Update: The original thread got the most hits, almost 7000 so far, among the dozens posted yesterday at Net Ease.
Often the Chinese, especially in a national or widely read forum, praise actions in foreign countries as an oblique criticism of the Chinese government. The message in this ode to people power in Korea isn’t hard to discern at all.
I’ll begin with the original post:
On April 18, 2008 began the “beef disturbance”,” which passed through several changes, finally brewing into a political typhoon, unexpected not only from South Koreans but from ordinary people. A little bit of beef, at best a business dispute, has quickly and unexpectedly evolved into major unrest. The South Korean prime minister and the cabinet plan collective resignations, resulting in a large-scale reorganization of the President’s office. President Lee Myung-bak apologized personally to the South Korean people and finally pushed the powerful US to sit down and sign a new agreement.
It must be said that South Korean President Lee Myung-bak does not have a long time to wield political power, and with the world’s economy facing a crisis, he wholeheartedly wants to achieve an economic breakthrough, seeking to raise his prestige in the hearts of the people. It is fair to say that he had good intentions in trying to get the people to trust in his governing authority, but because of small negligence, the people’s scruples and concerns were overlooked. This has finally brought about a political crisis for the administration with fears that this could become a permanent millstone.
South Korea’s “beef disturbance” has profound pedagogical meaning, giving the whole world three striking revelations:
First, it makes us realize that people power is endless, the call for justice strong, and one or two people may be weak, tiny specks, but a million people amass to become a mighty current, forming one cooperative effort. This great power is a strength that cannot be contended with in the world, cannot but prevail.
Second, it makes the ruling leaders recognize clearly that a government must put the needs of the people first. The people are not individuals; their needs can be taken as a whole, joining the people’s interests to the nation’s interests. If one dares to ignore the people’s demands, go against the people’s interests and will, this government will certainly face the people’s opposition and rejection.
Third, as long as the demand is reasonable, it will certainly attract sympathy. Although at first the voices may be small in number, they will become more widespread over time, with increasing numbers of people responding, the ranks becoming huge. It’s because the call for justice resonates most in people’s hearts, so crying out for justice will certainly emit a timely, loud sound.
The people are the body of the country, and food is their heaven. The South Korean people are the body of the South Korean government, beef is the South Korean people’s food, i.e. their heaven. This deductive process through the course of events in the South Korean “beef disturbance” alerts us to annotated sayings from the great classics.
(note: I think the “annotated sayings” in this final sentence refers to the “people are the body of the country…” bit preceding it.)
Selected translated comments:
“Doesn’t Korea have beef?”
“It does, but it’s much more expensive than US beef.”
“I don’t get these Gaoli bangzis. What’s all this stuff about sickness when the real issue is regional protectionism? Don’t they know they can trade with China? Our beef isn’t cheap, but relative to the US, it’s decent.”
“…Our country’s beef demand and production are completely different from Korea’s. Our country is basically self-sufficient but Korea is a top beef consumer, importing 2/3 of its needs. …(in China) Beef is expensive and limited to upscale restaurants… but in South Korea, imported beef is cheaper than domestic beef, proliferating consumption among different social classes. Our government insists on an independent economic policy without dependence on others. Food security is of highest importance in international trade of food imports and exports.”
“Now that’s real unity.”
“Korea’s nuts. Their so-called self-respect has erupted.”
“Beef is not only a symbol, but on a deeper level, the bangzis are afraid of Uncle Sam staring down at their purse strings, worried that Lee Myung-bak played with the Americans, and their economy will go belly up. During the last economic crisis, the bangzis donated jewelry to get through the hard time, left with a lingering fear. In fact, our country is the same. It’s only that the bangzis are radical.”
“Expand people power!”
“It’s the equivalent of Chinese people farting.”
“Pure regional protectionism! Narrow nationalism!”
{ 76 comments… read them below or add one }
Did you read about the Korean American woman who dared to speak up, being surrounded and verbally attacked by the protesters?
“한국말로 해라.” “미국에나 가라, 상대하지 말자.”
Speak Korean! Go back to America!
