So, does Korean tourism lack a sales point?
That’s the question the Kyunghyang Shinmun’s Newsmaker magazine asks. It’s a good piece that raises a couple of issue — I’ve quickly summarized (i.e., it’s not a word-for-word translation) it for both your reading enjoyment and careful consideration.
Korea Tourism Has No ‘Sales Point’
Last year, over 6.4 million foreign tourists came to Korea, a 4.8% increase over the previous year. While Koreans tend to head overseas in summer, the foreign tourist season for Korea is a bit more spread out. The Japanese come in January, the Chinese in February, and Southeast Asians in July, November and December. Japanese accounted for the largest number of tourists at 2.215 million, followed by Chinese at 1.07 million. Relatively very few tourists come from North America, Europe and Oceania. Moreover, most of the American, European and Australian/New Zealand tourists that come on package tours come to Korea via China or Japan. Only 42.2% of them came purely for tourism purposes; 40.3% came for business or other professional activities.
Chinese Bitch About the Food
According to a poll conducted by the Korea Tourism Organization (KTO) of foreign tourists who visited Korea in 2007, most visited Seoul (73.4%), but that percentage is dropping every year. Other popular destinations were Incheon (19.1%), Busan (18.8%) and Jeju-do (13.8%).
So what are these guys seeing? Well, package tours differ according to price, but in terms of sightseeing, they don’t differ all that much. In the case of the Seoul metro area, tourists are usually brought to Gyeongbokgung, N Seoul Tower, Jongmyo, Namsan Hanok Village, Changdeokgung, Cheong Wa Dae, Insa-dong, Myeong-dong, Namdaemun and Dongdaemun Market, Unification Observatory and Everland. Packages usually include, at least as options, performances like Nanta, B-Boy, Chungdong Theater’s Korean traditional performances and the Walker Hill show. In Jeju-do, tourists see Seongsan Ilchulgong Peak, Jungmun Resort and the beaches.
The barbarians, however, are not particularly satisfied with the package tours. Firstly, they don’t get to see a whole lot, and the cheap tours tend to rush around, giving tourists a rather poor impression of Korea. Chinese tourists are particularly unhappy campers. This is because of option tours, frequent stops to travel-agency designated shops and bad food. Package tours for Chinese tend to be around 500,000-600,000 won. Kim Jong-sik, the president of a travel company that markets to Chinese tourists said Chinese often complain about the lack of nightlife in Korea and the food. Our Chinese neighbors, who traditionally eat generous amounts of oily, fried foods, come to Korea expecting the lavish palace cuisine seen in the popular Korean drama “Daejanggeum,” but they often leave disappointed. 500,000-600,000 won package tours usually provide meals of around 5,000 won, often one-course meals like seolleongtang. Moreover, since meals frequently consist of easily digested foods like vegetables, Chinese tourists often feel hungry.
Yes, you read that right.
The tourists who come on packages at this price range stay in places like the New Gukje, Lex, New Seoul, Yeongdong and Dongseoul Hotels.
Kim said Chinese, who have pretty impressive palaces like the Forbidden City, don’t get especially excited by Korea’s palaces, but they do like Dongdaemun, Myeong-dong and duty free shops. Singaporeans and Southeast Asians, too, tend to like shopping in Myeong-dong and Dongdaemun. This is because Korea is seen as on the vanguard of fashion and beauty. Tours including beauty stuff like wedding photos (get your makeup and dress done in Korea!) and skin scaling are popular. According to the KTO survey, the most common activity tourists did in Korea was shop (65.5%), and Myeong-dong (55.1%) was the most impressive destination.
Also, the number of young Japanese and Southeast Asian travelers coming to Korea on their own rather than on a package tour is climbing every year.
Aggressively Drawing Asian Tourists
The competitiveness of Korean tourism is falling compared to that of its neighbors, however. This is because Korea doesn’t have that much in terms of tourism resources (i.e., things to see), and it’s expensive. According to an October survey by the Korea Chamber of Commerce of 400 local travel companies, 64.4% said Korea’s tourism industry was uncompetitive and its future unpromising. Some 25.7% said with international competition intense, the future was unclear. In fact, the Japanese, Singaporean and Malaysian governments have aggressively come out to draw foreign tourists, raising the level of competition between Asian countries over the tourism market.
The case of Japan, which for the last two years has aggressively targeted the Chinese and Southeast Asian markets, is striking. Jang Yu-jae, the president of another tour company, said the Japanese government, tourism authorities, local governments and hotels were working together to actively draw foreign tourists. By sending promotional teams to each country, lowering costs and giving incentives to local tour companies, Japan was seeing tangible results. In terms of price competitiveness, one Chinese tour company was offering a 5-day, 4-night tour package to Korea (Busan-Seoul-Jeju) for 620,000 won, while a 6-day, 5-night trip to that evil island-stealing nation across the East Sea (Osaka-Hakone-Tokyo) cost 730,000 won. For only 110,000 won more, you could stay an extra day in Japan. And there’s more to see. Compared to Japan, were many first-time visitors go back again and again to visit other regions, in the case of Korea, many don’t come back after they’ve been to Seoul, Jeju and Busan, believing there to be little else to see. This, says Newsmaker, suggests a lot.
Local travel agencies in China and Southeast Asia, too, push tours to Japan over Korea. Because of the aggressive promotion by the Japanese government, sales of tour products to Japan are more profitable than those to Korea. Jang said in China, many travel agencies treat tour packages to Korea and Japan the same, but when they sell a package, the margin left over from a Japanese tour package is three times that of a Korean one.
The KTO has pledged to bring 10 million tourists to Korea by 2010, and Seoul City said it will bring 12 million tourists. No clear plans to reach this goal, however, have yet been made. The KTO is working with the inbound tourism agency to get off the cheap package tour thing and develop mid-to-high range tourism products. The question, however, is whether they will be able to get back from Japan and elsewhere the tourists they’ve taken.
Marmot’s Note: There’s a lot to say about this, but just off the top of my head, I think it’s a sin that Gyeongju isn’t on the top three travel destinations, and moreover, I think it’s important to set realistic goals. Half a country — and let’s face it, that’s what the Republic of Korea is — is going to have a tough time competing with Japan for tourists. That said, there’s plenty to see, and it could be promoted a lot better than it is, but that’s not going to happen effectively if there’s a fixation with numbers. You’ve got to be comfortable with what you’ve got before you flaunt it, and truth be told, I’m not quite sure if the powers that be — be it on the national or local level — are fully there yet.
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Absolutely true. I would also like to see fewer or better organized high school and middle school trips to Gyeongju as well since being around Gyeongju in the midst of the school field trip season is an experience from hell and does not help promote a good tourism experience there.
If the KNTO was serious about improving the country’s image they’d clamp down on Internet comment boards such as this one where the majority of fools do nothing but rag off on the country. That, and develop the domestic market first by ensuring people had more time off from work to travel locally..
SWLee, what did I tell you the first time about comments like that?
As per #2 outburst, it’s portals like this one, replete with archives of of info on Korea that put it on the map. Any small wonder many heavy weights are turning to blogging to reach out to the masses – KTO been one of them.
As for this:
‘You’ve got to be comfortable with what you’ve got before you flaunt it, and truth be told, I’m not quite sure if the powers that be — be it on the national or local level — are fully there yet.’
I couldn’t agree more. That level of embellishment does nothing to let the country speak for itself. I think people visiting here and making their own sense of adventure is certainly far more appealing. By boldly claiming that Jeju is the ‘Tahiti of Asia’ does nothing but send a gaggle of naysayers scurrying off with faulty impressions. There really is a swelling degree of competition between Korea and its neighbours that is drastically undermining the tourism industry on the whole.
I mean the commenters Robert, not the entire blog itself. You’ve worked in this field long enough to know that as is evident by your attempts to promote Korea and to swing the discourse around when it is needed. Despite this, the general tone of the comment section here is anti-Korean. Whether you get stuck with all the bitter expats or they migrate here from other Korea-bashing sites on the Internet, or that in fact it is merely reflecting a reality that most foreign people living in Korea fail to appreciate the place for what it is and like to ‘rag on it’, I don’t know.
Getting on the map is one thing Greg, having a nice image is another. I’m not saying Korea has a bad image, I believe it to be the contrary, however discussion of this topic on this blog generally results in the old motorbike-sidewalk-spitting-trophywifeleftme routine. My intended point being that I believe the comment section of this blog (and it is far from alone) does very little to promote Korea in a positive way. The level of Robert’s liability for this is for him to figure out, and I intend no insult by expressing my opinion.
I don’t live in Korea, but I do have to visit there a fair amount. The impression I get when I visit is that Korea is mostly “by Koreans for Koreans” which isn’t a problem since it’s Koreans living there, but as a white face, there really isn’t anything very compelling about the place from a tourist’s perspective. It’s well organized, reasonably polite and I can see why Koreans are very proud of their country, but tourism is a different beast.
I certainly don’t have any horror stories and there are a number of things I liked about my time in and around Seoul, but compare that to Beijing, Tokyo, Hong Kong or Bangkok, all of which are A grade tourist spots, and Seoul comes up short.
I had the feeling, and it’s been seconded by many friends and colleagues, that Korea is just not that friendly a place for tourists. There’s nothing offensive or rude about how the Koreans behave, but you don’t get the sense that people are in any way happy that you’ve come.
Again, it’s their country and they can do whatever they please, but if you want to get the tourists coming back and telling their friends to go, they need to have great experiences. I live in China and it’s about 9-1 ratio of negative to positive reports on visits to the country.
Fair play, HojuSoju. Frankly, I try to keep out of this hotbed of activity. As per the post, I thought it was a pretty good one. There’s such a misallocation of resources that unfortunately keeps a lot of Korea’s finer points shrouded in mystery for newcomers.
“My intended point being that I believe the comment section of this blog (and it is far from alone) does very little to promote Korea in a positive way.
Actually, Koreans do little to promote Korea in a positive way. They offense easily and never ask non-Koreans what they want or do anything to fix what needs fixing. Clamping down on message boards instead of engaging in some deep self-analysis sounds like a typical Korean “solution.”
“Package tours for Chinese tend to be around 500,000- 600,000 won.”
…and they expect banquet meals and a room at the Sheraton?
Korea still hasn’t gotten its head around the fact that everything in life isn’t a competition against Japan and China. Koreans are obsessed with promoting themselves to make themselves feel better, not promoting themselves to show someone from another country what they have to offer.
And I agree with Karl that Korea is mostly “for Koreans, by Koreans”. Everwhere I go in this country I always feel like everyone wants to say, “Yeah, thanks for coming and all but could you please just pay the bill and leave?”
As for the Chinese feeling hungry, a clever tour operator would simply tell them “See, you went to North Korea as well at no extra cost!”
B-boy show on the package tour!
There should be constant B-boy shows on every street corner in the nation.
That will make it a 1st class tourism destination and a world power all in one!
*Sorry, but I believe the B-boy bullsh*t to be completely stupid, totally uninteresting for 99.9% of potential tourists, and an activity for poseur dipsh*ts!
P.S.- Karl & Anton nailed it!
There’s just nothing here that is a big draw for tourism- not just sights, but also the atmosphere.
Most Koreans and the Tourism Board don’t seem to understand that.
They just understand “China & Japan have lots of tourists, so we should too!”.
They don’t understand a whole lot about how to build a place- environment & atmosphere- that people want to visit.
They just continue with the attitude that “it’s just fine for Koreans, so the rest of the world should enjoy it too”.
They can’t seem to understand that it just doesn’t work like that.
Also, the “it’s just fine for Koreans” bit- most Koreans are dying to skip yet another trip to Kyungju for the 100th time and visit other countries. It’s lack of money/time that holds them back.
Of course, when asked, they will say they are absolutely thrilled to visit Kyungju yet again!
*I live in the Southeast and every resident here has been to Kyungju at least 10 times.
#12,
Please, no.
