If you work in the Gwanghwamun area, and you haven’t left the office yet, well, make sure your podcasts are fully updated. We might have a million people on the streets, and police have the whole Gwanghwamun area under lockdown.
UPDATE: Mr. Lee has a photo of the police barricade set up in front of the Yi Sun-sin statue. There was a similar barricade in front of the old Hanguk Ilbo building, too, and I’d imagine one to the west, too. I don’t know what’s more disturbing, the containers or the haze so thick you can hardly see Mt. Bugaksan. Been real shit weather for photographers as of late.
80 Comments
I’ll be there, crappy cameraphone in hand. They have big freight storage containers blocking sejongno instead of buses this time, welded together, right in front of Admiral Yi Sunshin’s intimidating glare. Already upwards of 20000 people there at twenty to seven.
my wife said it was nuts at 3:30, she took the subway home instead of a quick cab ride and we are both glad we dont have to give finals tonite.
i hope this is the high water mark but somehow i dont think it will be.
robert, you going to take any pics?
i hope it gets ugly and the us media picks up on it so somebody high up tells the koreans to stop this crap. it was the #2 story on cnn earlier after oil prices
Yeah I canceled my appointment there tonight and told my wife to leave the office early. I doubt she will be able to do that and will end up getting home quite late and very angry.
Double joy.
Had a meeting at Seoul City Hall this afternoon, and the containers were already up. You’d have an easier time getting across the DMZ than into Gwanghwamun.
The (very geriatric) rightwing nutters were on full display, too, apparently occupying Seoul City Hall before anyone else could get there.
I heard it on one news, if Lee doesn’t renegotiate the beef deal, this could get 10X, then 100X worse than this. This could get uglier and uglier.
I can’t imagine a million people protesting all night.
It’s beef their protesting after all, nobody’s upset about the long hours Koreans employees put in…
So what, are their bosses giving them time off? Saturday maybe, but on a Tuesday…
High School kids face the paddle if they miss school, so I doubt too many of them will show up.
Lot’s of college kids then, maybe? If it wasn’t America they were protesting, this American would be down there trying to pick up some college girls.
Easy prediction (Koreans are by far the most predictable people on this planet; the Japanese rank second, the Chinese third): things WILL get worse. 2MB’s toast.
Great to come back to Marmot’s after about a year and see everything is still exactly the same
I was really hoping Korea had outgrown this stuff, but when I see Kang Ki-gap out in front of the protestors it’s obvious that nothing has changed, at least with the blowhards he represents. Koreans should let him and his pals run the gov’t for a while if they want to know the real meaning of failure.
Crashing stock market, skyrocketing oil prices, striking truck drivers, crashing Korean Won, skyrocketing trade deficit, zero economic growth, global economic crisis, Korea is in deep trouble.
Yet here we are, Korea’s national assembly closed down and the entire country shut down due to protests over….
beef…
I think this is what they call “self destruction”.
It’s terrible to live in this neighborhood when those fuckers are out on the street. The World Cup I could tolerate, because it was positive — but this! Oy vey.
The good news is, nobody in America has yet had the nerve to hold Korea accountable for its tantrums. If Obama comes out and denounces Korea and says the FTA is definitely off, he’s got my vote. McCain won’t do it. Visa waiver too — let Koreans overstay somewhere else.
Welcome back, Michael. Hope everything’s been well with you.
I’m not making predictions, of course, but things might not necessarily get worse. Today’s a big day, being the 21st anniversary of the June 10 protests. Let’s see if the momentum continues — it’s hot, and people don’t appreciate the traffic mess downtown. On the other hand, the protests are probably more fun than the Hi Seoul Festival.
I really hate that monky, Kang Ki Gap (Democratic Labor Party leader). I would rip his long beard off if I could. He’s in every god damn rally that has somekind of ani American theme. Usually he’s seen on TV, in the front of the protests. And this beef thing is not an exception. He would like to put Korea back 120 years, if he could, judging by his ridiculous clothing.
Yes, I agree. I think that the lefties have over played their hand on this one and public sympathy will wear thin. I truly wonder how this is going to play out. Most interesting thing to happen in years and really I wish I was there to get a feel for it among the general pop.
#10 Come on Carr. You wish to ruin your country by voting for Obama , out of spite for Korea. Your comment surprises me. McCain is not my guy, he is the better choice of the two for hundreds of reasons.
I think the one million figure was supposed to be nationwide, not all in Kwanghwamun. Not that it’ll make much difference to area residents, I imagine.
