Fire away.
Open Thread #55
This entry was written by Robert Koehler, posted on June 28, 2008 at 10:48 am, filed under Open Thread. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.
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173 Comments
I hope that the ethnic/race bashing here stops. One should be able to discuss/debate things political, social, or cultural without resorting to that kind of crap.
I hope pawi’s recent silence represents a vacation or other activities and not any troubles with the Big Sur and other Bay Area wildfires I’ve been hearing about.
hello!
http://4ero.net/photos/y/yua-aida/zq88/4ero003.jpg
Nice, hardyandtiny. And to think I’m on some other thread talking about exchange rates. You win.
There’s been a bit of talk recently about Korea using the work ‘foreigner’ and how many foreign nationals and tourists find this word quaint and exclusive at best, rude and derogatory at worst.
How do you find the word 외국인 (foreigner)? Do you find it discriminatory? What word would you like to see it replaced with?
국제인 / 국제 사람 - International person
세계인 / 세계 사람 - Global person
양인 / 양 사람 - Foreign person
동양(인/사람) / 서양(인/사람) - Easterner / Westerner
인간 - Human
{insert country}게 한국인 - {Insert country}-Korean (for citizens/permanent residents of non-Korean ethnicity)
Or, would you prefer if they stop using labels completely?
And before anyone steps in, I doubt think:
양놈
똥개
외국 씨발놈
코쟁이
외국 새끼
개새끼
외구(外寇) - foreign enemy/invader
or any other like-minded colourful terms are suitable replacements.
Robert Downey Jr does a reverse Michael Jackson in “Tropic Thunder”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
Some Japanese edumacators want the local Koreans to know that Korea WASN’T a Japanese colony, after all. Glad we could clear *that* misunderstanding up.
“The head of the Shimonoseki city education board in Yamaguchi Prefecture has told officials of a Korean school that Japan’s 1910-1945 colonial rule of the Korean Peninsula ‘‘contradicts a historical fact,’’ the education board and the Korean school officials said Friday.”
http://www.japantoday.com/cate.....board-head
#3, I vote for “foreigner” for 외국인 and “alien” for 외계인. I would rather be called a foreigner than an alien since “foreigner” sounds more exotic.
“Global person,” “International person”? Don’t people have more important things to worry about?
#5, I think “Freakin’ Non-*$&%^-Korean” would sum things up properly. I’m not sure how to spell all of that in Hangul, however
(^_^)
It’s a rainy day and I’ve got a lot of time on my hands. I’ve been thinking about the limitations of Hangeul when it comes to words and sounds not naturally occurring in Korean. I started thinking about Katakana, Japan’s alphabet used primarily for non-Japanese words. I then thought about all the Korean characters, which were once part of Hangeul but have since been eliminated. There’s scores of them in all kinds of shapes and combinations on the scrap heap.
Why doesn’t Korea reinstate some of these obsolete Hangeul characters and use them for foreign sounds and when transcribing foreign words? Believe or not, there exists now obsolete Hangeul characters for sounds such as ‘v’ and ‘w’. Why doesn’t Korea bring some of these obsolete Hangeul off the bench and use them for words and sounds of foreign origin? It would have the advantage of introducing Koreans to these sounds are an earlier date and help their pronunciation of non-Korean words, bringing a pronunciation close to the ‘true’ pronunciation of the non-Korean word.
Here are some examples:
The word city comes out as shitty in Korean as the rule with Korean is that a sh sound always proceeds a ‘i (ee)’ vowel. How about using the unused ᄼ (s) character for situations as above using non-Korean words such as city.
Here are a couple of characters which used to be used for sounds of non-Korean origin: ㅱ (w), ㅿ (z) and ㆅ (x) – but I personally prefer using ᄽ for (x).
Some other characters that could be used for foreign sounds: ᅅ (soft ‘th’ sound as in ‘thin’), ᅆ (hard ‘th’ sound as in ‘thick’), ᄙ (‘English-sounding’ r as in ‘rooster’), ㅬ (‘English-sounding’ l as in ‘love’), ㅸ (English-sounding’ b as in ‘boy’), ㅹ (v), ᄤ (f).
ㆍ – could be placed below words of foreign origin which end with consonant sounds, which are currently limited by Hangeul’s need for a vowel to follow the consonant as in ‘mart’ 마트 which comes out as ‘marteu’. Instead, have the dot below the final ㅌ so the word is pronounced ‘mart’, similar to in English.
El Canguro, as I heard the other day,
Question: What’s the politically correct term for anally retentive.
Answer: Political correctness.
#11
Keep up the good work. King Sejong will be very proud of you.
#12 - lol
I tried to link to Wikipedia’s page of Hangeul Jamo - both new and used - but I couldn’t get the link to work.
And, I should have used ‘this’ instead of ‘thick’ as an example of a ‘hard’ th sound.
ElCanguro @ #5,
외국인 is not offensive to me.
국제인 is an actual “internationalist”, not an international person, and 국제 사람 doesn’t really sound like a valid construction.
세계인 is one of those world citizen types, so it wouldn’t fit if you were not. Again, 세계 사람 doesn’t make sense to me.
Is 양인 even a valid word? Never heard it before, and it doesn’t really make sense in hanja.