“한국말 모르면 아가리(입) 닥쳐!”
If you can’t speak Korean, just shut the fuck up!
This is what Chinese call the people power.
What is bangzi mean?
“Bangzi” means “hicks” or “bumpkins.” “Gaoli bangzi” is a common anti-Korean slur.
According to Matthew Stinson:
“One Chinese interpretation of ‘gaoli bangzi’ is that the original ‘gaoli bangzi’ were Korean enforcers serving the Japanese during the Japanese invasion of China. The Japanese didn’t trust the Koreans with guns, just big sticks (‘bangzi’), and Chinese use the name to refer to Koreans as thugs or hicks. It also may remind Chinese of Korean participation in ‘dismembering’ China.”
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
‘Selected translated comments:’
the operative word here is ‘selected’. let’s not forget this lady’s politics.
Anarchy in Korea, as hundreds of violent protesters shut down traffic as they drift from one place to another. This reminds me of the Chinese during the torch run in Seoul. One citizen asks why the police don’t do anything to stop them. Well duh.. if they do try to stop them, it’ll turn into another MBC-KBS-YTN-Hani media and netizen fest of how brutal the police are, and how they’re suppressing freedom. I say just disband the police, let the protesters go around and wreck everything. Just maybe that’ll make everyone realize the importance of law and order.
http://news.joins.com/article/3199503.html?ctg=1203
@ Pawi:
There were about 17 or 18 comments. I translated the pithy ones and excerpts from one longer one.
You learned Chinese and are so fond of using Chinese characters. Feel free to have a look and translate any interesting comments I’ve overlooked.
The comment section on this particular story was more civilized than some of the others I saw and didn’t regard as worth translating.
Another thread on the Net Ease international board posed the question: how long would it take for China to beat Korea in a war? The netizen posed the question after reading or hearing that it would take 48 hours to capture Taiwan and 49 to overtake Korea. It got about 3,000+ views and 70 replies. One commenter noted that 50 years ago, it took three months. Another suggested it wouldn’t take long as China could use North Korea as a gateway. Still another commenter observed that Korea does not possess atomic weapons and started counting the number of bombs it would take. No need to limit yourself to my selected paraphrases. You can practice your Chinese reading skills here, Pawi. Happy reading!
@Jeffery:
Your explanation is accepted amongst the Chinese, who sometimes deride the Koreans as Japan’s colonial dogs.
Reminiscent of their role in WWII.
Yes, mob rule, just what the Chinese need.
“Your explanation is accepted amongst the Chinese, who sometimes deride the Koreans as Japan’s colonial dogs.”
Sonagi, Chinese also deride Koreans as dogs of Americans too.
Chinese also blame the Koreans for the Nanjing Massacre. They say it was the Koreans serving under the Japanese who killed the Chinese, while the good Japanese were noble enough in trying to stop the Koreans from doing so.
Yes, you’re right, cm, that South Korea is called a lackey of the US.
I have never heard or read that there are Chinese who blame the Koreans for participating in the Nanjing Massacre. Any links?
I’ve no links, but it’s come up numerously when debating them. I don’t know where they are getting that. But that’s the latest trend.
“It’s the equivalent of Chinese people farting.”
What?
#13
在中国百姓的呼声等于放屁 could translate to:
In China, people’s protest equates to farting.
#7
Korean’s atrocity in Manucho days is well known..二狗子 (Japan’s colonial dogs) is what older generation Chinese in Northeast and Shangdong refered to Koreans back then.
#10
I like to think it is a rumor started by Chinese netizens 愤青(angry young people) who are in the mission to smear Koreans. They have vegence against Korean for their false teaching on its hisotry and nationalisic “scholars” that claim every “significant” to Korea.
Namuamitaba
Your translation of the fart comment is clearer than mine, thanks.
Fenqing(愤青) is commonly used in English conversations about China’s “angry youth.”
Besides English and Chinese, what other languages do you speak?
Excellent post Sonagi.
Korean, Japanese and little Spanish/Portugese….
Thanks Sonagi so its like JjangGae when Korean refering Chinese.
Eveyone hates Korean, Korean hates everyone!
