Gabe Hudson, a creative writing instructor at Yonsei University, had a difficult experience with his girlfriend at an Insa-dong restaurant… and wrote about it in NYT Magazine:
About a month ago, Ja-Won and I sat down at a restaurant in this neighborhood — a traditional place with mandu dumplings the size of tennis balls. The food came, and our chopsticks began to fly with joy. I’m always the only Western person in the joint, and this may sound ridiculous, but it feels good when Ja-Won beams across the table and tells me that I “eat Korean food better than a Korean man.” At any rate, we were getting lost in the food. Then a loud Korean voice cut through it all. I looked up and saw a middle-aged Korean man in a suit leering over our table. He said something very rude-sounding to Ja-Won. I could only make out the word “American.” He wagged his finger at my girlfriend, stepping in closer.
That’s the downside to these Korean meals. Sometimes this kind of thing happens. My girlfriend says the Korean men don’t want to lose one of “their” women to an American guy. In the beginning, before I understood precisely what was going on, I was exceedingly patient with these men. But that night I stood up and, even though the man didn’t speak English, quickly communicated to him that I’d break his face if he came any closer. Seeing that I meant business, the man then allowed himself to be dragged away by his wife.
I should say that if I were in New York City and I saw a fellow American accosting a Korean man and his date this way, I’d want to break the American man’s face too. But that night in Seoul I had to admit to myself that it has been hard adjusting to life there these past several months. Other nights, Ja-Won and I will be at a restaurant and things will be much different. Our chopsticks will be flying. I won’t understand the language going on around me, and I won’t be able to fathom the simple miracle of how I came to be sitting there, but I will feel as if I belong.
Tough night out, eh?
Frankly, if I had a chance to contribute an article about Seoul to NYT Magazine, this probably wouldn’t be the topic I’d discuss, especially if I’d only been in country for a couple of months and knew nothing about the place, but hey, to each his own. After all, I didn’t teach at Princeton.
I came to Korea in 1997, and I can count the number of times something like this has happened to me on one hand. More specifically, it happened three times… and one of those was probably my fault. And I spent most of my time in places much less cosmopolitan than Insa-dong.
Anyway, I only hope this kind of thing isn’t happening to Mr. Hudson with regularity. Especially after only a few months in country. Wouldn’t want anyone to get their face broken, after all.
(HT to readers)
UPDATE: Writer’s website here.
{ 301 comments… read them below or add one }
Meh. This piece by “Gabe Hudson” reads as if it were the product of one Shelton Bumgarner.
I have a Korean girlfriend. She wears miniskirts. She says I am better than a Korean man. And tonight, I showed her.
No doot aboot it.
Stopped reading there.
hahaha…so his gf is probably only with him due to his money/status. Fair enough. But this is just another guy ruffing his feathers…lame
I’d cut the guy a little slack. If you’ve been in Korea any length of time and have a Korean girlfriend or wife (or both!), you’ve more than likely experienced one of these encounters. I admit that it’s been a while since my wife and I have had a bad public experience such as the one described above, we certainly have been through our share of them in the past.
Brendon: bahahaha. Hit the nail on the head!
Sonagi: I wish I had too, in retrospect. But it’s like a car crash. You can’t stop looking to see how bad things can get.
Rob: Married to a Korean for over 8 years, been in Korea for over 7. This has never happened to me, neither in Seoul nor out of it, despite countless dining out trips and umpteen tours on line 1 of the subway (the one Metropolitician won’t use anymore because of anti-foreigner violence). I am clearly a non-Korean, and clearly punching above my weight class with my wife, as far as looks are concerned.
Marmot: Absolutely. I can’t believe this got published in the NYT magazine. Let’s have something from Suki Kim instead, or even you! Wow. I hope they lift their standards.
Geez, and to think I used to hesitate to send any of my writing into even the K Times, but with this getting in print I think I ought to throw caution to the win and just start sending my drivel off to any old rag that might give it an airing.
I can’t believe this got published in the NYT magazine.
Hello… it’s the New York Times.
I have experienced one of these encounters, but I wouldn’t have used it as a starting point for a piece in NYT Magazine.
How many times does this have to happen for it to be a problem for you people? Like a black dude saying, “I’ve lived here for 10 years and I can count the number of times I got called the ‘N-word’ on my right hand.”
Yes the guy is a bit goofy with his first Korean gf experience and all, but the point is valid. This kind of shit happens to foreigners in Korea. We all know it. Why shouldn’t the rest of the world?
Well, I got sympathy for the guy. I admit, it’s not something I’d write an essay about (nor did Hudson, as the excerpt above is a large part of his essay, but not all of it), but I’m surprised this guy doesn’t have more support from the readers of this blog. This happens to me a few times a year, and there are MANY other times when my girlfriend and I get dirty looks but no actual admonishments. It’s embarrassing, because every time, I can’t help but walk away with a worse impression of Korea (and I LIKE this place).
Maybe it’s cuz I don’t live in Seoul. But there’s no denying I live in Korea.
Is there a foreign man who has come to Korea and actually not experienced a situation like this?
This has happened to me scores of times over the years.
Marmot: “I came to Korea in 1997, and I can count the number of times something like this has happened to me on one hand.”
So Korean men were afraid about you stealing one of their Mongolian women??
If it sheds a bit more light on the ugliness behind the “Hanbok” “Kimchi” “5000 years of History” “Peace-loving victims” mask to the rest of the world; and, in so doing, exposing the need in the minds of Koreans here in Korea for some type of movement for change due to an international loss of face, I’m absolutely 100% all for it.
Racism is racism. It should never be tolerated, anywhere. There are absolutely no excuses for this type of ignorance; and it should be exposed: write it in the NYT, announce it on the BBC, find a wall and write it in blood. Just do something instead of accepting it as commonplace; because, by simply grinning and bearing it, you become accomplice to the crime folks.
is it possible the guy shares some responsibility for this? maybe he started mad doggin the k guy right after his wife told him he eats better than a korean man.
no matter what you say here, the nyt is a respected newspaper. the man’s choice of a subject makes him look bad. looks like he’s nursing a grudge.
just in case one of you gets aksed to write a piece in a us paper, here’s some suggested topics:
1. why you came to live in korea, a country most westerners know little about
2. how the advanced net infrastructure makes your life easier
3. is it safe to eat the food, walk the streets, and what about using the bathroom? can i find clean ones?
4. your impressions of overall life in korea. what do you do in korea from the time you get up in the morning? how different is your routine from any routine from anywhere, usa?
lastly, mr hudson(囧), i know you read this board. you should have known better.
This hasn’t happened to me or my wife since we got married almost seven years ago, except for us getting a few dirty looks and one shitty comment in Gwangju after a World Cup match. I had a few of minor situations like this out in Shinchon or Hongdae with old Korean girlfriends, but this would have been from ’96 to ’98. (Maybe nothing worth writing an essay about, but still pretty unpleasant, especially for the women in question.) I suspect that foreign/Korean dating is more tolerated than before. It may also be that once you and your wife are in your 30s and out in public with your kid that it ceases to be an issue for most Koreans.
well, to that end, this has happened to me here several times, and my gf is an american of vietnamese heritage. even more to the point, it happened before we even started dating, and were just friends, hanging out. the point being that koreans all too often assume the worst about foreigners and don’t mind exposing themselves as grossly ignorant in order to do so. as a korean co-worker so graciously tried to convince me, this particular reaction is not a result of fear of losing their women to a foreigner, but of ‘the history of foreigners getting korean girls pregnant and then running away’. which is why it struck as me as odd when i visited hiroshima and they didn’t treat me like i was going to drop an atomic bomb on the city.
Everybody, together now!
“We shall overcome
We shall overcome
We shall overcome
Some day…”
One wonders how we might feel about, say, a visiting Korean professor to NYU introducing his host city to Korean readers in the Weekly Chosun by recounting how he was harassed by black panhandlers (a common complaint I hear from Koreans returning from trips to major US cities). Sure, it happens all the time, but it seems like a rather odd thing to focus ones attention on.
OK, I’ve been out of the loop for a while, so please define “mad doggin” for me.
I do not know which is more embarrassing, bad PR for Korea or bad writing for the NYTimes.
He’s a writing instructor at Yonsei? I would have thought a freshman at a state school back home.
I should add that, yes, this is a quite awful topic for an NYT piece, and should Koreans get wind of it, the last thing it’s going to do is make them realize that this behavior is deplorable, and instead will only make them feel like they are being unfairly attacked.
“maybe he started mad doggin the k guy right after his wife told him he eats better than a korean man.”
Is that the best unlikely hypothetical excuse you can come up with. Lame.
The writing is really terrible. We all should have stopped reading at, “…and our chopsticks began to fly with joy.”
The school he teaches at should ask for its money back. And he should ask for his money back from his fancy school in the States. What a waste.
As for the actual subject, I agree with Globalvillageidiot. After a certain age and with rings on your fingers, Koreans tend to mellow out and only have nice things to say, if anything at all.
#17 Robert, you are a propaganda machine.. I hope your magazine wields you a lot of money.
Anytime someone wants to step up and do something about the blatant racism here, you patronize them and call their cause groundless.
Clearly, the way foreigners are treated here is awful and needs to change. But you somehow condone bad behavior. I hope your pockets are full.
I’m with Marmot here, this is not the best subject with which to start a column. I guess the incident really made an impression on him.
This type of thing has happened to me in Seoul, too, but it was rare, and only around the US Embassy. The combat policemen around the US Embassy used to be very rude to the girl I was with at the time. That was more than 10 years ago, though, and hasn’t happened since 1998. It has never happened anywhere else.
I can also say that I had a similar experience in San Francisco, so this rare type of behavior is not isolated to Korea. I’m sure there are more than one person out there who have had themselves rudely treated while in a large city anywhere in the world.
With just a few exceptions, I can say that my experience with Koreans on the street have been almost unanimously positive, even during the worst of the “anti-US” sentiment around 2002.
Most of the times I encounter ‘incidents’ is either when I’m by myself or especially when I’m with a group of Western, predominately, male friends.
When by myself I suppose they presume I don’t understand what they’re saying. It’s usually a one-liner two paces after they’ve walked by me. Sometimes, the braver guys have the courage to say it just before I walk by, all that needs is a glare in their direction and they either look down at the ground or laugh embarrassingly.
When with a group, a lot of locals really seem to become slightly intimidated and try to over-compensate to acting tough. Nothing ever really happens though. And truth be told, sometimes members of our group are probably not being as ‘culturally-sensitive’ as they could be.
Vast majority of the time, I’m probably treated better when with my gf.
I live in the sticks though so it probably affects things.
That said, Korea in this day and age should be trying harder to educate the more-nationalistic, insecure folks not to be overtly belligerent and hostile to foreigners. It’s doesn’t go well for the ‘Hub of Asia’ plans and all …
If it happened to him, it’s fair game for writing about it–anywhere. Just because Robert or anyone else wouldn’t pick this topic as his first submission to the NYT doesn’t mean this fellow shouldn’t. I also don’t see why the commenters here are picking on the guy. Or maybe I do: they’re usually looking to pick on someone–and it doesn’t really matter who. [Ho-hum.]
–
I completely concur with the observation about rings and kids.
Interesting. When I’m not being accused of being anti-Korean, I’m being accused of being Seoul’s foreign whore.
I assume by “blatant racism,” you are not referring to the blatant racism that lets just about any white body with a pulse get a job here.
Well, thank you, but no, my pockets could be fuller. Let me tell you, being a shill for The [Yellow] Man isn’t the most lucrative line of work.
Yes, the way some foreigners — mostly 3D workers from developing Asian nations — are treated is awful, but not the Western expat crowd. Are there inconveniences? Sure. Unpleasant incidents from time to time? Again, sure. But treated awfully? Get a grip.
Another long one. But that’s why they make a scroll button.
Well, my argument has been a conservative one — that the increasing amounts of negative mesia treatment of foreigners and rise in overall anti-foreign/anti-American sentiment since the 2000′s because of stuff from Ohno to the middle school girls to FTA and YTN, MBC, and KBS docs on the subject have increased the numbers of assholes actually acting out on the street. I’d say I started noticing it for real in the early 2002′s.
I came to Korea in 1994 and spent a good amount of time traveling between Seoul and Cheju, and I can count on one hand the number of negative experiences I had. I knew less Korean, was less familiar with the culture, and generally stuck out more than I do now.
Yet, for some reason, after around 2003 (not even 2002, when I came to live in Seoul again), suddenly people were harassing me. Suddenly, as I took the #1 line, I’d be a magnet for drunk ajussis. So, I stopped taking it.
Before, in Korea, I never had any foreign friends or colleagues who’d been too seriously harassed, although we all have our fair share of silly little encounters that actually made life in Korea interesting to surreal. But it certainly wasn’t very negative.
Now, I’ve had several female friends over the space of a year (since last summer) who’ve been physically assaulted by Korean men. Through continuing to be involved in the orientation sessions of the Fulbright ETA program, which now brings in about 50-60 fresh, eager, and very Korea-positive young graduates a year, and who certainly aren’t the yokels the Korean media seems to think we are, there have been three major incidents I know of, including one of which I was a part, when I was with a group of them during their first week in-country, and as a large group of very cheery and bright-eyed kids entered a hof to to sit and talk with the old hands about everything from homestays to how to learn Korean in the countryside, the last member of our party, a nice kid whom I had just met that day, was inexplicably hit over the back of the head with a metal folding chair. The only thing the person next to him saw was two men running away. He required more than 40 stitches, if I remember correctly. Welcome to Korea.
I’m not citing single incidents — as person in constant contact with groups of young people, say as with the ETA’s, or as in the summer Korean studies program I teach in, as well as other groups I work with (not to mentions my own experiences and what I now hear on the blog), I see a marked rise in incidents like these.
Sure, some people don’t get messed with. And I know many people think this is all exaggeration. I know this because I continue to get the occasional email that inevitably starts out like this: “I’ve read your blog and used to be kinda skeptical about the stuff you were saying, until this happened to me and my girlfriend last night, when we were…”
Most of the people who relay these stories to me admit that they themselves kind of looked askance at what I was describing. The fact that so many of my female friends have been physically assaultded this year is also perplexing and disturbing. Those of you who remember MissKoco and her blog might remember her as someone who had been very Korea-positive and happy here, until she was physically assaulted by a man in the middle of Hyehwa, literally in the middle of the street, by a man who had been following her and who pushed her down to the ground and proceeded to kick her while passersby did nothing. She left Korea in December, after having lived here for 4 years.
More recently, another friend, whom I recently saw at a function and was obviously being a trooper for having one side of her head obviously swollen and sporting an eyepatch, when I asked how she’d gotten hurt, she said she’d been the victim of an attempted rape, as the man had first hit her across the face to stun her before he tried to have his way with her, but she luckily came to enough to struggle free and get away.
On just the attacks on women alone, I know three more specific stories just off the top of my head, which have happened since last summer. The same is true for foreign men as well — I had simply never heard of this as a pattern before the 2000′s. Now, it’s something that I fear will happen and have to account for when managing any group of foreigners, from the students I teach to the yearly crop of ETA’s I give my little orientation presentation to.
Sure, it’s not the defining experience of the majority of foreigners here, but it sure is rising in frequency enough such that those of us working with larger samples sizes, and with young people who are fresh out of boot and who actually frequent places young 20-somethings go, such as Shinchon, Hongdae, and the like. It really is getting ridiculous, as someone who sometimes has to actually deal with the question, “Why is this happening?” or “What did I do to deserve this?”
I’ve found that the majority of people who dismiss this do so because, “Well, I seem to be fine. Nothing bad’s happened to me.” Well, the fact is that the majority of us won’t be assaulted, and the majority of people will be fine here. But my point has never been that we are all going to be having such experiences, but that the frequency of them has risen enough to garner my notice and alarm. It IS becoming a pattern, and it’s NO mystery to me why, considering the sensationalist and irresponsible journalism that I’ve seen, especially in the cases of the three documentaries I know about on the major networks.
So sure, Brendan, who is older, likely wears a suit to and from work, and probably walks a physical and social path through the city different from the average 23-year-old kid who doesn’t speak Korean, doesn’t know to keep the English to a dull roar in enclosed spaces, or who may not be as aware of a nasty stare or two if he’s walking with a Korean woman — I’m can only conjecture that people might see them differently. Robert is also perhaps not typical, in that he’s also an older man who wears a hanbok as a general rule.
In my case, I think that not being white has something to do with it, although who knows what it is that sets off ajussis on me? I just know the last time I was seriously harassed to the point of me nearly cracking and breaking the man’s face was when I was wearing a suit and tie, I was engrossed in watching BSG on my iPod facing the subway door with my back to everyone, and was completely engrossed in my own world. I had in-the-ear headphones at the time, and didn’t notice the ajussi screaming and yelling because my back had been towards him the entire time and I couldn’t hear anything at all. After being harassed in a suit and having never even laid eyes upon (let alone eye contact) with the idiot, I simply decided to stop taking the subway. Basically, not because I fear for my life so much as I feared that with the frequency of it, I might crack sometime and be one of those guys in the newspaper. Personally, I think my choice a responsible one, and far from the behavior of someone who courts trouble, as is the assumption of many who believe I somehow bring this upon myself.
Anyway, I see a pattern here. No matter what one thinks of the piece, I do think it’s telling that such stories about Korea are brimming over into popular representations of it, since I think the type of experience he had isn’t at all unusual these days.
Considering that I used to take out students all the time after tests and eat ddeokbokki with them and treat them to a movie or whatnot, and that this past weekend, after my students took their SAT II History tests and earned a well-deserved trip to Coex and a day in the sunlight to see Ironman, some young man continued to give me the evil eye as I talked with my students (3 female students) and sneered at me while I passed close by his to throw away our trash at the tray station. His gf patted his hand to tell him to stop it. And I certainly wasn’t courting trouble in front of my students. It’s just the way it is these days.
