Some 20 Korean vets went to Japan’s Tsushima Island on Wednesday to hold a protest in front of Tsushima City Hall criticizing Japan’s claim to the Dokdo Islets.
Their placards also read, “Tsushima (Daemado) is Korean territory, too.”
It’s not a protest without writing in blood, of course.
Dokdo: Bridging Korea’s Ideological Divide, Since 1952.
(HT to Occidentalism)
{ 319 comments… read them below or add one }
That’ll won over the hearts and minds of the average Japanese.
D’oh: “win over”
If it ain’t the illegals making a fool of themselves overseas, it’s the angry nationalists painting Koreans ugly in neighbor countries.
hanshim-hada, hanshim-hae.
Beautiful.
Hilarious.
Compelling.
Dynamic.
Going to an island full of natives and insisting that their island is the height of delusion. Obviously they didn’t bother asking the locals what their opinions were.
Tsushima was one of the islands that Rhee Syngman lied about to the US (along with the Liancourt Rocks) claiming that it was historically Korean territory. The US investigated the claim, and found that Tsushima and the Liancourt Rocks have never been a part of Korea.
What island will be next? Why not just go for the big fish? Claim Japan as theirs and then Dok-do will become theirs automatically.
I have come to the inescapable conclusion that everything Koreans do in the international arena is merely the internal dialogue of a radically isolated and solipsistic nation.
I wonder if they are aware that foreigners doing the same in their country face being deported? If and when I return to Australia, I will lobby the government to rescind the rights of any Korean nationals who are not permanent residents and see how they like it.
Don’t you mean 1954, the year Korea illegally occupied the Guano Rocks by the use of illegitimate force (at a time when Japan was constitutionally and practically incapacitated from responding?) That’s when Syngman Rhee’s inclusion of the Guana Rocks within his unilateral declaration of the so-called Rhee Line delimiting the scope of Korea’s alleged maritime rights (also illegal by then prevailing standards re the law of the sea) really became operational.
Syngman Rhee declared the line in ’52. The “use of illegitimate force” came in ’54.
Yeah, that’s what I was pointing out, though I omitted the 1952 date in connection with the Rhee Line: it didn’t become “operational” w/ re to the Rocks until ’54
Matt wrote:
“Tsushima was one of the islands that Rhee Syngman lied about to the US (along with the Liancourt Rocks) claiming that it was historically Korean territory.”
How was it a lie, pray tell?
“The US investigated the claim, and found that Tsushima and the Liancourt Rocks have never been a part of Korea.”
They did, huh? First of all, show me the source that the US “found” out about this….and WHO among the Americans found that they were not KOrean territory and based on WHAT evidence?
But if you’re right (which I really doubt) then the Japanese lost Japanese land….to Korea. And I’m okay with that.
They look they’re in their 40′s-50′s. How do these guys make
a living?
They look like they’re in their 40’s-50’s. How do these guys make
a living?
Matt, you forgot to mention the Japanese also lobbied for Korea’s Ulleugdo. An Chosun island since the 6th Century.
Meanwhile the allies mulled over giving Chejudo to the Japanese…..
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/japanese-cheju.jpg
Rhee’s Peace line.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/rhee-line-limit.jpg
The boundary between Japan and Korea from earlier drafts of the S.F. Treaty before the U.S. decided to incorporate U.S~Japanese joint trusteeships of former Japanese outlying islands into the treaty.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/Allied.jpg
Given the geography of the region, Rhee’s “brutally enforced” Peace Line is the quite fair compared to what the Japanese are demanding. Rhee knew the Americans and the Japanese were giving him the shaft so he took matters into his own hands.
America gave Rhee the shaft? Rhee would have never acceded to power in the ROK in the first place had it not been for the active intervention of the U.S.
How come nobody ever wants to take New Jersey?
#11
Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusk_documents
If you never knew about this, you shouldn’t even discuss the issue.
If this is true, then Rusk was wrong. Plus, this was the late 40s to early 50s, so opinions about what is right or wrong change; as an example, back then blacks were separate but equal from whites in America, and the US gov’t supported that…which still didn’t make it right. Now if someone said that blacks and whites should still be separate but equal today based on something a US gov’t official said in the late 40s and early 50s, then I gotta wonder about this kind of view. Anyway, Korea’s claim was stronger than Japan’s in regards to Dokdo. Then some guy named Rusk made his conclusions. I’m glad he didn’t say Chejo-do was also Japanese territory, though he very well could have. Heck, I am glad he didn’t say SEOUL was Japanese territory. He could have, but that still wouldn’t have made him right, and Korea would have been right to defy Rusk if Rusk HAD said Chejo-do, the city of Seoul, and other Korean territory was really Japanese territory. And Korea took what was its own rocks and took Dokdo.
Anyway, I do hope you’re right, and then I can tell people that Korea TOOK Japanese territory, which sounds fine by me.
Sorry, typo: CheJU-do
The Americans considered both sides of the argument of course. It’s no wonder why Korea doesn’t want the case to go to the ICJ.
Don’t assume it’s arbitrary just because it defies your belief. Belief alone is not good enough. It’s not religion, you know.
I don’t agree with Rush’s conclusions, either, but I doubt the South Korean ambassador at the time regarded the Assistant Secretary of State for Far Eastern Affairs of the country that had liberated Korea from Japanese colonial rule was at the time rescuing his country from North Korean aggression as just “some guy named Rusk.”
The infamous Rusk papers…….yawn.
First, they were confidential memorandums. None of these papers translated into public/official U.S. policy and certainly none of this stance saw the text of the San Fran Peace Treaty. The Japanese themselves didn’t even know about these papers until they were declassified 50years later.
Rusk was an rabid anti communist whose decisions on Takeshima were based on military posturing for the cold war against China and Russia.
On the other hand the United States State Department’s Geographer S.W. Boggs recognized the potential for conflict between Korea and Japan if Takeshima were ceded to Japan. His recommendation based on the geography of the region was to grant sovereignty of Dokdo to the Koreans.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/SFUS.jpg
The Japan Peace Treaty was a failure because the Americans turned it into something it was never intended to be. MacArthur decided in 1949 to incorporate joint trusteeships between the U.S. and Japan in tandem with the Peace Treaty. From then on, the whole decision process for granting ownership of former Japanese territories became tainted.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/sf-mac3.jpg
We can see very early on the Americans envisioned whopping up weather and radar stations on Liancourt Rocks in a joint arrangement with the Japanese. (security considerations) I always laugh when Japan’s MOFA quotes this document and leaves out the last part. They always say “Japan’s claim is old an appears valid….” Then the leave the rest out.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/us-radar-takeshima.jpg
Dogbert, by “the shaft” I meant the process in which the Americans granted Liancourt Rocks to Japan.
I’m sorry, did the U.S. officially grant the Liancourt Rocks to Japan? I may be misinterpreting, but I thought one tenet of your argument was that the U.S. did not actually do so.
Robert (#21),
Why don’t you agree with Sec. of State Rush’s conclusions? Because if you didn’t….?
Korea had no historical claim, whatsoever, on either Liancourt Rocks or Tsushima.
Correction: Sec. of State Rusk
Makes me feel better, given America’s sophisticated understanding of Asian affairs. Especially in 1951.
Why should they when they have effective control? Let’s see how quickly the Japanese jump if Taiwan brings the Senkaku Island dispute/non-dispute to the ICJ.*
*I’ve read that the Japanese once offered to bring the Senkaku dispute to the ICJ. Is this just misinformation, or does someone actually have a link?
“How come nobody ever wants to take New Jersey?”
Ya can’t even pump your own fucking gas in fuckin Jersey!
These idiots will make life harder for Koreans who live or own property in Tsushima, which is getting a shot in the arm by South Korean cash.
Are there pictures of the signs that say “대마도도 한국영토”?
Who cares, really? Korean cops are already there. Besides, once the polar ice caps melt, there may not be much left of it.
Because he fails to recognize the 1905 takeover as part of a wider pattern of Japanese aggression.
Ultimately, however, it doesn’t really matter what I believe — Japan isn’t getting the islets. Ever. At this point, why even continue making claims?
Dogbert, the Americans had no right to grant anything to anyone.
The Japan Peace Treaty was signed by 48 nations and as Dulles pointed out in his memorandum America was but one of these signatories. In other words, our interpretation of Potsdam is that it doesn’t affect the definition of Japan’s territories, however other nations disagree. (such as Canada and Russia)
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dulles-doc1.jpg
It’s funny how America’s posture changed.
First they agreed the Japan Peace Treaty could do little more than follow the terms of Potsdam and Cairo.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/japanese-cheju.jpg
Then later when the Americans realized these agreements might hamper their ability to utilize former Japanese territories they decided to reinterpret the relevance of the wartime treaties. (ie Rusk papers)
Who ever said the “Rusk Document” was official? America doesn’t officially take sides on this. But it does cast doubt on the Korean claim that their case is concrete.
BTW, neither China nor Taiwan makes the “Senkaku/Diaoyu” a big anti-Japanese propaganda tool. There might be some inter-government exchanges, but that’s about it.
The islands were given “back” by the Americans and basically the Americans side with Japan on this. Oh yes, the government of Japan will stop any Japanese national from sailing there and making nationalist protests. I believe the Chinese discourage such protests on their side, too.
So I wouldn’t even compare.
I can’t believe it’s eight fuckin beans to cross over the GW!
Steve, you just wrote that the U.S. granted the Liancourt Rocks to Japan. I’m trying to get straight what you mean by that.
If it’s meaningless for Japan to lay claims, then why should Korea continue to assert the rocks are theirs regardless of any outstanding Japanese moves on the issue? If only Korea can show similar restraints as China and Taiwan. They can’t , and that’s where I see the problem is.
BTW, I wonder if Taiwan can bring any case to the ICJ.
“If it’s meaningless for Japan to lay claims, then why should Korea continue to assert the rocks are theirs regardless of any outstanding Japanese moves on the issue? ”
Squatch, that is the million dollar question. Why can’t Korea control its emotions when it comes to Dokdo whenever the Japanese make a move intended to provoke them? I think EVERYONE on this thread has thought about this at some point.
It still has nothing to do with who is the rightful owner of the rocks, though. If you claimed that my house really belonged to you and I got angry and decided to slaughter pheasants or go to your country to protest this….this STILL doesn’t make my house any less mine or make it any more yours.
Robert (#31),
If Liancourt Rocks were unclaimed by any nation, how can you say their “incorporation” was part of a wider pattern of aggression? There was no aggression involved in Japan’s incorporation of Liancourt Rocks.
People’s ignorance about that history is what is so frustrating. Everyone seems to have an opinion about something they know little or nothing about.
Robert @ #31,
That does not even make sense. In what manner did the incorporation by Shimane prefecture advance Japan’s “aggression” towards Korea? Japan would soon control the whole of Korea, so why bother to pay such careful attention to the Liancourt Rocks, and place then within the 内地 (Japan mainland) administrative area and not the 朝鮮総督府 (Chousen administration) since Japan controlled them both?
The Liancourt Rocks were uninhabited, and no evidence has ever shown that the Koreans even knew about the island before they started working on Japanese fishing and sealing vessels.
It is frustrating to see you take this position despite the fact that there is zero evidence on the Korean side, which I am sure you are aware of. On the otherhand, I can understand why you would be like this as you live in Korea and any unorthodox stance could be very damaging to you.
I’d call the cops if someone did that. So maybe Korea and Japan should go to the ICJ?
The U.S. and Britain did something similar back in the “Pig War”. Thus today, Canadians need passports to stay the weekend at the beautiful San Juans.
Or maybe the Koreans can show restraint, and the issue will dissipate.
My bad. Dokdo was terra nullius in 1905 (just like the Senkaku?), right?
Look, Gerry, I don’t doubt you know much more about this subject that I. You’ve dedicated a gazillion posts and one university teaching position to it.
Very cute. Very Japanophile.
Ha ha – being from the wonderful Pacific Northwest I find the Pig War interesting as well as amusing…..it was one of those events in Washington’s past that got me interested in history…..
“Or maybe the Koreans can show restraint, and the issue will dissipate.”
Smartest thing I’ve heard all day. But it’s not likely that Koreans, in this case, will do the smartest thing.
“Very cute. Very Japanophile”.
Perhaps, but in Japan I could take whatever stance I want, including the stance that Takeshima belongs to Korea, without jeopardizing my relationships with Japanese people. You couldn’t say that Dokdo is Japanese land in Korea. I thought I was pointing out something obvious that everyone here understands.
You may very well think that Takeshima belongs to Korea, and think you have good reasons for it. But even if you did think it historically belongs to Japan, I doubt you would be saying so or everything you have worked for in Korea would be at an end. Is it so bad to admit this reality?
I think the Japanese, if they want it so bad, are going to have to pry Dokdo from Korea’s dead cold hands. In otherwords, nothing less then the use of force is going to make those tiny islets Japanese.
To Bevers @38:
“There was no aggression involved in Japan’s incorporation of Liancourt Rocks.”
Oh my God….. Bevers, a country like Japan that took Formosa (Taiwan) from China in 1895 by force and was intent on joining the imperialist race with the Western countries didn’t display further aggression in 1906 when it took Liancourt?? I don’t know what you had in your cornflakes this morning, but I don’t see how you could see Japan’s aggressive moves against Formosa in 1895, Japan’s aggressive moves against the island of Sakhalin Island in 1905, Japan’s aggressive moves against the entire Korean nation in 1910 (and actually well before that), Japan’s aggressive moves against Siberia in 1918 (which were finally thwarted by the Western Powers), Japan’s aggressive moves against Manchuria, Hong Kong, the Philippines, Malaysia, Dutch East Indies, Wake Island, etc. in 1941-45 and now SOMEHOW claim that Japan, without a hint of aggression, benevolently and peacefully took Liancourt Rocks. Naturally you can see why Koreans and many people in the West look upon Japan’s recent claims on Dokdo and the other islands with a bit of wary cynicism when Japan (and you) try to claim that Liancourt was Japan’s ONE peaceful and legitimate expansion in the 20th century when in actuality it was the most aggressive and atrocious of conquerers from 1894-1945.
And as we know, Bevers, Japan has other territorial disputes with Russia and China still, so Korea isn’t alone in having to deal with Japanese bullsh*t about land Japan supposedly took legitimately.
“People’s ignorance about that history is what is so frustrating. Everyone seems to have an opinion about something they know little or nothing about.”
Exactly, Bevers, exactly.
“Look, Gerry, I don’t doubt you know much more about this subject that I. You’ve dedicated a gazillion posts and one university teaching position to it.”
OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, it wouldn’t. That’s not to say that something I write — either here or elsewhere — won’t eventually get me fired/deported, but you assume too much.
No, you were impugning my motives. But that’s OK. I understand.
Japan is never going to attack Korea. There is a remote possibility that Korea could attack Japan over the issue given the level of emotionalism in Korea. After all, Korea has increased their military patrols around the Liancourt Rocks during the current controversy, a hysterical over reaction.
