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Well, Now That You Ask…

Discussing Dokdo (that’s right, Roboseyo, DOKDO) in the KT, Michael Stevens writes:

Is this just a matter of national pride for Korea or are there underlining circumstances that most outsiders just don’t comprehend. My guess is that for the majority of Koreans that go to work each day or who live their life like the rest of us, the issue of the Dokdo islets is a matter of nationalistic pride.

This is understandable since as one Korean-American put it, how would America feel if Canada started claiming American territory as its own. Despite the fact that this may sound totally irrational to most of us, this is exactly what is happening to Korea, one of its neighbors has come in and laid claim to something that has historically been Korean territory for hundreds of years if not longer.

Michael, this is why God made Wikipedia. The United States currently has five — count ‘em, FIVE — pending territorial disputes with those land-grabbing rat bastards to the north. They would be:

As all its unfortunate neighbors know, Canada, like Japan, has a long history of territorial aggrandizement — just ask Denmark, a fellow victim of naked Canadian aggression.

PS: The Kurils are not uninhabited.

PPS: This has me thinking — clearly, there’s room for international solidarity here. I say we gather up funds to buy a full-page ad in the Chosun Ilbo bringing attention to the Canadian militarists’ unjust and destabilizing occupation of the Machias Seal Island. After all, first it’s Machias Seal Island, then it’s Detroit… which, come to think of it, might not be such a bad thing.

“When Machias Island was in Harper’s Land,
Let my puffins go.”

About the author: Just the administrator of this humble blog.

  • Curious

    Lets not forget how the US exagerated the size of Alaska in order to steal Canadian fishstocks.

  • NES

    And those bastard Canooks burnt down the Presidential Mansion! ;)

  • NES

    …and Linkd, I’m holding you personally responsible for setting the President’s house on fire. Expect 10 more post about this on every thread for the next month! :D

  • http://www.palbee.com mateomiguel

    You don’t understand Korea’s unique sentiments, because you are an outsider. Silly outsider, you will never understand our unique Han. Just smile, nod, and let us do whatever we want because we’re special.

  • Wedge

    Good, more ammo to bring up during the next Dokdo diatribe I have to suffer. The Gulf of [Dastardly] Mexico already makes a great argument when they pull up something on the Sea of Japan.

  • NES

    You mean the Gulf of America. ;)

  • Billy

    * Machias Seal Island
    * Strait of Juan de Fuca
    * Dixon Entrance
    * Alaska-Yukon Dispute in the Beaufort Sea
    * Northwest Passage

    hmmm, We’ll give you the top four in exchange for California, Oregon, and Washington States. That’s a four for one deal, which is more than fair. (c’mon, you know if we legalize weed first, they’ll all want to come up anyways)

    but that Northwest Passage is ours, dammit!

  • http://www.korealawblog.com Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog)

    It’s really pathetic how nobody can write anymore; doubly so since so many of you characters are instructors of the English language or otherwise earn your daily bread by supposedly being better with English than the locals. “Underlining circumstances”?! Sheesh.

  • a-letheia

    Great post, Robert… Nice edge.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    hmmm, We’ll give you the top four in exchange for California, Oregon, and Washington States.

    Hmm… three blue states for puffins. Where do we sign?

  • gbevers

    “There is no God but God, and Muhammad is his Prophet.”

    It is understandable that Moslems do not like Christians because Islam was around hundreds of years before Christianity. How would Americans feel if a Canadian came up to them and started claiming that they would not be rewarded with seventy-two virgins in heaven for blowing themselves up in a Jewish cafe? Americans would find the Canadian claim totally irrational, right?

    By the way, I know when Muhammad was born.

  • Wedge

    “The Korea Times: Providing dipshit foreigners a forum since 1953.” (Apologies to Breen, Lankov and Jackson.)

  • Fan Death Avenger

    Brendon, of course he’s underlining the circumstances. They’re very important. You have to underline important things.

  • Michael

    Canuckistan can have Seal Dokdo and the Strait of Jose de Fooka Dokdo and we’ll take everything inside the Arctic Circle.

    BTW Mr. Bevers, WTF? I have no idea why you’re invoking Islam, but Christianity predates it by about 600 years.

  • gbevers

    Thank you, Michael. I was waiting for you or someone like you.

    Japanese claims on Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo) predate Korea’s by about 300 years.

  • http://8887eac joyboy

    “O candidate, you should know your native land, and the people’s
    problems, try to understand.”

    Eliet Spitzer + American candidate = New York looks richer on the
    Canadian side.

  • joyboy

    “O candidate, you should know your native land, and the people’s
    problems, try to understand.”

    Eliet Spitzer = New York looks richer on the
    Canadian side, so let’s claim it.

  • NES

    It’s like the Saudis claiming to own the Kaaba when we all know the Jews annexed it in 1905.

  • NES

    #15 gbevers

    Japanese claims on Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo) predate Korea’s by about 300 years.

    1905 was that long ago?!

  • user-81

    “Japanese claims on Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo) predate Korea’s by about 300 years.”

    Did anyone tell the Japanese?

    In Season 2 of “Heroes” Hiro Nakamura goes back to the early 17th century to make sure Tokugawa Ieyasu dots his kanjis properly so that the Japan can gain clear control of the islets and ensure fishing grounds and hydrocarbon energy resources for many decades.

    Unfortunately, this prevents him from getting back to NYC in time to stop the evil someone or other from nuking the Big Apple.

  • Michael

    Uh, Mr. Bevers, glad to be of service or something, I guess….

    Allah! Allah! Allah! Allah! Allah! Booooom :)

  • gbevers

    NES,

    The article said that Dokdo has been Korean territory for hundreds of years, but that is incorrect. Korea only started claiming the rocks in the late 1940s, and there is no evidence that Koreans ever traveled there until the Japanese started carrying them there on Japanese fishing boats in the early 1900s.