I remember in the 90′s a foreigner walking around with kids who are obviously their students used to receive smiles, or people thought it to be cute/quaint. I generally find that to be the case for older people. Yet, I’m smart enough to know that younger people don’t see this as a positive, and I’m sure some lurid snippets of some damned MBC documentary, or some snippet from a news article talking about foreigners threatening Korean children, probably was floating around in his mind.
My point is that as someone who lived here in the 90′s, things are as different as night and day now. I even keep my wits about me nowadays when walking with students. Some of you might think it’s nothing since such things haven’t happened to you directly, but I challenge you to think about why that might be, and to listen to some of those like me who are observing and experiencing what I consider to be a clear pattern, and likely relationship between popular representation in the Korean media and treatment of certain foreigners who seem to “fit the profile” certain Korean people (men) seem to have of us when they actually encounter us on the streets.
I agree, not the best subject, but I wouldn’t say it’s something to be ignored, either.
Saying it gets better after you get married is not a good excuse, nobody should have to put up with that. It’s racism. Married or no, people should be able to enjoy one another’s company without being harrassed.
I have had my share of these experiences, twice ending in a fist fight. Maybe it’s because I understand what they are saying, and it’s harder to ignore.
I’m with Nathan. The “don’t touch our women” drunken male hostility is a real issue, as embarrassing as it might be for Koreaphiles.
It doesn’t rank with the horrors inflicted on 3d workers in Suwon or NK refugees in China, and it’s drawfed by the many kindnesses a Westerner receives every day by Koreans. But it is an issue.
The belligerent adjoshi has long been old news for readers of the Hole, many of us who count our time in Korea in years if not decades.
But for most readers of the NYT magazine, this will be new to them, and it might even be interesting.
There’s more than a hint of “shut up newbie” in some of our comments, coupled with jealousy that this guy, fresh off the plane, got to write about Korea in the NYT Magazine.
Many foreigners here act as if these kinds of incidents only happen in Korea (“This kind of shit happens to foreigners in Korea. We all know it. Why shouldn’t the rest of the world?” – #9).
Foreigners in other places experience racism all the same. Just because you’re a “foreigner in Korea” doesn’t mean that you “suffer” any more than any other foreigner living in any other country. There are scores of people out there that “suffer” from such experiences much more than all of you combined, so please: try to put things in perspective before making such bold remarks.
I reluctantly would have to agree with Michael about an increase in hostility towards foreigners, especially if they thought to be an English teacher or American.
I do not know if this is a general trend in crime, here in Korea, but I have noticed more hostility where there was none in the past, even though I stay away from drinking places.
I absolutely agree with Michael that much of the hostility is likely from the sneaking character assassination dealt out by media companies, i.e., some producers at CJ, various smaller newspapers, certain producers at KBS, MBC, etc. No one, as of yet, has taken any of these media sources to court either and I am sure they will continue to pop up and snipe since this sort of politics seems useful for someone (?).
I’m with Rob here. This guy uses abrasive and hostile prose describing a senstive situation. C’mon, people you don’t break people’s faces or even suggest the possibility of it for someone waving their finger at your girlfriend!!!
No doubt he caught the attention of of the Korean man with his loud North American swagger in the restaurant. While that maybe a little unfair I’m sure he’s well pleased with himself that his bravado is gracing the pages of the NYT magazine.
For the record, in 6 years in Korea living in conservative places like Gyeongju as well as Seoul this sort of incident happen to me maybe 2.5 times.
Just feign indiffernce and ask politely not to be bothered. If this fails then stand up and ask again. More often than not someone else will tell the prick to take a hike as well. If soju is involved in larger crowds it might be time to move along. Breaking or threatening to break faces won’t solve anything except make you look like a class A prick.
NICE ONE BIG MAN!
My beef isn’t really with the topic (although I do think it wasn’t the best choice). My beef is with the lack of focus. What was his point? At first he’s just bragging about his job and apartment and implies that his girlfriend is hot. So far, it’s a little puff piece, no insight into anything except his ego and ho-hum writing skills.
Suddenly, out of nowhere, he recounts what I have to refer as His Defining Korea Moment. I think he put it in to make the article ‘interesting’, or provacative. I don’t think he was trying to make a point about racism in Korea, because he didn’t even bother to offer any support to the topic beyond,”That’s the downside to these Korean meals. Sometimes this kind of thing happens.”
man, this thread is proof the expat thinks korea revolves around him. lol.
‘mommy, mommy, some korean stared at me! it’s because i take his woman!’ exclaimed jonny expat in the nyt
Thank, Metropolitician for taking the time to write a clear and story-filled post (#29). It’s a good read.
Korea is quickly getting more and more multicultural and multiethnic. Like the beef protests, it is the vocal and violent minority that is resisting change. We have to remind Koreans that we are productive members of their society who have been invited here. We are not invaders living off the fat of the land… Ignoring a problem will only make it worse.
And shame on any of you Koreaphiles for sidelining this issue.
mad doggin = to glare at someone
I hated having to open a comment section after months of having avoided it, but I wanted to let you know that I think your rss feed is busted. I haven’t received any new updates in weeks. Did you update versions perhaps?
I just got jumped Friday night at about 3 am by a bunch of “Asians” in a store while I was buying a beer for the walk home. I can relate to being harassed quite clearly– like it was yesterday. Granted, I was drunk, and I probably shot my mouth off in reply to the demand that I buy this bunch of people some beer, but the outcome would not have happened quite the same way in a western country.
As I was buying my beer, a bunch of men demanded that I buy them beer too, to which I replied with something like “are you kidding me? No fuckin way!”. This resulted in me getting slammed into the cooler and then dragged outside by three guys and a beating by 5 more buddies waiting outside. The clerk came to my aid and, not knowing he was the clerk, I ended up punching him twice as he was trying to drag me away from this group of men. A local restaurant owner also witnessed the incident after, in a state of panic and anger I chucked the beer can I was still holden at the men attacking me, missed and broke the restaurant window.
The cops showed up and, seeing a white dude battling it out with a bunch of Asians, promptly wrestled me to the ground and slapped the cuffs on so tight, my wrists have bruises all the way around and my pinky and ring finger on one hand are numb from what I’m sure is nerve damage, two days later. I was thrown in the car and taken to the police station.
Meanwhile, the store clerk and restaurant owner were arguing with the cops over my treatment, because the both the clerk and the owner recognized the 8 men as local Mongolians who frequent a nearby bar and often cause trouble in the area. The police automatically assumed I started it and the translator I got, wouldn’t let me tell my side of the story, or call my wife. My phone was taken away and I was told to shut up, sit down and listen to what the cop was saying through the translator. I clammed up and refuse to do anything the translator asked until they got so frustrated with me they finally decided to call my wife. By this time the clerk and restaurant owner had also arrived at the station, and along with my wife, they finally convinced the cops I was the victim and the real criminals who should be sitting handcuffed (very tightly) to a bench were now sitting at a bar they always go to.
When I agreed to pay for the window I busted and the clerk’s glasses I broke when I hit him, 10 hours later, I was allowed to leave and go home. If I want any justice, my wife has to do the police’s job and get the CCTV footage from the store. Granted, the window and buddy’s glasses were my fault and I will/should replace them, but I would not have broken them unless I was attacked in the first place and as a victim, I had to still shell out 300,000 won.
The main difference in this fiasco, is in most western countries (contrary to stories you may here about police brutality) when a cop answers a call like this, they usually split the parties up and talk to them separately to find out the story and then make a decision on who to haul down to the station. Here, they saw a white foreigner fighting a bunch of Asians who weren’t Korean either, and assumed I caused it, forcibly manhandled me into a car and took me away– without even talking to the store clerk or the restaurant owner first– regardless whether I could speak Korean or not. And to boot, the translator who is supposed to be helping me, believes I’m guilty too without even talking to me about it.
take it as what you will, maybe I was rude to the Mongolians, they were rude to me, but it seems pretty unfair to me obviously since they are still walking around free and un-prosecuted.
@29 Preach it Mike! I lived in Korea in 2005, and on occasion things were HORRIBLE for myself and the young lady I was dating. I don’t wish to denigrate the average Korean-saram on the street, because buy-in-large they were fantastic to me, but on a number of times I’d have to count on TWO hands, things ended in physical confrontation. I guess my point is that these things DO happen, and it’s a little bit frustrating when other westerners try to convince you that you’re either lying or crazy when you explain to them that dating the person you care about is occasionally a dangerous proposition.
To whomever may take offense: I deeply love nearly all of the Korean people who i’ve had the pleasure of forming a tangible relationship with, it just seems like collectively there is no asshole quashing mechanism over there like there is here. Over in the US if somebody wants to be a racist piece of trash, it seems like they’re forced to do a better job of picking their spots.
MARMOT: “One wonders how we might feel about, say, a visiting Korean professor to NYU introducing his host city to Korean readers in the Weekly Chosun by recounting how he was harassed by black panhandlers (a common complaint I hear from Koreans returning from trips to major US cities).”
I think it’d be valid to complain about being harassed by panhandlers (Google News shows lots of hits for these type articles). If you were more upset by ‘black panhandlers’ than say, white or asian panhandlers though (which is what I hear from those Kommon Korean Komplainers) I’d have to say you were probably a big fat racist.
MARMOT: “I assume by ‘blatant racism,’ you are not referring to the blatant racism that lets just about any white body with a pulse get a job here.”
Yep. No one says you have to sing Kumbaya and shed a tear about it, but that’s what it is. Sometimes these prejudices work in one’s favor (see e.g. “The Lady Kyunghyang on dating the Big, ahem, Noser”) but they’re still prejudices. When Michael makes Stanley, the office black guy, play basketball cuz he’s got to be great at it (obscure “The Office” reference) it’s still racist – and really funny too cuz he can’t play for shit, like … uh… some of us foreigners here with a pulse who may be less than – oh, you get the idea.
And by the way, the NYT article did extol the virtues of Korean technology and the wonders of ‘Richyville’-type apartment living before it got to the more needling aspects of life in uri-nara.
Again, not defending the article (yawn) but do believe that the nastiness that the author points out deserves to be there. Different people come away from Korea with all kinds of ‘impressions’ – many of them varied and lovely (neat! the floors get hot!) but all too often there’s a particularly familiar and nasty one that visitors experience in common.
[P.S. I don't think the Marmot is either "anti-Korean" or a "foreign-whore" ^~^]
So will threatening to “break a man’s face” in an Insa-dong restaurant… I’m assuming in a foreign language (in this case, English)… and then writing about it in the New York Times. That’s easy enough to do with any major city around the world, and usually just about as helpful.
Oddly enough, I DO agree with Michael about that the situation today IS much different from the one in the 1990s, but in quite the opposite way — it used to be much worse. Although, I admit, this is clearly not the case for Michael, who gets more unwanted attention (and knows more people who have gotten unwanted attention) than anyone I know. Which is odd, for anyone who has met him, because he’s a rather pleasant fellow.
Gabe is a nice enough fellow when you meet him, but I would not want to get on his bad side. He might teach writing but he definitely has an edge. The Korean guy was lucky it worked out as well as it did.
http://www.gabehudson.com/
Joel, I’m getting updates in google reader, it might be your reader.
I liked the article.
G. Hudson: “In the beginning, before I understood precisely what was going on, I was exceedingly patient with these men.” That’s the way I was, too.
R. Koehler: “I can count the number of times something like this has happened to me on one hand.” I did a count for myself and came up with four times in five years in Korea. Three of those four times were in lovely Masan. None resulted in a physical confrontation, fortunately. In one case on the subway, I was thankful for the intervention by Koreans who asked the offending 아저씨 to temper the 민족 rhetoric.
Another poster: “[This issue] doesn’t rank with the horrors inflicted on 3d workers in Suwon or NK refugees in China, and it’s drawfed by the many kindnesses a Westerner receives every day by Koreans. But it is an issue.” Well said.
I am not surprised that since most of the responders live in Seoul this situation has never happened to them. I have lived in Korea for 4 years and am married to a Korean girl.
In Gyongsangbukdo or smaller towns this kind of thing is rampant. In 4 years I can easily say that the kind of thing mentioned in the article has happened to me more times than I can fit on two hands…and a foot.
I spent my first three years in Korea near Andong, Gyeongsangbukdo, and this sort of thing oddly wasn’t very rampant. I must just be lucky.
The Metro, telling it like it is. I have a similar story or worse to match each of his.
This was like reading an article on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder written by Pauly Shore. A legitimate issue that was handled sloppily and without the slightest attempt at any depth or understanding.
If he indeed chose to tackle the issue, he should have made a full effort rather than the clumsy tack-on it became. Instead of spending the first half of the article writing copy for a Korea Sparkling advertisement, he could’ve easily fleshed out a decent, thoughtful article about what it’s like to encounter these kinds of situations and what kind of impact it can have on the relationship and the way a foreign man chooses to behave in public with a Korean woman.
There are loads of dilemmas that arise when encountering these cro-magnon types (both before and after they occur), and he failed miserably in highlighting any of them. About the only thing he nailed was the line about the adjoshi “allowing himself to be dragged away by his wife,” which is the classic chickenshit move of realizing you’re about to get your ass handed to you, so you pretend that someone else is forcing you to back down. It’s a well-known adjoshi classic, second only to the open-handed half-slap, where the ‘shi pulls back like he’s going to strike and then stops there with a menacing look on his face that says “I could follow through on that next time if you’re not careful!” Half-slaps usually come in bunches, with each advancing another inch or two closer to his opponent, but rarely ever developing into actual contact.
Unfortunately, 2 half-slaps do not equal one full punch followed through on…as many a ‘shi have found out the hard way.
Yeah but #40, Robert thinks you should shut your mouth and enjoy your white privelege because he has to sell magazines
Well, baby needs a new pair of shoes.
You know, if foreigners are treated so AWFUL, there’s always the plane ticket home. Assuming you’re not in a Korean penitentiary or USFK, nobody is forcing to you to endure such AWFUL conditions.
Did Pow Pow suddenly figure out how to mimic Marmot’s handle on his own blog?
I think Gabe wrote the article a little too soon after the event, thus you can see the residual hostile feelings he still has. I don’t know, but to me, I think he probably wanted to write a more positive article on Korea, but that unfortunate incident did color his original subject. I mean read it. Korean food is good, technology is good, Insadong is pretty, his Korean students are respectful and diligent, etc.
I think a lot of what may get an ajusshi off is how pretty a girl is. If you are with a plain jane, you typically don’t get older Korean people looking at you. But if she’s a looker, ajusshi’s and especially ajommas will stare. Pretty people bring attention, some good some bad. When I had summer JC classes in Long Beach City College, I dated a few non-Asian women. Once it was a white girl who was plain looking and no one batted an eye. Next time I went to lunch a few with a white girl who was very attractive , you know, blonde, blue eyed, 5-7, slim (probably a size 2-4), etc. Boy did us hanging hanging out together in conservative Bixby-Knolls make me feel uncomfortable. White grannies would give us the stink eye and younger white people would do a double take (but I sensed no hostility from the younger people).
I know this is very different then an ajosshi getting in your grill, but my gut tells me that it’s certainly not just limited to Koreans. The idea of a multicultural society is a new one to Koreans and as others have mentioned, there will be resistance to this relatively new phenomenon. Sometimes this resistance will manifest itself in unpleasant incidents such as the one described by Gabe.
America also had resistance to a multicultural society. It’s still a living memory in certain parts of the country where if a black man even looked at a white women the wrong way he could be killed! There are also documented cases of Nisei (2nd generation Japanese Americans) men in the late 1930′s in Washington state given death threats for dating white women.
None of this obviously lessens the experience that multi-racial couples may have experienced in Korea today, but I guess my point is that when put in perspective, given Korea’s early exposure to an increasing multicultural society, Korea’s reaction is measurably less darker and I think that’s a fact that should be be remembered.
Sorry for all the grammatical errors. It’s 11:20pm here and I just came back from a get together where I had a few drinks.
“nobody is forcing to you to endure such AWFUL conditions”.
That is the truth. However, when each and every one of my male friends here who has dated a Korean (or another Asian) has a reem of these stories (myself included), you have to wonder how counter-productive this kind of behavior is to a country that constantly tries to sell itself to the world. I can count two similar incidents in the last six months here, in which my foreigness was taken as a sign to someone else to tell me either to shut up or go home. Face facts, these things are always about race, something this (as well as other countries, just for the retards like pawi btw) country has a massive issue with.
I have been teaching for three years in a rural elementary school about 2 hours outside of Seoul.
When I first arrived here, I was overwhelmed with the attenton I received from all my students. When my co-teacher ( unmarried young female )and I would try to sit down to do some planning, it would be impossable because the class was constantly filled with students looking to say “hello”, wanting to check out the new teacher.
One day while planning for an open class, I asked mu co-teacher if I could close the classroom door so we could avoid the carnage, and she turned white with fear and almost ran out of the room. I was of course taken back with her reaction, but later found out that some of the older male teachers warned her before my arrival that foreign men were not to be trusted and she should never allow me to attempt to get her in the class alone behind close doors.
Her and I took the same bus home. She would catch a subway train after my stop, but inevitably, for several months, she always found an excuse to stay at school longer than I had to. I found out that shortly after I left, she would leave. If perchance I happened to egt on the same bus coming to school, she would pretend to be sleeping. Its seems she didn’t want to deal with the stigma of sitting beside me on the bus and dealing with all the consequences that might arise.
Subsequently, these things became non-issues as she came to trust me and found the strength not to care about what others might think.