Still, the Liancourt Rocks issue is growing pretty interesting. I am not sure if you realise or not but pretty much all of Korea’s assertions about the Liancourt Rocks have been debunked. I don’t actually care about the status of the Liancourt Rocks, but it will be good to have the historical record set right.
Robert,
I know next to nothing about Senkaku, except that it has nothing to do with Japan’s incorporation of Liancourt Rocks.
Robert, we will just have to agree to disagree. You know I don’t have a lot of faith in the Korean polity.
“Japan is never going to attack Korea [again].”
I think Tokugawa Ieyasu said that to Chosun in the early 17th century. Oh well, so much for promises…
Did the Tokugawa regime ever attack Korea? For that matter, in what sense did Japan attack Korea during the pre-colonial period? Battle of Seoul? Battle of Pyongyang? Nope, nothing of the sort happened.
Korea folded like a house of cards and Japan picked up the pieces. This is a pretty unique event in human history and deserves further study.
dear shakuhachi,
fuck you, ass hole.
Well, I have no idea why, but Robert has shown that he is biased against the Japanese and Chinese in this and other posts.
This used to be one of my favorite blogs, but quite clearly the owner has a hidden agenda, and not just against the Chinese and Japanese, but West Africans too it seems.
wjk, your unfounded comment is more proof as to how KKKoreans cannot and will not listen to reason or proof. Good argument on your side nonetheless.
Can’t speak about the Taiwanese, but the islands are definitely on the radar of the Chinese, and the issue surfaces anytime there are tensions between China and Japan. In fact, while strolling in downtown Qingdao, I was astonished to receive a handout on the dispute from a young Chinese man distributing them in a park just 100 feet from City Hall. It is rare to see citizens engaging in politically oriented activities in public. Chinese netizens discuss the dispute in internet forums. The Chinese media doesn’t froth at the mouth and Chinese don’t cover themselves from head to toe with bees, eat flags, hammer at pheasants, or do other crazy attention-grabbing stunts like Korean demonstrators, but the Senkaku/Diaoyu dispute isn’t just a topic of discussion in bilateral meetings.
Warning… the link below is shameless nationalistic “wanking”…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RK4bmOKHZg
My personal opinion? Highly fictional, but nice special effects since they had all those left over props from Bulmyeolui Yi Soon-shin.
Yo Matt, ever heard of the Hideyoshi invasion of Korea? Then, as WangKon said, Tokugawa, who took over Japan after Hideyoshi, promised Korea that Japan would never invade again. Well, we know how THAT promise turned out.
Korea has no history of aggression toward Japan. Japan, on the other hand, clearly has shown a pattern of aggression against Korea over the centuries. To hear you say that there is a possibility that Korea could invade Japan is like saying there is a possibility that the country now known as Israel or Poland or the Czech Republic could invade Germany; in other words, if it were to happen, the world would understand (but not approve), but it isn’t going to happen.
Correct sonagi – the general educated Chinese population is much more civilized, rational and reasonable than the frothing-at-the-mouth Korean nationalist nutjobs, which is why China is a much more pleasant place to live in, nevermind the richer culture, better food, language et al.
dear kangnam,
him and I go back many years.
he is a paranoid, and evil asshole, that’s for certain.
“The Chinese media doesn’t froth at the mouth and Chinese don’t cover themselves from head to toe with bees, eat flags, hammer at pheasants, or do other crazy attention-grabbing stunts like Korean demonstrators…”
Well Sonagi, how a few Korean crazies demonstrate doesn’t take away from the fact that they are right on the issue of Dokdo. See #37.
JK, your point is moot – you are basically deriding the KKKoreans for not being strong enough to attack their neighboring countries.
Kang, I am not deriding Korea. Korea has the strength to put a serious hurting on Japan, but an invasion of Japan by Korea WILL NOT HAPPEN. For us to speculate on the possiblity of Korea invading Japan after it’s been the other way around of Japan being the aggressor against Korea on at least two occasions is ridiculous.
What’s a KKKorean?
wjk, what do personal vendettas have to do with logic?
No wonder Robert allows your ilk on here – you are both blinded racists.
How could Korea attack Japan? Japan would annihilate Korea, as they have been doing for the last few decades with music, film, and all around debauchery…
“The Chinese media doesn’t froth at the mouth and Chinese don’t cover themselves from head to toe with bees, eat flags, hammer at pheasants, or do other crazy attention-grabbing stunts like Korean demonstrators”
Exactly. Nor does the Chinese head of state give long speeches about the Diaoyus being theirs or declare “diplomatic war” on Japan. I see no comparison.
kangnam, I am not a racist.
I tell the white man, what the white man or the white girl here didn’t even think about as racism.
In the west, white men’s past times are calling each other racists. In the past, they couldn’t care less.
Mere manipulation of facts, no logic on his part.
Simple example for your tiny head. Japan had many factories, and a sizable hydroelectric power facility in North Korea. According to that logic, North Korea, via Japan’s grace, should be one of the top places to benefit from colonialism in the 1900s.
South Korea started off with less resources, less industry, compounded by total destruction in 1950.
I refer you to night time satelite photos.
QED.
Well wait… didn’t they? After all, North Korea started out with more of everything than South Korea, following liberation. Japan may have started the wasting of NK, but the decades of woeful mismanagement by the Kim regime certainly brought the process to its modern-day state of advancement. It’s certainly not fair to blame North Korea being almost completely dark at night solely (or even mostly) on the occupation.
The saddest thing about this issue (that is, aside from some of the moronic comments it continues to generate) is that it should be a non-issue for Koreans: Dokdo is currently occupied by Korea and this situation isn’t about to change.
Sakuhachi is right. Korea’s annexation of Korea went pretty smoothly, and that was because many Koreans wanted it. In fact, many Westerners wanted it, including, I believe, President Roosevelt. Japan was seen by many Koreans as the only country that could save Korea from herself. In fact, I have read that tens of thousands of Koreans even volunteered to fight with the Japanese against the Russia in the Russo-Japanese war.
Anyway, this is getting off the subject, but Sakuhachi have made some very good points and does not deserve to be called the names he has been called.
By the way, it is not true that Koreans never attacked Japan. I believe 8,000 Korean warriors were a part of the Mongol invasion of Japan in 1274. That was before Hideyoshi’s invasion of Korea, so Koreans, along with the Mongols, drew first blood.
Correction: I meant Japan’s annexation of Korea.
okay wjk, throw around the ‘white man’ stuff as if it is a burden to be ashamed of.
make no bones about it, japan civilized korea – introduced infrastructure, medicine that was actually effective – good god man, how much does korea owe to japan? you are blinded by hatred, and as a south african that grew up during apartheid, i know blind unjustified hatred when i see it.
korea needs a truth and reconciliation commission, but you guys quite clearly don’t want that; and that is why you fail.
Gbevers, as for the Mongol invasion of Japan, Kublai Khan and the rest of the Mongols weren’t about to hear no from any of their colonies….and the consequences if they were were well-known. His father, Genghis Khan, and the Mongols brought a whole new meaning to the phrase “rape, pillage, and plunder.” Koreans or anyone conquered by the Mongols really had no choice in the matter.
And what nonsense is this that Koreans welcomed the Japanese colonization?? My own family lived under it and never ONCE did any of my family members welcome it. Where do you get your information??? And don’t say Bruce Cumings, the guy who once said that the US and South Korea started the Korean War by invading North Korea. Furthermore, WHAT source, either controversial or otherwise, said Pres. Teddy Roosevelt wanted Japan to colonize Korea???
Matt made NO good points.
Gbevers, read my #47. Japan’s taking of Liancourt Rocks was indeed part of a pattern of aggression by Japan that began in 1894 and finally ended in 1945.
This thread has fast degenerated into the levels of a typical one found on AF. Not too surprising, considering certain cast members.
A lot of things can be said about what the double-headed beast of occidentalism has claimed so far, but I’m just going to do what Koreans should do whenever Dokdo is brought up by the Japanese equivalent of Hicksville, West Virgina.
*Yawn* What else is on?
Speaking of, what does Tsushima actually look like? Any interesting sites or natural assets that can attract tourism?
I have been there five or six times – it is very beautiful – mostly small forest covered mountains/hills. The trees are huge! Last time I was there I think the wild boar and deer population out-numbered the humans. A lot of Koreans go there to fish (and I believe hunt). I remember the first time I went I was really surprised to see the Korean flag flying along side the Japanese flag at the airport. The main city has two canals – the main canal has colored glass murals of the Korean envoys to Japan during the Choson era. I know that just before the Tsushima Battle’s 100th anniversary – I went there and met with some of the organizers for the event and they were very surprised when I pointed out that some of the murals had been damaged (intentional or by accident – perhaps a drunk driver). At that time Tokdo was dominant in the news (as it always seems to be). Instead of going to Fukouka you might want to consider going to Tsushima (Daemado) – it is quiet with a lot of great hiking.
kangnam, you talk as if the Japanese invented that western infra and medicine.
I mean, the Japanese are very reluctant to credit the Koreans for passing on originally Chinese infra, culture, meds, weapons, techs,
I just laugh out loud when a white South African who is fleeing his country after the end of apartheid, claims to understand racial tolerance better than anyone.
Regarding South Africa, it seems the Blacks and Whites have been quite vicious to each other, passing on HIV intentionally and what not. You know, the news the world wants to be shielded from.
as far as I know, despite your claims of South Korea being the new Nazi state, while totally ignoring the true modern Nazi state of China, I seriously know of no ethnic conflicts within Korea that rivaled what other races around the world and neighboring Korea have done.
actually, the Kim family up north may qualify.
I implore all men bearing the Kim name to make chastity vows.
Kims in Korean history have historically overemphasized their deeds and importance. We have Kim Yoo Shin and Kim Choon Chu, who are responsible for the loss of Manchuria, for their own selfish reasons. We have Kim Yong Sam, who accomplished very little, and brought much sorrow. We have Kim Dae Jung, who is full of himself, declaring “historic” North and South communication. We have Kim Il Sung and Kim Jung Il, the prime examples and justifications for which the men of Kim lineage must make chastity vows.
one day, I ran into a site for Andong Kims.
they were so full of themselves, to be concise.
Andong Kims are one of the prime reasons why Joseon was such a shitty country.
Another reason why Goryo was such a shitty country was due to the larger Kim clan as well.
Gan-shins, looking out for themselves.
If you’re not willed enough for a chastity vow, then get a vasectomy.
“Chinese don’t cover themselves from head to toe with bees, eat flags, hammer at pheasants, or do other crazy attention-grabbing stunts like Korean demonstrators”
No, Chinese only burn, loot, and attack Japanese restaurants, stores, Japanese soccer teams and their fans, and even cars.
http://www.youtube.comwatch?v=icqjN6sQtxQ
They also boo and throw garbage at Japanese soccer teams who had the nerve to bow to the Chinese fans in a gesture of friendliness.
They are so rational that they even went on a world rioting tour when the Tibet flag shit hit the fan. Including the one in Seoul where they went on a rampage through the entire city.
“make no bones about it, japan civilized korea – introduced infrastructure, medicine that was actually effective – good god man, how much does korea owe to japan?”
Kangnamdragon, China has been the biggest receipient of Japanese aid, bar none. The aid volume from Japan to China over the past 28 years amounts to 57 billion US dollars. 57 billion!!
So where is this Chinese bowing groveling gratitude toward Japan, that you expect from Korea?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Db4vorG0ug
Correction to #77: Genghis Khan was the GRANDfather of Kublai Khan.
#53,
This isn’t the 17th century.
#76,
‘Modernized’? That’s an overly simplistic and somewhat dishonest way of putting things. What Japan did was set up an infrastructure that allowed it to better exploit Korea’s natural resources and control the general population. It was for the sole benefit of Japan.
Besides, Korea’s king had already begun steering the country away from a mainly agrarian economy and had begun investing in the local infrastructure.
“This isn’t the 17th century.”
Of course it’s not… you obviously missed my point.
The analogy would be more accurate if one acknowledged that Japan had been removing sovereignty cards from the house of Yi for years before finally knocking it down.
The entire city? I wouldn’t call the areas around Olympic Park and Doksugung “the entire city.”
The Chinese, like any nationality, are capable of mob violence, but their public protests lack the originality of Korea’s professional demonstrators.
lady, what you’re saying is pure nonsense.
why don’t you just say the Koreans are creative?
JK #60
“Yo Matt, ever heard of the Hideyoshi invasion of Korea? Then, as WangKon said, Tokugawa, who took over Japan after Hideyoshi, promised Korea that Japan would never invade again. Well, we know how THAT promise turned out.”
Tell me how it turned out. I am 99% sure that you know nothing about history of Korea.
Drawing and quartering live pigs, slaughtering pheasants, and chopping their fingers, kidnapping American Soldiers (who are protecting their country)… this is the “nonsense” that sonagi is talking about, and what you want to use as a basis to praise the creativity of Koreans?
I don’t think the majority of the Korean people appreciate being characterized by these jackasses’ actions.
WJK,
holding that true, it would be preferred if that creative assets are directed to something more… productive. Like alternative fuel, economic/education reform, and the sort.
As opposed to brutally killing [insert animals] or burning people. Or flags.
Tsushima is really beautiful, the numerous islets between the two main parts of the island group almost have a “halong bay” feel.
as it’s japan, people in Korea do not really think about it for a week end trip, but I believe it should definitely be on your list, alongside Busan, Ulleungdo, gyeongju or jejudo.
it’s not that complicated to get to from Seoul (KTX to Busan early morning, then ferry). doable on a week end, although probably a bit short, 3 days is probably ideal.
what’s also interesting is that most people who visit Japan from Korea go to Tokyo (or other big cities), but Tsushima has a real countryside feel to it, very unique.
92 was meant as a response to bigotboy in 90.
This blog is making me want to take a year off after college and just travel.
I’ll never try Ulleungdo though… I don’t think I can handle the infamous boat ride that my parents told me about.
Perhaps its time for Japan to rethink its visa free policy for Koreans.
# 97,
Makes absolutely no sense. Why restrict 10′s of thousands who come to Japan to do business… spend money… for a few dozen crazy nationalists.
Matt and Beavers,
Do you guys get some kind of stipend from the Japanese uber-Nationalist right for all the work you put in on their behalf, or do you just lack sex lives?
@99
Both.
“Korea folded like a house of cards and Japan picked up the pieces. This is a pretty unique event in human history and deserves further study.”
That one statement lost a lot of credibility with me…
Matt, yes the annexation of Korea went quite smoothly.
Here’s why.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/japan-korea-treaty3.jpg
I can’t believe there are still people out there who still deny Japan’s annexation of Liancourt Rocks was not an act of “aggression” The same naval personnel who put up military watchtowers on Ulluengdo, Jukpyeon Ulsan etc were the people who surveyed the islets for telegraph stations only months before the islets were annexed. This was all done during the largest war of the day, while Japan fought for exclusive control over Korea.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-x-files2.html
Territorial acquisitions must be both natural, peaceful, open and public. Japan’s annexation of Liancourt Rocks was none of the above.
