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You Know, I Think This Foreigner-Too Protest on July 5 is a Terrible Idea…
This entry was written by Robert Koehler, posted on July 3, 2008 at 1:57 pm, filed under Ministry of Barbarian Affairs, Stupid Foreigner Tricks. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.
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48 Comments
Amnesty International Korea chapter, controlled by Koreans is investigating Korean police and government for human rights abuses. I hope they’ll also investigate any human rights violations against foreign protesters.
I think they forgot what “International” means. For that matter they must not know what “Amnesty” means either. Who and what do they want LMB to pardon?
Good Lord! I think most westerners are culturally incapable of understanding that Koreans are different, fundamentally different. They are hypersensitive to criticism, and they especially detest hearing criticisms from foreigners; they will often do the exact opposite, just out of spite. Han and stubbornness is in the Koreans’ DNA.
Take this issue: cruelty to animals is rampant in Korea. There are very few animal shelters (you can count them on one hand) for a country of over 40 million people. Heck, beating chained dogs mercilessly while still alive in order to tenderize the meat (and get the adrenaline flowing) is still widely practiced, and barely a peek from animals rights advocates (again you can count them on one hand). Just try criticizing Koreans for cruelty to animals and you will be deluged by ridiculous non sequiturs such as, “Well, look at the way you mistreated all those Red Men, Mr. Hines Ward!” (inside joke).
So this foreigners’ protest demonstration will stur up a hornets’ nest and will make matter much worse. Let Koreans be Korean, and let the law of karma take effect. Eventually everybody gets what they deserve, one way or the other.
#3: I disagree. We are not “culturally incapable of understanding that Koreans are different”. We fully understand how myopic, hyper-sensitive, unjustifiably arrogant, xenophobic and backward-arsed Koreans are.
But you are right about letting karma take its course regarding all this. Let Korea protest and demostrate its way back to the Middle Ages.
#4 But Anton, how do you really feel?….
“stubbornness is in the Koreans’ DNA.”
# 3,
Ah, yes… stereotype them all.
It’s starting to get tasteless and childish now.
# 6. Yes, indeed. It must be the heat and the humidity that are driving us mad.
#6
It is rather naive to say that there such a statement does not have a kernel of truth. Of course the behavior of Koreans are not innately fated in their genes. However, the cultural priming and socialization of Korean culture does tend overall to induce a stubborn streak in its members overall. I think it’s rather childish to just take metaphorical statements at face value, throw your hands up in the air, set up a strawman, and call it a day.
#3
Just because Koreans are so culturally different, especially when juxtaposed to Western nations, does not mean that foreigners should just bend to what is expected. Besides the inability to deal with straight-forward criticism very well, Koreans (in the general populace) also lack the ability to genuinely self-reflect. They tend to blame problems any blowback on irrelevant outside forces, which induces more problems. Since there are individuals in the populace who may constructive advice from foreign criticism, attitudes can be changed over time with such actions. Stubbornness isn’t COMPLETELY pervasive, just one of the dominant idiosyncrasies amongst Koreans.
Also, please refrain from using some term like “law of karma” without knowing the correct meaning of the word. It can be rather annoying for Buddhists when their ideologies are carelessly used like that.
#4
Don’t be an ass.
Okay, I agree with the karma statement. Pet peeve of mine and I’m not even Buddhist!
…and forgive my ignorance about this, but when Koreans talk about ‘Han’…I thought that was Chinese? Why would Koreans embrace something from their past oppressors, something not Korean?
Ghost Yoon wrote:
Also, please refrain from using some term like “law of karma” without knowing the correct meaning of the word. It can be rather annoying for Buddhists when their ideologies are carelessly used like that.
#4
Don’t be an ass.
I’m assuming you’re Buddhist, hence the terse scolding about the correct meaning of karma. Say, won’t a Buddhist accummulate bad karma by calling someone an ass? Or is this acceptable in Korean Buddhism? We need some enlightenment here.