Regardless, many of my Korean female friends exercise(d) great caution when choosing when and where to be seen with me in public. Inevidably we would head all the way into Seoul to eat, because at least there they felt more comfortable. Our walks would be after the sun went down, and never was I allowed to walk them to their door ( I am a bit old fashioned that way ). And these were just friends.
I don’t blame them, and I am sure the closer to Seoul you get the easier these things are, but the attitude still rears its ugly head, even if it is behind your back or in the minds of those who know what is likely going on, even if you are blissfully unaware.
counting all my years in the US, I would run out of fingers to count the number of times different races said something racially inappropriate to me. This is counting childhood and adulthood. So, it’s not comparable. Also, many changes over many years.
the whites tend to be more subtle. if you were stupid, you might not realize it happenned.
the blacks and latinos are more blatant.
But, I have heard worser things from Koreans in Korea.
Say, a teacher saying,
“ni aemi, aebi ga,
geu rut kae ha ra go
ha deun?”
this, I believe got me more angry than any racial slight, ever did.
if I’m not mistaken, the Korean court recently awarded some kid some money for this classic mind game tactic of not only putting down the kid, but their parents at the same time.
live long enough, you see strange things.
“if I’m not mistaken, the Korean court recently awarded some kid some money for this classic mind game tactic of not only putting down the kid, but their parents at the same time.”
You’ve got to be kidding me. The Korean laws actually consider saying this phrase, which is pretty much the rite of passage for any person growing up in a Korean environment, a punishable crime?
That would be like making saying the phrase “Act your age” a crime.
#32, Annoyed: “Foreigners in other places experience racism all the same. Just because you’re a “foreigner in Korea” doesn’t mean that you “suffer” any more than any other foreigner living in any other country.”
This is false.
I don’t want to overdo the white-guy-victim thing, and I’m fond of Korea and Koreans.
But having lived in several countries in Northeast Asia, Southeast Asia and the Middle East, I can tell you from experience that Korea is… special.
I’m sure the Korean Times and Herald pat themselves on the back for publishing articles on the “multi-culturalisation” of Korea. Recently, a number of such articles citing statistics which prove a growing number of spousal immigrants to these shores, have been put to print. I’m concerned though, especially when I read this blog, that these articles (and without doubt the major Korean dailies as well) all seem to focus on Korean men marrying women of non-Korean background.
This growing trend is rightly celebrated as it should be in a globalising world. Where though are the stories of Korean women who have taken husbands (or long-term boyfriends) of non-Korean extraction? I’ve noted also how fetted the “foreign beauties” are when male Korean hosts ask them questions about Korean men.
As a in immigrant male married to a Korean female I often find it perplexing that I can be so welcomed into my Korean family yet be so ignored in Korean mainstream culture, despite the “evolving” reportage and coverage in mainstream media.
In all honesty, Korean racism is not really of a malignant nature since it stems from an inferiority complex rather than a superiority complex such as that found in white America or Nazi Germany.
I won’t use the term “endearing” because that would make it sound as if I am condoning racist/nationalistic thinking of Koreans. However, I believe that the brand of racism/bigotry found in Korea does not really warrant “anger” as a reaction from foreigners. Rather, I feel that a more appropriate reaction would be that of “sympathy” for what is more or less a pathetic and unfortunate malignancy of the Korean nation and character. Koreans basically feel shafted and short-changed as they would love more than anything to have had the glory and power that Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan once had or to bask in the glory and power and recognition that first world nations of today such as the US and Europe have. The fact that westerners are more familiar and and are more interested in China, Vietnam, Japan, etc. is very disheartening to Korea. Thus, the reason why they act racist is because it’s the only way to compensate for this insecurity and jealousy. It is not becauset they think they are superior to caucasians, etc. Rather, it is an inferiority complex. This actually makes me feel very sorry for Koreans since they basically are in the unfortunate situation in which their choice to compensate for feelings of inadequecies by overly going in the opposite direction (bragging and boasting of Korean historical achievements as evidence of superiority, bragging about how more phsically beautiful Korean people and culture is, etc.) makes them appear to be very immature and insecure. Thus, in the end, although they don’t realize it, the Koreans themselves, not foreigners, are their own worst enemy.
Therefore, I don’t think that the racism that foreigners feel here in Korea really are a dangerous threat. It’s highly unlikely that Koreans feel the need to exterminate whites or foreigners like the Nazis, KKK, or others with superiority-complex type racist mindsets have. If Koreans were of that tribe, then I would start to worry.
I have to agree with the Marmot that things seem to have gotten better. Koreans don’t seem to take as much interest in “mixed” couples as they once did. Then again, as I pointed out, I’m not out partying in Hongdae and Shinchon every weekend anymore.
Metro and Mikey – Not discounting in the least that you have had some bad experiences here – so have I – nor that things may have gotten worse for you in recent years. While most of the friends I have who have been here for a while think it is less of an issue than in the mid/late 90s, some still run into the same old shit.
And as someone who has to take Line #1 a few times/week, running into a drunken asshole who has a problem with foreigners isn’t unheard of. I was attacked by a guy with a metal paving tool a couple of years ago, had to take him down hard, and – with the willing assistance of a few Korean passengers – kept him pinned down from Noryangin to Yeongdeungpo until the railway police came and took him away. (They were apologetic. The guy in seemed to be somebody they were familiar with, and the Koreans on the train backed me up 100%.) Needless to say, I try to avoid Line #1 at night if I’m with the family.
Annoyed – Who is saying/thinking these things only happen here? This is a Korean blog, so racism here is likely to be the focus, don’t you think?
bbundaegi, I agree. I don’t think most of the racism one might encounter in Korea is really all that hate driven. More ignorance than hatred.
There’s much talk of racism here, but that’s only half the story, isn’t it? Ya’ll are missing the important other half.
FOR THE RECORD: The reason incidents like this bother me is not so much the RACISM, but the SEXISM. The asshole ajushi can say what they want to me, but I have much less tolerance for inappropriate comments about my lady.
These incidents show a very ugly side to Korea: people with a simultaneous hatred of other races and a shocking lack of respect for women. Pardon my righteous indignation, but those of you rolling their eyes as those of us who get worked up over things like this should really examine what, if anything, you stand for. And I wouldn’t think I had to say this, but: YES, I KNOW I’M HERE OF MY OWN VOLITION. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I FORFEIT MY VALUE SYSTEM, AND IT DOES NOT MEAN I SHOULDN’T EXPRESS AND ASSERT MYSELF WHEN MY VALUE SYSTEM IS CHALLENGED.
PS to pawi: Yes, of course, racism and sexism in Korea is the fault of foreigners. So is AIDS, drug use, crime, the IMF crisis, Typhoon Maemi, traffic jams, obesity, hangnails, undercooked samgyupsal, and anything else that goes wrong.
Granfalloon @ #65: Very well said indeed.
It’s a terrible situation. The girl feels awful cuz she’s been insulted by the ajushi, ashamed cuz of the treatment her bf has received by her ‘countrymen’, worried about how you’ll feel or react, etc., etc.
And as for the bf (as blueballs noted) how does one react? especially if you are a newcomer or the relationship is a new one (first time the couple been accosted)? Be “culturally sensitive” and don’t stand up for your gf being insulted (when a Korean guy would)? Or jump on the ajoshi and look like an insensitive aggressive foreigner?
It’s just a nasty situation that can seriously fuck up a nice date.
After he finished eating his gamjatang a Korean peasant blew his nose on my ski glove.
You think the NYT will be interested in my ski holiday stories?
I think the main point here is that Hudson touched upon a cultural issue without giving any clarification. We’re talking about not only Korean/American relations strained by decades of military occupation but also a country where ethnic homogeneity is very, very slowly being challenged (my half-Korean friend often says, “that blessed Hines Ward”). Those facts aren’t even glossed over in this piece, they’re completely ignored. It just ends up coming off as cultural insensitivity at best, and, at worst, a white man’s burden tale of exposing the foibles of native intolerance. But you know… perhaps this was a poor edit job? It happens.
As for the other comments on this entry: someone said “We have to remind Koreans that we are productive members of their society who have been invited here.” This is probably true. There is really nothing a single person can do to change the attitudes of a whole generation of crotchety post-war sexist/racist grandfathers. Foreigners in Korea need to band together and hire some better P.R. I’m a 23 y.o. Korean American girl, and both my 1.5-gen mother and old-country grandfather flipped out a couple weeks ago when they found out I planned to teach ESL at a Seoul hakwon for six months starting the end of June. According to my grandfather, ESL instructors were all drug-pushers, and by hanging out with such company, I was destined to a blemished C.V. and reputation (I believe a memoir just came out about a former ESL teacher’s stay in a Korean prison for hash smuggling). For my mother, it was more along the lines of how very not elite the work was, how the most uneducated American college drop-out could teach abroad. I suspect as the years pass, this will sort itself out: the older generation will… well, die, and Korea might institute a more formal English-teaching initiative like JET.
I have had experiences similar to those of Metro, and things on line #1 have always been bad. Even in 1990, when people were curious but mostly polite with foreigners, line #1 was a source of troubles. Must be the air or something…
I have been inside a Korean ER a couple of times because some [usually drunk] Korean guys didn’t agree with my being here. I usually took a couple of them with me to the ER, and this ensured I had to visit a police station a few times. Surprisingly, though, I was never booked, handcuffed, or else. I attribute this more to fluency in Korean, social status — back then, being a 초빙교수 “Invited Professor” helped — and connections than with fairness and proper justice.
I have many nice stories too, who wouldn’t in 12+ years spent in Seoul, but the nasty ones, especially those that started as an innocuous walk and ended at the ER, tend to stick. I have wonderful in-laws, well, most of them anyway, and a nice social circle, even after I left Korea. But every time I step in the subway, which is not very often now, I am tense, especially at night. It’s been a year and a half since I haven’t been harassed by a drunk, knock wood, and I’d rather not break any more bones.
I think there are waves that bring in anti-XXXX every few years, whether XXXX is specifically the US — and all foreigners are Americans, right? — or just plain ole Westerner. 1992 was very bad, for some reason. I remember Westerners would look away, as if embarrassed, when they’d cross another white man in the street, rather than say Hi! as was the custom. It went away, and came back, and again and again. The economic crisis and the IMF rescue plan was a bad time too, and this one took time to fade away.
And yes, there’s always the return ticket back home or wherever. Which I booked in October 2004. Now I get to enjoy Korea 4 to 6 days a month, on my own terms. Seoul’s never been so enjoyable, and I hope I can keep it that way. Then again, I know that even if I’m having a shitty week, by Friday night I’ll be back in Hong Kong, so it’s easy to put things in perspective…
Actually, I think that’s overthinking it a tad. It’s just that within any large community (and at 11 million people, Seoul would qualify as a “large community”), there are going to be at least a few (and probably more than a few) bigots and sexists. And sometimes, they make a scene. Shit happens. Instead, we come away with a piece — in the Times Magazine, of all places — that makes Seoul look far more xenophobic than it really is. Of course, maybe Soo is right, and it’s just a poor editing job on the NYT’s part.
This whole issue is so tame in comparison with the many other issues floating around in the dark swill of the Korean societal toilet bowl. Rampant prostitution, domestic abuse, child abuse, stress and depression, suicide, gambling, criminal driving habits, public safety and health nightmares, etc etc. Never read much about those issues. Do Koreans even understand the word “investigative” when it comes to journalism? Maybe the bloggers can start up a real revolution instead of rechewing Korean political claptrap.
Never read much about those issues? They’re in the news all the time.
#70 That is a great way to downplay everything written before your eyes in this very thread. Well done Mr. Keohler. You should be a politician.
“I suspect as the years pass, this will sort itself out: the older generation will… well, die, and Korea might institute a more formal English-teaching initiative like JET.”
Soo, I hope you’re right. They’ve had the their own attempt at a JET program – EPIK – running for more than a decade. More recently they’ve been trying to entice students – in particular, ones with Korean ethnicity – to essentially volunteer themselves to teach. Not surprisingly, not too many takers.
I also don’t think the piece gives a complete perspective on Korea, but I don’t know if it was intended to do anything more than offer one person’s short take on life in Seoul, or several aspects of it. Hopefully readers will take it for what it is.
I don’t mean this question to be facetious but, Mr. Marmot, do you think your wearing of a hanbok in public might play a role in your lack of confrontations?
It certainly doesn’t encourage confrontations
Robert,
Can you post a photo of yourself in a hanbok?
‘Did Pow Pow suddenly figure out how to mimic Marmot’s handle on his own blog?’
i left you a post in the open form. don’t want you to miss it. have a good day.
‘YES, I KNOW I’M HERE OF MY OWN VOLITION. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I FORFEIT MY VALUE SYSTEM, AND IT DOES NOT MEAN I SHOULDN’T EXPRESS AND ASSERT MYSELF WHEN MY VALUE SYSTEM IS CHALLENGED.’
the problem is, you want to force your value system on koreans for your own convenience. you want to create a korea in which every korean kisses your stinkin ass simply because you’re a westerner.
that’s why i feel very little sympathy for the expat’s occasional problems in korea.
wake up! you ain’t special. live understanding that and you’ll be just fine.
I agree with you to a certain extent, Mr. Marmot, because I hate when people make judgments about a massive population based on a few select bad apples. But rolling your eyes and saying “shit happens” is not always the appropriate response. At some point, you gotta make a stand. “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil . . .”
Also, for the record: Mr. Hudson’s article, for those who haven’t actually read it, is not about how bad ajoshi are, or racism, or skillful eating. If you’d bother to read to whole article, it’s actually about how Korea’s technological advancement has progressed much faster than its social advancement (perhaps Mr. Hudson has been too subtle, but I’m pretty sure that’s his point). If anyone would like to argue against that one, I’d love to hear what you have to say.
@pawi
Telling an ajoshi to shut the hell up is not “forcing” a value system on him. It’s telling him to shut the hell up.
Also, you’re on the verge of having to say that racial and gender equality are Western values that don’t apply in Korea, and this would make you sound like a fucking moron. So I highly suggest you back away from this cliff before you fall over.
‘it’s actually about how Korea’s technological advancement has progressed much faster than its social advancement…’
yet another example of the expat’s lack of perspective.
“Instead, we come away with a piece — in the Times Magazine, of all places — that makes Seoul look far more xenophobic than it really is …”
I’m sorry I’m scratching my head on this one.
News flooded with stories about druggy, AIDS-ridden foreign scum. The government implements criminal backgrounds checks on all foreign teachers. People rioting in the streets because America wants to poison its citizens with its tainted beef. Everybody furiously blogging away about all these issues.
And then a guy writes about an ajoshi bugging him and his girl because he’s a foreigner . . . and oh! he’s making Korea look more xenophobic than it is!! Korea’s only a little xenophobic – you know in a quirky cute, hussle your ass to the clinic for your AIDS-test, kinda way. But hey, shit happens. What country doesn’t have its problems. If you don’t love it, leave it.
What Hudson mentions in his article is one of the many symptoms of the disease called “xenophobia.” (In Korean: “Foreigner no good,” as my quirky cute cab driver translated it for me this morning. Oh you kooky koreans!)
let’s some this up: the average expat here who has similar gripe can tell us that on average, a k man bothering him and his girlfriend has happened 5 to 10 times in as many years. now, any person who takes the time to think about it should wonder if the expat ever notices the millions of times k men pay him no mind.
the issue put forth by nyt guest writer is not a problem for your average expat but rather a problem of nyt guest writer. shame he put out his dirty laundry in such a place like that. this form would have been a more appropriate avenue.
most of the world could care less about the minor problems the expat has in korea. the writer should have known better.
The problem with Hudson’s story, imho, was not the subject matter, but the piss-poor writing. As others have pointed out, it was like two or three ideas just smushed together, by someone who had no depth of knowledge about Korea and did not have the wit to tell his story well. Was that Hudson’s fault for writing poorly or the editor’s fault for not editing the story well? I have no idea. Given Hudson’s resume, I assume he can write well when he wants to. But that particular story was really lame.
That issue of the Magazine was pretty poor, in general, not just that story. But (as the saying goes) (kind of), I find writing about architecture is like dancing about architecture.
#79 – pawi, if we aren’t special then why do you follow us around like a mangy 똥개.
This kind of racist BS is a problem in Korea for non-Koreans and I’m glad the guy gave it the attention it deserves. Take a look at the postings – this has happened to almost all of us here. This is Korea’s dirty laundry, so Pawi, and those with an interest in promoting Korea’s image abroad are unhappy. Well, Korea will only become a better place if these problems are addressed, rather than ignored. Powerful Koreans care about Korea’s image abroad and now have an incentive to act to improve multi-cultural awareness here.
Do your chopsticks fly when you eat?
Nice advice, pawi. Koreans should wake up too and realize they ain’t special. If they lived understanding that, everyone would get along much better.
Two perfect gems in one thread.
seouldout:
and Gomdoree:
That’s some truly fine blogwork.
Number 68, Soo
“We’re talking about not only Korean/American relations strained by decades of military occupation”
You can thank my neighbor, a man in his 70s now who is still traumatized by his experiences in the ‘military occupation’ you talk about. 19 years old and sitting in a fox hole in Uijeongbu, scared witless he perpetuated the cruel phenomenon you so righteously cite so your relatives could be forced to the west to perpetuate the racist nonsense you cited from them. Sometimes I wish that the likes of him had never come here so that your generation of pampered twits could have experienced the occupation of juche and spent your summers being hauled off in trucks to weed turnip fields rather than experiencing bourgeois luxuries such as a gap year. Take your 386 generation-inspired, insipid intellectual wank to the nearest Hanchongryon claque where it would be more appreciated.
I’d say that the guys who say nothing or little of the sort has ever happened to them are board trollers who don’t get out much.