I’d never leave my apartment.
Sorry, but let me change
“There’s just nothing here that is a big draw for tourism- not just sights, but also the atmosphere.
Most Koreans and the Tourism Board don’t seem to understand that.”
to
“The Tourism Board and media”
Many Koreans know why tourists don’t want to come here.
I think bundling a Korea side trip to a
China or Japan visit is an excellent way to get visitors here.
Repeat (non-business) visitors are the key, and how many of those does Korea get?
Ultimately the high cost of airfare will cause Koreans may take fewer overseas trips, and this will redress the imbalance…though keep the tourist market Korea centric.
This topic is a perennial on Marmot’s:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/.....n-tourism/
Just clean up all the trash everywhere and fix the hangeul romanization once and for all.
“You’ve got to be comfortable with what you’ve got before you flaunt it”
That the best advice for all of Korea’s “hub” fantasies. “Competent” could also be added to “comfortable”, but that’s another issue.
Funny, I never feel that way.
That’s simply not true. I’ve dealt with the tourism authorities on both a national and local level for both work and personal reasons, and most are all too happy to promote their places to foreigners and will go out of their way to be helpful. Some of the problem is simply language — a lot of locales don’t have the personnel required to properly promote their assets in foreign languages such as English. And a lot of Korea’s best stuff is deep in the countryside, which makes it difficult to access for those without Korean language skills. The KTO does an admirable job trying to promote the country, IMHO, but the reality is what it is — for English speakers, getting around is going to be a bit of a challenge. Granted, Japan has similar issues in this regard, but major tourist draws like Kinkakuji have brand power that places like Buseoksa don’t.
My Chinese friends have enjoyed the caves and the DMZ. I guess they feel they can see temples and palaces back home (and probably caves too). There’s plenty of Chinese-style oily food around if that’s what people want. And if they’re leaving Korean restaurants feeling hungry their tour operators must be doing something wrong (ripping them off). Whenever I go out with Koreans I always feel they order way too much food and the courses just keep coming and coming, way past the point where it would be enough.
Mind you, if you went on a package bus tour to the Garden of Eden I’m sure you could come away with a negative impression of being rushed around and surrounded by crowds all the time.
Korea does seem to be undervalued by foreigners as a tourist destination. I don’t know why that is. The tourist information within the country is actually quite good. Maybe it suffers from similar image problems as Singapore and Taiwan. Too much Asian tiger and semiconductor factories and not enough 5,000 years of history. Maybe they could promote the mountains and rural regions more. Hiking and fishing and the like. That might balance the impression of large industrialized cities and overcrowding.
Unless you have nice beaches and hot tropical weather, you need brand power to attract tourists. China and Japan have brand power, Korea doesn’t. The names “China” and “Japan” alone, makes them great destinations. Korea on the other hand, lacks that image of a rich history and a rich culture.
Korea Tourism Has No ‘Sales Point’
Damn, I would have given the agency who conducted this study the same exact results and charge them 50% less.
I agree with Mr. Marmot that you don’t find many fluent English speakers outside of Seoul, which makes Korea more of a “seasoned traveler” destination. The temple stay program is one big draw other countries don’t have, other than that, I don’t know, maybe some organized mountain backpacking trips?
It’s also a great idea to bundle Korea as side trip to China and/or Japan.
Everyday I drive up and down the Itaewon road a few times. The part of Itaewon towards Hannam dong is absolutely crowded with tour buses double parked and sometimes even taking up the entire road. They are taking the tourists to these pile of shit restaurants that are no better than 김밥천국. Then there are a couple of rip off “art galleries” they stop off at that only has customers because of the tours.
Then at night you see these vans parked all down the road for visits to the Korean hookers. I do not know if they are song rooms or hostess bars as there really is not any signage.
Sure, these tour companies are making a shitload of money, but the KTO needs to grade these tour companies in some way because they really are giving Korea a bad name tourism wise — this is especially detrimental seeing how there is not too much to see/do here compared to the rest of Asia. I have never ever seen a Chinese tour group at Seoraksan and that place is stunning.
I think as the comment about the Chinese tourists who are disappointed in the food because they expect it to be like in the dramas shows, many of the Asian tourists are basing their expectations of Korea on the dramas. I think that is a big reason that a lot of Asian tourists come. I have Japanese ladies in my Korean class who apparently came just for the dramas. I’m not sure if they expected all of Korea to be like one running drama, but obviously when they get here and see ajossi’s spitting on the sidewalk and people running into them on the subway they are disappointed. I think Korea should create some kind of Dramaland. There could be a resort there and it could be like some kind of living drama. There could be sets like in popular dramas. Some actor from the dramas could stop by each day and let the tourists take a few pictures. There could be a couple themed rides. I think if there could be some kind of comprehensive resort most tourists would be satisfied to come for a few days and live out some drama fantasy. Oh, and if anyone from the KTO reads this, Patent Pending bitches!
I wonder how much tourism here is created by word of mouth advertising?
Having lived in China , Taiwan, and Korea, I don’t think it pays to overanalyze this. Korea just can’t compete with Japan and China in this game and they are barking up the wrong tree by trying. The sheer magnitude of stellar sightseeing in China and Japan dwarfs what Korea offers. Food and shopping are pretty secondary. Mount Fuji, the Great Wall, or…. KYONGJU? Spare me.
Agreed with #24. Korean Tour operators are the biggest problem. They lure Asian tourists with cheap prices and in turn provide cheap service.
Word of mouth data is difficult to collate, but I do know that when the government gives statistics for the number of US tourists coming here that nearly 30% are made up of US soldiers coming in from a base in Japan for weekend drinking and around 40% are military personel formerly stationed here coming back to visit the juicy girl’s parents. What we would regard as genuine tourist travel from the US makes up under 20%.
Hey, I love Sokcho and Soraksan. It is where my wife and I fell in love. I don’t mind the line forming to walk up Ulsan Bawi. The food there is spectacular.
However, I must disagree with you, Robert, there are certain fundamentals that Korean proprietors do not understand. If I go during peak season I understand the exorbitant prices for a room. If I go back there in dead winter and the Hotel is empty, I mean not another soul in the entire building, do you think they could cut back on the rate a tad? Most of their staff is gone, but, really, they won’t have to clean the room for a couple months.
My wife is fluent in Korean and that doesn’t seem to make a difference. The fact that we’ve stayed there four times previously doesn’t seem to make a difference. They simply don’t seem to value our business. No rate cut, not if hell freezes over!
Korean Tour Operators say too much on the bus when there just can’t be much to say not even in other countries. During a 90 minute ride there just isn’t much between Bangkok and Pattaya yet they don’t shut up nearly the entire way. One of the things they say to Koreans visiting Thai is… “Germans come here to fuck monkey faced girls.”
It’s simple, really:
“Half a country — and let’s face it, that’s what the Republic of Korea is — is going to have a tough time competing with Japan for tourists.”
Most of the country’s visible cultural artifacts were destroyed or looted by the Japanese during their occupation. The Korea war then destroyed what little was left.
So, it’s no surprise there’s not much to see of Korea’s ancient culture. Ditto for the other “Asian tigers” mentioned. Japan was not a kind and benevolent occupier.
Let’s see how popular Japan is for tourism after Korea and the other “Asian tigers” occupy and pillage it for 35+ years.
tbone, please…
Just ignore #32 comment. The last thing this comment section needs is yet another Japan-Korea debate.
#32 MigukNamja
Grab a tack hammer, go in front of the Japanese Embassy and start pounding away at your head til you feel light-headed. Just think, you can become a martyr to all those other idiots harping on our colonial past.
That is a strikingly good idea and just like the idea of rebuilding the four city gates and building up the surrounding areas based upon each gate, as a theme — such a good idea shall not be acted upon.
# 33
What, you don’t believe me? I kid you not, I was there. I wondered if this was just some Lone Ranger Tour Guide but the same was said on the other bus in our group. This occurred on buses owned by a large Korean Tour Operator.
“Korea does seem to be undervalued by foreigners as a tourist destination. I don’t know why that is.” (Comment #20)
It is not “undervalued.” People don’t lie about their tourism experiences just to make Koreans feel bad. The fact is it is a crummy place to visit. I have been to Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, Japan, Hong Kong and China and they all had much more to offer than Korea. I mean, who wants to sit on plastic chairs when they visit the seaside and eat kimbap? Or dodge people letting off fireworks everywhere (at Taechun Beach, for example)? Then there are the noraebangs … hooray, big deal. And the architecture, though there are a few interesting buildings, doesn’t compare to what can be found in other countries, whether the Japanese knocked the “best” buildings down or what have you.
What Koreans also have to realize is that when foreigners work in Korea and employers give them dodgy contracts or otherwise treat them poorly they are not going to be ambassadors for Korea. I doubt, for example, that most people who work in the EFL industry are praising the nation and urging people to visit. The same goes for the migrant workers and foreign companies. A look at Korea’s FDI figures lately says it all. Korea has a bad reputation — one that it earned on its own and one that it cannot blame on others (though this is a national pastime).
How the heck does that happen? Bribes and kickbacks? Seems like, what with prices between the two being what they are, the travel agencies would show at least a little more profit from Korea tours than Japan ones.
…and how much overall tourism would be gained if the North merged with the South? I can just imagine the advertisements:
Yeah… That’ll draw a lot more tourists in. Face it, outside of the kitsch appeal of seeing a totalitarian state up-close, North Korea is more or less a wasteland for tourism.
As for the whole ‘half a country’ spiel… So what? So’s Austria, and they bounced back smashingly from losing Hungary. At least South Korea got the better half of the former country of Korea. It’s almost as if Virginians were still whinging over losing West Virginia, for heaven’s sake. Let’s bring back the Roman Empire while we’re at it, since that makes almost as much sense as re-uniting North and South Korea.
Well shoot, if the KNTO isn’t doing the job, then why should we be picking up their slack? More to the point, though, wouldn’t the publicity over South Korea ‘clamping down’ on negative commentary do even more to tarnish their international image?
Exactly. There isn’t a single tourist attraction or national landmark in Korea that is globally recognized. Japan is bigger and China much bigger than Korea, but I don’t think either has significantly more to offer per square kilometer. Telling your friends back home that you walked on the Great Wall or went shopping in Ginza and you will hear oohs and aahs. Tell them you went to Gyeongju and you will get a blank stare.
Telling your friends… = Tell your friends…
“while a 6-day, 5-night trip to that evil island-stealing nation across the East Sea (Osaka-Hakone-Tokyo) cost 730,000 won.”
This part of the article was kind of interesting. Is this to be taken as a joke, or did the author really mean this?
Anyhow, visiting colonial era buildings/artifacts seems fun. I enjoy Robert’s photos every time.
40 Sonagi
You’re way off buddy.
We have the tallest building in the world in Yeoido called the 63 Building. Havent you heard of it? It’s even got its own world class aquarium which is an incentive for people to travel hundreds if not thousands of miles to see.
We also have LotteWorld and Everland which are waaaaaaayyyyy better than Disneyland so people will surely bypass Tokyo and HK. When I was a kid and given a choice bw LW and DL, I always felt an affinity to a pretty raccoon that a dirty rat. Hands down, LW bc Korea has the highest and scariest roller coaster the world can offer.
We also have a boatload of Buddhist temples with beautiful pagodas which can only be found in Korea Japan and China’s temples are not as beautiful as the ones in Korea as any sane person will recognize. As a matter of fact, Korea taught those dirty barbarians how to build buildings. Before Korea, all Asians lived in mud pits.
Korea also offers Minsokchon which offers a lot of Korean history. When you’re there, you’ll be blown away by what you can learn about Silla, Baekche Goguryo and Chosun architectural history.
Oh and all the brand name shopping you can do in Korea! Gucci and Louis Vuitton cannot be found else where in Asia.
Unless Korea recognizes it’s got basically nothing to offer for mass tourism, no one will bother investing in the industry.
