NOTE: Yes, I realize this story has something to do with Andy’s post below. I have no idea what’s what — all I’ve done here is summarize what I’ve read.
The Hanguk Ilbo reports that with tensions between protesters and anti-protest protesters on the rise, hundreds of resident foreigners will be attending an anti-candlelight protest demonstration.
The “Citizens Alliance Against Radical Illegal Candlelight Demonstrations” (a.k.a. No No Demo) announced yesterday that 500-600 foreign students and about 100 English teachers planned to attend a rally set for 5–8pm on July 5. Some 100 foreign laborers and Korean-Americans will also attend.
An official from the group said hundreds of resident foreigners have expressed their intention to voluntarily attend the demonstration. The official said that in the face of loud demands for the beef import deal to be renegotiated, the foreigners could not voice their own opinions about US beef, and that after they learned of the alliance’s online cafe, they contacted it looking to participate. He said the largest number of foreigners would be students in their 20s—30s.
He noted that the students not only wished to oppose the radical demonstrations, but also ask the candle crowd to pay attention to North Korean human rights.
Foreigners from all over, including the United States, Australia, Canada, Europe and Japan would attend.
Korean-Americans plan to attend following a performance asking the protesters to raise their candles instead for North Korean human rights. According to the alliance, the protest will also put to rest arguments that Americans don’t eat 30-month-old beef.
The group will be protected — get this — by some 300 volunteer body guards from an association of ex-North Korean soldiers who have defected to the South. The alliance official said this was because previous protests have met with friction with the candle crowd, and they wished for no more.
If you’re planning to steal some weed from a protesting English teacher, know that North Korean vets have their backs. You’ve been warned.
The demonstration is expected to get some 1,000 participants, making it the largest counter-demonstration yet. The demonstration will take place at the same time as a major anti-US beef demonstration, so some are worried about a potential conflict.
92 Comments
This could be a huge mess.
Now I just have to figure out how to get down there and watch it all without get drug into it and beaten with a pipe, shield, or ex-NK soldier’s 태권도 kick.
A few things could go wrong…
Oh my God…
If there ever was a main event showdown in Korea…this could be it.
I would seriously pay top dollar to see this live..
Candlelight Nutizen Idiots vs. North Korean Vet Protected Expats
any recs for a safe place to view this?
this is one i got to see
Not sure it’s a good idea to link the “Citizens Alliance Against Radical Illegal Candlelight Demonstrations” (which I think is a complete waste of time) with a genuinely good cause in North Korean human rights. The latter could probably do without being pro-beef, since its irrelevent and unnecessarily provocative; all you’re going to do is make people suspicious about the motives behind the group, probably lose the support of a lot of people who might otherwise be sympathetic.
A peaceful demonstration without the in-your face we love US beef agenda would be a much better idea IMHO.
I get the feeling there are going to be a lot of Waeguks getting involved to stir up shit, rather than out of any sympathy for the NK people.
one of the high rise buildings around the area might be a good place to watch
ultimately i see foreigners getting their asses kicked by nut jobs and no one gets in trouble for it
just like any other day in korea
Unfortunately, I don’t think either would be particularly effective. In fact, the “in-your-face-we-love-US-beef” stuff” without the North Korea talk would probably garner the most sympathy, if not from the candle-burners, that at least from the general public.
I don’t know if a lot of waeguks are going to be involved, period. But if there are, I’d imagine a good many will be there to stir up shit. Might prove interesting, at any rate.
Interesting to say the least. Should be a riot (pun intended).
. . . is this for real? I mean, really, really REAL?
Isn’t it illegal for foreigners to be involved in these demonstrations? Then on account of that, and the fact that the demonstration might be illegal in and of itself regardless of the nationality of the protesters, does it not become… double illegal?
Under the Roh regime everybody would get deported for sure, ex NK included. This will be interesting.
I wouldn’t write off the genuineness of concern for NK human rights among the ESL teacher community. I’ve had conversations with a few of them over the years who are disturbed about the South’s hypocrisy in the matter.
In any event (assuming all this is for real) former NK bodyguards is an outstanding tactical move.
Too bad US servicemembers can’t attend this without damaging USFK.
“I wouldn’t write off the genuineness of concern for NK human rights among the ESL teacher community.”
