The Chosun Ilbo reports that Seoul City is upset at the way the Lonely Planet describes their fair city, and has asked the guide book company for corrections.
Translation later — Korean speakers can read and discuss now, though. Much to discuss in there, actually.
103 Comments
The guy who wrote it got facts about my store wrong. I mean way off. I am just happy that did not happen with the location.
A new one should be due out in the next year to a year and a half.
The more people that stick it to those holier-than-thou pompous lefties at Lonely Planet, the better.
I love the idea that LP should focus on Korea’s IT sector. How exactly?
Can a tourist use his Blackberry?
How about his 3G GSM Phone?
Could I easily get a Korean mobile phone activated?
How much foreign-friendly programing is there on the hyped DMB system?
Can one easily use websites without buggy ActiveX controls, or constant pup-ups to download some proprietary software?
How does a foreigner easily use Korean websites without a Korean ID?
While Korea’s IT advancement is impressive, its basically useless to the visitor.
“Korean culture defies analysis” - how is that a bad thing to say?
The Korean media’s efforts to whip up xenophobia sure are relentless, all right.
I also like the current effort to get people angry at the Japanese for poking fun at the Korean “mushroom hair” trend on one of their TV shows.
(What I can’t help noticing, though, is the number of young Korean netizens who now rush to a)defend Japan and b) criticize the media’s hatemongering in such cases, as opposed to the lack of young Korean netizens who defend the US on anything.)
Only the other week I was standing at the top of Namhansanseong and thinking what a beautiful city Seoul was, right up there with Stockholm, Sydney and Vienna. And Busan has a certain Rio-esqueness that you don’t find too many other places. I’ve long maintained that Korea is a great place for touristing on a budget; great scenery, beaches, mountains, islands, lots of history, temples, palaces, museums, great food, cheap and efficient public transport, unique culture (ancient and modern), no visa for OECDers, direct flights to most parts of the world. There’s modern infrastructure but it’s cheaper than most other OECD countries. There’s little hassling of tourists like you find in Egypt or Bali. No painful haggling for everything like in India. There’s even geo-political sights if that’s what floats your boat, or endless shopping if you prefer.
I could write them a tour guide to Korea, but see, there’s no economic incentive for me to do so. Anyway, there’s already enough people in Seoul.
This is the most wired/wireless country in the world you are talking about. And, I forgot, a top-notch financial hub as well.
Seoul certainly is a beautiful city but the kind of place a family spends their yearly vacation? I don’t think so. The thing about Stockholm, Sydney, and Vienna is their proximity to other interesting/scenic places. The DMZ tour and Ichon ceramics village don’t really hold up to the Alps or the Great Barrier Reef. Busan and Rio? I,ve never been to Rio but……
certainly not a holiday location…
there are so many other countries I’d prefer to go to as a tourist.
all my mates enjoyed here was the drinking and the trip to the DMZ
OK, fair’s fair, the drawbacks (budget tourist-wise that is): Hardly anyone speaks English, there’s people everywhere and there aren’t too many real backpacker hostels; minbak is often expensive for what it is. And it’s not a good idea to come in July or August and expect to be doing much outdoors.
Someone should inform the city that the Lonely Planet seldom get the information correct in any of their guides and to not get their panties in too much of a twist.
Eujin, what’s the pay like these days at the Korea Tourism Organization?
Eujin…
budget wise Korea aint that cheap for a traveller
#3 -
If the tourist’s Blackberry is 3G, then yes, it will roam on Korean networks. Same goes for overseas tourists’ 3G phones.
LG Telecom will provide monthly cellular service to foreigners with very little hassle and no deposit—regardless of the type of visa. The other two carriers will also provide service, but they may require deposits from foreigners on short-term (1 year or less) visas.
Points well taken.
Registration on Korean websites for foreigners is not nearly as difficult as it’s made out to be. Most major sites (Cyworld, Gmarket, Auction, Interpark, Ticketlink, etc.) allow registration with a foreigner ID number (외국인등록번호), even if it doesn’t say so—you just enter the number in the 주민등록번호 field. The primary obstacle for most people is the language barrier, I suspect.
You guys. Your complaints sound like whining to us long time residents. You’re spoiled and you don’t even know it.
I stopped using LP years ago. Apart from having to put up with the judgmental tone of the writer, I always wound up in restaurants full of people leafing through their Lonely planets looking for the next place to leaf through their Lonely Planets. But I don’t understand how stressing Korea’s IT strengths will pull in the tourists. Unless of course they are going for that PC Bang traveler niche market.
actually to join cyworld you need to send a copy of your ID
The language barrier is also Dram_man’s primary obstacle to communicating in English.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Can’t really imagine western tourists coming here full stop.Football finished 6 years ago.
Great, I see I’m going to be fighting a rearguard action here.
#7, cyrus, if you’re using the LP to plan a family holiday then I think you’re using the wrong book.
