Comments on: A Steak a Day Keeps the Good Cholesterol Away… http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/07/10/a-steak-a-day-keeps-the-good-cholesterol-away/ Korea... in Blog Format Wed, 3 Dec 2008 01:55:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: WangKon936 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/07/10/a-steak-a-day-keeps-the-good-cholesterol-away/#comment-170546 WangKon936 Tue, 15 Jul 2008 05:30:35 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=6921#comment-170546 Been kind of thinking about how to answer your questions, Mizar. I just want to make sure I correctly understand what you are saying. However, although I understand and have hear the analogy of the scorpion and the turtle, I don’t know how it applies to Korea. We have a disagreement with what the “nature” of Korean’s history as it relates to how it can give us guidance as to what their future behavior is. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you appear to see the natural progression of Korean history as being one of making mistakes that end-up becoming the root of their own downfall. I would disagree with you on this harsh assessment, but agree with you on the more moderate analysis that Koreans do tend to shoot themselves in the foot a lot. The history of Korea has, at least to me, been one of making very critical decisions in light of very difficult regional and geopolitical environment. Of course, nothing new here. However, I’d take a more balanced view and say that it’s full of both successes and failures, but it isn’t a failure overall. At its worse, Korea’s divisiveness, regionalism and stupidity have created some enormous problems such as the Manchu invasions, which came about because a certain faction of the government wanted a pro-Ming standing and they deposed the wise Korean king who advocated a neutral standing so as to not provoke the Manchus. Another would be the divisiveness of the East and Western factions ensuring that Korea would be ill prepared for Hideyoshi’s invasions (although it can be argued that maybe no amount of preparedness could get Chosun era Korea ready for 150,000 samurai’s pronouncing around the peninsula). Korea’s greatest failure (and more recent one) would be it’s annexation to Japan at the turn of the 20th century. Clearly divisiveness played a huge role here. The strong Queen Min, the idiot King Gojong and the ghost of the Taewanggwon haunting the halls of Gyeongbokgung palace, which he rebuilt at the expense almost bankrupting the nation while Japanese began their march to modernization. However, what about Korea’s successes? Let’s not forget those when evaluating Korean history. It must be remembered that for most of Korea’s history, the dominate and most advanced civilization in East Asia was China and they were the most successful state not under direct administrative control of the Chinese that best emulated its culture. Too many people tend to think that this emulation of China contributed to it’s lack of development in the late 19th century, however, let’s not forget that striving to attain Chinese modes of civilization was a goal sought by many nations in pre-modern Asia (hence why China was able to attract so many tributaries) and very few were successful in attaining it. As far as philosophy is concerned, Korea did make meaningful contributions to the corpus of neo-confucian literature. So Korea, in its history, has had it’s ups and downs. They shoot themselves in the foot, but Korean history is not one of chronic failure. Thus I don’t see how your analogy of the scorpion and the turtle applies. Regarding today’s Korean society and their idiocracies getting in the way and doing some serious damage. It is true that today’s generation of young Koreans have a dangerous fondness towards North Korea and China and an equally dangerous dislike of the U.S. and Japan. I know the recent beef protests (as well as the great anti-U.S. protests of 2003) probably reinforce this. Korea’s younger generation is, in my opinion, quite immature and so unexposed to the outside world. However, this is what I think about Koreans. I think that Koreans hem and haw a lot. They complain a lot. They make a big ruckus. However, at the end of the day, they do give thought to things and will ultimately make the right decision at the end of the day. I mean, let’s hope they do. They are a democracy after all. Theoretically, a democracy will eventually make the right decision, right? My gut tells me that these Koreans will make a lot of mistakes before they get the wisdom to make the right decision. They will sometimes make spectacular failures (the cloning scandal being one of them). They will take five steps forward only to take four steps backwards. I hope and believe that at the end of the day, they will eventually get it right more often than not. Been kind of thinking about how to answer your questions, Mizar. I just want to make sure I correctly understand what you are saying. However, although I understand and have hear the analogy of the scorpion and the turtle, I don’t know how it applies to Korea. We have a disagreement with what the “nature” of Korean’s history as it relates to how it can give us guidance as to what their future behavior is. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you appear to see the natural progression of Korean history as being one of making mistakes that end-up becoming the root of their own downfall. I would disagree with you on this harsh assessment, but agree with you on the more moderate analysis that Koreans do tend to shoot themselves in the foot a lot.
The history of Korea has, at least to me, been one of making very critical decisions in light of very difficult regional and geopolitical environment. Of course, nothing new here. However, I’d take a more balanced view and say that it’s full of both successes and failures, but it isn’t a failure overall.
At its worse, Korea’s divisiveness, regionalism and stupidity have created some enormous problems such as the Manchu invasions, which came about because a certain faction of the government wanted a pro-Ming standing and they deposed the wise Korean king who advocated a neutral standing so as to not provoke the Manchus. Another would be the divisiveness of the East and Western factions ensuring that Korea would be ill prepared for Hideyoshi’s invasions (although it can be argued that maybe no amount of preparedness could get Chosun era Korea ready for 150,000 samurai’s pronouncing around the peninsula). Korea’s greatest failure (and more recent one) would be it’s annexation to Japan at the turn of the 20th century. Clearly divisiveness played a huge role here. The strong Queen Min, the idiot King Gojong and the ghost of the Taewanggwon haunting the halls of Gyeongbokgung palace, which he rebuilt at the expense almost bankrupting the nation while Japanese began their march to modernization.
However, what about Korea’s successes? Let’s not forget those when evaluating Korean history. It must be remembered that for most of Korea’s history, the dominate and most advanced civilization in East Asia was China and they were the most successful state not under direct administrative control of the Chinese that best emulated its culture. Too many people tend to think that this emulation of China contributed to it’s lack of development in the late 19th century, however, let’s not forget that striving to attain Chinese modes of civilization was a goal sought by many nations in pre-modern Asia (hence why China was able to attract so many tributaries) and very few were successful in attaining it. As far as philosophy is concerned, Korea did make meaningful contributions to the corpus of neo-confucian literature.
So Korea, in its history, has had it’s ups and downs. They shoot themselves in the foot, but Korean history is not one of chronic failure. Thus I don’t see how your analogy of the scorpion and the turtle applies.
Regarding today’s Korean society and their idiocracies getting in the way and doing some serious damage. It is true that today’s generation of young Koreans have a dangerous fondness towards North Korea and China and an equally dangerous dislike of the U.S. and Japan. I know the recent beef protests (as well as the great anti-U.S. protests of 2003) probably reinforce this. Korea’s younger generation is, in my opinion, quite immature and so unexposed to the outside world. However, this is what I think about Koreans. I think that Koreans hem and haw a lot. They complain a lot. They make a big ruckus. However, at the end of the day, they do give thought to things and will ultimately make the right decision at the end of the day. I mean, let’s hope they do. They are a democracy after all. Theoretically, a democracy will eventually make the right decision, right? My gut tells me that these Koreans will make a lot of mistakes before they get the wisdom to make the right decision. They will sometimes make spectacular failures (the cloning scandal being one of them). They will take five steps forward only to take four steps backwards. I hope and believe that at the end of the day, they will eventually get it right more often than not.