@39 Shackahoochie
Very ironic that the biggest bendover for Japan Shackahoochie with his “Japan can do no wrong, they are the imperial race” blog (which regularly features negative diatribes on Korea) is making such a hypocritical claim about RK, who regularly criticizes Korea and says positive things about Japan, in addition to the opposite, on his blog. I heard from cmm that “The Hole” was even blocked by the Korean government at one time.
@50/54
Yeah, let’s set the historical record right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre#Atrocities_begin
“Territorial acquisitions must be both natural, peaceful, open and public.”
Really? Should America give California back?
Shak’s overblown nationalism is amazing.
Lets go back to history. The reason why and the sole reason why Japan has any military history is because it was the first country to crumble to European imperialism.
Korea did not crumble to Japan either. The Korea-Japanese war lasted nearly 20 years before they were able to officially annex the country.
You want to talk about crumbling? Japan practically begged the Americans for mercy, some 30 years before we signed a treaty with the US. In terms of tech Japan and Korea were both equal and the US being vastly superior, but WE made an effort.
What really sickens me is that this little bump in history actually makes the Japanese some kind of military country. Prior to the industrial age, Japan fought 1 war. That was with Korea and they lost. That is almost the most pathetic war record among the OECD countries.
On the other hand we’ve fought a dozen wars with Chinese dynasties yet today, the super geeks are somehow the strong minded people.
Japan had the edge by being America’s little bitches since 1850.
@74 gbeaver
Sakuhachi is right. Korea’s annexation of Korea went pretty smoothly, and that was because many Koreans wanted it…Japan was seen by many Koreans as the only country that could save Korea from herself.
Just like in Japanese rape pr0n, where women secretly want and like it:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/02/world/main571280.shtml
Its amazing how a topic regarding Japan pops up and all of a sudden there are a gazillion of them here. Any other topic and they become Americans in Japan.
many years ago, readers at the Hole crowned me the Japanese porn expert.
Lacking the qualifications to justify that crown, I merely stated that I had seen Japanese porn, and was turned off by what appeared to be rape-themes.
The Japanese and the Japanophiles who support them claimed vigorously that wjk is merely picking up “rare” genres in Japanese porn, and that wjk is a secret lover of Japanese porn.
again, I politely denied the charge, and in all honesty, I found that my erection sort of disappeared, knowing that the girl was being forced, and I kind of found the whole affair rather ugly.
Still, readers at the Hole, insisted that I was the Japanese porn king.
well, false accusations are nothing new.
but, this is fresh, and worthy of notice.
20% is quite high.
and justifies my statement at the time.
I am ready, however, to be your king in all other affairs.
“Tokugawa, who took over Japan after Hideyoshi, promised Korea that Japan would never invade again. Well, we know how THAT promise turned out.”
Like he and his sons kept that promise for about 300 years and the promise was broken only after Tokugawa Shogunate being overthrown in 1868?
“I don’t see how you could see Japan’s aggressive moves against Formosa in 1895, Japan’s aggressive moves against the island of Sakhalin Island in 1905″
Japan had no aggressive moves against Formosa in 1895,nor Sakhalin island in 1905.Japan’s interest was purely in Korean peninsula,that’s why there were no battle around the said two island in both Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese war
These two islands became part of the deal in Shimonoseki Treaty and Potrmouth Treaty almost by accident.
“Japan’s aggressive moves against Siberia in 1918 (which were finally thwarted by the Western Powers)”
Japanese Siberian expedition was organized mostly by the pressure from the U.S and Britain to Japan to contribute in counter-revolution in Siberia.
“The Western Powers” may had the second thought after Japan being enthusiastic about expanding the occupied area,but eventually Tokyo pulled it’s troops voluntarily.
“Perhaps, but in Japan I could take whatever stance I want, including the stance that Takeshima belongs to Korea, without jeopardizing my relationships with Japanese people. You couldn’t say that Dokdo is Japanese land in Korea. ”
Shakuhachi is right on this.
The most prominent supporter of Korean claim on Dokdo is the professor of Shimane prefectural university.And Asahi Shimbun’s current chief of commentary write an op-ed mentioning of dropping the Japanese claim on Takeshima in 2005.
“Koreans or anyone conquered by the Mongols really had no choice in the matter.
“Korea has no history of aggression toward Japan.”
The first Mongolian expediton to Japan
was conducted because of the countless requests from Chungnyeol of Goryeo,it wasn’t even Khblai’s idea at first.
and Joseon invaded Tsushima in 1419.
@105
I suppose if Californians want to go back, we could give them back. It might have been easier had they not petitioned for statehood in the first place. Should we give California back to the California Republic, Mexico, Spain, or divide it up amongst various Native American tribes?
So wait, I’m confused… Was Japan the ever-aggressive power that ransacked Korea on multiple occasions (like I learned from the Independence Hall in Chonan) or was Japan the pussy of the OECD, that only fought 1 war (ignoring the multitude of wars and rebellions fought for and amongst the Japanese islands) before the modern age? Was Korea the eternally down-trodden country that was raped and pillaged by successions of Mongols, Japanese, Jurchens, Manchus, and Chinese, or the plucky little-nation-that-could that fought off all these threats to rise gloriously from the ashes of foreign aggression? I’m having trouble picking which over-simplified (and simple-minded) nationalist myth to believe in. Please help.
@113
The answer is “Yes.”
You are doing all right.Zonath.
Problem is both schoosl of thought are correct up to certain point.
@103 I think I was talking about Metro’s blog… but I’m not sure if it was determined that it was targeted directly or if it was the victim of a domain-wide block.
Whoah Aceface… got a number of holes there.
“Like he and his sons kept that promise for about 300 years and the promise was broken only after Tokugawa Shogunate being overthrown in 1868?”
Which only means that Matt’s promise back in #50 is worth even less than the Tokugawa Bafuku’s. Japan will invade Korea again when it deems it advantages to their perceived national goals, not any different from the 16th or 20th centuries.
“The first Mongolian expediton to Japan
was conducted because of the countless requests from Chungnyeol of Goryeo,it wasn’t even Khblai’s idea at first and Joseon invaded Tsushima in 1419.”
I don’t know… I’m going through my copy of “Wind and Waves” by the famous Japanese scholar Yasushi Inoue and he makes no mention of Chungnyeol (then Crown Prince Sim) being a cheerleader for the invasions. Yasushi says that it was Kublai’s idea. King Wonjong even tried to warn the Kamakura shogunate to be more accommodating towards Mongol envoys. If you think about it, Mongol’s first invasion of Japan was in 1274. According to the Koryo Sa, Koryo ship construction for the first invasion started in January 15th 1274 and Crown Prince Sim wasn’t enthroned until August 26th, 1274.
Chosun invaded Tsushima to suppress pirate raids. They left once they believed their job was done (although their job wasn’t anywhere near done if you think about it).
“I don’t know… I’m going through my copy of “Wind and Waves” by the famous Japanese scholar Yasushi Inoue and he makes no mention of Chungnyeol (then Crown Prince Sim) being a cheerleader for the invasions. ”
Yasushi Inoue is a novelist, not a scholar.
Please don’t base your arguments on fiction.
“Which only means that Matt’s promise back in #50 is worth even less than the Tokugawa Bafuku’s. Japan will invade Korea again when it deems it advantages to their perceived national goals, not any different from the 16th or 20th centuries.”
And what “advantage” would have the invasion of Korea, from a contemporary Japanesee view point?
A special coupon to purchase oil in the middle east perhaps? Comeon.
It is not the age of Imperialism anymore, nor the age of feudalistic Samurai’s.
#119
The Japanese as a race are prone to expansionism. OTOH, Koreans are immune from the poisons of extreme nationalism.
That’s the underlying belief, I guess.
“Which only means that Matt’s promise back in #50 is worth even less than the Tokugawa Bafuku’s. ”
Is it?
Not like “the political agreement with one Japanese polity lasts long as it stays onto power and being replaced by another”?
Anyway,it’s far more reliable than any agreement with Korean polity that can not survive even for one administration.
“Japan will invade Korea again when it deems it advantages to their perceived national goals, not any different from the 16th or 20th centuries.
Let me just simply point you that there are big differences in our world since those days.
“I don’t know… I’m going through my copy of “Wind and Waves” by the famous Japanese scholar Yasushi Inoue and he makes no mention of Chungnyeol (then Crown Prince Sim) being a cheerleader for the invasions. ”
Inoue Yasushi is a novelist,not an academic.
Try some other source,like The History of Yuan.
“Chosun invaded Tsushima to suppress pirate raids.”
That’s still an “agression”,No?
Anyway that “visit”by the Chosun troops is the reason why these Korean dudes are claiming Daemado as Korean territory just like late Syngmang Rhee and some members of GNP.And municipal assembly of Masan making “The Daemado Day”.
Back to the topic of this thread, which is now littered with silly comments, does Korea have any evidence to claim that Tsushima was once Korean territory? Can anyone give even one piece of solid evidence?
As far as I know, Korea’s claim on Tsushima, just like her claim on Liancourt Rocks, has no historical evidence to back it up.
Bevers:
I believe the claim stems from the acceptance by the Lord of Tsushima of the seals conferred on him by the Korean Court as his warrant to conduct limited trade with Korea as a putative tributary.
I don’t believe this sort of claim is even colorable, let alone credible. Among other things, like many of the Korean claims re the Seal Shit Rocks, it’s hopelessly anachronistic, insofar – in the case of Tsushima – as it attempts to import into the interpretation of an East Asian tributary relationship within the so-called Sinitic World Order ideas of territorial sovereignty that are foreign to it either geographically or temporally or both.
Korean invocation of this sort of claim is also typically short-sighted. Because, of course, if Tsushima were held to belong to Korea because of the putative tributary relationship of the Lords of Tsushima to the Korean monarchy, then all of Korea would belong to China.
It’s not implausible that some Koreans probably welcomed the Japanese occupation for modernizing their nation and granting opportunities in exchange for submission. If my great – grandfather adopted a Japansese name and worked as a translator of the imperial army so he can feed his family, I wouldn’t call him a ‘traitor’. Why? At worst, he was misled by the Japanese who convinced him that Japan was introducing his backwards nation to newer heights. Any Korean disillusioned with their impoverished conditions and incompetent leaders must have been easy prey for the Japanese propaganda. If I was a Japanese officer of the time I would duly remind the Korean audience of their kings abandoning them during foreign invasions and how only the members of the elite class were ever allowed to do anything significant in life.
Alrighty then, Mr. Bevers, but before I introduce a point that I have not thus far read in your scholarship, I believe that I did introduce a valid point earlier (albeit in a course manner) regarding Matt’s usage of sources from the Korean right. This has been adequately covered by the Metropolitician who blogged about his before and during Japanese colonization photo montage. It’s pretty hard to believe that given a number of both your assertions (Japanese benevolence during occupation, taking a pro-Japanese bent on the comfort women issue, et. al.) neither of you are doing the work of the Japanese ultra-nationalist right. At the very least you are bedfellows or intellectual fellow-travelers.
But I digress. From my understanding of international law, precedents exist where de jure control over a lengthy period confers ownership, or at least can be used as a basis thereof. Given that Korea has held this for over 50 years the Japanese have got little chance of taking back the rocks, save by force. All the history in the world will not change what has been standard practice and will continue to be into the forseeable future.
Finally, what of the other Japanese disputes to the North, such as the Kuril Islands and even Sakhalin? Why do you not pour yourselves into those issues as much as this one, which at the end of the day, is of very little consequence to Japan?
Can anyone answer this: if the Korean claims are nearly as strong as maintained, then why are they unwilling to take it to an international arbitrator?
Most reasonable people would agree that Korea should hold off any claims to Tsushima Island until they are either able to prove their clains to Dokdo.
The bottom line is that bald assertion does not constitute proof, and as it now stands, Korea has so far been unable or unwilling to show that they are not illegally occupying the Liancourt Rocks.
Gbevers. There is plenty of evidence supporting Korea’s claim to Liancourt Rocks.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-takeshima-incident.html
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-anyongbok-2.html
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-professor-hosaka.html
There is also plenty of data that the Japanese consistently excluded the islets from Japan. I can show you upwards of 70 historical maps proving Japan did not consider the islets part of Japan. And I can’t think of one Japanese record pre 1905 that can be said to be proof of Japanese title.
Aaronm (#125),
I do not know what you are talking about in regard to Matt and Metropolitician, but since you admit that its a digression, let’s just skip it and go on to the issue of Korea’s 50-year occupation of Liancourt Rocks.
I am not really interested in what international law has to say about the ownership of Liancourt Rocks since I am more interested in the historical claims, but from what little I know about international law, the fact that Japan regularly protests Korea’s occupation of rocks helps negate Korea’s claim to them in that regard. That is most likely the main reason Koreans go apeshit every time Japan reasserts her claim. However, Japan has little choice but to occasionally reassure her claim on the rocks if she wants to maintain her legal standing in the dispute.
I am not interested in other Japanese disputes, and I would not be very good at researching them, anyway, since I do not speak or read Japanese.
As for the consequence of my “research,” I have, at least, got you asking questions, and I think I have started other people asking questions, as well, especially in Japan. However, I research the issue because I enjoy it. Some people enjoy taking pictures of old buildings; I enjoy studying old Korean documents and maps related to “Dokdo.” Is that so difficult to understand?
Anyway, now that we are talking, could you do me a favor and change your avatar to something else because it is almost as upsetting as the one used by “Blueballs,” or whatever his name is.
“Can anyone answer this: if the Korean claims are nearly as strong as maintained, then why are they unwilling to take it to an international arbitrator?”
It’s the same reason why Japan won’t go to the international court to fight for the disputed territory of Tsushima/Daemado.
Maybe Japan should, they may win that case since:
#1 They already have their own citizens inhabiting the island.
#2 International court has a Japanese judge, whereas Korea has none.
#3 Japan is one of the countries that heavily funds the court.
Frogmouth (Steve Barber),
We have refuted all your silly claims on my Dokdo/Takeshims blog, so stop pretending like you are addressing me when you post your links.
Do you have anything to say on Tsushima?
Aceface (#121),
HERE is a link to a 1426 record in the Annals of King Sejong that talks about the fears of Korea’s Ministry of Defense (兵曹 – 병조) in regard to Koreans running away to Daemado (Tsushima) and giving the secret of gunpowder to the Japanese. 1426 was after Korea’s raid on Tsushima, so I think this is more evidence that Tsushima was not recognized as Korean territory.
CM,
And didn’t Korea go in the 1950s, when asked, when Japan had zero influence in the International Court?
Correction:
CM,
Why didn’t Korea go in the 1950s, when asked, when Japan had zero influence in the International Court?
gbevers @128:
You claim you want to know about “historical” claims. Well, HISTORICALLY, Dokdo belonged to Korea for the last 50 years.
Historically, Korea belonged to Japan from 1910-1945. Historically, Dokdo belonged to Japan from 1906-1945. Historically, Sakhalin belonged to Japan from 1905-1945. Historically, Formosa belonged to Japan from 1894-1945. Historically, the Philippines, Hong Kong, Malaysia, and the Dutch East Indies belonged to Japan from 1941-1945.