I think the closest thing we had to mass tourism, until a few years ago, was the sex tourist industry….which is not something to be very happy about. If they wanna make some dirty money and revive the economy, maybe they should just accept what 99% of Koreans already know: there’s a whorehouse or two on every street corner.
korea is simply not a sell out culture like japan or china.
I am curious about the three gorges dam. Will definitely visit it one of these days…
Maybe Korea could build something as humongous as the three gorges dam?
-> the CANAL!!!
I don’t think Robert will waste a moment’s time pondering his “liability.” Bloggers of all nationalities blog about what interests them. If you could kindly direct me to overseas Korean bloggers who promote Australia, New Zealand, Canada, or the US in a positive way, I’d love to have a read.
Didn’t know it was the job of Mr Marmot to promote Korea.
There’s isn’t much to see in Korea anyway. What’s interesting about hearing the “poor Koreans, our history is so sad” victimization bullshit anyway?
Face reality Korea. There’s a reason why Time listed North Korea and not South Korea as a top destination in Asia. Get over it and move on.
What you can see in Korea, you can generally see in Japan…without the xenophobia.
I’m no tourism expert, but maybe just maybe it may have to do with the fact that Korea (the cities) is just plain ol UGLY.
The KNTO splashed sparkling signs all over Sydney last month.
I then booked a ticket to Beijing with Asiana return, with transfers in Seoul from Sydney for a good price this coming September. When I changed my plans and asked to have a few days stopover in Korea, the price went up $330 as it was a different type of ticket. This actually costs the airline less as they don’t have to pay for my over night hotel at Incheon…but I still had to pay an extra $330 odd dollars for the stoppover.
The same applies to many Australians using a Korean airline to Europe, if they want a stopover, they have to pay extra. I wrote about this to the KNTO and they said KAL and Asiana are private companies and make their own pricing.
If Korea wants to compete with Japan and China for tourists it the government needs to ‘get on board’ with the natinoal airlines and make it more attractive.
Otherwise Korea will continue with its huge tourist deficit.
What Koreans also have to realize is that when foreigners work in Korea and employers give them dodgy contracts or otherwise treat them poorly they are not going to be ambassadors for Korea. I doubt, for example, that most people who work in the EFL industry are praising the nation and urging people to visit.
Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to damper the influx of low-quality Engrish teaching foreigners into Korea. Or is it?
Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to damper the influx of low-quality Engrish teaching foreigners into Korea. Or is it?
- probably not.
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
…. Come teach EFL in Korea!!
“Some of the problem is simply language”
Yeah, like strolling around Tokyo and Beijing alleys you find tons of Japanese and Chinese people speaking fluently English. Hand signs work everywhere, so don’t blame the language skills.
This topic is so old…and so obvious…Korea has nothing to offer compared to Japan and China…and to other destinations. I really don’t get why we go over and over again on this subject…mental mastu*bation, maybe…
Singaporeans and Southeast Asians, too, tend to like shopping in Myeong-dong and Dongdaemun. This is because Korea is seen as on the vanguard of fashion and beauty.
Vanguard of fashion and beauty… Fucking Christ… It’s because it’s crowded, there are tons of Koreans walking around, it’s a cheap thrill… Doesn’t matter that all the shops are the same as back home. People like the closeness, the noise, the atmosphere, they want to hear the language and watch the locals… Ajumma soup and salad stalls in Namdaemun are the best part of the Seoul visitor’s experience. The new Korea is a drag, everybody wants the old alleys of Namdaemun.
Potentially, tourists from Japan could be greatly increased. But watching fanatic anti-Japanese protesters on news every day, most Japanese think twice before deciding holiday trip destination.
How well, do you think, Japanese tourists are welcomed in Korea?
Actually Netizen it encourages them to come by the vacuum left by the good quality ones going to where they can receive a fair deal.
I had this problem with tourist image of Korea, I am getting married in Korea in November but my parents are going to spend 8 days in China, 7 days on some beach in SE Asia and only a week in Korea. I could find things my mum might like (photograph some temples, etc) but my step dad likes to relax and do little on holiday, it is hard to get that type of experience in Korea. Are those tourists a completely lost entity, the club med tourists?
J
From my personal experience visiting Korea, I think it is safe to say, that in general Koreans are very kind and full of hospitality especially against Japanese.
It was even so in the mid 90ies, times when Korea were far more nationalistic and anti-Japanese.
I am tempted to describe contemporary Korea as almost a “pro-Japanese” nation, albeit that their politician, their media, well and maybe everyone is bitching about Japan and the Japanese.
Personal relationship with Korean was always a pleasant experience for me.
@26 Big B has a great idea. Though many would disagree that Korean needs another theme park, something along the lines of Universal Studios, where the scenery looks likes scenes from Korea’s most successful movies and soap operas, and live shows are staged to re-enact some of the most vivid or emotional scenes, would probably draw in those Asian tourists who are die hard Korean cinema and soap opera fans. For most Westerners, Korea at best will be a stopover between Japan and China. Such tours will likely be short (3 days or so), but still increases Korean tourism. Korea deserves a spot on the East Asian itinerary of any serious Western tourist, but it will unlikely become the destination of choice until such time as a fair number of Westerners can count Korean blood among their Heinz 57 geneology.
Inkevitch. Take your Mum and Stepdad up to Gapyong to the Australian/New Zealand memorial. Let them stand where 3 RAR and the Canadian PPCLI, backed up by Kiwi artillery, convinced the Chinese to abandon human wave attacks against western troops. Remind them that one of the companies that accomplished this miracle, was commanded by an Abo, Captain Reg Saunders. If that doesn’t make their chests swell with justifiable pride, you’ve got the wrong flag next to your name, Mate. (ps: check with your Embassy’s defence attache. He can give you driving directions.)
Koreans always manage to interpret foreign dissatisfaction with Korea in such a way that it does not hurt their own pride.
Chinese come here thinking they like Korean food, and then get very bored of it very fast because it is uniformly spicy, too heavily meat based, and has too narrow an assortment of vegetables. But the Koreans say “Their food is greasy, so if they don’t like ours, it must be because it isn’t greasy enough.” The Korean notion that their cuisine is higher in vegetables than other countries’ just because they have lots of little dishes with little shreds of pickled things always makes me laugh.
Another Japan-Korea debate?! Where?! WHERE?!
I agree with what was said about making Gyeongju a bigger international tourist destination. There’s a lot to see. Also, I agree with Robert’s comment that most of the whining by expats about Korea is due to their ignorance of the language. Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of annoying things here and some of the complaints are valid. However, much of the comments about Koreans being too self-centered can be turned around on the commenters as well.
As for the Chinese who want that kind of food, they should have a tour that includes one of the many 한정식 restaurants in the Pangyo (판교)/Euiwang (의왕) area, but it will cost more.
A “green tea” tour to Hwagae Marketplace (화개장터) near Hadong (하동) might be another good idea, but probably too time consuming and out of the way to get there.
I think part of the problem is that the ROK is for all intent and purposes is an island, I think if there were a high speed train from Busan to Beijing that might help expand the tourism industry. Also showers at Haundae may help!
“Also, I agree with Robert’s comment that most of the whining by expats about Korea is due to their ignorance of the language.”
So tourists have to learn Korean before they visit Korea? I don’t speak Thai, but enjoyed it there. I don’t speak Japanese either yet enjoyed Japan. I speak Korean fairly well but still think Korea can’t compare to other places I’ve been in Asia.
It’s not a language issue. Koreans just don’t know how to make foreign visitors feel comfortable. You do not need to know the language — body language, smiles and goodwill are enough.
… and places to actually see are important too.
@ 58 lirelou,
Well may it be for Australia to pin medals on its buffalo soldiers, what will it take for that nation to start celebrating those indigenous people that fought to defend their own land?
Lest we forget, there are still ‘Abos’ fighting that fight.
One other observation I could make is that many of the tourist drawing sites, i.e., Disneyland, the great wall, etcetera, are just out to grab a quick experience, shoot some shots, buy tourist junk and eat a meal that is different from back home. That is fine for some but for others, they may want to soak in and experience a different place, thus they look for a comprehensive experience. This sort of experience is what is good about Korea, IMHO, but it takes time or thoughtful planning to work that out. If I go to some country I have never been to before, I do not use tourist packages, I just go, dressed to blend in and flow with no goal in mind and it turns out I get the most interesting experience as a result because I get to focus on the environment and people instead of some tour trap designed to take my money.
Likewise, promoting “tourism” in Korea takes some thought about just who are your tourists and what sort of experience do they want. Some in the KTO understand this and do their best, others who are more bureaucratic-minded don’t get it and don’t care. The situation seems to be improving but more insight and better direction is needed, IMHO.
“I just go, dressed to blend in”
LMAO
#61 Dr. Doom
Did I say “tourists” or did I say “expats?” I clearly stated “expats,” and the reference was to the “hate Korea” comments they make on this blog. However, you are right that Robert did discuss it in the context of tourism (#19). The subtopic came up in the earlier comments if you would like to read further up (#2-#5).
I haven’t really experienced too many problems with that. It seems that Robert hasn’t either. This leads me to think that the problem might be due in part to the one experiencing it.
#49
You have a good point about the stopovers. Dubai has been really successful at this. Emirates offers a stopover on all of its flights that transfer in Dubai – they ususally even throw in a free hotel room for a night. When people go on vacation there’s always a risk in trying someplace different. If it were cheap to do a stopover in Seoul (say $100-$200 including hotel for a night) I think a lot more people would try it.
Re #34:
You can ignore the elephant in the room if you want, but it doesn’t make it go away. It really is simple : occupation + war equals pillaging and destruction on a massive scale. Hence, not much old, cool stuff to look at.
Geez, someone mentions the obvious and it’s treated as heresy.
Re: #35:
Doomed to repeat it and all that. You have to know where you’ve come from to know where you’re going. Sticking your head in the sand won’t help.
Re #64
That’s exactly my point. Korea doesn’t have much to set itself apart from other Asian countries. But, it’s hard to blame Korea for lacking cool, old shit when nearly all of it was destroyed from 1910 through 1953.
The major stuff is all relatively new, which means it’s not that much different than modern Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore, Shanghai, Beijing, etc.,.
Hence, there’s not enough compelling reasons to extend the time between connecting flights through Incheon, get out of the airport, and see the country, much less actually make Korea the final destination for tourism.
“I haven’t really experienced too many problems with that. It seems that Robert hasn’t either. This leads me to think that the problem might be due in part to the one experiencing it.”
Maybe, but then why are my experiences different and better elsewhere? I should consistently feel the same everywhere if that were true but it isn’t the case. Anyway, if you live in Korea you better learn to love it. It sucks living somewhere you don’t like.
“You can ignore the elephant in the room if you want, but it doesn’t make it go away. It really is simple : occupation + war equals pillaging and destruction on a massive scale. Hence, not much old, cool stuff to look at.”
Miguk Namja, I don’t expect much from a person who actually believes that quest for earthquake free land was the prime motivation for imperial Japan to invade China,but nonetheless ,”Most of the country’s visible cultural artifacts were destroyed or looted by the Japanese during their occupation” is an urban myth.
Read the book written by the Korean born archaeologist Hyung Il-Pai which title is “Constructing “Korean” Origins: A Critical Review of Archaeology, Historiography, and Racial Myth in Korean State Formation”. She details that it was rather Japanese archaeologists and Colonial government who introduced modern archaeology and museums and thus actually protected, recovered old sites and temples which during the Yi dynasty were almost ignored and abandoned (because the dynasty was heavily neo-Confucian, it just had just zero interest in protect and maintain old “heretic” sites, monuments and temples).
#73 TJ
Yes, it was very kind of the Japanese to protect all of that cultural heritage by putting it in museums back in Japan for safe keeping. Thanks so much.
NES I am happy to announce for your great relief that actually the colonial government had established a law in 1916 to prevent looting of cultural heritage by Japanese and Korean looters. The government had also ensured that all excavated and newly found cultural heritage should found their ways to the museum in Seoul.