]]> By: mizar5 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/07/10/a-steak-a-day-keeps-the-good-cholesterol-away/#comment-170400 mizar5 Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:05:22 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=6921#comment-170400 WangKon936: "...Korean society is a bit warped. However, I think what we are seeing is still a rough draft of what may ultimately mature in another 15 to 20 years. The results today are imperfect and rough hewed, but who are we… who is anyone for that matter, to place such harsh value judgements on something another people have worked so hard to build?" WangKon, I'm wondering if you still feel as optimistic about the nation's future given the continuing onslaught of anachronistic irrationality? I make no bones about the fact that I am extremely pessimistic about Korea's future as a nation, given the pre-scientific, xenophobic, race-based, communist, amoral mindset that prevails and the resulting social, political and economic disarray. I see an exponential downward spiral. In the US, it may indeed take a shock like the current economic, political and energy crisis to shake people up but, historically, the US has invariably prevailed over such crises and come out stronger. In Korea's case, what we see is a nation being whittled away by self-absorbtion through infighting and willful ignorance of global trends. I have already given up holding out any hope for progress in Korea for reasons illustrated by the fable of the turtle helping the scorpion to cross the river: “Would you help me cross the river?” The scorpion asks the turtle. “Hop on!” Says the turtle generously, “but you have to promise not to sting me?” “I promise.” The scorpion declares. He then jumps on. The turtle swims across the river. Just as they get to the other bank the scorpion stings the turtle. “Why did you do that?” Asks the turtle painfully right before he takes his last breath and sinks under the water. “It is just in my nature to it.” The scorpion answers. The moral - expressed in mixed metaphor - is that a scorpion cannot change its stripes. The history of Korea is that of a scorpion stinging a turtle. WangKon936: “…Korean society is a bit warped. However, I think what we are seeing is still a rough draft of what may ultimately mature in another 15 to 20 years. The results today are imperfect and rough hewed, but who are we… who is anyone for that matter, to place such harsh value judgements on something another people have worked so hard to build?”

