook the offensive dishonesty of McCain/Palin.
Republicans believe govt is the problem except when it comes to generating special favors for the Lockheed Martins and the oil companies. To return taxpayer dollars to those who gave it and need it the most would mean less for the wealthy onces who line their pockets with it.
Trickle down economics is based on the premise that we can leech off the govt indirectly by catching a few crumbs from the wealthy recipients of our tax dollars.
It’s convoluted logic and because it makes no sense, the Republicans need decoys like Palin to distract the voters from the issues.
My theory about the Republican response is that many, many, conservative Repubs were disappointed that McCain won the primary, and as a sop the party operatives forced Palin on McCain, which in turn alienated/offended a whole lot of mainstream Republicans. Look at this rundown of quotes by Repubs who disapprove of Palin, which the Obama campaign will gladly use in their campaign:
http://marcambinder.theatlanti.....o_ment.php
The most telling quote to me is from Reagan’s speechwriter Peggy Noonan, who was caught on a live mic saying “The most qualified? No. I think they went for this, excuse me, ‘political bullshit’ about narratives.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories.....3733.shtml
And she should know. If McCain had picked a viable running mate, like Christie Todd Whitman, who has infinitely more experience than “caribou Barbie,” I’d still be considering him. As it stands, his judgment is questionable and now so is his candidacy.
Let’s face it. War is corporate welfare. So is offshore drilling. These things are daggers aimed at the hearts of the middle class who, after all, pay the price of reckless Republican deficit spending.
The middle class are paying the price in wage stagnation, lost jobs, disintigrating corporate competitiveness, rising gas prices, the mortgage crisis, the weak dollar, underperforming volitile financial markets, lack of affordable health care, the breakdown in the assurance of the safety of food, medicine and consumer goods, declining educational standards, and the loss of their sons to a dishonest and unnecessary war.
When holding fast to these policies is redefined as “change,” one can only hope “we don’t get fooled again.”
Wow, away from my house just now, popped into a PC Bang and searched for Marmot Hole and the main listing was Wikipedia.
Now famous enough to be listed on Wiki - congrats Robert.
Mizar — We agree on so much, but I can’t disagree more with your assessment of the Republicans. It’s way too cynical, and I’m a cynic at heart! And anyway, it’s incorrect to describe me as a Republican. The last political party to which I registered an affiliation is the Democratic Party, in 1992, and the last political donation I made was to John Edwards, in 2004. I have, however, voted for Bob Dole and for George Bush, with a protest vote for Ralph Nader in between because I don’t think American government should be the hands of a hereditary caste.
I am a libertarian, or a “South Park Republican” at worst: I approve of gun ownership, freedom of religion, free speech, free markets, porno, narcotics, prostitution, gay marriage (why should they get to have all the fun?), big corporations and small business. Wal-Mart is our friend; the labor unions are not.
Taxes, takings, welfare, licenses, zoning and regulations make me frown. Hippies, tree-huggers, Code Pink and race hustlers/”community organizers” upset me — because they want to impose their whack-job values on me and you. I hate Communists and socialists of all stripes. Fuck them.
At the same time, I believe the United States of America is the best country in the world, and Americans have been blessed by reception of the English language and the English common law, plus the talents of so many dynamic migrants from around the world who are drawn to our culture. And I approve of American power as a moderating influence in the world, and a historical force for the advancement of good. The Earth is a better place thanks to the efforts of the American servicemember. Unremitting opposition to socialism is America’s historic calling. In this respect I agree with the neo-conservative agenda.
There are a lot of wavering, independent voters out there in the middle, and the Democrats ought to seek ways to attract them. But unfortunately, what they’re selling has been recognized as B.S. since 1918.
michael — I like Sarah Palin. She’s very attractive and also very smart. As have I followed conservative politics more closely since the left became unhinged, I’m more familiar with Palin’s name than you are. She’s been a rising star for the Republican bench for a while now. The other guy I personally like a lot is Michael Steele — they’ve got to find some office to get him elected into.
Neither the President of the United States nor his Vice President has any control over the curriculum offered in any public school. If the parents of the Wasilla school board want to teach creationism to their children as an “alternative” to natural selection, that’s their choice — so long as it’s offered in a so-called fair and balanced way. At any rate, simply being a Christian should not be a disqualification from office.
Investigation of allegations against a person strikes me as entirely fair. But since allegations are so easy to make, let’s hold off on forming judgments until the investigation is complete. As for me, if the story is that she hassled a shitbird state trooper because he beat her sister, that seems to be an entirely appropriate abuse of power to me. Screw with my family, you’ll get it too.
On abortion: It is an evil act which should be undertaken only to prevent a greater evil. It’s a lot like war in that respect, and I hope my own family never has to deal with the issue. Abortion troubles me personally, but I don’t think it ought to be bright-line unlawful and it sure as hell ought not to be a litmus test for the “single-issue voter”. The world is much more complex than that. Still, because a fetus is in truth a human being, our society ought to protect that person’s interests through some forum of regulation.
Vote Republican in 2008. Maybe one day the Democratic Party will wake up from its forty-year (seventy-five year?) flirtation with socialism, and I can return to the flock. Or maybe I’ll register as a Republican. But for now, we cannot trust the Democrats.
testing 1 ,2 ,3.
Hmmm. my blockquote worked, but how to italicize it?
Brendan, we seem to agree on most of the things you wrote about, but there are a couple of things that I would take issue with, that being -
Surely you are not deceiving yourself that the primary motivation of “dynamic migrants” (and what about the ones that are way less than dynamic?) is to know American culture. The incentive is financial, and the lifestyle associated with that. There are people in Australia that say the exact same thing, and they are as wrong as you are.
American influence, when it is a moderating influence is fine, but it isn’t when it is fuc*ed up, like the invasion of Iraq. The neo-conservative agenda is one of frightening people into wanting war. Their strategy is frighteningly similar to that of a certain European country in the late 1930’s. Says Goering at Nuremberg -
In exactly the same way, the patriotism of people that were questioning the reasoning behind the war was said to be lacking, and they were denounced for exposing the country to danger. Neo-conservatism = fascism.
As a teacher of children of immigrants I agree. Immigrants don’t have to love American culture. As long as they obey our laws and earn their keep, they’re welcome to come.
Right on all counts, but unfortunately, that is why nations get entangled in unnecessary wars. I don’t think any of Bush’s top aides has a child serving in Iraq or Afghanistan nor do many members of Congress.