I’m going to ask that all parties chill and converse in a polite, racism-free manner.
Thank you for your cooperation.
I believe there are many Koreans quite capable of self-reflection and have met them. Yet, here in the eye of the storm, many are fearful to voice dissent.
Some have said that we should face some of these demonstration leaders and try to engage them, that we would in fact be surprised by their candor and thoughtfulness. This may be true but I believe, in general, they are not interested in discussion. I have experienced a preponderance of argumentative persuasion reliant on vitriol, invective and volume, not on veracity. I can’t afford the dry-cleaning.
To those who are making racist comments about Koreans and using this to stir up shit (and I’ve been disappointed to read such crap from other sites which I won’t bother naming). You are not much better. And in addition, read this article. The organizers of the “foreigner’s protest” are Koreans and many of the participants are Koreans. I dare you to go to that march, and talk the same shit in their faces.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/ww.....26991.html
And another thing. Koreans are often chastised for not speaking up in Korea to point out what’s wrong under public and societal pressure. But when foreigners have the courage to speak up their mind, “oh no, that’s wrong.. it’ll never work.. don’t bother it’s all useless..” etc etc etc etc.
#13-14: Well said.
Wow, you’ve been busy, Robt. Excellent bunch of posts.
yoon: “Also, please refrain from using some term like “law of karma” without knowing the correct meaning of the word. It can be rather annoying for Buddhists when their ideologies are carelessly used like that.”
Just how do you presume to know that the writer doesn’t know the “correct meaning of the word?” Are you arguing from omniscience, presuming to know the content of his mind, and which of the many definitions of karma used in various Buddhist traditions are you upholding as the “correct” version?
To represent “karma” as a Buddhist concept is not correct. The term is in fact pre-Buddhist, and is common to 4 Indian religions that arose simultaneously in raction to Brahmanism in India: Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism.
Karma is a Sanskrit word meaning action or activity that usually implies its subsequent results, and the sense in which he is using it denotes karma-phala, or fruits of action, which commonly describes the entire cycle of cause and effect as described in the philosophies named above.
The common understanding of the term is that individuals undergo certain experiences throughout their lives as a result of actions which they have chosen, making one responsible for one’s own life, and the pain and joy it brings to others and in religions that incorporate reincarnation (which, strictly speaking, original Buddhism arguably does not), karma extends into future lives.
Original Buddhist teachings appear to interpret karma sans the notion of a perfect moral equilibrium present in Hinduism, while some Buddhist teachings on karma, especially Mahayana Buddhism add the notion of the transfer of merit or karma, corresponding to earlier Hindu teachings.
Sorry to sound as if I’m knitpicking about knitpicking. To some extent, however that’s what Buddhists do. As someone who has practiced and studied Buddhism from youth, I can understand basilides’ use of the term and find no fault in his statement.
As an aside, I became disillusioned with Buddhism as practiced in Korea, just as I am disillusioned with what the Christians are doing here. Korean Buddhism traditionally has its own character(s) but what Koreans call Buddhism today is simply corrupt.
Mizar is correct. As someone who has spent enormous amount of time in a Zen monastery and read much Eastern religious literature, I can testify that 1) “karma” pre-dates Buddhism and goes as far back as the Upanishads; and 2) I see no reason to accuse Anton of using the term in an incorrect manner.
Robert,
Could we please have the preview post function back? Help an ESL student out, brotha!
Won Joon (Sunim?) May I ask which one?
Sperwer,
I was a student of Seung Sahn and some of his disciples for some 20 years.
Seung Sahn sunim was an interesting character. “Only don’t know.” Is he still with us?
No, he’s been gone for a while. I haven’t been affiliated with his school since my law school days, but it appears that a lot of his leading students have separated, fracturing the school.
Thanks, that’s what I guessed. I studied with John Daido Loori (ZMM, Mt. Tremper), Jakusho Kwong-roshi (one of Shunryu Suzuki’s original American students) (Sonoma ZC) and (the controversial) Eido Shimano Roshi @ Dai Bosatsu.
