Gabe Hudson, a creative writing instructor at Yonsei University, had a difficult experience with his girlfriend at an Insa-dong restaurant… and wrote about it in NYT Magazine:
About a month ago, Ja-Won and I sat down at a restaurant in this neighborhood — a traditional place with mandu dumplings the size of tennis balls. The food came, and our chopsticks began to fly with joy. I’m always the only Western person in the joint, and this may sound ridiculous, but it feels good when Ja-Won beams across the table and tells me that I “eat Korean food better than a Korean man.” At any rate, we were getting lost in the food. Then a loud Korean voice cut through it all. I looked up and saw a middle-aged Korean man in a suit leering over our table. He said something very rude-sounding to Ja-Won. I could only make out the word “American.” He wagged his finger at my girlfriend, stepping in closer.
That’s the downside to these Korean meals. Sometimes this kind of thing happens. My girlfriend says the Korean men don’t want to lose one of “their” women to an American guy. In the beginning, before I understood precisely what was going on, I was exceedingly patient with these men. But that night I stood up and, even though the man didn’t speak English, quickly communicated to him that I’d break his face if he came any closer. Seeing that I meant business, the man then allowed himself to be dragged away by his wife.
I should say that if I were in New York City and I saw a fellow American accosting a Korean man and his date this way, I’d want to break the American man’s face too. But that night in Seoul I had to admit to myself that it has been hard adjusting to life there these past several months. Other nights, Ja-Won and I will be at a restaurant and things will be much different. Our chopsticks will be flying. I won’t understand the language going on around me, and I won’t be able to fathom the simple miracle of how I came to be sitting there, but I will feel as if I belong.
Tough night out, eh?
Frankly, if I had a chance to contribute an article about Seoul to NYT Magazine, this probably wouldn’t be the topic I’d discuss, especially if I’d only been in country for a couple of months and knew nothing about the place, but hey, to each his own. After all, I didn’t teach at Princeton.
I came to Korea in 1997, and I can count the number of times something like this has happened to me on one hand. More specifically, it happened three times… and one of those was probably my fault. And I spent most of my time in places much less cosmopolitan than Insa-dong.
Anyway, I only hope this kind of thing isn’t happening to Mr. Hudson with regularity. Especially after only a few months in country. Wouldn’t want anyone to get their face broken, after all.
(HT to readers)
UPDATE: Writer’s website here.
301 Comments
Meh. This piece by “Gabe Hudson” reads as if it were the product of one Shelton Bumgarner.
I have a Korean girlfriend. She wears miniskirts. She says I am better than a Korean man. And tonight, I showed her.
No doot aboot it.
Stopped reading there.
hahaha…so his gf is probably only with him due to his money/status. Fair enough. But this is just another guy ruffing his feathers…lame
I’d cut the guy a little slack. If you’ve been in Korea any length of time and have a Korean girlfriend or wife (or both!), you’ve more than likely experienced one of these encounters. I admit that it’s been a while since my wife and I have had a bad public experience such as the one described above, we certainly have been through our share of them in the past.
Brendon: bahahaha. Hit the nail on the head!
Sonagi: I wish I had too, in retrospect. But it’s like a car crash. You can’t stop looking to see how bad things can get.
Rob: Married to a Korean for over 8 years, been in Korea for over 7. This has never happened to me, neither in Seoul nor out of it, despite countless dining out trips and umpteen tours on line 1 of the subway (the one Metropolitician won’t use anymore because of anti-foreigner violence). I am clearly a non-Korean, and clearly punching above my weight class with my wife, as far as looks are concerned.
Marmot: Absolutely. I can’t believe this got published in the NYT magazine. Let’s have something from Suki Kim instead, or even you! Wow. I hope they lift their standards.
Geez, and to think I used to hesitate to send any of my writing into even the K Times, but with this getting in print I think I ought to throw caution to the win and just start sending my drivel off to any old rag that might give it an airing.
I can’t believe this got published in the NYT magazine.
Hello… it’s the New York Times.
I have experienced one of these encounters, but I wouldn’t have used it as a starting point for a piece in NYT Magazine.
How many times does this have to happen for it to be a problem for you people? Like a black dude saying, “I’ve lived here for 10 years and I can count the number of times I got called the ‘N-word’ on my right hand.”
Yes the guy is a bit goofy with his first Korean gf experience and all, but the point is valid. This kind of shit happens to foreigners in Korea. We all know it. Why shouldn’t the rest of the world?
Well, I got sympathy for the guy. I admit, it’s not something I’d write an essay about (nor did Hudson, as the excerpt above is a large part of his essay, but not all of it), but I’m surprised this guy doesn’t have more support from the readers of this blog. This happens to me a few times a year, and there are MANY other times when my girlfriend and I get dirty looks but no actual admonishments. It’s embarrassing, because every time, I can’t help but walk away with a worse impression of Korea (and I LIKE this place).
Maybe it’s cuz I don’t live in Seoul. But there’s no denying I live in Korea.
Is there a foreign man who has come to Korea and actually not experienced a situation like this?
This has happened to me scores of times over the years.
Marmot: “I came to Korea in 1997, and I can count the number of times something like this has happened to me on one hand.”
So Korean men were afraid about you stealing one of their Mongolian women??
If it sheds a bit more light on the ugliness behind the “Hanbok” “Kimchi” “5000 years of History” “Peace-loving victims” mask to the rest of the world; and, in so doing, exposing the need in the minds of Koreans here in Korea for some type of movement for change due to an international loss of face, I’m absolutely 100% all for it.
Racism is racism. It should never be tolerated, anywhere. There are absolutely no excuses for this type of ignorance; and it should be exposed: write it in the NYT, announce it on the BBC, find a wall and write it in blood. Just do something instead of accepting it as commonplace; because, by simply grinning and bearing it, you become accomplice to the crime folks.
is it possible the guy shares some responsibility for this? maybe he started mad doggin the k guy right after his wife told him he eats better than a korean man.
no matter what you say here, the nyt is a respected newspaper. the man’s choice of a subject makes him look bad. looks like he’s nursing a grudge.
just in case one of you gets aksed to write a piece in a us paper, here’s some suggested topics:
1. why you came to live in korea, a country most westerners know little about
2. how the advanced net infrastructure makes your life easier
3. is it safe to eat the food, walk the streets, and what about using the bathroom? can i find clean ones?