9 years in and I’ve been harassed multiple times, including a similar one to #40: I got jumped, the cops came, and tried to arrest me because K-Dude looked more busted up. This was in 2002 just after the AFK incident, and buddy sucker punched me and told me to get out of his country. My crime? Walking down the street. Once it was all sorted out and a witness backed my side of the story, the cops passed it off as some crazy guy. Never mind that when they came, they detained me and did nothing to stop the K-Dude who had suddenly refound his courage and decided to take a few more shots at me while the cops were holding me.
I’m with the Metropolitician that there has indeed been an increase in open hostility towards foreigners here in my time, and I’d agree that unprincipled news reporters have played a huge role in it. Which one of you guys dated that reporter’s sister and then dumped her when she demanded the $800 Gucci bag? It’s all your fault!
aaronm,
Go a little easy on the 23 year old chica. Do wonder why we lack female commenters at the ‘hole.
aaronm,
Go a little easy on the 23 year old chica. No wonder why we lack female commenters at the ‘hole.
I’d be equally as harsh on anyone, male, female or neuter who posted such nonsense on this site, or any other.
Why are so many young kyopos under the misapprehension that Korea is “occupied” by the U.S. military? Who is feeding them this line?
The gallant knight offers the idiot vagina pass to a damsel in distress.
Well done, sire.
For those of you who think there are not some people paying attention to attacks on foreigners, you are wrong. The US embassy does, as they cleary advise visitors to exercise caution when visiting the Hongdae or Shinchon areas. Point this out to Koreans sometime, especially when they give you that “All of America is so dangerous” or “Itaewon is so dangerous” or, my personal favorite “Foreigners are so dangerous”. When they see / hear this statement from the US State Dept. their mouths literally hit the floor. Not saying that there arent dangerous spots in the US (or any country for that matter) but we are talking about Korea here and clearly attacks by random Koreans against Westerners is starting to get noticed by at least one Western embassy.
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1018.html
Wangkon936 says:
“aaronm,
Go a little easy on the 23 year old chica. Do wonder why we lack female commenters at the ‘hole.”
I think he was generous. Pure idiocy like hers deserve the one-word treatment:
Michinyun.
Indeed it is, Captain Korea. And if our people don’t getcha our cows will. You had better not visit.
Just doing my part to lessen the workload of those in our embassy’s visa office.
Sorry for the above ad hominem comment but being a Burkean conservative of sorts, I despise those who lack any sense of moral proportion.
It isn’t merely that such a rhetoric (Americans are “military occupiers” in South Korea?!) is descriptively inaccurate and therefore indicative of a lack of intellectual judgment on those who discharge it. (Yes, I choose the term “discharge” for purpose, because “speech” in Western intellectual tradition, has always presumed some connection with rationality.) More troubling, it is morally irresponsible, given that it undermines existing arrangements that are best under the circumstances–or at any rate better than the alternatives–by inflaming immoderate, impossible expectations.
This is probably why I am so harsh toward the immoderate Western critics of “Asian values” like, for instance, the former NYT columnist Bill Safire–who has a habit of equating men like Lee Kuan Yew with Hitler.
I have a hard time reconciling the accolades on that fellow’s website with his NYT essay. Keep those chopsticks flying, my brother.
I’m not sure if comments like aaronm’s are enough to keep women from commenting here or whether she deserved it, but calling people names like that, Won, surely will do a lovely job of keeping this place the sausage fest it is.
“I’d be equally as harsh on anyone, male, female or neuter who posted such nonsense on this site, or any other.”
Surely you would have more sympathy and understanding for the unfortunate ones who have been neutered.
While Soo’s rhetorics concerning the American troops in Korea are misguided at best, the rest of her argument points to a rational thought (fighting negative stereotyping with organized PR efforts is a great idea, I think), leading me to believe that the ‘occupation’ comment was a mild moment of online ‘foot-in-mouth’.
While what happened to the professor was a vintage 아저씨-involved bullshit, I can’t help but wanting to say this to the professor. “Assholes? In the middle of a large urban area with the population of 10 million+? Heavens to Betsy! What is this world coming to?!”
#68 I think you’re totally right.
what is 1.5 generation?
# 105,
1.5 Generation refers to immigrants who were technically born in the mother country but raised most of their lives in the host country, so they may the resemble 2nd generation in terms of language skills and outward assimilation, but are generally less assimilated mentally than the 2nd generation.
so what do koreans consider first generation?
there’s a new article about korean kids going to school in NZ in the NYT.
103, a great example of Korean apologia. She’s just young and misguided and not really the barking Trotskyite her words would imply. Next you’ll be singing in unison with Pawi and telling us Rhie won bok was just as mistaken! How great it must be when your ethnic bretheren can do no wrong.
If you are born in the USA, or come to the USA as a child immigrant you are first generation.
“How great it must be when your ethnic bretheren can do no wrong.”
Sarcasm on.
Yes, saying that she probably misspoke considering all her other point is about how racism in Korea are bad and that those points don’t jibe at all with “America = Evil Occupier” is such a “great example of Korean apologia”. And I’m so saying that my ethnic brethren can do no wrong when I just said she had a foot-in-mouth moment.
Sarcasm off.
And why would I be saying she’s just young and misguided? I’m younger than her, if she’s 23.
Really annoying.
“We have to remind Koreans that we are productive members of their society who have been invited here. We are not invaders living off the fat of the land… Ignoring a problem will only make it worse.” – #37
Sounds like something an immigrant working in any of your home countries would be saying. Stop being pussies, and just accept the fact and move on. There are others out there who suffer from the same experiences that you all do, and don’t make such a big fuss about it.
# 110,
Technically, if you are born in the U.S.A, you are second generation. If you are born outside the U.S.A you are first generation. The term 1.5 gen is one that was recently invented by cultural anthropologists to explain the vast differences between immigrants who came to the U.S. and children vs. immigrants who came to the U.S. as older adults.
Leave aside the quality of this fellow’s writing — this sort of thing is not rare in Korea, and when it does happen, it tends to overshadow the quality of one’s dining and sightseeing experiences.
My wife and I have had several of these experiences. My leaving had more to do with the Army than it did with those experiences, but the very intensity and prevalance of this sort of attitude is a big part of why we’ve gone back as infrequently as possible since then. Now that we have small childen, we don’t have a very high tolerance for this kind of crap.
(This is to say nothing of the experiences my friends and clients related to me, which are probably too numerous to relate here. And frankly, Michael is a magnet for this for the same rather obvious reasons reported by many of my African-American clients. Let’s just say it: blacks are treated the worst. I’m rather amazed that Michael is so tolerant of how he has been treated in Korea.)
Now, I suppose singing “We shall overcome” wasn’t meant as a serious solution, but since many commenters agree that this is not an uncommon occurrence, some fair warning to potential visitors and some shame for Korean society would seem to be an appropriate reaction.
In any event, it seems more constructive than suggesting that people draw up cartoon stereotypes of Koreans.
Is Korea more prone to this sort of behavior than other places? I’d say so. I’ve traveled in literally dozens of other countries (admittedly, briefly in many of them) but haven’t been confronted with nearly as much immediate hostility in other places as I have in Korea. My Korean wife and I have never had an unpleasant or racist experience in the six years we’ve been back in the States, and that includes plenty of day-trips to small rural towns in Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, and Pennsylvania.
This is known as “national Darwinism.” If you mistreat tourists and business visitors, they’ll choose to bring their business elsewhere. If you spit on the soldiers of a country that (inexplicably, in my view) subsidizes your defense, expect frequent incremental troop withdrawals. If you let mob rule and junk science govern commerce with your major trading partners, don’t expect to have a healthy export economy. There ought to be, and is, an economic cost to prevalent attitudes that are the antithesis of the global openness of which Korea so ardently wishes of take advantage.
The weak link in this argument is that we’ve generally to hold Korea accountable for its ugliest behavior, but the reason for that is that not enough visitors to Korea have told the American people what’s going on there. There are plenty of write-ups about good Korean food and Bulguksa travelogues on the Web, and that’s a side of Korea that should be known. So is this.
#57 This may be odd to ask, because it seems like it’s quite far from the norm, but are you sure that it was simply the male teachers that said this? I generally read/hear that it’s only the males perpetuating this, while the females are simply ignorant and easily duped saints, but eh…what’s really weird in my case was that the foreigner bs was pushed by my wife’s mother and also perpetuated by the sibling (older sister). My future father in-law didn’t really seem to care, in fact, I’d take him for a mute if he didn’t ask me if I smoked. And that he was glad I didn’t smell like butter…
“Technically, if you are born in the U.S.A, you are second generation. If you are born outside the U.S.A you are first generation.”
No, the first generation born in the USA (and immigrant children) are first generation. Immigrant adults are immigrants, not first generation.
A lot of people I know as well as myself use Wangkon’s definitions, but I know a few who uses hoidyandtoiny’s definition as well. Is there even an official definition for something like this? There has to be, since I saw newspapers use # generation terminology.
116,
There appears to be ambigulity in definitions…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Generation_Immigrant#First_generation_immigrant
My ex majored in Asian American studies at Cal (Berkeley) and they defined the generations in the manner in which I did. However, from the wiki article, there doesn’t appear to be a standard.
“The term 1.5 gen is one that was recently invented by cultural anthropologists to explain the vast differences between immigrants who came to the U.S. and children vs. immigrants who came to the U.S. as older adults.”
dude, they’ve been using “foreign-born first generation” for centuries.
#68 — Except that yes “occupation,” is the wrong word, US military “presence” would be more accurate–for the most part horny Republican GI’s. I wonder what other good choice the US had but to station a bunch of jocks up against the DPRK border? But the downside was the USA’s image.
“dude, they’ve been using “foreign-born first generation” for centuries.”
You are stuck in the past. Now ethic studies have been given a lot more attention and money in all college campuses in the U.S. and the terms have naturally gotten a lot more granular.
#114 – Well put.
Speaking of granular, didn’t we see some kyopi here who claimed to be “1.8″ generation?
And I wouldn’t have it any other way. I appreciate the well-intentioned chivalry, guys, but hey, this is the internet. Anybody who can’t ignore %$#@*&@#$##%^&* ought ask Mommy to install a net nanny.
Having a dick helps, too, if you wish to be treated courteously by officialdom.
“When they see / hear this statement from the US State Dept. their mouths literally hit the floor.”
I would have liked to have seen that. Do you mean that they fell to the floor, thus their mouths hit the floor? Or that their mouths actually fell off of their faces and hit the floor?
Tried to post multiple times, didn’t work, trying out this login feature…
Oh, there it is. Lovely. To the moderators, feel free to delete my repeated attempts at posting.
Let me clarify myself. In terms of “American occupation,” I’m speaking about what I presume is the overall feeling from Korean nationals in Seoul judging from when I was there a few years ago. American G.I.’s not allowed in the clubs, stuff like that. I think it may have been around the time that some troops accidentally ran over a couple kids in a tank, so feelings were definitely rather strained. Are you telling me this has all changed? If so, how wonderful. It seems like all of the outraged comments on Korean-on-foreigner behavior are totally without merit, then? I think American military presence is a sore spot for many Koreans, whether or not you believe in the rightness of it. As for me, I haven’t quite made up my mind about it, but I’m still trying to feel all this out. Young, yes. I don’t think “misguided” is the word for me, though.
(“Occupation,” you’re quite right, is not the precise word, and it’s my mistake for throwing it around so casually.)
There’s some controversy over 1st gen, 1.5 gen, 2nd gen, so I’ll just point you over to this informative wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_generation_immigrant – I use “1.5 gen” mostly as a shorthand because that’s what my father calls himself. Personally, I think I’m the one who’s first generation, so, yeah, it can be confusing.
I don’t think that the “gap year” exists in the U.S. in the same way it may exist elsewhere. “Gap year” sounds like a very luxurious time for the leisure class to screw around indefinitely in Berlin without a job after graduating. Stateside, if you’re paying your own way and not relying on your parents, then there technically is no “gap year” — gap between what? Financial and emotional independence is adulthood.
I’ve gone way off topic, but I still think that 800-word vignette in the NYT mag was not the choicest cut out there to describe the disconnect between Korea’s cultural and technological advances, or whatever it was the author wanted to talk about. Too easily misunderstood. Frankly, the results of this thread speak for themselves.
This is a pretty awesome blog, and the community is poppin. No need for gallantry, but I appreciate it all the same.
@Soo
I meant the use of the term ‘occupation’ was misguided, not the actual content of what you were saying. Sorry if it sounded condescending or anything.
“Speaking of granular, didn’t we see some kyopi here who claimed to be “1.8″ generation?”
Dunno who that was, but I personally consider myself as a 2.71828183 generation. My as-nerdy immigrant friends concur.
If this kind of thing never happens to you, then you either need to look at the girl you are with (not pretty or young enough for Korean men), or yourself (you look like a killing machine). Korean guys are more than happy to palm off Korean women that cannot, for whatever reason, be married to Korean men.
If you are with a good looking Korean girl (and that means Korean guys think she is good looking) then it is bound to happen to you. That doesn’t mean a physical confrontation, just a comment or perhaps other unwanted attention. It happened to a friend of mine just last week.
Someone else touched on the subject, but if you are messing about kissing or even holding hands, you increase the chance that people are going to pay attention to you in a negative way. Not doing that will decrease, but definitely not eliminate, that chance.
I would say being able to speak Korean fluently is important method of resolving situations like the one described in the article. Obviously that isn’t a real option for the transient foreign population in Korea, so the only option is to deal with it calmly – probably better to leave it to your girlfriend even if it makes you feel unmanly.
Beating up Koreans without lots of backup is not really an option. Just look at what happens to soldiers that get into altercations (they get mobbed and beaten by the surrounding Koreans, even stripped of clothes in one incident). Better just to walk away, or even yell for help rather than use violence for which you will inevitibly be blamed for.
Anyway, it is annoying indeed. If you are one of those that does not get hassled for whatever reason, have some compassion for those that do.
‘Anyway, it is annoying indeed. If you are one of those that does not get hassled for whatever reason, have some compassion for those that do.’
no, i think not. just a bunch a whinning babies(囧)! the fact of the matter is, there ain’t no problem unless you consider the expat’s wounded pride as a problem which it ain’t.
move along, folks. there ain’t nothing to see here.
Anyway, it is annoying indeed. If you are one of those that does not get hassled for whatever reason, have some compassion for those that do.
Well said. Even for people who, on balance, like living here, episodes like this have a lasting effect. Frankly, I’d say Hudson’s experience was rather tame in comparison to what some folks have received, but we shouldn’t discount his experience entirely.
But I also think that his writing was poor. Like dogbert, I have trouble reconciling that with the comments about his work found on his website. Mostly, however, I wonder what this tale is doing in the Times Magazine, when there are so many more interesting experiences that could have filled the page.
In the end, this is a story which on a personal level is possibly scarring, but on a public level is fairly boring.
In general doesn’t it make more sense to call adults “immigrants” and their children “first generation”? Why classify adult immigrants as first generation? The idea of classify adult immigrants as first generation seems specific to relatively new American immigrants. If you search the definition of “first generation” you will not find any mention of the United States in the definition. Is any immigrant to any country “first generation”? Is Robert Koehler first generation Korean? Isn’t this newer definiton of first generation stuck in the past? Isn’t it very specific to immigrants to USA, Canada, Europe, etc., as though everyone is moving in one direction?
And then again, isn’t “1.5 generation” a result of the initial narrow-minded view of “first generation”? Does “1.5 generation” take into consideration all immigrants in the world? When considering all the possibilities of inter-ethnic marriages and immigration doesn’t it make sense to keep things as simple as possible? What good comes of “1.5 generation”? I once read a post somewhere that Koreans have about seven different classifications for Korean immigrants to America. Isn’t all this numbered classification just a joke?
“There’s some controversy over 1st gen, 1.5 gen, 2nd gen, so I’ll just point you over to this informative wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F….._immigrant – I use “1.5 gen” mostly as a shorthand because that’s what my father calls himself. Personally, I think I’m the one who’s first generation, so, yeah, it can be confusing.”
When did it become confusing, and meaningful? When did adult immigrants become first generation? An adult is an immigrant, everyone else is first generation. This has been going on forever. In the United States you are an immigrant if you’re over 15 years-old. If a 35 year-old American moves to Canada they are not first generation Canadian, they are an American immigrant. I think the confusion is coming from a rush to claim something that is meaningless. How does any of this matter? This is a simple meaningless classification of immigrants and their children, it’s not something to dwell on. No one cares! What is the point of the 1.5 generation classification?
Some people are foreign-born first generation. It’s been like that forever. This is not a unique situation. We didn’t wake up yesterday and realize that some of the children of immigrants are not the same as others.
“Oh, I 1.0 Korean, my wife full Korean, if baby go to school in Korea it is not full Korean it is 2.5…duh?” What is this bullshit! Fuck off!
Great, just what we need. Another hot, young, English-speaking Asian girl coming over here to date responsible, ethical teachers, and turn them to the dark side in her attempts to rebel against her controlling elders. Has anyone called dibs yet?
Consider this post one vote of support for Soo. Yes, “occupation” was the wrong word choice. But, come on, her post was two long paragraphs, neither was which was crying about the American oppression of Korea. “Trotskyite”? That’s just nuts.
As for Hudson’s article… it was in a NYT Magazine issue about architecture and cities of the future. That was clearly the story he had been commissioned to write. His chopstick skills and the racist dolts he has met in Korea were not part of that story.
Nicely put by #114
Even if Hudson thinks a little too highly of himself, his ‘flying chopsticks,’ and ‘eating like a Korean man’ (whatever that means) racism is a problem here, and I’m glad it was addressed.
In the past, Korean men could have whined about ‘foreigners stealing our women,’ but nowadays Korean men ‘steal’ at least ten times as many foreign women, from S.E. Asia and elsewhere. Racist attitudes should be confronted and defeated wherever they happen to be.