So based on this spotty HISTORY of taking other countries’ territory, I think Japan is gonna be hard-pressed to make a claim on the Dokdo rocks even if it DID have a good historical claim to it prior to 1905, which, from reading your shoddy arguments, it doesn’t.
But if it makes you feel like you are getting your shots in on Koreans for some perceived snub you got during your several-decade stay in Korea, then by all means keep up your Dokdo “studies” with your supposedly objective” analysis. No skin off my back…but it DID cost you a job.
“We have refuted all your silly claims on my Dokdo/Takeshims blog, so stop pretending like you are addressing me when you post your links.”
You have? I don’t think so, gbevers.
Gbevers (Gerry Bevers) whose pretending?
You’ve refuted jack. All I’ve seen are highly questionable translations and regurgitated publications from Professor Shimojo, Shimane Prefecture and Japan’s MOFA. In all the articles posted I haven’t seen one shred of data that supports Japan’s claim but rather shots at the Korea’s.
Your blog started out as a good idea, Gerry, but when you started letting Japanese lobbyists from the right wing lunatic fringe repost every piece of garbage that Japan’s MOFA tossed out, something went terribly wrong.
aaronm, Gerry bevers posts about Dokdo because he knows it is an issue close to Koreans’ hearts and it upsets them. It is his personal ‘rage against the machine’ I suppose. Before Dokdo Gerry would rant about other issues of contention on Korean newspapers never once siding with Korea.
I am pretty disappointed with your comment. It is not up to your usual quality.
@135: What’s your motivation then? You’re as obsessed as Gerry is.
When I see two white guys proxy arguing over arcane historical disputes between small nations halfway around the world I wonder first, what dog do they have in this fight? and second, are they mentally ill?
“aaronm, Gerry bevers posts about Dokdo because he knows it is an issue close to Koreans’ hearts and it upsets them. It is his personal ‘rage against the machine’ I suppose. Before Dokdo Gerry would rant about other issues of contention on Korean newspapers never once siding with Korea.”
EXACTLY! He’s been doing this for the last 9 years online, and God knows how long OFFline. Whether the sensitive issue is the Japanese colonization of Korea (Gbevers will say that Koreans welcomed it and that it was good for Korea), the Korean comfort women (Gbevers will say that they were prostitutes willingly serving the Japanese Empire), or Dokdo (Gbevers will present his so-called “evidence” and then also present his generalizing negative opinions about the entire Korean people with remarks like “The problem is that Koreans are liars”), Gbevers is guaranteed to take his shots at Korea by discussing its most sensitive issues and siding against Korea; it’s like a proxy where he can sort of “get back” at Korea for God knows what crime it committed against him. Kinda sad that he chooses to live there; but then again where else can he live?
WangKon936, whatever you may think, Korea’s collapse was quite extraordinary. Since Korea was a country with a national identity (different to the places colonized by the Europeans) it makes what happened to Korea quite unique.
Really, I would like you to make the case for what the Japanese did as being an “invasion”. You often here about how the Japanese “invaded” Korea but how many troops were stationed in Korea initially? Was it around 5000? Where were the battles, the declaration of war ect? It never happened.
That is why what happened in Korea is unique in history, and the reason why Koreans say “never again”.
“WangKon936, whatever you may think, Korea’s collapse was quite extraordinary. Since Korea was a country with a national identity (different to the places colonized by the Europeans) it makes what happened to Korea quite unique….Really, I would like you to make the case for what the Japanese did as being an ‘invasion.’”
Well, it was as much an “invasion” as was the USSR’s takeover of Hungary, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Poland, and the rest of eastern Europe in 1945: In other words, these countries were so weak that they had no chance against Stalin’s Soviet Union, which is why the USSR didn’t have to fight the people of these country when it took them over. It still didn’t make it right, Matt.
Oh yeah, and btw, when two of the countries protested Soviet control, Hungary in 1956 and Czecholovakia in 1968, the USSR reacted brutally with military force. But according to someone like Gbevers, the other countries like Poland and Bulgaria who DIDN’T fight back against the USSR were really welcoming Soviet control with open arms. *rolling eyes*
If Koreans were so steadfastly opposed to Japanese colonization, why is there so much fuss nowadays about all the collaborators?
“Anyway, now that we are talking, could you do me a favor and change your avatar to something else because it is almost as upsetting as the one used by “Blueballs,” or whatever his name is.”
Did Mr. Bevers just ask someone to stop expressing himself a certain way because he found it “upsetting?”
Well, I guess that’s OK. After all, he’s not trying to get aaronm fired for having an unpopular avatar.
Countries that don’t ‘have’ one of their own citizens on the ICJ bench in a case are customarily allowed to appoint a judge ad hoc in order to hear that one case. Plus, if we go by the skewed reasoning that a judge on the court will always vote with the han of their country, we could expect the Chinese judge to vote against Japan in any proceeding in which Japan was a party, giving SK a one-judge advantage, just on the basis of nationalist bigotry.
Keeping in mind, of course, that if the existence of collaboration is enough of evidence to conclude that the act of aggression was welcomed by the receiving party, then pretty much every single acts of invasion, takeover, annexation, colonization, and so on have been received with welcoming arms.
Native Americans? Why are they crying about it? They collaborated
(continuing on from 144, since I accidentally hit the post button)
!
Revolutionary War? Oh come on! Americans didn’t even wanted to be free. It was just Washington and couple of his friends. There were Loyalists!
Vietnam War? Atrocity my ass! There were SOUTH Vietnamese!
Now I just have to wait for someone to go “Oh it’s a ridiculous comparison!” even though it’s not a comparison and more in the line of hypothetical conclusions based on the premise ‘existence of collaborators = welcome, foreign invaders!’
Things are getting heated. Rob, where are the timely NSFW pics to diffuse the situation?
136. Sack.”I am pretty disappointed with your comment. It is not up to your usual quality.”
Well bugger me dead and call me Mary. Your blogging is only really entertaining for its inflamatory qualities, truth be known. Keep it up.
@135:
Well, what can you expect from a guy (an American guy no less) who essentially blamed America for the bombing of Pearl Harbor? Whatever evidence you show, he won’t believe anything that goes against anything Japanese.
What? He blames America for the attack on Pearl? Is this true?
Who does??
This is the world as Japan saw it in the 19th Century polical cartoon. The countries are depicted as dolls. Can guess which doll is Korea?
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/maru-maru.jpg
Matt is right. Japan had every right to invade to Korea to fight evil Russia.
Besides didn’t everyone here know it? God said Japan could, I’ve got proof right here.
http://dokdo-takeshima.com/1904-war-dec.jpg
I claim all Korea as USA territory.
“The countries are depicted as dolls. Can guess which doll is Korea?”
No, but this is so fascinating. Thank you so much for your research.
hehehe…Ghost of Tiny RULEZ!
@149: If you care to, check out “shakuhachi’s” site. Don’t remember exactly where/when it was. But I’m sure dogbert can tell you something about it cuz I remember him objecting to Gerry’s comments.
@150: Who else but our beloved “Takeshima is Japanese land” spokesman Gerry Bevers?
Hey, Australian Japanophile obsessed with Korea,
what do you think the Russo-Japanese and the 1st Sino-Japanese war were about? At least the SJ war had directly to do with controlling Korea.
Which army came in to Korea, to aid the Korean court, in suppressing a peasant rebellion on the level of the French Revolution? The Japanese army, with gunboats, cannons, and rifle brigades.
Tell me, what major battles have the Afghans fought in recent history against the International force, to stop the “invasion”?
Korea’s armed forces at 1880s pretty much as dismal as Afghan national army in 2002-2003.
The greater Kim clan extracted from Korea, isolated Korea, and took so much power from the king of Korea, so that the king literally had nothing to pay his soldiers. Thus, the humiliating appeals to Russia, China, and Japan to suppress a civilian coup d’etat.
Can you imagine Lee Myung Bak asking USFK to suppress the demonstrators, because literally he didn’t have the numbers in the Korean police and army to do it himself? That was Josen Korea, fucked up to the max, by the greater Kim clan, who pretty much did the same to the Goryo kingdom, which had little or no power in the king, after the 3rd or 4th generation.
And, shakuhachi, fuck you, ass hole.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9406EFD81639F932A25750C0A9649C8B63
Speaking of the culture and technology brought to Japan via Tsushima, Emperor Akihito said that ”it contributed greatly to Japan’s subsequent development.” Then, he added, ”I, on my part, feel a certain kinship with Korea,” and went on to cite an ancient chronicle that says the grandmother of his eighth-century imperial ancestor, Kammu, was from a Korean kingdom.
how many soldiers did the British empire need to conquer millions of Indians?
Not a lot.
Fuck you, ass hole.
@154: I vaguely remember that. It might be worth digging up for reference.
@155: You are a Gundam fetishist, so have little credibility.
@52:
And I’m sure you know people aside from the guys in your Occidentalism bubble don’t hold your opinions in the highest regard either, right?
@158,
what the hell is a Gundam fetishist?
Try not to act like a complete geek, I know its hard but give it a shot.
# 154,
Yeah, did a little digging too. Not much, but a little.
It appear that Gerry also believes that U.S. fire bombing of Japanese cities was a war crime and an act of terrorism too.
From my casual observation, it appears there’s a pattern to Mr. Bever’s views following the simple formula of…
Japanese views = generally true
Korean views = always wrong
Don’t know what to make of it yet. However, it’s hard to take people who have such static worldviews seriously, no matter how factual and intellectual they sound online.
Perhaps he had a Mr. Miyagi figure early in his life who helped him fight off bullies in high school, hence is static Japan favoring bent. Dunno…
@161:
I’ll look for it. It was mentioned somewhere in the comments section but I don’t exactly remember what the main article was about.
The possibility of a Mr. Miyagi figure sounds intriguing. You may be onto something there
Miyagi was Okinawan, in fiction or real life, I’m not sure. About 200 years of being a “Japanese citizen”.
I have a lot of credibility. I am honest.
Wow… if anyone had 200 years of being a citizen of any country, I’d take his view seriously. After all, he’s lived for at least 200 years.
“Yeah, did a little digging too. Not much, but a little.”
In the post you mentioned about U.S. fire bombing Japanese cities, he wrote this:I am not saying that the Japanese were nice during World War II, but I do not think they were as bad as people were made to believe. Besides, the allies were not that nice, either.
That didn’t work right.
“Yeah, did a little digging too. Not much, but a little.”
In the post you mentioned about U.S. fire bombing Japanese cities, he wrote this:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/05/21/why-i-have-difficulty-calling-japanese-to-account-exhibit-c/#comment-36034
I don’t think it’s so bad to have someone challenging the historical status quo. It keeps everyone honest.
Wanggon (#161),
The firebombings of Japanese cities were intended to terrorize and demoralize. Do historians deny this? Even the American officer who was the architect of the bombing strategy admits that he would have probably been tried as a war criminal if the Allies had lost the war.
As for Pearl Harbor, why don’t you do a little more digging and find my quote because I do not remember exactly what I said, but I think it is pretty well know that President Roosevelt wanted to get the US into the war and was doing things to provoke Japan, besides just the oil embargo.
Check out THIS SITE and believe what you want.
Anyway, what does this have to do with Tsushima or Liancourt Rocks? Do you have anything to say on either of them?
“Inoue Yasushi is a novelist,not an academic. Try some other source,like The History of Yuan.”
Aceface, do you mean the recently discovered “Secret” history of the Mongols? Inoue is famous for being a historical novelist, and adding drama and color to the original historical texts. Given that “Wind & Waves” was a story centric on Koryo, he used the Koryo Sa a lot.
Any ways, it’s pretty clear from Koryo and Chinese sources that the invasions the original idea to invade Japan was Kublai’s. Yuan sources may very well say that it was Chungnyeol’s idea, but Korean and Chinese sources do not say that. Overreliance on just one side of history is a selective and biased on. Furthermore, the idea of invading Japan was mentioned even before Crown Prince Sim (later King Chungnyeol) was even a hostage in Beijing.
Crown Prince Sim’s father, King Wonjong and his ministers did what they could to warn the Kamakura shogunate to be nice to the Mongol envoys. If memory serves me correctly, the Mongol envoys were treated very rudely by the Kamakura and the Hojo regents. Wonjong knew that a war between Japan and the Mongol Empire would be very bad news for Koryo because he knew that Koryo would have to foot most of the bill for it. This was a scenario very unsavory to Wonjong because Koryo, at that time, was very poor from a resource standpoint because it had just survived five invasions over a period of 60 years from the Mongols.
It is remembered in the histories that Crown Prince Sim favored a closer relationship with the Yuan Empire, which Wonjong had opposed. Wonjong was very upset when Prince Sim presented himself, after being a hostage of Yuan, in Mongol dress and hairstyle.
Any ways, although it is clear that Prince Sim had a pro-Yuan bent, the Koryo Sa does make it clear that he didn’t originate or overly push forward the idea of an invasion of Japan. On the contrary, it appears that King Chungnyeol goes along with the invasion plans because it helped Koryo become a “son-in-law” nation. However, given the resource requirements to support an invasion of Japan, it couldn’t have been an easy decision or one that was enthusiastically supported. Koryo supplied 300 ships for the first invasion and 900 ships and over 20k men the second invasion. The Koryo Sa often talked about how the commoner in the fields often went hungry in order for the kingdom to meet the Mongol mandated supply and manpower quotas, given that the countryside hadn’t fully recovered from the 50-60 years of successive Mongol invasions.
Gerry’s not alone in thinking that raining napalm sticks down on densely populated residential areas would qualify as a war crime. The architect of the firebombing, General Curtis Lemay famously remarked, “I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal. Fortunately, we were on the winning side.” He then went on to distinguish himself further in Vietnam with the quote about bombing the North Vietnamese back to the Stone Age.
Your bias in this matter is laughable. Nothing Japan ever did in Korea even approaches 1% of the misery and human destruction of the firebombings. If Japan had firebombed Korea you would be screaming about war crimes. Firebombing of civilian populations is a war crime no matter who does it, and yes, it is designed to terrorize the enemy into submission. It is an effective tactic. Trying to find info about Gerry in an attempt to brand him an unpatriotic American is quite disgusting.
“That’s still an “agression”,No?”
Uh… well, Tsushima was a base for very aggressive Japanese pirate activity in both Korea and China. Chosun’s goal was to neutralize the pirate base. They repeatedly told the So clan and the Ashikaga Shogunate if they can’t control pirate activity within their declared juristdiction, then Chosun will do it for you. Despite the warnings, there was no meaningful decline in Wako activity, so Chosun made good on their threats.
They came in to eliminate a direct threat to their home country. If you call that aggression, then I guess you’ll have to call the U.S.’s intervention in Afghanistan to evict the Taliban and Al Qaeda aggression too.
Gerry, Japan would have had enough oil for peaceful purposes. It felt it did not have enough for its goal of conquering Asia. How seeking to halt that goal becomes “provocation” I don’t understand.