Nor would I, but is linking NK human rights with the Mad Cow stuff really the best way to make their point? Won’t this just confirm many Korean protestors’ default stereotype of foreigners as being arrogant and unable to understand “Korean culture”?
#11
I talked with one of the folks from LiNK. They have a permit for their march.
I can’t speak to the other part, but foreigners have participated in these in the past without any trouble except from lefty student groups.
#11, captbbq, I think the issue of legality revolves around whether people are violating the terms of their visas or not. If your visa states that you may “legally reside in Korea for the purposes of political agitation” then you should be sweet.
14″ Nor would I, but is linking NK human rights with the Mad Cow stuff really the best way to make their point? Won’t this just confirm many Korean protestors’ default stereotype of foreigners as being arrogant and unable to understand “Korean culture”?”
Wouldn’t make a difference either way. Koreans cling to their stereotypes no matter what FACTS you may present them.
The silly babies down South need a reminder that their only “brothers” up North that are getting any kind of beef to eat at all are KJI and his cronies.
They could also use a reminder that they have systematically ignored the plight of North Koreans for 10 years now while engaged in an anti-US orgy.
IMHO, the linkage is appropriate, and btw, evidently some North Koreans agree with me.
#11 Pretty sure the chinese students recently have proven that foreigners can protest, and even wound riot police without much in the way of repercussions. So, there is some precedent of acceptance of foreigners protesting.
#13 And, too bad the USFK can’t drive their tanks down Sejongro equipped with cow-catchers or snow-plows.
Crakus, Eujin:
The ROK-US SOFA specifically states USFK service members and their family members will not engage in any political activity while stationed in Korea:
Regards,
Charlie,
The KimcheeGI
#18 “cow-catchers” Nice pun!
I’m thinking watching this while drinking cold brews at the Texas Bar down the stream is going to be the way to experience this.
and they have Guiness at Texas bar too!
do they have Bitburger or at least Beck’s?
ex-North Korean body guards maybe needed to ward off the protesting North Korean agitators. I hope this will remind and shame those numnut Catholics who are candle light protesting, that there are better causes to protest other than beef.
Jackass!
Trying to get this one straight in my head. It’s not easy.
#23: Definitely Becks. Quite a few others as well. See you guys there? Anyone else?
Foreigners protesting
+
Angry Koreans
+
Threats of violence
+
North Korean ex-soldiers as security
+
(and here’s the kicker for me)
Visions of tanks with “cow-catchers”
____________________________
= Hairy Soylent Green on Emart shelves by early next week !
I GOTTA GET OUTTA’ HERE !!!!!!!
As much as I can really sympathize with the objectives of this demonstration, I have a piece of advice.
Why not get in some practice beforehand by walking into a bullpen with a red flag? By doing so, intended demonstrators can test their cool, reactions and physical condition.
Seriously, foreigners demonstrating for any reason in Korea are taking risks of deportation — particularly if things turn ugly. It only takes a couple of assholes on either side to turn a nonviolent protest into a real donnybrook.
This also has the potential of a xenophobic (there’s that word again…) blow back towards foreigners. On the other hand, photos of bloodied foreign demonstrators could act as a stimulus for the conservatives to really assert themselves.
The more I think about this, the more I agree with The Goat’s comment above.
Add another equation to this farce:
The Korean branch of Amnesty International is investigating the Korean police brutality and human right violations against the candle light protesters.
All the lefties are crawling out of the rocks.
#27: “Definitely Becks. Quite a few others as well. See you guys there? Anyone else?”
Now I’m in a bind! Would love to tip brews with you guys but I’ve got a previous mandatory event to attend here. Wish I could make it, but after a few Beck’s I’d probably join the protests…
Another trip to the Pa-Chul-Seo…
Foreigners demonstrating in Korea: don’t even think about it. It will agitate an already xenophobic people.
Let a hundred schools of thought contend..
Lemmingstock 2008 has mostly given way to hard-core bitter-enders on the left, who lean toward, if not answer to, North Korea. Foreigners mix beef and North Korea with this crowd at risk of violence, with the usual slim chances of accurate media coverage or legal redress.
So damn tempted to go… Might just find me at the Texas too.
I’m going, to do what I should have done a long time ago; tell how I really feel about human rights in the DPRK and the complicity of people here who stand by and watch it. As for the threats of violence etc, what was it someone said about the necessary conditions for evil being that good men do nothing?
