Alarm bells went off in Korea last month when the US Board on Geographic Names revised its designation of what it calls the Liancourt Rocks as “undesignated sovereignty,” a decision later reversed with a little input from George Bush.
A YTN reporter with too much time on his hands has been poking around the website of the US Board on Geographic Names, and he’s not too pleased to learn that Americans call the two rivers separating North Korea from China and Russia by their Chinese names, the Yalu and the Tumen Rivers, rather than their Korean names, the Amnok and the Duman. He’s even more disturbed to learn that the Yalu is considered Chinese and the Tumen Russian.
It does seem strange that only one of the countries separated by a river would be listed, so out of curiosity, I checked a few other prominent rivers forming international borders. Among the many listings for places named Rio Grande, the actual river is listed with Mexico only, not the United States, and the Detroit River is listed with Canada only. The Mekong River doesn’t list any country, and the Danube is listed with Austria, Serbia, and Romania, but not Hungary. Country designation of international rivers seems somewhat arbitrary as the YTN reporter would have realized if he had widened his scope beyond Korea.
56 Comments
“their Korean names, the Amnok and the Domun”
Isn’t it Duman?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumen_River
yes, but that is a big “if,” is it not.
it is du-man gang.
it is ap-rok gang.
Typo on Duman corrected. Amnok stands because it is a transliteration of the pronunciation not the spelling. Saying “Aprok-gang” to a Korean would elicit a blank stare.
“ap-rok gang.”
That’s the Seoul contingent of the Associated Press.
And what’s more, Amnok is the English name for that river. It doesn’t matter a whit what the Koreans call it, just as it doesn’t matter that we call our country United States of America and they call it “Miguk”.
We decide the content of the English language. By “we”, of course, I mean Americans.
These chopes smell blood on the water. What’s next, changing “Japan” to “Ilbon?”
Sonagi, where did you get Domun? Is that from the Korean pronunciation of the city of Tumen? In Wikipedia the Tumen River and the city of Tumen look like they have different hanja.
@5 - good one.
“Country designation of international rivers seems somewhat arbritrary as the YTN reporter would have realized if he had widened his scope beyond Korea.”
but how would that help him enrage and rally The Sheep?
local US Korean radio today in the East Coast tri state area encouraged young US Koreans of all ages to become VANK members.
Wangkon, this is your life calling.
Someone at YTN just wants to stir trouble and sell newspapers. It’s not even really an issue.
Isn’t Yalu and Tumen just the Chinese pronunciation? Aren’t the Korean names just the Korean sino-pronunciation of the same Chinese characters?
Are we still allowed to call the fourth planet “Mars”, or must we bow down to Korea on that one too?
you’re right. It’s not like Dokdo means something else as Takeshima=Jukdo.
I said no to the CIA… and I can say no to VANK…
Brendon,
Didn’t you tell me someplace that you knew hanja?
If the Dokdo Takeshima dispute has taught us anything, it’s the internet, is the new battlefield in territorial disputes. It’s becoming obvious in Japan’s case the corporate sector being utilized to produce and distribute incorrect maps to lobby for Japan’s claim to Dokdo Takeshima.
Here are some examples. This is Yahoo.jp’s map of Dokdo (Takeshima 竹島)
http://dokdo-takeshima.com/japanese-tricks2.jpg
This is Mapion’s version showing Dokdo Takeshima as part of Shimane Prefecture.
http://dokdo-takeshima.com/mapfan-3.jpg
Japan’s Mapfan website shows a distict border between Ulleungdo and Dokdo (竹島)
http://dokdo-takeshima.com/mapfan-1.jpg
Dokdo’s security force would be better equipped with laptops than M-16s.
@User81:
I looked at the Chinese characters, and you are right. A colleague of mine in China was from the border city of Tumen, which she called “Domun” when speaking Korean. I was wondering where that mistake came from.
Yalu and Amnok have the same characters, but as User-81 noticed, Tumen and Duman don’t.
Yes, I can read hanja. Unfortunately, my children are rapidly outstripping me on this point.
“We decide the content of the English language. By “we”, of course, I mean Americans.”
LOL. Yes, you ‘Americans’ only decide the content of the English language.
Don’t know if that was deliberate or not, but it’s funny shit nonetheless.
