A group of Cal State University Fresno students visiting Korea for two weeks to learn about Korean culture taught Korean kindergarteners in Busan that Dokdo is our land. Said participant Ms. Torres:
“유치원 아이들에게 동화를 들려주면서 세계지도도 함께 보여줬습니다. 그리고 아이들에게 독도는 당연히 한국지도에 들어가야 한다고 말했습니다”
“아이들의 맑은 눈을 떠올리며 한국에 작은 도움이라도 주기 위해 다른 외국 학생들과 함께 힘을 모아 플래카드를 제작했다”
While the kindergarteners were listening to a story, we looked at a world map, and we said that Dokdo naturally belonged on a Korean map.
With the children’s bright eyes open wide, we worked together to make a placard to help out Korea a little.
The US university students then held up their “We love Dokdo” sign at a Busan baseball game. Awwww. Even after so many years of reading the Korean media, I’m still amazed that a story like this is not only posted on the front page of the Chosun online but with a larger, attention-grabbing headline.
Relating this story to the recent post on expats criticizing Korea, Dokdo is one issue that divides Koreans and present/former expats. It’s not that most expats dispute Korea’s possession of the rocks. It’s that expats think Koreans overreact to Japanese claims.
103 Comments
Wow, UC Fresno. Such school does not exist — it must be Cal State Fresno, otherwise known as Fresno State Bulldogs.
Correction noted, thank you.
Well, yeah. You couldn’t make a stronger argument about the islet being Korean territory than by mentioning the Korean police officers stationed there. Problem is, the Korean government uses it at its advantage. It’s a sure way to divert public attention from the real issues. People fall for it hook and sinker every time.
@2. No need for apologies — the error came from the original article.
The only people I know who are obsessed about Dokdo are all here at the Marmot’s Hole.
So much similarity in Korea/Japan claiming the “Dokdo” and China/Japan over “Diaoyutai” island. Many westerners accept the legimitacy of colonial Japanese past probably sided with Japanese government thus will not understand why so much “over reaction” from Chinese and Korean over these islands. Afterall, they think Japan lost their empire to US not to China and certainly not Korea.
There is NO misunderstanding that Japan is not doing himself a favor by toying around its colonial past glory.
Therefore, Chinese and Korean conscious (even the root of nationalism) will place Japan as enemy number ONE.
钓鱼台属于中国 and 독도는우리땅 is rally call, and exchange student like Ms Torres from Fresno State is smart enough to understand this sentiment.
Sad thing is such an event in China or Korea will take precedence by hijacking all other issues. Until Japan comes off like Germany someday by acknowledging their deed in WW2, conflicts over these “island” will continue.
Namuamitaba
Yonhap has a photo of the girl at the baseball game. This was one of the top stories on naver’s baseball page earlier today
http://news.naver.com/sports/i.....0002178480
Naive young persons
+
Degrees in Basket-Weaving from glorified community college in California
+
Teaching Dokto propaganda to kids who really should be learning to count to ten with their fingers.
= the Real Tragedy!
I now think it’s funny that the locals get so upset here over a couple chunks of rock that they already know they own. I have no sympathy for them about this anymore.
Koreans look foolish to the world when they cut off their pinkies, set themselves on fire and kill themselves over two pebbles in the sea that clearly belong to them.
Maybe it’s some kind of sport to the Japanese. In the end, it’s the Koreans who look like dumb asses. You’d think they know better by now, but nooo!!!
Korea pighting!!
“Many westerners accept the legimitacy of colonial Japanese past probably sided with Japanese government thus will not understand why so much “over reaction” from Chinese and Korean over these islands.”
Hmm, you do realize that some Westerners have lost their lives for having demanded Korean independence? And, don’t forget that some of us are Koreans, Chinese, Filipinos, Armenians, African Americans, Native Americans and Jews.
In any case, check article 9…
http://www.solon.org/Constitut.....CHAPTER_II
This is not about righting an historical wrong (you’re trivializing Japan’s past by suggesting that it could) as much as it is about nationalism and propaganda.
5. Yeah right. Sepend some time on the talk pages for ‘Liancourt Rocks’ over at Wikipedia.
It’s not an island and yeah, Koreans over-react.
#10
Last time I heard the JDA (Japanese Defense Agency) 自衛隊 has changed to Ministry of Defense.
#12
So?
#5
Presumably you haven’t yet seen the page 1 story today in “The Daily Focus” - the number 1 bestselling free paper (citation needed)that you can pick up outside all subway stations.
Marmots Holers are most definitely not the only ones who get their knickers in a knot over the rocks. Not by a LONG shot.
Oh, and I think that it is important that Korea keeps the islets because it places the international boundary closer to the center of the sea. A boundary located further west would cause real tension.
#13
From constitution of Japan:
“In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained”
Why change the status quo? Reason being reason. East Asian countries such as China and Korea has its doubt..so it is about everything.
#11: “Sepend some time on the talk pages for ‘Liancourt Rocks’ over at Wikipedia.”
Spending time on the talk pages for ‘Liancourt Rocks’ is the definition of being obsessed about Dokdo.
Where’s Bee Man? I wanna see Bee Man in the stands of this baseball game.
I think Milk-in-the-Face Man could switch over to Dokdo now that yankbeef is off the front page. MilkFace Man, show Japan your power!
