Responding to a column by our own Andy Jackson in the Korea Times, Kim Jin-hyun castigates our friend and colleague for being culturally ignorant:
Now I ask Mr. Jackson how much he knows about Korean culture. I know most Americans eat only steak, but Koreans eat most parts of a cow.
Korean food culture is closely related to the cow. Cows are not only a part of the family but also a sacrificial food for them.
Following unrestricted American beef imports, Korean citizens are afraid Korean food culture may be completely ruined.
Take that you ignorant American! American beef will destroy Korean food culture! I mean, you wouldn’t expect Koreans to start importing cheap low-grade kimchi from China, now would you?
Of course, the cultural argument still holds if you consider caving to China a part of Korean traditional culture.
Anyway, Kim needs to credit GNP chairman Kang Jae-sup for originating this argument during a June 5 meeting with US ambassador Sandy Vershbow. I’m sure the ambassador had to summon every diplomatic energy in his being not to crack up laughing.
Just for shits and giggles, though, I’d love to see a US lawmaker pull aside the Korean ambassador to the United States and explain to him that due to the importance of the automobile in American culture (and what’s more iconically American than the automobile?), we have little choice but to slap tariffs on Korean cars. After all, we can’t very well have our teenagers getting laid for their first time in the backseat of a Hyundai, can we?
105 Comments
Yes… by eating steak, my parent’s culture has been completely ruined…
Why can’t I get a whole article against me? At least this is a start.
damn….get ‘em robert. right on point.
also,
“I know most Americans eat only steak, but Koreans eat most parts of a cow.”
Oh like, hot dogs, hamburgers, taco bell meat? Americans dont eat those?
I guess Andy doesn’t know a lot about Korean culture, but Kim Jin-hyun is an expert of American cuisine (culture, since we are playing the “cuisine = culture game”)
On the bright side, had I have written the article, Kim Jin-hyun wouldn’t of used the “don’t you know Korean culture” argument and would of just simply called me a traitor.
Cows are a sacrificial animal in Korea? That’s a new one to me……. can’t say I’ve never seen an altar, or pasture at any of the temples or churches I’ve visited here in the last eight year here.
anyone?
It’s news to me… My grandparents were lucky to even see a cow in post war Korea. My understanding was that oxes were more common in old Korea due to their ability to be beasts of burden.
“I know most Americans eat only steak, but Koreans eat most parts of a cow.”
Speaking of cultural ignorance… Mr. Kim might be surprised to discover that some Americans have also been known to enjoy rice and fish, in addition to steak three times per day.
Andy, you’re not at Breen’s level yet (i.e. full article rebuttal by an English teacher), but with practice, I know you can get there. I’m pulling for you.
Cows are family now, American beef will destroy Korean culture?… I think I understand Korean comedy a little more now… When will America start sending rice here… I am sure that will destroy the Korean family structure.
Another ridiculously laughable attempt at rationalizing the madness.
Don’t forget that cows are part of the family! I know that I’ve seen many a cow in these apartment complex forests when I’ve visited…
So that’s why Americans are so fat compared to Koreans… The only thing they eat is steak,
The logic was so bad in that article I had to read it three times to understand that I could not possibly understand it.
Time to take an Aleve (I import them myself thank you very much).
Well, this Kim Jin-hyun obviously doesn’t know anything about EITHER culture.
Cows are a “sacrificial” animal (I expect she actually meant to say something closer to “sacred”, but neither her nor the editors caught the difference) about as much as Americans eat “only steak.” And yes, as probably most Koreans think, once a day, alongside hamburgers and pizza.
I, for one, was a pretty conservative American eater, hailing as I do from Ohio, but I did eat fish when I was a kid, and I probably had more beef brisket and tendons in Vietnamese restaurants in Oakland than I ever had eating a steak.
$3.50 bowls of pho were definitely more popular in the Bay Area, for example, than steak houses. Does that count as “American food?” Probably not, in her narrow, culturally essentialist mind, even though Americans eat more salsa than ketchup and there are enough “Americans” (read, in terms of most Koreans’ thinking, “white people”) eating Korean-style beef every day in Koreatowns all over the US to start a mad cow epidemic all on its own. Shit, with all the Koreans eating 꼬리곰탕 in the US and being all “genetically susceptible” to getting it, AGAIN — where are the cases of mad cow?
Where’s the beef?!
What she doesn’t realize is that there are people eating gomtang in Koreatowns, or all kinds of random ethnic foods in America, many of which are as “American” now as apple pie.