서양인 I am fine with.
I want to be treated like an 인간 but am not fond of being refered to as the 인간 lol.
If there are people out there that think 외국인 is a racially prejudicial term, then there is no escaping it in Korea.
ElCanguro (#11),
Yes, I agree. I think Korea should add more sounds to their language by using some of the old symbols. It may pay off in the long run.
#15
양인in hanja 洋人 is how westerners are refered in old days at the turn of century..
외국인 is still better than 백인,흑인.
Siddhartha @ #15,
Ocean people? Interesting.
What’s wrong with 외국인(foreigner/外国人)?
This is 10000 times offensive!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=d_D_d3lKxE8
If someone ask me if I am a Korean, I would scream NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.
#18:
Did you read #1?
#17:
It’s kind of the same with (Sino-)Japanese. Hence 洋食, 洋服, 洋館, 洋風, etc. I think the 西is abbreviated. But strangely, I’ve never heard of 洋人.
#18
LOL..I know why these Taiwanese fans reacted like that because of rumor last year that Yankee pitcher Wang has Korean ancestor. Totally fabricated story but Taiwaneses were pissed off anyway..
Why is KFC in Korea so bad?
“Bad” is a subjective term. KFC is a franchised restaurant (I think Doosan still owns the Korea franchise), but its menu is not 100% identical around the world. The local KFC menu is adapted to suit Korean palates, while I imagine the KFC Famous Bowls are unique to America.
El Canguro: re-adding the old hangul characters is an interesting notion, however they might have been dropped in the first place because of the linguitic principle of “economy of speech” by which speakers in a homogeneous society such as Korea can take for granted that everyone understands the same communication with the omissions.
I can’t imagine Koreans voluntarily adding “L” and “R” characters to the language….
Aieeesh….”linguistic” principle
The side of the comment window is cut off in my browser…that’s my excuse and I’m sticking with it.
Actually that’s {country}*계*.
#6 Just keep it as 외국인. Much simpler and easier for everyone. Let’s face it, if you’re not from around these parts originally, then the term 외국인 is perfect. Is Korea going the way of the US with its PCness??? I look at it this way, I’m a 외국인 to Koreans until I open my mouth and engage them in conversation. After that, I’m no longer considered 외국. Simple enough. As far as the old linguistic characters… It could happen and I see great benefits, but look at how Korean students pronounce the same letters in English. A “v” is a “bwee” et al.
I liked it best when I had to queue at the ‘Alien’ sign at Kimpo Airport. And I recall my first ID (a booklet) also had ‘Alien’ on it.
Nevertheless, it’s the sentiment rather than the words that matter.
KFC is bad as in almost every branch seems to be poorly managed. There seems to be little quality control with the preparation and standing time for the burgers in particular.
My problem is not with the taste of the items on the menu. My problem is with the staff who seem to turn over every few weeks and the mechanical way in which customers are served. KFC at 서울대입구역 is particularly terrible.
It seems there are good KFC’s and bad KFC’s depending on which store you visit. However, more often than not the fries are cold, the cola is flat and the burgers are cold have a green tomato, tiny bit of soggy lettuce and taste like shit.
On the other hand. I enjoy the fires and quality of Popeyes. It’s shame tho coz it sucks when I know not to go anywhere near that Zinger I crave.
I’d be happy to be called 외국인 in Korea, if only Koreans would stop referring to me a 외국인 in the U.S.
I’m not holding my breath.
At least you have a KFC, Ryan. In my town here in Korea, there are no KFCs, Burger Kings, or Popeyes, and there is only one small McDonalds.
Imagine a city without Buger King, KFC, or Starbucks, but “dirt duck” (황토오리) restaurants every fifty feet. It’s a madhouse here.
I miss Incheon, which was a relatively large city with good public transportation and most of the comforts of home. Also, Incheon buses went straight, instead of zigzaging down every other block like the buses do where I am now.
Damn Dokdo!!! Damn! Damn! Damn!
no wonder you want a hamster
Perceptions and Realities of Globalization
by Jacob Funk Kirkegaard, Peterson Institute
Berlin, April 28, 2008.
May 16, 2008
© Peterson Institute for International Economics
The reality of “globalization” is that it is a continuous economic process driven both by fundamental economic policy changes by individual governments and by technological innovation… The fact that in the global IT services industry, for instance, Indian multinational companies such as TCS or Infosys are now — less than ten years after they first ventured outside India on any scale — competing head-on globally against established US and European multinational companies like IBM or SAP for high value-added service contracts is testament to the novelty, speed, and broad scope of today’s globalization.
However, the perception of “globalization” among the European public and certainly as expressed by many voters in America’s current election cycle is very different. Among large groups of the traditional middle classes on both sides of the Atlantic, “globalization” is rather perceived as a transfer of existing jobs, know-how, and wealth from developed countries to the new and rapidly growing economies, especially China and India. In other words, not an integrative process, which new participants join, but rather a zero-sum type process of transferring “opportunities for an economically secure life” from one part of the world to another.
In recent years numerous public polls have documented how public support for free trade has plummeted, especially in the United States… increasingly elections are won on outright “antiglobalization” platforms. This is a big change from the 1990s.