Sydney to Great Barrier is about the same distance as Seoul to Hokkaido with everything worthwhile (or not) to see between here and there. But I wasn’t rating the cities on this basis. If you’re taking a weekend city break it doesn’t matter how close it is to other things. You agree with me anyway…
Rio has big beaches right in the centre of the city and lots of green hills with a quite spectacular topography, all mixed in with a hustle and bustle multi-million inhabitant port city. Busan has…
#11. komtengi, I’m not comparing Korea with India or Indonesia when I say it’s cheap, I’m comparing it with other OECD countries. New Zealand’s also quite cheap for an OECD country. Look in any book of the Great Train Journey’s of the World and you’ll probably find the Tranzalpine, Christchurch to Greymouth. Right now they’re offering a special USD87 return. Return from Seoul to Gangneung is about USD50. The trip through the Taebaek range is similar, tunnels, bridges, mountains, rivers. Both journeys are pretty spectacular. The Tranzalpine is once a day. If you want to do it as a day-trip it’s basically go there, turn around and come back. Trains to Gangneung are basically every two hours. You can stop get off, wander round, get a later train, get off again…
This country would do well promoting activities such as hiking and scuba diving. Korea is quite famous for both.
” Most major sites (Cyworld, Gmarket, Auction, Interpark, Ticketlink, etc.) allow registration with a foreigner ID number (외국인등록번호), even if it doesn’t say so—you just enter the number in the 주민등록번호 field. The primary obstacle for most people is the language barrier, I suspect.”
Of course, keep in mind that anyone with a 외국인등록번호 is most definitely not a tourist.
Even Canadians with their 6 months on arrival can’t get one. I think LP is geared at tourists?
For all that the average tourist can experience, IT-wise, Korea could just as well be a Techno-potemkin-village with everyone staring at little blank screens… Just to give the impression that Korea is all gizmo’d up.
Lonely Planet doesn’t make Seoul look bad, Seoul makes Seoul look bad.
LP often has mercenaries come in, write books, then head to the next destination. They typically don’t know any more about the location than the people reading the book they write.
#18 true, but I can’t really see backpackers flying to Seoul for a weekend city break. I’m sure expats in China and Japan may at times though. Maybe the Great Barrier reef was a bad example but I think you see my point.However, I do agree that Seoul(and Korea) has plenty to offer the traveler it just needs to market itself along with it’s regional rivals(partners).A two week package trip to Seoul, Beijing, and Tokyo seems like it would sell.
Perhaps Seoul needs its own version of this
http://like-a-local.com/
Report on that site here.
http://current.com/items/89048682_like_a_local
Heck, I always enjoyed taking tourists to see my favourite makkoli and soju emporia as well as the Michelin 3 star (mine anyhow)rated chicken foot hofs of Chungchongbukdo.
The Moon Handbook I got for free off of someone was quite poor. The LP book is too politically correct and doesn’t tell the lowdown on places. Anyone want to start a travel wiki so people don’t have to use those crappy books?
I for one haven’t used LP since they took out the dope reviews, which was way back in the late eighties.
whoever said seoul is beautiful is either blind or retarded
as a city seoul is probably one of the ugliest metro areas in the world
You’ve obviously never been hiking here. There aren’t too many cities in the world that can boast modestly sized peaks dotted with temples accessible by the subway.”Ugliest metro areas in the world” You ever been to Detroit?
The majority of Seoul is butt-ugly, cheaply made office and apartments, but if you know where to look, there’s a lot of history in the area. I live near Daehakno and I’m continually stumbling across cool stuff with a history that is absolutely amazing, if you’ve grown up in the West Coast US.
Sungkyunkwan Uni, the reconstructed city walls, and old, old neighborhoods. On top of the contemporary cultural stuff, like the mess of small museums and theaters.
Nothing flashy like the Roman Colliseum, but I love it here.
I found myself in agreement with most of what was supposedly written. But I like Seoul anyway. It IS concrete and glass. The people ARE rushing about crazily. Just like kimchi, Seoul is an acquired taste. You can’t expect some travel writers to crash in and like it.
#28 - Being able to conveniently go hiking on Bukhansan or Gwanaksan is definitely a really good aspect of visiting or living in Seoul. Not only is the scenery really good, but people are generally a lot happier/friendlier when they’re on a mountain. A post-hike feed (with more than a little dong dong ju or makoli to wash it down) at the end of the trail tends to be a good way to complete the overall experience.
I have found virtualtourist.com to be more useful than Lonely planet. The contributors offer more contemporary information than a LP book. Mind you, they do hawk certain crap ads on the site but I look for useful travel information as for what the general vibe is in a place and what to look out for.
If you guys want to complain of an over-hyped place that is far worse than Seoul, try going to Prague nowadays and be prepared to have your shirt stolen right off of your backs, not to mention the lazy police.
I, and probably most Koreans, including the netizen commentators in that piece agree, Seoul has no soul, and it’s a butt ugly concrete hell hole with nothing to do and nothing to look at. But to me, it’s strange that a book which is supposed to promote tourism is saying, don’t come to this ugly city because there’s nothing to look at and there’s nothing to do.
more annoyingly, the stuff in LP is usually too “on the beaten track” They hit all the obvious hot spots a tourist would find on their own, and as near as I can tell their selection method for yeogwan, minbak, and nearly all restaurants is to walk into the first thing they find off the street.
Lonely Planet is supposed to promote tourism? I guess as a means to the end of selling its overpriced books it is, but that is not really their purpose.
#23, cyrus, I see we mainly agree. If I were going to Japan for a couple of weeks I would try to avoid Tokyo. There are much better things to see in Japan. But if I were coming to Korea, I think Seoul and the surrounding areas are definitely worth a few days, if not a few months…
Just for arguments sake, based purely on aesthetics, I’m calling my top six world cities: Stockholm, Rio, Sydney, Vienna, Seoul, Hong Kong and my bottom six: LA, Osaka, Mexico City, Delhi, Rotterdam and I’ll chuck in an Incheon just to keep the Korea-haters happy.
