Per the AP, newly released pages from Tojo’s journal reveal that the then Japanese Primer (and current Class A war criminal) wanted to keep fighting after the bomb was dropped on Nagasaki.
Per the article:
“We now have to see our country surrender to the enemy without demonstrating our power up to 120 percent,” Tojo wrote on Aug. 13, 1945, just two days before Japan gave up. “We are now on a course for a humiliating peace, or rather a humiliating surrender.”
Tojo also criticized his colleagues, accusing government leaders of “being scared of enemy threats and easily throwing their hands up.” Surrender proponents were “frightened by ‘the new type of bomb’ and terrified by the Soviet Union’s entry into the war,” he wrote.
The stridency of the writings is remarkable considering they were penned just days after the U.S. atomic bombs incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing some 200,000 people and posing the threat of the complete destruction of Japan.
Clearly, Tojo had reality perception problems towards the end of the war…
{ 137 comments… read them below or add one }
What a freakin’ diehard! But Tojo is a lot less interesting than the Iraqi Information Minister…
Anyway, for those of you with an intellectual interest in the last days of the Pacific War, this article by Yukiko Koshiro is pretty interesting.
It’s either political posturing or the words of a man who knew he’d be sentenced to death upon Japan’s defeat. He couldn’t have been naive enough to have believed that Japan could still win the war, especially not after the US Navy bounced back quickly from the attack on Pearl Harbor. I’m sure he received reports on the battles in the Pacific islands and was most certainly aware that it was increasingly difficult to provide supplies and reinforcements to Japanese soldiers.
He knew that defeat was about to swallow Japan and that the executioner was coming to knock at his door.
So these pages have just been released, and it’s 2008. This implies that they were kept secret, guarded, held back until now. Or, I guess, ignored, overlooked, passed up for more interesting things.
Oh, so it looks like overlooked and passed up is the more accurate assessment. I wonder if Tojo’s defense lawyer thought of publishing them in a book first?
Arrogant title.
Anyways, Tojo wasn’t in charge when Japan surrendered. He resigned (was made to resign) when Japan lost Saipan, and wasn’t in a position to decide things thereafter.
He deservedly ended up on the end of a rope.
I am not saying that the Japanese were nice during World War II, but I do not think they were as bad as people were made to believe. Besides, the allies were not that nice, either.
Well… the allies didn’t summarily execute their prisoners.
Or have their soldiers raze entire cities.
With the exception of firebombing Japanese cities, there is no point in trying to compare Japanese and Allied atrocities. There frankly isn’t a comparison.
The Japanese army got horribly bogged down in China (and deservedly so) and was a cancerous growth that caused them to look to Indonesia and Indochina to get additional resources to fuel their war machine. The land grab south of China got them in direct confrontation with the UK and the Americans… and their decision to attack the U.S. pretty much sealed their fate.
Back then, the U.S. was able to supply 120% of their own oil… so it didn’t matter how much of the Pacific and Asia Japan owned, the U.S. just had more under the hood to beat them however you cut it.
#7, I was quoting gbevers, for fun.
Hahahaha… I get it!
“Well… the allies didn’t summarily execute their prisoners”
No. They didn’t. Soviets and Mongolians accompanied Japanese POWs for about a decade in concentration camps.
“Or have their soldiers raze entire cities”
Actually I can come up with a few right now.
Oh, btw, I apologize in the name of Japanese nation for everything in advance.
WangKon936
“then Japanese Primer (and current Class A war criminal)”
Tojo resigned Prime Minister of Japan on July 18, 1944. So, he was not the PM in August 1945.
From the comments made by some Aussies here, it seems that quite a few prison guards in the Japanese military were Koreans… and is remembered that way.
And if I remember right, Korean officers served in the Kwantung Army in Manchuria snuffing out “communist partisan forces”… One even became the president of S Korea later… Many Koreans colonized Manchuria with backup of Imperial Japan… Rumors say that they were equally hated by the native Chinese… Rumors easily found in Chinese websites, that is. I hope this is one of those false rumors that was discussed here a couple days back.
“Well… the allies didn’t summarily execute their prisoners.
Or have their soldiers raze entire cities.”
Mmm, yes they did. Do the names Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki ring any bells?
#13: two points.
#1 is that the Axis Powers started it.
#2 is that the Allies were far more generous and much less violent to their defeated foes than those foes had been to the people they conquered.
Allied soldiers reported summarily executing Japanese soldiers. This kind of thing happened, although not as a matter of policy.
#14:
One point. You mean the Americans, not the Allies. Don’t forget our Союз Советских Социалистических Республик, otherwise known as the USSR!
“Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki ring any bells?”
Allied soldiers did not raze those cities. They were fire bombed or atomic bombed by planes and pilots.
“Allied soldiers did not raze those cities. They were fire bombed or atomic bombed by planes and pilots.”
OK, Naha, Okinawa in 1945 and Berlin, Germany in 1944.
Okinawa was more of a island, not a city.
Berlin… I’ll have to give the Russians that one. The war on the Eastern Front was a pretty hard one with both sides who had axes to grind.
Enough with comparing who’s evil and the never ending blame-game. What happened happened, the leaders then are long gone, and people today shouldn’t be blamed for anything.
Is hatred all that we learned from WWII? From the ashes of WWII rose the EU and also the WTO. Mutual prosperity, tolerance, and co-existence is the name of the game.
“Okinawa was more of a island, not a city.”
Nope. Naha was/is a big city.
#14,
What’s that got to do with anything? Did or didn’t they firebomb Dresden and nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
#17,
That’s a disingenuous argument since the bombs were dropped by Allied soldiers.
#17 is pretty bizarre, alright. Dresden was what, like 2000 bombers, each with a crew of – what? 6 guys? And then their fighter escorts, and why not count the ground crews who put those planes up, and I’d say an ‘air army’ of probably 20 or 30 thousand razed Dresden.
I dunno how any city in Okinawa can be used as an example for something like this, considering Imperial soldiers used Okinawans as human shield, force-drafted them, took their food and left them to starve to death, and tricked them into committing mass suicide. But that’s beside the point I wanted to make…
It’s war. People do fucked up things to people during war, regardless of how noble or evil (ha!) the armies are (See: Korean War). The ‘righteous’ South Korean army almost murdered my granddad in a mass execution (gun to the back with graves dug in front) because the North Koreans spared him during a people’s court (accompanied by bamboo spears) on the account that people told the NK soldiers he was a good guy despite being a landowner. And since Japanese people can’t be unanimously evil (they’re not orcs or goblins from Lord of the Ring), decent Japanese people lived in Korea during occupation (despite it sucking in many ways for various people). So enough with who massacred who and who raped who in this thread. We are ignoring the gigantic issue here:
Was Tojo also known for eating cheese at a frequent rate?
Weren’t pilots and airplane crew part of the U.S. Army back then? (As opposed to their own separate branch)
“Allied soldiers reported summarily executing Japanese soldiers. This kind of thing happened, although not as a matter of policy.”
I think the Australians may have adopted somewhat of a “no prisoners” attitude in New Guinea after learning the Japanese were eating Australians, in addition to the torture, murder, and general abuse they typically subjected prisoners to. I imagine that Japanese tactics like playing dead and pretending to surrender (only to suddenly resume fighting, of course) resulted in the unwillingness of many American soldiers to take prisoners on Saipan, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, and elsewhere. Then again, not a lot of Japanese soldiers were necessarily all that into the idea of surrendering in the first place, were they?
Hitler invited the Dresden bombing on 7 September 1940 by opening up the Blitz on London.
It’s easy for guys like Tojo to sabre rattle when it’s the poor guy at the front line who gets his head blown off. Whilst the sabre rattler is usually safe in his concrete bunker.
Ugggh. I hate the rationalizations people use when it comes to Allied firebombing. If a man rapes my wife and kills my children, no, I am not in any way whatsoever morally absolved if I then rape his wife and murder his children. In the same way, neither the Holocaust, the Blitz nor Nanjing do anything to make carpet bombing civilian population centers more respectable.
It was state terrorism. Call it what it is. That it worked is beside the point; when you justify Allied firebombings, or the Atomic bombings, you are on some level acknowledging that you accept state terrorism as acceptable policy, if the circumstances are right.
“considering Imperial soldiers used Okinawans as human shield, force-drafted them, took their food and left them to starve to death, and tricked them into committing mass suicide. But that’s beside the point I wanted to make…”
First off, most of the imperial soldiers in Okinawa were from Okinawa.
Secondly, I don’t think using civilians as human shield can be any effective tactic in World War 2 since neither side cared much about civilian casualties.
Anyway, it wasn’t the option at the time and the civilians had no choice but face the massive American invasion since almost all the ferries to the mainland were sunk by American subs including evacuating school children.
Thirdly, Imperial soldiers didn’t take “their” food, since there weren’t any from the beginning because the ports were already mined and blockaded for weeks.
Fourth, army “tricked” civilians to commit mass suicide is a myth of Japanese progressive.
And lastly, “force-drafted” is a tautology.
BTW, wasn’t the subject whether the allied soldiers razed entire cities or not?