…Exponents of free trade and globalization, therefore, face a perennial political challenge of having to “sell a case” for a process of economic change that unambiguously enhances wealth and welfare in the aggregate, but one in which individual voter gains are small and very widely distributed, while potential losses are large and heavily concentrated.
Nowhere is this more pertinent than when the pros and cons of globalization are evaluated exclusively through the lenses of “jobs”; globalization is great if it creates jobs, and utterly unacceptable if it destroys them.
While certainly recurrent in Europe, too, this view is expressed most strongly during elections in the United States. And that is no coincidence. The relatively less comprehensive and largely employment-based social safety net in America — where employees’ pensions and especially healthcare coverage are dependent on having a job—makes this inevitable. The loss of a job in the United States can often have both quick and catastrophic consequences for individuals. Americans out of a job might suddenly find themselves without access to required medical treatments. Given Europe’s universal and overwhelmingly government administered healthcare systems, this type of destructive individual outcome potentially directly linked to globalization simply does not occur. Europe’s universal healthcare systems thus provide a crucial protection for individuals against some of the worst fallouts from globalization — a very personal safety net that remains missing in the United States….
Dare I ask: “Where’s the beef?”
I’m curious… The shipment that’s been killing time in cold storage should be out of inspection and into stores soon. But does anyone have any idea where it will be sold? The last time the big department stores tried peddling it, they were covered in excrement. Will the beef only go to small butcher shops? Will Costco push aside aussie beef to clear space for a proper amuhracan product? And, will the excrement fly again to impede purchases?
It’s common nowdays to see a Korean girl walking arm in arm with her whitey boyfriend. Usually that Korean girl would be pretty, sophiscated, well dressed, and wearing a miniskirt. On the other hand the white guy would be well…fat, balding, dressed like a bum, and in some cases look like he hasn’t had a shower for a week.
Talking to some of my Korean friends, it seems that they are somewhat puzzled that the above mentioned Korean girl would reject bad looking unkempt Korean guys but look the other way when it came to white guys.
Which begs the question. Is the pretty Korean girl’s willingness to look the other way because hanging around with a white guy will;
a) enable her to learn English
b) endow her with some sort of a lofty status among the girl crowd
c) give her unimaginable excitement thanks to the big stick?
Either way it looks like that some of those guys are being used by their Korean girlfriends.
You and your friends should keep pondering that one for awhile, andy. It gives you something to do.
#33 - “Either way it looks like that some of those guys are being used by their Korean girlfriends.”
Wow, those poor guys. Used, treated like meat, even, by hot sexy women. The cruelty in this world never ends.
Andy (#33),
I noticed you left out “d” in your list:
d) get the great sex that only white guys know how to give
My favorite part of #33 was ‘Usually that Korean girl would be pretty, sophiscated, well dressed, and wearing a miniskirt’. Frankly, if you’re looking at other people walking by long enough to determine that they’re not merely well-dressed, but well-dressed and sophisticated, then you’re not really looking so much as staring.
“swlee” is back under a new moniker.
Funny thing, Robert, I missed the “kyopo bashing” that must’ve preceded it…
I don’t know what the heck a “gomigomi” is, and it blows my mind that there are six other gomigomis who ALSO have a youtube account, but Gomigomi7 has an amazing collection of old Korean TV commercials that he/she’s uploaded to youtube.
Worth a gander.
http://www.youtube.com/user/gomigomi7
enjoy!
Eh? Where?
@#39
Cool find!
This is an absolutely must see video:
KOREAN HISTORY CHANNEL
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptyzc4BQliY
Who says kyopos don’t have a sense of humor?
The actors are pawi & swlee.
swlee is a troll, a third-rate one at that who can’t even provoke people’s thoughts. At least pawi has some intelligence. Who cares what name swlee uses. 똥 spelled as ddong still smells like poop.
41: Thanks roboseyo, you gave my gf some nostalgia… and I got to see some Korean icons before they were famous (esp. Lee Young Ae).
KFC in Australia is Delish! (better at stand alone stores rather than food courts).
Yeah, that one 서울대역 was bad..I once forgot how bad it was and went there again…no customers burger rack full…gee how long have they been sitting ther with lettuce and tomato making the chicken all soggy.
Lotteria takes the award for most amount of uneaten burgers piled up in the warmer for more thna an hour. I normally avoid it, but was anount to jump on a long bus ride and hadn’t eaten…oh it was shite.
gbevers…blessing in disguise there are no fast food traps in your town. You’ll appreciate good country korean food and enjoy your trips home all the more.
#43
LMAO watching all of them..you should read the comments made by Koreans.. These guys hang around in LA K-town way too much!!
#20
You won’t hear Korean say it..however it is still referenced in Chinese literatures. Many Chinese still say it.
Robert K., could you explain what the “Search_____” box on your site searches for? I’ve typed in everything, commentators names, sentences from comments I liked, post titles, …. freaking nothing comes up.
What I want to do is search by commentator and by keyword. Is it possible?
Andy and his puzzled friends reminded me of these classic clips: ‘Yellow Fever’ and the ‘Yellow Fever’ bloopers reel. Enjoy, and don’t think too much about other people.
A poster at Dave’s ESL scanned an old article from National Geographic about Korea from 1919. It’s a cool read.