Hyung in his books also describes how some Japanese scholars remained after WW2, despite the soviets advancement, to protect the Seoul museum and handle it to proper Korean hands.
Of course I am not saying that there was zero looting or destruction of Korean cultural heritage, but “Most of the country’s visible cultural artifacts were destroyed or looted by the Japanese during their occupation” is simply a myth.
From the review article of Hyung’s book written by Roald Maliangkay:
http://koreaweb.ws/ks/ksr/ksr01-10.htm
I’m a 2-year Seoul resident that just got back from a 5-day business trip to Osaka. It was the first time I’ve been to Japan for any length of time. There was no shortage of westerners there. But one thing that I definitely noted is that people would smile when they saw me walking around their city. I know this is totally subjective, but it made me feel very welcome. You don’t get that in Korea; the people seem a little dour. That can’t help tourism in the Chosun.
On a (perhaps) unrelated subject, I was there to meet with a Japanese supplier. Every day at 5:15 PM, the office PA system played a tune and everyone got up and went home. Wow. I haven’t seen that in a long time.
Stevadoo knows to write ‘every day’ as two separate words. I haven’t seen THAT in a long time. Gold star.
Visit my law firm sometime. At 12 noon on the dot, the place becomes abandoned — I’m talking tumbleweeds blowing — as everyone heads out for lunch. Same thing happens at 6:00 p.m. with dinnertime. Most of ‘em come back, because they have work to do, but just try to find one of our associates around that time. Can’t be done.
They’ve done the same thing with vacations. Everyone is obligated to take their vacation in the same general time frame (late August) and this is a real cramp on the ability to get things done. Luckily August is (usually) a slow period for law firms, but this month I had some urgent projects to dole out and it was a real bear to find free hands.
#75 TJ
Not quite as neat and tidy as you might want to think:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/48765/output/print
tomojiro is correct about Japan’s official policies 1910-1945 — but that’s only part of the story; it would be no surprise that highly-placed Japanese found plenty of unofficial ways to get Korean items back to their family property on the islands… But anyway the greatest grievance about “looting” is from the Imjin dustup — by general international standards, too long ago to do anything about.
Just a technical note from your post:
> Hyung in his books
It’s actually *her* book, Hyung-Il Pai is a very nice and thoroughly intelligent woman, professoring at the University of California. Family name is Pai, which should actually be spelled Bae these days. She was drinking green tea over a long chat in my office just over a month ago… You are quite correct that her book you mentioned is excellent, groundbreaking, essential and etc. I asked her if she had received excessive amounts of harassment, job-ending-threats and whatever for daring to publish what she did — she laughed and said that’s why she teaches in California.
Anyway, yeah, there’s still a long way to go for getting Korean tourism to where it should be. We’ve got some heavy built-in disadvantages — really bad summer weather (June ~ August is global tourism’s biggest time), inadequate snow in the winter, population that is often cool to foreigners and would just rather not deal with them, some outright xenophobia… But lack of things to see and do are far from the main problem, in my mind.
In the Visit Korea Year 2001-2002 committee, we actually spent a fair amount of time trying to improve the Korean public’s attitude towards foreign tourists, and the tourism industry in general… It’s harder than you think!
Religious and Mountain tourism are relatively unexploited fields that really should be pushed a lot more — especially my baby the Temple-Stay program. Gyeongju and Sorak-san should get a lot more foreign visitors than they do — and might if transportation access could only be improved (KTX lines). The traffic difficulties of getting out of and the back into Seoul really need to be ameliorated, too…
And then, the really great attractions here just need a lot more and a lot better publicity — Gyeongju and Sorak-san can stand up against anything Japan or China have, if only people interested in Asian culture and landscapes know about them!
I know I’m in a minority of one on this site but I happen to think that Korea is a great travel destination. I can’t talk about the golf or the shopping or things for kids but in terms of the things I look for it does just fine. Cheap accommodation, cheap transportation (cf Japan), loads of history, beautiful nature, great food…
I seem to be the only one who thinks so on this site but I’m not the only one. Only last night I was having dinner in London with a British friend who’s done a bit of traveling in his time and he was saying how beautiful Korea was. My sister really enjoyed her time visiting me in Seoul and an Iranian friend sent me this a couple of days ago
“Sorry for being late in reply. I have been in Hodo(호 도), a small island, 1 hour far from the Bo-Ryung city in Chungcheong south Province (the city which mud fest. was there). It was just an AMAZING place. A very small island (1.3 km^2) which you can go from the up to down by 10-15 minutes walk. No car, no pollution, no noise… and a very beautiful nature. I was there for 4 days and spent my whole time by
swimming or laying down on the beach and listening to the sea voice and watching the sun set or the sun rise. My English is not good enough to describe how beautiful and quiet place this island is and how much did I enjoy…”
Sounds like he had a good time. While he complains about his English I can tell you it’s a whole lot better than his Korean.
#79
“Not quite as neat and tidy as you might want to think”
Do you even read the article before you link?
“To be sure, not all the works were looted; Kakurinji Temple, for instance, received the painting–probably as a gift–long before the Japanese invasion.”
And the temple was founded by a Korean monk who came to Japan.
I was surprised when I read this article that the reporters chosed the Kakurinji case to make their point of argument,as if they are giving some moral high ground to the thieves.
Besides,these artifacts may be culturally important,but hardly any tourist magnet.I don’t see so many Koreans paying pilgrimage to Tokyo’s National Museum for “stolen” Korean arts,although I see hundreds of them flocking in Shibuya and Ginza for shopping.
“You can ignore the elephant in the room if you want, but it doesn’t make it go away.”
Yeah,Sungnyemun was selected as the first cultural artifact for preservation by the office of governor-general of Chosen and it has been a great tourist asset for Seoul until last year.
But it wasn’t burned to the ground by the hand of Japanese…
“Korea doesn’t have much to set itself apart from other Asian countries. But, it’s hard to blame Korea for lacking cool, old shit when nearly all of it was destroyed from 1910 through 1953.”
Really, what cool old shit do you imagine there was anyway?
When I lived in the countryside in the 70s, it was all mud, strawthatched huts and traditional shingled houses with cinderblock walls. The towns all had rough-hewn ugly cement and cider block buildings. Even today, things are little better today aesthetically. The general environment is cheap, hastily and shoddily built servicable but hardly culturally significant.
My impression is that there was never very much culturally to recommend Korea, and things are not much improved today.
The main things I enjoyed in those years was the feeling of an untouched quintessentially Asian experience, including the sleepy small towns and quiet and remote mountain temples. But that is gone now, replaced by cheap-looking high rise apartments and pale, second-rate imitations of Western culture.
I cannot agree with the statement that language or cultural ignorance on the part of foreigners constitutes a problem. The main problem I find for foreign visitors is the constant and relentless, crude and pervasive in-your-face Korean cultural attitude.
> 82. Eujin
> I know I’m in a minority of one on this site but I happen
> to think that Korea is a great travel destination.
>
> I seem to be the only one who thinks so on this site …
Uhhmm Eujin, have you never read ANY of my posts on this blog? (non-political threads) Nor any of the on-the-road posts from our esteemed Great-Blog-Leader hizownself? And there are in fact plenty of others. For more than a few of us, the amazing sites and cultural happenings are at least half the reason we’re here (or used to be).
It’s just that, as noted above, this topic has come up many times before, and arguing with / slapping down the “Korea has nothing to see or do” idiots — who either have sociopathic emotional / ideological problems or have just never been anywhere other than home, work and itaewon bars — is no longer worth the effort.
Tho what many of the negative posters above are saying is not that the K doesn’t have great stuff, it’s that it’s not promoted, set-up, staffed, offered & administrated well, esp for newbie tourists — and there is general agreement on that; it’s hard to deny.
Look around outside of downtown and the sleaze-joints, you’ll find many non-Koreans who enjoy the excellent places as much as you do — you’ll be less-likely to find them slagging Korea on blog-comment-pages, because they have Lives.
“Look around outside of downtown and the sleaze-joints, you’ll find many non-Koreans who enjoy the excellent places as much as you do — you’ll be less-likely to find them slagging Korea on blog-comment-pages, because they have Lives.”
The tourist numbers — of Koreans going abroad and non-Koreans visiting Korea — speak for themselves. Most of the comments are negative because that’s what people feel. Check out discussions about tourism elsewhere and you will not find the degree of negativity associated with Korea. Koreans are to blame for that, not tourists or expats.
When your number one national treasure burns down due to your own incompetence at protecting it, asking why you fail at tourism makes you look all the more foolish.
How about Korea as a cycling destination? I’ve traveled extensively around the country, and the best trip I’ve taken–by far–was by bicycle. The landscape is simply beautiful, and once you escape the car-choked cities, Korea’s country roads are ideal for touring. Granted, appealing to this niche market won’t revolutionize the travel industry. But IMHO there’s no better way to experience this country.
All I ask is this: please, Korea, do not pave over and “develop” your entire country in a vain effort to attract foreigners. Look at the destruction of Jeju: completely counter-productive.
Korea has potential for a special and unique form of tourism. It won’t boost their visitor numbers necessarily so, but for me… that’s good anyway.
A good secret about Korea, is its mountain ridges and temples (take a long unexplored walk), the abundance of small unvisited islands off its south coast (buy a small outboard), and all the great little farming communities that lie at the end of the triple digit numbered roads (get a 125cc Daelim motorbike for summer).
Cities are great places, but that’s where you make your money, the less explored areas (in Korea) is where you spend it…try it?
Yup i agree, ras, that our mountains and temples have great little-yet-used potential for atrracting more tourists with special interests.
> mizar5 said:
> … the sleepy small towns and quiet and remote
> mountain temples. But that is gone now,
I would say that those two things are far from gone, they are both still very much here (i’m assuming that towns = villages; yes, the actual Towns have gotten busier & uglier with prosperity). In fact, i’d say the are both more charming and far more accessible than ever before… Very few places in SK, if any, can now be called “untouched” in the 21st Globalized Century — and we would not wish ‘remaining mired in extreme poverty’ on any of them, or any localities of the world, just for our own nostalgia-feelings, uhm, would we?
But anyway i’d say that SK still offers an excellent “quintessentially Asian experience”, as far as any can be found in an OCED-member nation… Keee-rist, go check out the valleys of Jiri-san…
> 88. mdr
> How about Korea as a cycling destination?
Yup, great mostly-unrealized potential there, too — including mtn-biking. There’s a Dutch friend of mine that has been offering bicycle-trips (mostly in far-southern countrysides) for 7 years now, and has done well with it (most clients middle/north Europeans), great feedback. A niche-market sure, but could show much better results if the nat gov and local govs would pay some attention. Gyeongju has probably Korea’s best bicycle-tourism system going, and that has enhanced its attractiveness for younger int’l travelers (tho not publicized enuff).
>92. sanshinseon
Does your Dutch friend have a website or contact information, by any chance? I’d be very interested to see what kind of trips he’s offering.
There is a shitload of things to do and see here for those that are here.
I don’t see these things, however, as being strong enough for Korea to be transformed into a destination tourism location.
At least the new tourism ads on TV are good now. It’s a start I guess.
RE: 93:
Don Roelofs
Director, Shilla Travel & Consulting
http://www.shilla.nl or http://www.koreaspecialist.com
KR-Travel Co., Ltd.
Seoul-si, Jongno-ku
In-eui dong 90-1
Yeji Building 402-ho
SOUTH KOREA
tel: 0082-(0)2-744-7696
fax: 0082-(0)2-741-7696
mob: 0082-(0)19-244-7696
Thanks!
#83 Aceface
Yeah, I did read the whole thing. Did you? I said that it was not as “neat and tidy” as TJ put it, with the benevolent Japanese preserving all cultural sites in the interests of benefiting the Korean people. Was I wrong? You’re quoting that “not all the works were looted.” This means that other works were looted. The article goes on to say:
Apparently, many other works.