“You couldn’t make a stronger argument about the islet being Korean territory than by mentioning the Korean police officers stationed there.”
Nowadays, territories are determined by treaty. Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea cites San Francisco Peace Treaty, which cites Potsdam Declaration, which further cites Cairo Declaration, which says “Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed. The aforesaid three great powers, mindful of the enslavement of the people of Korea, are determined that in due course Korea shall become free and independent.”
To claim Dokdo, Korea has to prove Dokdo belonged to Korea before 1905 when Japan declared Dokdo its territory. Otherwise, Japan cannot “take” Dokdo by violence or greed. However, when you look at the well-known Korean Imperial Edict 41 of 1900, which says Ulleungdo, Jukdo and Seokdo are Korean territory but fails to mention Dokdo, it is evident that Dokdo did not belong to Korea at that time.
Condoning illegal occupation will just give a dangerous precedent to the world.
Any ideas how many Nobel prize winners CSU Fresno has produced? Unless there is a Nobel for auto-body repair or welding, that is.
#16
“From constitution of Japan:
“In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained”
Why change the status quo? Reason being reason. East Asian countries such as China and Korea has its doubt..so it is about everything.”
Constitutional revision is a norm in democracy,especialy it was written by foreign occupational forces 60 years ago.
So that is not exactly changing status quo in sense of the nature of the political system.
However,China being super power and North Korea getting nuclear weapon undeniably is in the sense of East Asian geopolitics.
Anyway,we are about to come off more like Germany these days.The Germans have already restored military and draft system way back in 1955,long before Willy Brandt kneeled down before the Warsaw Ghetto Memorial in 1970.
Now if only China and Korea become more like France or Belgium….
#22
Good path for Japan to become a Germany but there is no kneeled down action from the Japanese PM before the memorial YET..so we shall see.
China becoming a superpower can only be checked by Germany like Japan and neutral state such a Korea. That’s way should be.
#20
Illegal occupation? So it belongs to Japan because Japanese “spit on it (food) first”? Food is mine for long time and I am really hungry, so why shall I care who spit on it?
Although I have tons of reason to say otherwise but many in the hole and other blogs probably have done it before so please look it up yourself before making such as argument. Enough said.
“Good path for Japan to become a Germany but there is no kneeled down action from the Japanese PM before the memorial YET”
You might wanted to know that Judeo-Christian way od showing remorse as kneeling down isn’t exactly a Japanese tradition.Instead we bow and that can be seen almost every single time Japanese prime minister visiting either China or Korea which eventually led them to the pilgrimage to the various war/colonial related memorials.
Those who don’t see them chose not to see them.And “Germany” is such a convenient stick to bash Japan without any harm nor expense,no one wants to drop that,including the Germans.
“Food is mine for long time and I am really hungry”
People call it theft. Illegal occupation does not bring you any title.
20. The UN has already determined the status of Liancourt Courts/Dokdo/Takeshima crap… It is an Islet not an Island… LAND THAT CANNOT NATURALLY SUSTAIN PEOPLE CANNOT BE CLAIMED AS TERRITORY… Secondly, the islets in question were never taken by force or greed. Thirdly, your argument that it is not listed in an Edict is facetious. Jeju Island was also not mentioned in that edict - I guess that is still part of Japan, too?
For more humour, check out the Korea Times for… well, it’s just odd. Apparently the US Congress Library was going to change the name to Liancourt Rocks on their books… Funny they don’t mention the official name in US Documents isn’t Dokdo anyway, it’s Hornet Rocks… http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/ww.....27654.html
Aceface,
You gonna be kidding..East Asians bow every freakin day..Japanese politicans doing such an act when visiting China or Korea rather done with sincerely or not is good gesture. If you really want to express apology..YOU KNEEL DOWN!!! 跪 first! However it seems bowing is more than enough for you!! Sorry it doesn’t work that way!!
“Convenient stick” PUHLEASE..action speaks louder than word!! It is so OBVIOUS to everyone except face saving Japanese.
Hmmm, so you’re are expecting Japan’s prime minister, a head of government, to kneel before foreign government officials or citizens. When has a Chinese leader knelt while delivering an apology? Could you give us some examples, please?
J: “Nowadays, territories are determined by treaty.”
Cogent argument. To me the argument that Dokdo is our land because it was at some time in the past to me smacks of argumentum ad antiquitatem.
The most cogent and honest argument to the contrary is that possession constitutes defacto ownership, since it is far easier to maintain possession of a thing than it is to take possession of it from someone else.
However, Korean schools employ such techniques of mind control as argumentum verbosium - a technique of persuasion that involves overwhelming people with such a volume of material that the argument sounds plausible, superficially appears to be well-researched, and it is so laborious to untangle and check supporting facts that the argument might be allowed to slide by unchallenged.
Dokdo may seem petty and laughable to foreign observers but it in fact serves a serious purpose in Korean society. It is one of the key elements of mind control in contemporary Korean society, and is used to inculcate impressionable young minds to hatred and bias.
All the anti-American fallacies serve the same purpose. The concept is that Korean identity is defined by a sense of persecution by the huns at the gate. Therefore, national unity and mind control is established by appealing to the persecution complex.
1951 map made by japanese goverment
http://www.historyfoundation.o.....0515_7.jpg
Until 1952, Japan did not recognized dokdo belong to Japan.
even Japanese official goverment map is not recognized dokdo belong to Japan.