The British Foreign Office (aye, I check their website daily) were advising people to stay away from the centre of Seoul because “South Korean officials are expecting up to 1 million people to take to the streets in central Seoul.”
http://www.fco.gov.uk
(They will have changed the text if you’re trying to read this after Tuesday)
I don’t have a TV, so could anyone provide an internet site with the protests being streamed live so I can watch them?
I saw on Ohmynews.com that they were taking donations for their live video streaming of the candlelight protests, but I couldn’t actually find the link to the live video streaming of the candlelight protests…
Oh and for you guys who live in Gwangwhamun are the police fairly willing to part their shields to let you home? Or are you just holed up indoors..
Thanks Mr. Koehler, hope all’s well with you too.
“On the other hand, the protests are probably more fun than the Hi Seoul Festival.” Ouch!
I agree things might not get worse since this bit of politcal theater is going to soon wear out people’s patience, as it always does. Too bad that it seems every time to have to escalate to attacks on police with iron pipes and destroyed property before people get fed up.
The good news is, nobody in America has yet had the nerve to hold Korea accountable for its tantrums.
I saw a senior US Commerce official in Washington Monday roll his eyes at a gaggle of reporters’ questions about the Korean beef hysteria, but then limit his public comments to something like “we’re simply going to stick with the facts and the science.”
Beef….its what’s for dinner.
Are there enough port-a-potties to handle that crowd?
Pretty amazing to remember how 20 years ago they were protesting and rioting in the streets to get free elections. Now they have them, but are out in the streets again, protesting and rioting against the government they recently elected. Seems like a pretty serious short circuit somewhere…
Don’t forget that Friday is the anniversary of the 2 schoolgirls killed by the USFK vehicle accident (at least, that’s what I was told).
This week/end could get really out of control!
If 2MB is really run out of office over this, Korea will definitely be on the fast track to self destruction- as if they aren’t already.
#9 CM said right:
“Crashing stock market, skyrocketing oil prices, striking truck drivers, crashing Korean Won, skyrocketing trade deficit, zero economic growth, global economic crisis, Korea is in deep trouble.
Yet here we are, Korea’s national assembly closed down and the entire country shut down due to protests over….
beef…”
I think that some misunderstand the nature of Korean anti-americanism. Unlike the Europeans, who exhibit a superior air towards the US, Korea’s antipathy for the US is rooted in an a shameful sense of inferiority.
This is why Europeans and Koreans come after the US in very different ways. Europeans, for example, believe that Americans are fundamentally racist, unlike themselves, although there is much contrary evidence that Europeans are more racists than Americans. After all, anti-semitism is a European phenomenon that persist even after the Holocaust. Also, there are a plethora of anecdotal evidence, e.g., at many soccer games, the crowds often throw racial epithets at players of color. When is the last time you’ve heard that happening in any major sporting venue in the US (you’ll probably have to dig back to the 70’s)? Also, Europeans are always worried that a dictatorship will rise in the US because of American backward political sensibilities. But it is Europe that produces dictators in regular batches, e.g., Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Franco, Milosevic, Putin, etc., and not the US.
Koreans, however, are not so much worried about rampant racism or the lack of political enlightenment in the average American, but rather focus on anything that appear to reflect a sign of disrespect. They fret mightily that the US is looking down their noses at them and, as such, become obssesive with any shadowy undertones in American words or actions that could be construed as as a racial or national sleight.
Think about it. One of the lies that these anti-US beef protests promulgate is that Americans are giving Koreans meat that they won’t eat themselves (and some netizens go far as to say that the meat being imported is not even good enough for American pets). Koreans readily believe in this because it fits in with their fears about the US, namley that it is constantly “dissing” them. To not believe this would cause great cognitive dissonance.
So why do Koreans send their brightest sons and daughters to schools in the US? Doesn’t this belie their antipathy towards the US? Not really. In the end, Koreans, at least at the level of the family unit, are more or less practical. As such, despite the shameful sense of inferiority, why shouldn’t they take advantage of the greatest educational system in the world, the average Korean would ask.
Apologies for the lenghty post. But for those who are not Korean (I am), I am trying to help foreigners understand what is ultimately driving all that anger and bitterness in these anti-US protests.
Hmm, I told my little brother not to go to the rally. But on the other hand it would be pretty amazing to see so many people gather (for whatever reason) almost once in a lifetime stuff. And worthy of some pretty good stories. Apparently there were guys going round his Kordae lectures trying to rally/ entice everyone to jump on the bandwagon.
Jude 747, excellent observations about Korean anti-Americanism. One further fact I would like to add. Korean anti-Americanism focuses less on antipathy toward Americans than on antipathy toward Korean American sympathizers who are seen as traitors to the nation. So when commentators try to pass off this anti-American orgy as anti 2MB, the truth is, it is still anti-American.
