In terms of allies I’d want, North Korea ranks just below Burma, Zimbabwe and Sudan.
I’ve long felt a major problem with US foreign policy is not our lack of “allies,” but rather our surplus of “allies,” many complete douche bags of marginal strategic value to whom we’ve nonetheless committed ourselves politically and sometimes militarily.
Anyway, respected (I don’t mean that sarcastically — I do think he does some great work) Korea scholar Bruce Cumings — in that Oliver Stone school of journalism (stuff like, “American commanders in the South have long worried about a war accidentally breaking out through a cycle of preemption and counter-preemption, and retired commanders of our forces in Korea were privately appalled by the new doctrine”) for which we love him — tells us that the difficulties in Korea-US relations and the post 2002 spike in anti-Americanism was due to “Bushism” and that we have the opportunity to gain a neutral or allied North Korea. Read it in its entirety — here’s just the conclusion:
The U.S. could have its cake and eat it, too, President Kim thought, because Pyongyang would not object to the continued stationing of American troops in the South if the U.S. normalized relations with the DPRK.
Washington could lose an enemy and gain a neutral North Korea if not a friend or an ally against China, against a revived Russia, and as a check on Japan’s future course.
Bill Richardson, once a close friend of the Clintons who dramatically endorsed Barack Obama at a critical point in the 2008 presidential primaries, traveled to North Korea in April 2007 and reported on his return that North Korea sees itself “eventually as an ally of the United States; in other words, as an ally against China. They see themselves as playing a strategic role as a buffer between the U.S. and China.”
It is more likely that Pyongyang hopes to play the U.S. off against China, much as it did Moscow and Beijing in the long years of the Cold War.
There is no way to know if this new thinking has had an impact on President Bush, but it is a logical American strategy for 21st-century Northeast Asia, just as the 2007 Summit etched a new political economy for our time. In any case a bizarre sequence of events has placed George W. Bush closer to Kim Dae Jung’s Sunshine Policy than to his own North Korea policies in the period 2002-2006. May he will even shake hands with “evildoer” Kim Jong Il before he leaves office. If so, well: better late than never.
I’m not even sure I want South Korea as an “ally,” let alone the North. If Pyongyang wants to play someone off China like it did with the Soviets during the Cold War (i.e., bilk both parties for tons of aid while giving little in return), let them play the South Koreans or the Japanese. I have no problem with shaking hands with an evildoer if vital national interests dictate — we allied with Stalin against Hitler, after all — but if it’s not necessary, why do it? Nobody’s running to Harare to shake Bob Mugabe’s hand, or to Yangon to shake the ruling gangsters’ hands down there (unless it’s to beg for relief aid to be let in). North Korea is a humanitarian disaster that has become a “security threat” because we’ve given it far too much respect — with 27,000 troops in South Korea, for starters — than it deserves.
66 Comments
Poor Korea. lol
Straight off the bat, I have to disclose that I think Bruce Cumings is a despicable “scholar” who deserves a royal beating for his slanders of the US Army and his country in the service of his distorted “history”.
But I have to agree with him about the potential North Korea has as a US “ally” — of the resentful, manipulative and unreliable kind that the South Koreans have been lo these many years. The US military could indeed pull out of South Korea and base up North.
But this could only happen in the case that the regime up North were nominally no longer Communist (recognizing, of course, Koreans’ innate appetite both for oppressive, totalitarian social orders and socialist economic systems, we need not insist on democracy or even justice) and not controlled by Kim Jong Il or his descendants. If Kim were to die of a sudden case of lead poisoning, and the Korea Workers’ Party were to dress itself up as some democratic-reformist outfit, I’m sure the same American fools who buy Koreans’ “strategic geopolitical location” nonsense will be asking themselves Why not?
Interesting post, thanks Robert, and not even the faintest odour of cattle or candlewax.