    The Japanese incorporated Liancourt Rocks into a Japanese province in 1905, but they were considered unincorporated Japanese territory before that, and Japan has maps of the rocks that date back to the mid 1600s while Korean has no maps of the rocks before Japan incorporated them in 1905.

    By the way, I used the Islam-Christianity analogy because Michael Stevens is supposedly a Biblical Studies student. My point was that if he could screw up dates, then so could I.

  • Sperwer

    And those bastard Canooks burnt down the Presidential Mansion!

    Nope, that would have been the British. Canada didn’t come into existence as a nation until 1867 (while the US was busy with internecine matters); and the troops that torched DC didn’t even come from Britain’s colonies in what is now Canada but from sailors conscripted in Britain itself, from Marine regiments raised from the slave populations in Bermuda and in Maryland liberated by Vritain in other campaigns and a couple of regiments released by Wellingto from the Pensinsular War after his great victories there earlier in 1812.

  • http://www.yeomso.blogspot.com The Goat

    I’m sorry but the historical ownership line of reasoning is ass. If you can’t figure out why you have some severe problems…

    Unless they are MINE MINE MINE! I have never heard of those places but they are mine dammit!

    Oh wait…I don’t even want my region to be a part of Canada….

  • http://briandeutsch.blogspot.com Brian

    Machias Seal Island is a part of US territory. The Japanese government must acknowledge this fact.

  • NES

    #22 gbevers

    Sorry, I thought it was a contest for who can make the most silly, nonsensical statement. ;)

    Of course Korea doesn’t have any such maps. The Japanese burned them all with the history books during the occupation.

  • hitest

    “The United States currently has five — count ‘em, FIVE — pending territorial disputes with those land-grabbing rat bastards to the north”

    :D To be more accurate, I believe four of the five disputed territories are oceanic regions

    Also, parts of Canada are south of the US…

    so perhaps you should have said, “those ocean-grabbing bastards who are mostly to the north ;P “

  • gbevers

    NES,

    No, Japanese did not burn Korea’s old maps. Korea has plenty of maps, and they show that the island Korea claims was Dokdo was actually Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo, which is 2.2 kilometers off Ulleungdo’s east shore. Also, the records of the Joseon kings are very complete and thorough, and none of them mentioned anything about Dokdo being Korean territory.

    Actually, it was Korean officials who burned documents, not the Japanese. I saw either a KBS documentary, where an old man at DaePungheon near Uljin say that Korean officials a few decade came and burned old documents related to Ulleungdo inspections during the Joseon Dynasty. DaePungheun was the place Ulleungdo inspectors waited for the right weather conditions to sail to Ulleungdo.

    I wonder why Korean officials would burn any historic documents, but I am especially curious to know why they specifically burned old documents related to Ulleungdo inspections.

  • Curious

    #8,
    Yes, it’s pathetic. Some people really should try to be better at English.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Nope, that would have been the British.

    Stan Rogers said Canadians burnt down the White House, and if Stan Rogers said it, it must be true.

  • NES

    Hey User, add Spewer and G. Bevers to the list of people who don’t know what (winky) means.

    And here I thought that the War of 1812 was fought against Canada. My bad. (winky, winky)

  • user-81

    Okay!

    List of People Who Should Get the Stick Up Their Ass Surgically Removed Once Obama Inaugurates Socialized Medicine Like Canada’s

    Sperwer (aka Spewer)
    G. Bevers
    Mizar5

    Who am I missing? Let’s throw in wjk for good measure.

    ;)

  • madar

    Japanese claims on Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo) predate Korea’s by about 300 years.

    I love this idea that, years before any universally recognized maritime law, anyone believes that any state or king was trying lay claim to two rocks that, were at best, shipping hazards!

  • Zonath

    hmmm, We’ll give you the top four in exchange for California, Oregon, and Washington States.

    Wow. Are y’all really that desperate to have Americans running the show up there in Canada? After all, those three states have a bigger population than the whole of Canada — I’m sure Prime Minister Schwartzeneggar would sign the treaty of annexation in no time, making that 51st state designation official. :P

  • http://alec931.wordpress.com alec931

    gbevers @22:

    “By the way, I used the Islam-Christianity analogy because Michael Stevens is supposedly a Biblical Studies student. My point was that if he could screw up dates, then so could I.”

    Now really… Did you expect ANYONE to get your “point” simply by what you wrote in #15? You should be more clear in your attempts to sound witty. Your messages are as clear as mud. ;)

  • NES

    G. Bevers

    Books burned during the Gyeongbok Palace fires. Also, Masatake Terauchi had over 200,000 books burned, including history and geography books. Then, The [Japanese] Agency for Editing of Korean History also confiscated and burned history books during the time they rewrote Korean history to their liking. (Notice I’m not including “winky” this time.)

    The disputed history of Dokdo doesn’t really matter just like other undisputed maps from the past don’t authoritatively determine territorial boundaries of modern countries today. Japan owned it from 1905 up until Korea took control after WWII. Tough shit.

  • Austin

    Disputed territory has no value and can not be exploited without risk, unless the issue of ownership/profit split is first settled.
    In order to exploit the energy resources in the Timor sea, Australia and East Timor had to come to an agreement on how to split the booty. Of course negotiating an agreement is the sensible thing to do.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    List of People Who Should Get the Stick Up Their Ass Surgically Removed Once Obama Inaugurates Socialized Medicine Like Canada’s

    They might have to wait quite a bit to get the procedure done, though, unless they skip across the border into Mexico.

  • http://roboseyo.blogspot.com roboseyo

    1. Stan Rogers is unimpeachable, his words are holy Writ, so if he says it, we must have done it.

    2. Fine, Robert. Since you asked so nicely (even though I’m still not on your sidebar), here it is, then.

    I think the thing about Dokdo, from the expat perspective, the reason it riles things up here so much, is this:

    Dokdo, in a single issue, epitomizes, brings out, and simultaneously encapsulates EVERYTHING that baffles, frustrates, and sometimes maddens expats about living in Korea, and dealing with Korea. I don’t care to expand on it more than that, but there you have it. My final view.

    re:
    Machias Seal Island
    Strait of Juan de Fuca
    Dixon Entrance
    Alaska-Yukon Dispute in the Beaufort Sea
    Northwest Passage

    those bitches are OURS, mothefucka! now back off or we’ll be sending the coast guard to fire flares across your bow!