They did not give moral high ground to the thieves. In fact, the article reports that the Korean judge did not accept their reasoning. The article appears to be written by an ethnic Japanese author with an ethnic Korean author based on the surnames. Kay Itoi has a blog here:
http://sushilog.blog7.fc2.com/
Perhaps you should not have assumed the article was strictly biased against Japan. I didn’t say that the article was damning. I said that it showed that the reality was not as nice and tidy as what TJ wants to believe.
As for preservation, you guys did a pretty good job of screwing up Seokguram.
#84 Mizar
This is completely different from my experience here. I’m guessing that they didn’t confuse the tall, white, blue-eyed, big-nosed guy for a Korean. I wonder why most people have been polite to me, more especially when traveling the countryside. Hmmm…
They tore down the Buddhist temples and sleepy small towns, replacing them with high rise apartments? I spent a few days two weeks ago driving from Suwon to Gangreung to Pocheon and back. I can happily report to you that the myriad of sleepy small towns and Buddhist temples dotting the countryside are still there (no doubt thanks to the Japanese and their love of preserving cultural sites for conquered, er I mean, neighboring peoples).
Mizar, your lopsided hate of all things Korean is not only illogical but does not make you seem to be a credible witness.
#98 NES, if I were a wag like you, I might write that your overly simplistic proclivity for portraying those who simply speak the truth as having a “lopsided hatred of all things Korean” is “not only illogical but does not make you seem to be a credible witness.”
While I meant write “nearly gone now” or “all but gone now” rather than “gone now” , one would have to have a much deeper understanding and longstanding experience of Korea to understand what I am alluding to. I wouldn’t expect you to understand.
#99 Mizar
Argumentum ad hominem, and they aren’t “nearly gone” either. How disappointing; I thought you were above name-calling. Not so tolerant of the “gadfly” now, are we?
Yes, Mizar, you were deceived by the lies of some Koreans in the past, which has made you decide that, ergo, all things said by Koreans must be lies. Blinded by your syllogistic fallacy, you spew your hatred of all things Korean. This is just my observation from your many posts, and I think there are a few others who agree.
This isn’t to say that I disagree with everything you write, especially in cases like mad cow hysteria.
***
On a slightly related issue, I liked your example in a past thread that Gojoseon never existed because a bear can’t turn into a human. I’m glad you told us this because I can now rest easier not having to worry about North Korea since I have the knowledge that it is merely some invented fantasy country as Kim Jongil was born in China, not on the top of Mt. Baekdu (I guess this means we can throw out Goryeo along with Wang Geon’s dubious birth on Mt. Baekdu as well). We can rule out many of the ancient civilizations confirmed by archaeological evidence because their creation myths are obviously false.
Aside from toothless old ladies who worship “The Mountain” in rural areas (the places you wish there were more of), I haven’t met too many Koreans who believe the existence of Gojoseon to be a fact while also taking the myth of Dangun’s origin literally.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that Gojoseon existed. I don’t know. What I do know is that a false creation myth doesn’t rule out the possibility (A conclusion based on such is simplistic at best). Westerners also dismissed the existence of the Shang Dynasty in China until archaeological evidence of its existence was found.
Most likely, “5,000 years of Korean history” is an attempt to match the same claim made by China. America also has 5,000 years of history, but it surely doesn’t involve a single race or culture.
everyone has myth as origin of their tribes.
Mizar5’s a fucking idiot. That’s all.
Japanese were born by a lady who was doing a mating dance with the sun, then, that’s their mythology.
Greeks, Middle Eastnerns, there’s mytho galore.
Only the Korean one is a lie, to Mizar5.
wanna be or actual partial ilbon-in.
“Yeah, I did read the whole thing. Did you? I said that it was not as “neat and tidy” as TJ put it, with the benevolent Japanese preserving all cultural sites in the interests of benefiting the Korean people. Was I wrong?”
Yeah,because “Cultural sites” is one thing.”Cultural artifacts” is something else.And Tomojiro was talking about the former.
“This means that other works were looted. ”
No,The guy being quoted in the article is talking about any Korean cultural artifacts that is currently in Japan,whether it’s been “looted” or being purchased,and that’s probably not even an accurate number since nobody had ever conducted any research.Certain cultural artifacts that has crucial importance in Korean art history and in the posession of the Japanese government had been returned to Korea according to the 1965 treaty.
“As for preservation, you guys did a pretty good job of screwing up Seokguram.”
Dude,I took archaeology in college.
Using concrete was normal practice around 1910’s or even today and you can’t really tell the affect of humidity or rain water in advance.I think Korean judgement on Japanese preservation practice is an after thought based on current techonology,but not the ones in the early 20th century.
When I went to Cambodia in 1998 there was a fuss between international organization and Indian government on how to preserve some temples in Angkor Wat.(Indians were insisting on using concrete because that’s what they use in India)And at least Japanese tried to preserve what the Koreans were left it to ruins during Chosun era.
How big of Japan.
Would make for a great t-shirt, though. “We Were Colonized By Japan for 35 Years, and All We Got Was This Stupid Concrete Roof on the Seokguram.”
ROFLMAO-PMP
The Japanese are the most highly misunderstood people of all time. “Hello Kitty” has went around the world performing great acts of charity and kindness, spreading peace and love everywhere, from the beginning, yet she has been met with ingratitude at every turn.
Japan protected and preserved the neglected cultural heritage of everyplace they went for the benefit of the future generations of those peoples only to be accused of pillaging.
Japan provided good jobs to needy Korean, Chinese, Taiwanese, Filipina, and Dutch girls seeking employment only to be accused of forced sexual slavery.
Japan modernized and developed Korea for the sole benefit of the Koreans, saving them from themselves, only to be accused of brutal colonization.
Japan liberated the people of Nanjing from the Chinese fascists only to be accused of gang rapes and massacre.
Japan’s Unit 731 taught the Chinese new ways to make soap only to be accused of medical atrocities and torture.
Japan cleaned up the riffraff in Manchukuo with “strict disposals” only to be accused of genocide.
Japan taught Americans the value of regular exercise in Bataan only to be accused of a death march.
Japan tried to free the natives of Hawaii from oppressive American colonial rule only to be accused of an unprovoked sneak attack.
Japan kept good food from going to waste all across the Pacific only to be accused of cannibalism.
Why aren’t the peoples of the countries where Japan visited before 1945 more grateful for all that Japan has done for them? Why do all of these misunderstandings persist?
I have a t-shirt idea for Japan:
“We Taught the Fat, Lazy Americans the Value of Exercise in Bataan, and All We Got Were These Two Huge, Stupid Piles of Glass.”
On behalf of fellow Americans everywhere, I would like to say, “You are welcome, Japan.”
I’ve got a T-shirt for YOU NES:
http://baboshirts.com/Korea/Shirts/JapanTee.html
And you just might find it on your desk someday. :p
“Would make for a great t-shirt, though. “We Were Colonized By Japan for 35 Years, and All We Got Was This Stupid Concrete Roof on the Seokguram.”
And is that gonna be the new selling point of visitng Korea?
It sure helps making Korea more attractive travel destination for the biggest foreign group visiting the country…
#105 cmm
That would really put me in a sticky situation: Do I (a) burn the t-shirt or (b) wipe my @$$ with it? Ah, (c) all of the above! (”b” before “a,” of course.)
Why not all of you,Japan-haters in Korea organize somekind of a circus for tourists?
The Bee-man,The pheasant busters,the finger-choppers and now a T-shirt burner!
That would be some amusing sight and I’m sure Japanese would send highschool students for history education if only you guys are housed in cages.
#101 wjk
But the world needs wanna bes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7-E1qTVJgE
Per Dave’s comment
Yes, money almost always has a negative effect upon keeping a culture interesting. Per the article:
A desperate attmept to show the better side of me.
No one really expect Korea for the ultimate “Asian experience” like you get in Nepal or Thailand.
Many Japanese think Korea is a good travel destination and that is because of “busy&ugly”Seoul.
And I’d say prosperity made the city a lot more attractive than it was before and that’s why many Japanese visit Seoul multiple times.
Even with all the hostility to Japanese on internet,I never really felt that as a traveller and that is pretty much the consensus among Japanese who have been to Korea.
#100 – NES, the comment about developing a hatred of all things Korean for being lied to one time is a real a non sequitor. I have no idea what you are talking about or why you choose to make it something personal. Or, for that matter, why you would attempt to pidgeonhole an individual (yes, that is a strawman ad hominem) for simply expressing observations of the Korea he grew up in vs. the Korea of today when you are not apparently in a position to comment about the matter. Someone who has not been here in the 60s, 70s and 80s is just not very well equipped to comment about the differences.
Nor have I ever painted Korea with a broad brush or argue with a singluar mentality. I note the good and the bad and actually agree that there is still some good but then, I wouldn’t expect you to appreciate or acknowledge a nuanced view, as docrinaire as your arguments have become.
Re my comments on mad beef, at least you understand the point of being critical. Now all you need to do is free your mind from a neolithic kneejerk sensibilities and break free of imputing tendencies to others that are just not there.
Mizar5, please satisfy yourself with your wife’s younger cousin and leave off with your Korea bashing. I’m sorry, but your sexual inadequacies are the only comprehesible reason for your +6 years of Korea bashing. Its too long, get another hobby,
Let it go.
Hjusoju, there is no such thing as “Korea-bashing.”
Now, go join NES in the reification corner and work out those psychological projection issues
And here I nearly forgot that the last refuges of a scoundral are playing the race card or making accusations of a sexual nature!
I guess if the truth offends you, you can always respond with distortion. If you don’t like to see things clearly, muddy the water.
No offense Mizar, marrying a juicy girl would make me bitter too.
No offense taken. Your concession is accepted.
#108 Aceface
Great idea! And all you Japanese and Japanophiles can organize a circus for tourists in Japan too!
The sarin gas subway cultists, Manga Kenkanryu (Hate the Korean Wave Comic Book) readers, Occidentalism and other Japanese/Japanophile bloggers obsessed with blogs about Korea, Eternal Maiden Actualization (EMA) enthusiasts, geriatric porn stars, the local necrofetishist club, parent hatchet murderer kids, the bukkake bucket brigade (you knew I wouldn’t leave that one out), and the Veterans of Unit 731. Or, in other words, average Japanese citizens with their typical Japanophilia-stricken friends.
You could hold it in the Tokyo underground:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....99_pf.html
Rotting corpses for the necrofetishists! Cool!
Then take everybody out for dinner afterwards:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/m.....t-1832216/
People in cages, huh? Typical of the Japanese to want people put into cages. I guess old habits die hard. Sounds like a Japanese night club…or housing for women “employed” by the Imperial Japanese Army. I agree that Koreans put into cages for the amusement of the Japanese is a more accurate history education than what most kids in Japan receive. So if that’s what it takes to get your high school kids off, perhaps it can be arranged. Maybe we can even start off with a game of Batoru Rowaiaru to get your high schoolers really worked up into a frenzy!
How about you do that with a microphone,NES.It’s a lot more amusing than simply burning T-Shirt!
I wonder whether this is what Korea does to a man for just being there,or Korea attracts this type from all over the world…
Sure, Aceface, the attraction is obvious. Teachers here can make 4 to 5K a month working part-time hours, leaving plenty of time to take a central role in virtually every thread on the country’s busiest foreign-language blog. What’s not to enjoy?
Not to imply any professional superiority on my part. My morning today consists of making a narration for a virtual-shopping “experience”.
Funny. I’ve always wondered the same thing about Japan and Japanophiles.
“Funny. I’ve always wondered the same thing about Japan and Japanophiles.”
That’s not a surprise.You see,we are very influenced from Korean culture for centuries…..
The worst thing that comes out from Japanophiles are rejcting Korean claim on Dokdo,Robert.Although I understand that is a crime that cost you a professional career in the west of Sea of Japan.