Bound to be, er-herm, contentious, but I’ve always found Cumings’ work to be thoughtful and punchily written. “Revising post-revision” anyone? Not only that, but as an undergrad in the UK, writing a 10,000 word ‘thesis’ on the DPRK, when I spontaneously decided a few quotes from Mr Cumings might be handy, I wrote to the guy and he replied in something like 30 minutes. A fuck of a lot quicker than my useless supervisor. (Two weeks, the lazy sod.) Thanks Bruce, You da man. I appreciated that.
Incidentally, and off topic, what is it with the Japanese abductee obsession? 20 years prior to the abduction of less than 20 people, Japan was ‘abducting’ truck loads of sex slaves. Moral relativism… nah, just clear why the DPRK can quite easily tell Japan to fuck off with the closest to a clean conscience you can get while your people starve.
“I’ve long felt a major problem with US foreign policy is not our lack of “allies,” but rather our surplus of “allies,” many complete douche bags of marginal strategic value whatsoever to whom we’ve nonetheless committed ourselves politically and sometimes militarily.”
I agree. Is it worth it to support regimes like Egypt, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia - no name only three - who are not only questionable allies, but fine examples of rotten dictatorships? Supporting these turds undermines the credibility of the United States, which is ultimately a very bad thing.
“strategic geopolitical location” nonsense?
Nonsense? Really? Pull out U.S. troops and you’d see how much “nonsense” it is as Japan, China and Russia scramble for influence..
Heaven forbid we should lose influence in Korea to Japan, China or Russia. What will the American people do then?
What is the value of an ally, who is sure to backstab US?
Look at the history of nuclear development in North Korea. US and NK agree on freezing nuclear development in NK, for which US gives cash or some aid, and then NK breaks the agreement. US gives in, forgives the breach and gives another aid, which is greeted by another breach of agreement.
You cannot ally with a liar.
Regarding post #3, what does Bruce Cumings “da man” say about Korea’s comfort women?
Yes, North Korea could tell Japan to “fuck off,” but then she would not get her $10 billion, would she?
“Heaven forbid we should lose influence in Korea to Japan, China or Russia. What will the American people do then?” Get more involved in Iran? I mean, oil prices can’t go up that much more can they?^ Stay at home? Relocate to Kosovo? (That’d be handy. I think we know the EU can’t handle that area too well..) take your pick.
8# I think he says this “The girls chosen for this and I use the word girls in the literal sense 12, 13, 14 year old girls were told they were going to serve the Emperor in some capacity often the best student in the class was told she was going to serve the Emperor in some way and the next thing you know she was being raped by 40 or 50 soldiers a day.” which sums it up I guess.
And yeah, real politik is a bitch. I’m sure they’d bite the abductee bait in a second for 10 billion if it hadn’t blown up in their faces like nothing else last time…
“Straight off the bat, I have to disclose that I think Bruce Cumings is a despicable “scholar” who deserves a royal beating for his slanders of the US Army and his country in the service of his distorted “history”.”
Oh diddums, somebody shat on your medals.
It does not take a left wing scholar to disgrace the US military or the US, both have proven equally capable of disgracing themselves. I too want to live in a world where the US fights for peace and democracy, and little sugarplum fairies scratch my itchy scrotum on demand. But we don’t.
Cumings was important in bringing a more partial account of the history of US involvement here to the attention of the mainstream English speaking audience. Get over it.
Cumings is indeed on some downward spiral of senile dementia if this blathering about North Korea becoming an American ally is anything to go by.
And why oh why does anyone put any merit in 2nd-hand musings supposedly said by Kim Jong-Il passed along by Kim DaeJung? Oh, he told me North Korea would not object to American troops here…blah blah blah, another senile old man hearing what he wanted to hear. North Korea has objected to American troops every day, go read the lunatic prose on the KCNA website. I mean, North Korea objects to the presence of non-Korean humans on the planet Earth, for chrissakes.
