Open Thread #55

I hope pawi’s recent silence represents a vacation or other activities and not any troubles with the Big Sur and other Bay Area wildfires I’ve been hearing about.

Some Japanese edumacators want the local Koreans to know that Korea WASN’T a Japanese colony, after all. Glad we could clear *that* misunderstanding up.

“The head of the Shimonoseki city education board in Yamaguchi Prefecture has told officials of a Korean school that Japan’s 1910-1945 colonial rule of the Korean Peninsula ‘‘contradicts a historical fact,’’ the education board and the Korean school officials said Friday.”

http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/japans-colonial-rule-of-korea-not-fact-says-city-education-board-head

#5, I think “Freakin’ Non-*$&%^-Korean” would sum things up properly. I’m not sure how to spell all of that in Hangul, however
(^_^)

El Canguro, as I heard the other day,

Question: What’s the politically correct term for anally retentive.
Answer: Political correctness.

ElCanguro (#11),

Yes, I agree. I think Korea should add more sounds to their language by using some of the old symbols. It may pay off in the long run.

Siddhartha @ #15,

Ocean people? Interesting.

#18:
Did you read #1?

#17:
It’s kind of the same with (Sino-)Japanese. Hence 洋食, 洋服, 洋館, 洋風, etc. I think the 西is abbreviated. But strangely, I’ve never heard of 洋人.

Why is KFC in Korea so bad?

El Canguro: re-adding the old hangul characters is an interesting notion, however they might have been dropped in the first place because of the linguitic principle of “economy of speech” by which speakers in a homogeneous society such as Korea can take for granted that everyone understands the same communication with the omissions.

I can’t imagine Koreans voluntarily adding “L” and “R” characters to the language….

There’s been a bit of talk recently about Korea using the work ‘foreigner’ and how many foreign nationals and tourists find this word quaint and exclusive at best, rude and derogatory at worst.

How do you find the word 외국인 (foreigner)? Do you find it discriminatory? What word would you like to see it replaced with?

I liked it best when I had to queue at the ‘Alien’ sign at Kimpo Airport. And I recall my first ID (a booklet) also had ‘Alien’ on it.

Nevertheless, it’s the sentiment rather than the words that matter.

I’d be happy to be called 외국인 in Korea, if only Koreans would stop referring to me a 외국인 in the U.S.

I’m not holding my breath.

Dare I ask: “Where’s the beef?”

I’m curious… The shipment that’s been killing time in cold storage should be out of inspection and into stores soon. But does anyone have any idea where it will be sold? The last time the big department stores tried peddling it, they were covered in excrement. Will the beef only go to small butcher shops? Will Costco push aside aussie beef to clear space for a proper amuhracan product? And, will the excrement fly again to impede purchases?

You and your friends should keep pondering that one for awhile, andy. It gives you something to do.

Andy (#33),

I noticed you left out “d” in your list:

d) get the great sex that only white guys know how to give

“swlee” is back under a new moniker.

Funny thing, Robert, I missed the “kyopo bashing” that must’ve preceded it…

“swlee” is back under a new moniker.

Eh? Where?

@#39
Cool find!

#43
LMAO watching all of them..you should read the comments made by Koreans.. These guys hang around in LA K-town way too much!!

Robert K., could you explain what the “Search_____” box on your site searches for? I’ve typed in everything, commentators names, sentences from comments I liked, post titles, …. freaking nothing comes up.

What I want to do is search by commentator and by keyword. Is it possible?

A poster at Dave’s ESL scanned an old article from National Geographic about Korea from 1919. It’s a cool read.

* When he talks about the subdirectory called /large/, it is from scans 24 through 48

The link is here.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=127164

@44 pawi intelligent? 똥.

My friends had a good laugh at my `­Alien Registration Card` last week.

Japanese dinosaur eat Korean dinosaur!
But never say sorry!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptyzc4BQliY

Holy crap! Spain won against Germany!

http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/8293962?MSNHPHMA

Netherlands, Russia, Spain… Lol I won’t be bored in 2010.

@54 I heard those guys are Vietnamese.

“It happen 1,000,000 year ago. I still remember!!” LOL

I’m trying to decide between the following games for Wii:

Super Smash Bros.
Mario Galaxy
MarioKart

Anybody have any input?

Thanks for that link, Linked.

For many years wandering gangs of Chinese and Korean bandits have ranged along the forest borders, keeping the natives in terror and exacting tribute from every caravan which passed through the territory under their control. If the tribute was not paid destruction was certain. The Japanese have now pretty well cleared the country of these marauders; but though few remain the fear of them, inbred in the peace-loving Koreans, will live for years to come.

It appears there were also benefits to Japanese rule.

You never learn, huh gbevers?

`It appears there were also benefits to Japanese rule.`

Not exactly benefits as the purpose was to falicitate things for the Japanese government, not improve the quality of life of the Korean public.

Gerry, why don’t you consider visiting Japan and trying your hand at teaching there? It is a good chance to learn Japanese, and you will find many similarities to Korean.

Ut videam, that’s an excellent point. And then there was this headline today: Foreigners Flee Seoul Bourse as Clouds Gather.

@74:

Matt, one thing that is true of MANY (definitely not all) American English teachers in Korea is that they live there, enjoy some aspects of it, complain about it to EXCESS where they bitch up and down about everything Korean (including its history), go back to the US or to another country (where they can teach ESL), rave about the new country where they are teaching, and then ALWAYS coming back to Korea because they miss it so much. It’s a pattern I have seen often among many English teachers. Obviously there is something about Korea that draws them back.