4. your impressions of overall life in korea. what do you do in korea from the time you get up in the morning? how different is your routine from any routine from anywhere, usa?
lastly, mr hudson(囧), i know you read this board. you should have known better.
This hasn’t happened to me or my wife since we got married almost seven years ago, except for us getting a few dirty looks and one shitty comment in Gwangju after a World Cup match. I had a few of minor situations like this out in Shinchon or Hongdae with old Korean girlfriends, but this would have been from ‘96 to ‘98. (Maybe nothing worth writing an essay about, but still pretty unpleasant, especially for the women in question.) I suspect that foreign/Korean dating is more tolerated than before. It may also be that once you and your wife are in your 30s and out in public with your kid that it ceases to be an issue for most Koreans.
well, to that end, this has happened to me here several times, and my gf is an american of vietnamese heritage. even more to the point, it happened before we even started dating, and were just friends, hanging out. the point being that koreans all too often assume the worst about foreigners and don’t mind exposing themselves as grossly ignorant in order to do so. as a korean co-worker so graciously tried to convince me, this particular reaction is not a result of fear of losing their women to a foreigner, but of ‘the history of foreigners getting korean girls pregnant and then running away’. which is why it struck as me as odd when i visited hiroshima and they didn’t treat me like i was going to drop an atomic bomb on the city.
Everybody, together now!
“We shall overcome
We shall overcome
We shall overcome
Some day…”
One wonders how we might feel about, say, a visiting Korean professor to NYU introducing his host city to Korean readers in the Weekly Chosun by recounting how he was harassed by black panhandlers (a common complaint I hear from Koreans returning from trips to major US cities). Sure, it happens all the time, but it seems like a rather odd thing to focus ones attention on.
OK, I’ve been out of the loop for a while, so please define “mad doggin” for me.
I do not know which is more embarrassing, bad PR for Korea or bad writing for the NYTimes.
He’s a writing instructor at Yonsei? I would have thought a freshman at a state school back home.
I should add that, yes, this is a quite awful topic for an NYT piece, and should Koreans get wind of it, the last thing it’s going to do is make them realize that this behavior is deplorable, and instead will only make them feel like they are being unfairly attacked.
“maybe he started mad doggin the k guy right after his wife told him he eats better than a korean man.”
Is that the best unlikely hypothetical excuse you can come up with. Lame.
The writing is really terrible. We all should have stopped reading at, “…and our chopsticks began to fly with joy.”
The school he teaches at should ask for its money back. And he should ask for his money back from his fancy school in the States. What a waste.
As for the actual subject, I agree with Globalvillageidiot. After a certain age and with rings on your fingers, Koreans tend to mellow out and only have nice things to say, if anything at all.
#17 Robert, you are a propaganda machine.. I hope your magazine wields you a lot of money.
Anytime someone wants to step up and do something about the blatant racism here, you patronize them and call their cause groundless.
Clearly, the way foreigners are treated here is awful and needs to change. But you somehow condone bad behavior. I hope your pockets are full.
I’m with Marmot here, this is not the best subject with which to start a column. I guess the incident really made an impression on him.
This type of thing has happened to me in Seoul, too, but it was rare, and only around the US Embassy. The combat policemen around the US Embassy used to be very rude to the girl I was with at the time. That was more than 10 years ago, though, and hasn’t happened since 1998. It has never happened anywhere else.
I can also say that I had a similar experience in San Francisco, so this rare type of behavior is not isolated to Korea. I’m sure there are more than one person out there who have had themselves rudely treated while in a large city anywhere in the world.
With just a few exceptions, I can say that my experience with Koreans on the street have been almost unanimously positive, even during the worst of the “anti-US” sentiment around 2002.
Most of the times I encounter ‘incidents’ is either when I’m by myself or especially when I’m with a group of Western, predominately, male friends.
When by myself I suppose they presume I don’t understand what they’re saying. It’s usually a one-liner two paces after they’ve walked by me. Sometimes, the braver guys have the courage to say it just before I walk by, all that needs is a glare in their direction and they either look down at the ground or laugh embarrassingly.
When with a group, a lot of locals really seem to become slightly intimidated and try to over-compensate to acting tough. Nothing ever really happens though. And truth be told, sometimes members of our group are probably not being as ‘culturally-sensitive’ as they could be.
Vast majority of the time, I’m probably treated better when with my gf.
I live in the sticks though so it probably affects things.
That said, Korea in this day and age should be trying harder to educate the more-nationalistic, insecure folks not to be overtly belligerent and hostile to foreigners. It’s doesn’t go well for the ‘Hub of Asia’ plans and all …
If it happened to him, it’s fair game for writing about it–anywhere. Just because Robert or anyone else wouldn’t pick this topic as his first submission to the NYT doesn’t mean this fellow shouldn’t. I also don’t see why the commenters here are picking on the guy. Or maybe I do: they’re usually looking to pick on someone–and it doesn’t really matter who. [Ho-hum.]
–
I completely concur with the observation about rings and kids.
Interesting. When I’m not being accused of being anti-Korean, I’m being accused of being Seoul’s foreign whore.
I assume by “blatant racism,” you are not referring to the blatant racism that lets just about any white body with a pulse get a job here.
Well, thank you, but no, my pockets could be fuller. Let me tell you, being a shill for The [Yellow] Man isn’t the most lucrative line of work.
Yes, the way some foreigners — mostly 3D workers from developing Asian nations — are treated is awful, but not the Western expat crowd. Are there inconveniences? Sure. Unpleasant incidents from time to time? Again, sure. But treated awfully? Get a grip.
Another long one. But that’s why they make a scroll button.
Well, my argument has been a conservative one — that the increasing amounts of negative mesia treatment of foreigners and rise in overall anti-foreign/anti-American sentiment since the 2000’s because of stuff from Ohno to the middle school girls to FTA and YTN, MBC, and KBS docs on the subject have increased the numbers of assholes actually acting out on the street. I’d say I started noticing it for real in the early 2002’s.
I came to Korea in 1994 and spent a good amount of time traveling between Seoul and Cheju, and I can count on one hand the number of negative experiences I had. I knew less Korean, was less familiar with the culture, and generally stuck out more than I do now.