“I should say that if I were in New York City and I saw a fellow American accosting a Korean man and his date this way, I’d want to break the American man’s face too.”
You’re confused, Gabe. You are the Korean man in NYC and no one does anything.
I doubt Hudson’s encounter is particularly worthy of a NYT piece, it is an occurence but little more than that. Some posturig and bigotry, little more.
Some of the other stories recalled on this blog are worthy of being written up though. While I have not personally experienced anything that was so confrontational as those (my wife is attractive but I look like I would have trouble killing butterflies) when I was doing elective at Severance I came across an American in his early twenties in intensive care. While he was at a PCbang we he repeatedly bashed in the back of the head with a blunt object. Defenseless while he was concentrating on his game. It was a completely unprovoked attack and what is disgusting is that it is unlikely the man responsible will ever be caught despite the CCTV everywhere you look. The poor guy had concussion but was conscious by the time I saw him, however some irreversible brain damage may have occurred and though I didn’t see him after the bruising went down I think his face may have been permanently disfigured.
What is truly frightening about these incidents is that there doesn’t seem to be a social deterent. The police seem disinterested, this incident (i don’t know about others) didn’t make it into the press, and had the man turned around in time to defend himself he would have had to take some portion of responsibility for the attack.
Three things could seriously reduce these occurences (this will sound like an arrogant expat trying to place his cultural values on Korea)
1. Responsible service of alcohol (not goin to happen when you can buy alcohol 24-7 from convenience store for next to nothing, and where being commercial competitive relies on getting your clientel as drunk as possible)
2. Taking drunk and disorderly people off the streets for the night (not going to happen as the police are busy doing … actually what do they do?)
3. Punishing those who commit violent and unprovoked crimes to the extent of the law. Not excusing them because they are drunk. This is just going to teach them that if they get drunk before they act like an asshole it is ok, so they will get drunk more often.
has South Korea ever made it ILLEGAL for a Korean woman to marry a foreign man?
has the United States of America ever made it ILLEGAL for a Chinese man to marry a white US citizen? The answer to this, is YES.
native men getting angry over an outsider taking the native women is a
UNIVERSAL, natural, HUMAN reaction.
History documents so.
“Despite the fact that the exclusion act was repealed in 1943 the law in California that Chinese-Americans were not able to marry whites wasn’t repealed until 1948.”
hardy, they DID do something, about 100 years ago.
‘(this will sound like an arrogant expat trying to place his cultural values on Korea)’
you got that right. korea has more pressing concerns than some expect being stared at. get a clue, korea doesn’t revolve around you and the world does not revolve around korea.
however, what happenned to the Prof is clearly wrong and it should never happen again in Korea. If, possible.
however, I totally defy the notion that this is unique to Korea.
when the white sailor wandered into Korea, the Chosun king, eventually gave him a Korean wife of sorts. But, he ran away anyway.
when the first black slave came to America, the white slave owner gave him his white daughter, eventually, to marry.
when the first Chinese railroad worker came to America, the white railroad baron gave him his white daughter, eventually, to marry.
choose which statement is true.
# 130, “If you are with a good looking Korean girl (and that means Korean guys think she is good looking) then it is bound to happen to you.”
Hey, that’s exactly what I said!
The older men will eventually die and with them that attitude of a hard life and perpetual tolerance for their behavior but they were fairly innocuous to begin with. The half-slap, as BB calls it, is about as physical as they’ve ever gotten around me.
The more disturbing aspect of this society, in my opinion, has been the rise of the thugling. I have mentioned this before and I think this element is the one Metro touches on in his post.
The hallmark of the thugling is eternal petulance and cowardice. He’s been coddled all his life yet not to the extent that he can do whatever he wants. He still must go from one academy to the next endlessly, even on Saturdays. What he’d like is to wake up, jerk-off, then play video or computer games all day. He believes that if he were allowed enough practice he could go pro. He has a group of boys he hangs out with and they all have a similar gripe, although one or two of them think if they were given enough free time they could bring the World Cup trophy to Korea. They band together to feel stronger about themselves by excluding others. They surround girls and can say the things in a group that they wouldn’t dare to say alone. Some of the girls are appalled and scared, others think some of the attention is thrilling and a few of the boys are sexy. Especially the ones who spend hours on their hair and get the faux side-burns just right.
You might see them occasionally throw a water balloon out a third story window at an innocent at a bus stop. They’ll flip you off as your bus or taxi is pulling away from the curb and yell, “I am Korean”, as if that weren’t obvious.
When they get college age they become more aggressive. They’ll force you and you’re wife off the sidewalk, even your children, when they are in a group. They’ll be rude and say rude things to you to you on subways and buses, again, only if they are in a group. They hit people, never face to face or eye to eye, and it’s always the sucker punch variety, and then run. They go to demonstrations and hurl things at people far away they never have to face. They will get into fights but only when their numbers are overwhelmingly in their favor.
They say that the violent protesters were professional agitators. That’s what the Chinese said also and it’s the biggest load of poisoned beef I’ve ever heard. Watch the videos. One guy will inch forward, look around and then fall back when he realizes the crowd hasn’t come with him. An agitator will go toe to toe with someone, make sure that his actions spur on the rest to make sure the job gets done. He doesn’t mind taking a few to get the crowd stirred up. These people are cowards and never get aggessive unless the odds are 10/1.
Pawi will dismiss this but Pawi doesn’t live here and is talking out his ass. (To think I commended him on another thread!)
Robert, you said I have the choice to leave and that’s just what I’m going to do. It’s intolerably ugly and it’s not something I want my daughter to grow up around. You’re right, it happens everywhere. But this is the only place I know where society, the media, government and police enable it and continually make rationalizations for it.
Pawi wrote “korea has more pressing concerns than some expect being stared at. get a clue, korea doesn’t revolve around you and the world does not revolve around korea.”
I didn’t say the world revolves around me, however my world does revolve around Korea. The staring doesn’t bother me much at all, more often then not I like the attention. It makes a fairly unspecial person feel special.
But as a place I intend on spending a significant part of my life living in, I would hope that it would be a society where one does not feel powerless. Like the individual I spoke of. Irrespective of nationality I would hope such instances are treated seriously by authorities. What worries me is that the politicians seem afraid of taking unpopular measures for the benefit of the people, otherwise they are called totalitarian. Oh dear God, I am becoming right wing.
# 137, “In the past, Korean men could have whined about ‘foreigners stealing our women,’ but nowadays Korean men ’steal’ at least ten times as many foreign women, from S.E. Asia and elsewhere.”
Yes, true and don’t forget Russia.
# 134, “No one cares! What is the point of the 1.5 generation classification?”
Well, that’s a lot of fucking hostility you got there. I don’t know where the term originated from, but I think it first started to get used in the mid to late 80′s so it’s been around for 20+ years. It’s not used just for Korean Americans either. I’ve seen 1.5 generation used to describe Latin and Chinese immigrants. Back in the turn of the century, American universities didn’t care about studying immigration but they do now. It’s a generally accepted term in ethnic studies academia so get over it. No need to pop a fuse.
#143 -
I’d agree with you if it were just staring. But, as numerous accounts show, it all too frequently takes the form of verbal and physical assaults.
Is it really cultural imperialism to expect to be able to appear in public with the companion of one’s choice without being subject to violence in some form?
Pawi, you occasionally bring a needed contrarian perspective to the discussion, but in this case (as in so many others) you’re defending the indefensible.
I guarantee you that if this ever happened to Pawi (i.e. someone gave him crap or even looked at him the wrong way for having a hot white chick on his arm) he’d go ape shit and complain about how racist it is in America.
Not sure which white sailors you are talking about, but in the Choson era, Korea was famous for mistreating “white sailors” that had to misfortune to get shipwrecked in Korea. And yes, that included enslaving them. The story of Hendrik Hamel is that of one sailor that managed to escape Korean “hospitality”.
IMHO, there do seem to be a large number of altercations between us and westerners, especially when alcohol is involved. I have witnessed a few, heard of even more, and rarely could the involved westerner be called blameless. If their home government is going to issue passports to their citizens that can’t carry themselves appropriately in a foreign country, then said foreigners should take out travel insurance. I work with many westerners, but when I see this kind of altercation, it is safe to assume the westerner is at fault in some way. (this generally leads to danger for the westerner). Likewise I laugh when the westerner plays victim mentality here. Suck it up or kucf off. There are plenty of foreigners here who know how to fit in here, if you are not one of them, perhaps you would be better off in another country. Good riddance.
Feel better now?
Did the King of Chosun give Heindrick Hamel the hand of his daughter in marriage? I don’t think so. Probably a slave or indentured servant. The first Africans to arrive in an English settlement were sold into servitude by their Dutch captors. However, some managed to remain indentured servants and eventually buy their freedom. In early Jamestown, there was little legal distinction between European indentured servants and African indentured servants. In 1641, African indentured servant Mathias DeSouza was elected to the Maryland General Assembly.
Laws condemning Africans to a lifetime of slavery came about gradually during the mid to late 1600s as the supply of European indentured servants dwindled. It is noteworthy that in 1670 it became illegal for blacks and Indians to own white indentured servants, implying that some white indentured servants had black or Indian masters. White, black, and Indian servants mixed freely and early miscegenation is well documented and had become such a “problem” that by the late 17th Century the first laws banning interracial marriages were passed in Virginia and Maryland. It is thought by historians that one reason for passing increasingly restrictive laws against African-Americans was to divide freely mixing poor whites and blacks to keep them from collaborating in any kind of rebellion against wealthy white landowners.
I read Hendrik’s journal. He arrived in Chosun after both the Japanese and Jurchen invasions. Chosun probably mistreated shipwrecked foreigners because before each of those invasions both the Jurchens and Japanese sent spies into the country side that provided critical intelligence that made both invasions a lot easier. Granted, Chosun’s treatment of foreigners at this time was excessive, but it’s no like they didn’t have a traumatic event in the past that was the root to their thinking. I think this fact was even mentioned somewhere in Hendrik’s journal if you’ve read it.
swlee and Pawi, you both have plenty to be proud of. You seem to take the most pride and fight most dilligently for the ugliest aspects of your culture and then, instead of reinforcing your argument you are dismissive or say what the US was doing in the past as if that were entitlement. It was f’d up then and it’s f’d up now. At least it has become a hate crime and is punishable, NOW.
It seems rather absurd to be so prideful and defensive about these indefensible acts. You’re now the hub of nationalism and racism. NOW! Other countries who are aspirants can look to yours as a model.
swlee, I will take your advice and kucf off. I find it unspeakably ugly! You can continue to take pride in it in peace. I will take your good riddance as a bon voyage using my bigot to English dictionary.
Is it too much to ask to be left alone at dinner time? Why does being with a Korean wife, girlfriend, or acquaintance require the intervention of a Korean man, either to rescue the woman or insult her by calling her a 술집 여자?
99.99% of these foreigners in Korea are temporary stayers that will be returning to their home countries. They are either tourists, various categories of workers, or businessmen. All of them eventually leave, so if you have a problem with any specific individual, the problem with eventually resolve itself by their departure.
Compare that to the Kyopo living in western countries that treat the local people with disrespect. They are never leaving.
So, given this, maybe you could cut us some slack. Thanks.
Well, I’m a first generation American (son to French & English immigrants) who’s been attacked but more often threatened in Seoul, but mostly in the Nineties. I was habitually treated to the epithet “Mr Monkey Man” as in someone screaming “Hello Mr Monkey Man” while I tried to hail a cab. This was presumably in light of my somewhat furry arms… lol… furrily blonde. “Looks like puppy” is what the women said, and “Hello Monkey Man” from the guys.
When guys tried to fight me I usually tried what I think of as cultural judo, that’s to say I tried to make them look and feel like they’d be real dicks, from a Korean viewpoint, to hit me. To this end I spoke in formal honorifics (wae hwa-na-shibmnika? and so on) which seemed to make a big difference. I also tried to get help from others, and to make reasonable eye contact. But it can be really hard to get someone to help you out when a mad dog’s swinging a broomstick in the street at you because you’re walking with a pretty girl or for whatever other reason. Usually there was some other person to kind of pull back the offender, you know, that Korean-style thing where it’s like I’d kill you if it weren’t for my dongseng or whatever here who’s holding me back, and it’s mostly all show.
But I was cracked in the face once without explanation. That said, I’ve been hit in the face without explanation twice in US cities.
Ah, Seoul in the Nineties. It wasn’t uncommon to see domestic fights in the street at night, not uncommon to see a husband hit his wife, surrounded by a circle of onlookers.
So maybe it’s better now…
Not “fit in”? Thank God!
It is true there are older people with attitude against westerners, sometimes drunk kids too. Some of my close friends are westerners living here, and they are great people. One was involved in a similar altercation soon after parting from me in a restaurant, and I was called to assist at the scene, hospital, police station. Its very boring and takes a long time to resolve. The situation was due to his ignorance of Korean custom, which is generally the case. He accepted his fault and does not complain. After seeing his attitude after the incident, I don’t see why he should have to leave. Those that live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Going to other countries and telling people there how to behave is a crime that wars of decolonization were fought for. Korea is a wonderful place to live, as many of the long term people here will attest. But its not like moving to Virginia, you have to make a commitment to new values, language, custom when you go to foreign country.
Of course we have many problems, but we are working hard to improve. It is not the place of fly by night english teacher with very little comprehension of Korea to dictate commands. I don’t care which bar/hagwon/subway line you met your student/wife/exwife in. I don’t care to go to the effort to prove I am not racist, I am comfortable that I am not. The issue here is noisy backpackers that misunderstand their host country and cast aspersions on its name based on their own ignorant experience and experience of drunken bar fights. We don’t need/want people like that. too many on this blog too
I’ve read a lot of comments and finally decided to let everyone know what’s recently happened to me. This is reposted from my blog:
I got a bicycle about a year ago, but only rode it once. After a marathon and a full year of training/racing my right knee was shot so I’ve picked up the bike again. Most cyclists in Korea wear form fitting, breathable synthetics. I have a lot of similar clothes from running. I am not embarrassed to wear these clothes because it is part of the sport.
The ajoshis, old Korean men, here must think differently about these clothes- or rather women participating in sports. (Although there are large numbers of women in sports along the Han River.) I went to meet my running club for breakfast early on Saturday morning. I biked back home afterwards, which takes me near Sinchon Rotary. I had to stop and wait for the light to change so I did. I straddled the bike, rather than sitting on it. I was tired to be honest.
This is when a “these things would only happen to me” situation began. Others were waiting for the light to change as well. I was wearing my helmet, yoga pants, short-sleeved polyester running shirt that says “Jeju Marathon” on it, my “Jeju Marathon” backpack, and tennis shoes. An ajoshi, who was on my left and only one foot away, started staring. And I don’t mean just staring at me, but looking me up and down with a blank expression. He made at least three passes with his eyes over the length of my body. I noticed this out of the corner of my eye so I turned to him and did just the same to him. I looked him over from head to toe about three times.
None of this phased him or made him feel uncomfortable, from what I could gather. We continued our staring and gazing contest until I decided to look back at the light- hoping it was time to go because my staring contest did not pan out. Just then, out of no where, another ajoshi came up on my left side between myself and the first one. This is where it gets worse: This man sees me, puts his right hand on the handlebars of my bike (which I’m straddling remember) and starts picking the bike up and dropping it- making the bike bounce repeatedly. This moves the bike up and down, causing the crotch bar to hit….well…MY CROTCH.
I was mad. Not only had my stare off not worked effectively against “byungtae no. 1,” (pervert) but now this jerk had the nerve to grab my property, and start moving it- causing it to touch the most private part of my personal property- my crotch.
Because I was mad, and shocked I reacted in a way that I now regret. He was not looking at me, but just holding my bike and staring straight ahead while doing this. I grabbed his right arm and said in Korean, “Mr. No.” and perhaps because I was shocked the next Korean words that came out of my mouth were a ridiculous “Thank you.” I was angry, mortified, and just plain pissed as hell.
This prick looked at me quickly said “Woooooow.” I’m not sure if he said that because he only then realized that I was a foreigner, or because I grabbed his arm and forcibly removed it from my bike. From behind I might have looked like a Korean with my dark, straight hair. Furthermore, grabbing an older Korean man’s arm in that fashion would be considered very rude. (Yes, forward on my part, despite his behavior being aggressive and sexual.)
Stories like these are what make me hate living here. I am against the norm and defying stereotypes as a western woman in Korea who is not like the women in media (thanks for nothing “Misuda”) I guess. Because these things happen, I am forced to re-think cultural norms that might be considered rude to non-Westerners in the US as well.
I did find humor in it last night re-telling it to some friends. I would like to be more prepared for situations that involve dirty, old, (drunk? at 10am) Korean men, but I mean really, what else can you do other than memorize how to say “Your penis is tiny!” in Korean as a comeback to harrassing behavior?
You have no idea about my experiences here nor the experiences of others on this blog. To say yours are all encompassing is a large steaming load.
Nope. It’s not. Not at all.
As much as you’d like it not to be, the issue here is non-Korean males who are minding their own business being verbally and/or physically assaulted for no reason whatsoever, or for the simple (non-)reason that they are in the company of a Korean (or Asian-looking) female.
swlee, are you even reading this thread? The people here are not talking about drunken bar fights, or picking fights with Koreans. They are talking about Korean men that seek conflict, whether verbal or physical, with foreign men that are with Korean women.
Since you think that the incident with your western friend is similar to what you have been reading here, why don’t you elaborate on the incident so we can make up our own minds?
Also, what stories like that related by Joshua? Is he also a trouble maker, drunk?
I can speak, read and write Korean, so I know exactly what is up. Stories like that related by Joshua match my own experiences, and also the experiences of other friends that have been to Korea.