Waitaminnit — how much does an American eat apple pie, anyway? I definitely had more Pakistani butter chicken curry in my adult life than any apple fuckin’ pie.
I’m sick of this “we are unique in the world” bullshit even as the same people who tow this line of cultural ignorance — and that’s what it is, really — project their own country’s narrow food culture onto their impressions of other countries’ eating habits.
Koreans DO tend to eat certain foods every day, such as rice and kim chi, and yes, much of the national cuisine is based on the holy trinity of soy sauce, sesame oil, and red pepper powder — oh, and sugar.
But generally, if anything can be said about American cuisine, it’s that it is marked by variety, both in terms of the types of foods available — from tuna casserole to meatloaf to Sunday pot roast to quiche to lasagna to chicken kiev to rice pilaf to Cajun catfish to clam chowder to calimari chow mein to sushi to feta fucking cheese — as well as how they’re supposed to be eaten: most American households have a “rotation” of foods on at least a 2-week cycle, as we’d yell at Mom for cooking the same food every day, or even twice a week.
If anything, American food has gotten even more random and less monolithic as new ethnic groups have come in and the days of Mom-in-the-kitchen have passed for many of us.
And then there’s the mythology around kim chi as a “Korean” food. Sure, it IS, in terms of the food that Koreans like to eat, and which is uniquely Korean in its present form. But I use this example in my classes all the time as a prime example of a food that only exists as the result of the processes of globalization and international trade, since red peppers came from the New World (so, no glowing red foods before 1492, no matter what any culinary nationalist wants to believe), and wasn’t traded as far as East Asia until a couple hundred years later, when it was brought by traders through what we now call Japan. The Chinese cabbage Koreans call “baechu” is exactly that — Chinese — and started being eaten in Korea to make the kimchi we recognize today only from the fairly recent 18th century.
The idea of “unique food cultures” is about as stupid as “pure races” — but ignorant people such as Kim Jin-hyun don’t seem to know that.
This is just the kind of stupid ignorance and cultural chauvinism that gives Korea and Koreans such a bad name, and which pisses me off. I’d really like to know what special qualifications Kim Jin-hyun to be the culinary cultural historian for Korea, other than her genes and a maroon passport?
Because there are a lot of dumbass, culturally essentialist arguments bubbling up to the surface these days, causing people to say stupid-ass shit.
Easy target, but you highlight the less crucial parts of the article, which deal with the anger about how Lee conducted the deal. But even the parts you do highlight reveal certain assumptions within Korean culture. Kim assumes that Jackson doesn’t know that vCJD is easier to get for Koreans because of the parts of the animal that are consumed. I would assume that Jackson does know this but sees it as irrelevant because of the presumed low risk of contracting vCJD from American beef. The other parts of the letter are more interesting though. There’s the assumption that traditional agricultural practices in Korea might be at risk with a greater opening of the market to large scale agribusiness traders–fear of the “loss of culture.” Well, this is not all that different from the traditional American family farmer worried about the loss of the traditional farm culture in the states and being replaced by agribusiness and large-scale factory farming. Not phrased well on Kim’s part, not argued in a completely unelliptical way, but with a bit of ESL sensitivity, not incomprehensible nor as ludicrous as the posters make it out to be.
Not to mention a proper understanding of Korea’s post-colonial culture!
“Following unrestricted American beef imports, Korean citizens are afraid Korean food culture may be completely ruined.”
Jeezus izn’t Christ!! You gotta be kidding me with this?
There is a Western Fast Food joint on every block in the major cities, there is at least 50% Western junk food in all of the convenience stores, and there are more pizzerias in this country then there are Kalbi restaurants!!
US beef will destroy the Korean food culture….HA! At least Koreans are becoming fat mofos from their “food culture” just like us 24/7 steak eaters.
Well, as long as it was only a little bit ludicrous.
#13 “From tuna casserole to meatloaf to Sunday pot roast to quiche to lasagna to chicken kiev to rice pilaf to Cajun catfish to clam chowder to calimari chow mein to sushi to feta f$%king cheese”
Oh really? That all sounds gastronomically tempting
And I thought Americans only ate Big Macs, hot dogs and Whoppers!
Dude’s obviously never heard of a hot dog before. Or lard. Or gelatin. Or a Rocky Mountain oyster (well okay, maybe the last is not so common)…
Holy shit I’m CRAVING fried chicken!!!