Yet, for some reason, after around 2003 (not even 2002, when I came to live in Seoul again), suddenly people were harassing me. Suddenly, as I took the #1 line, I’d be a magnet for drunk ajussis. So, I stopped taking it.
Before, in Korea, I never had any foreign friends or colleagues who’d been too seriously harassed, although we all have our fair share of silly little encounters that actually made life in Korea interesting to surreal. But it certainly wasn’t very negative.
Now, I’ve had several female friends over the space of a year (since last summer) who’ve been physically assaulted by Korean men. Through continuing to be involved in the orientation sessions of the Fulbright ETA program, which now brings in about 50-60 fresh, eager, and very Korea-positive young graduates a year, and who certainly aren’t the yokels the Korean media seems to think we are, there have been three major incidents I know of, including one of which I was a part, when I was with a group of them during their first week in-country, and as a large group of very cheery and bright-eyed kids entered a hof to to sit and talk with the old hands about everything from homestays to how to learn Korean in the countryside, the last member of our party, a nice kid whom I had just met that day, was inexplicably hit over the back of the head with a metal folding chair. The only thing the person next to him saw was two men running away. He required more than 40 stitches, if I remember correctly. Welcome to Korea.
I’m not citing single incidents — as person in constant contact with groups of young people, say as with the ETA’s, or as in the summer Korean studies program I teach in, as well as other groups I work with (not to mentions my own experiences and what I now hear on the blog), I see a marked rise in incidents like these.
Sure, some people don’t get messed with. And I know many people think this is all exaggeration. I know this because I continue to get the occasional email that inevitably starts out like this: “I’ve read your blog and used to be kinda skeptical about the stuff you were saying, until this happened to me and my girlfriend last night, when we were…”
Most of the people who relay these stories to me admit that they themselves kind of looked askance at what I was describing. The fact that so many of my female friends have been physically assaultded this year is also perplexing and disturbing. Those of you who remember MissKoco and her blog might remember her as someone who had been very Korea-positive and happy here, until she was physically assaulted by a man in the middle of Hyehwa, literally in the middle of the street, by a man who had been following her and who pushed her down to the ground and proceeded to kick her while passersby did nothing. She left Korea in December, after having lived here for 4 years.
More recently, another friend, whom I recently saw at a function and was obviously being a trooper for having one side of her head obviously swollen and sporting an eyepatch, when I asked how she’d gotten hurt, she said she’d been the victim of an attempted rape, as the man had first hit her across the face to stun her before he tried to have his way with her, but she luckily came to enough to struggle free and get away.
On just the attacks on women alone, I know three more specific stories just off the top of my head, which have happened since last summer. The same is true for foreign men as well — I had simply never heard of this as a pattern before the 2000’s. Now, it’s something that I fear will happen and have to account for when managing any group of foreigners, from the students I teach to the yearly crop of ETA’s I give my little orientation presentation to.
Sure, it’s not the defining experience of the majority of foreigners here, but it sure is rising in frequency enough such that those of us working with larger samples sizes, and with young people who are fresh out of boot and who actually frequent places young 20-somethings go, such as Shinchon, Hongdae, and the like. It really is getting ridiculous, as someone who sometimes has to actually deal with the question, “Why is this happening?” or “What did I do to deserve this?”
I’ve found that the majority of people who dismiss this do so because, “Well, I seem to be fine. Nothing bad’s happened to me.” Well, the fact is that the majority of us won’t be assaulted, and the majority of people will be fine here. But my point has never been that we are all going to be having such experiences, but that the frequency of them has risen enough to garner my notice and alarm. It IS becoming a pattern, and it’s NO mystery to me why, considering the sensationalist and irresponsible journalism that I’ve seen, especially in the cases of the three documentaries I know about on the major networks.
So sure, Brendan, who is older, likely wears a suit to and from work, and probably walks a physical and social path through the city different from the average 23-year-old kid who doesn’t speak Korean, doesn’t know to keep the English to a dull roar in enclosed spaces, or who may not be as aware of a nasty stare or two if he’s walking with a Korean woman — I’m can only conjecture that people might see them differently. Robert is also perhaps not typical, in that he’s also an older man who wears a hanbok as a general rule.
In my case, I think that not being white has something to do with it, although who knows what it is that sets off ajussis on me? I just know the last time I was seriously harassed to the point of me nearly cracking and breaking the man’s face was when I was wearing a suit and tie, I was engrossed in watching BSG on my iPod facing the subway door with my back to everyone, and was completely engrossed in my own world. I had in-the-ear headphones at the time, and didn’t notice the ajussi screaming and yelling because my back had been towards him the entire time and I couldn’t hear anything at all. After being harassed in a suit and having never even laid eyes upon (let alone eye contact) with the idiot, I simply decided to stop taking the subway. Basically, not because I fear for my life so much as I feared that with the frequency of it, I might crack sometime and be one of those guys in the newspaper. Personally, I think my choice a responsible one, and far from the behavior of someone who courts trouble, as is the assumption of many who believe I somehow bring this upon myself.
Anyway, I see a pattern here. No matter what one thinks of the piece, I do think it’s telling that such stories about Korea are brimming over into popular representations of it, since I think the type of experience he had isn’t at all unusual these days.
Considering that I used to take out students all the time after tests and eat ddeokbokki with them and treat them to a movie or whatnot, and that this past weekend, after my students took their SAT II History tests and earned a well-deserved trip to Coex and a day in the sunlight to see Ironman, some young man continued to give me the evil eye as I talked with my students (3 female students) and sneered at me while I passed close by his to throw away our trash at the tray station. His gf patted his hand to tell him to stop it. And I certainly wasn’t courting trouble in front of my students. It’s just the way it is these days.
I remember in the 90’s a foreigner walking around with kids who are obviously their students used to receive smiles, or people thought it to be cute/quaint. I generally find that to be the case for older people. Yet, I’m smart enough to know that younger people don’t see this as a positive, and I’m sure some lurid snippets of some damned MBC documentary, or some snippet from a news article talking about foreigners threatening Korean children, probably was floating around in his mind.
My point is that as someone who lived here in the 90’s, things are as different as night and day now. I even keep my wits about me nowadays when walking with students. Some of you might think it’s nothing since such things haven’t happened to you directly, but I challenge you to think about why that might be, and to listen to some of those like me who are observing and experiencing what I consider to be a clear pattern, and likely relationship between popular representation in the Korean media and treatment of certain foreigners who seem to “fit the profile” certain Korean people (men) seem to have of us when they actually encounter us on the streets.
