Today’s Hankyoreh ran several pieces on rising anti-Korean sentiment in China.
Now, I didn’t watch most of the Olympics — the only Olympic event I really watch, in fact, is Winter Olympic ice hockey — but apparently, the Chinese took to rooting for China and anyone playing Korea… much as I used to do with the New York Rangers. Worst of all, the Chinese even started cheering for the Japanese, and if you’re sitting lower in the Chinese doghouse than the Japanese, something is very, very wrong indeed:
Some 10 Korean businessmen in China met in a Beijing restaurant on August 23, the day before the closing ceremony of the Olympic Games. The topic was the “anti-Korean sentiment” shown by Chinese fans during the Olympics. One Samsung employee said it would not surprise him if the Chinese were to launch a boycott of Korean goods soon.Chinese fans expressed varying degrees of anti-Korean sentiment throughout the Olympics. They booed Korean athletes, and cheered opposing teams, regardless of whether the opposing team was the United States, Europe or even Japan. The Maginot Line of Chinese nationalism — in sporting events, you root for the underdog unless it is Japan — has fallen.
Then, of course, there’s the Chinese Internet, which has apparently become a cesspool of anti-Koreanism. Leading the charge are young Chinese Internet users brought up in the relative freedom and prosperity of the new China who have a seemingly bottomless reserve of national pride:
This online anti-Korean sentiment spread thanks to young Chinese Internet users born in the 1980s and 1990s. These youngsters, who grew up enjoying the sweet fruits of Chinese reform and openness, have been brought together by a bottomless pride in their homeland. For them, Korea is no longer a subject of admiration as it was in the past. Anti-Korean sentiment is the path through which their patriotism and nationalism is directed at Korea’s negative side.
Korean corporate staff working in China, worrying that Korean companies might end up on the business end of a Chinese boycott, even complain that Chinese netizens are holding foreign multinationals operating in China hostage. OK, so the word that pops immediately into mind is “schadenfreude,” but still, this isn’t cool.
Then there are the Chinese students in Korea. A post — seemingly by a former Chinese student in Korea — has been going around the Chinese Internet for several years. According to the Hani, what it says may be exaggerated, but almost any Chinese with an interest in Korea has seen it at least once.
Recalling 11 episodes from his life as a student in Korea, the post says his initial feelings about Korea — influenced by the Korean Wave — transformed into disappointment and fear. The Hani summarizes it thusly:
- When he first moved in to his home, the landlord gave him a toothbrush and some toothpaste. At first he thought this was a Korean tradition, but the landlord said, “This is a toothbrush and this is toothpaste. Since your family sent you to study in a developed nation, you must learn to brush your teeth.”
- Most of the Chinese movies shown on Korean TV are old films from the 70s and 80s. One day he was watching “Not One Less” on TV with a friend who asked, “When you went to school in China, did you, too, have to cross over mountains? How many did you have to cross?”
- A college friend told him once that he saw on TV that Chinese knew nothing besides bicycles, but thanks to the Korean Wave, they’ve learned to like Korean-made cars and cell phones.
- Many Koreans, when they learn he’s from China, talk as if his family must be rich, seeing that they’ve sent him to Korea to study.
- A rich Korean friend of his once proposed they go to China. He thought it would be a good chance to properly show him about China. His friend’s mother, however, put a stop to it, saying that China was a filthy mess without decent food and full of sinister people who steal from rich folk.
- Store owners catering to tourists serve Japanese with a smile, but give Chinese hateful looks, like “If you’ve got no money, then go.” When he once bought an expensive object, the shopkeeper asked if he was Japanese. When he said he was Chinese, he asked again whether he was hwagyo (ethnic Chinese who live in Korea).
Hey, when he said he was a Chinese student, at least nobody asked him, “Oh, which factory do you work at?” (many Chinese students — according to one, four in 10 — come to Korea to work illegally, not study, prompting immigration authorities to tighten student visa regulations in the wake of the Seoul Olympic Torch Riot).
More bitching from Chinese students in the Hani — Chinese students complain that Koreans exclude and ignore them.
This is pretty much more of the same — the Korean Wave gives Chinese expectations about Korea that are often dashed once they arrive.
I suppose this is an advantage to being a Westerner — given how our media-formed pre-arrival impressions, if they are exist at all, are formed by “M*A*S*H,” I guess we’re pleasantly surprised when the country doesn’t turn out to be a burned-out Third World shithole.
One Chinese student who returned home after doing graduate work said he initially thought Korea was a very developed nation. Now that he looks back, however, he has no lasting impression of the country. He said the society is intolerant and was disappointed by its adherence to old traditions.
A sad byproduct of Korea not having the benefit of trashing its own culture with a Cultural Revolution, I’d imagine.
Many are furious that Korean society thinks it’s so great while at the same time looking down on China. One student said many Koreans ask him if they have hamburgers in China, or if there are cell phones in China. He gets angry when he hears people talk about China so ignorantly. One graduate student said Shanghai is a global city that in many ways is better than Seoul, but many Koreans find it odd when polls come out showing that Shanghai is better.
The bigger problem, however, is that Chinese students with bad impressions of Korea complain that they have little opportunity to correct Koreans’ understanding of China through exchanges with Koreans. Many Chinese students say they’ve never really interacted with Koreans, because many Korean students hang out with English-speaking and European students in order to learn or practice English.
And I though it was because of our cute pointy noses.
Anyway, these Chinese students, excluded from the herd, end up hanging out amongst themselves. It’s hard to say, in fact, that they properly understand Korean society and culture just because they’ve studied here. Last year, 34,000 Chinese students were in Korea, making up more than half the total number of foreign students.