Sounds like a ripe mess to me. Stay safe you crazy bastards.
I’d liked to have added; “A new age has begun, an age of freedom. And all will know that 300 ex-North Korean soldiers gave their last breath to defend it.”
Oh come on, aaronm. Gimme a break! What do you care about NK human rights? You’re going there because you hate Koreans and want to stick it to them.
HURRAH!!! For the 1st time I almost wish I was back in Korea. I hope this gets LOTS of publicity.
captbbq: “Isn’t it illegal for foreigners to be involved in these demonstrations?”
When lawmakers participate in illegal demonstrations and engage in displays of public violence, this hardly matters.
Legality is strictly contextual in Korea.
Not a good idea, considering that the Kyopo will now become a target of retribution and hate among the radical left.
That is assuming that the above protest goes through.
The U.S. Embassy sent out a warning today about the protests and advised us “meegooks” not to go down there.
Texas Bar, sounds good, I’ll bring my camera.
The vast majority of South Koreans don’t give a rat’s ass about human rights violations in North Korea. And if foreigners demonstrate in the streets and criticize South Koreans for their lack of concern for their northern brethren, well, South Koreans will react with the usual xenophobic hysteria. You simply do not criticize Koreans and get away with it. In Korea, anyway. It is not tolerated. (Cf. Brian in ChollaNamdo’s current ordeal.) So don’t bother getting involved in any demonstration. Big waste of time.
#46 “Big waste of time.’
But not a waste of principle. Even among an unprincipled people.
#36, Andy, “Oh come on, aaronm. Gimme a break! What do you care about NK human rights? You’re going there because you hate Koreans and want to stick it to them.”
I neither hate Koreans nor want to stick it to them. The only people I want to “stick it to*” are those who have an interest in helping KJI keep torturing his people.
*in a completely non-violent fashion, of course.
Have a feelin’ it’s gonna be a bunch of folks lookin’ at each other at the Texas.
“I’m not gonna try it — you try it!”
Better get Mikey to try it.
#27 Wedge, I’ll join you there — after the demo, of course. Assuming, that is, that I don’t get my nuts kicked in by a nutizen.
In the black clothes, we are going to be easy targets. I’m all for the cause — but will bolt for Texas at the first sign of fisticuffs.
Trying to figure out what sign to make. “Koreans killed by US beef: 0. Koreans killed by KJI: Countless.” Doesn’t have a ring to it, though.
Need something punchier.
“Go Back to Science and History Class.”
“I Pee on Your Candle.” Something like that.
Where is this Texas Bar, maps, directions? I’m up for a post-protest ale or ten as Saturday night is my only one on the turps.
#46: Forget literal melody whitey, that Beef/KJI comparison would be a great sign. I’m afraid they wouldn’t really get the history/pee thing. Just make sure you wear a cup, take a few shots of soju (will help blur the massive enemy numbers), and have fun! Should make for some great pics at least
I’d like to be in this protest…
In thinking about it, I can see it going all kinds of ways.
I hope some of the marchers are planning to bring video cameras and get the stuff up on You Tube and the likes.
I can picture the resulting videos being something like the nightly news during the Civil Rights Movement in the US:
It might be one thing for Koreans to regularly see other Koreans fighting with riot police - even using steel pipes.
But it might be another seeing the typical protest violence - aimed at foreigners.
I think if the video and pictures of the violence (that will probably take place) only circulate in the Korean news - it won’t have much of an impact: the average Korean might even get pissed off at the foreigners for interfering in Korea’s nationalism stoking…
….but….if those videos are up on You Tube and other international sites and get a lot of play — especially if they and/or the protests are mentioned in the NY Times of Washington Post –
— I can see it having a big impact on Korea. Of making Korean society focus more real attention and discussion on its protest culture.
It took blacks (with a few others) being beaten in the streets and attacked by police dogs and the full show of ugly racism — in front of every American’s eye in the national news — before the Civil Rights Movement could become effective. We had to witness the ugliness in a fashion we couldn’t easily avoid.
I don’t know how this will work in Korea with the protesters being protected by ex NK soldiers — or even the South Korean veterans groups who have shown they don’t mind fighting fire with fire…
Korea isn’t the US…..and I’m not sure how much damage fighting fire with fire will have on what the marchers hope to accomplish…???