I think everyone on this blog pretty much knows gbevers is passed the point of no return and cannot leave Korea….and if he does, he will have to be back to it within a few months. Yep, the very place (and people) he complains and negatively generalizes the most about…is the only place he can now live. That’s why over the years I have advised him to take it easy and not get so worked up about this and that in Korea’s history (and it wouldn’t be so bad if what he believed was even true) and just be more laidback and chill and enjoy Korea. Instead, like many ESL teachers (again, not all), he has to go on and on with generalizing words about the whole people like, “The problem with Koreans is that they are liars” or “Koreans need to know the truth of their history that they were allies of Japan” or “Koreans fought against the US in WWII.” It’s so obvious he is lashing out at Koreans and their history because of some perceived snub he got over the years in Korea and that this is the only way he can get back at them (which actually only backfires on him). I mean, if the stuff he said about Korea was even TRUE…..WHY SAY IT REPEATEDLY IN KOREA???? You’re not gonna win friends that way and are SURE to make enemies….no matter WHAT country you do this in. If I were to go to a country like Denmark and talk about how the Danes fought against the US on the side of Germany in WWII or that the Danes were liars or that Danes need to open their eyes and know the truth about how screwed up Danes are…..#1 would this help the Danes? and #2 would this help me as I live in Denmark?? The answer to both is no. So why would I do it? Gbevers, at least be like Matt or Ponta who do their anti-Korea blogging in another country.

But make no mistake about it….gbevers CANNOT leave Korea. I’ve met a few ESL teachers like him who complained up and down about everything in Korea….and they went on to Japan or to Europe, where they said life was better. But without exception, they DID return to Korea to live….permanently. Korea was too much a part of them. Seems nothing would satisfy them. Very sad. They couldn’t live with Korea but couldn’t live without it. For gbevers it’s that much worse since he’s spent DECADES in the Land of the Morning Calm.

PS I see through my tracer that someone from Australia looked at my blog today at an entry where I first linked to a certain anti-Korea site. Interesting.

Gbevers, say what you will. I only wish you the best in Korea, your home now and forever. Enjoy it. I am sure there are tons of people who would want to be in your shoes now. It’s a good place.

#80
Danes don’t post derogatory comments about Germany all over the net & out of context.

Since the following aside was brought up (#78 JK)…

“If I were to go to a country like Denmark and talk about how the Danes fought against the US on the side of Germany in WWII or that the Danes were liars or that Danes need to open their eyes and know the truth about how screwed up Danes are…..#1 would this help the Danes? and #2 would this help me as I live in Denmark?? The answer to both is no.”

The Danes (Danes) fought against the USSR in Frikorps Danmark and SS Nordland. The ones who did, around 10,000, were volunteers. The Danish Government did sign the Anti-Comitern Pact but there were no Danish army units involved fighting the USSR and Denmark did not declare war on the USSR (or the US). I don’t know of any Danish volunteers to fight the US. I’m sure there were some individuals, especially from Schleswig-Holstein. If you have information I’d be interested to hear.

Many Danes lie, although I’m struggling to think of an example that would particularly upset expats. I do think the Danes could do with a bit of eye-opening. With respect to the war people have been trying for years but most people aren’t interested (you could start, for example, with Sandi Toksvig’s rather rose-tinted version in Hitler’s Canary.) As for pointing out how screwed up the Danes are I’m all in favour. The Danes have become particularly adept recently at pointing out how screwed up others are, it would be good to see it going both ways.

So I think #1, it would help the Danes, especially if they listened, and #2, you’d probably find a number of people who were sympathetic if you tried, but many would just dismiss you as an apologist for extremism.

BTW, the above is in no way intended to reflect any opinion about gbevers and Korea.

I wouldn’t pick on the Danes. The French, now, they actually fought U.S. and British forces in North Africa, thus giving them the singular distinction of having surrendered to both sides in WWII.

Wow…talk about getting het up.

Say, Gerry, did that Japanese artist ever do any more comics about your situation? Are the originals still available online?

Why is it that people like #87 who make rather harsh assessments of Japan and the Japanese here seem to be Americans, Australians, or Canadians of Korean descent? Correct me if I’m wrong.

@89:
“First, I would advise you to drop the word ‘white’ from your arguments. Gratuitous discrimination along racial lines only serves to weaken your objectivity and therefore your argument.

Fine. Let’s say “Westerners of European descent” as opposed to “white.” Happy?

“Second, with regard to the above-stated claim, I fail to see the line of reasoning.”

Well let me explain it slowly and methodically to you now.

Matt made his implied assertion about Koreans and Japanese in #81. I made a replyin #83 as to why I thought his assertions were incorrect. Then someone under the id KSPark commented in #85 that “Koreans” do this, and “Koreans” do that based on what I, an American, wrote. I then gave my reply that whereas blogs like this are populated with commenters who make generalizing remarks about Koreans (which aren’t necessarily wrong nor are they always right) that a person being KOREAN or of Korean descent should not be held against him when making a comment about Japanese, or any other, culture ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that people who make generalizing comments about Korean culture often are “Westerners of European descent” or are Japanese. How are the comments about Koreans, be they positive or negative, from a Japanese or a “Westerner of European descent” any better or worse than comments about the Japanese from an American (me) who happens to be of Korean descent? THAT was my point. I saw a hypocrisy in the comment by the person going under the id “HSPark.”

“Are you asserting that nationality determines expertise?”

Not at all. Once again, read HSPark’s remark and my rebuttal….and do so objectively please.

“Are you equating expertise with arrogance in the event that a non-national commands greater expertise than the average national?”