Note to Chinese students: Hey, if you think you guys have it rough, try playing a team death match with a lobby full of Koreans on COD4. Bad scene, man. Bad scene. Albeit not as bad as when you’ve got some American high school kid jabbering away on the other end about going down on his girlfriend.
Anyway, because the obstacles to Chinese students entering Korean society are high, there’s a limit to exchanges and understanding through social interaction as well. Not only are few companies willing to hire them, but the ones that do are often the ones looking to enter China. Accordingly, those companies are looking for how well the students can adjust to corporate life and how well they understand the Chinese market rather than how well they understand Korean society.
The Hani says because the goal of Chinese students coming to Korea is not to “understand Korean society,” it’s unavoidable that they are alienated from Korean society. Few students come to Korea because they fell in love with the place. Most come because a) it’s cheaper than going elsewhere, b) university entrance requirements are lax, and c) it’s close to China. To help overcome financial difficulties, some schools indiscriminately bring in Chinese students. This helps drive a wedge into mutual understanding, too. Capable students, meanwhile, enter Korean universities where the classes are in English, dreaming of entering international society. This, too, means interacting with Korean society takes a back seat.
Chinese students are also criticized for their excessive ethnic nationalism. Educators who deal directly with foreign students complain that Chinese students are often excessively convinced of Chinese cultural superiority. Because of their “Sino-centric worldview” rolled up with exclusionary ethnic nationalism, Chinese have difficulties in their relations with neighboring countries.
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While others seem intent on proving that the country is, in fact, a burned-out Third World shithole.
Seriously though… South Korea’s image certainly does seem to have taken a few hits lately, and not even entirely through any fault of South Korea and the bulk of its citizens. I blame VANK.
It’s been said before, but let me reiterate:
Take this entire post and substitute “China/Chinese” with “Korea/Koreans”. Then, subsitute “Korea/Koreans” with “U.S./Americans” or “Japan/Japanese”
and it works exactly the same.
Gee, are the Koreans afraid of being on the receiving end of what they have been dishing out?
#1: Yeah. Apparently, VANK needs to get on the ball.
Actually, I take the anti-Korean sentiment as partial indication that perhaps VANK (or organizations like it) has been on the ball.
After all, getting middle schoolers and bored housewives to send mass-mailings to organizations which publish documents that don’t quite gel with VANK’s aggressively nationalistic viewpoint isn’t really the way to go about making friends.
“This online anti-Korean sentiment spread thanks to young Chinese Internet users born in the 1980s and 1990s. These youngsters, who grew up enjoying the sweet fruits of Chinese reform and openness, have been brought together by a bottomless pride in their homeland.”
Indeed. Never get into an argument with such a character. According to them everything, and i mean everything, from sunshine to nuclear power, was invented ten thousand years ago by the Chinese. It’s ridiculous.
The typical Chinese tourist to S. Korea have very little appreciation for Korean culture. But the same tourist going to Japan would imagine himself sipping tea under falling cheery blossoms with Mt Fuji in the background. The Japanese are better at exporting their culture and cultural products in an attractive way than other Asians. Chinese, Thai, and Malaysians do an OK job.
Koreans think their culture is attractive because of the success of soaps and Samsung, but it’s not. I suspect most American consumers think Samsung is a Japanese brand. Koreans in America run Japanese restaurants, because American customers are more willing to dine Japanese than Korean.
There’s also the question of, do Koreans even want to popularize Korean culture to non-Koreans, and have hordes of foreigners descending in S. Korea? We often read about how Japanese are wary of foreigners, but they sure attract a lot of them to their country.
I recall the chinese students I went to university with. They studied like dogs ,never congregated with no one except their own, lived in squalor, and took everyone to the cleaners on test day. But then, the Indian nationals, and the African Americans, socialized, generally, with their own. I think the article, as Korean papers characteristically do, exaggerates the case, when the real story is just the problematic nature of intercultural communication. The article’s author may imagine his reporting as news, but stylistically, the article seems better suited for the ‘The Onion’ where its silly he said/she said this and that bad thing about Korea; at least it might get a laugh.
Part of the baggage in a Korean/chinese discourse context might be the inevitable pissing contest about whose country kicks ass more.
Korean students are also criticized for their excessive ethnic nationalism. Educators who deal directly with foreign students complain that Korean students are often excessively convinced of Korean cultural superiority. Because of their “Korea-centric worldview” rolled up with exclusionary ethnic nationalism, Koreans have difficulties in their relations with neighboring countries.
American students are also criticized for th…. oh bugger it.
@ #7: Matt, according to what source?
This is all borne out due to misunderstandings of Korean nationalism and insecurity from the Chinese.
The Chinese have spent the better part of the 20th century disassembling their own traditional heritage. Any where from saying that Confucianism was an obstruction to modernization to burning priceless and irreplaceable historical texts during the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese have taken their own traditional heritage and literally flushed it down the toilet.
However, in the 21st century where the Chinese are having a new appreciation for their history and using it as a source of strength rather than an excuse for failure [of implimenting "true" communism] they have a natural cultural insecurity to nations that have claimed they are preserved Chinese culture better than themselves (namely Japan and Korea in this matter).