Well they did. Entire cities in Okinawa including the prefectural capital of Naha was burned to the ground by massive shelling from March to June in 1945. I think the Australians may have adopted somewhat of a “no prisoners” attitude in New Guinea after learning the Japanese were eating Australians, in addition to the torture, murder, and general abuse they typically subjected prisoners to.
“I think the Australians may have adopted somewhat of a “no prisoners” attitude in New Guinea after learning the Japanese were eating Australians, in addition to the torture, murder, and general abuse they typically subjected prisoners to. ”
I disagree. Since abuse to allied POWs and cannibalism were uncovered after Japanese defeat, not before.
“I disagree.Since abuse to allied POWs and cannivalism were uncovered after Japanese defeat,not before.”
Tell that to the guy who made this poster.
http://bss.sfsu.edu/internment/Assets/murder2.jpg
Allied intelligence wasn’t so dense that they didn’t know about thousands of their prisoners being used as expendable slave labor; Allied propaganda wasn’t so dense that it didn’t exploit that abuse to the hilt to generate hatred towards the enemy.
#26, Yes, you are correct, the aviation personnel of the US Army in World War II were part of the US Army Air Force, which became an independent branch of the service in 1947. However, the US has several other air arms, including Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard aviation as well, both then and now. However, the term “soldier” doesn’t really apply to any American flyers in common reference though, at least in the US. Airmen, Aviators, Airedales, etc. are normal terms of reference.
#30, You might want to research further and check additional references for more accurate WWII information. The Japanese garrison on Okinawa was heavily reinforced from off-island in July and August of 1944. It was not a native force, though Okinawan conscripts did form a part of it. And perhaps if the Japanese Army had made Naha an “open city” as MacArthur did to Manila in 1941, Naha would not have been devastated. However, it seems the Manila of Feb-Mar 1945 template was used by the Japanese defenders on Okinawa. Also, abuse to Allied POWs was known in the US government by 1943, and very well known by the public by mid-1944 after survivors from the Philippine campaign of 1941-42 like the famous pilot Ed Dyess escaped from the islands, with personal experience of the Bataan Death March, etc.
“I disagree. Since abuse to allied POWs and cannibalism were uncovered after Japanese defeat, not before.”
I don’t think that’s correct. Australian soldiers discovered recently eaten remains of some of their fellow soldiers. This was discovered during the battle for Papua. This would have been sometime in late 1942 I believe. (I would assume, correctly I think, that numerous other abuses of Allied POWS were uncovered as territory previously conquered by the Japanese fell to the Allies, not just after the war.)
A few high profile cases (i.e. the high ranking Japanese officer who ate part of a downed American airman) may have been discovered after the war, but Australian soldiers in New Guinea would have learned – very quickly I imagine – about what the Japanese had been up to. (This was in addition to not really taking Australian prisoners to start with.) And, from what I’ve heard, the Australians were more than a little pissed off. (Can’t blame them.)
I seem to recall having read about American soldiers being under the impression that some Japanese soldiers were practicing cannibalism. Whether this is due to things they actually witnessed or just stories they heard, I’m not sure.
Things would easier for Japan if they just acknowledge their wrong doings.
Two things that dislike me on Japan: blaming others to try to justify their actions and playing the victim when they inflicted much more severe damages to their victims.
#31
Ooops. I think I better change “most of the imperial soldiers in Okinawa were from Okinawa” into “There were lots of”.
There were many civil defense corps like groups formed by local veterans who lead the civilian evacuation, I believe. But still, I correct my mistake.
“And perhaps if the Japanese Army had made Naha an “open city” as MacArthur did to Manila in 1941, Naha would not have been devastated.”
Perhaps. But that’s way beyond my argument.
On POW:
#31, #32 seem correct. My apology.
On cannibalism:
I’m aware of the Australian claim. I have a flawed memory but wasn’t William Webb brought that in Tokyo tribunal?
I know this gives you the impression of argument for argument sake, but until Australian Government made interrogation on war criminal suspects after Japanese surrender, those sightings remain as merely circumstantial evidence but not legal proof of Japanese cannibalism. But then again, the allied leadership already knew full well of Japanese eating human flesh for that is the logical conclusion of Allied tactics in New Guinea, cutting off the Japanese supply line and let the twenty thousand Japanese starve to death.
(I’d imagine Japanese were more than just pissed off. I can’t blame some of them munching the only source of protein that was available and abundant.)
“Two things that dislike me on Japan: blaming others to try to justify their actions and playing the victim when they inflicted much more severe damages to their victims.”
No question about that. But hey, when did “Japan” ever “blamed” others to justify its actions or “played victims”.
“Things would easier for Japan if they just acknowledge their wrong doings.”
Life is a little more difficult in this part of the world. The harder part is how to make others acknowledge that we acknowledged.
“Allied soldiers reported summarily executing Japanese soldiers. This kind of thing happened, although not as a matter of policy.”
Not to mention the Allied soldiers who ‘tweaked’ their flame-throwers so that the enemy soldiers died a slow and painful death or the ones who strapped captured enemy soldiers to their tanks as they headed for battle. Yup, war was not written by a Hollywood propagandist.
#34
Bad argument/joke. Sounds like an apologist. Although I agree that dehumanizing the enemy on both sides was going on.
Anyways, WWII is what? 60 some years ago. Those who want to base their hate on this just go on, while others move forward…
A theme of another thread, but Japan-hate comes into forms like comment #33, too. Sounds righteous in face of comments like #34, but in reality, completely misinformed and ignorant. And probably not receptive of reality, too.
#36
“Bad argument/joke. Sounds like an apologist. Although I agree that dehumanizing the enemy on both sides was going on. ”
Well, there are no such good argument in ugly part of history such as cannibalism. And that wasn’t an apology.
If I were in New Guinea in 1943, I probably would have eaten some human flesh in order to come home alive to the family. And I would probably would have chosen to eat a bit piece from the corpse of my enemy instead of one of my war buddy’s.
Let’s face it. Japan and Allied forces may have fought the same war, but under complete different concept and circumstances. I don’t think we have to agree everything on anything.
I think you’re misunderstanding the meaning of “apologists”. Apologists don’t “apologize”.
I agree that Japan-bashing based on WWII is lame, and if Koreans push this issue too far, there’s sure to be backlash from genuine Allied nations. But justifying cannibalism is purely bad taste.
“Things would easier for Japan if they just acknowledge their wrong doings.”
While we’re at it, let’s ask the Mongolian government to apologize for Genghis and Kublai. How about Italians for the Roman Empire? How about France and Napoleon?
If someone asked me to apologize for what my ancestors did, I’d laugh in their face. If they pushed the matter and started acting like a lunatic, I’d prolly punch him/her in the face and laugh once more.
Why do we keep playing this broken record? It’s embarassing to hang onto some shit that happened 60 years ago. Have some goddam pride. I cringe whenever this japan BS pops up.
Yea, yea I hear the argument that we have to learn history so as to not repeat it. Ummm…yea, that sure works all the time.
When’s the last time someone opened up a history book and said,”You know what? Fuck this. I’m not gonna attack Country X because I dont wanna repeat history.” Give me a fucking break.
Sorry to continue this unhealthy discussion Squatch.
But one last time before I go to bed.
I don’t justify abusing of POW or mass killing of civilian population. But considering the circumstances, I do think cannibalism by ordinary soldier whose genuine hope was just to stay alive is a lesser crime compare to above mentioned.
I am simply shocked to find out Tojo didn’t want to surrender. How could that be? Lies I tell you. Lies.
“Why do we keep playing this broken record? It’s embarassing to hang onto some shit that happened 60 years ago. Have some goddam pride. I cringe whenever this japan BS pops up.”
Unlike Mongol and Roman invasions, some of the victims of World War II are still alive. And lots of their kids and grandkids are still alive. And they get pissed off when politicians in Japan in modern times call them whores or make excuses for what happened to them.
I wish the issue would go away, but there are two sides making it not go away.
The weird thing is it seems that Koreans and Chinese are far more interested in Japan during the WWII than the Japanese I’ve met in my life. Granted, everyone I’ve known has pretty much been under 30, but the last thing a group of young Japanese would do is talk about Tojo or factional Japanese politics in 1945. Dasai ne!
They wonder why the rest of Asia can’t let go of the 1st half of the 20th Century. And don’t tell me it’s because of the atrocities. If it were about that, South Koreans would be far more concerned about the approximately 2 million Koreans killed/starved in North Korea over the past 15 years and up until this very day. A number far greater than the Japanese ever killed 60-some years ago. Same with the Chinese and the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. Funny how in Asia, killing and repressing is only bad if foreigners do it.
It’s not just Koreans who want to keep harping on this issue… I’m sure during the 60′s and 70′s a lot of US servicemen were probably sympathetic towards ROK whenever they started to wag fingers at Japan. Lots of US service members during WWII developed less than favorable opinions of the Japanese, and they would rise in the ranks to be high ranked officers later. Then you figure back in the 60′s and 70′s, Korean military people would go on and on about how America is the “big brother” and ROK is the “little brother” in the fight against international communism and how America is #1, they probably would have more favorable opinion about ROK unlike today. But those people are still alive…
“And they get pissed off when politicians in Japan in modern times call them whores or make excuses for what happened to them”
Then why not ask for an apology from those m’fers. Dont ask the country as a whole or the prime minister of Japan to apologize on behalf of those few.