I agree, not the best subject, but I wouldn’t say it’s something to be ignored, either.
Saying it gets better after you get married is not a good excuse, nobody should have to put up with that. It’s racism. Married or no, people should be able to enjoy one another’s company without being harrassed.
I have had my share of these experiences, twice ending in a fist fight. Maybe it’s because I understand what they are saying, and it’s harder to ignore.
I’m with Nathan. The “don’t touch our women” drunken male hostility is a real issue, as embarrassing as it might be for Koreaphiles.
It doesn’t rank with the horrors inflicted on 3d workers in Suwon or NK refugees in China, and it’s drawfed by the many kindnesses a Westerner receives every day by Koreans. But it is an issue.
The belligerent adjoshi has long been old news for readers of the Hole, many of us who count our time in Korea in years if not decades.
But for most readers of the NYT magazine, this will be new to them, and it might even be interesting.
There’s more than a hint of “shut up newbie” in some of our comments, coupled with jealousy that this guy, fresh off the plane, got to write about Korea in the NYT Magazine.
Many foreigners here act as if these kinds of incidents only happen in Korea (”This kind of shit happens to foreigners in Korea. We all know it. Why shouldn’t the rest of the world?” - #9).
Foreigners in other places experience racism all the same. Just because you’re a “foreigner in Korea” doesn’t mean that you “suffer” any more than any other foreigner living in any other country. There are scores of people out there that “suffer” from such experiences much more than all of you combined, so please: try to put things in perspective before making such bold remarks.
I reluctantly would have to agree with Michael about an increase in hostility towards foreigners, especially if they thought to be an English teacher or American.
I do not know if this is a general trend in crime, here in Korea, but I have noticed more hostility where there was none in the past, even though I stay away from drinking places.
I absolutely agree with Michael that much of the hostility is likely from the sneaking character assassination dealt out by media companies, i.e., some producers at CJ, various smaller newspapers, certain producers at KBS, MBC, etc. No one, as of yet, has taken any of these media sources to court either and I am sure they will continue to pop up and snipe since this sort of politics seems useful for someone (?).
I’m with Rob here. This guy uses abrasive and hostile prose describing a senstive situation. C’mon, people you don’t break people’s faces or even suggest the possibility of it for someone waving their finger at your girlfriend!!!
No doubt he caught the attention of of the Korean man with his loud North American swagger in the restaurant. While that maybe a little unfair I’m sure he’s well pleased with himself that his bravado is gracing the pages of the NYT magazine.
For the record, in 6 years in Korea living in conservative places like Gyeongju as well as Seoul this sort of incident happen to me maybe 2.5 times.
Just feign indiffernce and ask politely not to be bothered. If this fails then stand up and ask again. More often than not someone else will tell the prick to take a hike as well. If soju is involved in larger crowds it might be time to move along. Breaking or threatening to break faces won’t solve anything except make you look like a class A prick.
NICE ONE BIG MAN!
My beef isn’t really with the topic (although I do think it wasn’t the best choice). My beef is with the lack of focus. What was his point? At first he’s just bragging about his job and apartment and implies that his girlfriend is hot. So far, it’s a little puff piece, no insight into anything except his ego and ho-hum writing skills.
Suddenly, out of nowhere, he recounts what I have to refer as His Defining Korea Moment. I think he put it in to make the article ‘interesting’, or provacative. I don’t think he was trying to make a point about racism in Korea, because he didn’t even bother to offer any support to the topic beyond,”That’s the downside to these Korean meals. Sometimes this kind of thing happens.”
man, this thread is proof the expat thinks korea revolves around him. lol.
‘mommy, mommy, some korean stared at me! it’s because i take his woman!’ exclaimed jonny expat in the nyt
Thank, Metropolitician for taking the time to write a clear and story-filled post (#29). It’s a good read.
Korea is quickly getting more and more multicultural and multiethnic. Like the beef protests, it is the vocal and violent minority that is resisting change. We have to remind Koreans that we are productive members of their society who have been invited here. We are not invaders living off the fat of the land… Ignoring a problem will only make it worse.
And shame on any of you Koreaphiles for sidelining this issue.
mad doggin = to glare at someone
I hated having to open a comment section after months of having avoided it, but I wanted to let you know that I think your rss feed is busted. I haven’t received any new updates in weeks. Did you update versions perhaps?
I just got jumped Friday night at about 3 am by a bunch of “Asians” in a store while I was buying a beer for the walk home. I can relate to being harassed quite clearly– like it was yesterday. Granted, I was drunk, and I probably shot my mouth off in reply to the demand that I buy this bunch of people some beer, but the outcome would not have happened quite the same way in a western country.
As I was buying my beer, a bunch of men demanded that I buy them beer too, to which I replied with something like “are you kidding me? No fuckin way!”. This resulted in me getting slammed into the cooler and then dragged outside by three guys and a beating by 5 more buddies waiting outside. The clerk came to my aid and, not knowing he was the clerk, I ended up punching him twice as he was trying to drag me away from this group of men. A local restaurant owner also witnessed the incident after, in a state of panic and anger I chucked the beer can I was still holden at the men attacking me, missed and broke the restaurant window.
The cops showed up and, seeing a white dude battling it out with a bunch of Asians, promptly wrestled me to the ground and slapped the cuffs on so tight, my wrists have bruises all the way around and my pinky and ring finger on one hand are numb from what I’m sure is nerve damage, two days later. I was thrown in the car and taken to the police station.
Meanwhile, the store clerk and restaurant owner were arguing with the cops over my treatment, because the both the clerk and the owner recognized the 8 men as local Mongolians who frequent a nearby bar and often cause trouble in the area. The police automatically assumed I started it and the translator I got, wouldn’t let me tell my side of the story, or call my wife. My phone was taken away and I was told to shut up, sit down and listen to what the cop was saying through the translator. I clammed up and refuse to do anything the translator asked until they got so frustrated with me they finally decided to call my wife. By this time the clerk and restaurant owner had also arrived at the station, and along with my wife, they finally convinced the cops I was the victim and the real criminals who should be sitting handcuffed (very tightly) to a bench were now sitting at a bar they always go to.