Likely what happened was that KDJ talked generally about American troops in the South and KJI grunted, nodded and gave his wine glass a tilt. ‘Ah, he agrees with me!’ thought DaeJung eagerly, and so another urban legend is started.
“The girls chosen for this and I use the word girls in the literal sense 12, 13, 14 year old girls ”
Well,I have to say Cummings is indeed a despicable “scholar”
“what is it with the Japanese abductee obsession? 20 years prior to the abduction of less than 20 people, Japan was ‘abducting’ truck loads of sex slaves.”
1)Because it’s more than 20 people who were abducted.
2)Most of the comfort women were not exactly considered as being”abducted”,they were “contracted”.
3)I felt the same way about America treats Vietnam in the 80’s with all the faux MIA ventures.
“just clear why the DPRK can quite easily tell Japan to fuck off with the closest to a clean conscience you can get while your people starve.”
Not anymore.The cabinet minister just had press conference and Pyongyang had agreed to turn us over the members of Japanese Red Army and now considers “the abduction case is not closed”.Tokyo in return will ease the sanction and give them minimum humanitarian aid in return.
I don’t have much time for Bruce Cummings. You could argue that he offers an alternative viewpoint, that he’s a good balance against people like John “let them starve” Bolton and some of the other hardliners who think they can squeeze the DPRK into goodness. But at the end of the day he’s not much more than a naive - or wilfully ignorant - foil. I’ve heard interviews where he rages about the way the western media only ever showing one aspect of the DPRK - the marching soldiers, the nuke, etc - but nary a mention of exactly how brutalized the chosun-saram actually are, and how malign their leadership. For a balanced viewpoint, see Andre Lankov. For a left wing fantasy go see Cumings.
In saying that, I agree with him on a few specific points. It’s hard to sympathize with Japan’s 20 abductees when they forcibly mobilized up to 40,000 Koreans during the colonial era (some of them for “comfort” purposes).
As for his criticisms of the US Army - I don’t know what his position is, so I can’t really comment. Maybe Swlee can help me out with “a more partial account of the history of US involvement here”? I’m curious to hear what that is.
I suggest that some of y’all reread the article.
Ol’ Bruce said the Bill Richardson reported back (no doubt with little girl glee) that North Korea want to be America’s ally. Ol’ Bruce then said he thought it more likely that NK just wanted another sucker to keep givining them aid in exchange for their not staying in China’s embrace.
The real question is what kind of idiot would want to try to take that tarbaby off of China’s hands. The only guy I know who talks like that is Kim Dae-jung, who just wants to make sure that the $500,000,000 he spent for his summit with KJI wasn’t a comeplete waste.
Of course, that means the only reason we are dealing with the KJI and company at all is that they have nukes. They know this so I don’t expect them to be giving them up.
I just hope Bush doesn’t sell the farm just to keep the illusion of progress going.
UNINTENDED TRUTH ALERT: “Cumings was important in bringing a more partial account of the history of US involvement here…”
Watching Uncle Sam’s indulgence of South Korea in the last decade or so, it’s easy to understand why North Korea would want to “get into the ally business” — possible the first DPRK racket since their cold War shakedown of the Sovs and Chinese that would actually be legal.
As an Asian Studies major, I’ve had to read a lot of Bruce Cummings’ essays and books on South Korea. I can’t take that guy seriously at all - no offense. His suggestion in the article you cited above is a slice of radical thinking, at best, and it’s unfortunate we don’t have anyone else we can take a little more seriously in the world of Korean Studies.
Bruce Cummings is a big fish in a little pond.
possibly, sorry
“As it happened U.S. intelligence on the North’s HEU was no better on than it was Saddam Hussein’s WMDs, but it took five years to find that out. In the immediate aftermath of the February 13th, 2007 agreement between Washington and Pyonguag Joseph DeTrani, a longtime intelligence official, informed a Senate committee that intelligence agencies now pegged reports of the North’s HEU weapons program at only “the mid-confidence level,” which is jargon for information that can be interpreted in various ways, or isn’t fully corroborated.”