And any wailing about firebombing, Gerry, should also take into account the unprecedented peaceful U.S. occupation of Japan.
Japan should have realized its war was unwinnable, sued for peace, and forestalled firebombing and nuclear bombing.
Wow, uh, I read over the old link @165 by user-81, and, uh, Gbevers’ extreme words on THAT thread went way beyond even anything I’ve ever thought him capable of. Damn, how brainwashed can a person be?? Gbevers, whew! You need help.
@#171, Wangon:
If pirates were using Tsushima as a base with the blessing of loca authorities, then a better comparison would be US and European military action against the Barbary Pirates of the North African coast, immortalized in the first line of the Marines’ Hymn: “From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli…”
“… I think it is pretty well know that President Roosevelt wanted to get the US into the war and was doing things to provoke Japan, besides just the oil embargo….”
Wow, and here I am, a student of the US public education system, who was taught that the Japanese started the war with the US rather than vice-versa. I guess I’m brainwashed like the entire US population since we don’t see the light like you do, eh Gbevers?
168–If memory serves, the Mongol envoys were beheaded.
# 170,
My intention wasn’t to lable Gerry an unpatriotic American. I was actually under the impression that he was Australian. Although I believe that you are the Australian and it’s Gerry who’s the American.
My intention was to see where Gerry’s viewpoints lay and what their flexibilties (or inflexibilities) may be. Painting Japan as a victim during WWII is revisionistic compared to most of the thinking out there today. And how does it relate to Dokdo/Takeshima? Well, I need to know what Mr. Bever’s viewpoints are on other sensitive Japancentric issues in order to put things into context, no?
Sonagi, what you say is totally true. Ever see that documentery with Robert McNamara? What was it called? Fog of War.. yes. Good ole Rob ran the numbers on the bombings for Lemay and he figured as much too. He also said that had Japan won the war, he (along with Lamey) would of most certainly be considered war criminals. But that didn’t happen (and in my opinion, never had the chance of happening right after Nagumo decided NOT to launch a third wave at Pearl) since Japan didn’t win the war.
Pointing out that firebombing is a war crime does not equate painting Japan as a victim. All sides engaged in civilian bombing to one extent or another, which is why is was not an issue in the war crimes trials (because the allies did it in spades).
It’s ironic that LeMay was awarded with the highest honor in postwar Japan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay
Japan is one of the most trusted U.S. ally now, with negligible anti-Americanism going on.
And China-Japan relations are looking great:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2008-05/12/content_6680167.htm
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-05/04/content_8104901.htm
http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11591458
How’s Korea doing these days?
# 179,
Yep, sure did.
Uh… ‘pretty well known’ is a bit stretching it, since the proposition of ‘FDR knew about the attack’ is treated at the same level as ‘CIA killed JFK’ and ‘Bush planned 9/11′.
However, the firebombing was pretty fucked up. Just like how I think Dresden was fucked up, even though I’m not exactly a ‘yay Nazis’ kind of guy.
But the only thing firebombing proves is that war is horrible, not ‘Allies are evil’. Because for every Tokyo and Dresden, there were Shanghai, Canton, Nanjing, Wuhan, Chonging, London, and Rotterdam. And yes, I totally wikipediaed all this.
“It’s ironic that LeMay was awarded with the highest honor in postwar Japan”
It’s called kissing up to your conquerer for survival’s sake. Another term for it is “brown-nosing.”
#176. Yeah, and up until what 10 years ago, it was still being taught that Chris Columbus discovered America.
There’s been extensive study on that theory (FDR), as well.
To settle this once and for all, all Korea has to do is take this to the court and let them decide in their favor, since they feel that there’s no question that those lands belong to them.
But they refuse, because they’ll lose, and all this protesting, animal finger abuse, and ‘our kids can’t play together anymore’ is what makes them look like absolute idiots.
WangKon (#170),
I am not trying to paint Japan as the victim in World War II. My main assertion is that Koreans were not as victimized by the Japanese during the colonial period as they would like the world to believe.
Koreans would like the world to forget that they were on Japan’s side during the wars in China and the Pacific, so they try very hard to paint themselves as having also been victims of the Japanese, but I do not think life in colonial Korea was the hell that Koreans want people to believe.
Read a Korean history book and try to find the instances of rape and murder committed by colonial authorities. You will find that there is a conspicuous lack of it. That is why Koreans focus on claims of the Japanese trying to destroy Korean culture by making them change their names and learn Japanese, but even those claims are exaggerated or half-truths.
After Korean “liberation,” Korean President Rhee Syngman began to vilify the Japanese and the communists as part of a brainwashing campaign that was a great success because even Koreans today hate the Japanese for reasons that they can only explain with vague references to rape, murder, and cultural annihilation.
Anyway, aside from that, let’s stop pretending that the US military did not commit war crimes in World War II.
Interesting, Lana (and have you posted on this blog before?). Through the US public education system, I learned about the Native Americans (known then as American Indians) populating the North American continent, the Vikings, Amerigo Vespucci possibly having “discovered” the New World prior to Columbus (but not likely), etc. so I can say we had a pretty balanced view of who actually “discovered” America.
But this thing about the US the war with Japan….nah, we were never taught that.
Edit: “But this thing about the US STARTING the war with Japan…nah, we were never taught that.
“Koreans would like the world to forget that they were on Japan’s side during the wars in China and the Pacific”
Gerry, I’ve been saying this to you FOR NINE YEARS, but let me do it again here: Koreans (the entire Korean population, Gerry?) were no more “on Japan’s side during the wars” any more than the Chinese in Hong Kong were on the side of the Japanese from 1940-1945 or any more than the Jews, many of whom were forced to work in German weapons armament factories, were on the side of Nazi Germany or any more than African-American slaves forced to serve their white Southern masters were on the side of the Confederacy in the American Civil War. When you are the controlling power with the power to kill and torture or not kill and torture those you control, and they serve you through force….can you call them “allies” or that they fought on the side of the controlling party who is oppressing them?
So what proof do you have that the Korean people (that’s a lot of people, Gerry, so be careful) fought on the side of Japan? None, and you know it.
@189:
“So what proof do you have that the Korean people (that’s a lot of people, Gerry, so be careful) fought on the side of Japan? None, and you know it.”
As you have known Gerry for longer than me, and seeing how he slyly dodged comment #172, I am sure you are aware that you will not get an answer from him with regards to this.
It’s easy to reach Gerry’s conclusion. Few Koreans fought against the annexation. By the end of the war, half of the administrators were Korean. Many Koreans volunteered for the Japanese military and a lot of them were convicted as war criminals. A lot of the comfort women were given over to the brothels by their own Korean relatives. Koreans cheered when word came of Japanese war victories. Koreans helped settle Manchukuo. Koreans even helped in the slaying of Queen Min.
And Korea’s Daemado claim is flimsily irredentist. It’s an eye-poking back at you act and nothing more. Most Koreans don’t really support it.
“To settle this once and for all, all Korea has to do is take this to the court and let them decide in their favor”
The issue of the court is a complex one. First of all there is the issue of presidence. There are two court rulings regarding territory that could be used by Japan to strengthen their claim. I think one of them relates to the Burma Thai border when France (or the Dutch) released claim to it. I forgot what the other one is. Also, I think in the governing body, there is a permanent Japanese presence and France, which definatly has a permanent presence in the International Court is seen as leaning towards Japan. It’s just like the U.S. Supreme Court. It makes little sense to bring cases that will be struck down when the court is right leaning as it is.
I’d like to declare myself officially tired of this topic and cast of characters.
#193
Also, I’m sure the rules on evidence denies that propensity for particular acts proves anything.
slim… I second that. I’m so tired of it, most of my comments on this post don’t even directly relate to the topic at hand.
Will someone PLEASE post boobie pictures???
“A lot of the comfort women were given over to the brothels by their own Korean relatives”
First of all, define “a lot”? One could argue that “a lot” of American parents get their kids to steal money, but if this was limited to a FEW families in a really poor section where crime and drug abuse are rampant, then I think the statement, “a lot of American parents get their kids to steal money” would be wrong in this context and be painting a negative, and inaccurate picture of all Americans.
Keep in mind that according to the testimonies of many comfort women that they were tricked into being a comfort woman, that they thought they were going to work in a factory….and that they may have gotten their parents’ reluctant blessing as a result. To take something like this and say, “A lot of the comfort women were given over to the brothels by their own Korean relatives” would be incorrect in such a context but one commonly used by the Japanophiles and right-wingers.
“Few Koreans fought against the annexation.”
Yeah, and few Hungarians, Bulgarians, Romanians, and Poles fought against the Soviet presence of their countries. What’s your point? Oh yeah, and few Belgians and Dutch fought against the Nazi Germans. So does this mean Belgium and the Netherlands fought on the side of Germany in WWII?
“By the end of the war, half of the administrators were Korean.”
Many of the foreman over the black slave labor force in America were blacks themselves. What is your point? that they supported slavery and thus that all black people were accomplices in the practice of slavery in the US?
“Koreans cheered when word came of Japanese war victories.”
You say “Koreans” implying the whole nation when it was likely just a handful of people. I know my own family members were not “cheering” when word came of Japanese war victories. On the contrary, one of the happiest days of their lives was the surrender of Japan. Be careful with your generalizations, user-81.
I’m sorry, but I’m not buying JK’s line that the Koreans plight was similiar to the groups he mentioned.
Certainly there were many who welcomed the change in order and who took advantage of opportunities that were presented. Korea was neither an antebellum plantation nor an arbeit-macht-frei concentration camp. But I’ve met many Koreans who attempt to portray it that way.
If I were to compare the Koreans to a WWII group it would be along the lines of the Ukranians or Croats (without the massacres); those who allied themselves with the Nazis because they felt that would get a better deal than they were getting with their then overlords.
“I’m sorry, but I’m not buying JK’s line that the Koreans plight was similiar to the groups he mentioned.”
Any why not? I’ve got the true stories of my own family members as well as their friends to support what I am stating; what, besides your skepticism of the Korean character overall do you rely on when making your assertion?
“Korea was neither an antebellum plantation nor an arbeit-macht-frei concentration camp. But I’ve met many Koreans who attempt to portray it that way.”
When a people that lived through an ordeal say they endured some serious hard times and loss of identity and give me details about it, it’s not my first instinct to say they are liars like you seem to be saying even though you didn’t live through it.
“If I were to compare the Koreans to a WWII group it would be along the lines of the Ukranians or Croats (without the massacres); those who allied themselves with the Nazis because they felt that would get a better deal than they were getting with their then overlords.”
You are actually assuming that Koreans even had a say in their country’s annexation. They had about as much say as the Chinese did in Hong Kong and Manchuria under the Japanese occupation or the Malays in what is now Malaysia or the Philipinos in the Philippines. To say that Koreans, the Chinese in Hong Kong and Manchuria, the Malays, and the Philippinos “allied themselves with [the Japanese] because they felt that they would get a better deal than they were getting with their then overlords” is ridiculous on your part. What, besides your own negative bias toward Koreans, makes you say this?
Neither the Ukranians nor Croats had a say in their respective invasions, yet they chose their alligence.
And please, do not compare the Koreans to the Filipinos. While the Filipinos were struggling against the Japanese and aiding the Americans the Koreans were working in the POW camps. Collaborators aren’t heroes.
And no bias agianst Koreans. But I do dislike of the spin many Koreans put on the period of their annexation. They’d be better off acknowledging they were Japan’s Austria. Probably would do them little harm; when’s the last time you heard any anti-Austrian sentiment?
“To settle this once and for all, all Korea has to do is take this to the court and let them decide in their favor”
WangKon: “The issue of the court is a complex one. First of all there is the issue of presidence. There are two court rulings regarding territory that could be used by Japan to strengthen their claim. I think one of them relates to the Burma Thai border when France (or the Dutch) released claim to it. I forgot what the other one is. Also, I think in the governing body, there is a permanent Japanese presence and France, which definatly has a permanent presence in the International Court is seen as leaning towards Japan. It’s just like the U.S. Supreme Court. It makes little sense to bring cases that will be struck down when the court is right leaning as it is.”
No, it’s not complicated. That statement just confirms suspicions that Korea’s claim is weak. If the Korean argument is really so righteous and self-evident, as claimed, then why in the world wouldn’t Korea just take the high road and do the right thing, ie. take the dispute to the International Court. Or else simply admit that it is disputed territory and share the resources, which is the proper thing to do.
There’s no logical explanation except that in Korea’s eyes, there’s a sense of entitlement, greed, anti-Japanese bias and “might makes right.”
The arguments here are ugly and irrelevent – this issue is NOT a referendum on Japan. It’s about what is right under international law and what is ethically proper, period.
A US General imagines himself alive after his country loses a world war? What a pussy. Fight to the death!
Ugh… this thread is so…
http://www.intelligentrecords.com/Comments/WhySoSerious.jpg
“I am not saying that the Japanese were nice during World War II, but I do not think they were as bad as people were made to believe.”
If we knew what happened in the past it wouldn’t be possible to believe.
“I can’t believe there are still people out there who still deny Japan’s annexation of Liancourt Rocks was not an act of “aggression””
Why can’t you believe THAT? People have different ideas about what happened in the past, it’s a common thing. What are we going to do, spend 40 years arguing about why our marriage didn’t work out? Korea HAS the islands…what more do you want?
“I am not saying that the Japanese were nice during World War II…”
Big ass understatment.
“…but I do not think they were as bad as people were made to believe.”
Even if it was just half as bad, that’s still pretty bad and it’s a bit worse than “not nice.”
JK, despite all the cherry-picked “facts” I listed in #191, it’s easy to refute the easy conclusion that some people draw from them. I was giving you the chance to do so. I’m betting on 300 comments unless the comments section gets closed.
@148-150
But don’t forget, we welcomed the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor with open arms. As the Japanese know, all people secretly want to be raped.
This has become a thread of the same points being repeated over and over.
==========
Another note on Japan being a victim of WW2.
R. J. Rummel, a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, states that between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered from nearly 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war. This democide was due to a morally bankrupt political and military strategy, military expediency and custom, and national culture.”[17] According to Rummel, in China alone, during 1937-45, approximately 3.9 million Chinese were killed, mostly civilians, as a direct result of the Japanese operations and 10.2 millions in the course of the war.[18]
The most infamous incident during this period was the Nanking Massacre of 1937-38, when, according to the findings of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, the Japanese Army massacred as many as 200,000 civilians and prisoners of war, although the accepted figure is somewhere in the hundreds of thousands.[19] Similar crime was the Changjiao massacre. In Southeast Asia, the Manila massacre, resulted in the deaths of 100,000 civilians in the Philippines and in the Sook Ching massacre, between 25,000 and 50,000 ethnic Chinese in Singapore were taken to beaches and massacred.
====
Its amazing just to what degree the Japanese lack honor and integrity. To this day they have not apologized for the Asian holocaust, Pacific war, colonization, mass rape of 1 million + women or its support for Hitler’s Nazi Germany.