And what’s an apology gonna do anyway? Sure as hell not gonna make the complainers from stop complaining until all the citizens of Japan get down on their knees and beg for forgiveness while having to pay trillions in reparations.
“And lots of their kids and grandkids are still alive”
So it goes on forever…hatred passes on to several generations. I hear some Yugoslavs started started killing each other that way. I’m sure that was justified.
squatch,
One point not really being addressed here is that it would cost the Japanese so little to put this behind East Asia once and for all.
It is a bit disturbing to me why there is so little willingness on the part of the LDP and the powers that be to consider something that requires little in the way of resources, but a little more politcal backbone.
However, the party line is that Japan’s conduct during the Showa era was just “another war” and “we didn’t act any differently than anyone else in a war” is more damaging than benifitual to Japan and the region in general.
#45:
“So it goes on forever…hatred passes on to several generations.”
squatch that doesn’t mean it goes on forever. People feel a stronger anger about what has happened to people they know. Calling my grandma who helped raise me a whore is different from doing the same about my great great great great grandma.
AND the hate comes back because politicians in modern times are calling them whores or making excuses. If you take that out of the equation then things can die down. Look at the young people in South Korea today who don’t see North Korea as a threat thanks to leftist teachers’ treatment of North Korea. If North Korea started making noise that they started the war but that the South Koreans deserved it or brought it on themselves, that would all change.
#44:
“Then why not ask for an apology from those m’fers. Dont ask the country as a whole or the prime minister of Japan to apologize on behalf of those few.”
They’re in the government so they represent Japan to some degree. And the visits to Yasukuni Shrine by the prime minister are part of this problem.
I’m just saying it’s not a one-way street.
Maybe the interesting angle on this story is the extent to which the atomic bombings changed or did not change attitudes in Japan in terms of continuing the war.
Were the atomic bombings the bare minimum that was required to push the Emperor into deciding to end the war? Clearly there were diehards like Tojo who would literally have fought to the death but there were others who were more pragmatic and had other issues weighing on their mind such as the entrance of the USSR into the war.
If the bombs had killed significantly less than 200,000 would the diehards have been able to hold sway? What if just the Hiroshima bomb had been dropped?
Then there is the messy business of the Allied insistence on unconditional surrender. Perhaps if the Americans had been more explicit about allowing the Emperor to remain they could have kept the Russians out of the war (and out of North Korea).
Great point eujin!
Churchill was literally horrified of America’s insistance on “unconditional surrender” which is extremely rare in history.
And you are right. Had the U.S. been more clear that there was still some “wiggle room” in the term “Unconditional Surrender” then the war in the Pacific may have been shorter and less costly and could have prevented the Russians from carving out Manchuria (a base of operations for the Chinese Communists), North Korea and Sakalin Island.
America’s misunderstanding of diplomacy and of the Japanese themselves was costly… well, at least they knew the Japanese enough to not fire bomb Kyoto. However, that almost didn’t happen either. I think it was one random Air Corp guy who knew a professor of Japanese history that first raised the objection…
#46
I agree that visiting the Yasukuni is a bad move. Or that lame politicians making distasteful comments about WWII or colonialism should shut up. It would be a lot better if they did.
But then, when Japan was careful, as it has been recently, relations with China did actually get better. I don’t expect that from happening with Korea-Japan relations now. It’s kind of apologetic to point fingers solely at Japan for the sour relations between the two.
Plus, I don’t agree with the notion that Japan has done next to nothing in respect to apologies and reparations. Or that it received a windfall because of the cold war. This is the typical misinformation I hear from haters.
@46, well said. What gets to me is that Japanese government is splitting hairs in terms of apologizing for its war crimes. That could maybe construct an interesting legal argument, but it’s no way to run a diplomacy. Unconditional, wholesale apology would cost Japan so little and benefit it a whole lot, but somehow they can’t bring themselves up to do it. I don’t understand that.
Speaking on Japanese war crimes, Asahi Shimbun ran a story how there was a killing training in the Imperial Japanese Army during WWII. They would tie up Chinese prisoners to a pole and ordered soldiers to take turns charging and stabbing the prisoners with a bayonet. I would link the story, but the board doesn’t let me.
# 51,
Use hyperlinks.
#49
Interesting that you agree with that. Last time someone brought that theory up, he was bashed multiple times by American (I assume) posters. Maybe it was at another forum.
Lots of “maybes” in the war. Maybe if the Americans had better intel on the strength and capability of the Japanese military, which they certainly underestimated, they might have been more forgiving in the peace talks before Japan decided to fight. Japan did had intel on American power and navy admirals were opposed to the war with the U.S., but was brushed off as cowardly- such are fanatical regimes.
That was supposedly Edwin Reischauer, although he refuted any role in that, placing credit (or blame) on Henry Stimson.
Cool. Here is the Asahi Shimbun article I was talking about.
Link
@ 55,
Ouch… that’s some crazy shit.
Yeah, horrifying. But I can already see the Japanese government’s stance to it, such as:
“This was an isolated incident and in no way reflects the official Japanese military policy at that time. There is no record indicating that it was. We apologize for the harm that this unfortunate incident caused to both Japan and China, but the current Japanese government cannot assume any legal responsibility, as any legal responsibility was absolved by the San Francisco Treaty.”
Yeah, I don’t get it.
Somehow I don’t think the Koreans will ever stop demonizing Japan. Maybe if Korea’s per capita PPP exceeds Japan’s. Or if Japan is nuked to oblivion.
Aceface, there were reports of some Japanese soldiers, who still had rice and tinned food, eating Australian casualties – some dead and some wounded – on Papua. Some soldiers may have resorted to cannibalism in out of necessity, but others apparently made a choice to eat enemy soldiers.
In case you were wondering, I happen to think Japan is a great place. I always draw a clear distinction between the attrocities committed by the Imperial Army in the 1930s and 1940s and Japan of 2008. I think they are totally unrelated.
user-81 @47,
Are you saying that your grandmother was a comfort woman???
#60, no.
???
#63
Hey,no hard feelings on my side.There has been lots of publishing on the campaign in New Guinea and cannivalism related and most of them were “I ate flesh of the other guy in my platoon” type.There was a huge hit documentary called “Emperor’s naked army marches on” back in the 80′s(Which happenes to be Michael Moore’s most favourite documentary,BTW)and there was a shocking confession by former officer that he and his fellow officer had sacrificed some of his men for cannivalism.As I understand all these acts were commited in extreme condition.(Only 10 % out of twenty thousand got out of New Guinea alive)So I can’t confirme your information from my relatively small reading on the issue.
#59
Bayonetting Chinese caught for the guerrila acitivity was a usual practice of Japanese miltary.I think no one denies that in Japan.
“What gets to me is that Japanese government is splitting hairs in terms of apologizing for its war crimes. That could maybe construct an interesting legal argument, but it’s no way to run a diplomacy. Unconditional, wholesale apology would cost Japan so little and benefit it a whole lot, but somehow they can’t bring themselves up to do it. I don’t understand that.”
I think the Japanese government did more than several times to South Korea only in the 90′s.Keizo Obuchi even signed in the joint communique since Kim Dae Jung had insisted.So far every single Korean President since Kim Young Sam to Lee Myung bak had clearly stated at least once to Japanese counterpart that there will be no more formal request on apology and the history issue is now over between two countries.Which of course they change their minds when they feel they need to.
I don’t think this issue won’t end until the Korean side acknowledge that Japan had apologized.
Didn’t everyone had this conversation a million times?
Some asshole officials in Japan makes asshole-worthy statement –> Korean media/politicians blow it up out of proportion–> pissed-off Koreans demand apology –> apology given.
Wash, rinse, and repeat.
Apparently, Aceface has the amazing ability to clap with only one hand.
Yeah,but as long as you have “I don’t understand.Japan doesn’t acknowledge
it’s criminal past and so unwilling to apoligize”crowd,I feel no need to use my other hands.
Aceface:
Don’t you have a spell-check feature in your browser? Cannibalism is spelled with a “b”.
Learning new things everyday!
#68
“Some asshole officials in Japan makes asshole-worthy statement –> Korean media/politicians blow it up out of proportion–> pissed-off Koreans demand apology –> apology given.”
I find this only in Korean news, that fake things up.
Korean news media start ranting for somrthing that Japanese politician did not say. -> Korean politicians demand apology, which is totally ignored in Japan. -> Korean news media reports Japan’s apoligy which Japan did not make.
From Hello Kitty with love:
DOCUMENTARY FROM A JAPANESE DIRECTOR INTERVIEWING JAPANESE SOLDIERS WHO CONFESS TO ATROCITIES:
Interview with Director Matsui Minoru and Producer Oguri Ken’ichi of Japanese Devils: Confessions of Imperial Army Soldiers from Japan’s War Against China
http://www.asiasource.org/news/special_reports/japanesedevils.cfm
Riben guizi (2001)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0286923/
Japanese Devils
http://distribution.asianamericanmedia.org/browse/film/?i=113
YouTube of Japanese Devils/Riben Guizi (Divided into 17 short film sections):
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=Nightwisher87
Yasuji Kaneko, 87, still remembers the screams of the countless women he raped in China as a soldier in the Japanese imperial army in World War II. Some were teenagers from Korea serving as sex slaves in military-run brothels. Others were women in villages he and his comrades pillaged in eastern China.