You’re getting a tad bit unhinged by all of this, don’t you think, Koehler? Are the slights against the American cow revealed in the protests so personal for you that you can’t let them pass? Did you have some kind of bovine becoming in a past life?
“Post-colonial culture” — I’m very glad you brought that one up again because one of the characteristics of post-colonial societies is a kind of widespread knee-jerk hysteria at times about imagined or real slights, imagined or real, fair or unfair trade agreements, as well as the perception and perhaps the reality of former colonial masters getting a better deal than the locals. These are automatic as well as metonymic alignments with historical realities. Sorry if I come off as lecturing. I’m only trying to explain my perspective here. But what’s interesting for me is that often these generalized manifestations of hysterical symptoms transfer to those who would ridicule them, and the expat North American (most of the time anyway) reproduces the symptom. And then you have a whole slew of mostly silly hysterical comments about a largely forgettable letter in the newspaper written probably by a college student. But hey, this is your den and if you want to agitate about the largely inconsequential, be my guest.
Celadon says: Not phrased well on Kim’s part, not argued in a completely unelliptical way, but with a bit of ESL sensitivity…
Robert says: Not to mention a proper understanding of Korea’s post-colonial culture!
Robert, what is going on with this stalking of your commenters. Its very strange. Are you trying to ridicule Celadon? Do you really dislike hyphenated phrases such as post-colonial society, de-hyphenated adverb, hanbok-wearing
freak
* I’m sorry for the strikethrough joke, it was intended in humor. Please don’t ban me
“But hey, this is your den and if you want to agitate about the largely inconsequential, be my guest.”
Words you no doubt share with the candle holders as well, right?
yeah swlee, keep insulting the host!
Seriously. We’ll all like the results.
Seriously, I could totally go for some BBQ or Kyochon right now!
Celadon:
Yes!! please….oh wise and knowledgeable one, do impart to us an understanding of what it is that can be considered to be ‘of consequence.’ I so desire to be further enlightened about the intricacies of “automatic…[and] metonymic alignments with historical realities.”
You don’t come off as lecturing. You come off as a tool. I wouldn’t go to one of your lectures. I dislike hubris.
I understand Korean food culture.
1. Take some food
2. Cover food in red stuff
3. Eat the red food
4. Take a dump from hell, caused by all the red stuff.
I wonder what colour the food is today?
This:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....ent-164341
But I guess we should just excuse this coming as it does from someone whose knowledge of things like praxis seems to stem from the pamphlet Marxism that took root in Korea during the dictatorships and never understand that, to wit, the failure to distinguish the masses from the “bourjois” [sic], and who thinks Chomsky is a composer. It’s inevitable™, after all.
Whoa, I’ve been here 11 years and have never seen and cow sacrificing rituals!
Let’s get one going like the ending scene of “Apocalypse Now”!
Beer & bonfire, too.
*In my 11 years here, I’ve never seen the end of the long line of people who throw up the wall of “It’s our unique culture, don’t you understand it? You should respect Korea!” when presented with well explained examples of contradictions, inconsistencies, outright lies, and ridiculous brainless silliness that goes on in some Korean beliefs and behaviors.
It seems there is just no arguing with “This is the Korean way and we will continue with these beliefs and behaviors without question. If you question them, then you are not respecting Korea, so I hate you!”.
You can’t win against that kind of unquestioning nationalistic stubborness!
I’m pretty sure all those 100% beef hot dogs I ate as a kid weren’t made from the steak parts of American cows.
Having been a former meatworker in the UK during the 90s (exempts me from giving blood, yay!) I can assure you they most certainly aren’t.
Mad cow disease is an imaginary problem in Korea. You have a much better chance of pulling a Donnie Darko and getting creamed by a falling jet engine. But that fact hasn’t seemed to factor into this thing at all.
If Koreans want something to protest (and it seems they do), why not protest all the drunk driving in Korea? Cops regularly camp out at night on the intersection by my place, and I couldn’t say how many times I’ve seen and heard them wrestling some drunk that they’ve stopped into a squad car.
Much better chance of getting killed by a drunk, no matter what you eat.
You sure you’re not one of those protesters who gather outside US bases saying “Yankee go home” only until the US mentions they might get out of Dodge, then you’re back saying “please don’t go, we still need you”. Cos you sure sound like it.
If you’re going to insult the host, go ahead do it. Just don’t then grovel saying “sorry, I didn’t mean it” as you come across a weak piss-ant doing crap like that.
“Korean citizens are afraid Korean food culture may be completely ruined.” Lotteria has already seen to that.