When I agreed to pay for the window I busted and the clerk’s glasses I broke when I hit him, 10 hours later, I was allowed to leave and go home. If I want any justice, my wife has to do the police’s job and get the CCTV footage from the store. Granted, the window and buddy’s glasses were my fault and I will/should replace them, but I would not have broken them unless I was attacked in the first place and as a victim, I had to still shell out 300,000 won.
The main difference in this fiasco, is in most western countries (contrary to stories you may here about police brutality) when a cop answers a call like this, they usually split the parties up and talk to them separately to find out the story and then make a decision on who to haul down to the station. Here, they saw a white foreigner fighting a bunch of Asians who weren’t Korean either, and assumed I caused it, forcibly manhandled me into a car and took me away– without even talking to the store clerk or the restaurant owner first– regardless whether I could speak Korean or not. And to boot, the translator who is supposed to be helping me, believes I’m guilty too without even talking to me about it.
take it as what you will, maybe I was rude to the Mongolians, they were rude to me, but it seems pretty unfair to me obviously since they are still walking around free and un-prosecuted.
@29 Preach it Mike! I lived in Korea in 2005, and on occasion things were HORRIBLE for myself and the young lady I was dating. I don’t wish to denigrate the average Korean-saram on the street, because buy-in-large they were fantastic to me, but on a number of times I’d have to count on TWO hands, things ended in physical confrontation. I guess my point is that these things DO happen, and it’s a little bit frustrating when other westerners try to convince you that you’re either lying or crazy when you explain to them that dating the person you care about is occasionally a dangerous proposition.
To whomever may take offense: I deeply love nearly all of the Korean people who i’ve had the pleasure of forming a tangible relationship with, it just seems like collectively there is no asshole quashing mechanism over there like there is here. Over in the US if somebody wants to be a racist piece of trash, it seems like they’re forced to do a better job of picking their spots.
MARMOT: “One wonders how we might feel about, say, a visiting Korean professor to NYU introducing his host city to Korean readers in the Weekly Chosun by recounting how he was harassed by black panhandlers (a common complaint I hear from Koreans returning from trips to major US cities).”
I think it’d be valid to complain about being harassed by panhandlers (Google News shows lots of hits for these type articles). If you were more upset by ‘black panhandlers’ than say, white or asian panhandlers though (which is what I hear from those Kommon Korean Komplainers) I’d have to say you were probably a big fat racist.
MARMOT: “I assume by ‘blatant racism,’ you are not referring to the blatant racism that lets just about any white body with a pulse get a job here.”
Yep. No one says you have to sing Kumbaya and shed a tear about it, but that’s what it is. Sometimes these prejudices work in one’s favor (see e.g. “The Lady Kyunghyang on dating the Big, ahem, Noser”) but they’re still prejudices. When Michael makes Stanley, the office black guy, play basketball cuz he’s got to be great at it (obscure “The Office” reference) it’s still racist - and really funny too cuz he can’t play for shit, like … uh… some of us foreigners here with a pulse who may be less than - oh, you get the idea.
And by the way, the NYT article did extol the virtues of Korean technology and the wonders of ‘Richyville’-type apartment living before it got to the more needling aspects of life in uri-nara.
Again, not defending the article (yawn) but do believe that the nastiness that the author points out deserves to be there. Different people come away from Korea with all kinds of ‘impressions’ - many of them varied and lovely (neat! the floors get hot!) but all too often there’s a particularly familiar and nasty one that visitors experience in common.
[P.S. I don't think the Marmot is either "anti-Korean" or a "foreign-whore" ^~^]
So will threatening to “break a man’s face” in an Insa-dong restaurant… I’m assuming in a foreign language (in this case, English)… and then writing about it in the New York Times. That’s easy enough to do with any major city around the world, and usually just about as helpful.
Oddly enough, I DO agree with Michael about that the situation today IS much different from the one in the 1990s, but in quite the opposite way — it used to be much worse. Although, I admit, this is clearly not the case for Michael, who gets more unwanted attention (and knows more people who have gotten unwanted attention) than anyone I know. Which is odd, for anyone who has met him, because he’s a rather pleasant fellow.
Gabe is a nice enough fellow when you meet him, but I would not want to get on his bad side. He might teach writing but he definitely has an edge. The Korean guy was lucky it worked out as well as it did.
http://www.gabehudson.com/
Joel, I’m getting updates in google reader, it might be your reader.
I liked the article.
G. Hudson: “In the beginning, before I understood precisely what was going on, I was exceedingly patient with these men.” That’s the way I was, too.
R. Koehler: “I can count the number of times something like this has happened to me on one hand.” I did a count for myself and came up with four times in five years in Korea. Three of those four times were in lovely Masan. None resulted in a physical confrontation, fortunately. In one case on the subway, I was thankful for the intervention by Koreans who asked the offending 아저씨 to temper the 민족 rhetoric.
Another poster: “[This issue] doesn’t rank with the horrors inflicted on 3d workers in Suwon or NK refugees in China, and it’s drawfed by the many kindnesses a Westerner receives every day by Koreans. But it is an issue.” Well said.
I am not surprised that since most of the responders live in Seoul this situation has never happened to them. I have lived in Korea for 4 years and am married to a Korean girl.
In Gyongsangbukdo or smaller towns this kind of thing is rampant. In 4 years I can easily say that the kind of thing mentioned in the article has happened to me more times than I can fit on two hands…and a foot.
I spent my first three years in Korea near Andong, Gyeongsangbukdo, and this sort of thing oddly wasn’t very rampant. I must just be lucky.
The Metro, telling it like it is. I have a similar story or worse to match each of his.
This was like reading an article on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder written by Pauly Shore. A legitimate issue that was handled sloppily and without the slightest attempt at any depth or understanding.
If he indeed chose to tackle the issue, he should have made a full effort rather than the clumsy tack-on it became. Instead of spending the first half of the article writing copy for a Korea Sparkling advertisement, he could’ve easily fleshed out a decent, thoughtful article about what it’s like to encounter these kinds of situations and what kind of impact it can have on the relationship and the way a foreign man chooses to behave in public with a Korean woman.