Being able to read hanja will make your kids smarter…
I know I’m teaching my kids hanja… but I won’t MAKE THEM play a musical instrument like my parents did.
It’s obviously deliberate.
You have kids, Wangkon?
Wangkon, post your address and I’ll send your kids a banjo.
“but I won’t MAKE THEM play a musical instrument like my parents did.”
Don’t be such an ingrate.
I hated studying the guitar when I was a kid and quit after several years of lessons.
I’ve been playing again for a few years. I wish I hadn’t quit the first time around.
FYI
in cantonese, yalu is pronounecd as ap-luk, and tumen as tou-moon
in another chinese dialect (teochew), it is arp-luck and domun. something like that.
even the mandarin pronounciation of them are very close (i mean tumon and domun).
although the hanja of tumen and domun differ, i think it is very likely that these hanja/characters were a different representation of the same name, i.e. when people tried ot record them down in writing.
even in china, many place names have different characters but the same pronounciation.
i am pretty sure the chinese wouldn’t mind/care if the korean way is used, because it is fine to use urumqi for ulumuqi. after 1949, PRC changed the chinese name of Dihua back to the Uighur name of Urumqi, and changed the Chinese name (still used in Taiwan) of Mount Shenmu to its tibetan name of Chululangma (i.e. Mt Everest by the English)
—
btw, the korean pronounciation of hanja are almost the same as some southern chinese dialects (some in teochew, some in cantonese). (digression - i think this supports the theory that the present day chinese in central and northern china has experienced more changes than those areas surrounding it, as a result of invasion/integration with various nationalities during the past 2000 years). so korean’s claim of 60% of china isn’t without base
i think the chinese angry-youth should gladly agree.
“Country designation of international rivers seems somewhat arbritrary as the YTN reporter would have realized if he had widened his scope beyond Korea.”
Nothing is arbitrary to a Korean reporter - or ultra-nationalist - looking for a conspiracy theory. Widening the scope beyond Korea is unfamiliar territory.
@17:
People believe the name of Tumen river originated from Manchu, it’s called ‘Tumen Seqin’ in Manchu.
Tumen means ‘万’ or ‘萬’ (ten thousands, a lot of) in Manchu and ‘Seqin’ means ‘河源’ (the source of a river). It means the source of many many rivers. Forget my clumsy translation.
As for YaLu, seems it’s originated from Chinese, but who cares, a name is a name.
And I’m not a little bit surprised at the news.
Some South Korean climber even issued a request to ask Sichuan authority to name a mountain after South Korean climbers who were died when climbing a mountain in Sichuan.
http://china.donga.com/gb/srv/.....8050856288
I agree with Brendon 100%, and I’ve used the “American” vs. “Miguk” example myself. How arrogant does a country have to be to tell other countries what things are called in that other country’s own language? If we want to call it the “Sea of Japan” why does Korea get a vote? I have no problem with calling it “Dong Hae” in Korean, but why should I listen to Koreans about what it’s called in English?
Y’know, the Brits call a certain body of water the English Channel, and the French call it La Manche, and nobody gets bent out of shape about it.
#27,
…and how arrogant does a country have to be to reserve the name of the inhabitants of a whole continent for its own citizens?
I remember a Finnish friend getting bent out of shape when I insisted on refering to Turku as Åbo in English. She retaliated by calling Mariehamn “Maarianhamina”.
When I was at school we were taught that the Åland Islands were a triumph of international arbitration. But it can still cause quite a ruckus. Same thing applies to Nordschleswig/Sønderjylland. I happen to prefer Nordschleswig because that’s what it is (Sønderjylland sounds like an attempted land grab to me
)
I totally remembered to close that blockquote. What went wrong?
It also reminds me of the storm about the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Someone had even defaced the English language map of Europe at my school with “some f***ing new Europe this is” next to the name FYR Macedonia.
Macedonia
Check this out. A response from a spokesman at the State Department to a (presumably) Greek journalist asking about the name of Macedonia.