“I know most Americans eat only steak, but Koreans eat most parts of a cow.”
What? Since when did we Americans stop eating ribs and rump roast?
“Third, as a CEO, he considered Korean people for their economic value, which means he hadn’t considered their cultural and social lifestyles. He has continued to do this.”
What did you expect? You voted for a greasy greedy businessman, you got a greasy greedy businessman, whose staff apparently doesn’t know how to read English. What were you expecting, an Obama?
President Lee has apologized to the nation. He said the candle light protests by the citizens have made him look back into his conscience. He apologized to the citizens for not comfortably serving the citizens. His words.
It’s unfortunate and sickening that he apologized to the people who are misinformed, and to the people who are using this for their own agendas. The same people have already dismissed the apology and have warned that they will continue to protest. This apology only did one thing - legitimized the lies and made the mad cow people look like they were right in the beginning.
I’m struggling to come up with another recent example of a post-colonial society acting this silly on such a large scale. Certainly not one with universal literacy and education.
Again, cm, again.
That’s from the May 22 edition of the Financial Times.
“Again, cm, again.”
The first one was a weak one that hardly any lefties noticed. This one was much more stronger in tone. It should put the rest the protests right?
Shenanigans!
Hyundai-driving American teenagers ain’t gettin’ laid.
Is this Korean culture too, the lack of respect for the law? Is anarchy Korean culture too?
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....90011.html
Korean Culture states that if LMB would bow 100 times to the people while apologizing then the people would forgive him. Unfortunately, he only bowed twice during his televised apology.
And, this Joseph Winder thinks Bush/Washington “Fiddles while Seoul burns.”
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw.....m?ID=19096
I say LMB needs to bow 98 more times on T.V.
Andy, did you reply to this guy by chance?
Great post and comment from the Met as well.
Great post and comment from the Met as well.
It just occurred to me. All the US has to do is use Chinese American negotiators when dealing with Korea.
Are cows native to Korea?
I’m still not sure how ‘Spam’ has continued to get away unscathed. Doesn’t that smell of post war food aid?
Jackson does’t “know” that because the Korean media misrepresentation you’ve just restated is incorrect. Koreans carry genes making them susceptible to sporadic CJD, not vCJD contracted from eating BSE-infected beef. This link explains the differences between sporatic CJD and vCJD, noting that sporatic CJD has no known cause.
And what traditional agricultural practices would those be? Korea banned feeding cow parts to other cows in 1995 and finally got around to banning other forms of animal protein, like blood, at the end of 2007 in order to clean up its application to the OIE. Ground-up fish parts are still allowable. In addition to animal protein in feed, the OIE also expressed concerns to Korea about the slaughter of sick cows. In my many trips into the countryside, I never saw cows lying under trees in fields or grazing on grass like I see in the countryside where I live in the US. I only ever saw cows confined to barns, eating out of troughs. The main difference between the Korean beef industry and the US beef industry isn’t in the feed or handling, but in the numbers. The largest US feedlot operations have as many as 100,000 head of cattle. There is probably nothing nearly that large in Korea.
Actually, there is a big difference you are missing, Celadon. American locavores like myself believe in consumer choice. We show our support for our local farmers by putting money directly into their hands. Some of us push for stricter regulation of farming through our elected representatives. We do not block city streets nor march on the White House demanding that President Bush shut down all factory farms.
I NEED MORE COWBELL
Three things I hate hearing in an argument:
1) “That makes you worse than Hitler/Nazis…” (aka Godwin’s Law)
2) “You just don’t understand what it’s like being _______…” (fill in with sex/age/race/ethinicity/religion/what have you)
3) “It’s God’s will…how can we possibly understand?”
No worries, Yonsei types have to keep up with their reputation of obnoxiousness…
Spot on! Give that man a cigar!
I think you misread the first quote Sonagi. The statement was about Koreans being more susceptible to BSE because of the parts of the cow they eat, not because of anything to do with their PrP structure. However, saying that Jackson probably does know this is ridiculous since Americans do consume just as much of the cow as Koreans.
Guess that explains why the Irish and the Eastern Europeans are so hot-headed… Now if we could just explain why the Swiss are such assholes… (just kidding guys! I love the Swiss!)
Let’s see…Westerners eat chit’lins, haggis, head cheese, and put tails and snouts in hot dogs. I will argue we use far more of the cow than Koreans.