“They cried out, but it didn’t matter to us whether the women lived or died,” Kaneko said in an interview with The Associated Press at his Tokyo home. “We were the Emperor’s soldiers. Whether in military brothels or in the villages, we raped without reluctance.”
(from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/01/AR2007030100578.html )
“Women were the main victims, indeed…. We would pick some sunny place, like around a storehouse for example, then make a screen by hanging up branches with leaves,” answered Private Tadokoro Kozo of the 114th Division when interviewed by the Pacific War Research Group in 1971. “We would get a ticket called Sekken [Red Ticket], which had the company commander’s stamp on, to wait for our turn with our loincloth off.
“One day I was assigned a leader to kidnap women. When we showed up, all the women frantically ran off. It was hard to chase and catch them because we couldn’t kill them yet.
“There wasn’t any soldier who didn’t rape. After things were done, usually we killed them. We’d let the women go, they’d run off, and we’d shoot them from the back. We didn’t want to leave any trouble behind. If the gendarmes found out, we would be tried by court-martial. So, although we didn’t really want to kill them, we did it – though, in fact, there was hardly any gendarme in Nanjing. I served in Nanjing for about two months.”
(from http://www.nankingatrocities.net/Confession/confession_03.htm )
Women alleged to police that Wada and his cohorts would orchestrate boozing games, then cull the most inebriated girls and quietly whisk them away to karaoke rooms, bathrooms or stairwells to be gang-raped.
When 28-year-old Wada and five other organizers were arrested on rape charges in late June, public outrage underlined how attitudes about sex crimes are changing in a society where victims traditionally suffered in silence.
But the affair also shows how much hasn’t changed. It has triggered a boys-will-be-boys backlash that activists say only spotlights how ingrained sexist sentiment remains.
“To some men, rape is still a fantasy, rather than a crime,” said Tamie Kaino, a professor at Tokyo’s Ochanomizu University and an expert on campus sex crimes.
Sex crimes in Japan have surged in recent years, with rape cases jumping 40 percent to 2,228 in 2001, from around 1,600 four years earlier, according to the National Police Agency. Offenses such as groping and obscenity tripled to 9,326 cases in 2001 from a decade ago.
The increase is due at least in part to a greater inclination by women to report attacks to police. Since the Super Free scandal broke, more of its alleged victims have come forward.
But most assaulted women in Japan still stay silent, said Shoichi Kodama, a National Police Agency investigator. Often, they are accused of having invited trouble, especially in the summer when women wear light clothes. And rapists sometimes photograph the assault, threatening to release the prints if the victims seek help.
Media reports also have a blame-the-victim flavor. Many of the women attending the Super Free parties were depicted as rural bumpkins of about 20 or a bit younger looking for city boys at brand-name universities. Some commentators said they were simply out of their league and lost control during the drinking games.
During a Parliament debate, lawmaker Seiichi Ota, a 57-year-old former Cabinet minister, got a laugh when he quipped: “At least gang rapists are still vigorous. Isn’t that at least a little closer to normal?”
A few days later, a weekly magazine said Yasuo Fukuda, the Cabinet’s chief spokesman, told reporters at an off-the-record briefing that women were partly to blame in the case of gang rape.
“The problem is that there are lots of women dressed provocatively,” he was quoted as saying. Fukuda, who is also the minister of gender equality, said his comment was taken out of context. “I meant something completely different,” he said, but didn’t elaborate.
Yoko Yoshida, a staff member at the Tokyo Rape Crisis Center, said the wink-and-nudge attitude is grounded in a popular culture that often depicts rape as an act of passion, not violence, and that women who resist don’t really mean it.
Myths are perpetuated by an underground pop culture in which rape is a common genre.
Rape-themed videos account for about a fifth of the porno offerings at chain rental stores, with titles like “Idol Rape Crime File” ranking among the top five in weekly X-rated sales. Popular comic books and video games often depict rape fantasies where teenage girls, nurses and housewives willingly submit to rapes and other sex assaults from relatives, neighbors or even police. A 17-year-old high school student arrested in June for allegedly raping 31 women reportedly told police he was trying to re-enact scenes he saw in porno books and magazines.
(from http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/02/world/main571280.shtml )
Just in case you’re still surfing the Internet looking for more of those, NES, please don’t bother. I think that will do.
Cannivalism [sic]:
http://www.users.bigpond.com/battleforaustralia/JapWarCrimes/TenWarCrimes/Murder_Cannibalism_Kokoda.html
And its modern outlet/fetish equivalent:
http://www.weirdasianews.com/2006/11/08/japanese-banquet-of-cannibalism/
Naw. This is stuff I already had saved somewhere else. Are you sure it’s not enough?
The FBI is on its way. Please do not scrub your computer, it has been registered as evidence.
Nice job,NES.
Taking advantage on Japanese facing it’s ugly past and mix it with current day sexual violence in the society and present it as “evidence” of evil in Japanese.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again.
It takes more than just apology from former oppressor for reconcilliation.
The other side needs to work on this too.
…and the koreans were not the “pure” victim…
A notable amount was on the “butcher’s” side.
Far more complicated, NES. But I can understand your motivation and what you want to whitewash about your own history…
I’m American (ethnically English/Welsh/Danish). We don’t whitewash our history. Does the US government or US schools whitewash what we did to the Native Americans? Do we whitewash the total disgrace of FDR’s Japanese internment camps or that it was our racism that let Japan not be held fully accountable for what we didn’t let the Germans get away with? Americans are a very self-critical people.
Have your government do half as much as the Germans (since they probably went too far into self-loathing), and you’ll probably be forgiven. The Germans, among other things, allow Israel to approve its textbooks about the Holocaust. Japan letting the Koreans and Chinese do the same would go a long way towards reconciliation. Also try removing the names of the 1,000+ convicted war criminals from the Yasukuni Shrine, and maybe people might believe you. The West couldn’t even fathom if the Germans had a monument that honored the names of convicted Nazi war criminals among the other war dead. Also have your government sincerely recognize everything it did without whitewashing or retracting later. And quit running over to “Korean” web sites to unleash a bunch of Japanese apologetics every time your history gets brought up (This is what shows everyone how really “sorry” you guys are). Try that. Then get back to me.
Sorry NES
It was my fault, I took your post too seriously. I didn’t knew that you are the kind of posters who posts irresponsibly any posts which could generate a flame war.
I should recognize this earlier.
NES, isn’t self professed war criminal Kaneko Yasuji the one that also said he had to hide his crimes from the military police because if he got busted he would be exectuted? Maybe it was another guy, but I am pretty sure he is the one.
Ah, nah, he was the guy that said he was killing people during the Nanking Massacre (1937) but had not joined the Japanese army until 1940.
“And quit running over to “Korean” web sites to unleash a bunch of Japanese apologetics every time your history gets brought up (This is what shows everyone how really “sorry” you guys are). Try that. Then get back to me.”
Like how? Most of the “Japanese apologetics” on “Korean”web sites are probably American/Canadian/Australian with no traceable Japanese ethnic background.I bet most of them are ethnically English/Welsh/Danish just like you are,NES.
Somehow I also think that Japanese are very selfcritical people too.And you had proved that in a way by showing a lenghty post and links of Japanese wrong doings uncovered by themselves.
“Japan letting the Koreans and Chinese do the same would go a long way towards reconciliation.”
Check.
Bilateral historical study groups formed by Japan-China,Japan-Korea government has been underway.
Japan-Korea Joint History Study Group website.
http://www.jkcf.or.jp/korean/
“Also try removing the names of the 1,000+ convicted war criminals from the Yasukuni Shrine, and maybe people might believe you.”
Check.
This week’s issue of Weekly Bunshun has lengthy interview on Koga Makoto,the president of Japanese Association of the Family of War Deceased
and LDP bigshot mentioning exactly the same thing.
“The West couldn’t even fathom if the Germans had a monument that honored the names of convicted Nazi war criminals among the other war dead.”
Maybe you never heard about Bitburg Cemetary.Anyway,Yasukuni doesn’t have any monument specially honoring convicted Japanese war criminal.
“Also have your government sincerely recognize everything it did without whitewashing or retracting later. ”
There are certain claims that we don’t agree 100%.And you can’t recognize something you actually didn’t do.
Good morning, another beautiful day here in the Pacific Coast…
Finished with squabbling over things that nobody here was ever involved in?
Well said in #81, NES!!!!!
It’s still the same day here in East Asia,Squatch.
Well, Aceface does look like an apologist, and the more he tries to explain, the more he looks that way…
but then, what’s the point of posting so many horror stories other than enticing ethnic hatred?
OK,so trying to put some fact straight through discussion is an act of “apologist” in your book,Squatch?
I’m not exactly a generous fellow.But I try to be open to criticism.I know you are decent guy,Squatch,but you gotta come out with more than pointing bad spelling.
“They’re in the government so they represent Japan to some degree. And the visits to Yasukuni Shrine by the prime minister are part of this problem.”