Since Americans are envied (as all who are perceived as better off are), then sympathizing with rich Americans is a capital crime. It is ultimately attributable to the Korean character flaw of intense, toxic envy (or as you put it, “sense of inferiority”.
#22 we already know all that.
Problem is that Koreans need to learn the very valuable lesson that respect needs to be earned.
Just screaming and throwing tantrums like spoiled little children is the absolutely worng way of going about it.
Yes, a big part of anti-Americanism in Korea is about demanding respect from the US.
Will they ever learn that the world just don’t work that way?
Time to grow up Korea!
Am I the only expat who thinks all this is brilliant entertainment? Why the hate, guys? This is quality theatre. I wish I was in Gwanghwamun, I got a wicked anti-미친소 t-shirt off some students in Jongno two weeks ago, I’d fit right in.
#24 interesting take on the ‘envy’ issue.
2 types of envy:
- You wish you had something or were in the same situation as another.
- You are upset that someone has something or is in a better situation than you and you wish they didn’t have it because you don’t.
Well, over the years I’ve had countless interviews with students. One of the topics they talk about is couples. Most of the time, the single students say they get upset when they see couples who are being affectionate or enjoying time together in public. They say they wish the couples wouldn’t do it because it makes them feel bad about being lonely.
They wish to take away other’s happiness because they themselves don’t have it.
Now, why am I telling you this?
Is it a popular trait here to dislike those who seem better off than you and sincerely wish they not in the better situation because you yourself are not?
Is this what envy is here?
Food for thought!
Agree with Jude747. Korean anti Americanism comes from the sense of inferiority complex feeling that Americans look down on Koreans. One perfect example: pressuring the US for no Visa status. I have constantly read this inferiority complex in Korean language internet sphere. The theme that “they don’t respect us”. “We are slaves to America”. “Why is Korea always sucking up to America?”. “Why do the US always force Korea”. “Their losers come here, talk trash about us, take our money and boink our trash women who volunteer to spread their legs”. On and on and on.
The feeling of being dissed will only grow with Condoleeza Rice calling South Korea - ‘a partner’, instead of an “ally”. She called Australia and Japan, “staunch allies”.
Anti Americanism in Korea will not go away until Koreans feel they have finally arrived and they don’t need any approval from outside world. It won’t go away until Koreans feel they are on an equal footing with the United States.
The problem is though, the way Korea reacts childish like this, the further away the day when Korea is truly on an equal footing with the advanced developed countries. Do you ever see any advanced developed country holding mass million man candlelight vigils over beef imports?
Over at Asian-sirens you can compare before/after breast implant photos for a pretty girl. (Spoiler: they’re both pretty good)
Yeah, #22, I’m sure more than most of us are already painfully aware of your observations. Still, precisely stated.
I’ve finished being bothered by this crap. I’m not even American, but the sheer stupidity of it all bugs the piss out of me. Still, no more getting excited.
My wife told me this morning that she’s not eating any more MacDonald’s due to the recent revelation that they are using 30 month old beef in their patties. I nearly lost the fucking plot. I week ago I had her convinced that 30 month old US beef was hardly deadly. In one ear out the bloody matrix plug in the back of their heads, I guess.
In protest, I’m bringing MacDonald’s home for dinner every night. It has upset the apple cart (she loves to feed me rice like a good little Chinaman), but enough is a-bloody-nough! Other than mentioning my silent protest, however, I am never discussing the matter with another local again. Absolutely pointless.
This protest highlights my “anniversaries” theory.
The Chosun Daily (English version at least) ran an editorial pouring over how Condi Rice described Australia, Japan, and Korea’s relationship with the US. Australia and Japan got the “ally” tage and Korea did not.
I give it a perhaps 50/50 chance this will all die quickly by next Monday.
Lee’s kowtowing to public pressure early on sent them into a feeding frenzy. Now they have him begging for mercy. — That stands a chance of encouraging them to push even more….
….but with the news this week USFK (still) wants to pull its command back to Hawaii….
…coupled with the size of the protests now…..and the level of (incorrect) foreign media coverage of events…
I have a feeling right now is the big finale….
But I could be wrong….We’ll see…
Korea reminds me of the tag line from Jaws, just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water. Just when Korea seems to have shaken its hidden affection for leftist, destructive nationalism it resurfaces. Perhaps this destructive nationalism is the real whack a mole the US officials mentioned. Is it just me, or are most of you looking forward to summer vacation?