There are loads of dilemmas that arise when encountering these cro-magnon types (both before and after they occur), and he failed miserably in highlighting any of them. About the only thing he nailed was the line about the adjoshi “allowing himself to be dragged away by his wife,” which is the classic chickenshit move of realizing you’re about to get your ass handed to you, so you pretend that someone else is forcing you to back down. It’s a well-known adjoshi classic, second only to the open-handed half-slap, where the ’shi pulls back like he’s going to strike and then stops there with a menacing look on his face that says “I could follow through on that next time if you’re not careful!” Half-slaps usually come in bunches, with each advancing another inch or two closer to his opponent, but rarely ever developing into actual contact.
Unfortunately, 2 half-slaps do not equal one full punch followed through on…as many a ’shi have found out the hard way.
Yeah but #40, Robert thinks you should shut your mouth and enjoy your white privelege because he has to sell magazines
Well, baby needs a new pair of shoes.
You know, if foreigners are treated so AWFUL, there’s always the plane ticket home. Assuming you’re not in a Korean penitentiary or USFK, nobody is forcing to you to endure such AWFUL conditions.
Did Pow Pow suddenly figure out how to mimic Marmot’s handle on his own blog?
I think Gabe wrote the article a little too soon after the event, thus you can see the residual hostile feelings he still has. I don’t know, but to me, I think he probably wanted to write a more positive article on Korea, but that unfortunate incident did color his original subject. I mean read it. Korean food is good, technology is good, Insadong is pretty, his Korean students are respectful and diligent, etc.
I think a lot of what may get an ajusshi off is how pretty a girl is. If you are with a plain jane, you typically don’t get older Korean people looking at you. But if she’s a looker, ajusshi’s and especially ajommas will stare. Pretty people bring attention, some good some bad. When I had summer JC classes in Long Beach City College, I dated a few non-Asian women. Once it was a white girl who was plain looking and no one batted an eye. Next time I went to lunch a few with a white girl who was very attractive , you know, blonde, blue eyed, 5-7, slim (probably a size 2-4), etc. Boy did us hanging hanging out together in conservative Bixby-Knolls make me feel uncomfortable. White grannies would give us the stink eye and younger white people would do a double take (but I sensed no hostility from the younger people).
I know this is very different then an ajosshi getting in your grill, but my gut tells me that it’s certainly not just limited to Koreans. The idea of a multicultural society is a new one to Koreans and as others have mentioned, there will be resistance to this relatively new phenomenon. Sometimes this resistance will manifest itself in unpleasant incidents such as the one described by Gabe.
America also had resistance to a multicultural society. It’s still a living memory in certain parts of the country where if a black man even looked at a white women the wrong way he could be killed! There are also documented cases of Nisei (2nd generation Japanese Americans) men in the late 1930’s in Washington state given death threats for dating white women.
None of this obviously lessens the experience that multi-racial couples may have experienced in Korea today, but I guess my point is that when put in perspective, given Korea’s early exposure to an increasing multicultural society, Korea’s reaction is measurably less darker and I think that’s a fact that should be be remembered.
Sorry for all the grammatical errors. It’s 11:20pm here and I just came back from a get together where I had a few drinks.
“nobody is forcing to you to endure such AWFUL conditions”.
That is the truth. However, when each and every one of my male friends here who has dated a Korean (or another Asian) has a reem of these stories (myself included), you have to wonder how counter-productive this kind of behavior is to a country that constantly tries to sell itself to the world. I can count two similar incidents in the last six months here, in which my foreigness was taken as a sign to someone else to tell me either to shut up or go home. Face facts, these things are always about race, something this (as well as other countries, just for the retards like pawi btw) country has a massive issue with.
I have been teaching for three years in a rural elementary school about 2 hours outside of Seoul.
When I first arrived here, I was overwhelmed with the attenton I received from all my students. When my co-teacher ( unmarried young female )and I would try to sit down to do some planning, it would be impossable because the class was constantly filled with students looking to say “hello”, wanting to check out the new teacher.
One day while planning for an open class, I asked mu co-teacher if I could close the classroom door so we could avoid the carnage, and she turned white with fear and almost ran out of the room. I was of course taken back with her reaction, but later found out that some of the older male teachers warned her before my arrival that foreign men were not to be trusted and she should never allow me to attempt to get her in the class alone behind close doors.
Her and I took the same bus home. She would catch a subway train after my stop, but inevitably, for several months, she always found an excuse to stay at school longer than I had to. I found out that shortly after I left, she would leave. If perchance I happened to egt on the same bus coming to school, she would pretend to be sleeping. Its seems she didn’t want to deal with the stigma of sitting beside me on the bus and dealing with all the consequences that might arise.
Subsequently, these things became non-issues as she came to trust me and found the strength not to care about what others might think.
Regardless, many of my Korean female friends exercise(d) great caution when choosing when and where to be seen with me in public. Inevidably we would head all the way into Seoul to eat, because at least there they felt more comfortable. Our walks would be after the sun went down, and never was I allowed to walk them to their door ( I am a bit old fashioned that way ). And these were just friends.
I don’t blame them, and I am sure the closer to Seoul you get the easier these things are, but the attitude still rears its ugly head, even if it is behind your back or in the minds of those who know what is likely going on, even if you are blissfully unaware.
counting all my years in the US, I would run out of fingers to count the number of times different races said something racially inappropriate to me. This is counting childhood and adulthood. So, it’s not comparable. Also, many changes over many years.
the whites tend to be more subtle. if you were stupid, you might not realize it happenned.
the blacks and latinos are more blatant.
But, I have heard worser things from Koreans in Korea.
Say, a teacher saying,
“ni aemi, aebi ga,
geu rut kae ha ra go
ha deun?”
this, I believe got me more angry than any racial slight, ever did.
if I’m not mistaken, the Korean court recently awarded some kid some money for this classic mind game tactic of not only putting down the kid, but their parents at the same time.
live long enough, you see strange things.
“if I’m not mistaken, the Korean court recently awarded some kid some money for this classic mind game tactic of not only putting down the kid, but their parents at the same time.”
You’ve got to be kidding me. The Korean laws actually consider saying this phrase, which is pretty much the rite of passage for any person growing up in a Korean environment, a punishable crime?
That would be like making saying the phrase “Act your age” a crime.
#32, Annoyed: “Foreigners in other places experience racism all the same. Just because you’re a “foreigner in Korea” doesn’t mean that you “suffer” any more than any other foreigner living in any other country.”