Not at all, once again. In fact I am saying that I have as much right as anyone else to make a comment on another culture that is not my own EVEN IF I HAPPEN TO BE OF KOREAN DESCENT. Why is my right to make a comment about another culture suspect because I happen to be of Korean descent? Since you seem to be sensitive to racial references, I would think you would support me on this. Read over HSPark’s remark that made a remark about “Koreans” in reply to my remark, which in turn was merely a reply to Matt’s remark which DID make a comparison of Koreans and Japanese. (BTW, I don’t believe Matt is of Korean descent yet no one questioned his right to make a comment about Koreans, even though he is usually wrong).

“The self-sabatage apparent in these arguments is that they attempt to argue from exclusivity, which effectively invalidates the argument you are putting forth.”

The word is “sabotage” I believe. If you would actually READ over all the comments and not do so selectively, you would see that I am NOT arguing from exclusivity at all. Hence my argument is not at all invalidated.

Anything else?

“Why is it that people like #87 who make rather harsh assessments of Japan and the Japanese here seem to be Americans, Australians, or Canadians of Korean descent? Correct me if I’m wrong.”

Okay, you’re wrong. I’ve heard this from plenty of Americans of European and African descent as well.

#95
What do WWII conducts have to do with cultural/ethnic assessments of modern Japanese like the one JK is engaging now, or the claims of cultural suzerainty by the Koreans (and the Chinese) over the Japanese that I often see here? I think they’re misplacing their grief.

My point was not trying to ascertain whether or not a given icon of either country was in a position of power. My point was that it would be wrong to just pick either of those icons and ascribe either to be a representative icon of each’s nationality. In that respect, Cho Seung Hui is fair game. If that example does not fit well, Kim Jong Il could easily fill in for Cho.

“Fine. Let’s say “Westerners of European descent” as opposed to “white.” Happy?”

No. The validity of a person’s statement should be evaluated on content rather than in terms of his racial heritage, just as I support your statement that “my right to make a comment about another culture (should not be) suspect because I happen to be of Korean descent.”

European descent is just another code word for “white” really. Do I really need to remind people that this is the 21st century, and the general social consensus is that we need to be post-racial?

Yes, people often generalize about “Koreans”, “Americans,” etc., and yes, it is often done in a hurtful, goading manner. Although we may be post-racial, we are not yet post-national or post-cultural.

One of the other posters here, who is also Korean American, made the suggestion that the commonality in American culture might be summarized as “arrogant,” “bad food”, etc. This is an example of hasty generalizations based entirely on sterotyping and/or personal prejudice. Similarly I have heard some Americans (regardless of race) stereotype Europeans as arrogant, and the English as having bad food, etc. The stereotypes are false and can be experienced as false as one gets acquainted with French people.

OK, so sterotyping on all sides is deplorable. That said, let me state what I see as the crux of the issue.

A common experience among foreign residents in Korea is frustration, anger and caustic criticism. Some indeed acquire antipathy. Where does this come from? In affirming your perception that this anti-Korean sentiment is quite pervasive among foreign residents, wouldn’t the next logical step be to analyze how it is that is that it becomes so pervasive?

Surely, the vast majority of foreign residents know precious little about the country before arriving, and it follows that they wouldn’t live here if they harbored prejudices from the start. It therefore follows that this antipathy is not innate, but acquired in the course of the expatriates’ experiences in Korea.

So rather than simply accepting a facile explanation and writing it off as racial or cultural prejudice, when surely any observer of American culture would know better, wouldn’t it be logical to engage in a bit of introspection and discovery to understand exactly what it is in the experience of the expat that so often causes antipathy?

I leave the question to you. Perhaps a constructive dialogue can yet develop but I’m afraid that for this to happen, everyone needs to get past racial and cultural stereotypes and discuss the question in a mutually respectful way. Or we can continue to attribute this unfortunate situation to peoples’ race, gender or culture and therefore perpetuate and compound the problem.

In other words, if we care how we are perceived and want to know why we are so perceived, wouldn’t it be more constructive to inquire, rather than deny?

“So far, however, I am really impressed and totally surprised that the Korean public has managed to keep the US Beef import fiasco separate from Nogunri, the Korean War, or Ohno”

Is that your perception of the situation? Do you honestly fail to see the linkage?

“Anyways, this debate is getting pointless because for each example of how people in Japan, Europe, or whites in DC are offensive, I can come up with an equal or higher number of counter examples for Koreans committing offensive acts. What’s your end purpose?”

I have often pondered about why people sometimes accuse one another of harboring certain feelings and motives when the logical thing to do would be to simply ask them what they are really thinking?

Why don’t we just clear up all the misunderstandings and ask everyone what their end purpose is in the dialogue?

104 (Mizar5), you bring up a very interesting point.

What’s interesting is that Korea seems to be a nation to which foreigners will go and live a couple of years, and end up leaving hating the country and its people even more than prior to arriving for the first time.

Usually, with other countries, it’s the opposite. Westerners might have negative feelings about China, Philippines, Japan, or Vietnam but after living in those countries for a while and experiencing real people instead of myths propagated by anti-Chinese/Japanese/Vietnamese propagandists (such as some of the kyopo posters in here) they develop a liking to their host countries which they carry over even upon returning to their home countries.

On the other hand, foreigners go to Korea with positive anticipation and high expectations because prior to going, all they hear from Koreans is that “Korea is the best country in the world” or “Koreans are the most physically attractive people in Asia”, or “Koreans are inherently good, peaceful, and never will cheat. Only Chinese and Japanese are cruel and dishonest.” Thus, many of them go to Korea expecting a real heavenly treat with lots of positive feelings about Korea.