What does everyone think the future of South Korea holds. I believe most expats hope that is prospers, since they are living here and one reasons that if Korea is doing better they would stand to do better as well.
Economically things look less than promising for the country.
Politically it seems unstable at best.
Is it time to give up on Korea? Has Korea seen its day in the sun? Is it all downhill from here? Just thinking about these things in relation to the million mad cow march.
Unlike other commentators, I unfortunately lack an ability to analyze this situation using complexities and big words. Therefore I’ll keep it simple.
All I can say about the protesters is this, DICKHEADS.
I teach a bunch of Korean military officers as part of our school’s continuing education program, and I am convinced there are basically two types of people in Korea: a-holes, like the protesters, and people like the military guys I’m teaching, who are great.
Anyway, these Korean officers have made a few comments suggesting that they are somewhat upset and embarrassed by these beef protests, even though we have not really talked about them in class.
They have tried to get me to give my opinion on the protests, but the only thing that I have said is that I am thinking about buying a cow costume to wear to the protests that has a sign on front that reads, “I’m from the US, and I taste great.”
to #35
Wow, gbevers, what an insightful comment! It perfectly captures the complexity inherent in an established nation-state.
Yeah, I am sure going to Gwanghwamun wearing a cow costume draped in an American flag will enlighten all those bamboozled protesters.
The Chosun is reporting that there are some 150,000 people protesting around the country at the moment and just over half are in Seoul. 500 were in Jeju!
Tormsen writes: “Am I the only expat who thinks all this is brilliant entertainment?” Apparently so, because this is not brilliant entertainment by any means, unless you’re a sadist and enjoy watching a country spiral out of control. There is no way this is going to die down. And it will become more anti-American, of course (some incident involving a GI [perhaps provoked] will be blown all out of proportion; I’ve seen it happen countless times).
#22 mentioned Korea’s deep-seated inferiority complex. Yes, true enough. But he failed to mention Korea’s deep-seated superiority complex (5,000 years and all that). And these two complexes when combined produce a highly toxic national character (yes, there is such a thing). In addition, Koreans themselves readily admit they are a hyper-emotional / irrational ethnic group. Plus, they are hypersensitive / intolerant to even slightest whiff of outside criticism. So the only hope is for 2MB to resign and turn the government over to the pseudo-liberal nationalist / ethnocentrists. They simply won’t accept a “peaceful transfer” of power to someone who is not willing to pour tons of money into Kim Jong-il’s coffers, reciprocity be damned. In South Korea utter chaos will reign, until 2MB leaves the Blue House, that is. There is no other alternative. 2MB Out!
Gerry, they let you teach military officers after your Takeshima kerfluffle?
jnesepa (#36),
You have obviously not been watching SBS’s morning show coverage of the protests, where a bunch of Koreans were shown dressed up as cows dancing and laughing.
SBS has been trying to paint the protests as some kind of festival that people should take their kids to. Everyone they interviewed were smiling and laughing and saying how great it was, even the kids. One little kid who looked to be about 2 or 3 was holding a sign that read, “Get rid of Lee Myung-bak.” And I am almost positive I heard the SBS commentator end the piece by saying that he hoped everyone goes out and participates in the protests. This was on the SBS morning show the day before yesterday.
I used to like Lee Myung-bak until he started kissing protestor butt.
By the way, jnesepa, your comment was also very enlightening.
Dogbert,
Yes, they let me teach Korean military officers, and the Continuing Education Director says they love me. In fact, my director has asked me to teach all the military classes next semester because the students are not satisfied with the other teacher they have.
By the way, for anyone who might be interested, the best English students you could wish for are Korean military officers.
Lamest. Protest. Ever.
I swung by Gwanghwamun around 1am… and by that time there was maybe 5,000 people out. Protesters outmanned snack-sellers, but not by much.
As someone who lived through the Jeolla protests of 1996-ish, I was so disappointed in last night’s silliness. Didn’t someone around this blog call the protests Korea’s Woodstock? No way, no how.
The worst part about last night protests were the giant barriers LMB erected to keep him safe. Make him look like a total pussy, considering how tepid the actual protests were.
I know it’s still snowballing in Korea, but I’m getting a little beef fatigue.
MBC lied, Korean democracy died.
@#22 Jude 747,
Beautiful post which is spot on. My sentiments exactly which I wrote about (comment #62) in the other famous thread: http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/.....-magazine/
A Korean explained it to me once in this way:
“Koreans don’t really care about China or Taiwan. We think they are lower than us. Thus, when they protest in our streets and say nasty things about us, we don’t care too much because it is like hearing an insult from an inferior or child.
