Tom Plate over at UCLA’s Asia Institute manages to talk about Koreans without ever once mentioning U.S. Beef! An impressive accomplishment considering what’s transpired over the last couple of months. Tom is either a very good Asia analyst and playing the diplomacy card or a very bad one and unwittingly playing the ignorance card.
Check it out and decide for yourself.
20 Comments
Interesting. I agree, Mr. Ban is doing the Korean nation proud. I am also very surprised that there was no mention of killer meat whatsoever. He is probably one of the smart analysts that just avoided that ugly situation all together. Better off, too.
” a very bad one and unwittingly playing the ignorance card.” <—— spot on!
Mr. Plate has a record of ignorance that is amazing. Didn’t they stop carrying his crap in the Chosun-Ilbo a few years back?
I don’t think any academia wants to touch the Beef issue as it is going through another phase..It is simply too early for them to make any conclusion. Then again, UCLA is pretty liberal so I would not surprise those professors have sympathy toward the candle light crowd…
David,
You are a real live koreaphile!!!
Rarer than dinosaurs and tooth fairies here at the ‘hole. Welcome! Here’s hoping you stick around…
‘Like a lawyer who rarely ever shouts but has done enough homework to know his case like a fitting glove, the U.N. Secretary General impresses peers and foreign leaders alike.’
we can only dream that real lawyers could be as gracious.
‘i am sooooooooooo pretty!’ you-know
“Korean-American Anthony Kim grabbed the AT&T National, finishing with a 5-under 65 — his second PGA-level title in one year.”
An American won the title; what does this have to do with Korea?
I’m British-Australian. I doubt whether anyone in London would give a toss if I won a golf title.
Koreans identify one of their own through ethnicity, not nationality. While generally used only when it’s something GOOD for the Korean identity, Koreans are considered Korean as long as their blood is Korean.
Of course, there are serious cultural issues with how to feel about halfs, nationals who visit Korea, and what to do when Koreans do something that negatively portrays Koreans.
Western nationals often feel greater affiliation with nationality, not ethnicity, due to the higher levels of heterogeneity in the population.
But what do I know, I ain’t a damn sociologist.
So what would the reaction of the rest of the world be if the US, Australia or the UK, for example, were to base their identities on white, European civilization?
That would be called racist. I say that because we (most of western civ) have moved beyond ethnic nationalism and into civic nationalism. Most of Asia is still in the ethnic nationalism stage, as you well can see. The homogeneous societies (such as Japan and Korea) have yet to change and start adapting and allowing foreigners into “the club” so to speak. I mean, I would love the day when a person can identify as being Korean or Japanese without actually being of that lineage. Like America and Britain. Korea just has to move on past ethnicity and get into the civic realm of belonging.
Thanks for answering my rhetorical question.
No problem! ~^^
#8,9: The thing is though, that Koreans don’t base their identities on other Asian civilizations (not directly at least), or even celebrate when say a Chinese guy gets gold in Olympic hurdles. Let’s be fair, there are also a good number of Europeans, for example Italians, born in America that base their identity on their Italian heritage and achievements. If you ask such a person if they take pride in say, Greek achievements, the person might just get offended. What’s interesting though, is how they refer to other bread-and-butter Americans as ‘whites’…ie. “Can’t believe the stuff white people eat, it’s disgusting”.
Also, let’s be honest. If a German guy immigrated to America at age 10, and spoke with a perfect accent by his 20’s, he could fit in as being ‘American’ with the best of them. Now let’s take a good friend of mine, a 4th generation Japanese American who’s a manager of a textile company in Minnesota.
He speaks no Japanese whatsoever, only English, and is more ‘American’ than most; history, music, dance, etc. If people comment on his English and ask his nationality and answers American, the pereon will get snarky. They’ll ask where his parents are from (America), and where his grandparents are from (America), and at this point, many either get angry and think he’s a liar or understand he’s more American than they are and get embarrassed and apologize.
This kind of thing would never happen to the German dude, and despite what you may say, with the general populace, there will always be some slight… distrust (perhaps too strong of a word, can’t think of a better one though) of the idea of an Asian face being truly American. It’s the same for many other people, and also true for white guy doing the same in Korea.