Chinese reaction has be strongly negative towards South Korea because I believe many Chinese have a gross misunderstanding of Korean nationalistic intent and also because Koreans themselves have given others every reason to misjudge them. In terms of nationalism, Koreans tend to want to create “buffer zones” when provoked. What many Chinese academics did with the kingdom of Koguryo, when they tried to construe it into Chinese historiography caused Koreans to create buffer zones by claiming Jurchen and Manchu history as Korean. Many Koreans reasoned that by using similar mental gymnastics to construe Jurchen and Manchu history into Korean history, it would make the Chinese spend energy into attacking that rather than attacking Koguryo. It would also give them a taste of their own medicine, etc. Koreans took a similar approach with Mt. Baekdu.
Little did many Koreans know that this would create a huge back lash with the Chinese.
I believe very few Koreans would actually believe that Nurhachi was of Korean descent or that the Chinese don’t have a right to do what they want to do on their side of Mt. Baekdu. On the same side of the coin, I believe the average Chinese could really give a shit about Koguryo, etc. However, I believe if the Chinese had addressed Korean sensitivities sooner and more publicily all this could of been avoided. It seems that both sides have handled this rather poorly and have allowed their citizens to respond in a very adolesent manner.
# 7,
I think you are going to see that more and more with Chinese students… especially as China get’s richer and has more $$$ to send more of their students abroad.
There isn’t that much difference between Korean and Chinese nationalism. Both come from countries that had a pretty shitty 20th century and have a lot of nationalistic axes to grind.
People who have to dig up their ancestor’s bones to have something to be proud of, are the type who have achieved nothing of significance in their life.
Oversea immigrant kids exhibiting “pride without a clue” with their ethnic country or culture, are often those who have difficulty in assimilating, or at least adjusting to their life in the “foreign” country that they reside in.
Then there’s the kids at the playground yelling “my daddy can beat your daddy”. Taken to the internet, “my country is better than yours”.
If you’re an adult, you really shouldn’t knee down to children’s level and yell “mine is bigger than yours” at their playground. Same with debating history with loser types who can’t get a date or build a decent career, and spend all their time blogging.
So Matt, answer the question, since you made such negative generalizing statement in #7. The Korean students I knew who lived abroad for study hardly exhibited “excessive ethnic nationalism” at all. Actually, they were pretty humble and quiet, in large part due to their lack of confidence in their ability to communicate in English.
# 6,
I also agree that Koreans do a HORRENDOUS job of exporting their culture.
The Korea Wave, after all, was largely an unintended phenomenon. No one at MBC said… let’s make an ancient Chosun cooking drama starring Lee Young-ae for the Chinese audience!… but I guarrenttee you that the most eye balls that saw that show were Chinese, by far.
Any ways, you really have to take a good look at in the mirror when the the Japanese do a better job of promoting your food culture outside of Asia than you do….
OP: “Chinese students are also criticized for their excessive ethnic nationalism. Educators who deal directly with foreign students complain that Chinese students are often excessively convinced of Chinese cultural superiority. Because of their “Sino-centric worldview” rolled up with exclusionary ethnic nationalism, Chinese have difficulties in their relations with neighboring countries.”
For real entertainment at a western university, watch the Han Chinese students from China go after the non-Han Chinese students from China.
Right, because the Chinese are so good at integrating into other societies.
People think China is a back-ass-wards shithole because, aside from a few cities on the coast, it IS a back-ass-wards shithole. As was proven during the earthquakes earlier this year.
I guess Chinese believe everything they see on TV. Then they say Koreans tried to “fool” them. Well, nobody told you to illegally download the shows.
No Koreans don’t want their culture popularized with non-Koreans. I’ve run across too many who say that ‘others’ knowing their culture and language makes them ‘nervous’, ‘embarrassed’, and ‘upset’.
They want to stay to themselves and open up when it’s convenient for them.
Lol… clash of the practically meaningless anecdotes! The Korean international students I’ve met all have eyes on the back of their head and two extra fingers on their right hands. Those nuclear power plants must be definitely catching up with the local populace.
I admit, I was cheering against Korea for one match. I was hoping that Japan would have won the women’s table tennis team bronze instead of Korea.
Why? Was it because of that naturalized Korean who was booed by the Chinese fans as a traitor?
“I guess we’re pleasantly surprised when the country doesn’t turn out to be a burned-out Third World shithole.”
snip impulse to post snide comment here.
Hmmm I didn’t even know one of the South Korean women’s team players was actually Chinese. Actually, I was cheering for Ai-Chan.
The Table Tennis Federation is coming out with new guidelines about “foreign” players. China produces too many Table Tennis players and those who aren’t quite good enough to make the Chinese national team are finding employment elsewhere. So you have half the competing teams hiring 2nd and 3rd tier Chinese players. Can’t say I fault them, but it’s getting quite ridiculous when most of the Dominican team are former Chinese players.
Well, China has to understand something about ugly Korean nationalism… when it points its finger at it… it’s essentially pointing at a smaller version of itself in the mirror.
“I suspect most American consumers think Samsung is a Japanese brand.”
I heard this fromn otherwise very knowedgable salesman the other day as he showed me a Samsung microwave.
Excellent post RK. Thanks.
China has 1.5 billion people, supposedly economically competing with the US, and will supposedly overtake the US in few years. While South Korea is a half a country barely makes up a geographic size of one small American state, with a population not even 50 million. Yet here they are, China, spending so much time caring so much about a small country which they’ve rated as the least liked country in the world. Does South Korea hold that much influence over China?
“Does South Korea hold that much influence over China?”
No. But a Korean with the typical Korean complex ascribed to the Chinese in this post would tend to think so.
Yes, this is a great post. I would retitle it “Poetic Justice.”