However, when the US or Japan does something to embarrass us, it really hurts our pride and makes us feel like we have to always beat them because deep down inside, we fear them and are insecure. That’s why we always go crazy and hurl as many insults as possible to those countries.”
American Seoul: “What does everyone think the future of South Korea holds…Is it time to give up on Korea? Has Korea seen its day in the sun? Is it all downhill from here?”
Yes, I gave up on Korea years ago. The emotional brinkmanship, the childish social dynamics, the inability to reason, the greed and envy complex, the wide-scale corruption, the poor hygenic standards, poor environmental controls, shoddy workmanship, the poor work ethic (pretending to work long hours but slacking off), the pre-scientific mindset, the cheating, arrogant attitudes, xenophobia, racism, lack of regard for others in public, self-absorbtion, lack of maturity, emasculation of males, including the police and elected officials…
While each of these qualities can manifest themselves anywhere in the world, nowhere else in the world have I seen them combined in such a toxic mix. It’s a unique cultural disaster.
On the positive side, Korea has not degenerated into open warfare as in Iraq or numerous African nations (at least not since the Korean conflict), so there is at least some hope.
But Korea is at a turning point. It will continue to decline, and the decline will probably escalate at this point unless aomeone intervenes to save Korea’s butt as the US has in the past.
Remember, historically, Korea has been its own worst enemy unless someone intervened to help them. The US salvaged South Korea from utter destruction during the Conflict, and Pak Cheong Hee temporarily kept Korea from the type of civil chaos that is breaking out today, albeit through authoritarian means. But the rejection of “the authoritarial leadership of 2MB” does not bode well. It indicates an unwillingness to adhere to the rule of law or to attempt to accept responsibility for one’s personal actions.
Koreans still expect to get by through improving the composition of their networks rather than the quality of their personal skills. It is a massively unskilled society, a society of highly uneducated graduates who majored in coasting and cheating. It is a society in which the constant clamor for democracy and equality is belied by the overarching aspiration to become the elite through a Cinderella marriage or sycophantism in the workplace. It is a culture in which the bare minimal effort is rewarded over excellence and the cosmetic trumps the substantive.
In other words, Koreans are stuck in a Freudian adolescent stage, in which they follow others and will not dare think for themselves, and lemming-like, they are following the “leaderless” mob into the sea of their own destruction.
Do foreigners dislike Korea? Many do. Many do fervently. These are the ones who have lived there and know it firsthand. Odd, people don’t often feel this way about other nations. Korea is in this way unique - it alienates rather than endears.
But do foreigners bear Korea ill-will? I don’t think so. Most of them realize Korea reaps what it sews and just shrug their shoulders. The precipitous decline in foreign investment was predicted long ago. The economic backsliding was forewarned during the last orgy of anti-American stupidity.
Remember what caused it the last time? Two self-absorbed schoolgirls walked in front of a US tank with their fingers stuck in their ears to block out the noise and - guess what - got themselves accidentally run over. When the soldiers were fairly and properly acquitted, the mob demanded all sorts of ridiculous things - such as changing international agreements to make the hapless soldiers subject to a Korean kangaroo court; such as demanding apologies, disbelieving that they had already been given, and imperiously rejecting Pres Bush’s apology as “insincere”. The typical pattern of false rumors was also in full swing. The first rumor to be circulated was that the soldiers laughed as they deliberately ran over the girls. This was quickly supplemented by a slew of false rumors about the US military, including the charge that copious amounts of toxic wastes were being dumped into the Han river, the release of blatently false statistics and false accounts of crimes supposedly committed by US military personnel, invented rumors that US soldiers caught in the commission of sex crimes against Korean women were returned to the US without trial, and all sorts of disinformation about the US-Korea SOFA agreement.
Now, nobody likes being constantly slandered and persecuted the way Korea’s most generous ally is being treated by these imperious spoiled little brainwashed brats of the 386 generation and the students who are now being brainwashed by them.
But in every case, the US has tred lightly, solicitous of the feelings of the Korean people. I suppose that is how a mature, secure people behave. But it is indeed a blessing to the Korean people that they have such a great, patient and geneous-minded people as Americans to take advantage of while heaping unwarrented abuse on. The point is - Americans don’t take it personally. They realise this is a self-destructive tendency that feeds on a sense of paranoia, entitlement and populist arrogance. They shrug their shoulders and say, “Children will be children. What more can be expected of Koreans?
The irony is that nationalism is the driving force that undermines the nation. Yes, it is fascinating, but it is as entertaining as a train wreck, which is precisely what it is.
Just a few brief comments…
“Yes, I gave up on Korea years ago.”