This seems to be a willful misinterpretation of what DeTrani said. He expressed “high-level confidence” that North Korea had indeed done everything it was accused of doing in 2002 (violations of the ‘94 agreement that took place years before Bush) , but only “mid-level confidence” that it had succeeded in getting an HEU program running.
Because much of the US media made the same error as Cumings — some for the same reasons — DeTrani issued clarifications the next day.
The most important thing to note about this Cumings piece is that it is an excerpt of his speech on the 8th anniversary of the June 15 summit — blowing smoke up the backsides of the Sunshine crew, people who wish it went down that way and who paid for the good professor’s plane ticket.
bruce cummings’ book ‘korea’s place in the sun’ is now in paperback.
any of you who shit on bruce have any books in paperback?
I wonder if pawi and swlee would refer to Cumings’ wife as a “slut”.
“Battlefield Earth” is also available in paperback.
Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il also have hundreds of published works, pawi.
There’s only hard cover for Japanese translation.
And it’s still sucks.
#14
“In saying that, I agree with him on a few specific points. It’s hard to sympathize with Japan’s 20 abductees when they forcibly mobilized up to 40,000 Koreans during the colonial era (some of them for “comfort” purposes).”
Actually the minimum number we’ve got on “wartime labor mobilization workers” are more than 440,000.
Anyway,I think what you are basically saying is Japan must allow Koreans endless abuse of blank power of attorney.And my reply is “two wrongs won’t make one right”.
Besides,Japan had apologized numbers of times to both Korea on human right abuses in colonial days.Even Koizumi Junichiro had apologized directly to Kim Jong Il in his 2004 Pyongyang visit and promised the financial compensation after the normalization.
‘I wonder if pawi and swlee would refer to Cumings’ wife as a “slut”.’
you show me where i’ve dissed a korean lady for marrying a white guy. put your big mouth where your money is. don’t make accusations like this.
this is what i mean when i refer to your comman expat as a casual liar. tsk, tsk, tsk…..
yeah, bruce is a respected author. are any of you?
#4, “I agree. Is it worth it to support regimes like Egypt, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia - no name only three - who are not only questionable allies, but fine examples of rotten dictatorships? Supporting these turds undermines the credibility of the United States, which is ultimately a very bad thing”.
Well it may do, but at what cost do you run up the flag of morality and abandon those ‘turds’ to ones who are worse. Would you relish the spectre of an ISI/Taliban-run Pakistan with nukes? Or Saudi, no longer under the pliable house of Saud, but rather Al Qaeda sitting on the largest energy reserve in the world? Egypt given over to the Muslim brotherhood who would strangle Europe through control of the Suez?
#11, “Cumings was important in bringing a more partial account of the history of US involvement here to the attention of the mainstream English speaking audience. Get over it”.
Except he didn’t. The archives released by Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union prove that Kim was begging to invade the south. Cumings’ was a nice try, but the theory was debunked.
On a lighter not, can someone be so kind as to direct me to an idiot-proof site that will teach me how to do proper boxed quotes and italics here?
#26,
yeah, bruce is a respected author. are any of you?
So is Hitler in Korea. You wouldn’t believe the amount of adjoshis I’ve questioned about their reading of ‘Mein Kampf’ only to be told “ooh, he was-eu da bery inpluential reader!” So your point was?
Where is “pawi’s conscience” when you need him/her?
Pawi is again committing a basic logical fallacy here by stating that only published authors can criticize published authors like Cumings (whose star faded when the Berlin Wall went down, the Soviet Union imploded and many “inconvenient facts” came out to debunk his life’s work and relegate him to an apologist for the Kim Family Regime and its South Korean lackeys and bagmen.)