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Dokdo, in a single issue, epitomizes, brings out, and simultaneously encapsulates EVERYTHING that baffles, frustrates, and sometimes maddens expats about living in Korea, and dealing with Korea. I don’t care to expand on it more than that, but there you have it. My final view.

    That, or it’s just kind of goofy.

    those bitches are OURS, mothefucka! now back off or we’ll be sending the coast guard to fire flares across your bow!

    Go right ahead. And don’t think we haven’t noticed that Machias Seal Island has the only manned lighthouse in eastern Canada. These provocations seem fun now, but as the Georgians recently learned with the Russians, you keep messing with the bull, you’ll get the horns. Don’t be surprised if the puffins begin agitating for independence and start flying around with US passports.

  • Sperwer

    Stan Rogers said Canadians burnt down the White House, and if Stan Rogers said it, it must be true.

    Yeah, and Goguryeo was “Korean”!

  • gbevers

    NES wrote:

    Books burned during the Gyeongbok Palace fires. Also, Masatake Terauchi had over 200,000 books burned, including history and geography books. Then, The [Japanese] Agency for Editing of Korean History also confiscated and burned history books during the time they rewrote Korean history to their liking. (Notice I’m not including “winky” this time.)

    Gerry writes: What Gyeongbok Palace fire are you talking about? The one during the Hideyoshi Invasion in 1592? Do you think that was meant to erase Dokdo history or even Korean history? Or was that just how wars were done back then?

    As for the “Joseon Yeoksa Pyeonjip Hoi” (朝鮮史編修會), that means “Joseon History Compilation Committee,” not “Editing Committee.” And as far as I know, there is no proof that they burned old Korean historical documents.

    HERE is what Wikipedia says about that “widespread tale”:

    A widespread tale says that the Japanese colonial government burnt thousands of Korean history books which had negative historical references about the Japanese, such as the wokou. However, Japan denies this accusation. The colonial government ordered confiscation of 51 different books on November 19, 1910, shortly after the annexation of Korea. The complete list of all 51 books are known,[3] which consisted of textbooks, religious and political books, and history books written in more recent times. However, most of these books could not be completely destroyed and survive today.[3]

    NES claimed:

    Of course Korea doesn’t have any such maps. The Japanese burned them all with the history books during the occupation.

    Gerry writes: There was no silly “wink” on NES’s stupid claim. He wrote it just hoping someone might believe it as the reason Korea has no maps or documents to support her Dokdo claim.

  • Notlob

    those bitches are OURS, mothefucka! now back off or we’ll be sending the coast guard to fire flares across your bow!

    Yes, literally true. “The coast guard” singular. I think Canada is down to one dude, patrolling the whole country’s waters in a canoe. And the NDP is looking to cut his budget first chance they get.

  • JohnT

    I personally love it when Koreans throw temper tantrums over various issues like beef and Takeshima.

    It all makes them look stupid and petty. It’s too bad that the very few good ones who aren’t like this have to be included in the mess.

    I say good for them. They are showing the world what they are really like to deal with.

    Long live the extremes of Korean nationalism and xenophobia!!

    Wrap yourself in that warm coat of victimhood Korea and relive your “sad” history day after day.

    It’s helped Korea soo much in the last ten years or so! Keep driving out foreign capital and keep creating an unfriendly business atmosphere here.

    The nationalism created over Dokdo can help you achieve these goals!!

    Who wants to go to India, China, Vietnam and/or Singapore? What’s that? Foreign investors that are leaving Korea!! Let Dokdo help you get there!

  • dww

    “Don’t be surprised if the puffins begin agitating for independence and start flying around with US passports.”

    ha! that made me laugh out loud.

  • mjw

    robert,

    secretly, you’re thanking this dipshit for the opportunity to fleece. i sensed your glee this afternoon.

    nonetheless, heckuva fleece.

  • user-81

    “Wrap yourself in that warm coat of victimhood Korea and relive your “sad” history day after day.”

    Somebody sure is reliving a sad something day after day.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    i sensed your glee this afternoon.

    Hey, it’s not every day you get to use puffins to comedic effect.

  • slim

    Anybody got any Puffin recipes?

  • user-81
  • Tmartin

    Well, Korea was a protectorate of Qing during that time. What do the Chinese maps say on the issue?

    Erhm…guess no one remembers that the Chinese – Japanese War was fought over Korea.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War

  • Ililnine

    http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200809/200809010011.html

    Korea is now moving in on Canada’s polar regions. I, as a Canadian, cannot let this stand.

    노쓰폴 우리땅!~

  • pasha

    Strait of Juan de Fuca

    There was a military stand-off over the San Juan Islands between the USA and Canada back in 1859. Called The Pig War after its only casualty, the border dispute was eventually settled in the USA’s favor by Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany.

    Sorry Roboseyo, but the Germans say the San Juan Islands are ours! ;)

  • anjinsan

    Yes, I as an American wish we as a nation had something as
    stupid as Dokdo to cry about, rally behind, make T-shirts
    and coffee mugs and slogans about, and to always take up space in our newspapers, magazines, and nightly news reports.
    I feel so deprived. Hmm. . . . . how about:
    “L.A. is OUR LAND!!!!” or “Dry Cleaning is OUR INDUSTRY!!!!”
    or “Outlet Malls are OUR PLACES!!!!!”
    (Hmmm, none seem to add up to what I’m looking for. Oh well.)

  • squatch

    If the three Pacific states are lost, then it’s over for America…creationism will be taught in schools as “science”, gay marriage and abortion will be forever banned, and smoking pot will never be legalized.

  • Billy

    @ 54:

    How about, “Puffin’s are OUR new fast food!” ?