Also, since when did Korea all of a sudden become a Cow-centric culture where this cow was supposedly lionized? Koreans just making stuff up for whitey as they go along…
You’re correct, KrZ. I did misread the argument, which is irrelevant anyway because the present agreement which Koreans are demanding be renegotiated allows only boneless beef, I believe. As in the past, Koreans will certainly inspect each shipment very carefully for the tiniest bone fragments. You are also correct that not only do people in America eat more parts of the cow than steak (my local supermarkets are proof of this).
You’re correct, KrZ. I did misread the argument, which is irrelevant anyway because the present agreement which Koreans are demanding be renegotiated allows only boneless beef, I believe. As in the past, Koreans will certainly inspect each shipment very carefully for the tiniest bone fragments. You are also correct that people in America eat more parts of the cow than steak (my local supermarkets are proof of this).
Chitterlings are usually made from pork… And haggis is mostly sheep. Good effort, tho.
I see that bone-in and boneless parts from cows under 30 months were to be accepted under the new agreement. In any case, the implied argument that Koreans would be more at risk by eating bone-in American beef still doesn’t wash because only three vCJD cases have appeared in the US, and all three were likely contracted outside the country.
What goes into beef broth? Hot dogs? Luncheon meat? And so on.
Liver and onions, beef tongue, sweetbreads, veal … do Koreans eat these things? Just try explaining veal to a Korean butcher, much less buying it.
Funny how so many Koreans are so sure they are experts on the Western diet … what hubris.
“Making things up for whitey as they go along.” LOL
That’s odd. I would never have suspected as much while standing in line behind the ajummas at the South Post Commissary, with their carts heaped with American steaks, bacon, sausage, hamburger, and hot dogs. Anyone who has worked in CID, JAG, or AAFES in Korea — or who has ever had command sponsorship — knows (a) that the ration control system is laughable and (b) that the black market is both substantial and well-established.
I’d love to see a study of how much of Korea’s “restaurant-grade” beef was actually American. The Korean beef I ate had about the same flavor and texture as a tractor tire.
“Korean beef I ate had about the same flavor and texture as a tractor tire.”
They could have been Australian or US beef, disguised as Korean beef.
If Kim Jin-hyun had not mentioned the culture part, and approached things in a more logical manner, he would have written a good letter to counter Andy Jackson’s article.
I also read Andy’s article and yes some of the things he said I agree with but part of me wonders whether he didn’t look deep enough and was quick to generalize the candlelight crowd.
“If Kim Jin-hyun had not mentioned the culture part, and approached things in a more logical manner, he would have written a good letter to counter Andy Jackson’s article.”
So what you are saying is that if the writer wrote a completely different letter, it might have been good?
Um, I don’t think we want to derail this thread just so we can discuss the quality of letters to the editor published by Korea Times.
BTW, I like your work!
There seems to be some uncertainty about Kim Jin hyun’s sex but I’ll trust Metro’s take that its a she.
She would have done well to use this quote in response to Jackson’s Twain.
“Being American is to eat a lot of beef steak, and boy, we’ve got a lot more beef steak than any other country, and that’s why you ought to be glad you’re an American. And people have started looking at these big hunks of bloody meat on their plates, you know, and wondering what on earth they think they’re doing.”
Because obviously Jackson doesn’t know his Kurt Vonnegut.
She should also have quoted DMC’s “Gotta protect the people, safety first.” Cause I really doubt Jackson has an easy familiarity with hip-hop culture either.
Indeed. Major department store supermarkets didn’t carry illicit goods, but the mom-and-pop stands outside them did. Some friends and I always wondered if, apart from the occasional token arrests, the US military turned a blind eye to the black market because it was a way of introducing Korean consumers to American products that were otherwise illegal to import, thus creating demand that might open the market.
#50, Sonagi, irrelevant or not, the Nature link you post doesn’t work. I would like to take a look though. Can you post the journal name, volume and page number reference? It looks from the link as if it might be volume 13 of something. Is it an article or just a letter?
Google Koreans, sporadic cjd, genes and it’s the first link.
And it’s the whole article, not just an abstract, as you’ll see.
USFK wouldn’t have any jurisdiction over the shops and their customers, only the DOD personnel involved in getting the good off base; and catching the latter made up a big percentage of the MP/CID blotter, despite its being an offense that was (deservedly) low on the totem pole of intr-service criminal justice concerns. The real party in interest was ROKGOV which could have closed down all the offending shops in an instant had it any genuine interest - which it didn’t because toleration of the black market was a way of letting a little steam out of the rice cooker created by the general policy of discouraging imports in favor of import substitution strategies and later channeling forced savings into the industrialization for export drive.