Japan start claiming since 1952.
since 1952, japanese made new theory, “historically, takeshima belong to japan!”
this is not mind control.
if Japanese start claiming “texas belong to Japan!” suddenly. can you accept this?
1951 map made by japanese goverment
http://www.historyfoundation.o.....0515_7.jpg
Until 1952, Japan did not recognized dokdo belong to Japan.
even Japanese official goverment map is not recognized dokdo belong to Japan.
Japan start claiming since 1952.
since 1952, japanese made new theory, “historically, takeshima belong to japan!”
Sonagi,
No one done so and probably very difficult for East Asian leader type to do that!! As far as Chinese leader is concerned, Wen Jiabao’s performance in earthquake relief is best you can get!! Then again when was last time Communist Chinese leaders making apology in any form? To whom? its own people..give me a break! So you are saying why Japanese leaders are no different? Yes. They is no difference. Therefore, suspicious and tensions will forever remain in relationship with Japan.
However, to get the respect and become a TRUE east Asian power which Japan deserves to be..Kneel down from the leader is a start and it is the most sincere form of apology. Again face saving..to difficult!!
Between USA and British, some rocks exist.
however, USA and British calm down each other.
they don’t claim rock belong to their.
Korean already concede EEZ in a Japanese goverment favor in 1998.
Now japanese turn, Japan shoul calm down this dispute.
bcoz, Japanese fisherman already can fishing dokdo island by Korea’s goverment permit.
“Then again when was last time Communist Chinese leaders making apology in any form? To whom? its own people..give me a break! So you are saying why Japanese leaders are no different? Yes. They is no difference. Therefore, suspicious and tensions will forever remain in relationship with Japan”
Well,there’s a big difference,For we apologize all the time in all forms.
But kneeling down in Chinese culture? That’s a form of humiliatiing someone.Not a way to reconcile by any means.Did the red guard forgave the sins of “the running dogs of collectivist right wingsers”?
Even take a look at the way Chinese netizens are hacking on Tibetans,who do kneel down for some different reason.
Suspicion and tensions with Japan are must for Chinese,because they want Japan to remain as the bad guy No.1 in the neighborhood instead of them or their acolyte,North Korea.
South Koreans have some other different reasons for maintaining the suspicion for their “cry baby gets extra cnady”Japan policy.
And both need out-of-the-house enemy to put the defunctional family into one pieces.
Equating acts of Fenqings and Red guards to War crimes of colonial Japanese government!! Gee..I don’t know if anyone wants to buy into that comparison. If you belive that, you are denying the systematic crimal acts of Japanese imperial army did in East Asia. I hope you are not!!
Need to be humiliated first then everyone will shut the f**k up. Japan “convienetly” set up for China and Korean to solve their internal problems..but why would Japan wanted to be played like that? not unless Japan wants it that way…
#26, Bipolar Mindscrew
“the islets in question were never taken by force or greed.”
Great. Then they belong to Japan.
“Thirdly, your argument that it is not listed in an Edict is facetious. Jeju Island was also not mentioned in that edict - I guess that is still part of Japan, too?”
Korea Imperial Edict 41 of 1900 is an amendment to former Imperial Edict that lists all the counties of Korean Empire. In the Edict 41, they set up Uldo County, which does not include Dokdo. If Dokdo belonged to Korean Empire, to which county did it belong? Since it did not belong to Uldo County or any other county in previous county-list, Dokdo did not belong to Korean Empire. By the way, Ulleungdo is the nearest island from Dokdo.
#30,31 Nakagawa
Your map does not say it is a map by Japanese Government.
“Japan start claiming since 1952.”
Come on. Japan formally declared Dokdo Japanese territory in 1905.
Koreans are so pissed off this time that they’ve removed a Japanese condom add:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/ww.....27686.html
Ha~ now that they don’t use condoms they’ll become more and more and occupy Dokdo
Note the reason why they removed the ad:
“They did not have a picture related to a condom, but had phrases such as “No. 1 in Japan.””
“Equating acts of Fenqings and Red guards to War crimes of colonial Japanese government!! Gee..I don’t know if anyone wants to buy into that comparison. If you belive that, you are denying the systematic crimal acts of Japanese imperial army did in East Asia. I hope you are not!!”
Well,I’m not relating Japanese warcirmes with angry Chinese trolls and Cultural revolution.
I just used 憤青 and redguards as an example of how much the Chinese take a positive slant on”kneeling down” as an expression of remorse.Of which lead me to be highly skeptic.(I also was not amused “that is a start” thing.How many years are we doing this apology business? We must be at the middle of the road or some where by now.)
Tomorrow these CSUF tools will be at a junior high school to teach who started the Korean war, and in what year. Only then will they be doing useful work.
J from Japan: what is your view on the long-standing dispute between Japan and Russia over the Kuril Islands? Thanks…
This is not an issue of continuing Japanese imperialism. An imperialist country needs an army, a navy and an airforce capable of agression and projection beyond it’s borders, something Japan neither has nor is pursuing. For those that say Japan’s territorial disputes with neighbouring countries is an indication of imperialism, I would counter that most of the countries in the area have disputes with countries nearby, and that Japan has ruled out using force to assert it’s claims, something no other country has done. The “imperialism” meme is just a tool to bash Japan and get it to give up the claims it sees as legitimate.