Unfortunately, after arriving in Korea and spending enough time there to discover the truth of Korea’s real face, these foreigner undergo a drastic change. They witness first hand the bigotry, selfishness of the “me first”-ism ruling the country, childish arrogance, disregard for consideration of the non-Korean point of view. As a result, foreigners feel cheated and betrayed and end up with feelings of contempt and disdain for Korea even though they came without any. It’s the opposite of what happens to foreigners when they travel to other Asian countries.

Thus, when foreigners bring up this very interesting and valid point on internet discussion boards like this, the first reaction by Korean-Americans and Koreans always seems to be that of defensiveness consisting of “I have experienced the same bad things in your country so don’t say anything bad about Korea” or “You have some nerve trying to hold Korea to the same standard of western countries when we have our own special standard.” The point is that the Koreans and kyopos always an excuse. On the other hand, one response you will never hear from is the expected mature reply of “Hmm…it’s obvious that many foreigners seem to have difficulties and express frustration at alot of aspects of Korean culture and society. I wonder why that is? Maybe we should take a deeper self-retrospective analysis of ourselves to find out what we can do to improve this situation.”

(Continuing from 109)

Oh yeah, and Feng, back in the old days of 1999 and 2000 used to talk about how Koreans proclaimed themselves to be superior to the Japanese and Chinese (and he seemed fluent in both the Japanese and Chinese languages). Another common reference he would use sarcastically was “5000 year history…”

I guess if someone like me is still hitting Korea blogs after almost ten years, it should be no surprise that Feng would as well.

“Anything you can generalize, I can generalize better. I can generalize anything better than you…Personal observations, no matter how long and extensive, cannot be used to conclude anything about an entire society.”

That’s a pretty broad generalization. The above fallacy is called petitio principii or begging the question, in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises.

In fact, if reasonable inferences could not be drawn from observations, there would be no scientific method. Inductive inference is the very method of science. A theory is proposed based on multiple observations, usually observations carried out with great care, using measurement. The theory is then tested many times, by independent investigators, using their own multiple observations. If the theory proves correct to within the accuracy of those observations, then it is provisionally accepted. Any scientific theory is subject to additional testing, and may be modified or overthrown based on additional evidence.

With regard to logic, the process by which a conclusion is inferred from multiple observations is inductive reasoning. The conclusion may be correct or incorrect, or partially correct, or correct to within a certain degree of accuracy, or correct in certain situations.

“Japanese nationalists are keeping that one in the vault just in case they need it. They don’t need it now, so they are not using it.”

Now this sounds paranoid.

“Japanese schools certainly teach that.”

No they don’t. Talk about disinformation! I’m surprised that you engage in this kind of game.

“It isn’t too much of a jump to say that she conquered southern Korea if and when Japan desires to think about inter island expansion.”

Yes, it is too much of a jump. You’re spreading fear based on false assumptions.

@#116
Except that the observations themselves are inadequate in the situation. Ever been irritated in your life? How true or scientific would it be if I happened to see you when you were irritated and I decided ‘Man, that dude got some issues.’?

I’m sure (or hoping, for their sake) that neither of the two have been observing the same people or observing the same group of people no smaller than defined by race or nationality (which would be ridiculously broad as you suggested above). Even then, the assertions that states ‘Koreans are [blank]‘ or ‘Whites are [blank]‘ are at fault because it fails to consider other possibilities of causality.

In short, unless JK or HSPark has consistently observed a population of whites/Koreans with control (variables that need to be controlled, btw, would be impossibly numerous), both are pulling things out of their asses.

A kid that went to the same high school with me called all Asian kids at school ‘Ching-Chongs’(guys) and ‘Ching-Changs’(girls). But my observation of his behavior cannot possibly represent American or even Arizonan society.

While volunteering, I’ve seen quite a number of amazingly heartwarming incidences of charity, compassion, etc. But it would be foolish of me to use that as the characteristics of Americans or Arizonans.

Hence, personal observations pertaining to people (perhaps I should’ve included this) means jack shit if you’re trying to draw a conclusion to the entire society. People are way more complex than just a couple of throw-away sentences.

bumfrom Korea: “Except that the observations themselves are inadequate in the situation. Ever been irritated in your life? How true or scientific would it be if I happened to see you when you were irritated and I decided ‘Man, that dude got some issues.’?”

Fallacious comparison. You would be observing just a single aspect of my personality. As opposed to living in the midst of a culture, experiencing it intimately for a number of years.

“In short, unless JK or HSPark has consistently observed a population of whites/Koreans with control (variables that need to be controlled, btw, would be impossibly numerous), both are pulling things out of their asses.”

Agreed. The controls you speak of in the realm of social interaction are such things as openmindednes, empathy. objectivivity, observation, fact checking, interaction, discussion, inductive reasoning and critical analysis.

What is problematic is the “ugly” tourists or visitors who assiduosly quarantine themselves from the culture at lodge, view things from a narrow, solipsistic perspective, and interpret their observations in a manner aimed at justifying beliefs. These people cannot be reasoned with because they are stuck in a belief system that walls them off from reality.

JK, people in Japan people really don’t care about your personal activities. You can be a lecturer or professor in a university, and take positions on political subjects and conduct personal research without the fear of firing. This is not a generalization, it is a fact.

Koreans in the meantime cannot handle it when foreigners refuse to validate their beliefs.