This articles reflects the high IQ of Koreans. They are soooo much smarter than everyone else and this proves it.
This article I mean
“The real party in interest was ROKGOV which could have closed down all the offending shops in an instant had it any genuine interest - which it didn’t because toleration of the black market was a way of letting a little steam out of the rice cooker created by the general policy of discouraging imports in favor of import substitution strategies and later channeling forced savings into the industrialization for export drive.”
Not attacking the theory Sperwer, but my head was spinning by the end of it for lack of commas. Seriously, thats the kind of breathless rant I strive for. Nice work.
You forgot to breath swlee?! You must have gone to SNU, the Harvard of Korea!
Thanks? but, I’ll, leave, the, rants, to, you.
enough commas to constitute affirmative action for your reading comprehension?
Sonagi #72, thanks for the link/hint.
The article I think you are refering to is: Journal of Human Genetics, 49, 319-324 (2004), `Polymorphisms of the prion potein gene (PRNP) in a Korean population’
Here’s how I read that paper.
First of all, page 320, they say
“All cases of variant CJD are homozygous for methionine at codon 129.” the reference is Collinge et al. 1996 (I haven’t checked the reference…yet).
They tested 529 healthy Korean volunteers. Table 1 shows the results, page 323.
In the Palmer et al. study of 106 Britishers, 37% were met/met at codon 129, that is 37% were homozygous for methionine at codon 129 (and therefore susceptible to vCJD?).
In the present study, 94% of the Koreans were met/met at codon 129, that is homozygous for methionine at codon 129.
By a quick extrapolation that would seem to suggest (modulo eating habits and the like) that if Koreans chowed down on BSE beef like the British did back in the 1980’s, roughly 600 would die of vCJD, rather than the 200 odd in the UK, the population sizes being roughly the same.
Don’t worry, none of the authors are at SNU. One of them is called Richard Carp and he works in New York.
In the abstract they write “To our knowledge, the R2 octarepeat deletion has never been found in people from countries other than Korea.” That’ll be the fan death then
Sonagi #72, maybe you are talking instead about this article;
MOLECULAR AND IMMUNOHISTOKEMICAL ANALYSES OF PRION PROTEIN GENE(PRNP) IN KOREAN PATIENTS WITH CREUTZFELDT-JACOB DISEASE(CJD). The Annual Meetings of Federation of the Korean Gerontological Societies for 1996 [1996] p.204-205
The lead author seems to be the same as the paper above but it was published 8 years earlier and only looks at two cases.
By the way, who is mizarfive? They seem to have made a similar comment to your one on the Korea Times comment board. Maybe mizarfive read your post?
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/ww.....sIdx=26038
Hello? Sonagi? Any comment on the above two posts?
I’m basically claiming that your statement in #50 is wrong, demonstrably wrong and demonstrably wrong using your own sources (but I’m still not entirely sure which source you are referring to).
We’ve all seen the dangers that factually incorrect statements can pose for discussions, particularly when those statements are picked up from the internet by others (we’ve perhaps already seen this with mizarfive). So I think we should clear this up.
At least a comment telling me to get a life would demonstrate that you’ve noticed my concerns.
Eujin,
I did not see your comment from June 20. If a thread gets bumped down because of lack of comments, I may not notice. I read about 7-8 blogs/forums daily. Some blogs/forums provide an comment email function, which makes it easier to follow responses. This blog does not.
I referred to this studyIf the link doesn’t work, it’s Polymorphism at 3′ UTR +28 of the prion-like protein gene is associated with sporadic Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease in European Journal of Human Genetics. It appears to be the same paper that you are quoting from. Only the short form is available for free on the internet, so I cannot verify your passages, but I’ll take you at your word.
The short form only ever referred to sporadic CJD, not vCJD. That is why I cited the paper as evidence that Koreans are genetically susceptible to sporadic CJD, not vCJD.
That’s one of the benefits of having a comment section. Unfortunately, this one gets cluttered with Korean/gyopo/expat bashing, but commenters like yourself make the comment section worth reading. Mizar5’s only contributions to the Hole are negative generalizations about Koreans.
The topic of Korean genes and CJD first gained national attention in that infamous PD Diary story, which performed the same quick extrapolation you did, stating that Koreans were 2-3 times more susceptible. Kim Yong-sun, a Hallym University medical professor who is now in hiding after challenging PD Diary, had this to say about MM genes and CJD risk:
from the Mao Zedong thread:
At most, I misinterpreted a study whose short form only was available on the internet. It appears by Kim Yong-sun’s remarks that many, many people have misinterpreted that study, including you, for Dr. Kim does not agree with your “quick extrapolation.” Misinterpreting information is not a lie. Writing a fake news story and passing it off as real is.