Thats ok, its not my job to make your life here happy and rolling in flowers. If you dont like it, kucf off. Many do, and dont. Some dont like it, but keep their mouth shut out of respect for their host country.
Even Mike Hunt has masochist love for country even though people give him hard time for taking highschool girls for movie and dinner at COEX. Its incomprehensible that someone would be worked up about what can reasonably be construed to bystanders as a pervert.
I dont need to know Maddlews own litany of experience here, he is a noisy ingrate with low level of ability to negotiate cultural barriers. Specifics are not necessary.
Isn’t it amusing that swlee follows the classic racist formula of prefacing his offensive and inaccurate sweeping generalizations with “I have lots of [insert ethnicity here] friends, but…”
Re #152, 160, 164:
Mr. Marmot, hasn’t this guy racked up enough troll points for a ban yet?
If I had to guess whether such experiences made the expat bitter about Korea, or whether the expat was a douchebag leading to such experience., I would back the latter. Given the arrogant and ignorant comments by such expats on this blog, its a safe bet. Even Sakachi gets bashed by “Asians” in his own country, I’d pay money to watch such serendipity.
You actually have recurring fantasies in which you kick the shit out of white guys, don’t you?
‘The story of Hendrik Hamel is that of one sailor that managed to escape Korean “hospitality”.’
what hate boy don’t tell you is japan did the same thing. hamel? read about his attempts to escape to japan and how they made him a hostage.
Yes, lets make claims about racism in Korea, and ensure any Koreans with differing viewpoint are banned so as to limit full discussion. Im sorry if you think I am trolling, but there is more to this issue than what you appear to be aware of. I only want you to think a little broader, deeper. Thinking laterally is like travelling to a foreign country, but in your mind. Call for trolling is sign of failure to communicate. Next you will threaten to break my face? Maybe shout at me in English in the subway about being racist Korean? My job is not to help english teachers here, all I can recommend is to learn more about our country and you will find that your prejudices were just that.
‘Mr. Marmot, hasn’t this guy racked up enough troll points for a ban yet?’
that’s right; run to papa marmot to make the korean stop.
swlee,
I don’t consider you a racist…a miserable cunt maybe…but not a racist. Spackle on.
And it is not my job here to accommodate every drunk and/or insecure fuck who feels he has the right to interfere with my life.
Perhaps you could elaborate on which Korean custom ‘your friend’ so ignorantly defied…as generally the case, right?
‘If I had to guess whether such experiences made the expat bitter about Korea, or whether the expat was a douchebag leading to such experience., I would back the latter. Given the arrogant and ignorant comments by such expats on this blog, its a safe bet’
bingo! according to excee, he’s just soooo innocent as he rails at the top of his lungs that every k lady wants to be with him. you can bet that kind of attitude translates into his overall behavior in korea.
“You actually have recurring fantasies in which you kick the shit out of white guys, don’t you?”
Ha, no way. I’m a pacifist. But watching a racist get a lesson would be amusing. Kind of satisfaction of seeing justice served. I don’t think the state should do this kind of justice, but if a racist gets bashed by someone of another race in a street, it is not a big problem if the state looks the other way. Maybe Sakachi should wear kimono in Sydney for protection.
swlee says -
And –
Not sure why you are using quote marks for Asians, but I have not been beaten up by Asians anywhere, ever.
Instead of bizarre insults, why not try to give an appropriate response to this? I have been writing reasonable replies, and have participated responsibly in the discussion. Could you do the same, or are you out to troll with by making provocative and insulting comments in order to get a reaction from the readers here?
swlee,
Is your IP address 121.45.99.26? If it is, then you are indeed a racist. If not, then I guess it’s still open for debate.
Either way, you seem to be a prick.
Well, yes, perhaps he does. But he’s hardly the only commenter who does so. Some might argue that makes him fit right in.
You know, this may very well inspire me to submit a Korean article to the Weekly Chosun. It would be a little intro to my neighborhood in Itaewon. I can talk about the good restaurants and cosmopolitan atmosphere… and then end with several paragraphs about the group of Nigerians who sit around (or drive around) shouting “이리 와!” to Korean women (or women who look Korean) passing by, and then yelling something in Ibo/Yoruba/Hausa/whatever at them when they ignore them. Perhaps add a paragraph or two about the English teacher types walking around with beers in their hand and staring at my wife’s chest. Maybe mention the two 20-something Americans and their 양갈보 (sorry) who beat up my local shop owner when he protested the rude way in which they were talking to him. Hey, we all need to combat racism, sexism and violence, especially in our own community, right?
Swlee, when I was in school in Korea I also noticed some pretty bothersome foreigners who actually made me feel embarrassed because I knew I might be associated with their dismal behavior. But I made Korean friends and had a great time with them. I think I can say my chopsticks “fly,” I’m usually overpolite if anything, I speak Korean and I love Korea, I played by Korean rules and I still got the treatment. Gyopos got it just as bad or worse. In the 90′s there were articles trash-talking Koreans “pretending to be foreigners,” speaking English, wearing their hair long and sporting “phony” US passports. Of course they were gyopos, and I saw them get yelled at a lot in subways for speaking English. The flip-side as a whitey was being treated like a rock star sometimes. I don’t know how you get to the conclusion that because a foreigner is assaulted or harassed by total strangers that they are a racist or have bad people skills. After about six months I got a girlfriend, a smart designer who made a good living, a very respectable girl. I became friends with her friends, though of course she never told her parents about me and one day they called her to say that she was going to marry an old school friend. When she and I used to go places we had wonderful times, and we learned to put up with the snap judgments that people made and the comments and stares. Snap judgments like the ones, it seems, you’re more than willing to make here today.
I’m not saying all Koreans are like this, very far from it. And I can understand it, given the quirks of history. But that doesn’t mean I, you or anyone else should like it.
…toxic…
I’m sorry if some people are offended, its not my intention. I was under the impression that you were assaulted by Asians in Sydney, but maybe its my mistake.
Iceberg. I don’t know about IP address, but the computer is confused to think I am in Australia, which is the same problem for many people here, I think. Appearing to be prick is better statement than saying I am a prick, so thank you for the nuance. Sometimes the conversation is too heated here.
I don’t know enough about the professor story, it is common occurance and I don’t believe the professor is in the position to be objective. And kind of boring story writing about drunken man in a restaurant. Its like writing his story about visiting Paris and having a rude waiter. Or seeing a lion in Africa. The world is more complex.
Heh, silly foreigners don’t know the accepted terminology is 야 타. But why not write it? If it is factual and persistent, then it is most definitely relevant to the subject of the local atmosphere. I remember years ago an article about Apkujong and it did indeed include talk of the so-called orenji jok yelling 야 타.
The taboos of present day western society strike me as primitive and backwards, a retreat from the open inquiry and discussion that advanced western civilization until recently.
That whole spiel I made about the rise of the thugling, I don’t mind so much that they are tolerated and enabled but that they are often lauded by their peers. I would never be able to abide by that if my daughter were to fall into that crowd, not so much that she had joined in through no fault of her own, but that I hadn’t done as much as I could to avoid it. This would be a difficult thing for me to resign myself to. My own guilt would be crushing.
I would much rather she become, “not one of us”, and not “fit in”. I promise you that whatever she becomes she will fit in with her father and her family. So help me!
Man, this place is like a factory churning out ironies every other second.
While I don’t usually agree with pawi, I do think the phrase ‘hate boy’ is quite appropriate for the occasion.
I don’t think swlee is a troll. I think that he makes assumptions that has overshot most of the crowd here (I’m sure there are drunk asshole expats in Seoul since there are drunk assholes where I live, but I’m not too sure if I’m talking to any one of them here… maybe one or two), but if making sweeping, anecdote-based, and racially based generalization warrants the label ‘troll’, majority of the crowd at this blog should have been banned a long time ago.
I think that, as time passes on, these racist/pervert (in CJ’s case) incidence will decrease significantly – South Korea, a historically culturally homogeneous nation cannot achieve what a historically multicultural country too over fifty years to achieve in less than… what, 10, 20 years?
Now, is that an excuse? Of course not, since I’m saying Korea has a problem and needs to change. Is that a defense of that asshole in the OP’s story? No, since I really think he was being a racist asshole. It’s pretty much me patting the expat population in the back and softly serenading them with ‘The Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow’. But I’m pretty sure some of the knee-jerk reaction here as the former paragraph was being read was ‘Great, another kyopo with nationalism-driven apologist argument’. Well, wouldn’t be the first time reaction like that happened here… lol, happened once today already.
I can agree with day4night.
“I don’t know how you get to the conclusion that because a foreigner is assaulted or harassed by total strangers that they are a racist or have bad people skills.”
If I said this or it looks like I did I’m sorry if my poor English made my argument disagree with everybody. I am horrified to think somebody thinks I am like that. I tried to mean that poor inter cutural skills and people skills mean the person makes the situation worse because of their reaction. Getting huffity puffity is not advisable means of conflict mediation/resolution, but might give you an erection when a girl is involved.
Did nobody stop to question that Gabe Hudson is a douche, and that his girlfriend was a whore. It is a possibility that we should not discount. Perhaps the man was trying to stop Gabe from being his wallet stolen by cheap girl.
swlee,
Concerning the IP address, I’ll take your word for it and I apologize for the accusation.
Some background on that – someone with that address (which is located in Australia) left an extremely tasteless and racist (though he probably wouldn’t recognize it) comment (which has since been deleted) on my blog.
Oh that I could have a face-to-face with that person.
Bingo! It is this kind of idle speculation by Korean men that causes the “conflict” in the first place. The Korean man makes wild assumptions based on zero evidence about a relationship they know nothing about to intervene, either to “rescue” the girl, or call her a 술집 여자.
And what is this about wanting to pay to see me get beaten up? There is something wrong with your head.
It’s called pacifism 2.0
“It’s called pacifism 2.0″
I think everybody should give Linkd 3 Internets for witty comment of the day.
182. swlee
I think swlee makes an excellent point – getting accosted by racist ajoshis in Korea is such a “common occurrence” it’s just too passe and boring to consider. You know like “seeing a lion in Africa” or getting a “rude waiter” in “Paris”. I mean – yawn – racist arseholes in Korea, what a trite and hackneyed troup. . .
ha-ha! you make Hudson’s point better than he does swlee!! I thought you were trying to defend Korea?? pu-ha-ha!!
End of the day, Most of your bad Korean experiences, most likely, caused by arrogant Ajoshis!!
So, could you please replace word “Korean to “Ajoshis”? I know, as myself in Ajoshis group, how Ajoshis are arrogant, xenophobia, ignorant, racist, sexist, pervert….It can’t be all Ajoshis but I don’t even mind you people saying “Ajoshis done that! Fxxxing Ajoshis! Ajoshis XXX…Whatever! Because some of us, Ajoshis, right to be call that way. And their behaviors aren’t only limit to the foreigners but also to other Korean.
Even, there would be more common senses between expats and Gyopos by using “Ajoshis” term instead of “Korean or Korean man”. And it would make me, an Ajoshis; feel better.
jimong: i’ve met some wonderful ajoshi’s too — my best friend’s father-in-law is 100% ajoshi, and also one of the best men I know.
If we’re talking about groups where a few nasty examples spoil the reputation of an entire group, ajoshi has to be right up there with English teachers in Korea. (who knew we had something in common).
Marmot, good job getting your readers to take the bait on this one… Nothing drums up the comments like the ol’ white english teacher (glorified as he may be in this case) + Korean girl + racist ajeossi equation, eh? Even if
I realize that this kind of post, along with the recently improved trolling of pawi (how does he keep getting better/more obnoxious), keeps people coming back to your site, but couldn’t you get the same interest, but sans pawi, by putting up some T&A pics?
“You know like “seeing a lion in Africa” or getting a “rude waiter” in “Paris”. I mean – yawn – racist arseholes in Korea, what a trite and hackneyed troup. . .”
yes, that was kind of my intention. You don’t tell a rude waiter in Paris ” hey, you are uncivilized, why dont you speak english, why don’t you be bring two napkins you rude, moustache man with smell of cigarettes”
no you, leave the caf,e
or when you see a lion in Africa, go up to it and pull its tail, try to climb on its back, or try to take its bone from its mouth. or climb back into your safari jeep. Not all koreans are drunk racist men, but there are some, and there is historical/ sociological reasons for this kind of person. its not a surprise, there is this type in every country. just in this case the expat is on the receiving end of racism for a change. boo hoo. it happens , get on with life.
@Shakuhachi;
“The Korean man makes wild assumptions based on zero evidence about a relationship they know nothing about to intervene, either to “rescue” the girl, or call her a 술집 여자.”
Now you are assuming that the Korean man made an assumption about the girl and their relationship, and assume that the Korean man was not trying to help the man. ANYTHING could have been going on at that restaurant, and given the Gabe guy has lack of ability to comprehend his environment, it IS a possibility he is a douche (actually this scientifically proved by clicking his website, or reading his story), therefore raising the possibility the girl MAY have been a girl interested in him for his nationality/cultural background (or slutty whore), rather than him as a person.
I think this dynamic can irritate the Westerner, the possibility that their wife/girlfriend is attracted to them for reasons other than their intrinsic personality, such as other characteristics that are less than unique, such as passport, western cultural heritage, big nose, etc. But hypothesizing on such dynamics will also likely irritate the expat, so what do you have to do?
To #179,
Well, first off, you’re entirely free to do that, Robert–just as the fellow in question was free to publish his piece. I fail to see why either should be criticized for publishing.
On the other hand, there is difference between two such articles, your hypothetical one and Gabe’s: the difference is the effect of the writing. Most readers of the NYT [I don't know if it was some Korean edition, or just the regular version] probably have no ill-feelings towards Korea, and probably are unaware of the ways in which this sort of prejudice can occur.
On the other hand, I daresay that there is already a fair amount of prejudice in Korea towards foreigners in general and Americans and Africans in particular. Your writing such a piece could inflame existing sentiment, and thus the effect would be much different than any results of Gabe’s piece. Also, you likely wouldn’t be bringing much that was new to your audience.
The bottom line, for me, is that there is a predictability to the comments here, and that results at least partly from some of the topics and tones of many of the blog posts themselves. On the one hand, there are those for whom Korea is never good enough, and with regards to those, I side with Robert. (South Korea is a wonderful country that gave me, in particular, a wife, son, and a career track, in addition to a fantastic overall experience.) On the other hand, there are also those with no patience for anyone who gets annoyed with typical Korean problems that impact the foreigner here. This sort delights in showing off their toughness at the expense of others, and each side sometimes feeds off the other.
As for dealing with the racism/sexism “in our own community,” continuing to deal with it here in a more productive way could be a good start.
Meanwhile, why not celebrate just how wonderful Korea has been and continues to be for many expats, while at the same time celebrating the contribution of the expat community to the country?
Oops–”a difference between…”–sorry!
–
By the way, Robert, I want to say how much I’m enjoying your own actual celebration of traditional Korean architectural treasures. You post fantastic photographs and good links to others’ work. That’s in addition to the other fine work you do.
I have to side with the more moderate 외국인s here and say that some Koreans in Korea can be rather unfair in assessing multi-racial couples. I mean hey, it’s not the 70′s anymore where some Korean women may “whore” themselves for a green card.
In many cases, the women either have more money than the 외국인 guy or at least perhaps her family does.
Reminds me of a time where I had a white friend, nicest guy in the world, who went to Korea to visit his in-laws. This was the 90′s I believe and he’s walking with his wife in Seoul and some college kid yells “fuck you” at the top of his lungs. He just wanted to ignore the kid, but his wife walked over and just unloaded. It was good that he didn’t understand much Korean.
Listen, it feels bad to be singled out in public when you have a significant other (or even a date) that’s of a different race than you. It’s totally understandable why you would. But I think if you have class, you’ll take that insult in stride and show restraint. You are a bit outnumbered and loosing your temper in public isn’t going to help. Actually, it will probably hurt more then help by confirming the reason why others would prejudge you.
Lastly, when taken into perspective, Korea’s reaction to multi-ethnic couples is probably not as good as some (i.e. Thailand, Philippines comes to mind) but better, from a historical perspective, than others (i.e. the U.S. and some Western European states). If the situation doesn’t improve in another 10 years then maybe Korea is a damn racist country. But it’s still early on in Korea’s exposure to multi-ethic couples so I will reserve my judgment until later.
‘Nigerians’
how do nigerians end up in a place like korea? what do most of them do there? i don’t know but it would be as strange as finding a korean community in lagos.
#196 – Very well said.
I find it interesting that nobody’s really looked at how the gender of those involved plays into all of this, because these stories always involve a white man with a Korean (or East Asian) woman. I think I may be a minority among the foreign women here (or maybe we just don’t talk about it as much) in that I’ve dated a Korean man.
Let me preface the rest by saying that while I am not fluent in Korean, I would put myself in an intermediate class. I usually understand most of what is going on around me.
Usually when we were in public, nothing happened. Nobody ever bothered us at all, although I’m pretty sure that’s because the idea of us being a couple hadn’t entered into the realm of possibilities for most of the people watching. We were just two people walking down the street. However, upon my entrance into public place with his friends (usually a hof or some other night spot), there would be shock and then much excitement over my mere presence. Some of his friends would buy him drinks for being with a white girl. I also found it interesting that they would ask HIM if it was ok for them to touch my hair. They would pour shots for everyone except me because I am a woman and it’s my job to help him get home.
To his credit, he claimed to be embarrassed by his friends’ behavior, but he still participated in it all the same, and frequently. We didn’t date for very long.
It was nice not to have to deal with speculation in public because I never had to deal with any of the crap that the other people go through. However, it was racist that he was being congratulated for being with a miguk. They never said “white,” but I’m sure their reaction would have been different had I been African American. Was it directly harmful to me?… no, but it wasn’t comfortable, and I felt like an object, a status symbol, instead of a person.