To give an example of tolerant Japan, there is the case of Pak Il. He is a zainichi Korean (a Korean citizen) and frequently appears on Japanese TV and forcefully presents the Korean point of view. He is a professor at a Japanese university, and is able to make statements against the Japanese viewpoint without any official retribution, unlike what happened to Gerry Bevers when the Koreans at his university freaked out.

Let me say personally that I was treated quite well by a few strangers I encountered in Japan, especially when I was lost. I will always be grateful to them. But yes, I did experience my frustrations, too, that still get me mad to think about (I mean REALLY mad). The necessity for this group think and all drove me nuts (like you wouldn’t believe), and it did get in the way of my travel plans where someone had promised to take me somewhere but at the last minute backed out of it because this other group of friends showed up and wanted to go elsewhere – so I went alone to where we had both originally planned to go. The Japanese person felt guilty for backing out of the promise with me….but that person still felt it more important to preserve the group dynamics despite the promise made to me several days before. And while Koreans can place importance on groups, too, many seem to have enough independence to do their own thing, too, in order to keep their commitments.

What, a tourists being subjected to “group think”? LOL. Sorry, but this sounds like bunk. I don’t know what happened to you but I doubt you being abandoned by the Japanese person had anything to do with “group dynamics”.

Matt @126:

What happened to me in Japan is true. I met some very considerate Japanese….and some who were too weak-willed and indecisive. Take it or leave it. Unlike you, who lies about so-called “kyopo discrimination” and “racism” against you, I actually tell the truth. And at least I don’t go to a blog run by a Korean-American (me) under a silly alias like “kyopoboy.” Hence that’s why I booted your ass of it. *sniff sniff*

As for what happened to gbevers, if I had been the university president in the US and gbevers was a foreign (like, say Korean) teacher on contract there, I doubt I would have renewed his contract either if he had gone on and on about how Americans are liars or that America should quit lying about its history and that Americans are an immature people or that 9/11 was greatly exaggerated by Americans or wasn’t all that bad (the way bevers goes on and on about how the Japanese colonization wasn’t that bad for Koreans). He has the right to say what he wants, and I, if I were a university president, would have to right to renew his one-year contract or not. Now if gbevers, OVER THE YEARS, decided to tweak the nose of his host country one too many times foolishly, then he had what was coming to him.

And you actually helped him shoot himself, Matt, through your anti-Korea blog. You gave him a public forum where he got the attention he would not have normally gotten. And everyone reading this now knows that. How does that make you feel, Matt? You, living in the Land of the Convicts while cowardly writing your many biased lies about Korea, encouraged gbevers to write his many critiques of Korea on your blog. He had already put his foot in his mouth…but you helped shove it down his throat. You, Matt.

Blame Korea all you want for this one, but ultimately responsibility falls on gbevers…and yourself for encouraging his behavior. Now that IS a laugh.

Actually what happened to gbevers is not laughable and is sad. But what’s really sad is that gbevers still doesn’t realize that what he did was just plain stupid. I believe everyone, regardless of WHERE they stand on Korea-Japan relations, agrees with this. And yet, what happened to him would not have been possible without your help, Matty boy, while you were safely away from Korea.

And yet gbevers will never blame you for this. Instead he’ll blame Korea but not you and certainly not himself.

“JK, people in Japan people really don’t care about your personal activities. You can be a lecturer or professor in a university, and take positions on political subjects and conduct personal research without the fear of firing. This is not a generalization, it is a fact.”

Hm, let’s see if you’ll have a change of mind if gbevers goes to Japan for DECADES, writes repeatedly over the decades that Japan is a nation of liars, that Japan lies about its history…and that the Japanese are all terrorists (like gbevers said about Koreans in 2001 at the Korea Times)….and then doesn’t have his yearly contract at a Japanese university renewed. But we both know gbevers WON’T go to Japan. He’s home forever in Korea.

“Koreans in the meantime cannot handle it when foreigners refuse to validate their beliefs.”

What would happen to an American teacher on a yearly contract in Israel who goes on and on in public about how Jews are liars, that Israel lied or greatly exaggerated the extent of the Holocaust, that Nazi Germany was not as had as the Jews make it out to be, that Jews are blind and full of crap, etc.? Would this American lecturer truly be the victim of Jewish persecution? Answer that, Matty boy? And what would you say then, Matt? that “Jews in the meantime cannot handle it when foreigners refuse to validate their beliefs”?

Oh and be careful what you do because you’ve already helped cost Bevers one job. You don’t want to cost him another, do you?

Then again, maybe you do. After all, you’re safely far away from Korea so why should you care if gbevers loses his job, huh? Make Koreans the scapegoat for his stupidity.

What happened to me in Japan is true. I met some very considerate Japanese….and some who were too weak-willed and indecisive. Take it or leave it. Unlike you, who lies about so-called “kyopo discrimination” and “racism” against you, I actually tell the truth. And at least I don’t go to a blog run by a Korean-American (me) under a silly alias like “kyopoboy.” Hence that’s why I booted your ass of it. *sniff sniff*

JK, I am not saying that you were not abandoned by the Japanese person in Japan, what I am saying is that it probably has nothing to do with “group think” or “group dynamics”.

As for the kyopoboy moniker, it has nothing to do with making people think I am a kyopo. The username has a history from an old adversary on DavesESL. When I did post using ‘kyopoboy’ on xanga or whatever it was, I always made it clear that I was not a kyopo, that I am a white Australian. I never posted on your blog, btw. I think the reason you booted me is because I brought up racially charged comments found on your blog, comments that belie what you say here. I think dogbert and several others also saw the comments before you closed your blog to casual viewing.