This thread reminded me of this post from Dec. 12, 2007.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/12/12/korea-chinas-least-favorite-neighbor/
The posters to this thread have brought up some salient historical issues which are sure to go undiscussed among Koreans.
About 4 years ago, I was in the Philippines discussing the Koreans with a retired soldier. He accused them of brutal treatment of American P.O.W’s captured after the Japanese seizure of Wake Island in WWII. Subsequently I searched the web for contemporary accounts of brutality by Korean soldiers in the Japanese Imperial Army. Didn’t find much of anything, so I appreciate the previous poster’s frustration with a dearth of links.
Guess the Korean netizen groups are doing their job well. Long live perpetual victimhood!
‘He accused them of brutal treatment of American P.O.W’s captured after the Japanese seizure of Wake Island in WWII. Subsequently I searched the web for contemporary accounts of brutality by Korean soldiers in the Japanese’
an angry expat trying once again to make koreans responsible for ww2. man, you folks are just like parrots.
the most interesting thing here is the fact that the chinese spend so much time dissing koreans. korea is such a small country, you’d wonder why the chinese bother. of course, that’s rhetorical since what the chinese have is a bad case of jealousy. they’re pissed off by the fact koreans are richer than they are. that’s why they constantly tell themsleves they’ll be better than koreans in 20 years. poor chinaman.
on ‘jumong’:
the show dealt with korean history. if the koreans want to make soaps about it, that’s their right since they’ve been claiming the history of koguryeo and balhae for over a thousand years. that’s quite different from the chinese claim which is about 20 years old and politically motivated.
on chinese netizens:
well, since you’re average westerner here says that blog boards in the west are not represntative of westerners, i’ll have to say the same for the easterners. people should not worry too much about what some 90 pound chinese dude has to say bout this, bout that.
on chinese:
does it bother you i’m not in the dark in chinese? i get the feeling you are. i stopped learning chinese because i found the language so boring with the same sounds being repeated over and over again. you know, japanese is a sound poor language just like chinese but there’s something melodic and pretty about the japanese language. can’t say the same for chinese. in fact, i’ll leave you with:
a young filipina i know is in love with korean soaps. i’ve lent her my entire collection. one day, i offered to lend here some chinese stuff and her faced changed from one with a smile to one of apprehension. she then said this:
‘i don’t wanna watch chinese stuff. i don’t like how their language sounds. they seem to be repeating the same things over and over. it’s so ugly. it’s not like korean which sounds mellow to me…..’
nuff said.
#21
“nuff said” Indeed, The popularity of korean soaps and the mellow sound of the korean language should be sufficient to remove any doubt concerning East Asian historical or territorial claims.
Bae Yong Joon trumps all!
‘The popularity of korean soaps and the mellow sound of the korean language should be sufficient to remove any doubt concerning East Asian historical or territorial claims.’
you just so wish it weren’t true, yes? what happened? korean guy beat you up?
pawi deigns to pass the cultural jewels to a flipa. i’m impressed. that racial sensitivity class you’ve been attending must be working out for you.
please keep writing!
your pen-friend,
Manifico Pinoy (aka wtf?)
The duck is quacking again.
#23. Yep, I’m all black and blue.
Could somebody pass me a filleting knife?
On the contrary..
Mandarin Chinese is a beautiful sounding language.
It has astonishing ways of expressing emotions, thoughts, and descriptions through multiple grammatical patterns and tones to tantalize the listener.
Just because you might be tone deaf…does not mean everyone else is.
Yeah no Chinese is not a beautiful sounding language. Listen to a Chinese song and its like a series of high pitched squeals.
I find it funny China even talking about this when their citizens dont have the balls to protesting something like basic freedom.
ok that was horrible grammer but my point is the same.
#21
Jealousy of Korea!! au contrare!! Chinese people are extremely proud of their big country, diverse ethnicites, robust ecomony etc etc.. Their netizens are jerking off with aim to take over America less than decade. Korean is just an easy target for them than Japan since Korea is less advanced than Japan, but more pathetic than Japan with twisted fantasy histories and snobbish attitude toward other Asians.