If we condemn visits to the Yasukuni Shrine, which btw houses the remains of OTHER JAPANESE WAR VETERANS, then the U.S. President shouldnt visit the Vietnam War Memorial out of respect to the Vietnamese civilians. What about those in power in Iraq now? We say they’re not Baathists but who are we kidding? We could execute half of dem m’fers for war crimes.
Oh yeah… the Shrine houses war dead from, I believe the Boshin War on up. However, U.S. elected officials wouldn’t visit the shrine for another reason… separation of church and state. Yasukuni apparently houses the deified kami spirits of men who died fighting for the emperor. It’s not simply a memorial like the ones we have for the Vietnam, Korea or WWII wars.
Plus, U.S. memorials are true memorials. They do not keep spoils of war or some of those weapons of war (i.e. swords).
Wangkong is half correct.
There’s a long and complicate argument on religion and politics on Yasukuni.That’s why some politicians make excuses that the visit is “private and personal” and “not formal nor official” which I think is ridiculous.
Yasukuni also houses the spirits of men who died fighting against the emperor in Satsuma rebellion of 1877 and Gettysburg in the U.S also has both memorial and museum that keep spoils of war and weaponry.
The fact that Yasukuni considers the names housed there as deified kami spirits is another reason why so many of the Korean families are upset. Theses families have indicated that their grandfathers were Christians and would have never wanted to be considered as Shinto gods.
Aceface, the difference between Yasukuni and Gettysberg is that Gettysberg memorial is one to a civil war, where the Confederate States of America was never recognized as a seperate country by the U.S. or any other major power. However, the Chinese and Korean spoils in Yasukuni were of nations that were considered seperate nations by the major powers at the time.
I don’t think most Chinese and Koreans object to Japan having a memorial to remember and honor their war dead. The would like it, however, to be more secular and not have war criminals in its register. If the Japanese set-up their own Vietnam War memorial-like center honoring their dead from the Showa era (minus war criminals) I don’t think anyone would object.
Again… it would take SO LITTLE to satisfy Chinese and Korean sensibilities. I don’t know why the Japanese don’t seriously consider it.
Besides… didn’t the emperor renounce all his claims to divinity anyways as one of the conditions of the allied victory over Japan? Offical state visits by elected officals to Yasukuni would appear to contradict that believe by the Japanese political rank and file.
“Aceface, the difference between Yasukuni and Gettysberg is that Gettysberg memorial is one to a civil war, where the Confederate States of America was never recognized as a seperate country by the U.S. or any other major power. However, the Chinese and Korean spoils in Yasukuni were of nations that were considered seperate nations by the major powers at the time.”
Ah.This reminds me that my frequent posting originally started by simply pointing that you mentioning allied soldiers never raze axis cities isn’t accurate.
I just answered “U.S. memorials are true memorials. They do not keep spoils of war or some of those weapons of war (i.e. swords)”.You are extending the argument way beyond me.
And also,not intending to add more fuels to the fire,but you do know that Taiwan and Korea were considered as Japanese colony by the major powers at the time,Right?
“Besides… didn’t the emperor renounce all his claims to divinity anyways as one of the conditions of the allied victory over Japan?”
The Emperor is no longer the so-called devine representative of kami,but still the grand cleric of Shinto.However Showa Emperor stopped visiting Yasukuni after class A war criminals being enshrined in 1975.Current Emperor,Akihito has never been there.
“Offical state visits by elected officals to Yasukuni would appear to contradict that believe by the Japanese political rank and file.”
This has become an issue also in 1975,when PM Miki Takeo.who was known as liberal visited there for the first time in August 15th with logic of going there as “personal visit”.Before that,politicians and emperor were visiting in Autumn during Shinto ritual festival.No controversy on visiting by neither domestic nor external in those days.
Makasone Yasuhiro who was PM in the 80′s had visited there for about ten times,but it suddenly become problem since Asahi shimbun had written an article that Nakasone had donated some money(about 5 US dollars)from tax as prime minister and that become an issue.
This Asahi article was transcribed on China’s People’s Daily and it seemed this was used against Hu Yaobang,at the time China’s premire,who was very close to Nakasone.Hu’s reformist policy was challenged by the pld guard of CCP and Nakasone was informed by sources in Beijing that Hu is losing in power struggle partially because of Yasukuni visit,which was strange because there were no comment from Beijing on Yasukuni visit in the past,inclufing Nakasone’s nine visits.
Anyway,that is the reason why Yasukuni visit had become a taboo in J-political world until Koisumi became PM in 2001.
#81 NES, your comment just shows your ignorance and prejudice.
“I’m American (ethnically English/Welsh/Danish). We don’t whitewash our history.”
Oh, really? What did US Government do to Kingdom of Hawaii in 19th century, and is the truth taught in schools in the US? How about so-called Independence of Panama in 1903? What were the role and the aim of the US, and is the truth taught in schools in the US?
The US Government whitewashes history all the time. If you cannot believe this fact, you are brainwashed.
“The Germans, among other things, allow Israel to approve its textbooks about the Holocaust. Japan letting the Koreans and Chinese do the same would go a long way towards reconciliation.”
Do you think such approval be a standard to be followed by every nation in the world? Then why do not you ask Vietnam to approve textbooks used in schools in the US about the Vietnam War? Or North Korea to approve US textbooks about Korean War? Or Nicaragua to approve US textbooks about Contras? US have a lot to ask for approval.
“Also try removing the names of the 1,000+ convicted war criminals from the Yasukuni Shrine, and maybe people might believe you.”
Yasukuni Shrine is a private religious entity. Do you understand that? Since it is a private religious entity, no one can force it.
“Also have your government sincerely recognize everything it did without whitewashing or retracting later.”
Japanese Government does a good job recognizing what it did in the past. “Whitewashing” exists only in your prejudice against Japan.
#94 WangKon936, I really do not understand your argument about “difference between Yasukuni and Gettysberg”.
First of all, Korea and Taiwan were part of Japan before WW2. All the countries in the League of Nations as well as the US approved that. A lot of Koreans and Taiwanese volunteered or were drafted as soldiers and were killed in the battlefield. Yasukuni Shrine as a private religious entity commemorates such soldiers. Do you say it should not commemorate Korean and Taiwanese soldiers who fought for Japan just because their origin is not Japan?
“I don’t think most Chinese and Koreans object to Japan having a memorial to remember and honor their war dead.”
WangKon936, do you think Yasukuni Shrine is there to “honor” the war dead?
It is there to “console” the soul of war dead.
This is what Yasukuni Shrine says in its homepage.
国家のために尊い命を捧げられた人々の御霊を慰め、その事績を永く後世に伝えることを目的に創立された神社です。
“This shrine is founded to console the souls of people who dedicated their lives to the nation and to remember their acts for long time.”
You may not be able to see any difference between honoring and consoling, but in their religious view, honoring and consoling are two different things. So, your argument is quite off the mark.
“it would take SO LITTLE to satisfy Chinese and Korean sensibilities.”
How can you say so? Does anybody here knowledgeable on Korea agree with WangKon936?
#84
Kaneko is a super warrior who could travel time and distance at a blink of an eye.
Those Japanese vets from Chinese re-education camps got to be the most brutal killing machines of all time. They even perfected the Chinese policy of “Three Alls”.
#95
Just to add, after the enshrinement of Class A criminals and PM’s visited the shrine at least 20 times before the said Asahi article. Not once during that time did China nor Korea complain those visits.
it would take SO LITTLE to satisfy Chinese and Korean sensibilities
Chinese, I agree. Korean, I have serious doubts.
As for the war time horror stories, I’m not sure the Chinese will agree the Gaoli Bangzi are victims.
WangKon936,
Do you really think it would take “so little” to satisfy Koreans? Once a decision is somehow made not to allow the Japanese PM to visit Yasukuni (not sure how that can be done in a free country but anyway), Koreans will start to notice that other politicians visit the shrine. Then they will notice common Japanese people visit the shrine. No, Koreans will never be satisfied short of demolishing the shrine, then they will just move on to another issue. This isn’t about Yasukuni, this is about hating the Japanese.
Also do not forget that Korean and Japanese history is not going to ever be reconciled for the simple fact that Korean textbooks contain numerous falsehoods, great big whopper lies, that Koreans are expecting apologies for. Like the idea that Japan stole rice from Korea and left people starving during the Japanese administration of Korea.
As for Koreans ensrhined in Yasukuni, it is only their “spirits” (which I do not believe exist but anyway) not bodies there, so in this instance if families are objecting it is similar to the post death conversions the mormons do that some people have objected to. However, the Koreans that are in Yasukuni were overwhelmingly volunteers, and no doubt knew what they were fighting for. Koreans think that those soldiers were drafted, but like most things Koreans believe about history, it ain’t true.
Looks like the Japanese PM expressed remorse for WWII today… I guess that settles it then.