As for what happened to gbevers, if I had been the university president in the US and gbevers was a foreign (like, say Korean) teacher on contract there, I doubt I would have renewed his contract either if he had gone on and on about how Americans are liars or that America should quit lying about its history and that Americans are an immature people or that 9/11 was greatly exaggerated by Americans or wasn’t all that bad (the way bevers goes on and on about how the Japanese colonization wasn’t that bad for Koreans). He has the right to say what he wants, and I, if I were a university president, would have to right to renew his one-year contract or not. Now if gbevers, OVER THE YEARS, decided to tweak the nose of his host country one too many times foolishly, then he had what was coming to him.

And you actually helped him shoot himself, Matt, through your anti-Korea blog. You gave him a public forum where he got the attention he would not have normally gotten. And everyone reading this now knows that. How does that make you feel, Matt? You, living in the Land of the Convicts while cowardly writing your many biased lies about Korea, encouraged gbevers to write his many critiques of Korea on your blog. He had already put his foot in his mouth…but you helped shove it down his throat. You, Matt.

Blame Korea all you want for this one, but ultimately responsibility falls on gbevers…and yourself for encouraging his behavior. Now that IS a laugh.

Actually what happened to gbevers is not laughable and is sad. But what’s really sad is that gbevers still doesn’t realize that what he did was just plain stupid. I believe everyone, regardless of WHERE they stand on Korea-Japan relations, agrees with this. And yet, what happened to him would not have been possible without your help, Matty boy, while you were safely away from Korea.

And yet gbevers will never blame you for this. Instead he’ll blame Korea but not you and certainly not himself

Sorry, but Koreans don’t pay enough to make it worthwhile to sell out. Gerry is 100% correct in what he has been saying about the Dokdo/Takeshima issue, and that Koreans cannot handle it is a reflection of them, not Gerry.

I really feel sorry for foreigners that worry that feel they need to agree with Koreans for the sake of employment in Korea. Nothing a Korean can give is worth tossing your values out the window. Foreigners with self respect know this, and respect Gerry’s stand, no matter what they think of the particulars of it.

You may be a Korean American, but you are just like Koreans in that no matter how much a foreigner respects Korean culture, learns the language, follows the manner and customs, if the foreigner disagrees with Koreans on a deal breaker (like Dokdo, the printing press, glorious Korean history, or whatever), then all that amounts to nothing. The fact is that Koreans are not like people in most other countries – they are hyper-sensitive to outside opinion, and constantly seeking validation.

“As for what happened to gbevers, if I had been the university president in the US and gbevers was a foreign (like, say Korean) teacher on contract there, I doubt I would have renewed his contract either if he had gone on and on about how Americans are liars or that America should quit lying about its history”

Obviously, you don’t know very much about America, do you? Ever hear of Noam Chomsky?

Noam Chomsky was born an American citizen. There goes the logic behind that argument.

Excellent. I went out to eat dinner with a friend, and when I came back, Koreans are now mental patients. It only takes an evening…

It goes on and on and on and on…

HSPark did go over the edge there, but I hope him being banned won’t embolden folks here to continue expressing their ethno-hate. Especially when it comes to Japan, I do sense a feeling of shared entitlement to lash out whatever derogatory and unfounded comments as one sees fit. And they’re usually out of context with the thread.

@ Matt:

“JK, I am not saying that you were not abandoned by the Japanese person in Japan, what I am saying is that it probably has nothing to do with ‘group think’ or ‘group dynamics’.

Actually it was. My Japanese (granted, amateur) guide who had made a commitment to me to show me a Japanese tourist attraction I really wanted to see was saying to me after we met up with some common friends (and after I had said after an hour of talking with them, “we should get going if we’re gonna see what I came to see”), “We should stick together as a group.” I was like, “Uh, no. I flew all the way to Japan to see this thing, and you DID promise to show it to me.” So I went and saw it alone. I am sure you would like to believe this is all made up, Matt, but it really did happen.

“As for the kyopoboy moniker, it has nothing to do with making people think I am a kyopo.”

So FINALLY you admit to having been “kyopoboy” when coming to my blog after repeatedly lying about it. Thank you.

“The username has a history from an old adversary on DavesESL. When I did post using ‘kyopoboy’ on xanga or whatever it was, I always made it clear that I was not a kyopo, that I am a white Australian. I never posted on your blog, btw. I think the reason you booted me is because I brought up racially charged comments found on your blog, comments that belie what you say here. I think dogbert and several others also saw the comments before you closed your blog to casual viewing.”

Actually you DID comment on it…with links to that anti-Korea hate site of yours. And rather than give you any more recognition of your site than I already had (because whether you believe the tripe you write or not, one thing I DO know is that what you want is attention for your blog), I deleted your comment rather than give you any more recognition. And besides, you KNOW my blog is not closed to casual viewing since you yourself have been on it recently. (Let’s see him try to lie his way out of this one.)

“I think the reason you booted me is because I brought up racially charged comments found on your blog, comments that belie what you say here.”

Just like gbevers, “I think…” Pray tell what racially charged comments I made? Now this I have to hear.

“I really feel sorry for foreigners that worry that feel they need to agree with Koreans for the sake of employment in Korea. Nothing a Korean can give is worth tossing your values out the window. Foreigners with self respect know this, and respect Gerry’s stand, no matter what they think of the particulars of it.”

Read what I wrote in #128. That’s my response.