Thus the reverse is the same. That Japanese friend was the one who I visited with to Korea for the first time way back, as part of our Asian travels. Most people took him to be Korean and would speak to him in it; had he been able to, no one would doubt him if, say, he said he was from Pusan.
It’s a complicated issue, and something I sympathize for (at least when it comes to those who are actually loyal to the west).
I bet the Japanese-American’s bank has no problem with giving him an international ATM card though…
12:
Wow, interesting story. Could it possibly be though that the people who ask your friend about his nationality are just making polite conversation - sometimes, not all the time?
Often (being in and around military bases) I am asked the same question by perfect strangers - “Where are you from?” I personnally see it as an ice-breaker question really. The stranger trying to pry me for information- some common ground we can identify with and build a friendship on (or whatever).
Keep in mind, I am white. Yet I am getting the same question as your friend. I only ask that maybe people ask where he is from because they wish to get to know the person, not to segragate the person.
#14: I’d like to mention that while I am critical about the outdated ideal of what an ‘American’ is, that doesn’t mean it’s changed my opinion that America is one of the finest places for people of varying race. At no point would have I felt that those questions were meant to segregate him or anyone else. It’s just simply that the view of an Asian face with ‘American’ roots is a difficult concept to get across, and I don’t blame them if you look at the statistics and their general experience with said cultural group.
I can’t deny that the question being asked is used as an ice-breaker so to say, it’s to the extent that it’s pushed that gets irritating I guess. For example, say the response to, “Where are you from?”, was answered with “Montana”.
This can have different implications, while for you I would say it’s more of a straight forward question, for my friend, it’s more of a probe; a pc method of finding out his ‘classification’. This continues for some time even when it’s been stated his direct family was born in America, for the ‘American’ view does not register with his face.
Had the same response been given by you, the conversation would simply have gone along with something like, “Oh that’s cool, I got a cousin who lives down south there, nice place”.
Again, there is no malice or segregation attempts in this, it’s quite harmless. It’s just that it can be frustrating believing (not a fact, though) that the general idea of ‘American’ is not so much as cultural but race based, which is exactly what some people have just criticized East Asians for, and which I take to heart as I’d say I’m more American than anything else but the sentiment was not really felt back in the past. Is this always the case in the USA? Hell no, and the % depends where you go. I guess it’s just something that you feel as a colored minority (exceptions with Blacks and Latinos possibly, though they have their own unique issues too), and probably why when it comes to talks about stereotypes and racism in East Asia, we don’t really see it as that much worse. As with everything, YMMV.
“Also, let’s be honest. If a German guy immigrated to America at age 10, and spoke with a perfect accent by his 20’s, he could fit in as being ‘American’ with the best of them. Now let’s take a good friend of mine, a 4th generation Japanese American who’s a manager of a textile company in Minnesota.”
Yes, let’s be honest. If he spoke with an accent he probably would be asked where he’s from. It differentiates him, just as an Asian face does. Americans are just curious about “nationality” in general. People are asked this question all the time, Caucasians alike. It’s just that people with Asian backgrounds are more sensitive about it. Interestingly, African Americans are NEVER asked this question - unless they happen to have an accent.
“…This kind of thing would never happen to the German dude, and despite what you may say, with the general populace, there will always be some slight… distrust (perhaps too strong of a word, can’t think of a better one though) of the idea of an Asian face being truly American. It’s the same for many other people, and also true for white guy doing the same in Korea.”
I am aware of no such “distrust…of the idea of an Asian face being truly American.” To the contrary, if there is any nationalist sentiment behind the question, it is likely pride in the diversity and inclusiveness of the American nation. This is, after all, the American ideal.
And let’s face it. EVERYONE is sensitive about being treated differently, and EVERYONE in fact feels that they are being treated differently. In fact, everyone IS treated differently for one reason or another. Minority races are indeed more sensitive about it, and read more into a comment or question than is intended.
I attended St. John’s University as an undergraduate. One of my closest pals there was a Jewish fellow named Elliot whom I thought I knew well enough to ask in a jocular manner what he was doing in a Catholic University. His retort was swift and pointed: “Why, doesn’t a Jewish person have a right to be here?” Another time, an Italian American friend was repeating a joke he had heard to the gang. He started, “There was this little Jewish boy…” when Elliot abruptly cut in “Why is it always a little Jewish boy?” “OK then,” the jokester continued, “There was this little Italian boy.”