My question was sarcastic and rhetorical, mizar.
But then again, I think you knew that.
JK: “The Korean students I knew who lived abroad for study hardly exhibited “excessive ethnic nationalism” at all. Actually, they were pretty humble and quiet, in large part due to their lack of confidence in their ability to communicate in English.”
Koreans are quite good at affecting humility until actually in a position to assert arrogance. If they wait it out, they know that this passes to them as a birthright.
From my time in Samsung, here’s how it worked:
The Shin Ip Sa Won (new employee) and DaeRi get all the work dumped on them and generally do their work with dilligence and sincere effort.
Once promoted to Dae Ri level they learn how to fein responsiveness while shirking any real work.
By the time they reach the Chajang level, the quality of their work has declined precipitously. As they reach Bujang, they have mastered the art of strutting about arrogantly, taking credit for others’ work and appearing frantically busy while accomplishing nothing of any value whatsover.
Those few who are promoted to VP are so totally out of their depth that they have to maintain their position through bullying, intimidation and an elaborate show of authority while removing themselves entirely from any kind of work whatsoever, so they can devote the entirety of their time to politics and head games.
what, cm sarcastic? Say it isn’t so.
cm,
It’s an inferiority complex… they are bitter that Koreans have preserved Chinese culture better than they have and have modernized faster. Damn those gaoli bangzi!
But in all fairness, it’s not necessarily the average Chinese’ fault for going all jihad against their own culture during the Cultural Revolution or that it took them so long to realize that “true” communisim didn’t work.
“People who have to dig up their ancestor’s bones to have something to be proud of, are the type who have achieved nothing of significance in their life.”
Totally agree. It’s usually the dumbasses with shitty jobs that go on about how their country is better than mine, etc. led by manipulative dumbfucks like Rush Limbaugh.
Reminds me of a guy I met in Korea who kept going off on how his nth ancestor did this or that. I DONT GIVE A FLYING FUCK. I asked him what he’s famous for and my wife gave me a little kick in the shin under the table bc she just knew more sarcasm was gonna come out of my piehole.
I really dont care much about nationalims/patriotism. It’s never put a dime in my pocket.
Admittedly, I did feel good when Korea won the baseball Olympic gold. But when it comes down to it, SY LEE is not gonna help me buy a house. SY LEE does not care about any one of you, so dont be overly proud of HIS accomplishments. He didnt do it for YOU. He prolly did it mostly for HIMSELF.
COD 4… try starcraft i got raped as soon as the game started… it was called zerg rush or something…
#13: “The Korean students I knew who lived abroad for study hardly exhibited “excessive ethnic nationalism” at all. Actually, they were pretty humble and quiet, in large part due to their lack of confidence in their ability to communicate in English.”
Your answer is that you were talking to international students. Those exhibiting excessive nationalism don’t actually leave Korea.
No no no! More cute Chinese students. Not less!
Chinese students are treated like garbage in Korea. Oftentimes, while English speaking foreigners have an outlet to know that other nationalities are treated the same, the Chinese do not.
It has been my privilege to speak to some of them and show common concern regarding “living” in Korea issues.
The Chinese I’ve spoken with are very grateful to know they are not the only foreign group treated less than spectacular.
I totally agree with Jeery #6 and Lana #17.
Not many foreigners come to Korea and this is probably for their good.
Spreading Korean culture? Think again! The more people know about it the more they will come to Korea.
One thing Koreans are particularly afraid of is foreigners. Especially foreigners interested in Korean politics, culture, social life, and any MODERN topics. They know we’re full of criticism of everything. That’s why many times they avoid talking about their country. And if you speak some Korean and they meet you outside Korea, they become really suspicious.
Face it, Koreans are still not ready to accept an influx of foreign minds into their society.
Maybe another century… MAYBE…
#32,
I agree your point but unfortunately the “perseving Chinese culture better” credit generally goes to Japan due to fact that Kanji is part of Japanese language and so many of them published studies on classics like Laozhi and I-Ching..But as far as traditional customs and other rules 规矩 of family are concern, no doubt Korean is very much in line with Northern China (sometimes more Confucious)..Saw the baby prince pic at your blog remind me of that silly 1st birth tradition of “grabbing” career symbols known in China as Zhuazhou 抓周 which practice by Northern Chinese only!!
Sid,
I think Koreans preserved and practiced pong su (feung shui) better as well. I was explaining the feng shui principles of Gyungbokgun palace to a bunch of Chinese tourists (mainlanders) and they pretty much had absolutely no idea what I was talking about. Taiwanese tend to understand pong su better but still less than an average Korean.
Just goes to show, people can come into a little money, but it doesn’t guarantee them class. Think the Beverly Hillbillies, with cell phones. The Chinese and Koreans deserve each other.
… as a matter of fact I think they got a little defensive because I was explaining things as if I assumed they would know what the basic principles were… I had no idea that they wouldn’t know.
Any ways.
North East Asia! A very strange part of the world. Thank goodness these people, Japanese, Chinese and Koreans, will never become a unified power block. If they ever did, they’d bury the rest of us.
#42
True.
Fengshui was considered “supersitious” and pretty much wiped out during culture revolution so many those average folks probably did not have exposure thus had no idea what you talking about even though the concept is more culture than religion..but then Taiwanese never had such problem so you could see what extreme Maosim had done to Chinese.
Wangkon @#32.”they are bitter that Koreans have preserved Chinese culture better than they have and have modernized faster. .. ”
Where do Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau and Singapore sit in your theory then?