As for Dokdo, Koreans didn’t even know that it existed, didn’t claim it, and don’t have a single map or document detailing it. Dokdo is a Japanese territory taken by force by Korea in Japans weakness after WW2. Keep in mind at this time they were also trying to take the Japanese island of Tsushima, claiming it is historical Korean land, just as they claim Dokdo is.
There is no evidence that japan occupied that island.
Well, You Japanese say like this :
“1951 Japanese goverment was not a Japanese goverment!”
http://www.historyfoundation.o.....0515_7.jpg
This Map drawed by House of Representatives of Japan.
“How many years are we doing this apology business? We must be at the middle of the road or some where by now”
Never too much and never too late..Why should there be a sentiment of enough is enough? How many times you have to say sorry? Until someone trully understand you really meant it..Will Red guards and CCP leadership make apology like Korean military juntas did to their citizens? I think so. Probably not anytime soon but damanged wound of Chinese will never healed, hence CCP will never get credit for its economic success, not even olympic can help!! No respect for CCP!! That goes with Japanese as well!! Once again “face saving” 面子问题 is the problem.
#16,
You didn’t answer my question. Why do you imagine that there is an insidious plan behind the name change? It’s just a name change, for heaven’s sake! Government’s change the names of their ministries all the time.
#26,
So you’re telling me that the US can just waltz into the Canadian Arctic because the islands there can’t sustain anything by a few polar bears?
@shakuhachi
“Koreans didn’t even know that it existed”
You do not know well.
many of official record of Korea mentioned dokdo’s existence. and it belong to Korea.
in 1905, japan incorporate this island, shortly before it occupied Korea itself. when japan incorporate this island, they hide this fact. in 1906, ulleungdo governor know this, and protest to this. send protest document to central goverment. govermern answer “it is korea territory. japan behavior is totally null.” in 1905, diplomatic right of korea was deprived by japan. by sneaky way, japan blocked korea’s goverment protest.
your claim start from “korean did not know this islands existence for thounsands of years”. but it is impossible. i have many evidence. and “Dokdo” name record first found by 1904 Japanese Navy Docuement 軍艦新高號行動日誌. “Korean called Liancourt rocks as Dokdo.” When 1905 Japan incorporate this island, they hide this fact.
in 1906, Ulleungdo governor knew this, and protest to this. send document to joseon central goverment. “Dokdo is our territory, Japan’s behavior is totally null.” in 1905, diplomatic right of korea was deprived by japan. by sneaky way, japan blocked korea’s goverment protest.
in 1894, Japanese newspaper ’sanin chubo’, Japanese newspaper writer ’sato’, writed about ulleungdo province. this news title name is “exploration of korea ulleung province” This news said, “Liancourt rocks belong to Ulleungdo province. it is territory of Korea.” - Game over-
Nakagawa, Japanese documents mention Dokdo, but not Korean ones. Anyway, please post links to your sources then we can start debunking them one by one.
The Korean documents you say mention Dokdo are just documents with the name changed to Dokdo. Usually they are talking about Ulleungdo or Jukdo.
“Koreans didn’t even know that it existed”
your claim start from “korean did not know this islands existence for thounsands of years”. but it is impossible.
Because, This island cleary visible from Ulleungdo.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com.....ungdo3.jpg
But this island is not visible from Territory of Japan.
HOW CAN KOREAN DID NOT KNOW THIS ISLAND EXISTENCE FOR THOUSNAD OF YEARS?
According to Common sensen, it it impossible claim that “Koreans didn’t even know that it existed”
@shakuhachi
name changed to Dokdo?
hahahha.. absurd you are..!
1904 japanese navy document
“Liacourt rock = Dokdo”
1906 Ullengdo governor claim
“Dokdo is our territory!”
OK?
can you understand?
It was not a Jukdo.
#40 James.
“J from Japan: what is your view on the long-standing dispute between Japan and Russia over the Kuril Islands? Thanks…”
Same opinion as that of Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan.
The unconditional surrender instrument signed on September 2, 1945 starts with saying, “We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China and Great Britain on 26 July 1945, at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers.”
The Potsdam Declaration mentioned above cites Cairo Declaration which says,
“The Three Great Allies are fighting this war to restrain and punish the aggression of Japan. They covet no gain for themselves and have no thought of territorial expansion.”
So, the Allies cannot expand their territory as a result of WW2. Therefore, the disputed 4 islands of the Kuril Islands are not Russian territory or Russia would expand its territory as a result of WW2.
Accodrding to SF treaty, SF treaty obey ‘Cairo Declaration’.
According to Cairo Declaration, Japan must give up territory. “The terms of the Cairo Declaration would be carried out and Japanese sovereignty would be limited to the islands of Honshū, Hokkaidō, Kyūshū, Shikoku, and such minor islands as the Allies determined.”
#44
Everything has reason and I am the believer that Japan taking step to get rid of the pacifist constitution drafted by U.S. Very routine and nothing wrong..internal Japanese stuff but neighbors are watching this with caution.
Nakagawa, if Dokdo belonged to Korea, why it did not mention the islands in Imperial Edict 41 of 1900?
In 1900, Korean Government Imperial Ordinance 41, Jukdo, Ulleung-do, Seok-do(Dokdo). 3 islands already incorporated to Ulleung province. Korea already Incorporated Jukdo in 1900.
calm down.
until Scapin 637,dokdo belong to korea.
but next final version removed.