Actually, Incheon’s not really a world city. If we’re allowing that then Birmingham (UK) and Glasgow should get a look in too and I’ve been avoiding places like Jakarta and Sao Paolo.
Seoul is usually rated equal to morning puke, by most foreigners. This is the first time ever, where I’ve seen anyone rate Seoul as one of the top 10 aesthetic cities. What is the world coming to?
#36-Hmmm this is where we start to disagree. Not even mentioning Seoul or Incheon or even Osaka as your picks…Birmingham? I have family who live there and even they would get a kick out of your list. Paris, Rome not even a mention?
#36 for aesthetics, and purely aesthetics Sydney yeah sure….
but what a shithole it is when you scratch the surface
and on the flipside I find Seoul the exact opposite. Horrible to look at, but great once you get underneath the garbage.
Some bizarre choices, makes it hard to respect your judgement. But I still stand by my judgement that Seoul is far from a tourist spot. Someone hit the nail on the head when they suggested a trip that takes in Japan and/or China with a trip to Korea.
#38, cyrus, I was meaning to put Birmingham at the bottom of the list. That was the bottom six, starting from the bottom. List all cities, which ones come bottom, not list all attractive cities.
I used to live in Birmingham when I was a kid. Is the Bull Ring still there? As a kid the highlight was Cannon Hill Park. What’s good in Birmingham, errr…Simon Rattle is good.
I’ve been to Osaka several times now. Last time I went I asked the students at the university what was good to see in Osaka. After lots of umming and ahhing they came up with this.
I don’t rate Paris too highly. It’s overrated for what it is. I find the Hausmannization a bit bombastic and there’s dog-shit everywhere. There are nice parts though and I’m a fan of La Grande Arche.
Rome I definitely rate. But the highlight isn’t aesthetic. St Peter’s Basilica feels a bit “awkward” and Il Vittoriano is funny, but not attractive. The history and the religious angle are definitely highly rated. I’d say Rome’s in the top ten on aesthetics and in the top five of places to visit.
Number one place to visit is…Jerusalem. Gotta go there if you’ve never been.
#39, komtengi, Sydney’s great if you can see the harbour, really great. But you need to stay away from the backpacker places like King’s Cross and Bondi. Try taking a ferry over to Mosman Bay or out to Watson’s Bay or even some of the northern beaches.
$39, komtengi, you from Sydney are you?
#38, All these cities…it’s like asking what’s less dirtier, dirt in my backyard or the dirt in my neighbors. Oh, and to defecate, we dig a hole, do our business, and then bury it up. Man, and don’t get me started with people pissing everywhere, it’s like a national sport or something on Friday nights.
I think if you really want to get a feel for a place/people, you either have to go into the more remote areas, unless it’s not a developed nation. To be honest, I’ve visited most major/capital cities (thanks to my brother being an executive in the airlines industry), and it’s always felt just like walking into another room in the same house, except painted a different color. All the same luxuries available, people wearing more or less similar clothes.
But I guess for the majority of Americans, this is what they look for. I mean, for example, in Paris, you’ve got plenty of great places to eat and I find a bunch of tourists eating in McDonalds and talking about the price of a burger. Uh, and I was only in there to grab a drink…no joke! It’s quite rare to see people just exploring, and not getting shuttled around…I’m sure anyone who says they don’t, the posters here, are just the exception. Kudos to ya’ll.
Outside of this, you’ll see some interesting and crazy stuff. The kindest people, the most racist (yeah, zas the reason I don’t believe for an instant people in the West are any better, they just cover it up. Push the right buttons and they might just might pull a Michael Richards on ya). Cannibalism (already deceased), beastiality, all alive and kicking well, in full view, I kid ye not. Or perhaps, nothing too different at all, just some curious peepers.
Oh, and you guys are lucky too, when I was in that dirtbag Seoul, that damn stream thing wasn’t even open, and from the pics, it’s a hella lot better than before, even if it’s like nothing to ya. You guys should go swimming down (and don’t tell me how dirty it is) there. And take some pics!
I don’t remember seeing dog shit everywhere when I was in Paris, but it was only a few days.
#37, cm, Hyangwon-jeong with Bugaksan in the background like morning puke? At least the colors are right in fall.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/6.....282781771/
The dog shit/Paris connection is not exactly an urban myth, more of an urban exaggeration.and #40 I guess the “top” six threw me off and I didn’t register the bottom part of the list.Anyway, any top # list is always gonna be subjective
Actually this marmot guy’s got some pretty neat photos of Seoul and places in Korea. You should check out his blog sometime!
marmot
#46, cyrus, are you actually in France like your little flag suggests?
Maybe they cleaned it up a lot since I was there (last time was 2005) and this guy was there and this guy and this guy…
BTW, I thought Nice was worse.
Not all Blackberrys 3G work in Korea. There’s mainly one model, the 8707g, that does, right out of the airplane.
If Seoul is on any list, I think Baltimore deserves consideration.
Well, it’s really bizarre to see Seoul compared favorably to Stockholm and Vienna….
Seoul has improved vastly on the aesthetic side over the last 10 years. It now has some genuinely clean, interesting neighborhoods. Just to list a few amazing ‘hoods you can’t find in any other city:
1. Samchungri
2. Hongdae
3. Insadong
4. Daehangro
#42 Sarcasm I take it??