  • Granfalloon

    I once saw a sign that said “I love Dog Do.” True story.

  • Arghaeri

    anymore, anymore, anymore, anymore!!!

  • Arghaeri

    “Also, parts of Canada are south of the US…

    so perhaps you should have said, “those ocean-grabbing bastards who are mostly to the north ;P “”

    If you count Alaska, then “those ocean grabbing bastards who’re kind of in between…”

  • Arghaeri

    “making that 51st state designation official.”

    Eh, i thought the UK was the “51st state”

  • http://roboseyo.blogspot.com roboseyo

    Pasha:

    sorry. Stan Rogers supercedes kaisers.

    Robert:

    Yeah. It is goofy. That’s part of the maddening glory of dokdo, and a BIG part of why it encapsulates everything that baffles foreigners about Korea — that from the outside it looks so outrageously goofy, but you’re Not Allowed To Point That Out, and this goofy issue is handled so humorlessly, so bloody earnestly, by those finger-cutting, pheasant-killing, teaching-their-children-to-hate-japaning insiders. If you can divest totally from the topic, it becomes absolutely brilliant people-watching-unbelievably hilarious, but that’s a big if when even my good Korean friends bring up dokdo, not because they want to actually talk about it, but because they want to HEAR me parroting the Korean views on the topic, and get upset if I take any different tack. (I’m never talking about Japan again with that clown.)

    Yup. Goofy as hell. Goofy as a circus train wreck, or the duel with the black knight in Search For The Holy Grail.

  • Mr. Knox

    I’m a little unclear on this ‘puffins’ banter. Is this some sort of new slur describing one with a little too much sugar in the tank, as in, “Yo punk mo fo, you be puffins’. Or is this really some new culinary treat, as in, “I’ll take a Veggie Puffins with a cup of coffee.’

    Secondly, how are/is puffins related to the Dokdo debate/

  • cm

    I’m surprise this topic is still a hot topic here. As if anything has changed that we don’t know.

    Perhaps Marmot should be focusing more on the Korean economy which is facing another financial crisis, which in turn will make a direct impact on everyone.

    Korea is going broke, and all points to another government mismanagement.

  • Mizar5

    cm, good point. I’d like to hear more about your views on the subject.

  • Gubook

    Bad comparision. Canada doesn’t have an imperial history with the U.S.

    For a generation of people who are still alive, Japan’s claims stir a very different type of emotion.

    Dokdo’s also apparently a bastion of natural gas and is surrounded by rich fishing waters.

    This is all probably old news, but point is you’re not funny.

  • Zonath

    Eh, i thought the UK was the “51st state”

    In the part of the States where I’m from, it’s really more common to talk about Canada as being the 51st State… Anyhow, I think the UK would probably be more comfortable being a Puerto Rico-style commonwealth territory of the US. ;)

  • wjk, 검은 머리 외국인

    cm, are you ready to blame Lee Myungbak for Korea going broke??

    cm, go purchase 2 Hyundats, stat.

    if you actually want to help.

    rather than yap.

  • wjk, 검은 머리 외국인

    hyundai, wjk approved !

  • cm

    “cm, are you ready to blame Lee Myungbak for Korea going broke??”

    What’s Lee got to do with what Kim Dae Jung (the mess he created with household credit which still haunts Korea to this day), and Roh Mu Hyun (the mess he created when he chased away all the foreign investors with xenophobic policies)?

    Lee did do one thing wrong – which was trying to defend the currency by wasting away tens of billions of foreign reserves. I predicted that move was going to be futile, and I was right.

  • user-81

    “hyundai, wjk approved!”

    Despite that endorsement I encourage people to buy Hyundais. ;)

  • http://www.korealawblog.com Brendon Carr (Korea Law Blog)

    Yes, it’s pathetic. Some people really should try to be better at English.

    Do tell us, Mr. English Teacha, what’s the syntactical difference between “better with” and “better at”?

  • Tripod

    I’m not an “English teacha”.

    First, go to http://www.collins.co.uk/corpus/CorpusSearch.aspx

    Search for ‘better+with’ and ‘better+at’. You’ll see that ‘better’ and ‘with’ are collocates when referring to a problem, a person, or an object.

    ‘Better’ and ‘at’ are used as collocates when referring to a skill or a school subject.

    Now, search for “better+with+English”. Doesn’t appear very common in written texts, does it?

    With a bit more digging I found some examples of it used as you did, but these were mostly texts written by people who speak English as their second language or used ‘English’ as an adjective…not to say that these were right or wrong.

  • user-81

    “better at” suggests English as a skill.
    “better with” suggests English as a tool

    I’ve seen both used by naked English speakers.

  • bumfromkorea

    I’ve seen both used by naked English speakers.

    I don’t even want to know… ;-)

  • Curious

    #73,

    One is better at a language, not better with it.

  • madar

    …but I’m sure its best when you have naked speakers.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Perhaps Marmot should be focusing more on the Korean economy which is facing another financial crisis, which in turn will make a direct impact on everyone.

    Bah, humbug.

    You’re just upset we’ve exposed your island and maritime border stealing ways, Canucki!

    I’m a little unclear on this ‘puffins’ banter. Is this some sort of new slur describing one with a little too much sugar in the tank, as in, “Yo punk mo fo, you be puffins’. Or is this really some new culinary treat, as in, “I’ll take a Veggie Puffins with a cup of coffee.’

    Don’t you know? Machias Seal Island — the American Dokdo, albeit one unjustly occupied by Canada — is home to as many as 3,000 puffins, all yearning to breath free as Americans living on American soil:

    http://www.machiassealisland.com/

    Please note the writing on the back of the tour boat:

    http://www.machiassealisland.com/govking.jpg

    USA! USA! USA!

  • Pingback: The Korean Economy Might Be Tanking… But That Won’t Free the Puffins | The Marmot's Hole

  • Arghaeri

    “Anyhow, I think the UK would probably be more comfortable being a Puerto Rico-style commonwealth territory of the US.”