Chinese begin to know more about modern post-war Korea and its inferiority complex and what we see are manifestation of extrem contempt toward years and years of Korean ignorance. Take for example of traditional eastern medicine praticed in Korea. Are you awared that Korean government made a mandatory move good ten years ago to force clinics to adopt 한의 in 韓醫 (Korea Hankuk Han) instead of 漢醫 (Chinese Han Dyansty Han) which was used for centuries. The movement to deny its linkage with anything Chinese (association with imperial Chinese dynasty) such as this is one example. How about the past Korean government policy that discouraged the use of 한자 Chinese character and then attempt to fully revive due to increase business relationship with China etc etc.. All this undoubtedly is none of your fucking business to anyone besides Koreans… That argument goes with drama like “Jumong” and others that deals about Korean histories “exclusively” Whatever Korean want to do with their citizens within their country albeit not “politically” motivated is still okay..
However, we are living in the information age (why you are reading blog?) and Chinese watched these drams and got to know Korean psyche and then comparing with Japanese. Do Japanes have problem denying or take credit Chinese culture? Knowing China has its national interest to keep N. Korea in power to avoid American incursion….I wonder what conclusion and action will Chinese take dealing with neighboring countries including Korea?
Chinese is not a democratic country easily taken over by peple in candle light protest. Like you said, Korean dramas are still prefered over Chinese and Japanese and it is still popular and good export for Korea as well. But with bad tensions and publicities like these keep go on and on…I wonder how long it would last..
Regardless of the motivation on claiming of Goguryo, if Chinese are pissed off (in the process of findng a justification), can Korean NOT give a shit about it knowing its economy is dependented upon China?
The matter therefore is quite complicated and Chinese netizens operate under the watchful eyes and even guidance from the government that believes censorship to spread these nonesenses.
Resorting to racial term like Chinamen and “disrespect” Korea because of Korea’s financial wellbeing hence jealousy is proof to me many Koreans still don’t get it and probably never will..
Namuamitaba
“Chinese begin to know more about modern post-war Korea and its inferiority complex and what we see are manifestation of extrem contempt toward years and years of Korean ignorance”
I really don’t think Chinese should be the ones to lecture Koreans of “inferiority complexes”. That’s like the pot calling the kettle black.
“Their netizens are jerking off with aim to take over America less than decade.”
Correct when you say they’re jerking off. Masturbatory fantasies doesn’t mean Chinese will take over America in reality.
‘that discouraged the use of 한자 Chinese character and then attempt to fully revive due to increase business relationship with China etc etc..’
are you sure about this? please provide source material. i wish the above were true because chinese characters are part of korea’s culture. i support any attempt at their revival though i think the koreans should radicalize them a bit by using them even when it’s a native korean word.
ex: 忘지못할 那人 잊지못할 그사람
as for your comments on chinese medicine, i suppose you didn’t catch dae jang guem. watch it, you might learn something.
cm, weren’t you the chief evangelist of the “China will take over America” crowd? You really have done a 180.
Robert, has someone hijacked cm’s account?
Languages aren’t ugly. But the people who speak them can be.
Nulji make Korean, Chinese, AND English ugly languages.
Languages aren’t ugly. But the people who speak them can be.
Nulji make Korean, Chinese, AND English ugly languages.
Languages aren’t ugly. But the people who speak them can be.
Nulji makes Korean, Chinese, AND English ugly languages.
Anything worth saying about pwi is worth saying three times, I guess.
“cm, weren’t you the chief evangelist of the “China will take over America” crowd? You really have done a 180″
Not really. It was just a brief experiment in masturbatory fantasy, in response to expat masturbatory fantasies of China invading and taking over Korea.
It’s like China is like poop that everyone uses to hurl at people you don’t like.
yeah, what are you, a witch?
Ugly man, ugly words.
If all you can come up with is “ooooh, he posted three times!”, that’s pitiful. We all know that’s a common glitch. For all the effort Robert puts in to tweaking his site, I don’t know why that problem hasn’t been fixed.