SF treaty final version did not metioned it.
it does not mean dokdo belong to japan.
1. SF treaty draft version did not metioned dokdo belong to japan.
2. SF treaty draft version metioned dokdo belong to korea.
3. final version removed by japanese lobby. but it does not mentioned that dokdo belong to japan. (do not mistake)
therefore, korea obey previous version of sf treaty.
Even 1951 Map (drawed by Japanese goverment 衆議院)
http://www.historyfoundation.o.....0515_7.jpg
Dokdo was Officialy exclude in Territory of Japan.
“Why should there be a sentiment of enough is enough? How many times you have to say sorry? Until someone trully understand you really meant it”
Because you broght up “Germany”thing.
Chinese and Korean can exploit as much as they like from Japanese as long as they don’t “trully understand Japan apologized and really meant it” of which they probably won’t.I mean,why should they be?
Germany didn’t have to face any intellectual environment like this.Because they could expect some kind of acknowledgement from Europeans for any apology they’ve made.Ofcourse not that made the victim’s suspicion melt automatically.But if Germany has shared interest and security concern along with the rest of Europe,that was the secondry matter,for it was Europe’s interest to have stronger and more cooperative Germany.Germany was also lucky,because they shared common values with neighbors like respect for the human rights,democracy,rule of law and free press.And these made Europeans equally self criticsal on their own nationalism,whilst these are non existant here in East Asia.
#54 Nakagawa
“In 1900, Korean Government Imperial Ordinance 41, Jukdo, Ulleung-do, Seok-do(Dokdo). ”
Can you see the difference between Seokdo and Dokdo?
They are by no means the same.
This is the prime proof that Dokdo does not belong to Korea.
Nakagawa, Dokdo is visible from Ulleungdo only from the highest elevations - it is not normally visible. Koreans today have a political reason to see Dokdo so they go to the highest elevations and look for Dokdo but it doesn’t mean that the Koreans of the past did that, nor does it even mean that even if some Ulleungdo residents were aware of it existence that it was claimed by the Korean government. Koreans back then didn’t have zoom lens cameras either. Personally I think it is possible that some residents of Ulleugndo did know it existed, but it is conjecture because there are no documents or maps detailing it.
As for the names, actual Korean documents refer to Usando or other names, not Dokdo. These are not old names for Dokdo, they are other places altogether.
The Japanese naval vessel in 1904 you refer to was called the Niikata. They reported that the Koreans called the Liancourt Rocks Dokdo, and that the Koreans were working hunting sea lions on Japanese ships. The Koreans were around Dokdo because they were on Japanese boats, and that was the first time the word Dokdo has ever been recorded, probably because the people in Ulleungdo became aware of it’s existence. Before that in 1903 Koreans were calling it “Yanko”, which is what the Japanese were calling it at the time, according to The Fishery Guide of Sea around Korea (韓海通漁指針), published in 1903.
As for the governor of Ulleungdo and his complaint, if the Liancourt Rocks were really claimed by Korea, then he would have known it’s location. Instead he gave the wrong distance (40 km) from Ulleungdo in his report to the central government. The central government must not have known of it either because they did not correct his mistake. The governor would have known about the Liancourt Rocks because of the Koreans going there on Japanese boats. How could someone not know the location of a territory under his juristiction?
Again, no Korean document or map exists supporting the idea that Koreans even know about Dokdo, much less claimed it as their territory.
Seokdo is Dokdo.
According 1944 Japanese scholar academic source, In Korean dialect, ‘Seok’ is another name of ‘Dok’.
This is the prime proof that Dokdo does not belong to Korea.
Hahahaha… it is very absurd claim.
It is not only Imperial Ordinance but also 1905 Ullengdo Governer said “it is territory of Korea!”
even many of japanese source (before 1905), 韓海通漁指針, 最新韓國實業指針, 韓國新地理… said “liancourt Rocks are Part of Ullengdo province”
in 1894, Japanese newspaper ’sanin chubo’, Japanese newspaper writer ’sato’, writed about ulleungdo province. this news title name is “exploration of korea ulleung province” This news said, “Liancourt rocks belong to Ulleungdo province. it is territory of Korea.” - Game over-
#55
http://www.historyfoundation.o…..0515_7.jpg
You had better check the map you keep linking.
The map shows Korea, Taiwan, Liaodong Peninsula, Southern Sakhalin, and entire Kuril Islans belong to Japan.
I do not think Old Joseon could measure sea distance exactly. Japan was also Matushima and Takeshima distance were wrong. However, Daehanjiji, metioned about Usando. Usando is introduced as Ulleungdo’s sister island and it states “Usando is Southeast of that island Ulleungdo” This record as well as these are clear evidence that Usando does not refer to neither Jukdo Islet nor Gwaneumdo Islet as both of these are in northeastern positions.
Until 19 century, Korean did not know measure of Sea distance, measure of latitude and longitude. bcz, in that time, korea did ‘ a policy of seclusion from western’.
korean was not modernization country by western technology. so, they did not know werstern style latitude and longitude and sea distance measure.
However, Old Map of Korea always mentioned that Dokdo’s existence.
“Nakagawa, Dokdo is visible from Ulleungdo only from the highest elevations - it is not normally visible. ”
>> Well, old Ulleungdo people worked for fishing. they always sailing. so, it is impossible Ulleungdo people couldn’t found dokdo for thousands of years.