And apologetics about the comfort women, Japanese imperialism in Korea…
You understand wrong. But then again, I understand in the east of the East Sea, denying Dokdo is Japanese could earn you a black minivan blaring rightist slogans parked in front of your home, assuming the fascists/yakuza types don’t firebomb it first.
“And apologetics about the comfort women, Japanese imperialism in Korea…”
It’s a matter of debate.People agree in general terms but not always the specifics,yet you get equally branded as “apologetics”.
“I understand in the east of the East Sea, denying Dokdo is Japanese could earn you a black minivan blaring rightist slogans parked in front of your home, assuming the fascists/yakuza types don’t firebomb it first.”
You understand wrong,or maybe you know something I don’t know.Care to represent me an actual case?
All I know is one of the leading Dokdo-for-Korea scholar lives and works in Shimane Prefectural University and he is doing just fine.(Although I don’t deny you could be in that situation with the Northern territory dispute with Russia.)
#112 Mizar
Good. 112 is more the Mizar I know and love. As for “straw man ad hominem” arguments, I only hold you, the logician, to a higher standard. I expected that you would call my comparisons a straw man, but they really are the logical conclusion to the reasoning you used to invalidate Gojoseon (which may or may not have existed or could even be considered more of a [gasp!] Manchurian kingdom).
I guess I can’t recall any positive comments from you about Korea. Maybe you can post a few permalinks to update me. My reference to you being lied to was with respect to Dokdo, but you have said or otherwise implied that Koreans are illogical and untrustworthy multiple times. I agree that many are (the events of 2002 provide many examples in addition the “Mad Cowers” of today), but the negativity of your posts are what makes it seem that you paint Korea in broad brush strokes. Perhaps if you had focused more on nostalgia for the “good ol’ days” rather than “Korea has become crappier and Koreans are crappy,” then I would have been more sympathetic. I think that the first half of the 90s was a better time than now with respect to hospitality and friendliness in the bigger cities, but the Korea of the present has improved in other ways over the early 90s (living standards, technology, sanitation, availability of Western food, etc).
Yes, but you also said:
So, someone who has not visited Korea as a foreigner is probably also not well equipped to comment about the experience of it. I haven’t really experienced “the constant and relentless, crude and pervasive in-your-face Korean cultural attitude” while here. It does happen on occasion, but I wouldn’t call it constant and relentless. I suppose, though, it my be due to my overly mellow, congenial personality…
Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing about you…
#120 Linkd
I’m a senior scientist for Samsung, Linkd, not a Hongdae stalker. I can set up experiments in the lab and then bait Aceface while I wait for them to complete. It’s funny that no matter how many times I tell him that I’m baiting him, he keeps taking it. I’m actually starting to like the guy.
Anybody who takes the NES persona too seriously is a fool.
#125 Aceface
Well, since you asked nicely:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/w.....apan_N.htm
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/.....1610899301
http://search.japantimes.co.jp.....215;1.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/w00kie/137412018/
Kinda makes throwing dead pheasants seem tame.
I was thinking of this particular incident:
http://findarticles.com/p/arti....._n16678047
But the others are fine, too.
No offense but those cases have nothing to do with “denying Dokdo is Japanese could earn you a black minivan blaring rightist slogans parked in front of your home”
And which one is related to Dokdo/Takeshima?
Most of them are related to China, Yasukuni etc. And even terrorism by leftist terrorist are counted!
And they are all so isolated. But of course as we Japanese are so prone to evilness, only when the last voice which disagree with every single facts that the Korean and Chinese governments dispute, then we are freed from dangerous nationalism and militarism.
Congrats! You have enough materials to bitch about Japan for another thousand years.
By the way, Rober are you trying to say that Japanophile expats are siding with Japan because they fear that they could be suddenly surounded by black vans?
No, I guess not. Just other stupid red button issues that provoke Japanese responses that are, in the words of one Japanophile blog, just “finger-chopping wacky.”
No. I was simply responding in kind to #123.
I am sorry for my poor english abilities.
“only when the last Japanese voice which disagrees with every Korean and Chinese claims is exterminated”
seems to be better.Maybe not.
Still don’t get it.
If you are trying to say, that if you deny Japanese government claim that Takeshima belongs to Japan, then you would be haunted by black vans or by right-wingers then that is wrong as Aceface said.
Takeshima is not a major issue in Japan.
Northern territory and Senkaku/Diaotou, Yes. But Takeshima/Dokdo,no.
Especially Senkaku is a major issue as not only the PRC but also Taiwan is involved.
“No. I was simply responding in kind to #123.”
Not really,since the one you linked has nothing to do with the rock.
Wasn’t Gerry fired because of his Dokdo opinions,or at least asked by university to stop posting on the issue?
That’s the information I’ve got from your blog and some post of yours like “Look, Gerry, I don’t doubt you know much more about this subject that I. You’ve dedicated a gazillion posts and one university teaching position to it.”which ofcourse could be some twisted inside joke in the hole or my poor English ability isn’t catching the sarcasm.
How the hell are we getting this so far anyway?
P.S
I wholeheartly apologize for everything Japan did during the colonial days plus some nasty “Japanophile”blogs exist in our universe.And I’ll stop taking bait from an anti-japanese troll that somehow getting a favor from the moderator.
Jesus, and I thought Koreans were dense.
Yes. And aren’t lawmakers homes firebombed when they make comments on the Yasukuni Shrine? With their mothers still inside? Perhaps each time Occidentalism mentions Yasukuni, I should mention this in the spirit both Matt and you have mentioned Gerry’s sacking on this blog to suggest that we’re frightened about losing our jobs.
Of course, not without a bit of “debate,” which I assume means debate in the spirit of David Irving and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
You’re free of course to return to the “troll”-free world of Occidentalism.
“And aren’t lawmakers homes firebombed when they make comments on the Yasukuni Shrine? With their mothers still inside?”
Not exactly. Kato was attacked by a former member of a right wing group, but it was not for political motivation or rather using political motivation to excuse his attempt to suicide as later investigation has shown.
They are many lawmakers who are critical against Yasukuni and oppose Yasukuni. The present premier Fukuda included.
“And aren’t lawmakers homes firebombed when they make comments on the Yasukuni Shrine?”
It’s singular,but yes,very embarrassing.
“With their mothers still inside?”
Kato’s mother was out for a walk.she is safe in case you want to know.
“I should mention this in the spirit both Matt and you have mentioned Gerry’s sacking on this blog to suggest that we’re frightened about losing our jobs.”
Your blog,your freedom.
BTW,Robert,what does this got to do with Dokdo again?
“Of course, not without a bit of “debate,” which I assume means debate in the spirit of David Irving and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.”
Well,more like in the spirit of your regular Hanky-bashing or post like “Atrocity Monger Hanley Finds a New Subject: Kim Soo-im”.
But yeah,you don’t take any argument from Japanese or Japanophile.But that’s OK,this is afterall a Korea blog….
Whao, leave me out of this, dude. I have not even commented on this thread. I don’t have a dog in this fight between you and aceface, and he has never even posted on Occidentalism.
Thanks in advance.
Here’s a video showing how dangerous Japan is:
http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Ni.....ce/252558/
And you can continue to be both dense and disingenuous. But that’s OK. You’re Japanese, after all!
And now the moderator of this blog is throwing racial slurrs.
And you are critical against Matt and Occidentalism….
Incredible!
I’m not. Now, if I’d called him a bucktoothed Nip, that would be throwing around a racial slur.
See, I can be disingenuous, too!
Dense,maybe.Disingenuous,hardly.
And somehow I feel Japanese don’t want me to be their representative.
Is it too much to ask you what have I said wrongly to get you so upset,Robert?
Not that I’m continuing to hung around on this great blog,but it could be informative for those who read this on our side of Sea of Japan.
“I don’t have a dog in this fight between you and aceface, and he has never even posted on Occidentalism.”
I don’t have a dog in this fight between Robert either,but somehow I’ve pushed his red button….
This isn’t the first time I’ve been called to “Go back to Occidentalism” call.What have you done,Matt?
Dear Aceface, Tomojiro, and Nigelboy;
I love you guys. Your reactions are priceless. I’m awestruck by your fixation and obsession with Dokdo, which supposedly most Japanese don’t know or care about. Was it really lost on you guys that Dokdo wasn’t relevant to the example? If only I could see the expressions on your faces when you wrote the above posts. You make trolling trolls (my hobby) a truly entertaining experience! I haven’t laughed this hard in a long time.
Thank you so much,
NES
P.S. I found this video of you guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du0wJzA9JfM
to go along with the home video of Mattuhachi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpCcelpvkps
I want to be left out of this. I don’t know why my name is being bandied about in this thread at all, especially since it is nothing to do with me. I also don’t know why speculation about my sex life with “young Korean girls” is legitimate discussion on the open threads, either. Especially since none of the people commenting are in a position to know.
The SNL skit is much better, IMHO.
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=913#comment-60776
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=932#comment-61018
OK, Matt. We’ll leave you out of this.
Aceface, now you know how Tojo felt. Thanks, Hirohito.
It’s always funny when somebody who wants to be left out keeps reading and posting under their name. Still, it just wouldn’t be the same without Matt.
I have to go do something. Have fun.
This thread was about Tourism in Korea.Robert himself mentioned Dokdo.
I thought there was once a rule that nobody should post off-topic posts, wasn’t it?
If you have something to say,why don’t you send a private mail to Matt or counter argue on his block rather bringin in off-topic material BY THE MODERATOR himself?
Robert, I don’t get it. This is the first time I saw the comment on the first link, and the second I already dealt with, as you can see from the post right below the one you linked.
None of this tit-for-tat has anything to do with me, and your tar baby isn’t even a commenter on my site.
There are no actual issues being discussed here, so I do not see why I should be wrapped up in this particular storm in a teacup.
Tomo,It’s his blog,And the man wants Bucktoothed Nip to stay quiet.
As for Shakuhachi,he says
“OK but ease up on the language regarding Mr Koehler. No matter what happens over there, whether every open thread is going to be speculation about my sex life or whatever, I won’t let it be said that I am tacitly allowing this site to be used as a platform to attack him.”
He does have some class on this one.
Ace you are right. I got the feeling that actually Robert thought that you are wiesunja. I guess that’s why he fingered you to occidentalism.
Funny,one year ago I counter argued wiesunja because he said horrible things about Korean. Initially I thought that he was a Japanese troll, but he wasn’t. He couldn’t understand a word Japanese.
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=523
Sad, I have read this blog for almost three years.
class? The dude has none. First of all, no one has seen what he looks like, or knows his actual name.
Yet, he indulges in providing pics, addresses, personal information to use in defamation against REAL people, such as in DBlatt, Dbto, Mpltn, some other guy who left Korea for Hawaii, etc.
all we know is that a male claimed he was handsome.
“Sad, I have read this blog for almost three years.”
That’s right pal,it is you who encouraged me to participate in the “debate” here on Ampontan many moos ago.You shold feel responsible!(笑）
wjk:
Leave Shakuhachi out of this will you?
병신자, 시끄러우네. 너의 원죄를 질렸다. 그만 해라.
I am going to go with Rob on this one. I think he works for the tourism board. Point Robert!
” ‘Now all you need to do is free your mind from a neolithic kneejerk sensibilities and break free of imputing tendencies to others that are just not there.’…Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing about you…”
Thank you for punctuating my point.
oh btw, aceface were you ponta before? kind of forgot about that.
aceface is not Ponta and Ponta is not aceface.
If you are interested read just the discussion in the comment section of this thread.
http://ampontan.wordpress.com/.....-clapping/
“I guess I can’t recall any positive comments from you about Korea. Maybe you can post a few permalinks to update me. My reference to you being lied to was with respect to Dokdo, but you have said or otherwise implied that Koreans are illogical and untrustworthy multiple times. I agree that many are (the events of 2002 provide many examples in addition the “Mad Cowers” of today), but the negativity of your posts are what makes it seem that you paint Korea in broad brush strokes. Perhaps if you had focused more on nostalgia for the ‘good ol’ days’ rather than ‘Korea has become crappier and Koreans are crappy,’ then I would have been more sympathetic.”