I asked some college students last night about the first foreigners they had ever met. One kid said he had encountered two Chinese people.
“What were they like?” I asked.
“Not good,” he replied. I asked why, and he seemed to find it hard to express in English. I encouraged him to explain it in Korean instead, and he summed it up in one word: 그냥
Racism: Who needs a reason?
WangKon: “I think Koreans preserved and practiced pong su (feung shui) better as well. I was explaining the feng shui principles of Gyungbokgun palace to a bunch of Chinese tourists (mainlanders) and they pretty much had absolutely no idea what I was talking about.”
Siddhartha: “True. Fengshui was considered “supersitious” and pretty much wiped out during culture revolution”
That was a good thing, no? Wiping out superstition?
# 47,
They don’t. I’m talking about mainlanders.
Taiwanese sorta have distrustful feelings towards Korea, but Hong Kongers and Singaporians don’t really care.
# 46,
Like I said… the Chinese went jihad on their own culture back in the 60’s. Sad but true.
# 48,
Communists would consider Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and any other world religion a superstition needing to be wiped out.
WangKon: “cm,It’s an inferiority complex… they are bitter that Koreans have preserved Chinese culture better than they have and have modernized faster.”
No they’re not. WangKon, I’m not suggesting you’re personally guilty of this, I’m just following a train of thought here, but why is it anyone who offers a criticism of Korea is labeled “bitter”?
I see these Chinese criticisms as having sound basis for the most part.
As for modernizing, China modernized much earlier than Korea, and it’s rise today seems much more precipitous. Communism was simply a setback along the way.
But what a setback, it was! A great social experiment practiced on a grand scale. A failure? In many ways, yes, but in many other ways both illuminating and bold, and I believe it was a culturally enriching if extremely hard experience.
No, I have never gotten the feeling that the Chinese suffer from the inferiority complex that we commonly see in Korea. I sense a basic self-assurance that Koreans just lack. That is not to say that they don’t share many traits as fellow Asians, of course, but blatant insecurity is not one of them.
By the way, the first time I heard the term “blatant insecurity” was when I overheard a Westerner mutter this term when boarding a koseok bus on which passengers were practically knocking each other over to be the first to board although they all had assigned seats.
I think a lot of this tension could be alleviated if Korea - and China and Japan for that matter - loosened up a bit on their nationalism and pride, and truly recognized, respected and/or appreciated Non-Korean people, thoughts and ideas. Having a childhood filled with intense nationalism, particularly aimed at elevating your people and culture above all others is bound to create end results such as these once the indoctrinated youth become adults. Granted, Korea isn’t the only one to blame for this and in fact, all East Asian players - China, South Korea and Japan are guilty of this and need to grow up in this area for the betterment of the region.
Nationalism in East Asia is a curse which is going to lead to problems such as these, if not worse, until East Asia learns to loosen up on the nationalism and learns to live with and respect their neighbors, acknowledging the past yet moving on. Western Europe has been able to do so. It remains to be seen whether East Asia can, but it’s in the region’s and the world’s best interests if they can pull it off.
If someone tells the Chinese about these guys war is assured. One can’t help but feel loathing.
BTW, could we have a caption contest w/ that photo?
Re: #45
“Thank goodness these people, Japanese, Chinese and Koreans, will never become a unified power block. If they ever did, they’d bury the rest of us.”
They won’t have to unify to bury the rest of us. China is just getting warmed up. I’m afraid we’ll be living in a very “interesting” century - the resurgent Chinese century.
Mizar5,
Your analysis of the deteriorating quality of work by Samsuckers as they climb the grim ladder is interesting.
While I’ve heard the same sort of thing previously, it’s interesting that Samsung is such a stellar success.
How do you reconcile the facts of Samsuck’s global market share and apparent sophistication with your view of what shitheads the people who work there are?
Canadians to. Maple syrup and hockey. Get off it already.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this is about drumming up public support for invading North Korea when it’s on the verge of collapse (and apparently the Chinese government seems to think it will happen soon).
“How do you reconcile the facts of Samsuck’s global market share and apparent sophistication with your view of what shitheads the people who work there are?”
Globalization, ie. A poliltical agenda in the US that puts CEO profit ahead of people.
Oh, and they are no more sophisticated than the so-called wiz boys who rode the tech and subprime bubble, the mediocre talents who deemed themselves the geniouses behind a period of runnaway demand.
“I see these Chinese criticisms as having sound basis for the most part.”
I almost spit out my coffee when I read that.
I’m sorry but “Korea steal Sun Yet Sen, Mao Ze Tung, Confucius, etc etc etc etc” and other fabricated accusations, is not a “sound basis” for a criticism to me.
The same can be said about Hyundai and Kia supplying mediocre products to an American public whose domestic suppliers have been hoplessly stuck in a 19th century model for far too long. If people vote with their dollars, the message is clear: we can no longer sit on our hands in complascency and allow industrial dinosaurs to run the government. In this election, the choice is abundantly clear.
“ ‘I see these Chinese criticisms as having sound basis for the most part.’”
I almost spit out my coffee when I read that.”
Good. Maybe it stimulated some brain cells. Stop focusing on the words and begin to consider the *basis* of the criticisms.
And do it fast.
Just as America under Bush has suffered a temporary global decline in confidence - the perception of Korea has become increasingly negative. Is this a fluke? Is there some “anti-Korean prejudice” that has just sprung up from nowhere that has nothing to do with the behavior and attitudes of Koreans themselves? Is the disarray in Korean society - the constant internal bickering, irrationality and abysmal social standards - something entirely removed from the behavior and attitudes of the Korean poeple?