    Nah, we want full membership, then we can get Gordon Brown on the presidential ticket and competing with Obama and McCain for the “worst loser ever to become president” competition.

  • Sirloinsteakpls

    I’m currently working in Japan, and this Dokdo issue is just about the dumbest thing I’ve seen.

    “Word on the street” is that the resurfacing of the Dokdo/Takeshima issue is because of the “hurt feelings” or the feeling of inferior felt by alot of Japanese men because of the Korean wave.

    Alot of Japanese women were absolutely captivated by the the kdramas and the men here really resented it.

  • Sirloinsteakpls

    I forgot to mention they are trying to repair the hurt pride of the younger generation by showing how powerful Japan is.

    Basically their individual identity got trashed so the govt boosts up the collective identity by sending Korea a swift reminder of its colonial past.

  • user-81

    “…but I’m sure its best when you have naked speakers.”

    I stand by my statement.

  • bumfromkorea

    @#77

    Oh boy… are we going to conduct “Operation Human Shield” by Battalion 5 and “Operation Get Behind the Darkies” by Battalion 14?

    Oh… Canada

    I wonder which one I belong to. ;-)

  • hitest

    #59 Arghaeri

    If you count Alaska, then “those ocean grabbing bastards who’re kind of in between…”

    Well given the expanse of Canada to the east of Alaska, then ” those ocean grabbing bastards who’re kind of inbetween but mostly north and somewhat east…

    #75 Curious

    “One is better at a language, not better with it.”

    Apparently according to many Koreans the perception is, economically speaking, regarding English language competency, your future perspectives are “better with it”… ;)

  • http://www.occidentalism.org shakuhachi

    I’m currently working in Japan, and this Dokdo issue is just about the dumbest thing I’ve seen.

    “Word on the street” is that the resurfacing of the Dokdo/Takeshima issue is because of the “hurt feelings” or the feeling of inferior felt by alot of Japanese men because of the Korean wave.

    Alot of Japanese women were absolutely captivated by the the kdramas and the men here really resented it.

    That is right. Bae Young-Jun gives Japanese men the “feeling of inferior”. “Word on the street” is that the Japanese men will burn Korean flags and massacre animals in front of the Korean embassy in Tokyo.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Or drive around in big black vans with loudspeakers or firebomb lawmaker homes.

    Oh, wait, Japanese actually do those things. My bad.

  • user-81

    “That is right. Bae Young-Jun gives Japanese men the “feeling of inferior”. “Word on the street” is that the Japanese men will burn Korean flags and massacre animals in front of the Korean embassy in Tokyo.”

    Argumentum ad malum et aurantium. Feelings of anger and frustration stem from different sources. The Korean Wave is like the British Invasion. The Japanese wave was a real invasion.

  • NES

    Gerry wrote: As for the “Joseon Yeoksa Pyeonjip Hoi” (朝鮮史編修會), that means “Joseon History Compilation Committee,” not “Editing Committee.” And as far as I know, there is no proof that they burned old Korean historical documents.

    HERE is what Wikipedia says about that “widespread tale”:

    A widespread tale says that the Japanese colonial government burnt thousands of Korean history books which had negative historical references about the Japanese, such as the wokou. However, Japan denies this accusation. The colonial government ordered confiscation of 51 different books on November 19, 1910, shortly after the annexation of Korea. The complete list of all 51 books are known,[3] which consisted of textbooks, religious and political books, and history books written in more recent times. However, most of these books could not be completely destroyed and survive today.[3]

    NES writes:
    Thank you, Gerry, for illustrating my point with the encyclopedia anybody can edit, er, I mean “compile.” Yesterday, the very same Wikipedia entry said “Agency for Editing of Korean History.” Today it says “Society for Compilation of Korean History.” Nice how people can edit, I mean “compile,” things to mean what they want. I wonder if the Japanese “compiled” Korean history to say what they wanted and then found it necessary to destroy books that said otherwise. The editing history in question for the Wikipedia entry is here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Society_for_Compilation_of_Korean_History&diff=235716446&oldid=235650536

    Tomorrow it might say “Society of Lovers and Protectors of the True Korean History” established by the “Korean Help and Relief Agency of Japan (1910 -1945).”

    BTW, the reference in the quote above from the Wikipedia entry is a blog rather than an acceptable academic source. Isn’t it hilarious that there are people out there who actually dedicate their pathetic lives to making blogs as a serious attempt to prove something that doesn’t matter based on their narrow interpretation of “evidence?” Oh, yeah. Sorry.

    You also might have included this from the same Wikipedia entry:

    The main objectives of this agency were to reduce the territory of ancient Korean states into the Korean Peninsula and to describe Gojoseon’s history as myth.[2],[3]

    Hurry and go “compile” that one out, Gerry! Hurry before somebody else sees!

    I know quite well that you like to argue the meaning of Chinese characters to give the connotation and meaning you desire for your viewpoint. The meaning of 편수 [you said "편집" (編輯)] is to “edit” and/or “compile.” [Perhaps "편집" was a Freudian slip for 偏執. :D ]

    편수(編修)
    http://endic.naver.com/endic.nhn?docid=2869080

    조선사편수회 [朝鮮史編修會]
    http://100.naver.com//100.nhn?docid=138719

    If you were attempting to be honest, you would have brought it up as an alternative meaning rather than the correct meaning. In the end, it doesn’t matter, so I see no need to engage in quibbling over the exact meaning of Chinese characters. It probably means both at the same time when attempting to make a crude understanding with a language like English. The Japanese could have called it anything they wanted to and you can translate it anyway you like, but it doesn’t change what their objective was and what they did.

    NES wrote: Books burned during the Gyeongbok Palace fires. Also, Masatake Terauchi had over 200,000 books burned, including history and geography books. Then, The [Japanese] Agency for Editing of Korean History also confiscated and burned history books during the time they rewrote Korean history to their liking. (Notice I’m not including “winky” this time.)