Translation question for Siddhartha and anyone else:
How would you translate 演绎 in 2008年4月18日引发的韩国“牛肉风波”经过多次演绎，终于酿成了一场政治风暴? The standard English equivalent “deduction” doesn’t fit here as we usually think of a deduction as a thinking activity. In this sentence, 经过多次演绎 seems to be referring to how the issue changed over the course of a few weeks from one debated by experts, politicians, and activists to a loosely organized mass movement. This change involved not only analysis, a thinking activity, but actual activities by the actors themselves.
演绎 appeared again in the final sentence, 囯以民为本，民以食为天。韩国人民是韩国政府的本，牛肉是韩国人民的食，亦即韩国人民的天，韩国的这个“牛肉风波”的演绎过程，就是对这一警世名言最最经典的诠释, but this time the context is ideas and language, so “deduction” seemed to fit.
I was going to compliment you on this post, but seeing how you slandered me on another post…well…I remain fairminded, and still compliment you anyway.
#31
“I really don’t think Chinese should be the ones to lecture Koreans of “inferiority complexes”. That’s like the pot calling the kettle black”
True..the Chinese inferiority complex..caused by 国耻 national shame of late Qing dynasty that lost to western powers is no doubt a monkey in the back for many Chinese. However, no Chinese academia (mainstream or fringe) establishment (within and outside of China)is native and stupid to mess the geopolitical reality. Do you ever hear Chinese teaching their children Mongolia was our land thus we need to take it back someday?
#32
Korea unlike Singapore does not get into frequent official campaign..you will never know about it because it will hurt Korean feeling..cowtow to Chinese just like Chosen dynasty emperor did..Taboo!!
I love Ta Jang Gum, saw it many times..but not sure what to learn from? Jang Gum performing ceasarian section? I was pointing to the movement to de-Sinolization in Korea society. Change of Chinese character 漢 to 韓 is subtle but it says a lot. Don’t you think?
BTW I have trouble with Chinese sounds as well…You are not the only one..it is source of troubles among Chinese North/South divide. Blame Qing dynasty for what it had done..China you probably know are countries within the country.
@Siddhartha,
As someone who watches Korean dramas, you might find this thread interesting.
Aren’t you going to answer my question? If you’re not sure, just say so.
#41
I read it as “progression” or “evolve” for both places depending on the sentence context.
Although “Deduction” in last sentence seems to fit because the writer break down the “Classical Text” in reasoning but since “eastern” classic is no math, I would not read as such.
Namuamitaba
#44
Does it help? FYI..just like Korean language, Use of Chinese in cyberspace is getting out of hand so be careful.
What thread? Cannot open!!
Yes, thank you.
I just laugh at most of what I read in online Chinese forums and try to pick up some slang while I’m sorting recyclables from the trash. I did notice that Koreans are the flavor of the month, and even you yourself cited a complaint echoed in the forums about Koreans changing 漢 to 韓.
Do you have any favorite blogs or forums?
As for the thread, go to Net Ease and look in the international section for the post “韩国的饭菜有多贵”.
http://WWW.TIEXUE.NET
Fenqing orgy 24 and 7…
Just to let you know, I live through the Korean’s de-Sinolization campaign so my information is first hand.
“cowtow to Chinese just like Chosen dynasty emperor did..Taboo!!”
Correction, the Chosun king kowtowed to the Manchu’s before they became “Chinese” emperors.
Machurian=Chinese
Qing dynasty use Han characters after all and did not claim it is their invention..
you must not have learned much, sid. the chinamen went running around claiming dae jang guem promoted the idea that chinese medicine was korean. no such thing occurred but that didn’t stop your people from huffin and puffin, did it?
as for the use of 韓, yeah so what? it’s our language, we can do what we want. i suppose this is akin to the temper tantrum your people had when koreans decided to chnage the name of ‘hanyang’ to sho er.
lastly, how do you think you would react if you were korean and you constantly had chinese people telling you that you’re actually chinese? i don’t blame the koreans for being sick of the jjangke and the chip on his shoulder.
one more thing, do the japanese have a complex with the chinese? nope. their complex is with the koreans. they try every which way to erase korea’s very large hand in developing their culture. took look at articles at wiki, i’m surprised how many times the japanese feel the need to deny a korean connection. grammar, shinto, geisha, samurai, imperial family-nope nothing to do with korea. indeed, the other day, i looked up misora hibari. the people who wrote the wiki piece went out of their way to tell us that hibari ain’t korean.
btw, how did you like that chinese drama that informed it’s audience that genghis khan was chinese?