Americans are generally sensitve about ethnic and religious background. When Vice President Spiro Agnew was called a Pollack, this was immediately seized upon and corrected - the correct term is Polish. Agnew was not a Pollack. He was a crook. The cultural and ethnic sensitivity became so ingrained in the culture that the Mafia used a group called the “Anti Italian Defamation League” to disparage the idea that there even was an Italian mafia.
But as an ethnic group becomes more integrated into the culture, the sensitivity fades and people learn to laugh at themselves. Some of the best Jewish jokes were told to me by Jews, and black jokes by blacks. Of course, white people don’t get to repeat them. Here are some jokes shared with me by ethnic insiders:
A black friend told me this one about Nut ‘N Honey cereal: “Have you heard of the new breakfast cereal for African Americans? ‘Ain’t Nuttin Bitch’”
A Polish friend told me this one: ” A guy walks into a store and asks for a pound of kielbassi. The clerk responds “Are you Polish?” The customer exclaims: “What is this? If I asked for a watermellon, would you ask if I were black? If I asked for Italian sausage would you ask if I were Italian?” “No,” responds the clerk, “but this is a hardware store.”
A Korean guy in Germany who can’t speak a word of German walks into a restaraunt wondering how he’s going to order breakfast. He sees an American guy walk over to the chef and pantamime a jerking off motion with his hand. The chef goes into the kitchen and returns a few minutes later with a nice big plate containing a huge sausage with two nice sized hard boiled eggs on either side. So the Korean guy walks over to the chef and makes the same gesture. The chef walks into the kitchen and returns a few minutes later with a tiny plate containing a baby carrot and two grapes.
mizar, won’t you tell us about your own experience as a korean in america.
Sure thing, pawi. It’s kind of boring and kind of long. But let me say that I have experienced more discrimination as a male than for my race.
FOr instance, in my personal experience in financial marketing, women tend to dominate the VP positions and tend to promote other women at the expense of men. Don’t get me wrong - The diversity goal is a great ideal, and improvement opportunities still abound. But in some regard, there has been a swing in the opposite direction that has been deleterious.
I have criticised Samsung for its management foibles. US companies have their own problems, which are different but also daunting. Let me highlight one American corporate problem among many:
In US financial corporations (I have worked for several) it appears that upper level management, which remains male, promotes women to the junior officer position level (VP) because IMO 1. women appear easier for upper management to control; 2. they get away with toughness without facing anti-discrimination suits, whereas men generally need to tred lightly these days.
The dirty little secret problem with women executives is that many of these women executives have had to be tougher than men to compete, and the ones who make it to that level can be overbearing and discriminatory. While management consultant Tom Peters http://www.tompeters.com/ extols the traits of women that supposedly make them superior managers to men, in my personal experience, they have generally been much worse than male managers and extremely discriminatory.
Don’t get me wrong, I am a women’s libber from the early 70’s, and I can only speak from personal experience in my specific industry. And to a great extent, the character of the corporation itself can be blamed for elevating aggressive, backbiting individuals to executive positions. When women have to outdo men in order to make it in this kind of questionable environment, it is perhaps to be expected that this kind of abuse will occur.
“If he spoke with an accent he probably would be asked where he’s from. It differentiates him, just as an Asian face does. Americans are just curious about “nationality” in general.”
That’s sort of my point miz; an accent is cultural, and if your culture is ‘American’ then your face shouldn’t matter…this is what I believe is the American ideal, and for the most part, it is the case. Let’s face it though, as you said, the Asian face does cause differentiation in attitude at the moment.
Thus, while you may paradoxically suggest it’s simply curiousness of nationality, that isn’t really the case when the answer to that was already ‘American’, but is continuously probed.
I wouldn’t say it’s so generic as, “Oh everyone gets asked that, everyone gets treated differently, x people are just mooore sensitive on the issue”.
However, there’s nothing wrong about being curious about race either, I agree it’s completely natural and thus I tried to make it clear that it’s not in malice or for segregation purposes. The rest of the verbiage in your post seems to stem from our differing opinion of the American ideal I guess, so I’ll simply agree that we disagree on that, but it still was somewhat of an interesting and amusing read, thanks for sharing it miz.
You’re welcome. I enjoyed your post as well.