But they have done a stand up job covering that up with the illusion of the “Samurai” with honor. If anyone did any actual research you’d realize they were house servants.
Just another thing, there is strong DNA evidence that Japan’s imperial line originated from Korea being descendents of the Silla Kingdom. The migration of the imperial line accorded along with the transfer of civilization, buddhism and new agricultural technology in and around the 6th century AD.
In other words, Japan’s been ruled by Koreans since the beginning of civilization. In actuality we made the civilzation now called Japan.
“…but I do not think they were as bad as people were made to believe.”
Even if it was just half as bad, that’s still pretty bad and it’s a bit worse than “not nice.”
“Japanese” is just a word. What the “Japanese” did is what WE did and what WE do.
“Its amazing just to what degree the Japanese lack honor and integrity.”
You would have done the same thing the Japanese soldiers did if you were a Japanese soldier.
“You would have done the same thing the Japanese soldiers did if you were a Japanese soldier.”
Well… from personal accounts, the Japanese navy was rather disgusted with what the Japanese army was known for doing, particularly in China.
However, they did close ranks with the army when foreigners pointed out the brutality.
“In other words, Japan’s been ruled by Koreans since the beginning of civilization. In actuality we made the civilzation now called Japan.”
Oh, didn’t know that. So maybe Japan annexing Korea was just a homecoming.
I don’t think it’s that important that Japanese have Korean dna in them.
What counts is the present time. It will be interesting, though, to do DNA testing on those tombs.
Busan is the place to be, if you want the latest parroting of Japanese stuff from A-Z.
I am almost certain the Japanese aren’t doing the reverse. They did, around AD 500-700, but not now.
The Chinese also claim that Japan was originally populated by a treasure/eternal life elixir hunter, Xu Fu (Chinese: 徐福 ).
It speaks volumes that the Japanese don’t mind being credited with this man’s efforts, but do everything they can to undermine the influences from southern Korea.
One thing that’s interesting, is that Xu Fu was from Northern China, Shandong.
The way Chinese characters is pronounced in Korea and Japan is the Oh-eum, that of southern China, which was documented to have traded with Baekjae, and via Baekjae to Japan.
Of course, the Japanese claim they had a direct hot line to southern China, and then gave culture to west Korea.
The speculated reason of why west Korea traded with southern China, is that Goguryo was fighting northern China, and southern China was fighting northern China.
Only the strong in the present will be recognized.
The Russians could probably claim the Germans were kicked out of their world, east, and east ward. But which German gives a fuck? The Russians are the weaker at present.
west, and west ward
“Just another thing, there is strong DNA evidence that Japan’s imperial line originated from Korea being descendents of the Silla Kingdom.”
All humans have the same root DNA.
“In other words, Japan’s been ruled by Koreans since the beginning of civilization. In actuality we made the civilzation now called Japan.”
Japan and Korea are world place names; they have no special maning. There is one human culture; it eats, it digs holes, it builds, it doesn’t know why it exists, it breeds, it goes to war, it kills itself. The present is what we are and what we know.
“In other words, Japan’s been ruled by Koreans since the beginning of civilization. In actuality we made the civilzation now called Japan.”
So Koreans should be proud they produced the butchers of comment #210. Holly mixed messages, Batman!
“Well… from personal accounts, the Japanese navy was rather disgusted with what the Japanese army was known for doing, particularly in China.”
yeah, it’s human nature. Some like to point out that Koreans took part in the Pearl Harbor attack. Of course a Korea would do that. We all do that. The Koreans saw an opportunity to shift attention to another group. Let’s go! “Let’s kill those fuckers over there and stop looking at my family.”
Everyone does the same thing. Maybe it’s far-fetched, but now, like the Japanese Navy, many Koreans will say it was wrong to join with the Japanese forces. I think at the time that was the best thing to do and no one should be embarrassed – that’s what humans do.
“By the way, it is not true that Koreans never attacked Japan. I believe 8,000 Korean warriors were a part of the Mongol invasion of Japan in 1274. That was before Hideyoshi’s invasion of Korea, so Koreans, along with the Mongols, drew first blood.”
Is this how we study the past to know the future? That old line of bullshit? “If I know the past I can create a better future?”
Someone drew first blood? Does someone always draw first blood? Can we name them?
Were the Mongols tough guys who came down from the north?
hahahahaha
Suprising, is it not, the silence that Matt and Gerry maintain over questions such as the civilian murders in throughout Asia that Stacked mentioned, the medical experiments carried out in Manchuria, the rape of Nanjing (oh, I forgot, Matt has blogged to downplay this event), the use of forced POW labour and various other attrocities carried out by the Imperial Japanese Army? What’s next, boys? Apartheid, what were those blacks moaning about? Idi Amin; a victim of history! Pol Pot; he wasn’t so bad! Matt, having known and heard the stories of WW2 allied internees who suffered brutalities at the hands of your beloved Japan, I double dare you to go and promulgate your theories at your local RSL club.
Hard and tiny. Yes Japan’s 1905 annexation was an inseparable part of Japan’s colonization of Korea. If you feel it isn’t prove it.
Here’s documented proof Japan’s annexation was a military land grab.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-x-files2.html
What is right or wrong? I don’t care.
Was it legal. No.
Territorial land acquisitions have to be part of a natural peaceful process. (Max Huber ICJ) Whopping up a watchtower during the largest war of the day in a bid to colonize your neighbour is not a “natural peaceful process” no matter how you look at it.
Hard and tiny says “You’ve got the island, what else do you want?”
First, I’m not Korean but if could speak on their behalf, I think they’d say “We want Japan to stop harassing us about Dokdo so we can move on…”
Kinda like this.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-comic.jpg
#222
I take it that you think that the Germans deserved their “Vertreibung” after WWII.
@218
Japan and Korea are world place names; they have no special maning [sic]. There is one human culture; it eats, it digs holes, it builds, it doesn’t know why it exists, it breeds, it goes to war, it kills itself. The present is what we are and what we know.
There are many human cultures. Pointing out generalities does not make them the same. Based on your arguments, one could conclude that all mammals are the same because they have the same “root DNA,” have similar characteristics, and do similar things. Problems and differences can only be overcome by first recognizing reality, not ignoring it. If there isn’t any difference between the Koreans and Japanese, then there wouldn’t be a conflict to begin with. The necessity of you making the statement under these circumstances shows that a problem exists.
I don’t completely disagree with your statement that Japanese soldiers did what they did because they were Japanese soldiers. The Japanese culture of WWII was a base culture, and we see the remnants of it in the current culture of Japan. It’s not a matter of DNA or ethnicity as I don’t think the same culture is prevalent among the ethnic Japanese in the US and Canada (They are generally great people). That being said, there were also a few Japanese soldiers here and there who refused to join in the institutionalized atrocities committed by the Japanese during WWII. Many of them were executed and deserve great credit for rare moral heroism under such circumstances.
Anyway, I get the impression that your main motivation is to diffuse the tension of the current argument.
@167/170
Calling the firebombing of Tokyo a war crime is ridiculous considering the era. The bombing of entire cities was the nature of war at the time and done by both sides. International moral values, better maps and intelligence (except for when the Clinton Administration bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, but they get a pass for being democrats), and the development of precision munitions does not indiscriminately allow for such today by the world powers, but it’s not fair to judge past eras based on modern values. Given our modern morals, it would have been better if all sides in WWII at least attempted to only attack military targets even if the technology of the time would have still resulted in many civilian casualties.
@211
In other words, Japan’s been ruled by Koreans since the beginning of civilization. In actuality we made the civilzation [sic] now called Japan.
This is the worst argument ever, and I could envision the comments to follow. You essentially made an opening for the claim that Korea is responsible for Japan and everything it did to Korea and the rest of Asia. Blind nationalism is not a suitable replacement for logic.
@222
These seem worth reposting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre#Atrocities_begin
http://www.users.bigpond.com/battleforaustralia/JapWarCrimes/TenWarCrimes/Murder_Cannibalism_Kokoda.html
http://www.users.bigpond.com/battleforaustralia/WarCrimeIntro.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/01/AR2007030100578.html
Re #22:
George Bush Sr. very nearly was a victim of Japanese cannibalism. When he and several other fliers in his formation were shot down in a Pacific battle for Chichi-jima in the Bonins, Bush was pciked up by an American sub. Some other nine aircrew became prisoners of the Japanese and at least a couple of them were eaten. See Flyboys: A True Story of Courage by James Bradley.
On the other hand, one of my uncles witnessed Korean soldier guards in a Japanese POW camp eat (after otherwise mistreating) prisoners. As evidenced by the number of Koreans among the war criminals indicted and punished by the Allies after WWII, you need to be wary of bringing up the issue of Japanese atrocities unless you’re prepared to acknowledge Korean complicity in some of those incidents. (And don’t even think about wheeling out the “inevitability”/the Japanese made them do it flag. No one who was on the receiving end of a Korean guard’s knout (or knows someone who was or just knows the facts) is going to salute that standard.)
“In other words, Japan’s been ruled by Koreans since the beginning of civilization. In actuality we made the civilzation now called Japan.”
Those were apparantly the superior blood line. Compare the orderly, wealthy Japanese of today with the backbiting, absurd Korea of today.
That should have been re #227.
Notice how the whole thread has degenerated into the typical kneejerk tit for tat. That was the point of my last sarcastic post. Why do Koreans carry such a chip on their shoulder about Japan? It defies logic to hate one’s neighbor, on a par with America’s stupidigy toward Cuba long after any international Communist threat has long since ceased to exist.
@228
All sides committed atrocities, so it’s not surprising that there were a few Korean war criminals. The difference with the Japanese is that it was institutionalized and widespread. It’s a matter of scope.
As for your uncle, how could he tell the difference between the Koreans and the Japanese? Was he a guard or a prisoner?
@#144:
Bum:
I didn’t claim that the widespread collaboration of Koreans with the japanese colonial regime (or even the rather long pre-colonial history of support by significant numbers of Koreans from a variety of social classes and political groups for Japanese involvement in Korea) was evidence of complete “Korean” acceptance of colonization.
The fact and the point simply are that, unlike nearly all the other examples you cite, there was unusually widespread pro-Japanese sentiment among Korean, resistance efforts among whom also both were unusually minor and relatively unsupported by the general population, particularly within Korea itself after the early suppression of the “righteous ‘armies’”.
IMO, one of the reasons the collaboration issue is so intractable in Korea is because its specific historical dimensions are so specific, even unique – like the collapse of Joseon itself — and, except for some egregious examples – mostly at lower levels and involving physical violence against other Koreans — is not so unambiguously perfidious as many would like to believe. Neither, ergo, was Japanese colonialism itself. Until there is enough consensus in Korea itself on recognizing this, efforts at truth and reconciliation are doomed to failure because of the absence of truth as part of the equation.
@231
Westerners no longer hold ill will towards Germany because Germany recognized and had a sincere sense of shame over WWII. They teach the truth in their textbooks, and Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany. I think Korea and China will do the same as the West if Japan does the same as Germany with regards to WWII and colonization of Asia.
The brutal occupation of Korea and the sexual slavery of 200,000 young, teenage girls abducted from their homes are not easy things to let go of, especially when the perpetrators essentially keep giving the finger.
A POW. He spoke Japanese, recognized that most of the guards often spoke in another language, and asked one his nationality.
@233
If what you say is true, then why did Japan leave at the end of WWII? Korea had been a colony long before Japan entered WWII (even before WWI). With such vast support from Koreans, who you imply considered themselves to be Japanese and that Korea was Japan, why did the Japanese leave? Why didn’t the “Korean-Japanese” fight for “reunification” with the island nation?
I can’t seem to find the section on widespread love of Japan here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_under_Japanese_rule
@235
I’m not buying your cock-and-bull anecdote.
@235
What was the name and location of the POW camp? What service was your uncle in (include squadron and platoon or the equivalents)? How did your uncle learn Japanese? Why were *most* of the guards speaking a different language (Am I really to believe that is plausible)? Please give more details.
Well, the Koreans, though, weren’t a “side”; they were participants — admittedly of varying degrees of voluntarism — in the Japanese program — which, moreover, was not so “institutionalized and widespread” as your use of those terms (is meant to) impl(y)ies, particularly in connection with your invocation of the German horrible in #234 (the problem with which, it seems to me, is (among other things) that it appears that nothing will satisfy Korean demands for sincerity short of some sort of Japanese national auto de fe that results in opening a charred Japanese archipelago to re-population by Korean settlers.
@235
It doesn’t seem like too bright of an idea to get the attention of the cannibal by asking personal questions, but that’s just me…
My uncle was a Canadian volunteer in the Gordon Highlanders, which was raised in the area of Scotland from which part of the family originated. He was taken prisoner in the Japanese assault down the Malay peninsula to Singapore. After the Japanese took Singapore he was interred at Changi Prison and one of the immediately adjacent work camps. In 42 or 43 he was transferred to Thailand, where he ended up in the camp at Songkurai in NW Thailand, near the Burmese border – one of the camps from which prisoners were mobilized to work on the Burma railroad project immortalized in Bridge Over the River Kwai. He had learned (rudimentary) Japanese at university (Queen’s – Kingston, Ontario) in preparation for a commercial career in the East. He said that most of the guards with whom he had the misfortune to interact, x-officers and non-coms, were Koreans. I don’t know what % of the total guard contingent they constituted.
@239
The idea that it was institutionalized and widespread comes from the journals and statements of Japanese soldiers in addition to various international sources. Japanese soldiers were lined up to rape women in Nanjing and other places with orders for the last one to murder (silence) the victim.
Yasuji Kaneko, 87, still remembers the screams of the countless women he raped in China as a soldier in the Japanese imperial army in World War II. Some were teenagers from Korea serving as sex slaves in military-run brothels. Others were women in villages he and his comrades pillaged in eastern China.
“They cried out, but it didn’t matter to us whether the women lived or died,” Kaneko said in an interview with The Associated Press at his Tokyo home. “We were the emperor’s soldiers. Whether in military brothels or in the villages, we raped without reluctance.”
The atrocities were systematic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre#Atrocities_begin
The Dokdo issue has more to do with recovering lost territory from annexation. The Koreans overreact given that they already occupy it.
@238
You’re making a lot of wild claims without providing proofs. Even then, you’re drawing an arbitrary line of the level of collaboration that warrants general dismissal of the feeling of resentment towards the annexation. And you’re also trying to measure the level of resentment by the level of visible active resistance – without considering the countless other factors that affect such activities. For example, if one considered the materials, wealth, and military technology accessible to a typical Korean peasant at the time, the grand revolutionary army that you seem to require would resemble something of Ewoks in Star Wars VI. And in real life, Ewoks tend to lose. Badly. Look at Donghak movement, for one.
In addition, NES’s point is that, if Koreans were so into being part of Japan and liked being Japanese citizens as you say, then why didn’t they ask to be re-annexed by Japan after the war? Why wait like 20 years before normalizing the relations?