Call to logic. Call to logic.
Brain cells smoking.
Perhaps…could it be…that there deeper issues for self-reflection that need to be addressed?
…And if there are, and these issues are not addressd but whitewashed under a cloud of denial in the form of forced nationalism, akin to the cloud of drunken gaity that the average Korean worker uses to deny stress…if there is an attitude of whitewashing and denial…isn’t this profoundly unpatriotic?
Doesn’t patriotism mean having the courage to care enough about your nation to make a clear assessment and take it in the right direction?
Or should the faction in denial preempt the claim of patriotism - like the Bushes and McClains of the US, while villifying as gloom-and-doomers those who still see and think clearly enough to have a vision for a better future?
Deep thoughts here.
What have the thickheaded people who constantly rail against those who care done for Korea lately? What have those who are quick to accuse the cleareyed observers as “haters” done for Korea lately - other than bring on this ridicule by Chinese and other foreigners?
Aren’t those who hold this country to a cold standard of unadorned truth, self-scruity and call for change contributing to the welfare of the country a lot more than those who deny deny deny?
It doesn’t take genious to understand that it is the miserable bitches who attack the purveyers of truth who are the perpetrators of the problem. In a truly free society, there is room for an honest discussion of the issues, rather than the hysteria of mob thinking. When 2MB does something heavy handed, is he not just a mirror of Nosamu?
The abysmal standards that prevail in Korea and the US today - that’s right, I am an equal opportunity critic - are due to this kind of complascent thinking. And none of this is addressed to cm personally. This is a general call to logic.
“I’m sorry but “Korea steal Sun Yet Sen, Mao Ze Tung, Confucius, etc etc etc etc” and other fabricated accusations, is not a “sound basis” for a criticism to me.”
Has there ever been a single credible argument that Korean culture is not derivative of Chinese?
” The Man Who Loved China”, the story of Joseph Needham, who chronicled Chinas’ achievements over the centuries.
cm: “’I see these Chinese criticisms as having sound basis for the most part.’” I almost spit out my coffee when I read that.
Coffee? Don’t you mean tea?
I’m pretty sure there’s a distinct difference between “Korean culture is derivative of Chinese” and “Koreans are claiming Sun Yet Sen, Mao Ze Tung, Confucius, etc etc etc etc are Korean, not Chinese.” I think one of them is a reasonable conclusion after examining history, and I think the other is just batshit insane. But maybe that’s just me.
“I think one of them is a reasonable conclusion after examining history, and I think the other is just batshit insane. But maybe that’s just me.”
Yeah, that’s you alright. (winky face)
The Chinese have spent the better part of the 20th century disassembling their own traditional heritage. Any where from saying that Confucianism was an obstruction to modernization to burning priceless and irreplaceable historical texts during the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese have taken their own traditional heritage and literally flushed it down the toilet.
The Cultural Revolution and the dismantling of China’s traditional heritage has had deep, profound, and lasting consequences. Just take a look at this disturbing video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp4IGgQoVQE
NK,
The fortune cookie, like chop suey, is a recent North American invention. It’s completely natural that a mainlander wouldn’t know what it is.
Just like that beef rib with three bones in it… 10 years ago Koreans in Korea wouldn’t have known what is was.
삼겹살 is one of the more recent invention as well, right? (except reverse of LA galbi, I guess) There was a bit of a cultural lag between gyopo community and the new immigrants involving that, I’ve heard.
@Mizar
The original statement was about how the Chinese thought Koreans were claiming those historical figures as their own (even though it’s not true). Saying that Koreans didn’t actually claim them as their own is vastly different from saying Korean culture has no influence from China.
“As for modernizing, China modernized much earlier than Korea, and it’s rise today seems much more precipitous. Communism was simply a setback along the way.”
I never took you for a China apologist, but hummm…. China in the late 19th century did modernize faster than Korea but had the problem of encountering aggressive Western encroachment during the dynastic decline of the Qing Dynasty. What happens when China goes under a dynastic decline? Either internal rebellion or external invasion or, as in the late 19th century both! Communism simply being some kind of “setback along the way” is a bit of an understatement. Might as well be consistent and say it’s just a setback along the way for Cuba and North Korea as well.
“No, I have never gotten the feeling that the Chinese suffer from the inferiority complex that we commonly see in Korea.”
I was a moderator for the most popular English language Chinese History web site for over a year. Believe me, the Chinese have an inferiority complex (they also have a superiority complex mixed in as well, although that’s beyond the scope of this discussion for now). The Chinese inferiority complex is different from the Korean inferiority complex because the Chinese and Koreans are different. First of all, Chinese and Korean society, particularly male society, is very different. It’s beta vs. alpha males. Chinese men are typically beta males and Korean men are usually alpha males. Chinese men usually like to go with the flow and not raise a fuss. Korean men? They try to be an asshole about everything all the time (exaggeration I know, but I’m leading up to a point). Nowhere was this better exemplified then during the Korean War and how prisoners of war from each country behaved. Chinese men? Fought very hard under difficult conditions. Once captured? As tame as kittens. North Korean troops? Fought very hard under difficult conditions. Once captured? One of the biggest pains in the ass for the Americans and South Koreans to control. So what’s my point? Koreans tend to get overly nationalistic over very small things so it’s easier to see their nationalism on a day-to-day basis. The Chinese tend to hold things in more. So one year you’ll have Chinese citizens throw trash and bottles at the Japanese embassy and mass boycott Japanese stores for textbook revisions and than a few years afterwards, things will look downright chummy. Chinese nationalism tends to simmer over a period of time and explode. Tibet is the perfect example. They didn’t like what was said about them regarding Tibet, but once that whole issue got wrapped up in the upcoming Olympics all hell broke loose and they were every bit as obnoxiously nationalistic than Koreans, if not more!