This is false.
I don’t want to overdo the white-guy-victim thing, and I’m fond of Korea and Koreans.
But having lived in several countries in Northeast Asia, Southeast Asia and the Middle East, I can tell you from experience that Korea is… special.
I’m sure the Korean Times and Herald pat themselves on the back for publishing articles on the “multi-culturalisation” of Korea. Recently, a number of such articles citing statistics which prove a growing number of spousal immigrants to these shores, have been put to print. I’m concerned though, especially when I read this blog, that these articles (and without doubt the major Korean dailies as well) all seem to focus on Korean men marrying women of non-Korean background.
This growing trend is rightly celebrated as it should be in a globalising world. Where though are the stories of Korean women who have taken husbands (or long-term boyfriends) of non-Korean extraction? I’ve noted also how fetted the “foreign beauties” are when male Korean hosts ask them questions about Korean men.
As a in immigrant male married to a Korean female I often find it perplexing that I can be so welcomed into my Korean family yet be so ignored in Korean mainstream culture, despite the “evolving” reportage and coverage in mainstream media.
In all honesty, Korean racism is not really of a malignant nature since it stems from an inferiority complex rather than a superiority complex such as that found in white America or Nazi Germany.
I won’t use the term “endearing” because that would make it sound as if I am condoning racist/nationalistic thinking of Koreans. However, I believe that the brand of racism/bigotry found in Korea does not really warrant “anger” as a reaction from foreigners. Rather, I feel that a more appropriate reaction would be that of “sympathy” for what is more or less a pathetic and unfortunate malignancy of the Korean nation and character. Koreans basically feel shafted and short-changed as they would love more than anything to have had the glory and power that Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan once had or to bask in the glory and power and recognition that first world nations of today such as the US and Europe have. The fact that westerners are more familiar and and are more interested in China, Vietnam, Japan, etc. is very disheartening to Korea. Thus, the reason why they act racist is because it’s the only way to compensate for this insecurity and jealousy. It is not becauset they think they are superior to caucasians, etc. Rather, it is an inferiority complex. This actually makes me feel very sorry for Koreans since they basically are in the unfortunate situation in which their choice to compensate for feelings of inadequecies by overly going in the opposite direction (bragging and boasting of Korean historical achievements as evidence of superiority, bragging about how more phsically beautiful Korean people and culture is, etc.) makes them appear to be very immature and insecure. Thus, in the end, although they don’t realize it, the Koreans themselves, not foreigners, are their own worst enemy.
Therefore, I don’t think that the racism that foreigners feel here in Korea really are a dangerous threat. It’s highly unlikely that Koreans feel the need to exterminate whites or foreigners like the Nazis, KKK, or others with superiority-complex type racist mindsets have. If Koreans were of that tribe, then I would start to worry.
I have to agree with the Marmot that things seem to have gotten better. Koreans don’t seem to take as much interest in “mixed” couples as they once did. Then again, as I pointed out, I’m not out partying in Hongdae and Shinchon every weekend anymore.
Metro and Mikey - Not discounting in the least that you have had some bad experiences here - so have I - nor that things may have gotten worse for you in recent years. While most of the friends I have who have been here for a while think it is less of an issue than in the mid/late 90s, some still run into the same old shit.
And as someone who has to take Line #1 a few times/week, running into a drunken asshole who has a problem with foreigners isn’t unheard of. I was attacked by a guy with a metal paving tool a couple of years ago, had to take him down hard, and - with the willing assistance of a few Korean passengers - kept him pinned down from Noryangin to Yeongdeungpo until the railway police came and took him away. (They were apologetic. The guy in seemed to be somebody they were familiar with, and the Koreans on the train backed me up 100%.) Needless to say, I try to avoid Line #1 at night if I’m with the family.
Annoyed - Who is saying/thinking these things only happen here? This is a Korean blog, so racism here is likely to be the focus, don’t you think?
bbundaegi, I agree. I don’t think most of the racism one might encounter in Korea is really all that hate driven. More ignorance than hatred.
There’s much talk of racism here, but that’s only half the story, isn’t it? Ya’ll are missing the important other half.
FOR THE RECORD: The reason incidents like this bother me is not so much the RACISM, but the SEXISM. The asshole ajushi can say what they want to me, but I have much less tolerance for inappropriate comments about my lady.
These incidents show a very ugly side to Korea: people with a simultaneous hatred of other races and a shocking lack of respect for women. Pardon my righteous indignation, but those of you rolling their eyes as those of us who get worked up over things like this should really examine what, if anything, you stand for. And I wouldn’t think I had to say this, but: YES, I KNOW I’M HERE OF MY OWN VOLITION. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I FORFEIT MY VALUE SYSTEM, AND IT DOES NOT MEAN I SHOULDN’T EXPRESS AND ASSERT MYSELF WHEN MY VALUE SYSTEM IS CHALLENGED.
PS to pawi: Yes, of course, racism and sexism in Korea is the fault of foreigners. So is AIDS, drug use, crime, the IMF crisis, Typhoon Maemi, traffic jams, obesity, hangnails, undercooked samgyupsal, and anything else that goes wrong.
Granfalloon @ #65: Very well said indeed.
It’s a terrible situation. The girl feels awful cuz she’s been insulted by the ajushi, ashamed cuz of the treatment her bf has received by her ‘countrymen’, worried about how you’ll feel or react, etc., etc.
And as for the bf (as blueballs noted) how does one react? especially if you are a newcomer or the relationship is a new one (first time the couple been accosted)? Be “culturally sensitive” and don’t stand up for your gf being insulted (when a Korean guy would)? Or jump on the ajoshi and look like an insensitive aggressive foreigner?
It’s just a nasty situation that can seriously fuck up a nice date.
After he finished eating his gamjatang a Korean peasant blew his nose on my ski glove.
You think the NYT will be interested in my ski holiday stories?
I think the main point here is that Hudson touched upon a cultural issue without giving any clarification. We’re talking about not only Korean/American relations strained by decades of military occupation but also a country where ethnic homogeneity is very, very slowly being challenged (my half-Korean friend often says, “that blessed Hines Ward”). Those facts aren’t even glossed over in this piece, they’re completely ignored. It just ends up coming off as cultural insensitivity at best, and, at worst, a white man’s burden tale of exposing the foibles of native intolerance. But you know… perhaps this was a poor edit job? It happens.