    Gerry wrote: What Gyeongbok Palace fire are you talking about? The one during the Hideyoshi Invasion in 1592? Do you think that was meant to erase Dokdo history or even Korean history? Or was that just how wars were done back then?

    Gerry, the plural of “fire” is “fires.” I don’t believe I said that it was done with the intention of erasing Dokdo history, did I? (Burn that straw man along with the books.) Historical documents were burned in the fires. We don’t know what was lost because it was burned a long time ago. Don’t read more into a statement than what is there. It’s not like I wrote it in Chinese.

    NES wrote: Of course Korea doesn’t have any such maps. The Japanese burned them all with the history books during the occupation.

    Gerry wrote: There was no silly “wink” on NES’s stupid claim. He wrote it just hoping someone might believe it as the reason Korea has no maps or documents to support her [sic] Dokdo claim.

    NES writes: Yep, no “winky” here:

    NES wrote (#26): #22 gbevers

    Sorry, I thought it was a contest for who can make the most silly, nonsensical statement. ;)

    Of course Korea doesn’t have any such maps. The Japanese burned them all with the history books during the occupation.

    It looks like you “compiled” out half of my statement in order to present your special perception of reality. [Note to User: Put an asterisk next to Gerry Bevers’ name and reference that it is twice now that he failed/refused to recognize “winky.” That's a "major trolling act." (winky, winky)]

    The preceding statement followed by “winky” should have clued you into the seriousness of the post. The supposed “claim” by me was a hyperbolic generalization meant to razz you. I don’t actually believe that the Japanese burned 100% of all Korean history books and maps during the occupation. The books in museums along with common sense clued me into that fact. I do believe that the Japanese did destroy many books and maps during the occupation and attempted to rewrite Korean history. I find it ironic when you and other apologists for Japan claim that Korea has no historical claim to Dokdo after Japan burned many historical documents during the occupation with the intent, as your beloved Wikipedia puts it, “…to reduce the territory of ancient Korean states into the Korean Peninsula…” We cannot know if maps with Dokdo were or were not included in those documents that were destroyed.

    You have to make some convoluted argument that Takeshima was “unincorporated territory” to explain away why they saw the need to annex their own territory in 1905. In this case, “unincorporated territory” is doublespeak for territory that wasn’t part of Japan but was terra nullius. The most educated statement on this thread thus far as to the historical claims to Dokdo/Takeshima is this:

    Madar wrote (#33): I love this idea that, years before any universally recognized maritime law, anyone believes that any state or king was trying lay claim to two rocks that, were at best, shipping hazards!

    Gerry wrote: [NES] wrote it just hoping someone might believe it as the reason Korea has no maps or documents to support her [sic] Dokdo claim.

    I thought only a woman could be a 무당. Did you use scapulimancy or did your familiar spirit help you divine my thoughts? I have no idea or care if Korea has any legitimate historical claim to Dokdo. It is a nonissue. You are obsessing over an unserious statement (that included a “winky” in the middle) to harp on because it is easier pickings than the more serious statement of my position with respect to Dokdo. This is my claim that you completely ignored:

    NES claimed (#36): The disputed history of Dokdo doesn’t really matter just like other undisputed maps from the past don’t authoritatively determine territorial boundaries of modern countries today. Japan owned it from 1905 up until Korea took control after WWII. Tough shit.

    Try disputing that statement.

    I’ll take it one step further: In the sovereign nation of Korea at the present time, Dokdo is lawfully the territory of the ROK. Furthermore, it is presently occupied by Korea. Disputes with Japan aside, try to accept the reality in your present location in time and space. You threw your job away due to an obsession over a nonissue. If you ask me, that’s more “finger chopping wacky” than throwing dead birds at an embassy.

    Thanks for the amusement,
    NES

  • user-81

    “[Note to User: Put an asterisk next to Gerry Bevers’ name and reference that it is twice now that he failed/refused to recognize “winky.” That's a "major trolling act." (winky, winky)]”

    Can you give me the link to the list, NES? I seem to have “compiled” it. ;)

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com The Korean

    NES @87,

    Men can indeed become a 무당. Male 무당 are called 박수, or 박수무당.

    Now we know what Gerry does for living!

  • http://briandeutsch.blogspot.com Brian

    54:

    It’s called college football.

  • http://www.occidentalism.org shakuhachi

    Or drive around in big black vans with loudspeakers or firebomb lawmaker homes.

    Oh, wait, Japanese actually do those things. My bad.

    Not even comparable. The level of support for these guys in Japan is precisely zero. The public do not like them and they are not seen as misguided patriots. Most of the home grown terrorism in Japan is left wing, not right wing, and many of those guys in the vans are yakuza fakers using the “right wing nationalist” line to extort money from business owners.

    The organisation that particular guy belonged to is 大日本同胞社. It is run by the Yakuza group called Sumiyoshikai (住吉会). It is a fake right wing group. Around a third of the members of sumiyoshikai are Korean, and so are a lot of the members of “Japanese right wing” groups. A typical Japanese organisation would have few or no non-Japanese members.

    The incidents are rare and are condemned by everyone. These kinds of incidents are an aberration in Japan, while in Korea protests are common place, and only regretted if they later prove to be embarrassing.

    Your comment is about as unfair as saying “Americans actually do those things” in relation to the Oklahoma bombing by Timothy McVeigh. Don’t have to be a Japanophile to see that.

  • Sirloinsteakpls

    84:

    Whats truly amazing about Japan is their reliance on export and as a result of their export dependency their reliance on their image however false it is.

    Most people do not realize the number of things the Japanese hide.

    When the Hallyu wave started here, there was absolute ruckus from the women. They loved it, everyone was talking about it. It renewed hope in them that they could find the man of their dreams. It raised their standards.

    And contrary to your little spin, Japanese men weren’t jealous of the man you mentioned. They are jealous of the attention he was getting.

    Then the comic book comes out. (Only in Japan will you see hoards of grown men reading comic books)

    The Hallyu problem is now solved through intimidation and social pressure on women. And the Japanese wonder why their women dont want anything to do with them.