Abe-san’s place in history for rapprochement with China and South Korea was dealt a severe blow by his visit to Yasukuni Shine today. It merely showed that, once again, Japanese politicians can not be trusted regarding closure on WWII, i.e., Abe declines to go to Yasukuni as Prime Minister, but runs there immediately once out of office, showing his true colors. And let’s not forget what this is all about; the enshrinement of Class A war criminals at Yasukuni Shrine, namely Tojo Hideki. And yes, Tojo’s 63 year old diary suddenly is released to the public this week, written by the old Kempeitai Master himself, stating that Japan’s citizenry and politicians were weak in the face of “new bombs” dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and that Japan should not surrender. This shows that Tojo’s fanatical sense of purpose never wavered, despite the destruction of his nation, much like Hitler in this bunker, facing impossible odds. Abe and Koizumi payed homage to this man at Yasukuni today..for what??? Remove Tojo and his band of A Class war criminals from Yasukuni, and then who would care if even the King of Japan paid homage to Japan’s war dead?
Wow.
#82 Tomojiro
In other words, your accusation against me was wrong and you have no serious argument to make, so you dismiss me out of hand and accuse me of starting a flame war. I guess it should be me who is sorry for addressing someone not intelligent enough to hold a conversation.
The flame war had already started, and I jumped in at the middle of it to provide documented facts, not mere baseless accusations.
I guess you don’t consider such comments from Matt as being inflammatory:
#64 shakuhachi
So Matt, who frequently whines that I go too far with my postings, are you saying that your grandfather was a serial gang rapist???
#96 J
US textbooks do teach about what really occurred in Hawaii and Panama and go into greater depth at the college level (I was in Hawaii last April, and the government-run museums and parks also go into that history). I would say some US historians go too far in demonizing our past. So, keep making baseless accusations so the rest of the Americans on this site who received the same education can see the foolishness of your comments.
The emperor, as the supreme Shinto cleric, can probably have the names of the war criminals removed if he really wanted to do it (While only a figurehead, he is still part of the Japanese government).
#100 shakuhachi
It doesn’t matter who visits the shrine if the 1,068 names of war criminals are removed.
In the case of the Mormons, they removed the names of the dead from their records after relatives complained, and then the Mormons made rules that only relatives of the deceased can submit names in the future for temple work.
Also, to say that the Koreans would complain anyway and continue with unfounded historical claims is not a good excuse for the Japanese to not do the right thing. Both sides have engaged in history revisionism. Perhaps the Japanese being honest about their history would force the Koreans and Chinese to eventually do the same. The Israelis humiliated the Germans internationally at any chance they could get after WWII. It took 5-10 years of the Germans taking it and still making an effort before reconciliation began. If the Japanese make a full and honest effort at it and the Koreans and Chinese still reject such efforts, then the Koreans and Chinese will look bad to the rest of the world (including me).
NES #104, who can be so stupid as to believe in what the government-run museums show? Tell me what the US textbooks teaches about Hawaii and Panama. Are you sure it is the truth?
“The emperor, as the supreme Shinto cleric, can probably have the names of the war criminals removed if he really wanted to do it.”
Shinto worships the seat of Emperor, but the Emperor himself or what he thinks is irrelevant to them. So, if the Emperor says something, the Shinto clerics will just ignore his wishes and say, “Your Majesty, you are not supposed to express your opinion.” Again, no one can force it.
Yasukuni is a private religious entity and is not funded by or receives subsidies from Japanese government. Its operation is run by donation from WW2 veterans and their surviving families, who are quite old by now. If you wait another 20 years, those people will just pass away and the shrine will cease operating due to lack of donation. At that time, no politicians will care about the shrine because they do not have to care about the votes of WW2 veterans. If you do not like Yasukuni, all you have to do is to wait till it collapses.
” Both sides have engaged in history revisionism.”
History revisionism in Japan is far more smaller in scale compared to the Koreans,let alone the Chinese.
Japanese textbooks do teach about what really occurred in Korea and China and go into greater depth at the college level. I would say some US historians go too far in demonizing our past. So, keep making baseless accusations so the rest of the Japanese on this site who received the same education can see the foolishness of your comments.
“Perhaps the Japanese being honest about their history would force the Koreans and Chinese to eventually do the same”
Not exactly,as you showed us in #73.
It just give them more confidence in Japanese being a brutal race and adds more hostility.
“I would say some US historians go too far in demonizing our past. ”
Ooops.
It’s Japanese historians.Ofcourse.
#105 J
I was saying US textbooks and Government museums discuss the negative things the US has done. I thought this was your position. Are you now calling me stupid for believing that? Fine. The museums are wrong: the US never did anything bad in Hawaii. Happy? Now how will you rationalize bombing Pearl Harbor?
Why don’t you tell me what US textbooks and government museums are whitewashing what we did to Native Americans, Hawaii, and Panama. Provide links, please (and nothing from the deep South KKK home schooling program developed by David Duke – show me some widely used textbooks). We don’t have museums like the Hiroshima Sob Story Museum of Japan, which paints Japan as the innocent victim instead of the aggressor of WWII in the Pacific.
I thought the emperor is the head Shinto cleric. Does he ignore himself? Even if you are right, it is a lame excuse (probably one that the emperor himself made up and promotes). If all government officials refused to go to the shrine until the names of the 1,068 convicted war criminals were removed and if the Japanese held massive protests in front of the shrine, how long do you think it would take for the clerics to remove the offending names? Even so, the Shinto clerics reveal the heart of the majority of the Japanese people. They can take the names out, but they choose not to.
#106 Aceface
This statement only reveals your delusion by Japanese history revisionism. The Koreans and Chinese will say the same about Japan and that they don’t really do it themselves. I can only agree that China is much more extreme than Korea (not to say Korea is light on revisionism), but Japan also has their extreme revisionists like Hata Ikuhiko.
Are you still in Kindergarten? I know my arguments are great, but please do better than copying, pasting, and changing a few words (and forgetting to change some of the words so you have to then correct yourself later).
The example in #73 is not from the government. The government has to recognize it and teach it widely in textbooks. How many people in Japan are familiar with that documentary? Even if familiar, it will be dismissed by many if the government doesn’t own up and put it in the standard textbooks. You think it will justify the Koreans and Chinese in continuing to view the Japanese as being brutal, but this is not what happened between Germany and Israel. It is much easier to forgive someone who admits their faults and sincerely apologizes (You’ll say that Japan has, but whitewash followed by retraction while the same lies are taught out of textbooks aren’t the best forms of apology).
#108 NES
“Why don’t you tell me what US textbooks and government museums are whitewashing what we did to Native Americans, Hawaii, and Panama. Provide links, please.”
Same to you. You started the discussion by saying unfounded allegation that Japan whitewashes history.
“if the Japanese held massive protests in front of the shrine, how long do you think it would take for the clerics to remove the offending names?”
Japan is a free society, where nobody is supposed to dictate others what to believe or how to behave. If someone commemorates some dead people at a shrine, he is not violating anyone else’s rights. Rather such protesters are violating freedom of religion. NES think again. There are pro Yasukuni Japanese and anti Yasukuni Japanese, who have agreed to disagree. If you want to eliminate pro Yasukuni Japanese, you actually stand for totalitarianism.
#109 J
Pick any of the textbooks written by Hata Ikuhiko.
Your turn.
This is the definition of totalitarianism?! LOL! The right of the people to peacefully assemble, or demonstrate, is not totalitarianism. The government blocking such is totalitarianism. BTW, my favorite “totalitarian dictator” is Abraham Lincoln.
Anti-war criminal Japanese can peacefully demonstrate at a reasonable distance from the shrine, allowing those who choose to go to freely enter (the shrine is fine once the 1,068 offensive names are removed, so the shrine in and of itself should not be protested IMO). Doing such brings more awareness to the issue, thereby opening discourse and helping hearts to change. This is not anti-freedom or totalitarianism but the opposite of it. I am aware that there are some Japanese who do actually demonstrate against the offensive names in the shrine. The problem is that the majority of Japanese are either unaware or apathetic to the issue.
I wonder if you would think it anti-freedom of religion and totalitarianism if people demonstrated against some idiot in the US making a shrine that contained the names of war dead and also included the names of US servicemen who raped and murdered teenage girls on Okinawa. If I were like Hata, I suppose I would do his typical rationalization and say, “Well, Japanese soldiers raped a lot of Chinese, Korean, and Dutch teenage girls, so it’s a moot point.” Since I’m not like Hata, I would be outraged at anybody who casually dismissed such heinous crimes or included the names of such criminals in a memorial shrine.
#110 NES, “Pick any of the textbooks written by Hata Ikuhiko.”
That proves your allegation does not have any root.
Mr. Hata Ikuhiko has never written any school textbook.
You are accusing Japan for something that does not exist, except in your wild imagination. I whole-heartedly welcome any constructive criticism against Japan, but accusation solely based on prejudice is not acceptable.
#111 J
Professor (Dr.) Hata has written textbooks in addition to reports and journal articles.
Being mentally bankrupt, I guess all you had left to play was the race/prejudice card. Thank you for proving my point as to denial in Japan. Your explanation of free society and totalitarianism were equally amusing.
P.S. “Atarashii Rekishi Kyokasho” (新しい歴史教科書) is one particular example of a controversial Japanese textbook filled with whitewash and revisionism. Admittedly, I don’t know who the specific authors are or if Hata was one of them.