Thanks for that clarification.
In response, it’s not sympathy or nostalgia I’m after. It’s logic, objectivity, balance and perspective.
As for positive comments on Korea, that is not my purpose here. I save those for social occasions. In the context of critical analysis, the all-too-comment Korean self-aggrandizement, to the extent that it crosses over into triumphalism, requires counterbalance, which I am glad to provide.
As for negativity or hatred, I have no use for these. I call myself Mizar5 because I strive for an otherworldly and insensitive (or asensitive) rationality that can appear quite cold. This is not to be confused with an emotive response, which what I stand in counterbalance to.
One of the things I fault in particular are falacious arguments based on ploys for sympathy (argumentum ad misericordiam, or appeal to pity; special pleading). In Korea this often takes the form of “we’re special – you can’t possibly understand us.” In the US this fallacy often takes the form of challenging a person’s patriotism or personal morality for maintaining a certain political position.
In this regard, you may have noticed that I am equally scathing in my attacks on, say, Korean progressives and American conservatives. When a Korean scholar attempts to foist his conviction that Dokdo is historically Korean without deeming it necessary to provide a single conclusive or cogent argument to support the position, yes, I am critical. That criticism would hold even if I were to support his position.
Likewise, when John McCain attempts to excuse a gaffe with the reminder that he was once a POW, excuse me for not accepting this as a valid argument either.
So pardon me if I do not couch all my arguments with the obligatory tip of the hat to sympathy when speaking the unadorned, unapologetic, unprejudiced, dispassionate truth. If you fault my criticisms for being unsympathetic, I accept that criticism. But if you characterize them as “negative, “anti-”, or ad hominem, I will properly point out that this is reification.
Thanks again for the opportunity to clarify the issue of – to quote another gadfly – “why be critical”
No.I’m not Ponta.
http://ampontan.wordpress.com/.....-clapping/
(I liked the idea though.)
#160 Mizar
Live long and prosper, Mizar.
Call it: Time of death (for this thread), August 27 at 11:27 am
A good six days of fun, no?
Back at ya NES!
meep snorp.
snorp schliph schnepp.
EVERYBODY, PLEASE JUST LEAVE ME OUT OF THIS! I DON’T KNOW WHY EVERYBODY KEEPS TALKING ABOUT ME!
Cue theme song (from another “non-white” guy – lolz):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keU5TQ7nkuM
Note to wiesunja (AKA, my biggest fan and Matt’s soxpuppet): I never “spew racial epithet after racial epithet.” I also tend not to “tat” but prefer to “tit” instead. Newton’s Third Law can be a b- sometimes. Enjoy the look into the fun house mirror. Are you smart enough to deconvolute the image? (BTW, nice name.)
While skulking around “the hole,” try to rationalize the following posts:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....ent-164287
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....ent-161138
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....ent-176233
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....ent-173215
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....ent-176389
“NES is an expat English teacher. No, wait! He’s a USFK soldier. Oh, no! Now he’s a Korean/gyopo.” lol
P.S. Yeah, Linkd, good times. Where’s Wangkon’s pic of the beaten dead horse?
NES, when did you stop beating your wife?
As for saying that I am using sockpuppets, well it isn’t true and I would be insulted if you were not so low class. Robert can easily confirm that I am not using sockpuppets, and furthermore I have been a responsible commenter on this site for the last 5 years. You on the other hand are a commenter that makes false accusations, writes about your pornographic viewing habits then ascribe it to other people, and engage in racial slander.
You are a coward that uses anonymity to attempt to upset other people you disagree with. You sir are a troll.
#167 SH
It’s just my opinion, Matt, but you don’t seem to be doing a very good job of staying out of this thread.
Typical example of Matt displaying high class, making responsible commentary, and taking the high road. My late wife passed away due to complications from colitis at the end of 2006. It was her father, in his grief, beating on me at the beginning of the funeral. Does this help satisfy your personal obsession with me?
Here’s one of many, many examples of Matt’s “responsible commentary” and “playing well with others” (I also notice that I’m not the first person he’s obsessed over knowing personal info about while accusing them of being a gyopo):
shakuhachi (#27): “I am talking about your real name, not your assumed Spanish name, kyopo. Hypocritical is you, not me. I am consistent – I have never presented a different face from the one I show here. Let us see your photo – we want to see what an intellectual midget kyopo looks like.”
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/.....e-returns/
What was that about racial slander again?
shakuhachi: “When do we get the marmots guide to hostess clubs? Speaking of that, are there any room salon review sites on the Korean web?”
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/.....ment-66222
The comment that won shakuhachi the Marmot’s Sensitivity and Humanity Award:
shakuhachi: “Are you saying that your grandmother was a comfort woman???”
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....ent-181102
Why make such a tempest in a teapot over the soxpuppet comment? You actually took that seriously?
I have to say, in light of your accusations, you are one of the most hypocritical, dense, and disingenuous individuals I have ever encountered. Perhaps Aceface was right about certain people gravitating towards certain countries.
Quoting myself from #127: “Anybody who takes the NES persona too seriously is a fool.”
It’s my anonymity that upsets you? I’m flattered by your personal interest in me. What would you like to know and what would be the point of knowing it?
DFTT, Matt.
#161, hehe sorry for the confusion, not too many Japanese posters here and he was one of the few that typed out more detailed posts (that don’t come around anymore).
Well, back on topic…while I personally think that Korea does not have much to offer city-wise (other than food), I’ve always felt that most major cities are pretty bland regardless. The countryside has always provided the best experiences, and the people are usually kinder too. Those travel agencies really should be put out of business :S
Nevermind NES. I wash my hands of you. If you make any false accusations of sockpuppeting in the future (which is a major trolling act) I will simply take it up with the site administrator.
Hahaha!!! Funny exchanges.
NES, well-spoken in #168. And trust me, Matt will NOT wash his hands of you.
BTW, why doesn’t he post HIS picture?
And after looking at my tracer, WHO is this guy in Australia that’s been hitting my blog like crazy looking for pictures and videos? I don’t HAVE any pictures (or videos for that matter) on my blog…at least that show my face. Going by the timing on my tracer, he’s been reading ALL FREAKIN’ NIGHT AND DAY for the past two days!
Anyway, what an interesting exchange.
“Beat your wife on the wedding day, and your married life will be happy”
-Japanese Proverb
http://thinkexist.com/quotatio.....80008.html
Japan’s consul general in Vancouver will be returning home after pleading guilty to assaulting his wife.
Shuji Simokoji entered a guilty plea, but was given an absolute discharge which means he will serve no jail time and have no criminal record.
Shimokoji admitted striking his wife during an argument last month. He bruised her face and arms.
The former consul general then said wife-beating was “a cultural thing and not a big deal.” That comment outraged officials in Japan. Shimokoji later apologized for the remark and for hitting his wife.
The Japanese Foreign Ministry has ordered Shimokoki to return home.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story.....90304.html
The Chiba District Court sentenced a 23-year-old man to life in prison Tuesday for beating to death a 16-year-old girl he had wed in a sham marriage and torching the body with friends in 2003.
Hironobu Suzuki, 23, had married Yuko Ishibashi the same year and adopted her family name in the hope of borrowing more money from moneylenders. But he decided to kill her for fear that she might disclose the real reason for the marriage, resulting in the suspension on his sentence being lifted, the ruling said. (Kyodo News)
http://asianfanatics.net/forum/-talk85164.html
#170 Soxpuwiesunhachi Shagahoochie Accidentalism
Matt, I tried to find your “about” or “personal information page” at Occidentalism, but it doesn’t seem you have one. Are you a coward, or do you think that “Matt” is a unique enough name to make you not anonymous? What are your full name, e-mail address, home address, work address, educational background, and work history? Just upload your resume. Please also include a recent picture of yourself. Stop being a coward by making me upset with your anonymity. Did I give you 화병 with my anonymity?
I liked your technology page: “Help me guyz! The haxors have got me! Theyz sent their botz!” lol
I’ll be sure not to visit again.
[NES shaking in boots]
A super-duper trolling act?! Wow! That’s scary! I should be more careful then, or you might call the sockpuppet police. As the site administrator of Occidentalism, how did you punish Wiesunja for accusing me of being both NES and Stacked while using a controllable proxy (soxpuppeting)? (That accusation made me so angry that I almost went to beat my wife’s grave, but then I realized that I’m not Japanese. lol)
If you are not Wiesunja in person, then you are at least one in meaning.
I can’t speak for the Marmot, but I’m guessing he’d just tell you to “piss off,” “너나 잘해,” “pot kettle black,” “똥묻은개는 재묻은개한테 “니가 더럽다”고 하고있네,” or some clever and succinct witticism. There’s probably some four-character proverb he’d use.
Be sure to clean all the tar out from under your fingernails. I’m probably the stickiest “tar baby” you’ve ever tangled with.
[NES sprinkles salt on the ground]
Man NES, I just checked out occidentalism. wiesunja doesn’t seem to like you or Korea or Robert. His employers sure haven’t been getting their money’s worth, since it seems wiesunja spent all day bad-mouthing you over there. When did you piss in HIS miso soup?
And, I noticed at lunch the other day that for a Korean, you sure are one super-tall, white, hairy, big-nosed, big-blue-eyed, conceived-by-two-white-Caucasians guy. You’ve never came across as a Koreaphile, either. Hard to reconcile all that with wiesunja’s assessment.
Oh, and for those paying attention to this eternal post, I’m not NES’s sockpuppet, I’ve been posting here for about a year more than NES.
cmm — I banned wiesunja (keeps trying to come back from time to time, though), which is why he’s upset at me. As for why he has such issues with Korea and gyopo, I care not speculate other than to say I imagine the root cause is personal.
NES — I think you’ve made your point. If we could all just move along…
JK, you have a blog?
Yeah. Kinda my own personal hobby where I don’t talk about national and world issues hardly at all….but DAMN if I don’t have one serious Japanophile reader in Australia who comments at the Marmot’s Hole regularly.
NES is my new hero.
Matt of Occidentalism is a troll of trolls.
This is what he did.
When I was confronting him with standard wjk fashion, it upset him so much, that he and Ponta were scavenging my personal site for anything and anything at all that he could post on Occidentalism !
Now, I read here that there is independent evidence that he did the EXACT same to JK.
What a troll of trolls !
Let’s not forget Matt of Occidentalism loved posting defaming stuff on Occ regarding DBlatt, Metropolitan, Kushibo, and Debito.
All we know is that he is Matt, and some guy in Australia and Japan are always hitting up visit counts to the hundreds on websites that usually draw traffic of maybe 10 a day on a busy day.
It has to be Matt and Ponta.
Never release any email address, real name, etc on Occidentalism.
They will use it to their advantage when you disagree with them.
I have concluded that Matt is not a real human, but a Japanese robot made by a Japanese lab that occasionally bangs some dwaenjang boji’s in hoju.
and the beauty of it is, he denies it.
he was so afraid that this will cause a dramatic drop off of “discussions” at Occ that he made a plea to Koehler to ban me at rjkoehler.com.
hey, buddy, all you have is some twisted Japanophiles, you, and the regular panel of Japanese guys, plus the normal human being Bevers at your “discussions”.
you’ll never draw as much as rjkoehler.com.
no, your blog won’t pay for it self.
but, seriously, I am speaking for myself, of course, but how does my web site of 10 visits or so in a day, by friends, draw some odd visits from Japan and Australia, reading every single entry that I wrote as sort of a diary, over the exact time frame when I was being most riling to Matt of Occidentalism?
this is internet terror at its finest.
call the police.
cut his mechanical balls off.
turn off the switch.
about the first thing he did was search for “pics”.
ha, ha, ha. I posted none !
well, correction.