But if we are to lower our standards to this line of reasoning, just as an exercise, what on earth would pawi himself be qualified to comment on? 1970s Korean/Japanese taxidriver music? Bay Area restaurants? Passive/agressive resentment of non-Koreans? Konglish games with Chinese characters? Cheating at paintball? Dry cleaning? Have I left anything out?
My English translation of “pawigirogi” is “fish in a barrel”.
wow, comparing bruce to hitler? keep talking.
btw, i’ve always wanted to ask, did you star as one of the prisoners in that movie, ‘alien 3′?
‘But if we are to lower our standards to this line of reasoning, just as an exercise, what on earth would pawi himself be qualified to comment on? 1970s Korean/Japanese taxidriver music? Bay Area restaurants? Passive/agressive resentment of non-Koreans? Konglish games with Chinese characters? Cheating at paintball? Dry cleaning? Have I left anything out?’
you take take time to keep tabs on me while i simply read you when i see you. you’re stupid if you think people can’t see that contradiction of yours.
you despise koreans. that’s why you despise me while you love me. you’re a joke to me, slimmy.
as for my avatars, i had you in mind, slim. think about it.
Excellent post. I’d only add that the wise counsel from Washington’s Farewell Address to avoid “passionate attachments,” “apostate and unnatural connection with any foreign power,” and “foreign alliances, attachments, and intrigues” should be applied universally, not just to “complete douche bags of marginal strategic value.”
Slim beat me to it. No, Pawi, was not comparing Bruce to Adolf. I’ve actually used his works and quoted him for my MA papers, mostly for the purpose of providing contrast, though. I was trying to point out your simple logic, or lack thereof and your pitiful appeal to authority. And are you so desperate for attention that you would turn to talk of avatars or try to imply that your’s make you out to be such a witty guy? Don’t you have an Omma to stroke your ego, anyhow?
I got my Master’s in Korean Studies from the University of Washington where Bruce Cumings used to teach. While his scholarship, radical and left-wing as it was, was considered quite good, he was basically forced out from the university for….er…let’s just say he was not playing well with the other children (and by that I mean professors).
As far as his books go, Korea’s Place in the Sun is required reading for almost any Korean history or political science class. The book itself is not that bad, but definitely leans left. His 2 volumes on the Origins of the Korean War are still considered the standard by which other books on the Korean War are judged, over 20 years after they were published.
For some really great reading by leading Korean studies academics, I recommend
1. Hagen Koo’s (University of Hawaii) “Korean Workers: The Culture and Politics of Class Formation” - this book examines the history and formation of the Korean labor movement. It goes into great detail about the roles that women and the church played.
2. Robert Scalapino and Chong Shik-Lee’s “Communism in Korea”. This is just a bit outdated (1972) but it provides an excellent look into the historical development of communism in Korea. It traces the beginning of communism’s influence among Koreans (ironically, brought back from Japan by the elite Yangban students who were given the chance to study in Japan in the late 19th century) through to the pre-Korean War era and after the war.
3. James Palais’ (University of Washington) “Politics and Policy in Traditional Korea” - also a bit dated (early 1970s) this is still perhaps the defining book on how the Choson Dynasty was completely unprepared for adapting to the modern world. The general stability imposed by the neo-Confucian system is also the reason the country wasn’t able / refused to adapt. It especially examines the years 1864 - 1873.
4. Roger and Dawnhee Yanelli (University of Indiana) “Ancestor Worship and Korean Society” - examines the Andong Kwon family from an anthropological viewpoint and the role that ancestor worship played (also a bit dated, early 1980s) in Korean villages.
5. Kong Dan Oh’s “North Korea: Through the Looking Glass” - provides some of the most incredible detail of the inner workings of North Korea’s political system. Argues that while juche is the source of the Kims’ political power, it is also their downfall, as they cannot suddenly open to the outside world as that would go against juche and would weaken their political foundation.