@#111
Hmm… first two sentences of the wikipedia article on this guy:
“Ikuhiko Hata (秦郁彦 Hata Ikuhiko: December 12, 1932 – ) is a Japanese historian. He published many textbooks and interpretive studies in both Japanese military and modern history. ”
Emphasis mine, of course.
Prof. Hata has never written any school textbook. If you insist otherwise, show us the name of the publisher.
Prof. Hata indeed has written a lot of reports and journals that are by no means school textbooks. Such studies done by Prof. Hata are well within the freedom of academia, in which the government has no business intervening.
#114 J
Yes, J. Japan is a free society, and we see that the free Japanese people choose war criminals in shrines and fascist professors in their universities. Did such things get that way on their own? It is expected that such things reflect the hearts and minds of the free people of Japan.
Now, how about you address “Atarashii Rekishi Kyokasho” (新しい歴史教科書) instead of Dr. Hata? I notice that you avoided that one entirely. Oh, and it’s your turn to name a widely used textbook in the US which whitewashes the histories of the US with Hawaii and Panama.
Which part of “Atarashii Rekishi Kyokasho” do you think is whitewashing?
http://www.tsukurukai.com/
Press “New History Textbook: Revised Edition” in the middle of the page.
NES
Yeah,those textbook which was only adopted by 1% as an official text book.
And most schools which adopted this textbook were for mentally ill children.
And before it was published the text book was wholly re-written following instruction from the Ministry of Education…
So, that the members of the society became so enraged against GoJ and the Ministry of Education, that they pay too much attention to the Korean and Chinese side.
Nonetheless some members decided to follow the instruction of Ministry of Education, and re-write the textbook. Because of that the society split away.
And that is your biggest evidence of systematic history whitewashing by the Japanese?
Bravo, NES (sarcasm)
#115 NES, one thing to add. If you recognize Japan as a free society, do not generalize based on what some Japanese do. As I said, there are pro Yasukuni Japanese as well as anti Yasukuni Japanese. Diversity of views is important. That is why there are so many different school textbooks in Japan.
#116 J
An easier question would have been, “Which part of “Atarashii Rekishi Kyokasho” do you think is NOT whitewashing?”
It whitewashes Japan’s dealings with neighboring countries and revises (or omits) the Nanjing Massacre, Manchukuo atrocities, “comfort women” issue, massacre of Chinese in Singapore, medical experiments by Unit 731, colonial oppression in Korea and Taiwan, Pearl Harbor attack…
There’s also this one on Commodore Matthew Perry:
http://wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/rekiken/english/appeals/appeal_0110/index.html
and the above link reported in the US by HNN with an editors note:
http://hnn.us/articles/146.html
I’m still waiting for examples of a widely used textbook in the US which whitewashes the histories of the US with Hawaii and Panama.
The outcry from the original “Atarashii Rekishi Kyokasho” was such that a less extreme revised edition was published in its place.
#117 tomojiro
The Ministry of Education approved the original version. The outcry was such that they flip-flopped on it and had a revised edition made. The revised edition was merely less egregious than the original.
So it’s the one that you studied from?
#118 J
So, tell me, you two, what are your thoughts on the forced sexual slavery of women in Japanese military brothels, the Nanjing Massacre, the atrocities in Manchukuo, and Unit 731 medical experiments? Try doing it without whitewashing or bringing up what other countries have done.
You can’t be serious.
#119 NES, do you think the visit by Commodore Matthew Perry was amicable? The visit resulted in the fall of Tokugawa Government. You also have to know Europeans and Americans are colonizing everywhere they visited in those days. Now who is whitewashing the visit by Commodore Perry?
#121, we cannot talk about so many topics here. I am sure you know very little about them, and you will not change your position no matter what truth I present. If you insist, these are my personal opinions.
Comfort Women: Most of them were willing prostitutes and well paid, as we can see in the classified ads and Allied reports in those days. The brothels were run by sole proprietors, not by the army. Some women were deceived by pimps, but Japanese police actively prevented such deception as written in news reports in those days. There were many rape cases by Japanese soldiers in occupied area during WW2. But rapes victims are different from comfort women. The total number of comfort women is quite unknown.
Nanking Massacre: Battle of Nanking occurred. By the way, do you call army confrontation “Massacre”? A lot of Chinese soldiers were killed. So were Chinese guerrillas. A lot of civilian casualties. The number of people killed is disputed.
atrocities in Manchukuo: I do not see which incident you are talking about.
Unit 731 medical experiments: The unit killed a lot of people in illegal medical experiment. But none of them were tried as war criminals because the US appreciated the experiments so much that it forgave the unprecedented crime in return for the report of the experiment.
“The example in #73 is not from the government. The government has to recognize it and teach it widely in textbooks. How many people in Japan are familiar with that documentary? ”
People may not be familiar with that particular doc,but pretty much aware about the event focused in the film,for not only it’s on textbook,but also been covered by mainstream media very frequently for the past six decades.
“P.S. “Atarashii Rekishi Kyokasho” (新しい歴史教科書) is one particular example of a controversial Japanese textbook filled with whitewash and revisionism. Admittedly, I don’t know who the specific authors are or if Hata was one of them.”
“One particular”? You mean “the only”.
I think wikipedia entry on Hata Ikuhiko is written by someone who wants to denounce Hata.(He is very critical on Iris Chang…..)
Hata had never written any textbook so far(although he wrote lots and lots of critical comment on the textbook disputes) and he is not even the member of “Atarashii Rekishi Kyokasyo Wo Tsukurukai”(he had even written critical essay on the group).The group broke apart in 2006 due to internal struggle in the groups.
“The Ministry of Education approved the original version. The outcry was such that they flip-flopped on it and had a revised edition made. The revised edition was merely less egregious than the original.#
No way.
Japanese Ministry of Education DID NOT approved the original version for there is so called “Neighboring country clauses”.That allows the ministry to reject any historical textbooks that deny the agrressive nature of Japanese foreign relation with East Asia in the modern history.
The one that passed the MoE guideline was selected by less than 0.03% of entire junior highschools in the country in 2001.It became 0.4% because the group had torned down becuase of the prssure from publisher Fusosha which eventually ended partnaership with “Tsukurukai” last year.
“So, tell me, you two, what are your thoughts on the forced sexual slavery of women in Japanese military brothels, the Nanjing Massacre, the atrocities in Manchukuo, and Unit 731 medical experiments? Try doing it without whitewashing or bringing up what other countries have done.”
Forced sexual slavery of women in Japanese military brothels:
The women had suffered to work under harsh circumstances and there were human right abuses caused by the policies of the Japanese empire.
Nanking Massacre:
According to Hata,there were massacre of both disarmed KMT soldiers and John Rabe diary(of which was discovered by Iris Chang and also confirmed by Hata,who is highly critical of Chang,as highly reliable source)that mass killing of unarmed civillians existed elsewhere in the city.
Atrocities in Manchukuo:
There were many atrocity in Manchuria.There were huge killing of coal mines in Fushun who had revolted mine company.There were also countless search and destroy types of counter-insurgency operation held in rural areas.
Unit 731:
There has been vivisection to Chinese and Korean partisans and Soviet agents captured in Manchuria.The unit had also tested germ welfare in the lab and conducted operation using mastard gas.
“I’m still waiting for examples of a widely used textbook in the US which whitewashes the histories of the US with Hawaii and Panama.”
I studied in a highschool in Scarsdale,New York in mid 1980′s for two years,did learn lots of the negative aspects in the American history including annexation of Hawaii,but didn’t learn anything about colonial exploitaion in Panama or the Phillipines….
I’ll leave it to squatch to correct the bad spellings….
I find Aceface’s response, for once, to be more reasonable. J, you are obviously deluded by Japanese fascist thought. The only thing you got right was about Unit 731, and, even then, you violated my request to not bring up what other countries did.
As stated before, racism colored how the US treated Japan after WWII, including how we ignored Unit 731 atrocities in exchange for the experimental results. I think that Unit 731 would have been charged with war crimes if it had performed the experiments predominantly on white POWs and/or colonizers. Since it was the “N*ps” doing it do a bunch of “sub-human, yeller Ch*nks,” (I’m using those semi-censored racial epithets to emphasize the predominant racism of the US in the 1940s and 1950s, not as my own personal views) the US saw the Unit 731 experiments as being similar to those done on animals. The US treatment of Unit 731 was truly disgraceful.
As for Manchukuo, the Japanese forced about 10 million into slave labor under harsh and dangerous conditions that resulted in many deaths. They also regularly invaded random homes in the middle of the night to round up men on invented charges and then executed these prisoners in what they called “strict disposals,” a kind of “final solution” to the Manchu problem. Unit 731 also operated heavily there doing medical experiments and germ warfare.
Aceface, “Atarashii Rekishi Kyokasho” was approved by the Japanese Education Ministry in March of 2001 after some revisions (most books are edited before publication), but the outcry from China, Korea, international scholars on Japan, and some Japanese scholars and citizens caused the Ministry to recommend that schools not use the book. A less controversial “revised edition” was made and approved in 2005.