* When he talks about the subdirectory called /large/, it is from scans 24 through 48
The link is here.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/kore.....p?t=127164
Johnson - sorry if this is obvious: go to Google’s homepage, click on ‘Advanced Search’. Put in the commenter’s name and keywords, and in the bottom box ‘Search within site or domain’, enter rjkoehler.com.
That’s how I got the info for this comment:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....ent-149630
@44 pawi intelligent? 똥.
Fark discovers Korea’s Krazy Kow Karnival:
http://forums.fark.com/cgi/far.....nk=3702273
My friends had a good laugh at my `Alien Registration Card` last week.
Oh, and the correct term is `Foreign Resident`, dammit.
Japanese dinosaur eat Korean dinosaur!
But never say sorry!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptyzc4BQliY
Good Morning!
http://4ero.net/photos/y/yua-aida/zq88/4ero006.jpg
Holy crap! Spain won against Germany!
http://msn.foxsports.com/socce.....2?MSNHPHMA
Netherlands, Russia, Spain… Lol I won’t be bored in 2010.
I’ll feel a lot better about the world when the most popular sport is no longer a sport where the players can’t even use their hands.
@54 I heard those guys are Vietnamese.
“It happen 1,000,000 year ago. I still remember!!” LOL
robert, were you at school food on saturday? i saw a white guy in hanbok and immediately thought you.
I’m trying to decide between the following games for Wii:
Super Smash Bros.
Mario Galaxy
MarioKart
Anybody have any input?
My friend bought the Super Smash Bros for Wii a few weeks ago.
…
I still have not seen him. It is the devil’s video game. It will suck your soul out and insert it into the TV screen…
… Yeah, so I’d recommend Super Smash Bros.
The 1919 National Geographic article in #50 has been made into a pdf. It’s really, really funny.
http://www.koreanarchery.org/NatlGeo1919.pdf
@61 Thanks. That’s what I’m looking for.
Thanks for that link, Linked.
For many years wandering gangs of Chinese and Korean bandits have ranged along the forest borders, keeping the natives in terror and exacting tribute from every caravan which passed through the territory under their control. If the tribute was not paid destruction was certain. The Japanese have now pretty well cleared the country of these marauders; but though few remain the fear of them, inbred in the peace-loving Koreans, will live for years to come.
It appears there were also benefits to Japanese rule.
@58 but the one dude’s (Park, Kyu) Korean is pretty good for a viet… could be “but vietnam people so dirty asian!” “Korea gooood!”
…when are you leaving, Gerry?
Concerning #66: Do you mean my leaving on a crusade in support of pet hamsters?
A few months ago, someone from Korea’s Northeast Asia History Foundation called one of the professors at my university and asked if I was working here. The professor stopped me in hall and asked if it was true that I had written in support of Japan’s historical claim to Dokdo. I said that I had.
The professors at my current university are extremely nice, especially the guy who asked me about Dokdo, but the professors at my old university were nice, too, so I do not know what will happen at the end of my contract period.
Apparently, my current school had not heard of my Dokdo past, and since the question was not asked at my job interview, I did not mention it, either. If my school does not want to rehire me at the end of the year, I will probably leave Korea.
You never learn, huh gbevers?
Viva España!!!!
`It appears there were also benefits to Japanese rule.`
Not exactly benefits as the purpose was to falicitate things for the Japanese government, not improve the quality of life of the Korean public.
Awe-inspiring
Gerry, why don’t you consider visiting Japan and trying your hand at teaching there? It is a good chance to learn Japanese, and you will find many similarities to Korean.
Correlation does not equal causation.
That being said, does anyone else find it interesting that:
* the won dropped like crazy in the immediate aftermath of the PD Diary broadcast: 1USD = 1003.70 KRW on April 29, the day of the broadcast, dropping to a 2008 low of 1049.50 just over a week later on May 8)?
* the won recovered appreciably at the end of May and beginning of June (reaching a high of 1 USD = 1016.50 KRW on June 3), right around the time the agriculture minister announced that his ministry planned to publish the beef import regulations in the government register despite the protests?
* the won tanked again as it became clear that the government would not be able to carry out its plan and would have to renegotiate the beef deal (drop to 1043.70 on June 13)?
* after a brief respite (reaching a high of 1021.50 on June 17), the won has continued its dive as it has become clear that not even a renegotiated beef deal giving Korea everything it asked for would satisfy the protesters?
All data from Google Finance; I highly suggest that everyone check out the graph and nota bene the strength of the won since Cows Gone Wild! got started.
Ut videam, that’s an excellent point. And then there was this headline today: Foreigners Flee Seoul Bourse as Clouds Gather.
Stupidity in L.A.
And Hancock Park is one of the nicer neighborhoods in Los Angeles…
@74:
Matt, one thing that is true of MANY (definitely not all) American English teachers in Korea is that they live there, enjoy some aspects of it, complain about it to EXCESS where they bitch up and down about everything Korean (including its history), go back to the US or to another country (where they can teach ESL), rave about the new country where they are teaching, and then ALWAYS coming back to Korea because they miss it so much. It’s a pattern I have seen often among many English teachers. Obviously there is something about Korea that draws them back.