MR. ERELI: No, no, I’m not going to let you finish. What’s the question? You’re taking up people’s valuable time with a reference to something written in 1945. I will tell you, and I will end this here because I don’t want to just go on forever on this. I told you what the U.S. policy is: We support the UN. If you want to bring in history from 50-plus years ago, you’re free to do so, but let’s do it at a time when you’re not imposing upon others. Thank you.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2005/54830.htm
“Y’know, the Brits call a certain body of water the English Channel, and the French call it La Manche, and nobody gets bent out of shape about it.”
Maybe nobody gets bent out of shape about it because the French already got their name officially accepted in the same way Korea is hoping to do.
http://www.korea.net/news/issu.....ard_no=348
Considering how historical perceptions are being used not just by the Koreans but also the Japanese and Chinese to support various claims on territories and their names, I don’t think it’s so ridiculous for Koreans to be concerned that the two rivers making their northern border (North Korea-controlled territory is considered by Seoul to be ROK territory) are not listed as partly theirs in an international setting.
Well, maybe you remembered that you needed the closing tag, but there was no closing tag there originally. As I also wear the floppy hat of the HTML Elf, I fixed it for you. But be more careful in the future.
#30 - Is there still a significant Swedish minority in Turku?
#31 - Eujin, that’s a cool quote. The Greek issue with a neighboring country calling itself Macedonia is just as retarded as Korea’s obsession with two tiny islands they presently - and will continue to - possess.
The Greeks and the Koreans (and I feel confident to comment on this as I have lived in both countries) could compete for gold in the irrational nationalism stakes at the dickhead olympics. Calling ‘Skopje’ Macedonia in front of Yannis will illicit the same response as referring to Dokdo as Takeshima does in Bum suk.
“…and how arrogant does a country have to be to reserve the name of the inhabitants of a whole continent for its own citizens?”
I’m presuming this is a dig at the ‘Americans,’ So… could you point me to the continent of ‘America’?
@Tripod,
Apples and oranges. The term “America,” as used in the name of two continents and one country, comes from the name of an Italian cartographer. I fail to see the arrogance in that.
My point is about IMPOSING names on the languages of others. I don’t insist that Koreans refer to my home country as America; they can continue to call it Miguk or whatever else strikes their fancy.
Thank you Mr HTML Elf.
#34, globalvillageidiot There weren’t many people speaking Swedish went I went there. The story I was told (by a Finn) was that most of the Swedish speakers in Finland had moved to the Åland Islands and most of the Åland islanders had moved to Sweden. Don’t know how true that is though.
#35, aaronm, I agree with you about the Greeks. I’ve heard some corkers in my time. They vetoed FYM Macedonia’s entry into NATO because the naming dispute wasn’t settled.
Mind you, I’ve also heard Ethiopians completely denying the existence of Eritrea, Georgians squabbling with Turks about Abkhazia and Czechs insisting adamantly that their country is in Central Europe, and is in no way part of Eastern Europe.
If you think that American nationals are immune to getting bent out of shape over geographical names, then consider this about Samoa
“In July 1997 the Constitution was amended to change the country’s name from Western Samoa to Samoa (officially the “Independent State of Samoa”). Western Samoa had been known simply as Samoa in the United Nations since joining the organization in 1976. The neighboring U.S. territory of American Samoa protested the move, feeling that the change diminished its own Samoan identity. American Samoans still use the terms Western Samoa and Western Samoans.”
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/1842.htm
It seems though that the US State Department doesn’t care what their friends in Pago Pago think and just refers to the independent country as Samoa. (Remember folks, Korea is not the only remaining divided country in the world).
That fact has been clarified a number of times by foreigners in Korea.
No. The battlefield in international disputes is now, as it has always been, the actual battlefield, diplomatic chambers, and the world courts. The Internet is just the battlefield for undereducated wankers like us to use what little knowledge we have of the subject (typically culled from other Internet sites, since none of us have access to the actual primary sources) to piss each other off for fun. So, we get to feel self-important, as if our hobby of dicking around with territorial disputes (which 99% of the world wouldn’t care two drops of piss for) actually weighed one iota on either side of the ultimate equation of whether or not godforsaken territory x belonged to country y or country z. But it’s fun, and so that’s why we do it.
On the point of the original post (since this really isn’t about Takeshidokmado), I did see that Amnok was a searchable term in the Board of Geographic Names’s database, and it appeared to point to the Yalu River (although the name was listed as a variant).