Can’t stand Sydney and you couldn’t pay me enough to live there
Yup. Seoul ain’t no Rome, but it has a few great neighborhoods (above) and a handful of awesome attractions. Ever been up on Inwang-san…?
When i co-authored LP’s “Korea” 4th edition (purple-cover one), i had gnarly experiences of the, uhm, shortcomings and limitations of how they operate. I was proud of our final product, ten times better than the hopeless 3rd ed — and 11 years later some of my paragraphs are still in the current version. But after it went to press, i never worked for them again…
Seoul is a lot like like Taipei in many respects: Surrounded by mountains, temples, modern architecture, some interesting neighborhoods. For Koreans to understand why Seoul isn’t attracting hordes of tourists, ask yourself if Taipei is in your holiday plans.
Marmot has photos of places I would really like to see. Which is why the Internet is probably how most people plan their vacations these days.
What I like about Seoul - great art museums, palaces, good food (in the expensive hotels), nice hiking.
What I don’t like about Seoul - expensive (no, make that very expensive for a tourist who does not speak the language) and crazy motorbikes driving on the sidewalks.
There seem to be no local guidebooks, so why complain if LP makes the effort?
LP is for tourists. I have one that I brought last year and was planning on visiting but then some youngster had to go messed it up with his ignorance.
What’s for tourists in Sydney apart from pretty good eating and a large-ish bridge? There’s not exactly much history, and crushing syringes underfoot isn’t too sweet. Probably better than dog-shit, I guess.
I love it for the friends I have there, but I don’t see its appeal as an outsider.
Funny about Lonely Planet… as their resources have increased, their worth has in many ways decreased. For years, Robert Storey wrote the Lonely Planet guides to Korea, Taiwan and Mongolia all by himself (and probably a few other places). Those guides were predictably lacking (except for Taiwan, where Storey lives).
Storey was infamous, of course, for his negativity, especially about Mongolia, but Korea got it bad, too. Half the guide seems to say “There is nothing to do in [whatever Korean city]“.
@Eujin,
Any list of top and bottom cities is limited to the cities one has actually visited. I’m not as well-traveled as you, but I’m shocked that Seoul made your top six list and NYC did not. Architecturally NYC leaves Seoul in the dust and is a much more pleasant city than its reputation suggests. The only thing that repelled me was the smell of urine around the south perimeter of Central Park. New York City doesn’t have mountains, but it is surrounded by water. Tourists don’t just want to look at stuff. They want good eats, too. Food-wise, Seoul is underrated, but it doesn’t hold a candle to the unlimited variety in Manhattan alone.
I would also rank Tokyo over Seoul because of Tokyo’s wonderfully landscaped parks and gardens. There’s nothing I enjoy more than taking a walk, and my favorite places are either gardens and parks or streets lined with distinct architecture. Korea has some of both, but it’s not bursting at the seams.
Worst city I’d never want to visit again or live in: Shenyang. In the winter, concrete smokestacks belch dirty shades of white, gray, and black smoke into the air in every direction. Lacking respirators, my companion and I admired the sooty cityscape from the windows of our high-rise hotel room.
I recalled hearing about Lonely Planet somewhere but couldn’t pin it down. Now I do; this was the travel guide that apparently had a bunch of made up entries, and it does seem suspicious with it’s lack of detail regarding some places.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7346101.stm
A quote from LP:
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/wo.....tineraries
“A good outing in Seoul involves eating, drinking and getting naked with the locals.”
OK, for what’s worth, 99% of white men go to Asia with a hint about Asian girls.
True.
But the real questions is - Do you really have to depict a particular country as a sex-tourism destination?
And why do guys brag about “getting naked with the locals” but they never mention how much they had to pay for it?
The quote about getting naked with the locals is a reference to Korea’s bathhouse culture, not sex tourism.
I’ve never had a problem with Lonely Planet. God forbid I should say this on this thread, but I actually enjoyed the guide that I had, and it was the one that I bought before I came to Korea for the first time in 2005.
It’s ironic that people commenting here bemoan LP for pointing people to the same old same old, but then those same places are noted as the most interesting places to go. That’s generally why tourists go to an area- because it’s interesting.
Seoul’s an ok city. I don’t have extreme feelings toward it either way except that I do think it’s ugly and sometimes hard to breathe. I do think however that it is not a very tourist-friendly city, and it’s not an easy city to navigate, compounded with a lack of resources such as good maps or tourist information centers. Wasn’t there an article posted here a while back debating a new Romanization of Hangul? Didn’t the same article point out that the Romanization was designed for Koreans, not for Foreigners?
Whoever wrote the edition of the Korean guide that I own lacks imagination. It’s as if the editor had forced his spoiled teenage son to write the book as punishment.
#15 - I joined Cyworld last year and was never asked to send a copy of my ID. If that is now the case, then it’s changed since last year.
Last time I went to Seoul, I noticed barf all over the street. I guess people didn’t like their food too much. Barf, dog poop and black plastic bags blowing around. Seoul is dirty.
#48
I thought Marseilles could beat out Paris and Nice for the “nasty” crown when I was in France.
Strasbourg is my fave French city, but maybe I’m just a closet Kraut….
Be fair, folks. LP is not intended for residents. It’s intended for backpackers, who operate on limited resources and more limited brain power.