I think everyone on this blog pretty much knows gbevers is passed the point of no return and cannot leave Korea….and if he does, he will have to be back to it within a few months. Yep, the very place (and people) he complains and negatively generalizes the most about…is the only place he can now live. That’s why over the years I have advised him to take it easy and not get so worked up about this and that in Korea’s history (and it wouldn’t be so bad if what he believed was even true) and just be more laidback and chill and enjoy Korea. Instead, like many ESL teachers (again, not all), he has to go on and on with generalizing words about the whole people like, “The problem with Koreans is that they are liars” or “Koreans need to know the truth of their history that they were allies of Japan” or “Koreans fought against the US in WWII.” It’s so obvious he is lashing out at Koreans and their history because of some perceived snub he got over the years in Korea and that this is the only way he can get back at them (which actually only backfires on him). I mean, if the stuff he said about Korea was even TRUE…..WHY SAY IT REPEATEDLY IN KOREA???? You’re not gonna win friends that way and are SURE to make enemies….no matter WHAT country you do this in. If I were to go to a country like Denmark and talk about how the Danes fought against the US on the side of Germany in WWII or that the Danes were liars or that Danes need to open their eyes and know the truth about how screwed up Danes are…..#1 would this help the Danes? and #2 would this help me as I live in Denmark?? The answer to both is no. So why would I do it? Gbevers, at least be like Matt or Ponta who do their anti-Korea blogging in another country.
But make no mistake about it….gbevers CANNOT leave Korea. I’ve met a few ESL teachers like him who complained up and down about everything in Korea….and they went on to Japan or to Europe, where they said life was better. But without exception, they DID return to Korea to live….permanently. Korea was too much a part of them. Seems nothing would satisfy them. Very sad. They couldn’t live with Korea but couldn’t live without it. For gbevers it’s that much worse since he’s spent DECADES in the Land of the Morning Calm.
PS I see through my tracer that someone from Australia looked at my blog today at an entry where I first linked to a certain anti-Korea site. Interesting.
Video of a man in downtown Seoul carrying a very big knife and threatening to kill President Lee.
http://www.tagstory.com/video/.....V000211204
JK, I see you are still full of crap.
Gbevers, say what you will. I only wish you the best in Korea, your home now and forever. Enjoy it. I am sure there are tons of people who would want to be in your shoes now. It’s a good place.
JK, I don’t know about any of that.
I just think Japan would be a good change of scene, and people there don’t care about your private activities.
#80
Danes don’t post derogatory comments about Germany all over the net & out of context.
“…and people there don’t care about your private activities…”
Or so you think, Matt.
*Warning: Generalization impending*
Koreans (relative to Japanese) are noted for wearing their emotions on their sleeve and telling you what they think of you or your country. Many Japanese (sorry, but I am generalizing again), on the other hand, won’t tell you what they are thinking of you and your country and will smile to your face (especially if you’re a Westerner). And I don’t blame them. After all, they lost to the US (and the rest of the West even if those other countries played a negligent role in the fight against Japanese expansionism in WWII), so I understand why they kiss up to Westerners they way they do.
But gbevers would have to leave his home of several decades and adapt to another country, culture and language….only to find that he likes Korea more. That’s the pattern I have seen among Western people who complained about Korea, left it, then returned.
Since the following aside was brought up (#78 JK)…
“If I were to go to a country like Denmark and talk about how the Danes fought against the US on the side of Germany in WWII or that the Danes were liars or that Danes need to open their eyes and know the truth about how screwed up Danes are…..#1 would this help the Danes? and #2 would this help me as I live in Denmark?? The answer to both is no.”
The Danes (Danes) fought against the USSR in Frikorps Danmark and SS Nordland. The ones who did, around 10,000, were volunteers. The Danish Government did sign the Anti-Comitern Pact but there were no Danish army units involved fighting the USSR and Denmark did not declare war on the USSR (or the US). I don’t know of any Danish volunteers to fight the US. I’m sure there were some individuals, especially from Schleswig-Holstein. If you have information I’d be interested to hear.
Many Danes lie, although I’m struggling to think of an example that would particularly upset expats. I do think the Danes could do with a bit of eye-opening. With respect to the war people have been trying for years but most people aren’t interested (you could start, for example, with Sandi Toksvig’s rather rose-tinted version in Hitler’s Canary.) As for pointing out how screwed up the Danes are I’m all in favour. The Danes have become particularly adept recently at pointing out how screwed up others are, it would be good to see it going both ways.
So I think #1, it would help the Danes, especially if they listened, and #2, you’d probably find a number of people who were sympathetic if you tried, but many would just dismiss you as an apologist for extremism.
BTW, the above is in no way intended to reflect any opinion about gbevers and Korea.
“Many Japanese (sorry, but I am generalizing again), on the other hand, won’t tell you what they are thinking of you and your country and will smile to your face (especially if you’re a Westerner).”
It’s interesting…the only people from whom I have heard this stereotyping have been largely for the most part Korean. No Japanese person with whom I have spoken said that their culture values chicanery and deception. Whenever I mention this fact to Koreans, they always say, “No, don’t listen to Japanese. We know better about Japan than the Japanese themselves.”