6. Suh Dae Sook’s (University of Hawaii) “Kim Il Sung” - perhaps the most definitive biography written about The Great Leader
7. Don Oberdorfer’s “The Two Koreas” - Oberdorfer is a journalist who spent decades in South Korea. This book examines the history of both Koreas post-Korean War. Incredibly easy to read, provides first hand accounts of many of the events that shaped modern South Korean history (Oberdorfer was in the room when Park Chung Hee’s wife was killed by an assassin).
Pawi, you despicable liar and hypocrite. You called my wife a whore and a dog, in comments deleted by Robert.
This is what I mean when I refer to you as a typical Korean douchebag, which you are.
My, though, you’re brave on the Interwebs. Time to check with dda to find out more about you.
I like the Marmot’s analysis here, and it has evoked a discussion that has generally been quite thoughtful, with solid contributions by aaronm and nachoinkorea among others.
#35–I study Japanese history and am just reading for insight, but wanted to point out that (4) above should be Roger Janelli at Indiana University. As a non-expert I’ve found Michael Robinson’s works to be of interest, too.
Let me parenthetically mention one thing that has no doubt caught the attention of most people here already - McCain’s endorsement of maintaining a long-term presence in Iraq ala Korea.
Shouldn’t we be doing our best to educate the American electorate about the degree of anti-Americanism in Korea (and, for that matter, Japan) that largely results from maintaining a strategic military presence in country?
Given the Korean example is no bed of roses, what can we expect but more Bin Ladens in the middle east?
#37, cheers, nobody accuses me of that often.
“Shouldn’t we be doing our best to educate the American electorate about the degree of anti-Americanism in Korea (and, for that matter, Japan) that largely results from maintaining a strategic military presence in country?”
Do I see any candle lights/mass rally anywhere in Tokyo protesting the U.S bases?
If so,that’s been quite sometime since the last one….
And going back to the “influence in Korea” argument…
We’ve been there,done that and didn’t like it.
We are pretty satisfied with a body of water that separates us exists.
And why does America need it’s presence in Korea to “check on Japan’s future course”,if America already has presence in Japan and nuclear armed/UN security council member/People’s Republic of China costantly checking on us?
Another thing: When discussing American troop withdrawal from Asian, why does or should anyone in America give a shit about “stability in East Asia”? Cause it’ll interrupt the flow of lead toys to America? Really, why should anyone who’s not a corporate leader care? Can’t we just get our doodads made in Peru or Zimbabwe, and rebuild the manufacturing infrastructure for bigger things like cars?
From the BIG long viewpoint, wouldn’t withdrawing completely and letting the Japanese, Chinese and Koreans slaughter each other and leave each others countries in smoldering ruins be entirely in America’s long-term strategic interest? A pox on all their houses. Lets sell weapons to all parties so the inevitable is more spectacular and thorough. What’s better than your potential rivals shooting themselves and each other in the foot? Why does the American government put the interests of corporate fucks (who do everything possible not to pay taxes in America anyways) who worry about their doodad factory outside of Shanghai ahead of the interests of the nation?
And you know, Western Europe had to have two of these grand slaughters last century before they realized the insanity of it. Time to let East Asia run its own affairs, and if that means they need to wage insane destructive wars to realize how insane and destructive war is, then fine. Isn’t America just delaying the inevitable? Does anyone here actually believe that the chances of a war in East Asia in the next 50 years is less than 95%?
40. aceface
“Do I see any candle lights/mass rally anywhere in Tokyo protesting the U.S bases?
If so,that’s been quite sometime since the last one….”
Well, japanese people are more docile than koreans. But that is not to say there aren’t plenty of resentment of american troops in okinawa.
governer calling for end of US troops
http://www.usatoday.com/news/w.....nawa_x.htm
protests in okinawa
http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....85617.html
I think the US should pull out of east asia. Let us fight a few times in a few massive wars and maybe we’ll learn the lessons learned by europe.