There are worse things happening in Korea racially, but racism in any form is wrong, whether one is the beneficiary or the victim of it. I would rather know that I made it on my own steam rather than winning the genetic lottery regarding skin pigmentation. I don’t want to get a job OR be turned down for a job because of my ethnicity. I don’t want anyone to be in a relationship with me or decide against a relationship with me because of my ethnicity or nationality. I don’t want anyone be be OFFENDED by my relationship with someone I care about because it’s interracial. Anywhere.
199. Other than one friend here who works in a factory down south, many are involved in import/export of goods such as cars, cloth and electronics. As for the Korean community in Nigeria, I believe there were a few South Koreans kidnapped in the Delta region recently, I’ll have to have a good search when I have time. Anyhow, between steel, oil and shipping, I understand there are a good number of Koreans not only in Nigeria, but similarly doing business all over the continent.
I think that’s his point, anyway. That some guy was SO offended by him sitting and eating with a Korean woman that he felt the need to intervene.
And it wasn’t an ajosshi, he says it was a middle-aged guy in a suit.
Personally, if someone, referring to me, said something to my boyfriend along the lines of “one of our women,” I would have to tell them to f*ck off because I’m my own person, and I don’t belong to him or anyone. Perhaps that’s my individualistic western upbringing, though. I don’t think that’s a culturally appropriate thing to do for a Korean woman because 1)the woman is probably younger than the guy who’s doing the scolding, and 2)women are lower than men in Korea.
you don’t think white guys do the same thing? have you read this board? this is filled with white expats beating their chest. just look at cmm and wang gon.
hate to tell ya, but black men do the same thing with regards to white women. they see a white woman as a trophy. just like the korean guys see you. same goes for the white guy and asian women.
that’s not racism. that’s just men being men though i would point out that white and black guys probably would not do that in front of the respective lady unles they could speak a foreign language.
#204
speak for your fracking self, not all of mankind.
who the frack do you think you are?
ignoramus award goes to pawikirogi.
his trophy room is already full.
Soo,
I don’t knopw about the US but where I’m from the gap year is a year taken off before Uni not after. Commonly, a year off to travel, or may do a peace corp kind of thing, before returning to the grind of study. Its becoming more and more fashionable as Universities often consider as a positive in the selection process as opening their (the students) minds before entering Uni.
“you don’t think white guys do the same thing? have you read this board?”
I can’t say that I know anybody, no matter how jaded they are, that would approach a complete stranger and berate her for having the gall to be with a Korean man. If they did, they would deserve a good ass kicking too…
You know what. I’m a bit late to this thread. But after painstakingly reading the article and all the comments here, (quiet day in the office, beef stories writing themselves as usual)
I feel it was all, all, summed up in the Marmot’s header and the first three comments.
white guys used to do the EXACT same thing.
Cheng and Eng, Philson, they were rare anomalies.
Let me re-ignite this thread.
Perhaps, the white man is the most insecure male species on earth, when it comes to women.
there, that should keep it going.
truth be told, weren’t most black men in the south lynched, because they were involved with white women?
truth be told, parts of the United States of America passed LAWS to outlaw Chinese men marrying the local white women.
Fancy me. Did South Korea ever do the same?
Pass a law? “Yo, Korean yuja, it is illegal for you to marry that foreign guy.” I don’t think so.
SW Lee,
I might lack certain Korean social graces, but kindly enlighten me how walking along the street with my wife minding my own business, is going to antagonize someone enough to cross from the other side of the street ignore me and in an aggressive manner tell my wife she’s a GI whore. So I am not an expat whining about what’s happened to me, I was ignored as if not there, this was an attack on my wife for no reason other than he assumed I was an American GI and that therefore she was no good trailer trash.
“In many cases, the women either have more money then the 외국인 guy or at least perhaps her family does.”
Definitely my case at marriage. It should be noted that in Seoul the problem of direct confrontation seems much less than when I first visited, people I think are much more used to seeing foreigners in cosmopolitan Seoul.
As noted the discrimination tends to be against my wife more, as there often appears to be an undercurrent of disdain, that she must be trash befriending a visiting foreigner. You can see the palpable difference when they learn that she’s actually got an education, had the money to go to Europe and travel where she met and married an English guy over 12 years ago. Suddenly, she’s respectable and the icy looks, and uncomfortable conversation ease.
So in response to the attitude that you can always leave, please explain why my wife who is Korean should be expected to leave because of her fellow countryman’s attitude. Indeed my wife did suffer the culture shock much more than I, and did wanted to leave for the first year and a half.
All in all though, this are all part of life’s tapestry, and are all bearable, overall Seoul’s a great place and the people generally are nice enough. As always it the few that ruin it.
Notwithstanding the dubious moral and intellectual value of their presence on this blog and this planet, pawi and swlee PERFECTLY represent the classless, clueless, ill-mannered, stupid bigotry that people are complaining about. They could actually BE the jerks encountered in these common stories — or the cops that ignore the incidents or the reporters who fan this mentality.
“All in all though, this are all part of life’s tapestry, and are all bearable, overall Seoul’s a great place and the people generally are nice enough. As always it the few that ruin it.”
It’s all about population density. Seoul, having around the 6th highest population density in the world, will have more assholes per square kilometer. This, of course, will increase the probability of such events happening.
All this, of course, is based on the assumption that the ratio of assholes to non-assholes is relatively constant in all countries.
17,108 /km² according to wiki…
@Sonagi
Only as long as you keep Mr Schlong firmly tucked inside the pants. Officialdom is not very mucho enamored of M. White giving it to Miss Korea.
That would be a cop giving him crap for hiring a Russian whore, right?
You can leave any time you feel like it…
Two things wrong here.
#204,
Once again Pawi gets his gochu in a tangle projecting what he has been culturally conditioned to believe is the wont of western men onto his belief in the purity of the female half of the minjok. Jeebus F Vishnu dude, I know you have spent the bulk of your life being told by omma and the other servile members of the clan that your every whim and opinion matters, but in the real world it don’t count for shit.
@161: No, it’s not like moving to Virginia, is it? Maybe Koreans should be glad expats just take out their frustrations here, rather than following the example of your countryman with cultural adjustment problems, Cho Seung-hui.
Some people in here can actually speak Korean but for most part they can’t. When some drunk make a rude comment I respectfully speak to him in Korean and the confrontation is over. I’m a foreigner in Korea I realize there is a stigma of Americans (mostly men) who come here that never learns Korean, date Korean girls, and think the world revolves around them, it doesn’t. It’s arrogant people like Gabe Hudson that give Americans a bad name.
By the response that people in this group give, I don’t blame Korean men for having such dislike for white men in Korea. My best friend thought I was the typical white guy in Korea but now he is the first person to speak up for me when there is a problem. Gabe Hudson’s action / mentaility is the reason why Korean men have such dislike for white men in Korea.
Some of my close friends are westerners…
For those new to Korea who wonder if swlee is the only sort of Korean friend they’ll be able to have, don’t worry – there are also many Koreans who are very different from him.
#201 – I also tried to date a few Kyopo males and a Korean national male. All of those guys got smiles, thumbs up, and only positive endorsements from all Koreans when we were together. They all knew we were a couple too. Double standards apply almost everywhere.
On a side note, a fellow American teacher told me that whenever he walked down the street with a pretty Korean girl he got the stink eye from Koreans. However, when if the girl was not much to look at nobody ever bothered him. Consider your woman to be good looking if you guys are getting stares (or worse) from the Koreans.
Wow… 224 comments. What’s the record?
225 now.
Strange here.You here seem to grasp de facto facts to the contrary.
Korean males are affirmitive proponets for sex deals. Koreans have a trait to make an easy stratum at a glance and are eager to go the higher steps. Koreans do not like logical reasoning which needs time and brain activity. Koreans are strong to the feeble and feeble before the strong.
In these verified premises, let’s inspect the scenes from the first and combine the premises.
If Korean males intruded you, a foreign male and Korean female couple, it would be because she looked cheap not because she looked pretty as you guess. If she had looked expensive, which I mean she looked like a lady from the noble, rich or powerful, Korean males would have hided their teeth. They would have never intruded you. Miniskirt? It reveals that the girl in it is not in the control of her stern family, and makes her look cheap.
Korean males think her one of thier women? Pooh, Buyable? Of course, if an ugly-dugly Korean is with a foreign male, Korean males will not intrude, not because she’s not pretty but because the two are far below their steps. If a male who looks like one from the western country in Korean men’s eyes, look cheap, they will intrude. If a foreign looks expensive, they will not intrude. If one were a laborer from the poorer country, they will just disregard this Korean female and foreign male couple.
Even if you think I have made some contradictory statements, don’t refute to me. Koreans in itself have no consistency.
No. 226 nailed it. Close the thread.
Well, this kind of blatant things are done by, I guess, returners from USA who poured money into USA as a revenge to thier maladjustment in USA. Increase of hostile Koreans, accoring to Metropolitan, says it.
INTERRACIAL DATING FOR DUMMIES by Fred Reed
A Good Thing, Maybe; True Love, Maybe Not
Where I live, the sight of a black guy walking with a (usually blonde) white woman is no longer startling, although many are not at all happy about it. The media celebrate interracial dating as A Good Thing, showing that irrational prejudices are at last dying out and a better world is coming into existence. The national problem is finally going away.
In the long run they may be right. More is involved, though, than boy-meets-girl.
Black men in this country have always been fascinated by white women, at times almost obsessed, because of the forbidden-fruit principle. Until recently, the social message, often explicit, was that blacks weren’t good enough to touch a white woman. Bitterness runs deep in black men over this. (This is hardly a secret. Read the first chapter of Soul On Ice.)
The social order is now changing. While black men enjoy a new world, black women (if the television specials are right) don’t much like it. Although blacks oppose discrimination by color, they have always held to a color code among themselves by which lighter women were better. This preference by their men angers black women — dark women who get overlooked, light ones pursued chiefly for their color, and black women in general, who resent losing, every time. (White women, incidentally, at least some of them, similarly resent Asian women, who charm white men by virtue of their femininity and looks. Asian women, however, are few enough as not to pose a real threat.)
The media and advertising industry understand the color code perfectly. Note how often, when you see a black man and woman on a magazine cover, the woman is lighter. And how few dark women show up at all.
Hostility arises that doesn’t meet the eye. On average, white men hate to see black men dating whites. (So do a whole lot of white women.) In places like Washington people won’t say so publicly. Privately they do.
Human behavior usually consists of rational justification of limbic instincts. A powerful instinct of all males is to protect their women from outsiders. People of other colors are outsiders. In slave days, black men were furious that they could not prevent sexual access to their women by white men. Today, the role is being reversed. Black guys know it, and revel in it. White men don’t like to admit their resentment because to do so underlines their inability to do anything about it.
It’s more than dating. It’s potentially explosive sexual competition.
Instincts involving sex aren’t always obvious, but they are there, and powerful. An example: I like the Japanese, have great respect for their intelligence individually and for their society (extraordinarily productive, unfailingly courteous, almost free of crime.) Yet if my daughter told me she planned to marry a Japanese boy of impeccable credentials, I’d nonetheless feel a visceral resentment. I wouldn’t act on it, but I’d feel it. By contrast, if my son told me he planned to marry a similarly admirable Japanese girl, I’d think he was one lucky guy. The instinct is to protect the women, not the men.
Sex as a weapon of conquest, of struggle for dominance among males, is a dark corner of human behavior that we don’t talk about. It exists. Raping the women of one’s enemies has been a common military practice until recent times — American armies have done it — and still is if one believes reports from Yugoslavia.
White men regularly had their way with slave women, and you can believe that dominance, as well as sex, was involved. Dinesh D’Souza,* the Indian-born scholar now at the American Enterprise Institute, noted in his The End of Racism, (page 408, from FBI statistics) “. . . in 1991 there were 100 cases of white rapists assaulting black victims compared with more than 20,000 cases of black rapists attacking white victims — a result that is especially remarkable considering that rapes are usually perpetrated not just for sex but in order to control, dominate, and humiliate women.” And also, he doesn’t add, their men.
Where white women fit into interracial dating is less clear. Black men are physically more attractive than white, being better built and more muscular — and usually able to beat the stuffing out of white men, which whites of both sexes know. They are also unapologetically masculine (and misogynist, but that can be played down when useful), more assertive, and often charming. White-collar Caucasian men these days tend to be neutered, carefully inoffensive, and in general browbeaten by militant feminism. It is easy to see how a white woman who wanted a masculine man would find a good-looking black guy appealing. Also, given that white women today seem to dislike white men almost as much as blacks do, dating a black guy may be a way of getting even.
There’s a whole lot more going on here than boy meets girl.
The media, particularly television and the movies, have recently begun vigorously promoting interracial liaisons. The number of blacks on television in general has risen sharply. Why, I don’t know, not being privy to the councils of Hollywood. Perhaps it’s just political correctness.
On the other hand, a lot of folk believe that the only way out of our racial impasse is to breed ourselves into one in-between race. Blacks are not going to go back to Africa, say these folk correctly, nor whites to Europe. Therefore we either blend or stay forever divided. The logic to this point is hard to refute.
Our customary division on racial lines isn’t satisfactory, runs this argument. It promotes injustice, and may be dangerous: The country really could go up in flames. Therefore the sooner we intermarry, the sooner our racial antagonisms will disappear. The truth of this theory is much less clear, but is not insane by any means. It seems to be what’s being promoted.
Where are we headed? Certainly toward a whole lot more dating and intermarriage: This is a cork that won’t go back into the bottle. In the long run, if no explosion occurs, the country will probably evolve toward the example of Brazil. Whether the consequence in the short run will be improvement in racial relations is far less certain.
The effects for a long time will be mainly psychological, as statistically significant blending won’t occur soon. Too many blacks live in insular ghettoes, speak Ebonics, and are barely socialized. For them, the prospects of intermarriage are small. The better educated and well-spoken may marry whites, but the vast urban enclaves will remain behind, slowly growing.
Maybe things will work out well. I hope so. But it ain’t just true love.
‘On average, white men hate to see black men dating whites. (So do a whole lot of white women.) In places like Washington people won’t say so publicly. Privately they do.’
the only difference between white and korean men is, korean men are just more truthful. the comment above is spot-on. why else do you not see black men and white women in say, our television?
it’s kind of ironic that it’s the korean man giving the white one a taste of his own medicine. lol.
‘I guarantee you that if this ever happened to Pawi (i.e. someone gave him crap or even looked at him the wrong way for having a hot white chick on his arm’
imagine an expat talking about someone else using prostitutes. i’d bet three quarters of all expats in korea are users.
Well 230 posts later and it appears that the consensus is… surprise surprise… racism is bad and when I’m with my Korean honey, Mr. Ajosshi, I’d really appreciate it if you’d mind your own fucking business. Right?
Hey, I think that’s a fair thing to say, but if you do read the comments in serial progression, particularly if you are a Korean who can read English, it does sound like a tacit condemnation of Korean society. You know, the typical expat titrate that can get annoying for Koreans to listen to. I will admit though in this particular case it’s less aggressive in this post than in other instances. However, I’d hazard to guess that despite this negative experience that a significant number of you people, hell maybe even a slight majority, still had an overall positive experience in Korea and of Koreans in general.
Now, I also think it’s fair to say that discrimination of multi-ethnic couples occurs in other parts of the world even Western ones. Now most of this discrimination occurred in the past. To most people in this blog “the past” means “we’ve learned and grown up” so why can’t Korea? Well, in terms of industrialization and maturization of society, Korea is still in the 60′s or 50′s per say vs. Western societies. For example, families are still extended rather than nuclear, kids still live with their parents until they are married, dad rules the household, etc. You know those days in America where the Beaver could come out and play and Daddy knew best? Korea is still in that phase. It’s made more intense by the fact that Korea is a confucian AND monoethnic society. Naturally they are going to have a more conservative viewpoint on what a relationship is going to be.
In certain instances Korean society’s viewpoint are more mature then the Western perspective and sometimes it’s less mature. For example, in my opinion, when it comes to family obligations, I personally believe that the Korean view of putting family first above the North American Mega Me is more mature. When it comes to race and how to view a multi-ethnic society, Korea’s view is less mature than the typical Western country. So it’s like this, you may not like how a 10 year old kid is acting about something, particularly if it’s irrational, but you are still tolerant of the actions because you know he’s a kid and he’s still learning. I know I’m not going to be popular for saying this, but I’d wish some of you people could show a similar type of tolerance.
In my opinion, it’s okay to complain. However, that complaining, when done loudly enough, and without balance or consideration of context can be interpreted as condemning or worse- hostile. I think the place that many have viewed as your temporary (in most cases) or permanent home and in many cases the birthplace of those you love, deserves more than that, don’t you?
#229 — Quoting Dinesh D’Souza, a racist on race? How apropos for Bluejives.
“Too many blacks live in insular ghettoes, speak Ebonics, and are barely socialized. For them, the prospects of intermarriage are small. The better educated and well-spoken may marry whites, but the vast urban enclaves will remain behind, slowly growing.”
I’m not even going to waste my time with this completely misinformed, truly amateurish amateur sociologizing. I’ll just say to read a little William Julius Wilson, a real sociologist whose opinion on race is actually respected, as opposed to D’Souza, an English major whose claim to fame was being a bitch snitch on liberals on campus, and who successfully transferred his usefulness as a raving racist with brown skin into a career as a professional misanthrope. Look him up on Wikipedia if you don’t know him. I’ve seen him speak and debate in person, and the man’s a blithering idiot. He doesn’t impress.