According to your logic, Korean did not go to Mountain of Ullengdo for thousands of years? any evidence?
Korean did not found Dokdo for thousands of years? any evidence?
Again, Korean document or map exists supporting the idea that Koreans know about Dokdo.
1. In 1876, Japanese government showed that Dokdo is Korean territory (朝鮮東海 岸圖)
2. UN Map (1946) Dokdo is Korean territory
3. In 1754 France map, In 1740 English map - Dokdo is Korean territory
4. In 1886, 朝鮮國全圖 shows that Dokdo is Korean terriroty.
5. In 1531, 新東國麗地承覽 shows that Dokdo is Korean territory
6. In 1785, 三國接攘之圖(Japanese map) shows that Dokdo is Korean territory.
I have more evidence..
So, Japanese can’t claim that korean did not found Dokdo.
#59
“Seokdo is Dokdo. According 1944 Japanese scholar academic source, In Korean dialect, ‘Seok’ is another name of ‘Dok’.”
You had better recognize the weakness in your argument. You have to prove that Seokdo is Dokdo. Mere similarity in pronunciation is not enough. You have to find what the Korean Emperor meant by “Seokdo” and show it is nothing but Dokdo. Otherwise Seokdo is not Dokdo. That means Dokdo did not belong to Korea in 1900, just as well it does not today.
I am getting tired about these discussions about old maps. I believe there are other blogs who are dedicated for those discussion.
I there realy any need to continue this on this blog?
The bottom line is, both Japan and Korea claim Takeshima/Dokdo.
Korea is actually governing it for 50years.
For some illegaly and for others legaly.
Period.
Seokdo is not Dokdo? well, any evidence?
that is the only japanese claim.
and i already said, not only imperial ordinance but also 1905 Ullengdo Governor official document said, “Dokdo is Territory of Korea.
if “taekshima is really nature territory of Japan. Why Japan “illegal” incorporate this island in 1905? According to Japanese logic, Japanese incorporate their nature territory ‘Tokyo’ in 1905. do you believe japanese claim? it is good evidence that DOKDO IS NOT a nature territory of Japan.
All moot points. Last time I checked there were quite a few armed Koreans on the islet.
#61 Nakagawa
What is important is not whether Koreans knew Dokdo or not, but whether Korean Government had the intention to make Dokdo its territory and actually put Dokdo under its control before 1905.
Korean Imperial Edict 41 of 1900 clearly shows Korean Government did not have such intention unless such absurd argument that “Seokdo is Dokdo” is sustained.
All the “evidence” you raised is just circumstantial and has little value.
J
blah blah.. you just sing a troll without evidence.
well, i’m really tired your comments.
I ALREADY SAID, many of japanese source (before 1905), 韓海通漁指針, 最新韓國實業指針, 韓國新地理… said “liancourt Rocks are Part of Ullengdo province”
Korean Imperial Edict 41 of 1900 clearly shows Korean Government Contorlled Dokdo.
1905 Ullengdo Governor official document show that Korea Controlled Dokdo.
Even 1951 Map (drawed by Japanese goverment 衆議院)
http://www.historyfoundation.o.....0515_7.jpg
Dokdo was Officialy exclude in Territory of Japan.
Not only ancient times record but also after 1945 record, Japan was not include Dokdo as their territory.
“Why Japan “illegal” incorporate this island in 1905?”
Because it was potentially a disputed territory.
“According to Japanese logic, Japanese incorporate their nature territory ‘Tokyo’ in 1905. do you believe japanese claim? ”
Was “nature territory”Tokyo ever under territorial dispute?
(Actually some part was,the Bonin Islands.Internationally recognized in 1876.)
#68
I’m just copy and pasting.
The map was made by the house of representative at diet,which was operating under control of GHQ until April 28th of 1952.
The line being drawn in so called “MacArthur line” that restricts Japanese fishing vessel activities,not borderline of Korean waters.Thus your argument doesn’t stand.Nakagawa.
#64 “Seokdo is not Dokdo? well, any evidence?”
How poor. I will make it easier for you.
SEOKDO is not DOKDO. Can you see the difference?
S-E-O-K-D-O is not D-O-K-D-O. How is that?
Can you see SE is different from D?
“1905 Ullengdo Governor official document said, “Dokdo is Territory of Korea.”"
He said so only after Japan declared possession of Dokdo and put the islands under its control. He should have put the islands under his control before Japan did so.
to Aceface :
Yes! It is a one of the good evidence that Dokdo was not a “terra nullius”.
It is good evidence that Japan goverment recognized that it was NOT a “terra nullius” in 1905.
many of japanese source (before 1905), 韓海通漁指針, 最新韓國實業指針, 韓國新地理… said “liancourt Rocks are Part of Ullengdo province”
1. Before 1905 Japanese records, “Dokdo(Liancourt Rocks) belong to Korea!”
2. In 1905, Dokdo incorporated in japan as a “terra nullius”!
“terra nullius?”
even japanese recognized that it was not a “terra nullius”.
Wow..it’s really shocking and scary claim. LOL
Nakagawa, I just checked 韓海通漁指針 to be sure, and it does not say “liancourt Rocks are Part of Ullengdo province”. Also, please include links to the various false claims you are making.
Just what my sanity needs…more mindless Dokdo bullshit.