Though not written by an academic I’d add, “Troubled Tiger: Businessmen, Bureaucrats and Generals in South Korea” by Mark Clifford to nacho’s list. Published in 1994, Clifford’s book was amongst the first to predict Korea’s economic troubles. I recall The Guardian ridiculed it - The U.K. should be so lucky to have Korea’s problems, if I recall its derision correctly - but Clifford was vindicated in 97/98 when “Korea Inc.” went belly up (either the K Times or K Herald frequently wrote “Korea Inc.” in the early ’90s).
you’re a god damn liar. as i said before, PROVE IT!
“From the BIG long viewpoint, wouldn’t withdrawing completely and letting the Japanese, Chinese and Koreans slaughter each other and leave each others countries in smoldering ruins be entirely in America’s long-term strategic interest?”
We did that and now we’re transitioning out of the aftermath of World War 2.
You want to go through it again?
And why does America need it’s presence in Korea to “check on Japan’s future course”,if America already has presence in Japan..
It’s just bullshit. In general, South Korea has done well with the US military presence and it still wants it.
“We did that and now we’re transitioning out of the aftermath of World War 2.
You want to go through it again?”
We wouldn’t ‘go through’ anything - East Asia would. That’s the point.
Bill Richardson?
What does he know about Korea? North Korea?
It is akin to a Korean visiting NewYork city’s Greenwich village several times and saying “all Americans are gays”.
Bill has no clue about North Korea.
No clue.
‘We wouldn’t ‘go through’ anything - East Asia would. That’s the point.’
a statement made by some young punk who clearly doesn’t understand how the world works. let’s see, the number 2,3, and 13th largest economies in the world get into a war and nobody will be harmed except for the participants? come back to this board when you graduate hs, ok?
I second the nomination. I read that book when it first came out, and it has survived periodic purges.
#44 -
Pawi, you did say on an earlier thread that dogbert and his wife were proof that American beef was unfit even for dogs. You even went on to explain that dogbert = American beef and his wife = dog. I remember reading this quite clearly. No doubt dogbert does too.
Scroll down to post 78
It was one of the funniest things I’ve read on here too. Dogbeat got pwned. Still chuckling.
Oops
Scroll down to post 74
It was one of the funniest things I’ve read on here too. Dogbeat got pwned. Still chuckling.
Try the permalink feature next time.
Ooops, my bad. Pawi didn’t say it, he just quoted it approvingly (“lol”).
“Well, japanese people are more docile than koreans.”
That’s the point.
And I don’t see any major LDP politicians using anti-Americanism as driving force for the popular support,nor mass rally in Tokyo for at least 35 years.
“But that is not to say there aren’t plenty of resentment of american troops in okinawa.”
#43
Yeah,but Okinawans aren’t exactly anti-America.At least you won’t get punched by walking just in the street.Besides,the marines are leaving for Guam anyway.
And with now Taiwan had just announced yesturday that they may go for a war in the Senkakus,people just chnage their minds with the remaining presence.
Okinawa is more of an exception than the norm of Japanese.
“I think the US should pull out of east asia. Let us fight a few times in a few massive wars and maybe we’ll learn the lessons learned by europe.”
I don’t know about in Korea,but lessons already learned in Japan.
Basically you are saying is “If the U.S is pulling out from Korea,they must have pulled out from Japan too!”and “Since Korea is the hub of East Asia,there will be blood if the U.S chooses to withdrawn from this land of gold”.
#47
“It’s just bullshit. In general, South Korea has done well with the US military presence and it still wants it.”
South Korea has done better with the U.S military than Japan when Rhee and Park was in power.
But at least Tokyo paid more host nation support to the pentagon and allowed more flexible mobilization of USFJ to other theaters.In another words,anything you want with USFK can be done with USFJ and more.I think.
And these are not even the main point of my argument.The argument is “would Amrican presence in Korea would work to check and balance Japan?”
And my answer is that is an over investment since the U.S can have influence via USFJ and Sino-American entente to curve the course of Japanese security strategy.