#60, Sonagi,
The thing that really makes Seoul is the mountains. Taking the mountains out of Seoul would be like concreting over the harbor in Sydney. Namsan couldn’t be more in the middle of the city and Bugaksan and Inwangsan are a beautiful frame for the areas around Gyeongbokgung. Not to mention the Bukhansan and Namhansan parks and Gwanaksan.
The palaces, Jongmyo, Bukchon, Namsangol and Cheonggyecheon are all great but the main thing is the mountains.
New York has the iconic skyline and is surrounded by water yes, but I wouldn’t say the part around Manhattan is the most attractive harbor as it’s quite industrial. Compare it to Stockholm or Sydney say.
The New York subway is the dirtiest I’ve ever been on, dirtier than London’s and that’s saying something. My favorite was Wall Street station where it’s like you’re in a sewer and then you step out onto Wall Street, the capitalist centre of the world (actually I heard they were renovating it recently – so I don’t know about now).
My top-six city list was based on aesthetics alone, not other things like practicality and quality of food. Actually my ex-firm’s headquarters were in New York so I spent quite some time there doing the kind of things that Americans would think were cool: staying in the Peninsula Hotel, receptions at the Waldorf=Astoria, visiting Madison Square Gardens, partying at the top of the Rockefeller Center and trying to get into clubs that don’t want you. It was amusing having a TV in the bathtub and more telephones in my room than I could ever hope to use but the firm’s offices on Times Square were like stepping back into the 1970’s.
But it wasn’t really my scene. The best thing about flying to the New York office from London was getting up at 5am and going for a run in Central Park (jetlag can be a beautiful thing). For a city that supposedly never sleeps, it was awfully quiet in the mornings. I once tried to change some money at around 9pm and it wasn’t going to happen. New York basically makes the final every year of “World’s most arrogant city” where it usually faces off against Paris. The opening lines of the Late Show say it all.
I stayed the night once in New York at my own expense and the cheapest place I could find was the West Side YMCA at something like $80 a night. I don’t know much about Seoul (never needed it) but I know you can get a decent room right by Gwangalli Beach in Busan for $30 without too much effort.
The other cool thing in New York was taking the train up the Hudson River to West Point and upstate. New York City’s definitely on the list of places you should visit, but it doesn’t break into the top six most beautiful.
Please, don’t put Seoul in the same basket as Vienna or Stockholm…is like putting kimchi at the same level as Belgium chocolate or Portuguese Port Wine…
#60, Sonagi, you might not think this is relevant but I was just looking at the list of UNESCO world heritage sites. There’s three in Stockholm and the whole center of Vienna is listed, along with Schonbrunn Palace. Seoul has 2+2 (Gangwhado and Hwaseong aren’t really in Seoul) and New York has only the Statue of Liberty. Surprisingly London has four (Greenwich, Kew, the Tower and Westminster). Tokyo has none.
“but I know you can get a decent room right by Gwangalli Beach in Busan for $30″
On New years eve last year I found a cheap hotel for 45,000 won at Gwangalli beach looking onto the bridge. We had to walk around to find a decent one not full though. And we didn’t have to share a room with backpackers who were to busy for hygiene. And I had the time of my life. Chilly but still great fun. I get Eunjin’s Rio reference, you really have to go up the neighbouring mountain range to fully appreciate how the urban sprawl seems to flow out of the mountains into the bay. I just wish more Korean beaches wore as pristinely maintained
“New York City’s definitely on the list of places you should visit, but it doesn’t break into the top six most beautiful.”
Au contraire.
NYC is beloved by travelers from all over the world and attracts 44 million tourists visit each year, making it the world’s 3rd most visited city. Compare this to a mere 6 million in Seoul.
A simple stroll down the street reveals architectural wonders that are simply nowhere to be found in cities like Seoul. New York has architecturally significant buildings in a wide range of styles. Many of the city’s neighborhoods and landmarks are known around the world.
Central Park is an incredible wonder of urban planning. Speaking of urban planning, the layout of NYC streets is an unparalleled undertaking.
As for the subways, despite the fact that they are among the world’s oldest, and the largest rapid transit system in the world when measured by the number of stations in operation, with 468, and the third-largest when measured by annual ridership (1.5 billion passenger trips in 2006), they remain extremely functional and safe. They have also been cleaned up considerably and simply put Seoul’s subway system to shame in terms of convenience. It is also remarkable because nearly all of the system remains open 24 hours per day (though in some cases with significant differences in routings from the daytime network), in contrast to the overnight shutdown common to systems in most cities, including London, Paris, Washington, DC, and Tokyo.
Not only is NYC beautiful but it is a wealth of culture. New York’s food culture, influenced by the city’s immigrants and large number of dining patrons, is one of the world’s most diverse. H. G. Wells wrote that “to tell the story of New York would be to write a social history of the world.”
The city’s population density, low automobile use and high transit utility make it among the most energy efficient cities in the United States. Mass transit use in New York City is the highest in United States and gasoline consumption in the city is at the rate the national average was in the 1920s. New York City’s high rate of transit use saved 1.8 billion gallons of oil in 2006. New York saves half of all the oil saved by transit nationwide.
NYC is also the safest big city in the US and in comparison to may European cities. Violent crime in New York City decreased more than 75% from 1993 to 2005. It is infinately safer than Seoul in terms of traffic.