Or maybe I can learn from the Koreans and start a movement for Hans Island! Mobilize the forces! Find, or if I can’t find, create old maps and creatively interpret them as being legitimate legal documents! Inquire as how to become a resident of the island! I have found my calling….
to J :
According to Your Logic,
Takeshima is NOT Dokdo(liancourt Rocks).
Because, Dokdo do not have Bamboo!!!
hahahah.
“Yes! It is a one of the good evidence that Dokdo was not a “terra nullius”.
It is good evidence that Japan goverment recognized that it was NOT a “terra nullius” in 1905.”
I don’t understand the logic of your second statement,but that 1951 map is showing “MacArthur line” and not much else.Can’t tell anything from the map about how J-Government recognized the status of Takeshima,either that is “terra nullius” or not.
Could this topic get any more boring or less relevant? ZZZZzzzzzzzzzz……
to shakuhachi :
韓海通漁指針(1903, author is a Japanese) p.123
ヤンコ島 鬱陵島より東南の方約三十里、我が隱岐國を西北に距ること殆んど同里數の海中に於て、無人の一島あり、晴天の際鬱陵島山峯の高所より之れを望すを得べし、韓人及び本邦漁人は之れをヤンコも呼び、
(translate)
Liancourt Rocks (Part of Kangwondo, Korea).
It is distance 30 ri from Ulleungdo. This island is and uninhabited island(no people living in it).
to Aceface
http://www.historyfoundation.o.....0515_7.jpg
hahaha. This map drawed by Japanese goverment 衆議院.
do you think this map relation with USA?
according to your logic,
USA and Japan, both goverment agree that Dokdo is exclude from territory of Japan.
Again, “Takeshima belong to Japan!”
This totally “new theory” maded since 1953.
#77
Word from the wise.I’m out!
To Nakagawa
Read #65 and #77.
#78
The Japanese text you pasted does not say “Liancourt Rocks (Part of Kangwondo, Korea)”.
to J:
“ヤンコ島 鬱陵島より東南の方約三十里”
韓海通漁指針
do you think 韓海 is a Japanese sea?
LOL.
here is the another evidence.
In 1896, Japanese official diplomatic document 朝鮮國交始末內深書, writed about dokdo, dokdo belong to korea.
Well, anyway, anyhow, Japan can’t escape from Dokdo was not a “terra nullius”.
#83, #78
ヤンコ島 鬱陵島より東南の方約三十里、我が隱岐國を西北に距ること殆んど同里數の海中に於て、無人の一島あり、晴天の際鬱陵島山峯の高所より之れを望すを得べし、韓人及び本邦漁人は之れをヤンコも呼び
translation
“Yankotou: From Ulleungdo to the southeast about 30 ri, or from our Oki Province to the northwest about the same distance, there is an uninhibited island in the middle of the sea. On sunny day, it is visible from high places on the mountain of Ulleungdo. Korean and Japanese fishermen also call it Yanko.”
It does not say the island belongs to Korea.
Where can you find 韓海 in the text?
“terra nullius”
1. “land belonging to no one”
2. “nobody’s land”
However, (before 1905) japanese govemrnet recognized that Dokdo belong to Korea.
Korea goverment controlled Dokdo.
Japan’s 1905 claim “Dokdo was a terra nullius” was “NULL AND VOID”.
Well, anyway, anyhow, Japan can’t escape from Dokdo was not a “terra nullius”.
to J:
this is LAST answer to you.
hint : “what is the book name?”
#84 ”In 1896, Japanese official diplomatic document 朝鮮國交始末內探書, writed about dokdo, dokdo belong to korea.”
I know that paper. It says that there is no evinence that Dokdo belongs to Korea.
#86 “hint : what is the book name?”
So, you admit that the book does not say Dokdo belongs to Korea, but merely that the title has the word “Korea Sea”.
I wonder why you keep telling untruth.
Can you even read Japanese? What you posted doesn’t say “Liancourt Rocks (Part of Kangwondo, Korea)”. This is the problem with you people, you just put in stuff that isn’t there. What you posted is a fishery guide for the waters around Korea, so it includes Ulleungdo in it, and for frame of reference it also gives the location of the Liancourt Rocks in terms of its distance from Ulleungdo, along with both Ulleungdo’s and the Liancourt Rocks coordinates. By the way the document also talks about persuing business opportunities in the Liancourt Rocks, and doesn’t mention it being Korean territory at all.
Admit it you have nothing. Nothing.
to J:
『朝鮮国交際始末内探書』は明治政府の国家最高機関である太政官指令にたいする外務省の報告書である。
太政官は外務省に14項目の指示を下しているが、そのなかの一つが、‘鬱陵島と独島が朝鮮付属となっている始末’を調査したものだ。
1869年(明治2)外務省は佐田白茅、森山茂、齋藤栄を調査官として朝鮮に派遣したが、『朝鮮国交際始末内探書』はその報告書である。
独島は「一. 竹島松島朝鮮付属ニ相成候始末」という題目に入っており、題目にすでに ‘朝鮮の付属’であるとしており、本文にも “松島ハ竹島ノ隣島”と、朝鮮領であることを明確にしている。
もし、独島が日本の固有領土であるならば、 ‘朝鮮の付属’とはせず、 ‘隠岐の付属’だとするのが妥当である。
‘鬱陵島と独島が朝鮮付属となっている始末を調査せよ’は太政官の指令と ‘鬱陵島と独島が朝鮮付属となっている始末’という報告書は独島が朝鮮領土であったことを認知していたという明白な証拠である。
従って、これ以上、独島の領有權に対する論争は無意味であるとしたい。
to J:
Huuu… I’m really tired trolling.