WangKon, I’m wondering if you still feel as optimistic about the nation’s future given the continuing onslaught of anachronistic irrationality? I make no bones about the fact that I am extremely pessimistic about Korea’s future as a nation, given the pre-scientific, xenophobic, race-based, communist, amoral mindset that prevails and the resulting social, political and economic disarray. I see an exponential downward spiral. In the US, it may indeed take a shock like the current economic, political and energy crisis to shake people up but, historically, the US has invariably prevailed over such crises and come out stronger. In Korea’s case, what we see is a nation being whittled away by self-absorbtion through infighting and willful ignorance of global trends.

I have already given up holding out any hope for progress in Korea for reasons illustrated by the fable of the turtle helping the scorpion to cross the river:

“Would you help me cross the river?” The scorpion asks the turtle.
“Hop on!” Says the turtle generously, “but you have to promise not to sting me?”
“I promise.” The scorpion declares.
He then jumps on. The turtle swims across the river. Just as they get to the other bank the scorpion stings the turtle.
“Why did you do that?” Asks the turtle painfully right before he takes his last breath and sinks under the water.
“It is just in my nature to it.” The scorpion answers.

The moral - expressed in mixed metaphor - is that a scorpion cannot change its stripes. The history of Korea is that of a scorpion stinging a turtle.

]]> By: Korean families in crisis « Korea Dispatch http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/07/10/a-steak-a-day-keeps-the-good-cholesterol-away/#comment-170030 Korean families in crisis « Korea Dispatch Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:17:11 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=6921#comment-170030 [...] don’t know the causes for what’s going on here, though as an armchair historian I look to Korea’s recent [...] [...] don’t know the causes for what’s going on here, though as an armchair historian I look to Korea’s recent [...]

]]> By: Iceberg http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/07/10/a-steak-a-day-keeps-the-good-cholesterol-away/#comment-170027 Iceberg Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:03:09 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=6921#comment-170027 <i>Instead of “some nationalistic jap man”,how about founder of POSCO and ex-Prime Minister of ROK,Park Tae-Joon telling you how it was...</i> Somebody done been schooled, eh P? When was the last time you visited your homeland? Instead of “some nationalistic jap man”,how about founder of POSCO and ex-Prime Minister of ROK,Park Tae-Joon telling you how it was…

Somebody done been schooled, eh P?

When was the last time you visited your homeland?

]]> By: Aceface http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/07/10/a-steak-a-day-keeps-the-good-cholesterol-away/#comment-170024 Aceface Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:41:40 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=6921#comment-170024 "foreign aid = loans? " Yes.Some loans can be considered as foreign aid,since the interest rate is way lower than the commercial financial institutions. "you’re dismissed. and who the hell gonna find some nationalistic jap man who tells us his people created posco as a credible source? " Too bad my father died of cancer two years ago,for he was working for Nippon Steel for about 40 years. Instead of "some nationalistic jap man",how about founder of POSCO and ex-Prime Minister of ROK,Park Tae-Joon telling you how it was. http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2887893 "korea is responsible for it’s success not you. ok? " I know "I"didn't do anything.But some of "my"country men "helped" Korea and it's success.That's a fact. And I'm not "demanding" any Thank-you-s form any Koreans. To be honest, I just use stuff like that because it drives dude like Pawikirogi absolutely nuts. it’s fun. “foreign aid = loans? ”

Yes.Some loans can be considered as foreign aid,since the interest rate is way lower than the commercial financial institutions.

“you’re dismissed. and who the hell gonna find some nationalistic jap man who tells us his people created posco as a credible source? ”

Too bad my father died of cancer two years ago,for he was working for Nippon Steel for about 40 years.

Instead of “some nationalistic jap man”,how about founder of POSCO and ex-Prime Minister of ROK,Park Tae-Joon telling you how it was.

http://joongangdaily.joins.com.....id=2887893

“korea is responsible for it’s success not you. ok? ”

I know “I”didn’t do anything.But some of “my”country men “helped” Korea and it’s success.That’s a fact.

And I’m not “demanding” any Thank-you-s form any Koreans.
To be honest, I just use stuff like that because it drives dude like Pawikirogi absolutely nuts. it’s fun.