One other great thing about NYC is that it has an unmistakable character, a personality which soulless Seoul utterly lacks. Comparing Seoul to NYC is like comparing the Hope Diamond to a jagged stone.
In objective terms of beauty, the NYC skyline is acknowledged to be among the most visually impactful in the world. It is ranked # 3 by diserio.com of the top 15 skylines after Hong Kong and Chicago, which I dispute. It is ranked #2 by the Emporis ranking of cities by the visual impact of their skylines.
It is also consistantly listed among the top restaraunt cities in the world. Forbes Traveller rates it #1. Food & Wine rates it #3 after Tokyo and Paris.
Food & Wine’s listing:
1. Tokyo
2. Paris
3. New York City
4. London
5. Barcelona
6. Sydney
7. Madrid
8. Chicago
9. Stockholm
10. Vancouver, Canada
I have never heard any spontaneous expressions of enthusiasm about Seoul from Seoulites themselves. We expats are generally more inclined to praise the place than the locals are.
@#70, Eujin:
Seoul has a superb natural geographical location surrounded by mountains and bisected by a wide river. The ring of mountains is beautiful. When you can see them. Seoul is at its best after a rain has cleared the pollution from the skies.
Regarding UNESCO World Heritage sites, I’m not surprised that NYC had only one listing since the city is less than 400 years old. As for Seoul’s two World Heritage sites, Changdeokkung and Jongmyo, only Changdeokkung is worth a visit, IMHO. Seoul’s palaces are a plus - each alone less interesting than the Forbidden City, but together they rival Beijing’s premier tourist attraction in size and architectural appeal, and their much lower entrance fees make repeated visits feasible. As for Jongmyo, I was bored to tears fifteen minutes into that annual Confucian ceremony on the first Sunday in May. It’s one of those things that you do once just to say you did it. While Tokyo doesn’t have any sites in the immediate area, Nikko is an easy day trip, comparable to Suwon’s Hwaseong. I poked around the ruins on Ganghwado for a couple of days. Interesting for ancient history buffs and Korean residents looking for a less explored destination but not a reason to choose to visit Seoul or live there.
Yes, but architecture is a big part of aesthetics for me. NYC’s architectural appeal isn’t just its skyline. It’s the historical neighborhoods that function as outdoor museums showcasing popular styles in different periods.
I think NYC outranks Seoul, but I wouldn’t put either in a list of the most beautiful major cities in the world. Seoul is much cleaner than NYC and the mountains are lovely, but its neighborhoods and streets aren’t visually striking. Part of the problem is that homes in most neighborhoods are shielded by high brick or concrete walks, so there’s little to see. Apartments are a little more cheerful with landscaped open spaces, but the structures lack originality. The uniformity stands out compared to some other large Asian cities.
Sonagi - Can it be that this uniformity is a reflection of the Korean aesthetic? I get the impression that Koreans place less of a premium on variety than other people. They actually seem to dislike it. Who was that Dutch business culture guru who said that Koreans score highest on “uncertainty avoidance”?
Consider, for example, how many restaurants in Seoul (not just downmarket kimbap places either) are as alike in furniture, cutlery, dishes and decor as if they were part of a single chain. Koreans seem to like this. They sit down and order as confidently and quickly as if they’d been going to the same place for years. Whereas your Westerner on a first time to a restaurant is looking around actually trying to find new and different touches. Perhaps the same thing goes for their streets. It I’ll bet that Seoul has a higher percentage of streets/street blocks with the same assortment of shops and services (noraebang, PC bang, coffee shop, etc) than other cities do. The result being that the Seoulite never feels uncertain in an unfamiliar part of town the way that a New Yorker would.
personally, I think of Seoul like a really beautiful woman, or an extremely handsome guy who wears sweatpants every day, gets $5.00 haircuts, and doesn’t shower daily — a few simple enough adjustments and Seoul could go from an also-ran to a contender, from a “could be” to a “definitely is”.
Chunggyecheon is a step in the right direction, as is restoring/improving the han river waterfront.
Other simple things that could be done:
1. cleaning up, improving, and promoting all the mountains to climb within city limits — the mountains are great, and subway accessible, but they aren’t well advertised, and the way to the paths are poorly marked (follow the neon socks). Strict enforcement for littering on mountains especially.
2. develop the wall that goes through the north of Seoul, that goes through inwang mountain, samchung park, and all the way to dongdaemun-gu, into a single long walk with easy access and clear markings, and promote it as a mountain/heritage site.
3. improve signage and markings in other languages than Korean and English (this could/should also be done at bus and train stations, for tourists who want to go out of the city and climb mountains or see sights around the country)
4. offer free courses in OTHER languages than English to service industry full-timers who work in tourist hotspots.
5. enforce and/or create and/or strengthen laws about littering, public drunkenness, public urination, and basic public assholery, and set up drunk tanks in every police station, so that those drunk bastards who start “ugly korea” scenes spend the night in the drunk tank, and learn to fucking respect the police.
6. actually enforce the laws in the books against illegal signage: the greatest design in the world becomes an eyesore when it’s covered with neon signs and obscured from view by inflatable, lit phalluses.
If Seoul washed her face, put on some nicer clothes, and stood up straight, she’d look awesome, and no longer feel the need to tag little inferiority complex markers on every site:
“Seoul Forest: Central Park of Korea”
“Namsan Tower: Space Needle of Korea”
“Seoul Art Center: Sydney Opera House of Korea”
“Apgujeong: Beverly Hills of Korea”
and so on. Seoul Forest: the Seoul Forest of Seoul. Fuck correlatives and be who you are, I say!