How interesting (or arrogant) that Koreans claim to be more of an expert on another country’s culture than that country’s people themselves. I guess the next thing you know, Koreans will be saying they know more about America than Americans themselves…especially US Beef and how Americans always eat hamburgers or bread with every meal. Oops..what am I talking about? They already are claiming to be experts of our culture! Well, I guess if a Korean says it, it must be 100% accurate.
In any case, I think that Koreans may be confusing the entire “not wearing your emotions on your sleeve” with the western and first world concept of acting “mature” or having “tact”. I guess in Korea, crying and screaming whenever one doesn’t get one’s way…or shouting angrily and screaming in public when one is angered is considered normal and admirable. Unfortunately, in western and I guess in Japanese society too, displaying emotion without consideration of others is behavior reserved for children under the age of 5 years. We learn that a big part of acting as a mature adult is having tact and learning to control one’s emotional outbursts.
I guess Korean culture finds the act of middle age men screaming and shouting like lunatics whenever someone walks in front of them without bowing to be noble.
I wouldn’t pick on the Danes. The French, now, they actually fought U.S. and British forces in North Africa, thus giving them the singular distinction of having surrendered to both sides in WWII.
To HSPark in #85:
“It’s interesting…the only people from whom I have heard this stereotyping have been largely for the most part Korean.”
Really? I have heard this from many an American (and that means white and black and not just Americans of Korean descent like myself) who have had interaction with the Japanese.
“No Japanese person with whom I have spoken said that their culture values chicanery and deception.”
I never used the words chicanery or deception. Hm. Talk about spin on your part.
“Whenever I mention this fact to Koreans, they always say, ‘No, don’t listen to Japanese. We know better about Japan than the Japanese themselves.’
But as I have pointed out, I am an American, and I know many other Americans (both white and black) who at one point lived in Japan who have said the same thing. Okay, you may want to call me “Korean” because ethnically I am….but surely you won’t count my white and black American friends as Korean!
“How interesting (or arrogant) that Koreans claim to be more of an expert on another country’s culture than that country’s people themselves.”
Is this any more arrogant than a white expat or a Japanese claiming to be more an expert of Korea and Korea’s history than the country’s people themselves? I don’t think so.
“I guess the next thing you know, Koreans will be saying they know more about America than Americans themselves…especially US Beef and how Americans always eat hamburgers or bread with every meal. Oops..what am I talking about? They already are claiming to be experts of our culture! Well, I guess if a Korean says it, it must be 100% accurate.”
Not sure what Koreans in Korea has to do with what I just wrote. After all, I am an American, born and raised. So do I have the right to make my own assessment of Korean and Japanese culture based on my own interactions with Korean and Japanese people? Can I express my opinions? Matt (a guy of European descent) did about Korean culture. Can I not about the Japanese (even if I am of Korean descent)? PRETTY PLEASE????
“In any case, I think that Koreans may be confusing the entire ‘not wearing your emotions on your sleeve’ with the western and first world concept of acting ‘mature’ or having ‘tact’. I guess in Korea, crying and screaming whenever one doesn’t get one’s way…or shouting angrily and screaming in public when one is angered is considered normal and admirable. Unfortunately, in western and I guess in Japanese society too, displaying emotion without consideration of others is behavior reserved for children under the age of 5 years. We learn that a big part of acting as a mature adult is having tact and learning to control one’s emotional outbursts.”
Hm, so I suppose you count the Scotts and Irish as “crying and screaming whenever one doesn’t get one’s way or shouting angrily and screaming” while the poker-faced English are “mature” or having “tact”, eh? Actually by English standards, many Americans are viewed and categorized in the same way you just did the Koreans, namely “crying and screaming whenever one doesn’t get one’s way.” I simply call it cultural relativism. I personally would rather deal with a person who will tell me how it is to my face (so I can give him back just as good) rather than have experiences like I did in Japan when a Japanese was too scared to say “no” to my polite request to show me something on a tour….only to found out that person was not able to do so. I said as politely as I could, “You could have just said no PRIOR to us coming all this way. We wouldn’t have come here if you had said we couldn’t see that particular site because that was the reason we agreed to come to this particular city.” You may call his weak behavior “mature” or “having tact”, but by American standards, that kind of behavior was just plain wrong. But…OH MY! Am I, an American (of Korean descent at that) allowed to say that???? The horror or me making an assessment of Japanese culture!
Wow…talk about getting het up.
Say, Gerry, did that Japanese artist ever do any more comics about your situation? Are the originals still available online?
JK: “Is this any more arrogant than a white expat or a Japanese claiming to be more an expert of Korea and Korea’s history than the country’s people themselves? I don’t think so.”
First, I would advise you to drop the word “white” from your arguments. Gratuitous discrimination along racial lines only serves to weaken your objectivity and therefore your argument.
Second, with regard to the above-stated claim, I fail to see the line of reasoning. Are you asserting that nationality determines expertise? Are you equating expertise with arrogance in the event that a non-national commands greater expertise than the average national?
The self-sabatage apparent in these arguments is that they attempt to argue from exclusivity, which effectively invalidates the argument you are putting forth.
Why is it that people like #87 who make rather harsh assessments of Japan and the Japanese here seem to be Americans, Australians, or Canadians of Korean descent? Correct me if I’m wrong.
# 90,
Go to a China centric site (I was moderator to one) and you’ll see the exact same thing from Chinese Americans, Canadians, Australians and Singaporeans.