No you didn’t. Otherwise, why would you be here commenting on Korea? (which I think your comments are extremely harsh)
quote
“But in every case, the US has tred lightly, solicitous of the feelings of the Korean people. I suppose that is how a mature, secure people behave. But it is indeed a blessing to the Korean people that they have such a great, patient and geneous-minded people as Americans to take advantage of while heaping unwarrented abuse on. The point is - Americans don’t take it personally. They realise this is a self-destructive tendency that feeds on a sense of paranoia, entitlement and populist arrogance. They shrug their shoulders and say, “Children will be children. What more can be expected of Koreans?”
Americans have a long history of irrational mob behavior? What about the KKK of the past. Anti Chinese riots? Lynching of blacks? Anti-Irish riots?
quote “Children will be Children”
White Man’s Burden from Rudyard Kipling. The idea that non-whites need Caucasians to control and civilize them.
I agree that Korean media and educaton is liberally biased just like Park Chung Hee era media etc… was conservatively biased. Nonetheless, Americans shouldn’t claim superiority.
It’s sad what is happening. But people are people. I guess if it bothers a person then he or she shouldn’t go there now. Unless they want to argue with irrational people.
“Otherwise, why would you be here commenting on Korea?”
So that the naive, moronically optimistic idiots like us can be enlightened as well. I’m just happy for him that he didn’t live in the States in the 60s lest he give up on U.S. too. Dodged that bullet, then eh?
“Since Americans are envied (as all who are perceived as better off are), then sympathizing with rich Americans is a capital crime. It is ultimately attributable to the Korean character flaw of intense, toxic envy (or as you put it, “sense of inferiority”.
But this is what I can’t understand Mizer if Koreans feel that way why do they tend to purchase high luxury goods and I know not all Koreans are poor so would it not be more of a crime to sympathize with rich Koreans rather than rich Americans?
What do I think of the future?
I am actually scared shitless. My time here is running down and events like this do not exactly paint a rosy red future for Korea. I dread retaliations and a further loss of confidence in Korea inc.
Why? Purely selfish reasons. My savings are here and another collapse would have the effect of holding me hostage/prisoner until recovery.
I cannot get over the fact that some of these people feel a perverse sense of pride over this. Baffling.
Politically, Korea has probably already peaked, with its parliament still stuck in the shoe-throwing, fisticuffs stage, influential media (now TV) circling down the toilet bowl and the masses mired in confusion and false consciousness.
Demographically, the writing is on the wall without immigration or a mass liberalization of the economy and educational reforms that make it easier and more desirable to raise a family rather than emigrate.
The Korean economy has surprised naysayers at home and abroad many times before, but not in the face of so much competition from China and India and not with the impending liability of a failed North Korea looming so closely.
I don’t see retaliation from the US over $900 million worth of beef trade and when there are a whole host of more egregious ROK trade barriers, but I do see exasperation and loss of patience and faith.
Since this kinda thing has been going on for a long time, I’m not too worried about South Korea’s future…
And the US has shown me nothing convincing that shows it is going to dramatically alter its economic or military relationship with Korea.
Korea’s habits have the best chance of costing them with China, but after China thumped it on the head a couple of times, South Korea has cleaned up its act with them a good bit.
Is this kind of thing going to hold Korea back? Sure.
Is it going to cause Korea to collapse? I doubt it.
Where it could hurt Korea significantly, perhaps, is when North Korea finally dies and the South has to integrate it:
South Korea will need huge amounts of money and help to deal with that, and having a habit of kicking the US and Japan in the shins all the time will make a difference in the level of enthusiasm those two nations come to South Korea’s aid. They will aid Korea, because it is in their best interests, but if South Korea were a much better ally and regional partner with one or both of those nations, they would most likely get more active and larger aid when the time comes.
Another reason why I am not that concerned with South Korea’s future if they keep doing what they have been doing for decades is — China….
I have a feeling, if China does in fact manage to keep growing economically as it has so far—-Americans and others will soon forget Korea’s arrogance and shin kicking — as a bigger player steps up in that area….
Mizar5,
The best Korea-related comment on the Blogs–ever.
Shouldn’t Mizar5’s commentary be a separate post unto itself? He articulates everything I’ve been feeling about Korea but never had the patience to put it all down in such a comprehensive manner.
Mizar5’s comment is nothing to do with race, with his skin color, or White Man’s Burden; its about nationality. The only relation it could possibly have to race is that Korea equates nationality and race together as one and the same. Well, guess what, other people DON’T.