@243
So, the US made Japan leave territoy they had occupied since before WWI even though the Koreans were really liking Japanese rule? You seem to be contradicting yourself a lot when on one hand you say that the Koreans by and large liked and welcomed Japanese rule and on the other hand say they wanted to liberate themselves. Which is it? On which side did the majority of Koreans stand? You can’t have it both ways.
Why are you so ashamed of your Japanese ancestry that you hide behind Canada, Scotland, and Australia?
@244
BINGO!
Thanks, Bum.
Wongkong:
“Aceface, do you mean the recently discovered “Secret” history of the Mongols? ”
No.History of Yuan is 元史.
And “Secret history of Mongols” is 元朝秘史 which is far from “recently discovered”
“Inoue is famous for being a historical novelist, and adding drama and color to the original historical texts. Given that “Wind & Waves” was a story centric on Koryo, he used the Koryo Sa a lot.”
I see.So you think Margaret Mitchell,an historical expert on the U.S civil war then.
“Any ways, it’s pretty clear from Koryo and Chinese sources that the invasions the original idea to invade Japan was Kublai’s. Yuan sources may very well say that it was Chungnyeol’s idea, but Korean and Chinese sources do not say that. ”
You might want to count out that “the Chinese source” part since History of Yuan was written by the Chinese.
“Uh… well, Tsushima was a base for very aggressive Japanese pirate activity in both Korea and China.”
True.But you should also understand that Wakou were multi-ethnic gangs.
“Chosun’s goal was to neutralize the pirate base. They repeatedly told the So clan and the Ashikaga Shogunate if they can’t control pirate activity within their declared juristdiction, then Chosun will do it for you. Despite the warnings, there was no meaningful decline in Wako activity, so Chosun made good on their threats.”
Neither So nor Ashikaga shogunate could do little if some of these piracy were conducted by non-Japanese pretending as Japanese.
“They came in to eliminate a direct threat to their home country. If you call that aggression, then I guess you’ll have to call the U.S.’s intervention in Afghanistan to evict the Taliban and Al Qaeda aggression too.”
You are not suggesting Japan could use that rhetoric to launch pre-emptive strike on NK,just because they abduct our citizens and constantly smuggles drugs and launch missiles,Right?
While I think you are comparing apple and orange here,I still say that’s an aggression on the side of Tsushima islanders.
“Overreliance on just one side of history is a selective and biased on.”
Wow.Sounds like a good advice.I try to remember that,WangKong….
ROTFLMAO. I’m half Italian and half a mix of Scots, Welsh and German – although the Welsh were probably originally Norman. My father was a Canadian citizen, and I was a dual citizen of US and Canada until I tuned 18; I’ve no idea why you think I have any connection with Oz. They don’t know all those details, but there are a number of people on the wire – e.g., Brendon Carr, Jeffery Hodges and The Marmot himself – who can confirm that I’m a thoroughly round-eyed and big-nosed white devil.
Anyway your recourse to what you apparently imagine to be the ultimate ad hominem attack, on top of your han-induced incapacity to read, understand and process anything beyond your cartoon concept of history, and resulting propensity willfully to misconstrue and misrepresent any position that is at odds with your primitive ethno-nationalism, has earned you my complete disregard from here on out!
Enjoy your kimchi at the church bingo w/ Bum. Maybe, if you’re lucky, they’ll serve some fried chicken and you’ll get a little protein with which to nourish that pathetically puny and han-deformed mental muscle of yours.
Actually, Sperwer, Bum makes a good point in #244. Rather than insult him, why not respond? He worded exactly what I was thinking about you and your views.
In his suicide letter in 1910, after learning of Japan’s annexation of Korea, Hwang Hyeon (黃現 – 황현) wrote:
Of course, years earlier, when friends were trying to get him to enter government service, Hwang Hyeon also wrote:
Hwang Hyeon did not like the Japanese, but he did not like the politics of Joseon Korea, either, so it seems he gave up on life.
Correction: 黃玹 (황현)
I didn’t insult Bum: I just hadn’t time to deal with his comment until now.
The problem with Bum is that he’s arguing with a strawman of his own imagination. I didn’t say that there weren’t Koreans that didn’t oppose Japanese interference in Korea’s affairs, let alone full-blown colonialism, or that there wasn’t a lot of resentment accumulated during and after the fact. What I did say was that, comparatively, there was a very high incidence of active Korean support for Japanese interference in Korean affairs, and even, later, full-blown colonization; and that, given Joseon Korea’s status as a sort of proto-example of what is now called a “failed state”, that sort of receptivity to Japanese interference and colonization is comprehensible. NB that I didn’t say “justifiable”, as it’s not my purpose to make moral judgements here on those events and the actors in them; but rather to try to account for the fact of such receptivity/collaboration and the historical hang-over with which Korea has been left as a result.
Re Donghak, etc., it ought to be kept in mind that the principal enemy of the donghak rebels was the Joseon state itself, that some Japanese samurai actually fought on the side of the rebels and that the Joseon court enlisted chinese and japanese assistance (actually, they may just have created an opening for Japan to intervene under the terms of the treaty that ended the Sino-Japanese War)to put it down – a big mistake since by the time the Court did so, such assistance wasn’t really needed as Korean commanders had the situation in hand, and Joseon thus unnecessarily opened the door to a substantial number of Japanese troops who basically never left.
For the rest, suffice it to say that the way that Korea laid down before the (relatively-speaking) only moderately more militarily advanced Japanese doesn’t compare very favorably with the Vietnamese peasantry’s response to the overwhelmingly more technologically advanced French and Americans – something I note not to rub Koreans noses in it, but simply as a factual observation that, again, is one of those things (failings) that I happen to believe underpins an awful lot of the sort of intellectual dishonesty and self-deceiving and self-indulgent political posturing that characterizes what passes for public discourse in Korea – things for which those in engage in them does deserve condemnation.
I don’t really disagree with the conclusion, but I do wonder whether its fair to compare the Korean and Vietnamese responses to colonialism. Independence struggles didn’t really heat up until after WWII, after the Japanese had proved the white man could be beat, a shit load of colonials had gotten combat experience in European armies and the imperial powers had bled themselves white. Prior to the Japanese occupation of Indochina, where the Vietnamese peasants any less docile than their Korean counterparts?
Then you have to compare colonial regimes — to use a more modern example, the fact that there are more protests in South Korea than the North is not necessarily a sign of greater acceptance in the North.
Again, I don’t deny that there was pretty wide-spread collaboration with the Japanese, and that the colony was disappointingly docile. I’m just saying that until the post-war independence movements, that was pretty par for the course throughout the colonized world — the British Empire, for example, was maintained by very few actual British troops and colonial officials (I believe it took only 20,000 British troops and officials to rule India, for instance).
Dude, this is what you said originally.
No strawman going on here. You wrote what you wrote.
Regarding Donghak, that’s precisely my point. Technologically advanced Chinese (and for the 2nd uprising, Japanese) troops beat the living hell out of the peasant army, who only had access to medieval weapons. Far cry from the Vietnamese response to the French and Americans, forming a regular army (NVA) as well as organized, modernized guerrilla forces (Vietcong). Can a Donghak soldier armed with a scythe or a bamboo spear really compare to a Vietcong armed with a sniper rifle? Probably not. And let’s not forget the jungle either.
No doubt by today’s standard, Korean response to occupation seems docile and compliant… but you’re ignoring shitload of details, contexts, and factors, dude. Even the Polish Jews had rifles and grenades.
Well, according to the Taewongun, Korea defeated France and America in the 1860s-70s. Didn’t they?
Seriously, agreed the French were pretty much outta gas (the US was supplying most of the materiel for them), if not the elan (the French stand at DienBienPhu was a magnificent failure); but the US? Not bled white – a lot of us are that way naturally – and vastly superior technologically and facing an enemy in VN very few of whom had any colonial military experience of the sort you mean (that would be the Africans, Arabs and Caribbeans for France and the Indians, Pakistanis and Africans for the Brits (who’d probably like to claim similar status for the Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis and – wait for it – Yanks, if they thought they could get away with it.)
And India managed to shake off the British bulldog on its own, even if its bite by that time was substantially less than its Churchillian bark.
Anyway, the point is not to praise or blame Korea but to account for its undeniably peculiar history and its unavoidably unpleasant aftertaste.
Until Koreans own their own history and deal with it constructively, there’s little chance of any constructive resolution of issue like the Seal Shit Rocks or its relations with Japan, generally, or, hence, NE Asian relations and security.
I am afraid I have to correct you, Sperwer. It is “Bird-shit Rocks,” not Seal-shit. Please try to keep your facts straight.
Dokdo Emergency! 10,000 Seagulls Attack with Shit Bombs”
Re 254:
Yep, “Korea: always the victim, never the victor.”
That’s (part of) the problem.
Funny that you would mention the Poles. My late former father-in-law was a member of the (non-Communist, non-Jewish) Home Army with which he fought the Germans (and then the Russians after the fall of Warsaw) from 1939, when his horse cavalry unit (which went into battle with carbines and — lances!) was scattered by German panzers, until ’45 when he was captured by the Russians (from whom he later escaped).
Anyway, you keep talking about the Donghak rebels – who weren’t fighting to oppose the Japanese but the Joseon court in whose service the Japanese were effectively fighting at the time. And sure, by the time Koreans got around to fighting the Japanese as Japanese they were at a material disadvantage – although not as much of one as you try to suggest: there were Korean regiments trained and armed by the Americans, the French and the Japanese themselves. But that begs the question (among others) of why Korea was so ill-equipped to mount a serious resistance. Although I have no doubt that there are creative Korean apologists out there who will find a way to blame anyone and everyone except Koreans for that state of affairs.
@256 Noted; but one of the original attractions of the Rocks long ago was the presence of seals, who were hunted there.
Dude, the reason I’m talking about Donghak is because I’m trying to convey to you the resources available to a common peasant at the time period, NOT because I’m trying to paint Donghak rebellion as an anti-Japanese resistance movement.
And I was talking about the Polish Jew uprising in the ghetto, but all right. Thanks for sharing.
looks like you’re one that’s doing all the strawman here. My point is that your original analysis completely ignores numerous other vital factors like resources, technology, precedence, organizational feasibility, etc, etc. It’s not as simple as “Oh, Koreans just caved in and bent over.”
When you have nothing to say, just claim the gyopo is channeling the victim mentality! Great strategy. Doesn’t make you look like a fool at all.
Sperwer, WHEW, dude, you seem absolutely determined to put the blame on Korea for its colonization by Japan. Glad you’re not putting the same blame on the Chinese and Taiwanese for the Japanese colonization of Formosa, Manuchuria, and later Hong Kong….or on the Malays for the Japanese colonization of what is now Malaysia….or the Philippinos for the Japanese colonization of what is now the Philippines.
“and later Hong Kong….or on the Malays for the Japanese colonization of what is now Malaysia….or the Philippinos for the Japanese colonization of what is now the Philippines.”
Alright,JK.When did Japan “colonized” these places?
You like to brag about your former inlaws being great patriots. Why not your current inlaws? Seems like you’re the one with problems.
these recent German immigrants became instant US patriots, firm believers in the US Constitution, and tried very hard to assimilate into the US population. NOT.
From my understanding the Donhakers already tried Zulu movie style rushes with bows, and spears, with immense casualties, men defeated by much, much smaller numbers. At least the Poles had rifles to gun down their enemies at a good 1000 feet away with. Bolt rifles were pretty much similar, 5 shot, long distances guns with great accuracy at the time, were they not?
Between 1940 and 1945, Aceface. THey were farther away from Japan than Korea was PLUS they were first under the control of the British, so the Japanese restrained themselves from colonizing these areas until AFTER Britain was made vulnerable by fighting Nazi Germany. Read Lee Kuan Yew’s book where he describes his childhood under the Japanese and why he is still bothered about how the Japanese deny their war guilt.
aceface, it appears Japan had a brief stay in those places. Under 5 years.
probably would have stayed much longer with full US and Allied approval, if they weren’t stupid enough to bomb Hawaii.
“Read Lee Kuan Yew’s book where he describes his childhood under the Japanese and why he is still bothered about how the Japanese deny their war guilt.”
I’ve read that.But it didn’t say much about Japan “colonizing” British straits colonies.Japan simply invaded and occupied them.”Colonialization” belongs to different category.
BTW,did you read his memoir’s second volume,”From the third world to first”?
You may not like what he said about Korea.
Anyway,Lee has his reason to accuse Japanese war crimes.He was working for Japanese army’s intelligence unit during the occupation of Singapore.Once he stop Japan bashing,likely accusation will be “collaborationist”.
aceface, didn’t he say that Koreans work hard for themselves, but try to screw other Koreans over, while the Chinese for the benefit of their relatives, and the Japanese truly work for their country?
I think he’s right.
@241 spewer
The Queen’s University Japanese Language Program first started in 1988.
http://qnc.queensu.ca/Encyclopedia/j.html
Was there some other special program for your uncle back then?
I still find it quite funny that your uncle bothered to ask the cannibal guard where he was from. It just doesn’t seem like it would be very wise to get the attention of the cannibal.
@248 spewer
Wow. I guess I really hit a nerve there…
I do not know if anyone knows it, but King Kojong praised the Japanese for their fight against the rebels and urged other Koreans to do so, as well.
To Aceface @266:
Dude, if Lee Kuan Yew’s criticism of Korea was legitimate, then by all means, it would not make me unhappy.
gbevers, do you think King Kojong had a secure position at the throne?
you’re being silly.
He’s gonna say whatever he wants to secure his spot.
Then how do you explain him sending over people to Hague to protest Japanese annexation? Change of heart? Answer is, he didn’t really appreciate the Japanese had no intention of leaving, at the time.
It was something like “Koreans are frightening people” and he recalled his memory of Koreans in Singapore with Imperial Army uniforms.
Which is not exactly PC,I’m afraid.
Yikes. Didn’t even noticed that one until NES pointed it out. I guess true colors do come out in the long run. Anyway, I’m gonna go and have my breakfast of kimchi and fried chicken to nourish my pathetically puny and han-deformed mental muscle. I have to hurry… church bingo is going to start in about an hour. NES, do you need me to pick you up?
If it’s his personal account (the part about Koreans in Singapore with Imperial Army uniforms), then why would I complain? He saw it, he saw it. If I read an exact quote of his, I will accept that he saw what he said he saw.
Likewise, my own family members who experienced the Japanese colonization in Korea saw what they saw….but the oppressiveness of the Japanese rule of Korea has been repeatedly questioned by people who didn’t live through it and who use a few select sources (more Japanese than anything) to say “it wasn’t as bad as Koreans said it was.” That is what I have a problem with.
A royalty urging other people to kill the rebels who want to dethrone him? Holy amazing underpants of mother Mary, Batman!
Once again, the reason I brought up Donghak is because it is a good example of what type of military technology, resources, and organizational skills were available to the peasant population of that time. (i.e. Ewoks)
“but the oppressiveness of the Japanese rule of Korea has been repeatedly questioned by people who didn’t live through it and who use a few select sources (more Japanese than anything) to say “it wasn’t as bad as Koreans said it was.” That is what I have a problem with.”