Ugly man, ugly words.
Question again, why would Chinese netizens “huffin and puffin” on Da Jang Gum? Did Da Jang Gum drama made a point that they are partice “Korean” medicine? I like to point out another popular Korea drama called “Huh Jun” Did you remember that? Both dramas deal with eastern medicine so did you hear Chinese netizen attack “Huh Jun”? Their reaction like I said is against what Korean society has done over the year on its twisted history teaching!!! Average Chinese netizens espeically Fenqings will not dwell into all these details, you know that!! They will attack whatever it is popular and guess who is fueling this in China.
Koreans can do whatever they please..this isn’t EU..so grunges over three generations do not move on…bitching will continue.
For those Korean including youself to be called Chinese…What is wrong with that? The correct context should be 5000 years ago. Jjanggae and Gaoli Bangzi were no different!!
So true on Japanese complex on Korean….it is more subtle but hey if Korean history teaching stop emphasize Korean is the “one” who influence Japan etc. Japanese will not bother.
I think Genghis Khan is a Chinese..His roort is in Inner Mongolia which is Chinese province. Don’t forget China has 50 minorities and Mongolian and Korean (whether you like it or not) are part of it. BTW why Koreans like to throw “blood line” in this?
Namuamitaba
koreans aren’t chinese, sid. sorry, i’ve got bad news for you. i’ll have to ask marmot on whether his wife sees herself as chinese. something tells me she doesn’t. genghis khan isn’t chinese either. sorry. dwei boo chee.
btw, if you can’t use american slang, then, i suggest you don’t because it makes you look foolish.
‘why would Chinese netizens “huffin and puffin” on Da…’
it should be huff and puff in the case above
ps are blacks white, sid?
Just like you English is my second language but I don’t mind being stupid to reference your fine words..many people read this blog so please type neatly..it will help a lot!
White=Black
I am not a politian running for an office in US so you know the answer.
Pawi, I am getting very bored..throwing Color to eastern Asia ethnicity. Ball Four!! I am taking the base!!
“His roort is in Inner Mongolia which is Chinese province.”
Nope.Temujin was born in today’s Khentii Aimag and it locates in free and independent part of Mongolia.Sorry.
#59
Really? the Chinese history book lied? Shite, they copy Korean now? In that case, he is Mongolian..His grand grandson is Chinese then..
Namuamitaba
Chingghis’s “grand-grand son” had lived in almost anywhere in Eurasia.
Even in Japan too.
You sound shocked. C’mon, Siddhartha. All national histories are biased, some more than others. I have in my home school and general history books from both Korea and China. Books from both countries make assertions that historians of other nationalities would dispute.
Aceface’s statement about the location of Genghis Khan’s birthplace in sovereign Mongolia is accepted by North American historians. Even, for the sake of argument, Genghis Khan’s place of birth were located in what is now the Chinese province of inner Mongolia, that fact alone would not make him Chinese.
One common weakness shared by Chinese and Korean nationalists alike is that they superimpose modern national identities onto ancient peoples and cultures who didn’t have the same concept of being Chinese or Korean. If you could go back 800 years in time and ask Genghis Khan yourself “What (nationality) are you?” how do you think he would answer:
a) 我是中国人
b) монгол хїн
(I realize Mongolian wasn’t written in the Cyrillic alphabet back then, but I can’t cut and paste Mongolian script.)
I am not good in sarcasm…no shocking at all. Chinese Fenquings have problems and even raise issues on why government(education establishment) praise Nurhaci and Genghis Khan as their own since both these great “heros” were ruthless invaders that killed and raped Han people. It is my attempt to make a point how ridiculous it is to go around saying who and who is Chinese or Korean over 1000 years ago. Then again, Pawi cannot throw strikes so…
Genghis Khan probably wanted everyone to be greater Mogolians but unforuntaley his grandsons sinolized so there you go…
Enough said.