Are there three mizars on this site? Or did I just see him responding to a single post three times. Obsessive much? i would hate to get into an argument with him in real life. the dude would follow me home and bang on my door shouting “i’m not done yet”
“@Mizar The original statement was about how the Chinese thought Koreans were claiming those historical figures as their own (even though it’s not true). Saying that Koreans didn’t actually claim them as their own is vastly different from saying Korean culture has no influence from China.”
Yeah yeah, slap me silly. But this one looks like a hillarious parody that may have taken on a life of its own.
If some Chinese are inclined to believe the caracature, what does that tell you about the factual basis behind it?
Face it, Jay Leno’s chin may not be the size of Brooklyn, but it is pretty damned big. And Koreans may not have taken credit for these particular historic figures, but they sure do pull that kind of crap all the time.
Given the by-now notorious Korean tendency to take credit for a myriad of things that actually originated in China, Japan or elsewhere, how can anyone in Korea seriously fail to understand that the cause of such false statements is Korean, not Chinese, behavior?
If some Chinese have literally bought into the myth, willfully believing the worst about Koreans, how does does this make them any different from Koreans?
Is this very much different from the anti foreign lies that make the rounds in Korea? Did two American GIs in a tank actually laugh with such glee as they willfully crushed the bodies of two young schoolgirls that they just couldn’t resist backing up for a second pass? Did the US govt really conspire to dump diseased beef deemed unsafe for consumption in America?
The parody is apt and what we have here is not so much a misconception as an exaggeration, ie. a caracature of real Korean behavior.
can somebody near Mizar5, please hit his balls with a baseball bat?
somebody please kill the messenger.
“”Given the by-now notorious Korean tendency to take credit for a myriad of things that actually originated in China, Japan or elsewhere, how can anyone in Korea seriously fail to understand that the cause of such false statements is Korean, not Chinese, behavior?”"
Really? Mind giving examples? Korean internet trolls saying this and that does not qualify as an example btw.
“”The parody is apt and what we have here is not so much a misconception as an exaggeration, ie. a caracature of real Korean behavior.”"
I think you should go back to occidentalism and cry about Koreans there. Every single comment you make in this site is about you bitching about Koreans doing this and that. I know I should be rude, but you have some growing up to do son.
“A post — seemingly by a former Chinese student in Korea — has been going around the Chinese Internet for several years.”
Why did you link a Korean newspaper article as reference? Are you too lazy or stupid to find the link to the original post in Chinese? Learn some Chinese to get an accurate picture of what the Chinese people are writing about instead of relying on second hand translations (or even worse - mis-translations). Perhaps my insistence on primary sourcing is too high of a standard for that expat crowd.
Because I was summarizing a Korean newspaper article.
I don’t speak Chinese. Mostly because I live in Korea and learned Korean. Heck I even attended class in Korea, which is apparently more than many Chinese students here do.
So, by second-hand translations and mistranslations, I assume you mean something like this:
http://www.blackandwhitecat.or.....-olympics/
BTW, I’ll also assume you believe the same goes for Chinese netizens talking about Korea — they should learn Korean or shut up. Or is this one of those 중화사상 things? Kind of like how you can riot in our capital (Seoul) but we can’t riot in yours (Beijing)?
And thanks for proving the conclusion of the third piece in the Hani!
BTW, all-knowledgable 중화맨, you never mention whether the post in question exists or not, or whether the Hani mistranslated it.
“Every single comment you make in this site is about you bitching about Koreans doing this and that. I know I should be rude, but you have some growing up to do son.”
You couldn’t be more wrong and the bitterness of your words makes me feel for you.
I neither cry nor bitch but uphold the most exalted standards as challenges that I am confident every one of us absolutely can achieve. And that’s regardless of the arbitrary imaginary divisions we place between each other - race, nationality and ideology.
I have nothing but respect for all people and my words are golden for those who are positive and have big hearts.
Be well!
As for examples, for starters, how about the tea ceremony, architecture, pottery, caligraphy, chopsticks, the kayagum, various martial arts, including gum do, judo, tae kwon do, Neo confuscism, arts including painting and sculpture, agricultural products and techniques, so-called han woo (marbled beef derived from America using cattle acquired from America). Then there are the claims that Koreans are the most intelligent, most attractive, cleanest people in the world with the best food in the world, the best athletes in the world, with the most superior dexterous hands, and have the most heart (cheong) and superior grasp of nonverbal cues (nunchi).
That should just begin to scratch the surface.
Perhaps I shouldn’t have responded to your question? It was probably just a rhetorical device intended to discredit the speaker by villifying him, thereby drawing attention away from the underlying facts of the argument.
Now my only point is that the more people indulge themselves in such triumphalist excesses, the more they invite backlash and ridicule.
To be sure, I stand firm against triumphalism, jingoism and trolodytic solipsism wherever it lies. And I point these things out with kindness while firmly extoling the virtues of liberating self awareness. Whether you criticize me or worship me is of no consequence.
Just scanned this whole thread in 10 minutes, skipping much of it. Mizar attracts much flack, but THIS, for sure, rings very true (from #52):
What it boils down to is indoctrinated nationalism (technicaly, ethnicism might be a more useful term in East Asia). The kiddies in Korea and China are taught to be excessively proud. When they bump into other kiddies from other countries with the same distorted world-view, sparks fly.