In the US, scenes of ex-soldiers duking it out with Korean “progressives” would likely hurt both sides….
…but maybe not in Korea…
I guess time will tell….
I’d really like to be there….
….and I’d really like to be there with my video camera — and possibly a backup it that one got busted to shit…
This is reading like the setup to a Darwin Awards citation. Please attend, and don’t just wuss out at the Texas.
It’s for the good of the gene pool.
MY counter demonstration will be to grill at least 8 steaks and enjoy one of those and some spareribs over the weekend.
The anti-beef and the pro-Nork folks can eat their candles. Or some tasty deep-fat-fried-rat-on-a-stick from a street vendor. Or grass soup. It’s all up to them…
But I think they need more sleep, less smoke, and absolutely no more gay pr0n starring KJI’s son.
I can’t see it happening.
What I would like to see is some anti-US Korean protesters go to the US and get a real thrashing. Then get put in real jail.
Wow… you can’t MAKE this stuff up!..
# 51,
Your counter demonstration could be to bbq steaks right by to Seoul city hall, pour A1 steak sauce (spicy tabasco variety) and pass out free samples, on paper plates with the American flag on it, to random people in the crowd.
Trust me, Koreans won’t be able to resist a piece of a nice juicy American steak drenched in A1 spicy tabasco steak sauce.
#54, I’m not in the business of selling beef. I’m not in the business of giving away food to loafers. And any steak that needs A1 sauce isn’t cooked correctly…
But I agree. We had a few college students at our church that regularly complained about the “US Hegemony”; but had no problems consuming vast quantities of the American Beef we served at out church picnics…
Without candles.
And we’ve even got pictures (somewhere)…
I got recruited by LiNK to go, but since I’m 120lbs and wasn’t allowed to bring my concealed weapon I think I’ll stay home.
I believe the best outcome from all this would be if these counter-demonstrator groups suddenly develop the properties of matter/antimatter and wind up annihilating one another.
This would fuel flame of the anti-Americansism and would lead those demonstrators to the U.S bases which might be the real plan of lefty civic groups. Good intention, not a good way to express.
This would fuel the flame of the anti-Americansism and would lead those demonstrators to the U.S bases which might be the real plan of lefty civic groups. Good intention, not a good way to express.
Having been humiliated by Chinese protesters, Korea (or its police) may be more determined not to let foreigners get away with anything close to that again…maybe… Just be careful.
Promoting awareness of the plight of North Koreans = good
Linking to anti-protest protests/US beef imports = needlessly antagonistic/asking for trouble IMHO
I don’t see why you have to bring weed into this. stupid.
I’d like to see the foreign protesters stir it up and make Koreans snap out of this trance. I saw a KBS show which basically show clips of 1980 Kwangju and 1987 democracy uprising, linking them to the current beef protests. In internet sites like Naver which are frequented by many young Koreans, it’s a similar pattern of thought. To them, this is fighting for Democracy. But it’s absolute horse shit and somebody outside of Korean frame of mind should speak up and tell them so. Because any Korean who speaks up about it, isn’t taken very seriously by these young people who grew up under the KTU’s thought control in education.
# 58,
Yes I love to drown my steaks. Spicy Korean food has spoiled me rotten. My current favorite? Marinating a porterhouse overnight in spicy ponzu sauce and lemon juice and fresh ground pepper.
I do find that aged “rancher’s choice” beef cuts are more flavorful than even U.S.D.A. Choice steaks, and I would consider eating that without anything added.
“..he noted that the students not only wished to oppose the radical demonstrations, but also ask the candle crowd to pay attention to North Korean human rights.”
Why would any non-Korean think they can instruct a South Korean on how to think about North Korea? Don’t set yourself between North and South Korea. No good can come from asking South Koreans to “pay attention” to anything concerning North Korea.
There are many South Koreans whose parents were born in North Korea and lived through the war. This is not something they need to “pay attention” to; it’s an integral part of their life. Asking ajumma on City Hall lawn to pay attention to North Korea is an insult.