Sperwer,
I believe Jakusho Kwong Roshi was a close friend of Seung Sahn. He came to Kwan Um School’s major ceremonies quite frequently. I’ve heard of Daido Loori, but never heard of the last one (but as for him being “controversial”–can you get more controversial than persuading your female students to sleep with you on the pretext that doing so would implant them with some of your “energy”?).
Kwong Roshi was a good friend of Seung Sahn’s and Trungpa; there are shrines to both at Sonoma ZC. Shimano was controversial for just the reason you mention.
I think this is much less about karma and much more about Darwin.
Sperwer,
If that’s why Shimano was controversial, then how is he different from Seung Sahn? Seung Sahn’s sexual misconduct has been widely documented.
Won Joon: No difference; just noting the fact. I think Shimano was just earlier in time. Trungpa and some of his “spawn” were obviously worse, since they were literally infecting people of both sexes.
I see. You can see why I have now become disaffected of all teachings that demand their adherents to abandon reason. The way of Socrates (or Strauss!) is the only human way.
“Disaffected WITH”!
Won Joon Choe: “You can see why I have now become disaffected of all teachings that demand their adherents to abandon reason. The way of Socrates (or Strauss!) is the only human way.”
Interesting comment. The classic conflict between reason and emotion has always fascinated me. It’s the concept behind the Vulcan archetype of Gene Roddenberry. How interesting that the Vulcans, for all their logic, need to employ meditation to maintain their mental state. Logic has its limitations too, as recognized by the Tibetans with their emphasis on the balance of compassion and wisdom. Their methodology uses emotion rather than denies it, tempering it with a very formal system of logic.
The Chan school (sun in Korean, zen in Japanese) intends to do away with logic altogether in order to break through to the realm of direct experience. Unfortanately, it doesn’t appear to adequately address what happens when you’re not meditating (the oxherder returning from the mountain to the market).
The trick seems to be to harness emotion with wisdom, because without passion there is no progress (as evolution indicates, life appears to be continually in a state of progress and decay).
The philosphical aspects of Buddhism are intriguing, and the methodologies of things like mindfulness and Tibetan visualization techniques can be very beneficial. But when it comes to dogma and superstition, I’m afraid Buddhism is as much mired in BS as Christianity.
If Buddhism has been less destructive historically than Christianity, Hinduism or Islam, it is possibly because of the introspective element. But as Korean history and contemporary events demonstrates, it is not immune from politics and corruption. I find the current state of religion in Korea today to he deplorably self-serving. This, more than anything has turned me off to Buddhism, although, as a general practice, it retains sound practical elements. Of course, religion is corrupt to one extent or another everywhere it exists. I suppose that today I am in line with Won Joon Choe upholding reason and am most sympathetic to Richard Dawkins. What this means is not that I am “right” and others “wrong” but that my particualr personal mythology follows a Western line of logic derived from the Greeks.
Mizar,
You touch too complex and diverse a strand for me respond in this space. But I would add one thing. Socratic rationalism, unlike its modern counterparts, is comprehensive and takes into account the whole of human psychological phenomena. That is, it does not–unlike the rationalism of a Hobbes or his less intelligent and self-aware contemporary of heirs–reduce the human mind to a calculating machine.
By the way, it’s frequently repeated that Seung Sahn was an avid reader of Plato in his younger days–though I doubt he understood Plato all that well (or that adequate translations were even available back then).
Won Joon Choe, it is a pleasure to read your thoughtful posts.
I guess I will address people’s comments case by case. Oh, and yes, I am a Zen Buddhist.
#10
I said ass. Oops, can’t say ass on the internet. Sure, I could’ve said “please do not be so blunt and obtuse in your commentary that is also obviously incendiary”. But I think my point got across in a shorter fashion in one word. What constitutes an insult? Hell I’m told I should kill the Buddha if I ever see him walking in the streets. How negative karma is accumulated is different amongst Buddhists and intention is nine tenths here.