Just one more point about aesthetics - beauty is, to an extent, in the eye of the beholder. European classical art, music, and architecture is admired around the world. I enjoy classical European music but find the indoor decor too ornate and ostentatious, and have zero interest in classical European art, which focuses on the human form. My eyes prefer the elegant simplicity of classical East Asian structures and the visually appealing interplay of geometric patterns and color that defines Islamic art and some types of modern art. Whenever I visit Washington DC’s National Gallery of Art, I plow right past the halls of Dutch still lifes and the endless portrait parade of somber-looking white people and head straight for the vibrant Frank Stella canvases and sensual George O’Keefe close-ups of flowers. Aesthetics is in the eye of the beholder.
I think San Francisco is a beauty. The cultural impact of the city and the surrounding Bay Area is astounding.
Just had to mention because nobody was.
“roboseyo” in #80 makes very good observations regarding Seoul. His second comment has great merit in that a unifying motif for Seoul could be and should be the four gates. Each gate should be rebuilt and cultivated around a theme for each gate. This would be uniquely Korean and Seoul but instead we have only seen the usual tall building (giant penis) planning or the simplistic notion of redeveloping unique places (Insa-dong, Nakwon music center, the food alley in Chongno-3-ga) into some sterile kick-back venture.
Frankly, the on-going corruption in Seoul City, in terms of what gets built, has had a lasting effect upon the nature of the city and it lack of appeal.
There’s also the basic incompatibility between the sort of restaurant-and-shop-oriented place Japanese & Chinese tourists want for a weekend tour and the sort of place that would tempt a Westerner into putting Seoul on his itinerary. No number of historical sites will interest the average Chinese tourist, for example.
@83, Korea has only been modern since 1996. Basically Korea’s truly modern age has been controlled by the left wing with 5 of those years completely destroyed by Roh.
Roboseyo–exactly! You’re like my twin brother! I’ve been saying the same things for years (not that anyone is listening, but hey).
Just do some basic things as you said and Seoul will become a much more inviting place to visit.
#77, Sonagi,
“Regarding UNESCO World Heritage sites, I’m not surprised that NYC had only one listing since the city is less than 400 years old.”
That’s basically only 200 years younger than Seoul. New York was the largest city in the US at the time Hwaseong was built. While New York was installing it’s subway Hausmann was mapping out the Parisian street plan and the Viennese were building the Ringstrasse.
And Jongmyo’s not too bad. I can understand why you’d be bored watching the ceremony, but if you enjoy taking walks, Jongmyo and the bridge over to Changgyeonggung isn’t bad for just $3. And right in the centre of town.
I’ve said before that I’m not too down about the apartment blocks. The best thing would be to have less people but if you’re going to have a city of 13 million I think it’s better to stack them all neatly on top of one another rather than have them spread out all over the place endlessly like LA or tucked into every single square inch like Osaka. When you really get down to it a lot of beautiful cities look mainly like Tensta, Clichy sous Bois or Quartaccio. From my apartment window I can see Namsan, Bukhansan, the 63 building and about 500 churches. I think it’s pretty cool.
One of the impressive things about Seoul and Koreans in general is that the apartment complexes aren’t the war-zones you see in places like Paris. At least not for the ones I’ve been to. The elevators all work, there’s no grafitti, no burnt out cars or kids hanging around looking menacing and then of course there’s the hills out the back…
#80, roboseyo, I hear what you’re saying. Maybe I’m just a wierdo who appreciates the underappreciated. A really beautiful woman in sweatpants? Sounds good to me.
“I think NYC outranks Seoul, but I wouldn’t put either in a list of the most beautiful major cities in the world. Seoul is much cleaner than NYC and the mountains are lovely, but its neighborhoods and streets aren’t visually striking.”
Ahem. When was the last time you’ve been in NYC? Compared to Seoul, Manhatten is pristine. Not to mention the quality of its air and water, which in Seoul are absolutely atrocious. And the streets are far dirtier.
Seoul was founded as a capital 600 years ago, but the city did not arise out of nothing. The area was first settled about 2,000 years ago, was a Baekje capital and a major city during Goryeo. There was probably nothing more than some longhouses when the Dutch traded $24 worth of glass beads for Manhattan.
You’re comparing a fast-growing young city building infrastructure to accommodate swarms of newcomers with the achievements of two mature imperial capitals.
Agreed. Prefer tidy apartment complexes to endless urban sprawl. Singapore also stacks its dense population on top of each other yet manages to avoid the cookie-cutter look with diverse structures.
seoul is ugly because its modernization happen to start at the time when the western architecture happen to be at its ugliest, and somehow the koreans themselves haven’t figured out/found the need to get out of that hiatus.hopefully this will change now that their bellies are full.
any lovely historic wooden buildings have been burned down many times over by invaders over centuries as any of you will know.
it’s not tourist friendly, because it’s a working city(with real people, who cannot speak english very well, not making their living on visiting backpackers or chic shoppers) but nothing wrong with this as long as koreans themselves don’t constantly compare/worry over their image like they seem to.
the fact that it’s maintained its hermit kingdom status even in modern times partly contributed to the unique/distinct contemporary culture that other western friendly countries in asia seem to like.
it’s like korean food, often much better than its first impression, that one can come to hate or love. but unfortunately this sort of information is not very useful in a guide such as the lonely planet.