J, you will find that I am more reasonable than you might think and that my views can change as more verifiable information is provided. I have surprised many people after a heated argument or debate by either accepting their position or softening my own. Often, I provoke my opponents into informing me and then decide what to make of the information. This discussion and the time I spent looking up the issue of the Japanese textbook controversy is causing me to rethink and soften my position. There are still fascists in Japan who try to push history revisionism into school textbooks, but it would seem that there are also more reasonable elements in Japan who moderate such nonsense. This also leads to the conclusion that many in China and Korea overreact to the textbook issue (not surprising to anybody intimately familiar with these countries).
For the Japanese and Japanophiles who don’t like my posts whenever these issues come up, keep in mind that I am responding to your posts. Most of you whine about me hating on the Japanese while ignoring that your posts are hating on the Koreans. Reasonable criticism is fine if you can also see the positive some of the time. Who knows, I might even have a few nice things to say about Japan…
According to NES, if the textbook doesn’t contain enough brutality material for his own liking, it’s whitewashing.
IMHO, Japanese textbooks does whitewash quite a bit. These books simply does not contain the numerous post war contributions Japan made to the rest of the world.
You mean like hentai, burusera, bukkake, and rape-fantasy comic books?
#127 nigelboy
That would also be the position of Minoru Matsui:
Do the Japanese really have a problem with depicting brutality in textbooks? Over-the-top, extreme brutality in Japanese movies, anime, and comics are fine, but it becomes bothersome to the Japanese mind when written in a textbook?! I suppose if you want similar social commentary that is easier to digest, and from an anti-American Japanese movie director, you can always watch Battle Royale (Batoru Rowaiaru) instead:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0266308/
No NES.
If showing such brutality to young kids is a solution to not repeat history, then I say we (as in Korea, U.S., U.K. China, whatever) should do it as well for our generation. Let’s show the brutality of the Korean soldiers during the Vietnam war to the young Korean minds. Let’s show the brutality of PLA in Tibet to the young Chinese minds. Etc.
But then again, if the ultimate purpose is to prevent such atrocities, then what’s the point of making it country specific? Why not just make a global standard movie called “WAR IS BAD” with subtitles in ALL languages?
But it appears THAT’S not the issue here is it? People like you want to just specifically focus on “How BAAAD” the Imperial Japan were. And if the textbook was 200 pages, you probably want 199 out of the 200 pages dedicated specifically to to “How BAAAD” the Imperial Japan were. Am I off here? Be honest.
#130 nigelboy
Yes. You are off.
I don’t think a textbook needs to have graphic descriptions of war atrocities but can be described in an age-appropriate manner. Graphic descriptions are better left for university and graduate study.
I don’t think that 200 pages of a textbook on the history of Imperial Japan should be largely devoted to war atrocities committed during WWII. That would not be balanced.
Maybe you should read my previous posts before jumping in. I said that the Germans went to far in self-loathing. It has created a backlash among the youth in Germany today. Extremes in either direction are unhealthy.
I don’t think that the Japanese should hate their country or that the textbooks should say that Japan is a bad country. Textbooks should give the facts without whitewashing and label certain individuals and actions as being bad.
Textbooks should also include what Japan has done in moving beyond the past and efforts made towards reconciliation in addition to including controversies like the Yasukuni Shrine while explaining both sides in an honest manner.
You should have come for the fun much sooner. The dead horse has already been beaten. I already said that looking into the issue more closely has caused me to come to the conclusion that many Japanese are trying to keep textbooks honest and that the Chinese and Koreans, in typical fashion, are overreacting to this particular issue. That isn’t to say that there aren’t fascist history revisionists in Japan who are trying to push their sanitized version of Imperial Japan.
If you are truly against showing brutality to children, perhaps you should join a movement in Japan to remove it from movies, anime, and comics. Japanese children are overexposed to brutal images. As such, it appears to me that the real motivation in opposing the depiction of brutality to children is to conceal an embarrassing part of history.
“Aceface, “Atarashii Rekishi Kyokasho” was approved by the Japanese Education Ministry in March of 2001 after some revisions (most books are edited before publication)
So you are taking back your original “The Ministry of Education approved the original version” at #121.Good.
“but the outcry from China, Korea, international scholars on Japan, and some Japanese scholars and citizens caused the Ministry to recommend that schools not use the book.”
No.Ministry of Education did not do such thing.The ministry does not have any legal authority to enforce schools to accept one textbook over another.
“Over-the-top, extreme brutality in Japanese movies, anime, and comics are fine, but it becomes bothersome to the Japanese mind when written in a textbook?! ”
Textbooks are something used in a schoolrooms and comic books are not.I don’t see any problem finding different standard of values here.And there are so called ratings.Those violent subculture products such like porn-animation you frequently reffer are probably not allowed for under 18.
“I suppose if you want similar social commentary that is easier to digest, and from an anti-American Japanese movie director, you can always watch Battle Royale (Batoru Rowaiaru) instead”
“Battle Royale” was such a controvertial film,the debate went to the diet to restrict screening.The original novel was taken off from the shelves of book stores in many cities.I don’t think you can use “Battle Royale” as the norm of Japanese cultural practice.
And the director Kinji Fukasaku is not just an “anti-American Japanese movie director”.He was a dissident type and made many controvertial film including story about Imperial troops conducting canniballism(right?)in Papua New Guinea called “Under the Flag of the Rising Sun”(1972) and had life long obsession to uncover the darker side of Japanese society.
Why won’t this thread just… die?
http://coreygilmore.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg
NES, as you can see my question was directed to user-81 @47, but that comment seems to have been deleted. In it he said that the Japanese government was calling his grandmother a liar and a whore. Therefore, I asked him if his grandmother was a comfort woman. He said no, so his now deleted comment remains a mystery as to it’s meaning.
BTW, don’t bring family into this buddy. That is playing dirty. Didn’t your momma ever teach you that? My grandfather volunteered but was rejected for health reasons, while his brother was accepted and fought the Japanese. He died during the war. So kindly STFU and don’t even think about defaming my family members unless you have courage to do it in person next time I am in Korea.
No NES
You stated that you ” don’t think a textbook needs to have graphic descriptions of war atrocities but can be described in an age-appropriate manner. ” and yet you cite some obscure movie that focus exactly on the graphic descriptions of war atrocities.
You state that you ” don’t think that 200 pages of a textbook on the history of Imperial Japan should be largely devoted to war atrocities committed during WWII. That would not be balanced.” and yet you feel that there isn’t enough on Unit 731, Manchuko, Comfort women, and Nanking Massacre.
You state that “Textbooks should also include what Japan has done in moving beyond the past and efforts made towards reconciliation ” and yet you make some completely irrelevant comments in regards to “hentai, burusera, bukkake, and rape-fantasy comic books”
So I’m really confused with your position in this matter because it appears you’re all over the place. If you feel that “Graphic descriptions are better left for university and graduate study.” then why are you arguing that there should be MORE emphasis placed on the first two paragraphs. (Brutality, Nanking, Unit 731)?
#135 nigelboy
Great! Then my work is done. Wangkon should be happy.
(I think the documentary is better for adults to see. I never recommended that it be shown in schools. My “irrelevant comments” were sarcasm in response to your statement about the post-WWII contributions that Japan has made to the rest of the world.)
There “not being enough” is not the same as “largely devoted to.” You put it at 199 out of 200 pages. Are you really saying that textbooks in Japan today devote 199 out of 200 pages to Japanese war atrocities? The places, peoples, magnitude, and nature of the atrocities should be discussed at the middle and high school levels but without graphic details. I hope you now understand what I’m saying. I would really like to go back to making less serious comments to amuse myself at your expense.
#134 SH (everyone feel free to pick your favorite expansion of this abbreviation)
How can I see it then? It is convenient that the comment you are referring to was magically deleted.
[Batting my eyelashes innocently] I didn’t make a statement about your family but asked a question just like you did since I was wondering why you always seem to be on the side of such people. I thought there might be some connection and so very much wanted to understand you better.
You shouldn’t complain when I was merely following your lead. People might think you’re a hypocrite. I pulled an “Aceface” by copying your exact statement to User and changing “grandmother” to “grandfather” and “comfort woman” to “serial gang rapist,” which is the opposing situation. Your question was offensive in whatever “deleted” context you choose, so I gave you a taste of your own medicine. 양약 입에 쓰다더니…
Many Koreans symbolically think of comfort women as their “adopted” grandmothers, and most of these women don’t have children by birth because their misplaced shame/social stigma/mental anguish kept them from marriage (or resulted in divorce) and their fertility was ruined by the repeated violent rapes and abortions during their early teenage years.
I’m sure you have another equally compassionate remark to make with regards to this issue.
As long as we’re asking innocent questions about each other’s family, did he accidentally shoot himself in the foot?
The “black sheep” of the family, the kind of more typical Aussie that I like and respect. Maybe there’s some hope for you yet.
Not big on free speech, I see. Why don’t you ask Robert to ban me again, 비겁한 놈아?!
You mean like how you did to User?
All 191cm and 110kg of me (I’ll spare you wjk’s typically provided measurements).
Now is when you say, “After school, behind the 7-11!”
Didn’t your mum ever teach you to use words instead of violence? Too much anime warps the mind…
On a lighter note, I found this highly entertaining home video of you, Mattuhachi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpCcelpvkps
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