So, you crazed racist commentators, listen up. Complaining against Korean culture and the Korean government IS NOT RACIST, because Korea is a country. If it seems racist to you its only because Korea has restricted the definition of Korean nationality to one race, as much as it is able (they have tried their hardest to keep out the dirty Asians but they’re getting in anyways). But that’s just a coincidence, and the misunderstanding is also the fault of the Korean government and culture that has such a narrow (can we say racist?) definition of nationality.
Bravo, Mizar5. That’s some wicked commentary. I haven’t followed all the events that offend you specifically as an American, but your take on Korea is bold and brilliant.
Translation of Mizar5’s comments.
I’m a white loser who’s angry about the racism in Korea.
You’ve managed to simplify very complex and interrelated issues into juvenile whining, which at first may sound sophisticated, but lacks in actual substance.
A protest against US beef is not going to collapse the economy. What will collapse is if the liberals continue to successfully undermine capitalism.
A substantial majority are educated overseas in the US yet they are uneducated? For some reason other than highly educated people, we managed to overtake the Japanese as #1 in several industries.
The liberals have been stoking fear and anti-American among young folks for ten years. What this means is that for ten years anyone who was in school, whether for 1-3 years or 10 years was subjected to massive left wing propaganda and its associated repressiveness.
Yet you dont see any of this, all you see is a country that doesn’t want you, and you’re right to feel like shit cause we dont want you here.
Basically i’ll sum your pathetic ass right here. You’re a loser. Your an American loser who came here for a 2nd chance which you never found. Instead you found it worse; you felt real racism.
Korea will keep growing and your government will continue trading because it does not make decisions based on overseas American nerds who are angry.
Attack the comment, not the commenter, stacked.
Korea is not at a turning point, and it’s not going to decline into the abyss. If it survived five years of Roh Moo-hyun, it will survive this.
Mizar5’s comment would be valid if we ignore the historical context of the maturity, security, etc., etc. of the what is essentially the model societal format that is the United States as well as where South Korea is in the terms of modernity. The analysis is blissfully unaware that the country had free media for only 19 years (granted, in need of serious reform) and the first actual democratic election took place in the last decade.
It also ignores that the significant non-Korean population portion did not exist until relatively recently, and that the society had at least perceived themselves as homogeneous for quite a while.
Since I know there are couple of people here with severe reading comprehension problems, I’ll state it here: Korea is a society plagued with serious problems. Only, I perceive them as growth pains rather than malignant cancer as Mizar5 implies. What was the problem with his diagnosis? Dr. Mizar forgot the age of his patient.
But if he thinks he can throw a dart and get a bull’s eye on his first try, then good for him.
How To Dismiss a Comment Critical of Korea on The Marmot’s Hole:
In One Easy Lesson.
“You, _______, must be a loser who came here to avoid flipping burgers.”
It’s just so easy, and so dumb. It’s like hearing retards babble that the dinosaurs didn’t exist, or Neil Armstrong didn’t walk on the moon. Dumber than my poop!
dumber than my poop
hey! keep things polite!
lol
‘Politically, Korea has probably already peaked, with its parliament still stuck in the shoe-throwing, fisticuffs stage, influential media (now TV) circling down the toilet bowl and the masses mired in confusion and false consciousness.’
how many times have we heard the expat make these kinds of predictions? when congress got started, people actually used to brawl. doesn’t matter when it happened, it’s that it happened which is most sig.
korea will do just fine. as for immigration, i’ll bet korea’s going to be allowing immigration sometime soon. i don’t see koreans looking to an army of robots. and btw, the same is going to happen to you folks too. you’re canadian, right?
#53
Looming liability. Maybe. On the other hand, there’s your cheap labour right there. And cheap real estate. And more attractions, great way to get in those tourist dollars with those mountains and the unique legacy of Juche. Sure, its going to be a hard long slog and a lot harder than German reunification. But I have to believe that there’s some people in ROK who look at the possibility of a Nork collapse with acquisitive greed as much as fear.
Stacked,
Mizar5 is Korean. Of course, perhaps that will merely encourage you to call him a “sell-out” instead of taking his list of grievances seriously.
BumfromKorea,
I agree with you to some extent. In fact, that’s precisely the position I took in a debate with Joshua at OneFreeKorea–when he seemingly despaired of the possibility of the maturation of the Korean democracy.
Nonetheless, I think there are certain cultural dynamics that underpin what Mizar5 sees on the surface and will be very difficult to root out.
#@68
Then we come to the mundane but nevertheless truthful conclusion that every society will have problems, and often different one at that. I honestly think that much of the problem that Mizar5 points out can be remedied by reforming how the media and the education works in South Korea. Perhaps a Korean John Dewey will pop up in the near future, which would no doubt have significant effect in the structuring and mechanisms of the Korean society as it had on the American society.