Enough with the lame jokes, please. Foreigners demonstrating in Seoul (excluding the Chinese, of course — Koreans always kowtow to their Confucian overlords) is out of the question. Don’t even think about it. It will make Koreans even more hysterically xenophobic, if that’s possible. Koreans don’t take advice from foreigners. And criticism? Look at what’s happening to “Brian from ChollaNamdo.” Keep a low profile, for your own good. Foreigners living in Korea should act like anthropologists living among a Stone Age tribe deep in the Amazon jungles. Observe, but don’t interfere. Sooner or later the tribe will go extinct (in Korea’s case, devoured by the Chinese, ala Tibet), so learn as much as you can about the exotic creature before it goes the way of the Dinosaur.
Serious question:
Is S Korean politics destabilizing because of these protests, or does the LMB presidency stand strong? How about the society and the economy? Any effects?
Back of Finance Center, go towards the stream, corner on right just before stream.
“Korea’s case, devoured by the Chinese, ala Tibet”
That’s been a danger since Han established their colonies on the peninsula over 2,000 years ago. But Korea is still not “devoured.”
I wouldn’t bet against consistency.
“Is S Korean politics destabilizing because of these protests, or does the LMB presidency stand strong? ”
National Assembly is shut down because the opposition Liberals have walked out to join the violent protesters. There’s nobody debating, making tough decisions, nor passing any bills. And they call this Democracy.
“How about the society and the economy? Any effects?”
Foreign investors and foreign tourists have been pulling out in mass due to massive xenophobic policies unheard of in any democratic industrialized countries. They’re scared away by endless protests. And the speed is gathering faster. Stock market is crashing as oil prices skyrocket and Korean currency tank. Stagflation is rampaging through, as Korean trade unions have just voted to go on strike to protest the US beef to put the final nail in the coffin.
In other words, Korea is under left wing revolt. They have not accepted electoral defeat and are determined to drag Korea into a crisis to retake power.
Unfortunately, most Koreans are oblivious to this until it is too late. They’re too wrapped up in a manufactured controversy to notice that Korea’s economy is collapsing. Koreans deserve what is coming to them.
basilides: “Don’t even think about it. It will make Koreans even more hysterically xenophobic, if that’s possible.”
It’s not.
“Keep a low profile, for your own good.”
God forbid you lose your visa to live in a nation that’s barely livable.
WangKon:”That’s been a danger since Han established their colonies on the peninsula over 2,000 years ago. But Korea is still not ‘devoured.’ I wouldn’t bet against consistency.”
Nor would I. Korea has whittled itself away to a small half a peninsula which is itself split along East/West regionalism. The trend is fairly obvious.
In next week’s news, the “Citizens Alliance Against Candlelight Protesters, the Restaurant Owners who Protest Against Them, the Religious Leader Protesters who Protest Against the Police who are Harsh on the Protesters, the Metal Workers Union of Korea and Hyundai Motors Staff who are Downing Tools to Join the Protest and the Foreigners Protesting Against the Protest” will stage a protest.
Republic of protests. The above post seems funny. But unfortunately, they’re all actually real.
# 74,
2,000 years vs. 56… hummm… It’s not a hard choice for me.
#18, cmm and #63, rich1million, I wouldn’t call the Chinese students “protesters” (what were they protesting?) anymore than I would call a ticker-tape parade for the NY Giants a protest.
The only real difference being that Americans do it in their own country.
Boston
If anyone cares for my advice, I would suggest the organisers try to stick to the line of “there are more important things to protest than beef” and attempt to avoid sliding over into “you guys are jackasses for thinking US beef is dangerous.”
“If anyone cares for my advice, I would suggest the organisers try to stick to the line of “there are more important things to protest than beef” and attempt to avoid sliding over into “you guys are jackasses for thinking US beef is dangerous.”…”
F that. Tell the damn truth. Enough coddling. The country I once loved is being eaten by a cancer and you don’t treat it by ignoring it.
I saw it as clear as day returning after 20 years. The mental patients in the assylum didn’t know any better because this younger generation has never seen life outside.
I’ve now given up on this place. I am proud of the struggles of the common people who built the county but am sick to death of the cankers who contol the rotten culture today. Oh…sorry, I’m being negative. On second thought let’s try to sweet talk the cancer out.