US-Korea Alliance has to find some other logic to thrive itself for the next decade.I think.
“let’s see, the number 2,3, and 13th largest economies in the world get into a war and nobody will be harmed except for the participants?”
Oh, there’d be some short term pain and a half-decade of recession whilst America figured out where to buy cheap crap elsewhere (Chinese toys, Korean cars) or build it back in America again. But in the medium to long run, the 3 main Asian competitors would have cleared themselves out of the global running, and that’s gotta be an extension of another century of American economic supremacy. Not to mention the oil and other resources that the smoldering ruins of Japan, China and Korea would not be consuming anymore.
I don’t even know why we’re talking about China, Korea and Japan going to war. China is Korea and Japan’s largest trading partners, and yeah, sure, nationalism is an issue, but when you have Uncle Sam keeping everyone apart, it’s easy to run your mouth off. It could be argued that without the US, Korea, Japan and China would find it in their interests to find a way to play nice.
It would have been in the interests of France, Germany, Britain, Russia et al to play nice twice last century, but it didn’t happen. Delusional, over-emotional thinking and nationalism of various stripes among most of the parties was to blame. Sound familiar?
It’s hypothetical, but I say once the East Asians are left alone without Daddy Sam, it’ll be a bloodbath within a decade. Anyhow we may never know, because corporate America has a vested interest in having the US military play regional security guard to it’s investments in Asia.
And play nice has been the policy of the last 60 years for the Japanese,No?
Nationalism ain’t an issue here in Japan.It just can’t mobilize thousands to the streets.
And Uncle Sam didn’t actually help Japan and Korea apart.Washington tried to
put the two in the same box all the time.Putting 27,000 U.S troops on the ground in Korea would put Japan automatically in any conflict Korea faces and speaking frankly,we don’t want that.We are not asking for the demolish of the US-SK alliances,but the redeploying the ground troops to somewhere else would match our interest.
And seriously,would nay of you actually think there will be a war in East Asia after America’s departure?
Korean acts tough to Japanese since they know they will never get wacked back in the face.Because we won’t.Same can be said about the U.S.
But they take different attitude to Chinese and will do so more,if the U.S no longer watch their back.Even if that won’t work out,Tokyo will never side on one side in potential Sino-Korean disputes and China has plenty of leverage to Korea and can settle any disputes without it escalates into an armed conflict.So there will be no Sino-Korean or Sino-Japanese conflict over Korean peninsula.
China’s rise is a different matter.But It takes Russia and India along with the U.S to balance with Beijing and it is not smart idea to deal with them in a place like Korean peninsula.
I don’t like Cummings since he blames Japan for any tentions with Korea,yet always ignores Korea’s blatant nationalism and irresponsible media coverage of which he is part of sometimes.
The whole idea like making alliance with North Korea in a manners like “if not a friend or an ally against China, against a revived Russia, and as a check on Japan’s future course”is typical and drive everyone more suspicious and may bring unintentional response and only add more fuels to the fire.
“Cumings was important in bringing a more partial account of the history of US involvement here to the attention of the mainstream English speaking audience.”
Hah. Criticism is one thing, total distortion is another.
“The real question is what kind of idiot would want to try to take that tarbaby off of China’s hands.”
Now that is a hilarious comment.
Aceface said :
“Nationalism ain’t an issue here in Japan.It just can’t mobilize thousands to the streets.”
How naive you are. When Chinese and Korean provocations against Japan happen, do you really think Japan will not revert to self-defence and “obedience to my superior”?
The Japanese are the natural masters of Asia. Let the hee-haw Koreans and Chinese push them too far, and we will see what happens.
“When Chinese and Korean provocations against Japan happen, do you really think Japan will not revert to self-defence and “obedience to my superior”?”
That happens all the time.Johnson.
And perhaps we might learn one or two from Canadians about “Obedience to my superior”thing.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....ent-162373