I should clarify that the quote about MM genes and CJD risk did not come directly from Dr. Kim but from the Chosun story about him. I’ll search Korean language sources to see what he has actually said about the claims in the PD Diary report.
“Mizar5’s only contributions to the Hole are negative generalizations about Koreans.”
Gee, thanks, Sonagi. I tell the truth drawing on my decades of experience in Korea and provide a personal historical perspective along with insights into the culture that come from having lived as a Korean and an American. When you reach that status, and are able to generalize from what you’ve learned, I hope someone doesn’t do you the same disservice of dismissing the benefit of your knowledge and experience.
I am aware of statements you have made about your background to imply expert status. Whatever your background, it does not disprove my statement that you have made numerous negative generalizations about Koreans. I don’t recall you ever making a positive statement about Koreans in general.
I have fifteen years of experience interacting with Koreans in three countries, and many other commenters have varied and extensive experience interacting with Koreans in different environments. Unlike some bloggers/commenters like Robert Koehler, Andrei Lankov, Tom Coyner, Joshua Stanton, Jeffery Hodges, Michael Hurt, and Brian Deutsch among others, you and I remain anonymous to the general readership although my real name is known to Robert and commenters here. I could use my real name, but it wouldn’t raise my credibility much since I’m not a scholar and have never published anything related to Korea or China in a widely circulated newspaper, magazine, or journal.
Without verification, readers are free to believe or disbelieve background claims made by you, me, and others posting anonymously based on whether a commenter’s statements jibe with background claims and one’s own knowledge and experiences.
correction:
“…although my real name is known to Robert and commenters here.”
should read:
“…although my real name is known to Robert and a few commenters here.”
OK Sonagi, I get the idea. Do you then consider yourself a “better contributor” because you don’t like the fact that I’m critical?
Certainly, you’re entitled to your opinion, even if the disdainful comment would appear to belie its objectivity.
Perhaps you may not see a need for a dissenting viewpoint to balance out the historical distortions and to provide a perspective that goes back to the Park Cheong Hee administration, shared by people like Tom Coyner and myself who were here making contributions to Korean society before the current mass influx of foreigners to Korea began.
But simply because you haven’t seen my positive comments about Korea, this hardly justifies a hasty generalization. I have indeed written about the good things that were happening in the 1970s and 1980s. I have contrasted those times to to the general disarray I find Korean society to be in today.
Whatever my analyses of Korean society, one thing I have not resorted to is argumentum ad hominem against individual contributors. Regardless of what I think of peoples’ respective viewpoints, I have restricted my arguments to the content of others’ assertions rather than resort to name calling.
Given your 15 years experience working with Koreans, you should know better than many here how the most effective foreigners here have to suck it up and be generally complimentary to Koreans. Yes, even Korean Americans need to do this. Since not everyone is as courageous as Jerry Beavers, a forum like this is an invaluable means of allowing people the freedom to express the things they are prohibited from expressing in general society.
I take the time to write because I care. I don’t write ignorant comments like “Korea sucks” but provide an inside analysis of the problems, their causes and possible solutions, pointing to what I see as a right direction
Regardless of whether you agree with my analyses, I am frankly surprised that you, who generally seems dispassionate, would mischaracterize my analyses as “limited to negative generalizations about Korea.” I certainly will not return the insult or seek to defame you based on my disagreements with things you have said. I prefer to compliment you on your contributions, positive or negative and value your insights, as others have valued mine. I am only interested in helping people, regardless of nationality or race, to see the issues outside their usual framework.
Now that that’s out of the way, let me respond to Eujin that I indeed considered Sonagi’s comments in dealing with the CJD issue, and I await the outcome of your interaction with her. My interest is truth over propaganda and I would like to see the issues properly elucidated.
OK Sonagi, I get the idea. Do you then consider yourself a “better contributor” because you don’t like the fact that I’m critical?
Certainly, you’re entitled to your opinion, even if the disdainful comment would appear to belie its objectivity.
Perhaps you may not see a need for a dissenting viewpoint to balance out the historical distortions and to provide a perspective that goes back to the Park Cheong Hee administration, shared by people like Tom Coyner and myself who were here making contributions to Korean society before the current mass influx of foreigners to Korea began.