]]> By: dogbert http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/07/10/a-steak-a-day-keeps-the-good-cholesterol-away/#comment-169999 dogbert Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:17:08 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=6921#comment-169999 If you want to credit Koreans with the success of South Korea, you need to also blame Koreans for the failure of the North. If you want to credit Koreans with the success of South Korea, you need to also blame Koreans for the failure of the North.

]]> By: Sperwer http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/07/10/a-steak-a-day-keeps-the-good-cholesterol-away/#comment-169992 Sperwer Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:05:20 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=6921#comment-169992 <blockquote>documentation? find it yourself. i’ve decided not to argue with you </blockquote> There isn't any - as you no doubt know, because with some relatively inconsequential amounts, Korean has not repaid the US. So you don't argue, because your claims have no factual basis. And the facts are profoundly embarrassing to your sort of Korean chauvinist, the energy of whose hatred is generated by the immense gulf between your fantasies and the realities of Korean history and the consequent cognitive dissonance it induces. Better start taking your meds.

documentation? find it yourself. i’ve decided not to argue with you

There isn’t any - as you no doubt know, because with some relatively inconsequential amounts, Korean has not repaid the US.

So you don’t argue, because your claims have no factual basis.

And the facts are profoundly embarrassing to your sort of Korean chauvinist, the energy of whose hatred is generated by the immense gulf between your fantasies and the realities of Korean history and the consequent cognitive dissonance it induces.

Better start taking your meds.

]]> By: pawikirogi http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/07/10/a-steak-a-day-keeps-the-good-cholesterol-away/#comment-169990 pawikirogi Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:00:36 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=6921#comment-169990 dear expat: your attempts to inform the korean people that their succress isn't their success is the primary reason you don't receive any acknowledgement of your assistance with the tranformation of korea from people like me. loans, foreign aid, and expertise are certainly facotrs in sk's rise but aren't the primary reasons. many countries around the world recieved aid, loans, and expertise and yet almost all of them are still running in place. the fact of the matter is, the people who receive is much more important than what is given. your refusal to acknowledge korea's miraculous rise is the very reason you'll receive no thanks from this korean and many others. and just imagine, some japanese guy demanding we thank him. i don't think so. dear expat:

your attempts to inform the korean people that their succress isn’t their success is the primary reason you don’t receive any acknowledgement of your assistance with the tranformation of korea from people like me.

loans, foreign aid, and expertise are certainly facotrs in sk’s rise but aren’t the primary reasons. many countries around the world recieved aid, loans, and expertise and yet almost all of them are still running in place. the fact of the matter is, the people who receive is much more important than what is given.

your refusal to acknowledge korea’s miraculous rise is the very reason you’ll receive no thanks from this korean and many others.

and just imagine, some japanese guy demanding we thank him.

i don’t think so.

]]> By: pawikirogi http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/07/10/a-steak-a-day-keeps-the-good-cholesterol-away/#comment-169983 pawikirogi Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:44:18 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=6921#comment-169983 because you are without grace. that's why. documentation? find it yourself. i've decided not to argue with you, spewy, quite a long time ago. good day. because you are without grace. that’s why.

documentation? find it yourself. i’ve decided not to argue with you, spewy, quite a long time ago.

good day.

]]> By: Sperwer http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/07/10/a-steak-a-day-keeps-the-good-cholesterol-away/#comment-169980 Sperwer Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:21:43 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=6921#comment-169980 <blockquote>south korea is also the only country that actually paid back any money that was lent to it</blockquote> Please document Korea's repayment of the (in current dollars) tens of billions that the US provided between 1945 and 1970, when during the early years US remittances made up >90% of ROKGOV budget) or, God help us, the equally large investments in infrastructure made by the Japanese colonialists. The development of Korea was not an either/or proposition. Uncle Kim and Aunt Min provided the sweat equity, but foreigners provided nearly all the capital and (especially early on) the expertise (which they passed on to Koreans). Why is it so hard for so many Koreans to acknowledge as much with some grace, if not sincere gratitude (the latter not being expected in the case of the Japanese), and without embarrassment?

south korea is also the only country that actually paid back any money that was lent to it

Please document Korea’s repayment of the (in current dollars) tens of billions that the US provided between 1945 and 1970, when during the early years US remittances made up >90% of ROKGOV budget) or, God help us, the equally large investments in infrastructure made by the Japanese colonialists.

The development of Korea was not an either/or proposition. Uncle Kim and Aunt Min provided the sweat equity, but foreigners provided nearly all the capital and (especially early on) the expertise (which they passed on to Koreans).

Why is it so hard for so many Koreans to acknowledge as much with some grace, if not sincere gratitude (the latter not being expected in the case of the Japanese), and without embarrassment?

]]>