As for the other comments on this entry: someone said “We have to remind Koreans that we are productive members of their society who have been invited here.” This is probably true. There is really nothing a single person can do to change the attitudes of a whole generation of crotchety post-war sexist/racist grandfathers. Foreigners in Korea need to band together and hire some better P.R. I’m a 23 y.o. Korean American girl, and both my 1.5-gen mother and old-country grandfather flipped out a couple weeks ago when they found out I planned to teach ESL at a Seoul hakwon for six months starting the end of June. According to my grandfather, ESL instructors were all drug-pushers, and by hanging out with such company, I was destined to a blemished C.V. and reputation (I believe a memoir just came out about a former ESL teacher’s stay in a Korean prison for hash smuggling). For my mother, it was more along the lines of how very not elite the work was, how the most uneducated American college drop-out could teach abroad. I suspect as the years pass, this will sort itself out: the older generation will… well, die, and Korea might institute a more formal English-teaching initiative like JET.
I have had experiences similar to those of Metro, and things on line #1 have always been bad. Even in 1990, when people were curious but mostly polite with foreigners, line #1 was a source of troubles. Must be the air or something…
I have been inside a Korean ER a couple of times because some [usually drunk] Korean guys didn’t agree with my being here. I usually took a couple of them with me to the ER, and this ensured I had to visit a police station a few times. Surprisingly, though, I was never booked, handcuffed, or else. I attribute this more to fluency in Korean, social status — back then, being a 초빙교수 “Invited Professor” helped — and connections than with fairness and proper justice.
I have many nice stories too, who wouldn’t in 12+ years spent in Seoul, but the nasty ones, especially those that started as an innocuous walk and ended at the ER, tend to stick. I have wonderful in-laws, well, most of them anyway, and a nice social circle, even after I left Korea. But every time I step in the subway, which is not very often now, I am tense, especially at night. It’s been a year and a half since I haven’t been harassed by a drunk, knock wood, and I’d rather not break any more bones.
I think there are waves that bring in anti-XXXX every few years, whether XXXX is specifically the US — and all foreigners are Americans, right? — or just plain ole Westerner. 1992 was very bad, for some reason. I remember Westerners would look away, as if embarrassed, when they’d cross another white man in the street, rather than say Hi! as was the custom. It went away, and came back, and again and again. The economic crisis and the IMF rescue plan was a bad time too, and this one took time to fade away.
And yes, there’s always the return ticket back home or wherever. Which I booked in October 2004. Now I get to enjoy Korea 4 to 6 days a month, on my own terms. Seoul’s never been so enjoyable, and I hope I can keep it that way. Then again, I know that even if I’m having a shitty week, by Friday night I’ll be back in Hong Kong, so it’s easy to put things in perspective…
Actually, I think that’s overthinking it a tad. It’s just that within any large community (and at 11 million people, Seoul would qualify as a “large community”), there are going to be at least a few (and probably more than a few) bigots and sexists. And sometimes, they make a scene. Shit happens. Instead, we come away with a piece — in the Times Magazine, of all places — that makes Seoul look far more xenophobic than it really is. Of course, maybe Soo is right, and it’s just a poor editing job on the NYT’s part.
This whole issue is so tame in comparison with the many other issues floating around in the dark swill of the Korean societal toilet bowl. Rampant prostitution, domestic abuse, child abuse, stress and depression, suicide, gambling, criminal driving habits, public safety and health nightmares, etc etc. Never read much about those issues. Do Koreans even understand the word “investigative” when it comes to journalism? Maybe the bloggers can start up a real revolution instead of rechewing Korean political claptrap.
Never read much about those issues? They’re in the news all the time.
#70 That is a great way to downplay everything written before your eyes in this very thread. Well done Mr. Keohler. You should be a politician.
“I suspect as the years pass, this will sort itself out: the older generation will… well, die, and Korea might institute a more formal English-teaching initiative like JET.”
Soo, I hope you’re right. They’ve had the their own attempt at a JET program - EPIK - running for more than a decade. More recently they’ve been trying to entice students - in particular, ones with Korean ethnicity - to essentially volunteer themselves to teach. Not surprisingly, not too many takers.
I also don’t think the piece gives a complete perspective on Korea, but I don’t know if it was intended to do anything more than offer one person’s short take on life in Seoul, or several aspects of it. Hopefully readers will take it for what it is.
I don’t mean this question to be facetious but, Mr. Marmot, do you think your wearing of a hanbok in public might play a role in your lack of confrontations?
It certainly doesn’t encourage confrontations
Robert,
Can you post a photo of yourself in a hanbok?
‘Did Pow Pow suddenly figure out how to mimic Marmot’s handle on his own blog?’
i left you a post in the open form. don’t want you to miss it. have a good day.
‘YES, I KNOW I’M HERE OF MY OWN VOLITION. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I FORFEIT MY VALUE SYSTEM, AND IT DOES NOT MEAN I SHOULDN’T EXPRESS AND ASSERT MYSELF WHEN MY VALUE SYSTEM IS CHALLENGED.’
the problem is, you want to force your value system on koreans for your own convenience. you want to create a korea in which every korean kisses your stinkin ass simply because you’re a westerner.
that’s why i feel very little sympathy for the expat’s occasional problems in korea.
wake up! you ain’t special. live understanding that and you’ll be just fine.
I agree with you to a certain extent, Mr. Marmot, because I hate when people make judgments about a massive population based on a few select bad apples. But rolling your eyes and saying “shit happens” is not always the appropriate response. At some point, you gotta make a stand. “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil . . .”
Also, for the record: Mr. Hudson’s article, for those who haven’t actually read it, is not about how bad ajoshi are, or racism, or skillful eating. If you’d bother to read to whole article, it’s actually about how Korea’s technological advancement has progressed much faster than its social advancement (perhaps Mr. Hudson has been too subtle, but I’m pretty sure that’s his point). If anyone would like to argue against that one, I’d love to hear what you have to say.
@pawi
Telling an ajoshi to shut the hell up is not “forcing” a value system on him. It’s telling him to shut the hell up.
Also, you’re on the verge of having to say that racial and gender equality are Western values that don’t apply in Korea, and this would make you sound like a fucking moron. So I highly suggest you back away from this cliff before you fall over.