But simply because you haven’t seen my positive comments about Korea, this hardly justifies a hasty generalization. I have indeed written about the good things that were happening in the 1970s and 1980s. I have contrasted those times to to the general disarray I find Korean society to be in today.
Whatever my analyses of Korean society, one thing I have not resorted to is argumentum ad hominem against individual contributors. Regardless of what I think of peoples’ respective viewpoints, I have restricted my arguments to the content of others’ assertions rather than resort to name calling.
Given your 15 years experience working with Koreans, you should know better than many here how the most effective foreigners here have to suck it up and be generally complimentary to Koreans. Yes, even Korean Americans need to do this. Since not everyone is as courageous as Jerry Beavers, a forum like this is an invaluable means of allowing people the freedom to express the things they are prohibited from expressing in general society.
I take the time to write because I care. I don’t write ignorant comments like “Korea sucks” but provide an inside analysis of the problems, their causes and possible solutions, pointing to what I see as a right direction
Regardless of whether you agree with my analyses, I am frankly surprised that you, who generally seems dispassionate, would mischaracterize my analyses as “limited to negative generalizations about Korea.” I certainly will not return the insult or seek to defame you based on my disagreements with things you have said. I prefer to compliment you on your contributions, positive or negative and value your insights, as others have valued mine. I am only interested in helping people, regardless of nationality or race, to see the issues outside their usual framework.
Now that that’s out of the way, let me respond to Eujin that I indeed considered Sonagi’s comments in dealing with the CJD issue, and I await the outcome of your interaction with her. My interest is truth over propaganda and I would like to see the issues properly elucidated.
Oops, I apologize for the double entry!
@Mizar:
Let me repeat the last paragraph of my previous comment addressed to you:
@Eujin and Mizar5,
I located a June 10 airport Q&A with Dr. Kim Yong-sun who makes clear how his study should not be misinterpreted with regard to Koreans’ genetic risk of vCJD.
I still fail to see the relevence of the statement. I believe we are all communicating in good faith here.
BTW, did you have a look at the linked story quoting Dr. Kim? No need to wait for Eujin’s response. You and read and judge for yourself about the veracity of claims that Dr. Kim’s study demonstrates that Koreans are genetically susceptible to vCJD.
I see so far is the same old comment that this is just one factor and by itself is not all that meaninful:
“유전자가 질병 발생의 중요한 한 요인이지만 유전자 하나만으로 인간 광우병에 잘 걸린다고 단정적으로 얘기하기는 어렵다”고 말했다.”
Then I see the following which seems to support your comments:
김 교수팀의 논문은 어느 나라나 산발적으로 발생하는 크로이츠펠트 야코프병(sCJD)을 대상으로 한 연구이기 때문에 인간 광우병(vCJD)과 직접 연관이 없다는 주장도 있는데.
“우리나라에는 광우병 환자가 없으니까 sCJD로 연구할 수밖에 없다. 둘다 프리온이 병을 일으키는 것 아니냐(병이 발생하는 원인은 같다는 의미로 답변).”
“인간 광우병(vCJD)과 직접 연관이 없다는 주장도 있는데.”
I’m puzzled why Eujin takes issue with your statements on the issue.
I see that you comprehend Korean well enough to pick out a couple of relevant statements. Good.
You yourself have also made statements about Korean genes and vCJD on another forum, the Korea Times:
You cut and pasted text from comment #50 and didn’t even cite your source! That’s called plagiarism. Tsk, tsk.
I hate when I forget to close a tag!
Ah, so you attribute your passive aggressive aspersions to the fact that you were not properly credited for your comments. Many apologies, but there is a word limit at the Korean Times.
…and in any event, I would assume that you hold the truth to be more important than ego.
No passive aggression. I’ve been explicit in my dislike of your use of implied expert status to make repeated negative generalizations of contemporary Korean society, making such comments on this blog a few times prior to Eujin’s bringing your cut and paste comment to my attention.
Actually, if you prefer to use innuendo to cast aspersions on a person than deal with the substance of the person’s comments, I’d be comfortable characterizing that as passive aggressive.
But, if that’s what you enjoy doing, knock yourself out.
Statements like this comment, this one, and this one
are difficult to respond to because they are personal perceptions and cannot be proven or disproven. This is the “subtance” of your comments that I am dealing with when I criticize your comments as negative generalizations. Facts or opinions supported by facts can be verfied or refuted. Personal perceptions cannot. Your perceptions reflect yourself and your experiences. My perceptions reflect myself and my experi