And the thing is you STILL won’t take any responsibility for your part in the whole gbevers contract-not-being-renewed situation. I don’t care WHO you may be and whether you agree with him or not or if you think gbevers got screwed or not or if his right to free speech was violated or whatever…..there is not a soul on this blog (with the exception of maybe gbevers himself) who didn’t think he was being stupid for going on as he did over the years….while living in Korea and working for a university in Korea on a yearly contract basis! And you helped kill him (figuratively speaking) on this, Matt. And even NOW you are throwing the blame on Koreans instead of admitting that you could have foreseen this coming way back before it got out of hand yet you helped fuel it and gave gbevers exposure that he would not have normally gotten. You can’t even admit this even now.

How does that make you feel, Matt? I guess you won’t have to endure any harm while sitting safely behind your computer monitor far away from Korea….but with a couple hits of your keyboard, you encouraged a guy in Korea to destroy his own livelihood. With friends like you, who needs enemies?

So FINALLY you admit to having been “kyopoboy” when coming to my blog after repeatedly lying about it. Thank you.

Show a link, any link, with me lying about this. Put up or shut up. I am honest – do you really think that baseless accusations are going fly here?

Actually you DID comment on it…with links to that anti-Korea hate site of yours. And rather than give you any more recognition of your site than I already had (because whether you believe the tripe you write or not, one thing I DO know is that what you want is attention for your blog), I deleted your comment rather than give you any more recognition. And besides, you KNOW my blog is not closed to casual viewing since you yourself have been on it recently. (Let’s see him try to lie his way out of this one.)

What comment? Anyway, if you say I have been viewing your weblog, feel free to post the IP address here. Robert can confirm if it is mine. Again, put up or shut up.

Just like gbevers, “I think…” Pray tell what racially charged comments I made? Now this I have to hear.

How about the stuff about the how kyopo are always able to steal a white guys Korean GF, about how many times you have done it, and how the white guys deserved it every time? Lots of racial animus there.

And the thing is you STILL won’t take any responsibility for your part in the whole gbevers contract-not-being-renewed situation. I don’t care WHO you may be and whether you agree with him or not or if you think gbevers got screwed or not or if his right to free speech was violated or whatever…..there is not a soul on this blog (with the exception of maybe gbevers himself) who didn’t think he was being stupid for going on as he did over the years….while living in Korea and working for a university in Korea on a yearly contract basis! And you helped kill him (figuratively speaking) on this, Matt. And even NOW you are throwing the blame on Koreans instead of admitting that you could have foreseen this coming way back before it got out of hand yet you helped fuel it and gave gbevers exposure that he would not have normally gotten. You can’t even admit this even now.

And you still don’t understand. There is never, ever a reason to supplicate Koreans, and certainly not for employment. When people say Gerry is stupid, they are speaking out of fear for their jobs in Korea. A job in Korea is never that important, period. Fear of violence on your wife or children might be a good enough reason, however.

JK, I have no intention of stalking you around the net. I washed my hands of you long ago. Here on Robert’s site I am merely trying to be as on topic as possible, without getting personal or throwing around wild accusations.

cmm:”Noam Chomsky was born an American citizen. There goes the logic behind that argument”

Not really, it partly addresses the argument that professors are not routinely fired for having unpopular or anti-American views.

There are also plenty of foreign-born political science professors who bring diverse viewpoints and have been critical of US policy. It just takes a little more research to find them. You can look into the Latino Caucus in Political Science, for instance.

Mizar, I never heard of a lecturer in the US with just a Master’s degree (an MBA at that) being awarded tenured university professorship status at any university. Heck, it’s hard enough for a person with a Ph.D to get tenureship as a professor.

Due to the unequal relationship between East and West (sorry, but it’s true which is why English as a second language is more valued in Japan and Korea than Japanese or Korean as a second language would be in the US) an American or Canadian or any other Westerner can get a job as a lecturer at a university in Korea with just a Bachelor’s degree in practically ANYTHING as long as they speak fluent English (yep, it’s that easy). How many university lecturers (be they foreign or American) in the US can say that? And keep in mind, I said “lecturer” not “professor.”

The ones teaching English as a second language in universities in Korea and Japan are lecturers only and are NOT professors with Ph.Ds who write research papers (though there are many exceptions at places like Yonsei and Sogang University where there are Ph.D professors in English who are American of European descent). Academically some of these people are on par in terms of academic credentials with Ph.D-educated professors in the US. However, let’s just say that they are in the clear minority and that gbevers, and MOST English teachers in Korea, are not in this category. Gbevers and others are lecturers on a contract-to-contract basis, and I have never EVER heard of a lecturer being granted tenured professorship (because a lecturer and a professor are two different things) unless they received their Ph.Ds in the West (usually America), though I am sure exceptions exist.

Chomsky, say what you will about him and his crazy views, was a professor with some academic credentials from what I understand. He wasn’t some guy with just a four-year degree or a Master’s degree who got his job simply because he spoke a language. He may be looney, but he is a professor while gbevers was not.

BTW, nothing is STOPPING all these Western lecturers in Korea from getting their Ph.Ds in their pursuit of professorship. Just because the bar is lowered in Korea for a person to be a university lecturer does not mean the person would want to improve himself in his pursuit of tenureship. That teacher would certainly require, at a minimum, a Ph.D if he wished to be a tenured professor in the US. Why should Korea expect less?

And so the cycle continues……and gbevers won’t stop……

Regarding Dokdo, as I have said repeatedly to you, I personally hope you DO prove that Dokdo belonged legitimately to Japan…and thus Korea can thus say it took Japanese land as a war reparation from Japan. As of yet, you have failed to prove that Dokdo WAS legitimately Japanese territory before 1905….thus Korea took back only Korean territory when it seized it after the defeat of Japan.