@78 After posting I realized “protesters” wasn’t the best word, but I couldn’t really figure out what the best word was… “defenders?” They showed up to support AND protect (sometimes violently) the torch and their countries “pride” or whatever. Whatever you call that, that’s what I meant. They got away with violent assembly.
I’d go but I don’t have any health insurance.
The Texas Bar would put you in close enough proximity to be found guilty. The had police buses there one night blocking traffic up and down the stream. I just walked down and up the stairs of the building to get further up stream.
#43
How/Where is that “warning.” Actually, who cares what the U.S. Embassy says? They advertise for swell fella Carr as someone to defend you in labor law matters when he only works for employers. Where is that asterisk?
Hmmm..the day of this protest is on July 5, day after the 4th of July holiday..wait, it is actually 4th of July in the states. Is this how Americans celebrate their national holiday by protesting in their host country they are in?..George Bush like arrogant 싸가지 lecturing Korean people in Korea!! Is this what you want to hear?
Unless westerners got themselves seriously hurt where such images are brocasted live in CNN or FOX as mentioned above..foreigner will be the only group to lose in this protest.
Namuamitaba
Now, I think this protest is poorly thought out, to say the least, but since you brought it up…
http://news.chosun.com/site/da.....00060.html
http://www.ytn.co.kr/_ln/0104_200806101303016152
Hey, maybe US expats in third countries can protest, too!
http://www.ohmynews.com/NWS_We.....0000923849
Mr. Marmot,
Clearly you are not understanding their situation.
Is it just me or is there perhaps just a twinge of hypocrisy in demonstrating to protest demonstrations?
I am not too sure what the “true” purpose us behind of all this. Most certainly it will lead to a non-benificial and potentially violent confrontation, let’s not disguise it as anything else. In this guy’s opinion it is serving no other purpose that to disrespectfully thumb noses at Korea.
If one is truely concerned with the plight of those suffering in the north there are better ways of helping, here is a suggestion:
http://www.helpinghandskorea.org/
“Is it just me or is there perhaps just a twinge of hypocrisy in demonstrating to protest demonstrations?”
I think it’s more a twinge of the Judean People’s Front…. I mean the People’s Front of Judea.
#86 Once again, I can’t speak on the other groups involed in the demo, but you can get an idea of LiNK’s “true” purpose here: http://www.linkglobal.org/link-history.html
An example of LiNK’s work in China: http://freekorea.us/2007/08/20.....are-freed/
They have a multi-tiered approach to NK human rights, including advocay and directly assiting NK refugees.
BTW and in case you were wondering; I am not a member of LiNK, just a groupie.
Why is the NK Human Rights protest getting hijacked by pro-beef shit? I mean talk about mixed messages. I’d go out for the NK issue, but not for beef.
Yeah, the beef thing was stupid but I don’t want to protest about it. If Koreans don’t want to eat it, fine.
The NK issue, however, is something I could get behind. I won’t be going now through cuz everything has been conflated.
Anton: “Is it just me or is there perhaps just a twinge of hypocrisy in demonstrating to protest demonstrations?”
Funny, I thought it was foreigners showing sensitivity for Korean protest culture. After all, they’re always being reminded that “when in Korea do as Koreans do.”
It would seem to me that we should protest the hypocricy in protesting the protest against protesting.
#89:
To me, the two issues (lack of food in NK, and Beef in SK) are linked.
The resumption of beef imports will have the effect of lowering food prices, not just for beef, but also for other things that people can substitute for beef (fish, pork, etc.)
Even though the two economies (NK and SK) are very separate, the two issues of the anti-demo demo (beef and famine) are complimentary.
If people are aware of the famine in the North, hopefully, they will want to send aid (or encourage 2mb to do so), in the form of food.
If food prices are lower, then SK will be able to send more aid.
This will be great! More unqualified, yuppy, self-important English teachers arrested and deported from Korea.
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[...] this and potentially getting my head turned into hamburger while covering the demo on Saturday, this will be busy [...]
[...] this and potentially getting my head turned into hamburger while covering the demo on Saturday, this will be busy [...]
[...] this and potentially getting my head turned into hamburger while covering the demo on Saturday, this will be busy [...]
[...] but at the same time, what’s good for the goose… [...]
[...] He noted that the students not only wished to oppose the radical demonstrations, but also ask the candle crowd to pay attention to North Korean human rights. [Marmot’s Hole] [...]
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