17
mizar5, I am not expressing I have omniscience. And yes, I do realize that
a. Various buddhists traditions have different definitions and different variations on what Karma is and how it works
b. I know Buddhism isn’t the first to express the idea of Karma. I know the historical lineage of Buddhism from Hinduism and how it is expressed in other Indian-based religions.
It doesn’t change my assessment that it can irk Buddhists when their ideologies are thrown around. I never validated any statement saying karma was a Buddhism exclusive idea. And in all fairness, I suppose I do need to extrapolate on what I said.
By my comment, I meant that some Buddhists, including I, simply do not enjoy people throwing around the term karma like some short-hand for “what comes around goes around”.
I also do not enjoy the use of the phrase “law of karma” because karma is not some law. Law connotes some form of justice. But karma is not just. It simply exists. If it was just, whose viewpoint would it consider? From several of the Koreans’, they should be rewarded for taming the oppressive American capital forces that is trying to assimilate their society and spread tainted beef and beef by-products. If you say causing civil disorder is warrant for negative karma, then I suppose MLK should have been shot (sorry for being crass but I am making suppositions here).
Unless you mean a law as in a physical law, a natural law. By which then I have a different issue with the phrasing “law of karma” since that implies the law cannot be broken as it is a natural law, which is not true since Buddhism is an attempt to break the karmic cycle.
Karma is karma, and a law is a law.
18. You may not see it, but I see differently. Is there any reason for your views to be more valid simply because you spent more time at monasteries? I didn’t realize I need credentials in Zen Buddhism to back up my statements. Would you like two forms of photo ID also?
32. It is more interesting considering the first Buddha has said to not deal with bullcrap myths because they deviate from trying to achieve enlightenment.
This post took way too long.
Thank you for yur clarifications, ghost.yoon. Nioe to make your acquaintance.
You wrote:
“I also do not enjoy the use of the phrase “law of karma” because karma is not some law. Law connotes some form of justice. But karma is not just. It simply exists. If it was just, whose viewpoint would it consider?”
Nice exposition.
“From several of the Koreans’, they should be rewarded for taming the oppressive American capital forces that is trying to assimilate their society and spread tainted beef and beef by-products. If you say causing civil disorder is warrant for negative karma, then I suppose MLK should have been shot (sorry for being crass but I am making suppositions here).”
I personally see karma as a web of interdependencies rather than as a simple linear agent of justice. One action creates a web of influences that each create their own webs of influence.
Thus, it is impossible to simply say A causes B, or A is evil so it brings retribution B (strictly speaking, there is no “evil” existing from its own side, as this is descriptive of a cognitive interpretation of events).
Actions rather initiate a chain of probable reactions that can seldom be quite accurately predicted due as a myriad of intervening circumstances affect the outcome. However, since a Monte Carlo probability analysis could provide some clues as to the relative probabilities of various outcomes, it is not entirely invalid to venture educated guesses about potential outcomes of certain actions.
Most foreigners are guessing that the demonstrations will exert net negative effects on Korean society. I’m with that crowd. But this is by no means a certainty; optimistic outcomes are not out of the question, only less probable.
The sentiment I share is that reinforcing the undesirable behaviors behind the protest will likely perpetrate and possibly exacerbate the undesirable behaviors, causing an exponential effect.
These undesirable behaviors include but are not limited to: irrationality, lawlessness, the martyr complex, the rejection of the concept of personal responsibility, conformicist bullying and intolerence for dissent, ends-justify-the-means propagandist disregard for intellectual honesty, xenophobia, scapegoating, self-righteousness, arrogance, violence…
I think the list is comprehensive enough that it is relatively safe bet that the karma of these acts is bound to come back to harm the perpetrators.
Okay, can someone explain this ‘Han’ thing to me, since things are being explained here?