The Japanese and Australia invasion stopped at the exact time frame I complained about the issue on rjkoehler.com.
sort of like a speeding car stepping on brakes when the cop car is in view.
that was further proof for me.
I asked here, and like magic, nobody from Japan or Australia registred a visit again.
That was like 2 years ago?
and never happenned again.
JK and wjk,
Post the IP addresses and details and have Robert confirm or deny that it is me.
As I have said numerous times in regards to these false allegations, put up or shut up.
Robert, this is your site and it is your call, but these two have been saying this for some time. Surely you can ask them to substantiate what they are saying, and if they do not, to refrain from doing so in the future. I have already been falsely accused of things that you well know I am not doing in this thread enough already.
put up what? copy and paste site tracker data? That’s the only “evidence” I have.
you know what you did.
wjk, Robert knows my details. Post what you have that makes you think it is me. Robert can confirm if it is me or not.
BTW, you are misquoting me again. I did not use the word “evidence” – do not put the word in quotation marks like I actually wrote that. And don’t you dare suggest I use racial slurs towards black people. Are you going to apologise for trying to spread that rumour, you vicious little creep?
I doubt Robert wants to get involved in your bathhouse antics.
user-81, then he can put a stop to this kind of trolling.
As I said, if we could all just move along…
what is robert going to do with site tracker data, saying “Japan, on x-x-xxxx, xx pm, etc, Australia…..”?
nothing.
by the way, you care to explain how you manage to post someone’s photo, their web entries, and stuff
WITHOUT snooping and digging thru their site?
I mean, you remember Daniel Barrenblatt, right?
He shut down his site after you SNOOPED around his site.
Come on, be honest.
Every info posted on your site is subject to be misused by YOU.
You’re a criminal.
Robert, I’m not going to discuss this any further.
thank you for putting up with me.
I’ll try to restrain my behavior.
Holy shit! Right after I posted #176, my blog data showed a bunch of hits from Australia, Japan, Monterey, and Ursa Major. If you’re looking for pictures of me snogging Kim Jong Il’s former concubine #97 in a room salon at the Kaesong Industrial Zone, those
have been removednever happened.He didn’t shut down his site, you retard. The site is right here. It is a commercial site promoting his book. There was no snooping and nothing untoward. Aren’t your false accusations criminal? Are you going to apologise to me now, for this accusation, and the one about using racial slurs towards black people? When has anything you have said about me ever been true?
this is what Matt of Occidentalism is all about…
protect yourselves and avoid his site.
Maybe I’m a “retard” too, since this is what I got when I followed that link::
wjk, so what does that have to do with your accusations? What exactly am I doing that is wrong? Like I wrote earlier, 병신자, 시끄러우네. 너의 원죄를 질렸다. 그만 해라”.
Robert, sorry, that I could not restrain myself.
I’m really done here,
But, isn’t his Korean kind of like what you expect from a machine translation?
All right, I’m done. I’ll never talk to trash again.
user-81, it was fine 5 minutes ago. It is geocities, so you and me looking probably exceeded the bandwidth limit. A search on the address of google proves that it is currently a live site and is being spidered. His last writing on the blog is only a couple of weeks ago, while it is more than a year since I had anything to do with him. Sure it will be back up shortly.
I can access the site. Won’t make an ounce of difference in anyone’s opinion of the other site in question, I’m sure, but still.
And what the hell does 너의 원죄를 질렸다 mean? “I have tired of your original sin?” (approximating the awkwardness of that sentence, of course)
And next time you want to call someone a cripple, make sure to leave out the ‘자’ in 병신자. One would call someone an “asshole”, not “One who is an asshole”.
He called him a retard, not a cripple. And this 원죄 also means baseless accusations.
bumfromkorea, 원죄 is false accusation.
http://engdic.daum.net/dicen/s.....=0&y=0
But I think the penis-minded wjk might actually be responsible for original sin.
actually, shaku, I am amazed that you are citing his website is open now as some sort of smoke screen to claim that I am lying.
Everyone, google, Daniel Barrenblatt, and Occidentalism. There is portion where shaku gets an orgasm, claiming his efforts have caused Daniel to “hide” by shutting down his website.
wjk is opinionated, but not a lier, like Shaku.
…Proves that if ignorant Japanophiles/Japs bastardize a concept repetitively enough, they can eclipse traditional memes with new, vulgar definitions and thus create patterns of their own. Unfortunate. I’d rather have every non-Jap/non-Japanophile stop following such erroneous trends which are misinformed in the first place. Ie, “hwabyung” doesn’t mean what Japs believe it means.
I think your point could have been better put without using the term “Japs,” which will now become the focus of the retorts.
Seriously… this post and much of the invctive in it may go some way to answe why tourists dont come to Korea.
And also may be part of the reason why there is Anti-Korea feeling
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....ent-186785
As a Catholic, I see no insult in 병신자 (病信者)
And the condescension and disingenuousness may go some way to answer why Japan, too, has problems dealing with its neighbors.
His website never closed fool, and of course you are lying. Don’t tell people to google something, just post what you say I wrote and be done with it. Nothing you have ever said about me has turned out to be true, so how is that not lies?
@207… and others.
Website working today
@206…
RK… my comment was merely suggesting that the original post was about tourism to korea and why it is lacking (with perhaps an implication from me that it was to be constuctive/positive).
But many of the comments were denigrative of both Koreans and foreigners, which I dont think helps at all.
If a person looking to researsh Korea as a possible holiday destination check this, they may well stay home.
PS… interesting view of the world you have… does ‘my flag’ automatically assign me as a Japanese national or Japanophile?
I am neither, and dont understand how bringing up Japan’s relationship with the world has much to do with Korea and its tourism industry.
In fact, I neither said you were Japanese or a Japanophile. I simply pointed out that the condescension and disingenuousness in some of the comments may explain — at least partially — some of the invective in the comments.
Parenthetically, it appears rather self-contradictory that some here will use the terms “anti-Korean bigot” and “Japanophile” as though they were interchangeable – as if to condone bigotry against one nation while strongly condemning bigotry against another.
How can you make one charge of bigotry stick while faulting someone for not exhibiting sufficient bigotry in another instance.
The fact is no people are uniformly good or evil. Why would someone demand an apology for past crimes from “Japan” when this “Japan” no longer exists. The Japanese people you vilify were not even born at the time and share no blame for those events.
All we have left today are human beings who happen to have been born in different neighborhoods. Why approach them with prejudice?
Marmot: “I think your point could have been better put without using the term “Japs,” which will now become the focus of the retorts.”
Good point!
Dirty Japs make fun of Korean hairdos
Vicky says no nudes for the Japs
North claims evil Japs stole gold medal
I had hit my quota in the previous comment.
Yanks, Euros, Japs grouping up on Korean firms
The difference being, I was being sarcastic when I used it. I assume you knew that, though.
“I assume you knew that, though.”
Winky face! Don’t you and Mizar5 know what winky face means?
Really, I hate that word.
#202 abcdefg
Sorry, abcdefg. I know what it means and how to use it. Accidentalism has a page link at the top entitled “화병faq,” and I was making fun of Mattuhachi in reference to that page. To make it up to you, I’ll take you out for some bisuteki the next time we meet.
#210 Mizar
100% correct with regards to the Japanese people, but I think the government should officially own up in word and not retract later.
While those who didn’t commit atrocities should not be accused based on guilt by association, those who whitewash and make apologetics for such atrocities should be held accountable for their words. BTW, Aceface is actually somewhat reasonable.
Go to Occidentalism and read through the posts and comments about Korea. You’ll read a lot about how all Koreans are racists mixed in with racial slurs against Koreans in the same posts. The site is a tribute to hypocrisy. There’s no reason to be upset by it. It would be like getting upset that the sewer is full of shit.
“Have a place for every thing, and keep every thing in its proper place.”
Hi. I stumbled across this site while researching information about the Korean tourism industry. I actually work for a large Canadian travel/tourist organization and based up here in Vancouver which is home to a large Asian population consiting mostly of ethnic Chinese from HK. It’s interesting because this topic exactly matches the research of what I am doing which is trying to identify ways to overcome the obstacles facing the promotion of tourism to Korea. What is more interesting is the comment above by the user “Catch the Chicken” who basically stated that lack of brand image, foreigner-unfriendly facilities (English language knowledge, infrastructure, etc.) the main stumbling block is Korea’s penchant for exuding a xenophobic and “ugly” image of nationalistic bigotry. While this does not make much sense to most westerners who for the most part hardly know about Korea nor have any interest from the start due to being overshadowed by China, Japan, and even Thailand, what strikes me as being very interesting is that this reason is probably the number one gripe I hear from other Asian travellers (most of them Chinese due to our Canadian market) of why they do not want or have no interest in actively getting to know or explore Korea. I have read this entire thread and spend the day reading alot of the other posts in here including the one on Anti-Korean sentiment in China, and I am quite perturbed since the comments by many of the posters do in fact reflect this idea.
After reading the comments, I get the feeling that the Korean posters (or those who support Korea) will try to defend Korea to no end. From what I have seen, the Chinese or Japanese posters will try to debate and argue using intellect and mature discussion tactics while citing evidence and emperical data. In contrast, the method by which the Korean supporters here seem to discuss or debate an issue is to make snide remarks about another country, make asinine insults about that country’s culture, and use racist language or profanity and post irrevalent links to sites which poke fun at another country in the fashion of an elementary school student’s behavior but add very little to intellectual discussion. This difference in behavior between the Korean supporting posters and others speaks volumes about the difference in maturity levels and attitudes between the people in Korea and other Asian countries.
Many Asian-themed sites such as this will show a very heavy favoritism to Korea, and to a lesser extent, China and will not tolerate the use of racial epithets aimed towards Koreans or Chinese. However, I have noticed that many of them, this one included, will freely tolerate and actually encourage the use of racist language aimed toward Japan. Even, Chinese, who in my opinon have more of a right to be resentful of Japan than do Koreans, actully have told me that they would much rather visit Japan than Korea due to their image as well as the feeling that “nothing is interesting in Korea since it basically is the same as what they have seen in China or Taiwan. I would just like to say to the people here that although many of you think that the trolling comments found on this blog are all for fun and games for getting your rocks off on nationalistic fervor, there is a great deal of harm being done to the image of Koreans as these posts are seen by millions of people, such as myself, on the internet.
“This difference in behavior between the Korean supporting posters and others speaks volumes about the difference in maturity levels and attitudes between the people in Korea and other Asian countries.”
Shannon, there are few Korean citizens here. You’ve wildly misinterpreted this blog if you think it’s a good example of anything other than what foreigners who are/were in Korea think about Korea and the rest of Asia.
Is that how you describe it, eh?
Hello Robert Koehler,
Yes, that is what I think. I guess it really bothers you to find out that that is the opinion of what many people, such as myself, think. Let me guess..who do you think is to blame for that? China? Japan? Also, I know it probably might disappoint you to know this, but I am neither Chinese let alone Asian.
User 81,
Yes, I know that opinions vary widely and that this cannot represent an entire population. On the other hand, the fact of the matter is that these not-so-admirable comments do exist and therefore are a part of the Korean substance. I mean, there are people in the world who do not have 10 fingers and 10 toes. Just because of that is it wrong and unjustified for me to say, “Humans have 10 fingers and 10 toes”?
Shannon, I might be misunderstanding your first comment but it seems like you were saying the pro-Korea comments represented how Koreans think and the anti-Korea comments represented how non-Koreans (other Asians?) think. I was only saying that there are very few Korean citizens on this blog, so that would be a bad assumption.
Doesn’t bother me at all. Lots of people like yourself like to get onto Korean websites and talk about how “mature” the Japanese/Chinese are compared to Korea.
Again, doesn’t disappoint. Doesn’t even surprise — tons of whiteboy Japanophiles out there.
PS: Say hi to beongdaeggi.
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