@89:
“First, I would advise you to drop the word ‘white’ from your arguments. Gratuitous discrimination along racial lines only serves to weaken your objectivity and therefore your argument.
Fine. Let’s say “Westerners of European descent” as opposed to “white.” Happy?
“Second, with regard to the above-stated claim, I fail to see the line of reasoning.”
Well let me explain it slowly and methodically to you now.
Matt made his implied assertion about Koreans and Japanese in #81. I made a replyin #83 as to why I thought his assertions were incorrect. Then someone under the id KSPark commented in #85 that “Koreans” do this, and “Koreans” do that based on what I, an American, wrote. I then gave my reply that whereas blogs like this are populated with commenters who make generalizing remarks about Koreans (which aren’t necessarily wrong nor are they always right) that a person being KOREAN or of Korean descent should not be held against him when making a comment about Japanese, or any other, culture ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that people who make generalizing comments about Korean culture often are “Westerners of European descent” or are Japanese. How are the comments about Koreans, be they positive or negative, from a Japanese or a “Westerner of European descent” any better or worse than comments about the Japanese from an American (me) who happens to be of Korean descent? THAT was my point. I saw a hypocrisy in the comment by the person going under the id “HSPark.”
“Are you asserting that nationality determines expertise?”
Not at all. Once again, read HSPark’s remark and my rebuttal….and do so objectively please.
“Are you equating expertise with arrogance in the event that a non-national commands greater expertise than the average national?”
Not at all, once again. In fact I am saying that I have as much right as anyone else to make a comment on another culture that is not my own EVEN IF I HAPPEN TO BE OF KOREAN DESCENT. Why is my right to make a comment about another culture suspect because I happen to be of Korean descent? Since you seem to be sensitive to racial references, I would think you would support me on this. Read over HSPark’s remark that made a remark about “Koreans” in reply to my remark, which in turn was merely a reply to Matt’s remark which DID make a comparison of Koreans and Japanese. (BTW, I don’t believe Matt is of Korean descent yet no one questioned his right to make a comment about Koreans, even though he is usually wrong).
“The self-sabatage apparent in these arguments is that they attempt to argue from exclusivity, which effectively invalidates the argument you are putting forth.”
The word is “sabotage” I believe. If you would actually READ over all the comments and not do so selectively, you would see that I am NOT arguing from exclusivity at all. Hence my argument is not at all invalidated.
Anything else?
#91
Then there must be some sort of racial/ethnic prejudice that’s behind them. Except for Singapore, where it’s basically a Chinese state and was occupied by Japan during WWII.
“Why is it that people like #87 who make rather harsh assessments of Japan and the Japanese here seem to be Americans, Australians, or Canadians of Korean descent? Correct me if I’m wrong.”
Okay, you’re wrong. I’ve heard this from plenty of Americans of European and African descent as well.
Skookum,
You’d be suprised how western in mind-set a lot of Singaporeans are. It was just a lump of rock before it was a British colony after all.
The first fault in your quick analysis is that while is it true that Singapore was occupied by Imperial Japan, so was Manchuria and large parts of coastal China, all parts of today’s PRC. Japanese occupation of coastal, central and southern China was pretty brutal by most western and Chinese accounts. That’s one of the reasons why the Americans stopped selling oil and scap metal to Imperial Japan. Japanese soliders bayoneting unarmed civilians didn’t play well in movie news reels in the U.S.
My friend, who is of Manchurian heritage, is not enamored with the Japan of that era either as they evicted his grandfather from his land. I’m not too happy with the Japanese of that time period as well since my grandmother had scars from her encounter with Japanese police who were breaking up some type of patriotic protest.
Your belief that it may be some sort of racial/ethnic prejudice is oversimplistic. Nothing comes about from a vacuum.
#95
What do WWII conducts have to do with cultural/ethnic assessments of modern Japanese like the one JK is engaging now, or the claims of cultural suzerainty by the Koreans (and the Chinese) over the Japanese that I often see here? I think they’re misplacing their grief.
JK,
Hmm..you have your experiences, I have mine.
You say you have met plenty of black and western friends/associates who have repeated the same mantra that Koreans and Chinese have about Japanese people. I am willing to bet almost all of your “friends” are probably biased to Korea.
On the other hand, none of the black, white and western people I have met said anything remotely close to what you have repeated. Furthermore, I know tons of non-Asian people who have no previous bias to any country in Asia, and they have all said that they would much rather lose a wallet full of money on a train in Japan than lose a pack of cigarettes in Korea since in Korea, the chances of it coming back to you are zero. So what does that prove?
Thus, you know 50 white/black/hispanic people who agree with you. I know 50 white/black/hispanic people…who is right? This argument means nothing and your attempt to use your own personal experiences to somehow prove that the Korean-American view of Japan is more valid than an actual Japanese person’s view holds as much water as a sand sifter.