But I’m sure you’ll keep trying. I wish you well in this endeavor….and in your life in Korea.

Hey, when you discussed this issue with the Korean professor, you didn’t do your usual rants of “Koreans need to open their eyes” and “Koreans need to quit being blind to their history” and “the problem is Koreans are liars”, did you? DID YOU??

Sigh.

JK: “Due to the unequal relationship between East and West (sorry, but it’s true which is why English as a second language is more valued in Japan and Korea than Japanese or Korean as a second language would be in the US)…”

I suppose the fact that English is the international language of commerce and that the US has been Korea’s top export market has nothing to do with the desire of Koreans to learn English? I suppose the English language craze was imposed on Korea by the West too?

JK: “The ones teaching English as a second language in universities in Korea and Japan are lecturers only and are NOT professors with Ph.Ds who write research papers”

As is the precisely case with college ESL teachers in the US.

“an American or Canadian or any other Westerner can get a job as a lecturer at a university in Korea with just a Bachelor’s degree in practically ANYTHING as long as they speak fluent English (yep, it’s that easy). How many university lecturers (be they foreign or American) in the US can say that?”

Yes, US universities with ESL programs emply BAs and MAs, not PhDs. Have you ever heard of a TESOL degree?

Sorry, no double standard. But why reference hard facts when a fallacious conspiracy theory will serve the purpose of justifying your irrational prejudices, right?

I love JK’s accomodating way of discrediting his own arguments. Actually he is no more than an false ID I post under to bolster my own arguments. It’s a dirty trick, I confess, but it sure does the trick.

“Actually he is no more than an false ID I post under to bolster my own arguments. It’s a dirty trick, I confess, but it sure does the trick.”

Don’t be bitter that HSPark got outed, Mizar. He was guilty and he got caught. Don’t let this upset you. I’m sure there are still others willing to make outlandish, generalizing, overboard criticisms of all Koreans and Korean-Americans. (Mind you, I don’t mind legitimate critique of Koreans and Korean-Americans but HSPark, who sounded WAY too familiar, was going on some serious ranting. And btw, he had an interesting ID, eh? No wonder I remembered Feng from the old days of the Korea Times.)

I was meaning to post earlier but it’s mid-year reviews here at the office…

# 135,

So HSPark was bbundaegi’s sockpuppet? Interesting, as HSPark was a lot more virluent than I remember bbundagi being. However, him thinking that I was a part of some Korean/Kyopo propaganda cabal was a little strange.

# 118,

Regarding Jingu Kogo. I believe that in Japanese schools she’s either taught as legendary, semi-legendary or as an actual historical figure. I believe the vast majority of times (90%-ish I believe) she’s considered legendary. However, it seems to me there is a trend to look at this time in history more in lines with how the Nihon Shoki shows it, which is to see it as Japanese dominance of southern Korea in the 3rd to 6th centuries A.D.

This worries me because precluding an aggressive stance by Japan towards the Korean peninsula is a dusting off, if you will, of the Jingu legend and the Nihon Shoki’s account of the Yamato government’s supposed control of southern Korea. It happened during Hideyoshi’s regency before the Imjin War and it happened just before and just after the Meiji Restoration. This simple fact isn’t conjecture because it’s just something that happens before Japan invades Korea, kind of like lambasting (another tale of mythic proportions) weapons of mass destruction before an invasion.

However, I’m not saying that Japan will invade or audibly threaten Korea anytime soon. I’m just saying it’s something that needs to be monitored for the future.

I meant #154, that is.

Wangkon936, go to Japan and meet some actual Japanese people and you will see how unfounded your fears are. There is also a slight projection problem here as well, I think.

@160:

I share the same sentiments. The stereotype is that they make good tenants. I have heard that at some apartments in DC that someone who was Japanese didn’t have to put up a cleaning fee in order to rent while everyone else (American, Korean, Indian, whatever) did (it was apt. policy)…because of the reputation of Japanese for being so tidy.

And I agree with you, one-on-one Japanese are VERY friendly. By MY experience, it seemed to be a different story when there were a group of Japanese.

But yes, I am still suspicious, too.

Indeed. Reminds me of certain areas of the South (as in the USA) were I grew up. Reflect.

JK: “Indeed. Reminds me of certain areas of the South (as in the USA) were I grew up. Reflect.”

Really? Were they consistently involved in anti-foreign demonstations, too?

“Mizar, you sounded really mature in past comments you made (like early on in this thread), but after I corrected you on that whole Chomsky/gbevers tenure analogy…”

Oh, sorry, I must have missed that. Did you “correct” me, then? Did I say that Chomsky did not have tenure?

“…and after I pointed out the possibility that HSPark was a non-Korean multi-id commenter from years back….you took on a pretty angry, haughty tone that sounds bitter. What’s your beef?”

I’m sorry I really didn’t follow the HSPark thing either. I really don’t pay attention to off-topic or personal disputes. I only address the topic on hand, and if my ascerbit wit offends you, it is nothing personal. No need to take any of this seriously. It’s all pretty amusing.

Apologies for the double post. Just disregard one or the other. As for growing up in the South, where did you grow up – Atlanta?” Obviously I have no idea what that would be like. I resided in NYC and currently reside in the NE. I love it here.

Edit: “After he got caught for multi-iding (the previous id of “bbunddaegi” having already been banned) did you change your tone!”

LMAO Mizar5.

Types well, but has the balls and maturity of an eight year old.

LMAO your post screams “JAP”. Try to make your posts make sense.