Book is described “Sea of Korea, and Their islands”
Well, Liancourt Rocks descibed as “part of kangwondo, Korea”.
See “the contents of a book”.
It part of kangwondo contents.
There is no described that Liancourt Rocks is not belong to korea.
to shakuhachi :
I don’t know you are japanese or not.
You seems like a Proxy using Japanese user.
all of your claims are shouting like this.
“Hi, I am a Japanese Jap, and I find the whole western concept of having to provide “evidence” or “facts” to back up outrageous claims to be so stupid and meaningless. Why is it necessary to have to go through the trouble of having to find evidence of facts to back up our claims when we Japaneses are always right? We don’t need to mess with this stupid thing called “evidence.” Everything that comes from Japanese sources is absolute truth and everything that is from foreign sources is 100% lies.”
“That’s the way we Japaneses learn in our schools. Also, we don’t understand the concept of “debate” or fair trial. In Japan, whoever screams the loudest or posts the most number of spamming comments on the internet is always the person who is telling the truth. That’s how our culture teaches us to debate. I think this whole concept of having to provide “evidence” is so stupid and time wasting. No wonder only foreigners like white people, Korean, and Chinese actually believe this.”
“We Japaneses are above having to provide evidence. Thus, as long as we scream loud enough and post everywhere on the internet that Japan is a peaceful nation which was suddenly attacked by US, then that’s all we need to do. No need to have to go through the trouble of having to provide this stupid thing called “evidence”! Whatever we Japaneses say is automatically true!”
This is reality.
if you are not japanese, Sorry if it offends you.
Oh, This article linked to Anti-Korean website. occidentalism?
LOL.
Does anyone think that the resurfacing of l’affaire de Dokdo and the shooting of a tourist is a tad convenient for LMB et al, as it cloaks the anti-US beef import zealots? Could it be way cool back-door diplomacy designed to pan the Norkers? Not that I’m a conspiracy theorist. No! Honestly…….
Nakagawa @ 91, that is prejudiced man. I am offended as a human being. Furthermore, I find your psychological projection quite remarkable.
Instead of admitting you were wrong about several things (see comment #58, #73, #89), you instead engaged in a racist rant against Japanese people.
#90
The original text of the document in 1870 is as follows.
竹島 松島 朝鮮附属ニ相成候始末
此儀ハ 松島ハ竹島ノ隣島ニシテ松島ノ儀ニ付、是迄掲載セシ書留モ無之、
Translation
“Question: When and how did Takeshima and Matsushima belong to Korea, (if at all)?
Answer: Matsushima (today’s Dokdo) is a neighboring island of Takeshima (today’s Ulleungdo). As to Matsushima’s said claim, there is no written evidence about it so far.”
The reporter of Japanese government dispatched to Korea said in the report that there was no evidence that Dokdo belonged to Korea.
The question part does not imply Government of Japan recognized Dokdo Korean territory.
Well,
even 下條正男(Shimojo masao, Researcher of Takeshima, He is a japanese side claimer) says, “It is hard to believe that takeshima was a Native territory of Japan”.
Nakagawa, your translations are not reliable. They have words and statements in them that are not in the original text. So shameless!
to J:
your answer is simple,
“no evidence”
“no evidence”
“no evidence”
“no evidence”
“no evidence”
this document described as island belong to korea. Not japan.
then, any evidence that dokdo is not Korea’s territory in this document?
LOL
Read carefully, That document title.
you seems like a whatever i says,
“Whatever we Japaneses say is automatically true!”
“Japanese sources is absolute truth and everything that is from foreign sources is 100% lies.””
HAHAHAHAHA! fucking hilarious.
#91, “Huuu… I’m really tired trolling.”
I bet you are. Check your grammar.
well, i quit.
bye
The reason why Korea/China/Japan r trying to get their hands on those shitty piece of tiny rocks is every simple: the area around the rocks is supposed to be full of natural resources like oil/gas blabla.
All 3 countries want to have a big chunk of it.
Just like the US, they all need a nice sounding reason to justify their greed.
US came up with ‘we bring u human rights & democracy’ (funny those claims r only limited to resource rich nations).
Japan with ‘we r a peaseful nation just trying to defend our land’.
Korea with ‘historically its our land anyway’.
China with ‘historically its our land anyway + we r a big pissed off nation so dont dear to touch it, Japan’.
Admitted, the US advertise its greed better than the rest.
Y’all need to get a life.
Robert doesn’t like contributing bloggers deleting comments. He prefers to reserve that right for himself. However, there is no policy about closing threads to comments although it’s only been done a few times, I think. I’m going to close this thread because it’s degenerated into bickering that is irrelevant to the actual topic of the post, which is NOT about historical claims to Dokdo; rather, the post is about Korean reactions to Japanese claims.
The Peking Duck usually closes threads after 100 comments. I think that is a good rule of thumb because when the number of comments reaches that mark, it is likely that many are off-topic and contain personal bickering.
Maybe someday Wordpress will make available a feature that creates separate threads for responses to comments, keeping back and forth volleying off the main thread.
Thread closed for now.
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