Sorry..but my experiences have shown that on internet sites or in general, the only people who bring up WWII era regarding their assessment of modern Japan are Korean or Chinese-Americans. I have yet to find a single white European-American or black person under the age of 70 to bring up WWII regarding their assessment of Japan. It really is sort of embarrassing though when we are out on business lunches with the engineers and managers visiting from our offices in Japan, and the only person out of our group of 20 who always brings up WWII in a pleasant discussion about the current sales of Sony Playstation or how the cherry blossoms are doing this year in Japan is that Korean-American dufus with a chip on his shoulder. To this day, I have never seen a single white, black, hispanic, or Arabic-descent person ever initiate such a tactless maneuver in front of others…only Korean-Americans.
On the other hand, I will agree with you somewhat regarding the testiness of Scotch-Irish people compared to their blander English counterparts. However, that is a weak example compared to Koreans because I found that the stereotype of Scots/Irish being more fiery than their English counterparts is more or less just that…a stereotype. Most Scotts and Irishmen with whom I have had the pleasure to converse have been quite on the mellow side. On the other hand, the temper-tantrum prone, yelling and screaming at the drop of hat behavior by Koreans seems almost impossible to notice even for a tourist within just one week stay of Korea.
The story you have about the tour guide in Japan is quite interesting, because I have a very similar experience in both Korea and Japan during my stay in those two countries.
I found out that in Japan, whenever I asked a taxi driver if he know how to get to a place with which he was not faimliar, he would basically flat out apologize and say “No, I am sorry, I cannot. It would be better if you ask at the station, etc.” I appreciated his honesty.
On the other hand, in Korea, regardless of whether or not they would actually know how to get to a certain place, Korean taxi drivers would always tell me, “No problem! Get in! I take you!”. Then, being the gullible foreign tourist that I am, I would spend the next hour in this taxi while the driver is driving around in circles calling his friend at the sauna or his brother in law at the room salon asking for directions meanwhile racking up a huge fare for me. This happened to me so many times, and on the last time, it pissed me off so much I flat out demanded why the driver told me he could take me somewhere of which he clearly did not know the whereabouts? His answer was not surprising…”I cannot afford to turn away a potential customer.”
Even at the expense of inconveniencing a customer? Please.
No… not WWII. Remember, Japanese imperial ambitions in China and Korean started way before 1939 or 1941. It’s really events that happened during the Showa and Taishō Emperors’ reign.
Any ways, assertions of cultural/ethnic suzerainty by Chinese and Korean netziens are often clumsy and poorly executed. However, using events from the misty past to make a present day point isn’t an exclusive Chinese or Korean thing. Japan justified their invasions and colonizations of Korea on the Nihon Shoki’s legendary account of Jingu’s invasions into southern Korea. Many Japanese nationalists still accept Jingu’s accounts as historical, despite the fact that most modern historians (both Japanese and non-Japanese) do not today.
Wangkon,
I agree with you. I am pretty sure that Hideki Tojo is not responsible for designing Pokemon or the latest hip clothing lines coming from Japan (A Bathing Ape, Youji Yamamoto, etc.). Nor do I think that any of the designers at Samsung are worshippers of Cho Seung Hui, whose influence would be more expected given how recent his claim to “fame” is.
Thus, there is no need to mention any of those bad seeds when talking about either country.
So far, however, I am really impressed and totally surprised that the Korean public has managed to keep the US Beef import fiasco separate from Nogunri, the Korean War, or Ohno (I guess that has finally been laid to rest? If so..congratulations Korean)
“Thus, there is no need to mention any of those bad seeds when talking about either country.”
Unless you are speaking from ignorance, there is no logical way you can compare Hideki Tojo to Cho Seung Hui. Tojo was in a position to dictate policy and government direction, Cho was most certainly not. Cho, since he was not in any position of power (thank goodness) was only responsible for his own actions whereas Tojo was responsible for the actions of his government, which is why he was hanged as a war criminal. I have no idea why he has been deified at Yasukuni…
HSPark, why do you post using a Korean name?
Anyhoo, JK probably has a point (although he stated it in reverse) about the different perceptions of Japanese by Americans on the one hand and Chinese and Koreans on the other: America beat Japan soundly, so can Americans can afford to have a gracious attitude toward Japanese (note how this changed a bit in the ’80s when many Americans felt threatened by Japan economically). In contrast, Chinese and Koreans have not experienced a decisive victory over Japan in centuries, although both are convinced they deserve one. This fuels their need to bad-mouth Japan and Japanese while glorifying themselves.
My point was not trying to ascertain whether or not a given icon of either country was in a position of power. My point was that it would be wrong to just pick either of those icons and ascribe either to be a representative icon of each’s nationality. In that respect, Cho Seung Hui is fair game. If that example does not fit well, Kim Jong Il could easily fill in for Cho.
HSPark (what an interesting ID),
With comments like your last paragraph in #99, I cannot help but feel that you come across as this smug, condescending, sniffing person with your nose in the air. The same with your comments to me, which I shall now address.
“Hmm..you have your experiences, I have mine.”
Indeed. And I’ll never forget mine, that’s for sure.
“You say you have met plenty of black and western friends/associates who have repeated the same mantra that Koreans and Chinese have about Japanese people. I am willing to bet almost all of your ‘friends’ are probably biased to Korea.”
First of all, no need to put quotes around the word “friend.” They were and are my friends. You are already questioning me that they were friends and that lives up to the image I have of you as this very smug, arrogant person. Why continue to foster that image? And btw, by “Western” I guess you mean white?<