#89, Sonagi, I’m happy to go with “New York is basically only 200 years younger than Seoul” because I’m happy to go with
Seoul is about 600 years old. The American race didn’t spontaneously pop into existence out of nowhere; the Commissioner’s Plan of 1811 and Washington DC attest to that. You seem to be implying that Seoul was not a “fast-growing young city building infrastructure” when Jongmyo and Changdeokgung were built.
The Hausmannization in Paris and the Ringstrasse in Vienna were being built at a time when the populations of both cities were increasing extremely rapidly.
True, both cities had been around for a long time beforehand, and New York grew from a much smaller city to a much larger city, but 200 years is a long time in urban planning and Paris and Vienna were responding to similar pressures that led New York to build its subway.
None of this proves anything of course. It is ultimately, as you say, a matter of subjective judgment.
Not implying that. Just pointing out that when the founders of the Yi Dynasty located their capital in Seoul, they didn’t start building from scratch. There was already a long-established city in place.
Korea, Austria, and France are old countries with distinct cultural traditions in food, clothing, music, art, and architecture. The grand government buildings in our nation’s capital are styled in Greek Revival, and UNESCO World Heritage sites Monticello and the University of Virginia are likewise inspired by European architecture. At the turn of the 20th century, America still took its culture cues from The Continent. Authentic American culture was mostly confined to folk culture. Given the criteria for cultural World Heritage sites, it is no surprise that in the US, natural sites outnumber cultural ones.
Seoul is 600 years old. Before Seoul, there was Hanyang, before Hanyang, there was Hanseong, before Hanseong, there was Namgyeong, before Namgyeong there was Wiryeseong. Read about the continuous history of civilization in the upper Han River http://www.economicexpert.com/.....n:Area.htm.
The link didn’t work. Try this one.
To chime in on the whole US cities and UNESCO thing, I agree that we shouldn’t be surprised to see fewer US cultural and architectural sites on UNESCO’s list of World Heritage Sites compared to, say, Europe, but there are a number of things that I do find bewildering.
In particular, if you look at the list, you’ll find such relative modern sites such as Le Havre, France; Bauhaus and its Sites in Weimar and Dessau; the Historic Centre of Riga (most for Art Nouveau); Victor Horta’s Art Nouveau townhouses in Brussels; Tel Aviv’s White City (Bauhaus); and Brasília:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Havre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bauhaus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riga
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Horta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_City_(Tel_Aviv)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasilia
I don’t wish to take anything away from these sites, but if THOSE sites made the cut (and it’s not like Europe didn’t have enough listed sites alread), then CERTAINLY New York and Chicago’s historic and architecturally important skylines deserve to be there, as does the Art Deco district of Miami Beach.
My guess is that this is at least partially due to the fact that the United States withdrew from UNESCO in ‘84, and only rejoined in 2003. I’m also assuming the US hasn’t been especially diligent in pushing the listing of its cultural sites with UNESCO.
Sonagi,
Oh come on, you’re just making excuses now. I can’t see anything in the official criteria
for cultural sites that rules out stuff less than 400 years old. A lot of the things you were saying about the architecture and old neighborhoods in New York would seem to fit in quite well with things like ii, v or vi.
I see that Lunenburg and the old center of Quebec made the list, as did multiple colonial sites in Mexico.
Maybe the reason that the US doesn’t nominate more cultural sites is because they want the freedom to modify or knock them down whenever it suits. They could easily have added Ellis Island to the Statue of Liberty listing and no one is going to be moving the Empire State Building any time soon. The UN, represented by its headquarters, is surely a “masterpiece of human creative genius”
No one in their right mind would say that Ho Chi Minh City is only 33 years old. The difference between Seoul and Wiryeseong is a little more than just a name change.
I agree with Robert.
If you’re going to talk about the wonderful mountains around Seoul, you should also mention on many days they’re barely or not even visible. The smog in Seoul is awful.
I love the mountains, but tourists don’t come to a city to hike the mountains. This is the last thing on most tourists’ minds.
IMO, only a Korean could put Seoul in the top 10.
Reminds me of one my students insisting that Jeju is the best island in the world — “even better than Hawaii!” she insisted.
I lived on Jeju — it’s WAY overrated — by Koreans of course. There’s some nice stuff there, but there’s plenty of ugly crap, terrible buildings, and in the cities, you may as well be in Daegu.
“My guess is that this is at least partially due to the fact that the United States withdrew from UNESCO in ‘84, and only rejoined in 2003. I’m also assuming the US hasn’t been especially diligent in pushing the listing of its cultural sites with UNESCO.
Probably because the US doesn’t need to attract tourists. It has plenty already. It’s like finding a dentist in the Yellow Pages — don’t go to the guy with the biggest ad!
I did not know that about the US falling out with UNESCO.
Reminds me of a Chinese friend who says the Nobel Peace Prize went through a dodgy patch when they gave awards to the Dalai Lama and Gorbachev (he broke up the USSR). Perhaps some round here would say the same thing about Kim Dae Jung.
Norwegians eh? What do they know?
Re #98, I apologize if that sounds bad. I mean, from my experience, people often over-estimate their own country.
When I first landed in Seoul, I found it bewildering, noisy, dirty, and difficult to find good food. Now that