And Han peoples killed and raped each other throughout Chinese history, a fact even Chinese history books acknowledge in recounting the rise and fall of various dynasties, factionalism, and wars between neighboring states. At least Genghis Khan wasn’t a 汉奸 when he killed 汉族.
“Do you ever hear Chinese teaching their children Mongolia was our land thus we need to take it back someday?”
So let me try understand this. So what the hell was all the fuss about Tibet? You know the “Tibet is part of China”,”one China, one world” crap that saw hundreds of thousands of Chinese running amok all over Europe, North America, and Asia? Please now, give us a break.
It’s laughable to read that China is somehow all innocent and righteous.
If you look deep you can see the Chinese shame in being conquered so many times for so long.
Anyone who ruled, conquered or went to war with China is now a part of China today. Tibet, Manchuria, Mongolia, Turkestan.
Tibet is the origins of Buddhism. Most Asians countries share a buddhist culture or aspects of it.
Unfortunately for China this undermines their self-esteem and delusional identity that China was the source of everything.
So now Tibet is a part of China.
Buddhism originated in India, and the one that became widespread in China, Mahayama Buddhism, was brought there by what you would consider today as “white people”. Look up Kumarajiva, Tocharians, and Kushans.
66. One nation who went to war with China is conspicuously absent from your list. Anyone care to pitch in here?
@68, I know Buddhism originated from South India. I meant the branch of Buddhism prevalent in Asia. I forgot to mention mostly because in my head everything is in the context of Asia.
Buddhism existed in China before Kumarajiva.
The branch prevalent today is from migrants from India, who I hardly would consider as white folks.
stacked: um, no.
1. Buddhism didn’t originate in South India. Technically the Buddha was born in what is today Nepal and most Indian Buddhists would have been in the north.
2. The branch of Buddhism that is prevalent in East Asia has very little to do with Tibet. Tibetan-style Buddhism was adopted by the Mongols, but that’s about it.
3. At the time that Buddhism was transmitted from India to China Central Asia had a lot more Iranian-ish people then are there today (a lot of them were pushed out by Turkic peoples later on). The earliest missionaries of Buddhism to China would probably look a lot like modern Iranian people today (ie pretty white).
Wow this is volatile thread.
A few comments:
* I have a little Manchu blood and my father’s family is from Manchuria. In pre-Qing era Jurchens/Manchus weren’t considered Chinese, they were the barbarians north of the Great Wall. For most of Qing Dynasty, the ethnic Han Chinese did not consider Manchus to be Chinese either. Many of the anti-Qing revolutionaries fought under the Ming-restoration banner.
Manchu rulers were educated to be fluent in Manchurian, Chinese, and Mongolian. Bilingual (Manchu/Chinese) government records were used to the last days of Qing Dynasty. It’d be a mistake to think the Manchus were monolingual assimilated Chinese in the 19th century – that didn’t happen until the 20th.
* Mandarin is not an elegant sounding language. Most of the old Chinese poems read (rhyme?) much better in Southern Chinese dialects. It just so happens that invaders came via north to south route and they ended up using northern Chinese dialects. In comparison, the south was more “cultured” — I’m a “northerner” so I can say this without being arrogant. ;p
* Buddhism originated in ancient India in cultural, if not geographic sense. He may or may not have been born in present-day Nepal territory, but that doesn’t make him “Nepali”. It’s probably more accurate to say that Buddha was an Indian prince.
I mean NO disrespect to Buddhists — when the government of Nepal marks the EXACT SPOT where Buddha was born and turn the area into a tourist attraction, it makes me think of Greenland marking the spot where Santa Claus resides.
* Commenting on the territorial claim issue, the era of mass land grabbing is over and countries today can only bicker over what little game is left. A couple centuries ago it’d have been armies or fleets gunning each other. Today it’s small rocks in the ocean and who’s drilling what and where. I wonder what the sea birds think of humans fighting over their nesting sites?