    So all you Korean folks need to take a step back, realize the Japanese motivation for all this. I believe this all started in 2005/6 around the time of the Hallyu wave.

  • Sirloinsteakpls

    91: Your full of shit. Yakuza is run by Zainchi Koreans btw. Its not even Japanese.

  • Ryan

    “What is needed is for both Japan and Korea to come to an agreement that will resolve this issue peacefully through diplomatic efforts.” (From the editorial).

    This is quite simply ludicrous. No such agreement will ever take place. It would be political suicide for any government to concede part of its claimed territorial sovereignty. Korea will never agree to take this issue to the ICJ and Korea will never give up these islets. No agreement will ever take place. Stop wasting your time writing such frivilous editorials.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Not even comparable. The level of support for these guys in Japan is precisely zero. The public do not like them and they are not seen as misguided patriots.

    As opposed to Korea, where there’s widespread support for chucking dead birds and fingers at the Japanese embassy?

    And yes, I’m constantly told that those things rarely happen in Japan — usually by the same people who aren’t afraid to bring up the pheasant killers or Bee Man at will.

  • http://www.occidentalism.org shakuhachi

    The Hallyu problem is now solved through intimidation and social pressure on women. And the Japanese wonder why their women dont want anything to do with them.

    So all you Korean folks need to take a step back, realize the Japanese motivation for all this. I believe this all started in 2005/6 around the time of the Hallyu wave.

    Japanese people don’t call it “hallyu” (and couldn’t even pronounce it), and that exposes you as bullcrapping about living in Japan or knowing anything about it. Only a Korean would be concerned about the “Japanese motivation” for things.

    91: Your full of shit. Yakuza is run by Zainchi Koreans btw. Its not even Japanese.

    Yakuza is just a broad term for any number of criminal enterprises. Zainichi Koreans are over-represented at 1/3 of members of Yakuza groups, but it is not right to say that they are running the Yakuza.

    Go back to the hagwon. Your English is not good enough to fake being a foreigner.

  • Tripod

    The Japanese Prime Minister has quit, not that I’m surprised. He was the 5th Prime Minister Japan has had this decade, the 13th to have held that position since 1988.

  • Sirloinsteakpls

    96: I’m not Japanese. Never said I was.

    Japan’s image is the biggest load of shit ever so dont talk to me about bullshit.

    I remember when the HALLYU wave came about, all you Japanese men were practically crying, oh why are they making Koreans look beautiful waaaaa. The women adore their stars we need a comic book!

    Also my english is fine Mr “concerned about the Japanese motivation for things”.

  • Sirloinsteakpls

    I first accepted this job because you hear about Japan this Japan that, but you know what? With your rampant, yes rampant, child porn, schoolgirl rape porn, grown men reading god damn comics, Japan is probably the single most fucked up, yet normal looking country ever.

    I can’t wait to fucking leave.

  • kimchipig

    “They might have to wait quite a bit to get the procedure done, though, unless they skip across the border into Mexico.”

    A little correction, Robert. Our medical system may not be perfect but it is successful. All the major indicators such as life span and infant mortality are better in Canada than the USA. And EVERYBODY is covered.

    I was quite ill in February and required emergency surgery. No waiting. And no bill, either. A working stiff like me would have been wiped out in the USA.

    As an aside, Japan is a fucked up place. Really screwed up. I couldn’t believe the shit I saw there. But the same goes for Korea, too. I love my little corner of paradise here.

  • Catch the Chicken

    #92
    “When the Hallyu wave started here, there was absolute ruckus from the women. They loved it, everyone was talking about it. It renewed hope in them that they could find the man of their dreams. It raised their standards.”

    My impression of this hallyu/wave ruckus was than the vast majority was from the elder set… those 50+ ladies with time on their hands, sitting at home to watch daytime dramas… and a free mind to believe that a TV drama could mirror real life.

    … unless of course, this is your thing sirloin?

  • slim

    The Hallyu was a KOREAN concoction and yes, it mainly caught on with middle-aged ajummas of Japan — for a year or three.

    In this context it is worth recalling (or learning for the first time, sirloinstakeman) that it was Korea that had a longstanding ban on Japanese films, TV and other cultural products. Japan was always open to such imports.

  • camphortree

    Robert,
    Are you forgetting another incident? On Jan.29, 2004 a kindergarten boy in a Japanese school in Seoul was attacked and injured by a hammer wielding man. The Korean media quickly brushed off that incident as a random act by a mentally ill person.

  • vg866

    84

    “That is right. Bae Young-Jun gives Japanese men the “feeling of inferior”. “Word on the street” is that the Japanese men will burn Korean flags and massacre animals in front of the Korean embassy in Tokyo.”

    I dont know about you, but burning Japanese flags over historical grievences directly caused by the Japanese is much more forgivable than invading a peaceful country and subjugating them for 35 years without any good cause. Wouldnt you agree? And please dont reply with the predictable “It happened a long time ago” or “Japan has already apologized” excuse. Its always the Japanese side who “digs up the past” whenever Japanese politician X visits Yasukuni, Japanese politician Y denies an atrocity, or Japanese politician Z tries to claim an island that historically does not belong to Japan.

  • user-81

    Don’t the Japanese use the same Kanji as Hallyu, but pronounce it kanryu or something? Calling it Hallyu is just the more recognizable term in a forum like this, so I don’t think that’s a sign he doesn’t really live in Japan.

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/韓流

    @ kimchipig re #100: “I was quite ill in February and required emergency surgery. No waiting. And no bill, either. A working stiff like me would have been wiped out in the USA.”

    Bill O’Reilley says there are long waits in Canada for important medical procedures, and he’s more famous so he has more credibility than you.

  • user-81

    Sirloinsteakpls, Japan has some messed up things, but there’s a lot more to balance that out. Same with Korea or the U.S. or wherever. Don’t fixate on the negative or you will end up starting an obsessive blog.

    . . .