As for the racism factor, I can honestly say that the situation has definitely improved due to the Korean society’s extensive exposure to the outside world in recent times. Drunken racist ajosshis are becoming historical relics more and more each day - Korea will never get rid of such people (I don’t think bigotry can ever be removed from any society), but the number will dwindle… and has been.
Essentially, every society must deal with their problems and change as time flows because there’s no such thing as perfection. And criticisms, especially constructive ones, are important catalysts for that changes. Unfortunately, most of the criticisms I have seen in this blog (not necessarily the posts themselves but the comments from the community) have blurred the line between valid criticism and self-righteous value judgment. Not that Mizar5 was doing that… I just think his view is out of historical context and a bit too pessimistic.
“Then we come to the mundane but nevertheless truthful conclusion that every society will have problems, and often different one at that.”
I would not be so complacent nor so general as this, BumfromKorea.
Nonetheless, I am not sure if it’s fruitful for me to answer your points in greater detail. One of the main problems of making comparative judgment about Korea is that it is sui generis in some sense. That is, what country could offer a reasonable point of comparison? I certainly of no country that took its development trajectory–going from backbreaking poverty to first world or quasi-first world status in a single generation. Taiwan may offer the only parallel, but unfortunately I don’t know much about it.
Lol, i meant @#67, of course.
“That is, what country could offer a reasonable point of comparison?”
Precisely, yet we at least subconsciously do make such comparison. I know I do with United States. But I do think it is reasonable to do so when making criticism to improve the situation, while the other kind I talked about falls under what you were talking about. It is reasonable to criticize U.S.’s gun policy while using other countries as models, but it becomes unreasonable when the argument evolves into “U.S. is a gun-infested shithole” statement - the judging of the entire country has 1. become an one-issue process and 2. the issue is made to supersede all other qualities and faults of the society.
“I would not be so complacent nor so general as this, BumfromKorea.”
Korea has a lot of work left to do (a… LOT of work), but judging from what I hear how the country was from my previous generation, I do think improvement is not an impossible task. Saying that things will get better does not mean saying that how things are right now is A-OK.
The irony is that nationalism is the driving force that undermines the nation. Yes, it is fascinating, but it is as entertaining as a train wreck, which is precisely what it is.
History tells us that it takes a World War or Two to get all that nationalism out of the system.
“Korea has a lot of work left to do (a… LOT of work), but judging from what I hear how the country was from my previous generation, I do think improvement is not an impossible task.”
Alas, Park Chung-hees do not grow on trees, even on the Han soil
He claims to be Korean. I recall that awhile back when there was a discussion about his identity that Robert stated he knew for a fact that Mizar5 was not Korean but would not reveals any details about how he knew.
Like you, Won Joon, Mizar5 is very critical of Korea. Unlike you, however, he has never written any comment that communicates a genuine concern or respect for Korea.
Sonagi,
Well, I’ve communicated privately with Mizar5, so I’d need more concrete evidence than hearsay (even if it’s from someone like Robert, whose words I respect).
This is why people ought to simply use their real names online. It would cut down a lot of the online BS and trolling–as well as compel the poster to exercise some circumspection.
I’m not so sure if I wish a double-edged sword like PCH on South Korea in the near future (perhaps I’m taking your words too literally…). And as a child of the protesters against that particular administration, I say away with you!
Regardless of Mizar5’s ethnicity, as Won Joon Choe pointed out, ad hominem will always be ad hominem.
@Won Joon:
Robert states twice on this thread that Mizar5 is a white guy. I believe you believe he’s Korean, but most other regular commenters, including myself, do not. His posts used to contain the phrase “we Koreans” as if he were qualified to speak for an entire nation.
I just read through it, and I am not convinced, esp. when leading the charge against Mizar5 is “Kushibo,” who has himself been exposed as using multiple aliases to bolster his points online. Robert could be right, but he doesn’t specify his evidence, and Mizar5 seems to offer a ready explanation regarding why Robert’s suspicions are unfounded.
I don’t know about Kushibo being Mizar 5, but I do believe Mizar 5 is like a lot of the expats here, is a cracker and former KORLINGUS. Couldn’t fit in in Korea and is forever bitter about it.
I, on the other hand, am the CEO of a well known Korean conglomerate, am happily married to a former news anchor, have three children all studying in the US, and enjoy golf.
More Mizar5 trivia: he used to spell his tag ‘mizarv’ (in reference to the five-star system), and he’s been banging the same gong for years now.