“Han” is a plaintive sense of pathos that Koreans say is one of the defining, differentiating elements of Korean identity. It is exemplified in traditional folk music, such as “Arirang”, the real “national anthem” of the Korean people, which speaks of the separation from a loved one who has left to traverse the Arirang mountain passage. Koreans attribute it to a history of hardship, so it closely parallels African American “blues” or Jewish angst, informing the Korean world view and permeating Korean arts.
cm in # 13 and 14 I think. If you believe what I said is racist then I’m not going to sit here and argue with you. You tell me that the dissenting voice being shouted down is not more of the norm then so be it, although I think you’ve actually stated it being the case on more than one occasion.
It’s pretty easy to goad me into going out and facing off with these protesters while you’re in Canada thoughtfully rubbing your chin. If I am attacked and defend myself, guess who’s going to jail?
If Koreans are the ones who have organized this counter demonstration this weekend I am delighted. I wish them all the luck in the world. But I am through with standing up and having it interpreted as something different simply because of my citizenship.
By the way, I will continue to post whatever the frig I think is right no matter what you say, and it doesn’t matter whether I join that demonstration or not. I’m not going to risk going to jail. I have a family.
If you feel strongly about it buy a friggin plane ticket!
mizar5, it is true that there is definitely no one to one linear correlation in an action and some form of what is seemingly divine retribution. I do agree in that sentiment. If I was to win ten thousand dollars and get hit by a car and immediately, it would be improper for me to call one the karmic feedback of the other.
As for whether negative blowback is the most probable outcome, I believe that it is rash for any individual human being to make any predictions on the future, especially in the long-run, especially on something as large as a whole culture and nation-state.
Also, I don’t know if an entire society can retain karma, since the issue of what constitutes a society arises, and how far a societal identity extends, as well as a host of other problems, all of which is not even clearly known amongst sociologists, so I’ll decline to go any further than this.
I love when the Han thing gets linked to the African American experience and Koreans just start wincing… And then you add the ‘and we both say “brother” and “sister” - geez, I guess Koreans and Americans have a lot in common culturally speaking. That’s when they loose it: “No! No! No we don’t!!”
Again, Koreans have no problem teaching teaching anti-US and anti-Japanese propaganda in their schools, but the foreigners can’t say anything about them. It’s racist and insensitive for foreigners to do that, so say the people who profess racial purity.
All-in-all, Koreans are the same. For YEARS I’ve been hearing that there is no I in Korea, only We. At least when it’s to their advantage. If you deviate from this you are being a hypocrite…technically.
I’ll be culturally sensitive and agree that their is no I in Korea. When in Korea…
Funny thing, Koreans can go to the US and protest, but foreigners are insensitive assholes if they do it here.
In general, I think foreigners protestiing in Korea is a bad idea.
Former Nork military people as body guards. Why are they doing it?
Remember that time that JohnT posted something that didn’t bitterly completely blast Koreans or their culture? I don’t.
Since the protest is organized and supported by KA who I believe are the ultimate victums to this beef fiasco so let them fight/reason each other out in the street..
Foreigners especially the westerners should not become KA’s 들러리 (lackey, sick kick) Let’s not lower our standard to their level..
Anyways, Happy birthday AMERICA!!
Happy Bday indeed. A great day to spend my country’s bday: in the office.
#40, Maddlew, I didn’t accuse you of being racist, and I wasn’t talking about you.
Sorry, I took it the wrong way, cm. With it coming on the heels of my post I suppose I rather egocentrically assumed.
I have really appreciated your balanced input lately and I agree with you, there is often the stench of hypocracy coming from a few expats. If I were single I believe I would certainly join the fray and take a beating for a good cause while making sure someone had a camera rolling. It wouldn’t be the first time I’d had my ass kicked. One thing I’ll never understand is the propensity here in asia, not just in Korea, to go ten on one. Where’s the honor in that?
Anyway, have a great fourth, cm, and happy belated Canada Day!