    I thought the Chinese invented the term and concept Hánliú and Hallyu is just the Korean pronunciation of the characters.

    Korean marketers and the government have been pushing Korean pop culture, but it wouldn’t have worked without a big jump in quality and a rise in interest abroad. And it’s not just 50+ ajummas in Japan.

  • arthjm

    #101, No, the popularity and demographics was comparable to when the Spice Girls first hit the USA. It’s died down by now, there still seems to be an interest on the pop side, I’m not sure, though some weirdos with oddly invested interests like to point to Bae Young-Jun and his large following of elderly as the only example to add to the subject in their vision of history.

    It’s kind of funny that you bring that up though, I forgot how much a loser shaku was when he put up pics of old Japanese ladies lining up(?) for Bae with all those puppets sneering, “lolol look how ugly they are thats hiz fans”. Classy guy.

  • Tripod

    #100,
    Yes, everybody is covered, live longer (so more should be spent on a per capita basis). Yet, ironically, health care is cheaper in Canada than in the US. Americans spend 14% of their GNP on health care system. Canadians spend less than 10% on it. Moreover, American administrative costs related to health care are triple that of those in Canada.

    So, the Canadian system isn’t perfect…None are. But, it certainly accomplishes what it was set up to do, which is to provide affordable health care to Canadian residents and in the process improve their standards of living.

  • Tripod

    …administrative costs on a per person basis, that is…

  • http://www.occidentalism.org shakuhachi

    96: I’m not Japanese. Never said I was.

    I didn’t say you were. You said -

    So all you Korean folks need to take a step back, realize the Japanese motivation for all this.

    When you happen to be Korean yourself. That is why I told you to go back to the hagwon. Your English is not good enough to fake it.

  • cmm

    @87

    Well done. …and G Bevers has nothing to say…

  • Nakagawa

    Japan’s Incorporation of Takeshima into Its Territory in 1905, by Kazuo Hori

    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/kazuo-hori-doc.pdf

    this document say it all.

  • kee

    Than ever never before, more and more Japanese people are starting
    to feel fatigue as they keep hearing about those hypersensitive emotional
    reactions from S/N Koreas.

    I’ve been to Korea 5 times with no bad experiences, tried to learn Korean
    in a language school where I made some lifelong friends… but I have
    recently become one of them.

    I am really tired of Korea’s endless “Han”, and their super fixed Good K
    vs. Evil J concept. How and when they get over them? Perhaps never.

    Takeshima is an islet which is claimed by both sides.
    Yasukuni Shrine is just a shrine. A sightseeing point. Nobody, nobody
    prays there for restoration of Japan’s militarism.
    East Sea?… can’t care less.

  • Sirloinsteakpls

    110:

    You’re right a white man hating Japan? Unheard of!! Stop crying about the Koreans already.

    Frankly Japan’s conduct with the Dokdo issue and Hallyu wave is disgusting.

    Japanese women want Hallyu, and the disappearance of Hallyu is obviously not improving the status of the Japanese man in their minds. Do the right thing and let your women have their hopes and dreams instead of threatening them constantly.

  • frogmouth

    Nakagawa, Kazuo Hori’s article was probably one of the best written articles detailing Japan’s military involvement in the annexation of Liancourt Rocks. It’s proof positive Japan’s annexation of Dokdo was not a peaceful process.

    I used his article to begin my data search and sure enough everything he said can be verified by Japanese own military archives found in JACAR’s database.

    http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-x-files2.html

    Sure the Koreans get worked up about the Dokdo Takeshima dispute. As long as the slippery Japanese government creates false maps showing the islets as Japanese, they have every right.

    http://dokdo-takeshima.com/japanese-tricks5.jpg

  • j lee

    c’mon robert.

    you’ve been in korea long enough to hopefully distinguish the context in which the territorial differences between the canadiens/u.s. and korea/japan play out.

    it’s not black and white as you suggest in humor. a reality check within the appropriate context should be explored. if you find it difficult to do so, then perhaps you are not a “korea” expert but instead, you’re simply a semi-knowledgeable expat. in korean affairs. there are plenty of those but they don’t have a well-read blog like yours.

    -j lee

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    j lee — Firstly, I never said I’m an expert. In fact, I’ve said repeatedly that I’m not.

    Secondly, since you call for a reality check, how’s this — Korea’s handling of the Dokdo issue has been counterproductive and, frankly, downright mockable. Especially since Korea CONTROLS the islets. That’s the reality check that needs to be made.

    I made it in jest, but the more I think about it, perhaps a “DO YOU KNOW”-type ad in the Chosun Ilbo about the long-suffering puffins of Canadian-occupied Machias Seal Island is just the sort of thing that might encourage a sober reappraisal of Korean official and unofficial diplomacy on the matter.

  • peter63

    j lee. I’ve never known Robert claim made by him to be an expert about Korea. Sure, this blog has more informations on it than other K-blog, but that is only because they are written by less of an expert than Robert. Just as there are many more Americans that know a lot more about Korea that don’t writing blogs.
    jlee, you are right in categorizing the Marmot as semi-knowledgable, but that in no way obligates him to conduct the dodkdo debate on his own blog in any particular way. It is material for comedy. Maybe not funny, but he is trying to make light of it and that is a good goal. Leave him alones.

  • Sirloinsteakpls

    Robert Koehler is right. The method in which the South Korean government is handling this matter is naive and at best childish screaming.

    The S.K. government has control over the island, the rest of it is meaningless. The Japanese govt has no diplomatic solution. The only way I see the Japanese govt gaining control is through a backdoor invasion during a second Korean war. Regardless there will never be int’l support for Japan’s crusade to redeem their hurt Nippon pride.

    Koreans for some reason have a serious problem with critical thinking. You’d think a modern education system would fix that but reality suggests otherwise.

    Hell they couldn’t even make the link between the hallyu wave and Dokdo, when its obvious.

  • redneck hickboy

    Sarah Palin is gonna swing the hammer on Canada on this whole Alaska deal. ;p

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