* Your typical blog commentator or “netizen” who trolls sites like this and FR represents a small % of the population. Usually male, single, living with parents or surviving on instant ramen in a dorm/apartment. Angry young males are the negative stereotype. Hey I was there myself and vented plenty against anything, just part of growing up. Thankfully their (our/your?) opinion really doesn’t matter.
A rip on China aimed at no one here in particular, just inspired by thoughts on comment #66
“Anyone who ruled, conquered or went to war with China is now a part of China today. Tibet, Manchuria, Mongolia, Turkestan.”
Not so. The Chinese might be tough guys with the Buddist monks in Tibet or the tiny population of Inner Mongolia (with a bazillion Chinese they couldn’t even conquer the other 2.5 million Mongolians!), but on the big stage they are military duds, and have been for pretty much ever. It’s unfair to the French to have been stuck with the “losingest” label with a loser like China around, really.
The Vietnamese have periodically and savagely handed China its ass for centuries, the last time in the mid to late 70′s right after America left – military rumour has it they annihilated 2 entire Chinese divisions that had been posturing a few kilometres inside the Vietnamese border IN A FUCKING WEEK. (But c’mon, the Vietnamese pretty much hand every foreign army its ass – Khmers, Chinese, French, Americans..)
Next up, the Japanese, who have fought and easily pwned the Chinese several times, twice on Korean ground I think, and in the 1930′s actually occupying and ruling large parts of China.
How about the British drubbing the Chinese during the Opium wars? I mean, in the mid-19th century with none of the technology of today, some British ships and a ridiculously small number of troops compared to the size of China, from the other side of the world, humiliate China militarily.
Or for a larger example, the major powers – Germany, Russia, America, Japan, France, and England – absolutely humbling and defeating China during the 1905 Boxer rebellion, including the armies of all six countries seizing and looting Beijing?
I’m convinced that if the Korean yangban 1) weren’t such fucking lazy parasites on the ass of the Korean nation, and 2) hadn’t ended up so brainwashed by Confucian family symbolism convincing them that China was some sort of ‘elder’, they could have kicked China’s ass numerous times too a la the Vietnamese model.
No wonder we hear about the Chinese feeling humiliated – they have been, utterly! ‘The threat of China’ – pshaw! Come back and talk to us when you defeat someone bigger than non-violent Buddhist monks. Oh forgot, after 60 years you haven’t managed to do that yet.
#63
“Genghis Khan probably wanted everyone to be greater Mogolians but unforuntaley his grandsons sinolized so there you go… ”
No.Yuan Dynasty(or Dai On Ulus to Mongolians)had existed after there retleat to Mongolian plateu after their defeat to Zhu Yuanzhang in 1368.Dai On Ulus had existed until Mongolian Kurultai chosed a Manchu as their Khan in 1636.
So there were no “sinolized” grandsons of Chingghis Khan existed in history.
The thread keeps going still going…
#73
That is “national shame” of China where Chinese netizens were being reminded constantly..so Korean yangbans treated China as elders out of confucious value? You think? More of political reason that confucious value..Korea afterall had no choice (before Japan came along)
#74
I see..so they did not adapt to Han culture during the Yuan dynasty
The bloody nose that Vietnam gave China in the 1979 border conflict was probably one of the best things that could’ve happened to the PRC.
The short conflict showed that the people’s war doctrines was completed obsolete. The Maoist faction were humbled, while Deng’s reformist faction consolidated their position, and pushed forward with the Four Modernizations.
Deng favored improving relations with the west and importing technologies to modernize China’s industry. The Maoist faction opposed this, and had they not been humbled, China’s economic/industrial reforms may have started much later.
Often, being humble or humbled is a good thing.
Those who puff their chest at their ancestor’s accomplishments (“we built the Great Wall”) have done little themselves to be proud of. It’s the ones who lower their heads to study and work hard that will make something out of themselves.
A smart winner, is someone who leaves the competition ignorant in their own backward ways. When you brag about your success and rub it in, your competition will seek to learn your ways and eventually move in on your turf.
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