Nationalism is useful for governments, but not so useful for the citizens, unless there is a present crisis that threatens the state. It was not long back that Koreans needed nationalism to survive, but that time is past. They need to move on to the Japanese model now, which is (contrary to what Koreans will tell you) far less jingoistic, and much more respectful of other nations/peoples.
Which is one reason the Japanese are generally more respected around the world than the Koreans and Chinese are.
‘Chinese students are also criticized for their excessive ethnic nationalism. Educators who deal directly with foreign students complain that Chinese students are often excessively convinced of Chinese cultural superiority. Because of their “Sino-centric worldview” rolled up with exclusionary ethnic nationalism, Chinese have difficulties in their relations with neighboring countries.’
Are these ‘educators’ Korean? In any event, it looks like the Asian equivelent of an EU is light years away. Some nations are in sore need of a sense of humor, sprinkled with a self-deprecatory wit, like that of the Belgian who put his country up for sale on e-bay. This shit is so sophmoric, so assinine, and makes me glad I live in neither the Korean or Chinese world.
And Hoju_saram’s observations of Japan are spot on.
Some random rantings at my good friend, Mizar: (but at least it’s all in one post)
You rattling off a list of claims from nutty K-netizens, Chinese blogs, and your personal acquaintances doesn’t count as evidence that Koreans claim to have first invented all things Asian. You need to provide something official and documented instead of mere assertions and anecdotes. In the absence of documented evidence, there cannot be any discussion from which a meaningful conclusion may be drawn. I have heard from both Korean and some Westerner sources that the printing press was first invented in Korea and that Japanese greenware was stolen from Korea. Other than that, most Koreans have told me that the rest of the things you mentioned in your list all originated in China. Whose anecdote wins?
Mizar, you can feel?! I thought that was against your philosophy. (winky face)
[NES spraying seolnokcha all over his computer monitor] Appeal to gullibility/stupidity. Yeah, Mizar, you are definitely “Mr. Positive.”
Just out of curiosity, how big of a problem is the latter?
An estimated 35+ million Chinese killed directly or indirectly due to communist policies is some setback.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.2.GIF
Do you actually believe yourself? You are as predictable as always: pigeonholing Koreans and conservatives (not so much the US). Much time and electrons would be conserved by just posting the phrase “Usual Mizarism” or “Korea union conservatives = bad union wrong” five times in response to every post you disagree with. Oftentimes, there seems to be very little difference in mentality between you and the Korean nationalists: same shit, different dogma. Maybe you’re right about all Koreans being the same… (winky, winky)
some random lurker:
Just like a typical Korean (at least that’s what he would say). It’s Mizar5, so we get 5 times the Mizar. Lucky us.
er, I mean (smiley)
It’s useless getting into an argument with someone. You’ll never change their mind. You can state your opinion, and respect theirs.
Oh NES, always fightin’ with mizar and the like. Let’s settle all of it in this thread once and for all…I get to be the ref and judge!
Number of posts in this thread by:
mizar5: 20
NES: 1
mizar5 wins. Give up NES, he’s beating the pants off you and according to him, he neither wants to be associated or cares about Korea.
NES: “Other than that, most Koreans have told me that the rest of the things you mentioned in your list all originated in China. Whose anecdote wins?”
I’m going to concede that point to you. Not because you’re right, but because I am magnanimous. Essentially, it’s a draw. If two sides cannot agree upon the premise, it is useless to argue the the syllogism, and neither of us appears to want to do that.
NES: (re; Mizar’s response to vg866) “‘You couldn’t be more wrong and the bitterness of your words makes me feel for you.Mizar, you can feel?! I thought that was against your philosophy. (winky face)”
It may well be against my philosophy. But there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in (my) philosophy (Hamlet Act 1, scene 5). That is to say, to the extent that I have a philosophy, I am already guilty of violating it. This philosophy you allude to is a blend of pre Mahayana Buddhist and Vulcan and my excuse for it is to characterize it as a practice, rather than a philosophy.
NES:”Do you actually believe yourself? You are as predictable as always: pigeonholing Koreans and conservatives (not so much the US). Much time and electrons would be conserved by just posting the phrase ‘Usual Mizarism’”
My response to that would be usual Mizarism.
Namaste and Prosper.
#79 Bob,
My comment is that when one relies on translated materials, one is subject to the ability, biases or agenda of the translator. Presenting link the referenced post in Chinese would allow people to draw their own conclusions and compare with the Korean article and of course debate about the topic.
“Heck I even attended class in Korea, which is apparently more than many Chinese students here do.”
That is irrelevant. It’s like saying “I made an effort to study Korean, which is apparently more than what many ESL teachers here do”. What are insinuating here?
“Or is this one of those 중화사상 things? Kind of like how you can riot in our capital (Seoul) but we can’t riot in yours (Beijing)?”
You automatically assume I am a defender of everything “those” Chinese. WRONG. I thought the ROK was spineless in tossing out the criminal charges against the violent protesters.
Oh and what’s with the Sino-Korean and mixed Konglish phrases that you are tossing around? Are you trying to impress me with your mastery of Korean? I’ll give you bonus points for not calling me a 짱개.
Looks like one of our favorite trolls is back. Where’s the swatter?
I am a male from the US who is the only foreigner in my Korean company. My best friend is a Chinese woman who just got her MBA from a Korean University and is now staring her career at a large Korean electronics firm. We both live in the Seoul area a