Zonath is correct that Amnok and Duman are listed as variants along with names in other languages such as Manchu and Russian.
I was once on a Korean TV game show, that came to the US, on how much foreigners know about Korea and they asked that as a true or false question. I went with false and was counted as being wrong. Then I started listing other divided countries, so the PD called a do-over. ^^
What countries would be included as divided countries?
Do Mainland China and Taiwan still count?
@43 User
I brought up Mainland China and Taiwan first, to which they responded that the UN didn’t recognize the division. I pointed out that I didn’t recognize the UN and then went on. Samoa and Timor are other examples. If one wants to play looser with the definition, one could throw in Kurdistan (divided between 3 countries) and California as examples. If the question is carefully worded with a few more qualifiers, then Korea would be the only answer.
I would agree with you on China & Taiwan. U.N. recognition is supposed to mean what? How does the U.N. not recognize a divided country? Is it because Taipei doesn’t have full representation? That supports their categorization as “divided” I think.
Was Samoa ever a single country? If it wasn’t, then it doesn’t really count as a divided country IMO. East Timor and the other side of the island weren’t ever a single country either, were they?
The Kurds represent a divided people, but not a divided country.
Cyprus, Northern Island and the larger part of Ireland might count as divided countries. Mongolia, too.
@28 “…and how arrogant does a country have to be to reserve the name of the inhabitants of a whole continent for its own citizens?”
We’re really, really arrogant for our relentless international campaign to hijack the name of the continent for ourselves. That’s exactly why we RESERVED it in, when was it, in 1963? Our next arrogant step will be for AMERICA (the USA) to start petitioning the UN to force all other countries in the North and South American continents to have an asterisk assigned to itself which will be recognized as meaning “NOT a part of the REAL America.” If the UN won’t sanction it, we’re just going to arrogantly act unilaterally, as usual.
But seriously though… are US citizens really behind this nomenclature, or might this be perception of arrogance brought on by an I’m-not-from-a-dominant-country-complex (assuming you aren’t from the US)? I’ve never suggested such nomenclature to friends from other countries. Yet, they all seem confortable referring to me as “American” when referring to my US citizenship.
@45 User
I agree for the most part with all of your points. As I said, it all depends on how the question is qualified, and I knew the Kurdistan example was loose and is more a country divided between other countries (I said three, but it is four or five countries). Many Kurds would disagree that Kurdistan is not a country and that they are just merely a divided people.
You are right that Samoa and Timor are not perfect examples, mainly because the other parts of those “nations” are part of larger nations rather than separate countries in and of themselves.
My great great great great great etc grand pappy claimed New Guinea as Queensland territory on behalf of the Commonwealth to stop the evil German expansion in the Pacific. This was something he was not legally allowed to do as the Premier of a colony.
But technically Papua New Guinea, West Papua, Papua were a collection of possibly 1000 seperate tribes and cultures and not a single country.
I like the T-shirt with the astronaut planting the American flag on the moon with the caption that reads, “Finders Keepers.” That’s why I’ve arrogantly referred to the moon as “America,” since 1969.
I heard America didn’t want the moon anymore after they arrived and found out the Indians weren’t already there.
Nice shirt, cmm. Where can I get one?
You can get the shirt here.
@49 cmm
Do you also refer to Uranus as Canada?
(just teasing, Canadian friends ^^)
Your logic is dead-on wrt to the Injuns, but we still want the moon, for there is no better place from which to look down upon the entire Earth.
Mars is next. A little know fact is that on the recent Mars landing, NASA dropped a package of blankets laced with Smallpox. You see, Martians, like the Injun savages, are redskinned too. And when the Martians come to the surface, well it’s so cold there, those little guys are gonna snatch those blankets up and take them back down to their hives.
Dunno bout the shirt… haven’t tracked one down yet. I reckon one could probably scare one up on the internet though.
…and how arrogant does a country have to be to reserve the name of the inhabitants of a whole continent for its own citizens?
Colombia?
I think it’s arrogant of Korea to use its own name. “Korea” used to cover half of northeast Asia, but this little bitty country now hogging that name barely covers the entry way. We should call the place 현관.
Colombia, Bolivia, America… how many countries are named after a person?