Maybe.
It’s just some of us have a problem to acknowledge colonialism in Korea is equivalent of holocaust or Japanese occupation of China.And that happens to be something we hear from a lot of post-colonial Koreans very frequently.
Frogmouth, did you say something about Korea not trying to get an EEZ out of its claim to Dokdo? Do you have something to substantiate that remark?
@277,
The Japanese slaughter is well documented. Closing your eyes and pretending its not there isn’t an argument.
“Likewise, my own family members who experienced the Japanese colonization in Korea saw what they saw….but the oppressiveness of the Japanese rule of Korea has been repeatedly questioned by people who didn’t live through it”
Nonsence. It is the younger generation who didn’t live through it who continually bring it up. In my experience, my parents’ generation have generally not been all that critical.
@278, its up to you to provide proof that they are, not frogmouth
@279.
Too true.Comparison was a silly argument.
@280, actually its the older generations who are critical and the people teaching the younger generations.
They are the ones who witnessed their families getting massacred by the Japanese imperial army.
“It is the younger generation who didn’t live through it who continually bring it up.”
Actually, I find it’s the younger generation of Koreans who bring it up less and less. And it’s been the younger generation of some Westerner expats and Japanese who question those Koreans who actually were eyewitnesses to the Japanese colonialism.
“In my experience, my parents’ generation have generally not been all that critical.”
Your perspective is that the older generation of Koreans is not as critical of Japanese colonial rule and that the younger generation does complain more. From my perspective (confirmed repeatedly for me) it’s been the reverse.
@282, comparison is a good argument except you have nothing to back it up.
If you put this in perspective of the current whining about water cannons being a violation of human rights as well as the spurious claims that “Dokdo has been Korea’s from time immemorial”, you realize that Koreans exaggerate anything that boosts their claim to being the victims of the universe.
Get real. The average Korean today has only benefited from the Japanese. The grudges, just like the grudges against the U.S. are imaginary.
Ask yourself: do the statistics really show that US GIs have a high rate of crime and have gone unpunished for crimes committed off duty in Korea? Did the US military really give Cheon Doo Hwan permission to carry out the Kwang Ju massacre? Was the 2 schoolgirls accident really a cause worth demonstrating about? Was SOFA really unfair? Was No Gun Ri really proven to have been a massacre committed upon higher orders, rather than an unfortunate accident of war? Was the US really attempting to sell beef in Korea that Americans themselves don’t eat?
All these myths have one thing in common: the need for Koreans to assert themselves the victims of fictitious atrocities at the hands of foreigners.
Then ask yourself whether the Koreans have demonize Japanese unfairly over the years. It becomes fairly obvious that you must take Korean victimization claims with a huge grain of salt.
Koreans haven’t demonized the Japanese, their own documents, including correspondence from American diplomats and Korean scholars are the ones doing it.
I like I said somewhere else, pretending it doesn’t exist isn’t an argument.
Feel free to stop pretending to be an American.
Its amazing at the Japanese’s sheer lack of integrity when it comes to history and war.
The German’s themselves have apologized for their actions during WW1 & 2. Yet we have Japan, who were the Nazi’s biggest allies, who cannot even bear the thought of doing so similar to a common criminal who still believes in his innocence.
I have not said that there was no cause for resentment, only that it has led to prejudice and skewed judgement. While you speak in unsupported generalities, making vague references to supposed sources, I can provide actual examples of unfair criticisms of the Japanese that I have heard over the course of 40 years:
In the 1970s when I asked young people why they expressed hatred of the Japanese, they would only parrot a term that had just been published in Time magazine to describe the Japanese salaryman culture: “economic animal.” What does that mean anyway? To these young people it doubtless meant something different from the way in which the term was originally intended, due to the pajoritive connotation of the word “animal” in Korean. Without providing any evidence of how Korea had been supposedly harmed by Japanese economic ploicies, they were in fact accusing Japan of economic aggression toward Korea, which they could not really justify. The closest justification for the concept came from the complaint that Japan got rich on the Korean War.
JK: “Your perspective is that the older generation of Koreans is not as critical of Japanese colonial rule and that the younger generation does complain more. From my perspective (confirmed repeatedly for me) it’s been the reverse.”
Define “older”, and “younger.” Of course, I’m from Kyeong San Do which is another factor, but by “older” I refer to the generation currently in their 70s who were raised under the Japanese occupation, and “younger” generally as the 386 generation. I have very little idea of what the young kids are saying or doing.
#281, frogmouth made the assertion, which contradicts the conventional wisdom. If Korea is claiming Dokdo but asserting nothing more than a 12-mile zone around it instead of a 200-mile EEZ, that is a remark I’d like to see supported.
LMAO you are now pretending to be a Korean-American.
My arguments refer to well known world events and are hardly vague.
On the other hand you are citing your own anecdote as reliable and credible.
During the 70′s, 80′s, and 90′s Japan did wage economic war against Korea. Including and not limited to bribing journalists, media and certain corporations into skewing a Korean image prior to the entry of the Chaebols.
My professors in the US all provide me with some very interesting stories on just how worried the japanese were about Korean corporations. Even to this day my acquaintances provide me with evidence of the Japanese trying to bribe Americans into published subtly negatively skewed articles.
stacked: “@280, actually its the older generations who are critical and the people teaching the younger generations.They are the ones who witnessed their families getting massacred by the Japanese imperial army.”
My elder family members must have been fortunate exceptions then.
Please provide the details and statistics of the massacres you refer to, and show the percentage of Koreans who were victomized.
Back your assertions. These would be groundbreaking news stories if you can provide any evidence of such Japanese economic warfare.
@291, you need to provide evidence that Korea is asserting for those reasons not frogmouth.
Please stop arguing like a juvenile nerd. In the real world you do not ask for proof that something doesn’t exist.
#295, you need to relax with the name-calling. Frogmouth made the assertion and he has researched the subject a great deal. It stands to reason he has the evidence for his assertion at his fingertips, and that’s all I’m asking. You are making the dumb assumption that I am attacking his assertion.
Back at ya stacked. You are the one arguing like a jevenile nerd, making sensationalist claims without providing support.
“Yet we have Japan, who were the Nazi’s biggest allies, who cannot even bear the thought of doing so similar to a common criminal who still believes in his innocence.”
Now you are making comparison without
any back ups but hypes.
“During the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s Japan did wage economic war against Korea. Including and not limited to bribing journalists, media and certain corporations into skewing a Korean image prior to the entry of the Chaebols.”
And these seriously discredits any argument coming from you.
“Nonsence. It is the younger generation who didn’t live through it who continually bring it up. In my experience, my parents’ generation have generally not been all that critical.”
And I have to agree with #280 here.And that’s pretty much a consensus among nearly all the Japanese who had spend some time in Korean society.
@296, dont try to put words in my mouth. Fact still remains you want proof of your viewpoint from him. If you want proof that the Korean govt is doing this for an exteneded EEZ then you provide the evidence.
I’m not the one making sensationalist claims, what I’m claiming is well documented facts unless you are trying to claim that Japan as indeed officially apologized for its collaboration with the Nazi’s and the Asian massacres.
Feel free to provide proof of anything you say. So far you’ve made endless claims with zero evidence.
@298 good rebuttal aceface.
Feel free to provide something other than your disagreements.
300!
Marmot, please switch my comment and Frenchy’s so I don’t look like such a tool.
Its probably a good time to mention that during this apparently peaceful and beneficial occupation of Korea, the Japanese also kidnapped and raped 1 million+ women.
If Japan had apologized like real men after it lost you probably wouldn’t have a problem.
From here it only gets worse and by the looks of it its another repeat of Japanese cowardice similar in nature to the 10 year recession or more accurately the inaction and consequences of.
Marmot please switch user-81′s flag to Japanese to more accurately reflect is viewpoint instead of giving the viewers of marmot a false consensus effect commonly used by propagandists.
Stacked.
If you are so intersted in facts,why not look them up by yourself?
Almost all the Japanese prime ministers in the past sixteen year had apologized to Korea with the exception of Tsutomu Hata who resigned in two months and never had opportunity for that.
@298, thank you, Aceface. I can stand being corrected on a mistaken assumption. Being human I am often mistaken, and any personal misconceptions must be corrected.
For instance, I admitted to having been wrong in my unexamined assumptions about Dok Do all these years. I simply gave credence to the Korean side due to the vehemence and repitition of the arguments. But it appears to have been the “big lie” phenomenon at work.
The Japanese economic warfare arguments were common in the US in the 1970s when Detroit was rudely reminded of how fat and lazy they had become. But Americans got over it. The Japanese manufacturers just did a better job. I have never heard a credible account of the kind of economic warfare that stacked is alledging against either Korea or the US. This is why I call for facts, as I did with Dok Do, so I can again weigh the evidence with an open mind.
Can Stacked substantiate the Japanese bribery charges? I seem to recall a guy in the 1070s named Dong Sun Park who attempted to bribe the US concerning rice trade. He was caught redhanded, and when I brought the subject up with Korean coworkers, they ganged up on me in a screaming and bullying session. I remember reading a brochure in my workplace titled “I am a Proud Korean” in which he excoriorated US society. This was the propogandistic line – it’s not our fault; it’s America’s fault for having the gaul for criticizing our attempts to bribe the US officials. They are the hypocrites. We are the victims.
I am not a Japan expert, but my understanding is that corruption is not as endemic there as in Korea, and that this has helped Japan and hurt Korea. However, I could be wrong.
More to the point, I have never heard of a credible argument that Japan has inflicted economic damage on Korea for its own advantage. I am not saying that it isn’t true, only that I have not heard of it and that I have seen Koreans play up this angle in the past.
Re #304: Stacked, this is the problem you have and this is the problem that the emotional partisans on both sides of the Dokdo issue have. You seem to think that any questions are criticisms.
There are people above who use the Dokdo issue to reaffirm every negative stereotype they have about Korea, but my request to Frogmouth has nothing to do with that. If Frogmouth were awake, he’d probably confirm that.
Follow carefully, Frenchy. If Frogmouth’s assertion is correct about Korea not claiming a 200-mile EEZ from Dokdo but Japan is, it would take a lot of wind out of the sails of the critics of Korea on Dokdo who think this comes down to the government stoking nationalism to fight what is really an economic grab in disguise.
The Japs! Keeping the Korean man down.
“My professor said so. Acquaintances too.”
Wonderful delusions. How they flatter you. Aside from other Koreans who finds them credible? A lovely conspiracy. It explains so much.
Speaking of apologies, I note the Austria apologized for playing Germany’s flunkey. And Korea’s apology is coming when?
men of all nations have treated the conquered country’s women, with substantial sexual coercion.
interestingly, this did not increase a love between the men and the conquered women. This simply confirmed and perpetuated condescending attitudes by the victor.
Japan is unique in having a “sex squadron” of sorts, following their army men to the front lines.
The pretext is to prevent rape of the locals, and to protect from sexual disease.
It is my belief that Japan used a front to recruit these women to factory jobs for war manufacturing, and forced some to front line sex.
It is not hard to imagine, considering that 20% of Japanese porn is rape themed, and Japan is by far the leader in East Asian pornography. Thailand may come on top in actual sex services, but Japan is the leader in the other category, and it won’t be beat. Also, it’s economy won’t be #2 in the region for quite a while as well.
Give me credit, I’m giving Japan credit where credit is due.
Japanese Heian period was as sexually liberal as the Greco-Roman aristocrats, who indulged in their bathhouses and sex ceremonies with temple prostitutes.
Me thinks I am stating just the facts.
if the Japanese army wasn’t involved in the sex squadron, why the hell were Japanese army doctors giving these women abortions, sexual disease treatments, and vaginal exams?
Don’t they have better services to provide, such as in taking care of the soldier’s health?
No army in the world takes care of the health of local prostitutes catering to the armed forces.
Drop me a line when the USFK army docs are taking care of prostitutes in Dongdoochon. LOL.
if you’ve watched “Letters from Iwo Jima” (objectively a good movie, separate from any feelings I have about Japan),
you will see men of grown age wrapping their lower torsos with garments made by women. Upon superficial investigation of the matter, it seems these garments were women’s undergarments. I guess something like panties.
So, a grown soldier wearing panties on the front line, can escape bullets, because bullets will dodge them.
LOL, right?
Don’t laugh too hard, fellow 2nd class citizens of the Japanese Empire.
Koreans wore this shit during the Korean war and the Vietnam war as well. Watch that movie with Dokgo Yong Jae, concerning the Vietnam war.
Let’s stop copying Japan, Koreans.
“Drop me a line when the USFK army docs are taking care of prostitutes in Dongdoochon. LOL.”
I recall that this was in fact one of the anti American criticisms – that the USFK was mandating penicilin treatments in too high a strength which women claimed was weakening them.
actually, let’s now hear from Mr. Gerry Bevers,
the proponent of the theory that
Sejong Daewang is the originator of comfort women services.
It’s scholarly. Let’s give it another voice.
#312, surely you have a reference for this recall?
@6
Is no rock in the sea safe from the hungry Korean beast?
Here’s an idea. Stimulate volcanic activity and create an artifical island just past Dokdo and then claim it. That should expand the EEZ.
@170:
shakuhachi: “Trying to find info about Gerry in an attempt to brand him an unpatriotic American is quite disgusting.”
This is rich coming from a guy who runs a blog dedicated to finding info to denigrate an entire ethnicity.
WJK (#313),
If you really want to read it again, here it is:
King Sejong Ordered Comfort Women for his Troops
@248 (228/235/241) spewer
The proper response to a personal anecdote used as an argument is an ad hominem attack, is it not? If the story of your uncle is documented somewhere, along with other stories of Koreans being the majority of the guards at Japanese POW camps and engaging in cannibalism, then you might have a point to bring up. However, in the absence of such documented evidence, I can also interpret your anecdote as your uncle, who learned Japanese, was an ally betrayer/Japanese collaborator who abused and ate prisoners at POW camps with his Japanese friends during WWII and who made up such malicious lies out of hatred for Koreans. Since you don’t have anything documented to refute my claims, my interpretation holds the same validity.
Your personal anecdotes and those of your uncle, late former father-in-law, cousin’s girlfriend’s next-door neighbor’s acquaintance, and other various relatives hold little weight as legitimate evidence and only invite ad hominem attacks. (Although, at least in the case of your former father-in-law, the Polish calvary being destroyed by German tanks is documented by B&W video footage).
The idea that your uncle, a POW, asked a prison guard, whom he saw cannibalizing other POWs, personal questions is absurd to say the least. Furthermore, your claims that he studied Japanese before being captured during WWII at Queen’s University (Kingston, Ontario), where the Japanese language program was established in 1988, seems rather suspect.
Actually, Tsushima or Damado was Korean in culturally & historically. It was independent island state until Japanese forcefully occupied the islands. These who have never visited this islands please visit the island and see for yourself. Nearly all historical sites and graves are belongs to Korean immigrants and Middle Korean.
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