And it seems like “Netizen Kim” is as much out of touch with reality as his idol D’Souza is, to call blacks “barely socialized” in American society. Or are the only blacks you know the one you see in Master P videos?
As the US stands ready to very possibly elect a black president, you’re going to quote a far right, racist conservative whose career peaked in the mid-90′s to prove that black men are still hankering to rape white women, and still aren’t fit to live in greater society? And as if blacks chose to live in these “insular ghettoes” by choice. These aren’t “ethnic enclaves,” dude — the “ghettoization” was not voluntary. Or did you miss half of American history and Black Codes, Jim Crow, or the fact that blacks were cut out of both the GI Bill and the Federal Housing Administration by statute? That’s what created the white middle class and suburban sprawl, and what first started the “ghettoes” of which you speak.
If you’re gonna play amateur sociologist, learn the basics first — or at least something — before you start trying to talk like someone who knows more than the average well-informed high school student.
Your idiocy is astounding.
Ah, let the flames commence. Jeez, you’re so predictable, I feel I already know what you’re going to say. Ad hominem attacks on my appearance, skin color, or mixed parentage? Or whine about how elitist and arrogant I am? That’d sum up pretty much all your previous comebacks.
How about this, Netizen Kim? How about at least coming back with something that LOOKS like any kind of convincing argument backed up with some kind of facts or reasonable explanation to convince us of your argument about how you think blacks “are?”
Disagree I will, but at least it’d be an interesting change of pace for you, besides a string of stereotypical generalizations about whites, blacks, and all types of people that say more about your own warped psyche than describe the complexity of reality.
Or are you gonna just come back with playground insults?
Really curious…
i wonder sometimes if the metro is urkel.
Pawi, don’t delude yourself. Koreans are not giving Americans a “taste of their own medicine”, as White man/Korean woman != Black man/White woman
I wonder sometimes why Pawi doesn’t go to Korea. Just a friendly question, no sarcasm implied. But really, the way you talk, I don’t understand why you still live in the states.
Pawi?
It actually does seem like a fair comparison, except it’s more like mexican men with a white women = white men with korean women…..
Pawi…
Everyone’s favorite straw man!..
So we’ve learned that Koreans are horrible, evil, xenophobic, and irreformable.
Anyone who’s spent a couple of months or more in Korea already knows this. Either s/he knows it and acknowledges it, or knows it and suppresses it.
Yawn . . .
pawi LOVES to employ strawmen as the mainstay of nearly all his arguments, but he is not a strawman, strictly or generally speaking. Whipping boy, maybe. I like to think of him as an expert witness who opens windows into ways of thinking that are not fathomable to so many of us.
‘I wonder sometimes why Pawi doesn’t go to Korea. Just a friendly question, no sarcasm implied. But really, the way you talk, I don’t understand why you still live in the states.’
when i see you ask the same of others here, that is, why they would continue to live in korea, i’ll consider answering your question. the way i talk? no sarcasm, but can you see your own hypocrisy in singling me out?
and doggie, all non white americans here can see how so many of you act just like that black man who sees a plot in everything the white man does. it’s the same thing, sorry if you no likee that.
You are deluded. Maybe it is time for you to ship your hypocritical self back to the motherland as so many have recommended.
deluded? sorry. to me, most of you act like the black man i described.
The only thing I know about Dinesh D’Souza is that he debated Christopher Hitchens in a public forum on the topic of religion.
The entire article is the express opinion of one Fred Reed. I thought I made that clear in the heading. I’ve always respected Fred Reed’s commentary on a wide array of controversial topics because his thoughts are uncluttered by the dogma of political correctness. He may not always be entirely right, nor what he says anything what one wants to hear, but you sense he always has a genuine intention to grasp at the truth. If I’m not being accused of plagiarizing Reed by dogbert or sonagi the it is you attributing his words as if I had written them myself.
Furthermore, my intention was not to get into a debate about the sociology of blacks but rather to expose the salient points that he makes about what many people think of interracial relationships, which is the topic at hand.
Ah, let the flames commence. Jeez, you’re so predictable, I feel I already know what you’re going to say. Ad hominem attacks on my appearance, skin color, or mixed parentage?
I never made fun of your appearance. Perhaps other people have. As the great philosopher Jay-Z once said, you need to get…that…dirt off your shoulders.
Bluejives, the accusations of your plagiarism were correct — but lately you do credit Reed for his writings, once you realized someone besides yourself was familiar with them.
Pawi, I won’t bother to explain why your comparison is inept. Suffice to say that if we look at the historical basis for Koreans’ feelings on the matter, it’s fair to note that Horace Underwood and his cohort did not arrive and fulfill their roles in Korea the way Kunta Kinte and his did in America.
The official record is 511 in the “Foreign teacher sacrificed to the Dokdo gods” thread. This one isn’t even halfway there, nor does it really look like it’ll go the distance.
Actually, he’s violating the copyright of Fred Reed, quoting D’Souza on race. I’d call the FBI on NK, but don’t really like Fred Reed anyhow. Let the dickhead police his own copyrights.
‘Course, if a lion in Africa comes up and attacks you unprovoked, you’re generally allowed to shoot it.
Anyhow, hope this thread dies way before #511…
“This actually makes me feel very sorry for Koreans since they basically are in the unfortunate situation in which their choice to compensate for feelings of inadequecies by overly going in the opposite direction (bragging and boasting of Korean historical achievements as evidence of superiority, bragging about how more phsically beautiful Korean people and culture is, etc.) makes them appear to be very immature and insecure. Thus, in the end, although they don’t realize it, the Koreans themselves, not foreigners, are their own worst enemy.”
#62, that is no more different than how some Caucasians think they are superior to others or that they should have the red carpet rolled out for them because they are Caucasian. Also insecurties are within every group not just Koreans.
I think cake is much better than pie.
With so many comments it is easy to overlook some of them, but this gem from slim (#214) is worth repeating.
Yep, these are the types of guys that are likely to cause problems. Koreans to avoid whenever possible.
Pawi,
Sorry, still didn’t answer my question. Nice dodge, though!
I had plenty of time to ask people that question when I actually lived there. After that, I left myself. Most of the people who go, DO LEAVE, but many of them fulfill their obligations before doing so.
I would hope that by reading my comments you could see that I didn’t just go to Korea to get drunk and sleep with cheap women, like you generally accuse “the expat” of doing. I learned the language, I got along with the locals, tried the food, learned some history, etc.
I have been polite to you for quite a while, including the last comment I directed towards you, and you react with venom from your keyboard. How dare you judge all these people! You have never met any of them, you yet you hold ALL of them in contempt and hold yourself in the highest regard when you have done nothing to garner respect. You have not shown education, experience, and worst of all, tolerance. The one positive thing about reading your comments is that it reminds me that not everyone is forward thinking, and that some people are only capable of thinking in the dichotomy of Korean=good and everything else everywhere=bad.
You know the best part? You work so hard on this forum to show that the Koreans are never at fault, but your posts here just confirmed that Koreans are bigoted towards anyone else non-Korean. Well done.
You still have not answered my question.
Yep, these are the types of guys that are likely to cause problems. Koreans to avoid whenever possible. If you do encounter this type of guy, exercise extreme caution! Do NOT approach, do NOT attempt to molest it. Back away slowly and quietly with no sudden movement. At the first opportunity, check your breathing, pulse and other vital signs. You may have been affected by the near encounter without your knowledge. They are extremely dangerous and Koreans to avoid whenever possible.
My god, you guys still getting cooties from girls ?
I school WJK:
WJK asked:
“has South Korea ever made it ILLEGAL for a Korean woman to marry a foreign man?”
Well YES, in a way YES, Mr. 3-initial. South Koren women who married a foreign man were stripped of their citizenship up until after the dictatorship era, when a Korean woman challenged this all the way up to the Korean Supreme Court who had no choice but to admit it was outrageously illegal and against the Korean constitution.
I await your thanks and admission that this particular chain of logic has collapsed. You’ve been schooled.
‘Well YES, in a way YES, Mr. 3-initial. South Koren women who married a foreign man were stripped of their citizenship up until after the dictatorship era…’
an absolute lie.
‘As the US stands ready to very possibly elect a black president…’
what black are you talking about? if you’re talking bout obama, he’s mixed race, not black. can i ask? if obama is black because he’s half black, is obama white because he’s half white?
if i order a black cofee and get coffee and cream, should i consider the coffee black because a sig. % is black coffee?
we may have our first bi racial president and it’s fitting that he’s a mixture of the two races that got america started.
blacks may have to wait for a truly black president.
Soo #68. Don’t be intimidated by that other response. It is an occupation. US forces have been in Korea for nearly 60 years. Their presence drives a wedge into Korean domestic policy and is a continual sore spot. Having a foreign military force in your country on a continual basis is a royal pain for many Koreans here (I’m American). Now the reasons for that occupation are many, including reassuring jittery foreign investors about the investment environment, but it is an occupation, complicated and ambivalent though it may be.
As for the “bravura” of aaronm, you should keep in mind that the split of Korea postwar was MacArthur’s idea as a trade for keeping Japan under complete US control. In effect, the US created the conditions for the split of the country when Korea could well have been left to find its own post-war path while Japan might have instead been split like Germany into quadrants of occupation. Koreans have never forgotten this particular slight and so when the military from the same country that effectively broke you in two comes to occupy your country for as long as the US has, it is naturally resented. It’s a resentment that gains my complete solidarity and commiseration and it explains just about everything that needs to be explained about why Mr. Hudson often does not have a good time in Korea. The same for the rest of the board who can’t fathom the psychology of a postcolonial society.
Now, if as a result of this, you want to call me a Korean “apologist,” I’ll turn the tables on you and call you an American one. But ignorant is perhaps the more appropriate description.
I get wood anytime someone lectures me about “postcolonial society.”
Sorry.
They have, however, forgotten who actually liberated the country before “effectively breaking it in two,” as you’ll no doubt ascertain from recent presidential addresses on 8.15.
Or, it could just be the commonplace racism cum sexism that one finds in many societies. But you’re probably right — despite having a long history of xenophobia and sexism of its own, it’s probably all America’s fault. Might also explain why non-Americans and non-Westerns experience many of the same problems.
Damn that postcolonialism!
Why are all the dippiest new posters here — celadon, swlee, dungchimp99 — flying Australian flags?
Did the new Rudd government down there empty asylums and dump a bunch of losers on Korea’s shores?
Did you get the triple crown – BS, MS Ph&D – from the Bruce Cumings School of Historical Misinterpretation? And fail to get passing grades? Even Brucie gets some of the basic facts right, and one of them is NOT that MacArthur had anything to do with setting the demarcation line between Russian and US forces in Korea at the 38th parallel. That was done by then young Lt. Colonel Dean Rusk (many years later Secretary of State)and another staff officer by the name of Bonesteel, under the supervision of John. J. McCloy, who was the civilian with the WarDepartment and head of the Army/Navy Coordination Committee.
Sperwer is right.
The problem with the Internet is that the reasonable voices are often drowned out by the sheer mass of unreasonable voices, as the example of Korea amply demonstrates.
Ah good, another asshole who doesn’t understand or appreciate Bruce Cumings. Nice! Of course, if you had read my post more carefully, you would have noticed that I didn’t say that MacArthur was responsible for setting the demarcation line. He was responsible for keeping Japan as a complete zone of US occupation and paving the way for the eventual split of Korea.
Koehler, it might be time for you to wake up and smell the coffee on postcolonial societies. I mean “post” in all senses of the word–”after” as well as “against.” It explains an awful lot about this place. You neglected to note that after the liberation, the US brought back the Japanese colonial police and refused to work with the people’s committees. Nice liberation there. Independence delayed as well.
Slim, I may be new to this board, but I’ve been in Korea since 1995 and I even work at the same affiliated university as Mr. Hudson, and I’ve done so since 1997. I’ve also been through every type of experience enumerated by the posters on this board. Much of this stuff can be readily disarmed with a little bit of social savoir-faire and common sense. It doesn’t always work. Sometimes, you’re assaulted and there’s nothing you can do about it. But don’t dwell on it and move on. Cumings got spit on full in the face back in the 60s. it didn’t stop him from making peace with the place. I agree with the poster who said that the degree of negative response is usually commensurate with the level of attractiveness and relative youth of the woman. The best solution in a restaurant of the kind that Hudson frequents is to stand up to the man, look him in the eye and tell him in any language to leave. If that doesn’t work, ask the restaurant owner to do something about it. If that doesn’t work, leave yourself. I’ve been in restaurants eating alone and had Korean men shouting at the top of their lungs while I was merely reading a newspaper, and my response was to completely and utterly ignore them. It has worked wonders. Try it sometime.
For all the people that say this doesn’t happen: it happens. I had experienced this 3 times with my Korean wife within our first year of living here.
Granted, all the times Koreans have gone out of their way to treat me kindly far outways these few bad experiences. But I dont here about this kind of thing happening as frequently in Japan or Chinese speaking countries.
It may surprise you, but I was an African studies major, which means I probably read much of the postcolonial crap as you.
Difference is, I outgrew it. Who knows? Someday, you may, too.
In the meantime, keep up the good fight against the US occupation!
You neglected to note that after the liberation, the US brought back the Japanese colonial police and refused to work with the people’s committees. Nice liberation there. Independence delayed as well.
I’m sure it would have been much better had the “people’s committee” taken over! BTW, the story of the JP colonial police being reinstated is kinda new to me. Care to elaborate? For how long did they administer? Were they ethnic Japanese?
I think Australia should sue. Somehow, all the lefty comments are being routed through their servers.
Regarding the snarky title of this post, and the first couple of ensuing sarcastic posts. Curious to see the local yokels scatter and hide behind provincial irony, when confronted with world-class talent suddenly appearing in their tiny patch of the world. In that sense, you don’t seem much different than the belligerent Korean man described in the article. Reading all the above personal anecdotes only confirms for me that Mr. Hudson was onto something with his article. You might at least try a little harder to conceal the fact that you feel threatened by the sudden appearance of this article, and it’s especially curious considering the person who runs this blog purports to be involved with some form of print media there in Seoul. His remarks and sarcasm easily betray his jealousy. Look no further than his “if I had a chance…” which might as well state, “Why won’t I ever have the chance?” Full diclosure: I don’t know Mr. Hudson personally but I do run in the same New York literary circles. If you’re not involved with contemporary world literature, Mr. Hudson is sorta famous, known as a kind of modern day Hemingway figure for our times. His novel, Dear Mr. President, is now considered a classic and is taught in high schools and colleges across the country, right alongside The Things They Carried, Catch-22, and Slaughter-House Five. As an editor and teacher, he’s also known as a tireless champion of other peoples’ writing. Funny thing is, if you ever met Mr. Hudson there in Seoul, you would probably be asking him for his help in getting your writing to a wider audience, and he would probably give it. Now that’s irony. Perhaps next time you suddenly encounter international talent in your neck of the woods, you might respond with a little less irony, jealousy, and attack mode, and little more humility and sincerity.
Seems that the article in question was subsequently published in the International Herald Tribune:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/10/opinion/edhudson.php
Welcome,
Gabe“Ed”.Hey Ed, perhaps you should stick to your literary circle-jerk of mutual back-patting dorks. The article was a pile of shit (or feces, as its known in contemporary world literature), and it displayed an embarrassing lack of depth and understanding, especially for such an international superstar on par with Hemingway.
The problem for Gabe is that this blog is filled with dozens of people who do have significant depth of understanding of Korea, and they’re able to sniff out a steaming pile without much effort. He may very well have written a good book about the Middle East, but no one gives much of a fuck.
He’s being judged based on what he wrote about Korea, not by how many blow jobs he gets from those that run in your literary circle. For someone that doesn’t know Mr. Hudson personally, you have more than your share of his literary jizz dripping down your chin.
Ed,
If someone from here wrote a confused and confusing piece about your literary circles in New York, you and your buddies would be trash talking it over Papa Hemingway cocktails for weeks. Why do you expect people in Korea to do less?
Please post some links with Mr Hudson being described as “a kind of modern day Hemingway figure for our times.” I’d love to read more about the “international talent” that has come to Korea. (Do you know that Ms. Spears was here, too? And Keanu Reeves? We get all the big names.)
Just make sure that you’re not including links with Dave Eggers posting under assumed names on Amazon.
Ed needs an editor: dependent clauses stuck on their own; second-person plural usage changing from specific to general without notice; a run-on paragraph which begs for separation into smaller logically-separated paragraphs – and that’s just from the first few sentances. If Ed ‘runs in literary circles’, he surely doesn’t run alone; as evidenced by his post, someone needs to pick up his mess after he cruises by.
Ed, your deficit of writing skills aside, how do you reconcile your use of the expression ‘local yokels scatter[ing] and hid[ing] behind provincial irony, when confronted with world-class talent suddenly appearing in their tiny patch of the world’ with your call for ‘a lttle less…attack mode, and a little more humility and sincerity’?
Mr. Hudson’s book Dear Mr. President has gotten good reviews, but he’s still an FOB and wrote like one, boasting that he was the “only Westerner in the joint,” getting a hard-on because his girlfriend tells him he “eats better than a Korean man,” and portraying himself as some waegook John Wayne ready to “break the face” of a xenophobic ajosshi. Being an expert in one field does not make one an expert in another. Greenhorn Mr. Hudson has much to learn about Korea. Striking a Korean for whatever reason is a real-life “Go directly to jail” card.
Given that much of Hudson’s literary cred appears to come from his misrepresentation of, or willful permission to others (his publishers) to misrepresent, his military service as a biographical crutch so that he might be a “war novelist” espousing a certain political perspective beloved in New York literary circles, I am dubious of his “greatness” as propounded by these probable sock puppets.
So much of greatness these days is merely a combination of Fight the Power!™/”Buck Fush” leftish posing coupled with outré personal behavior that I am weary of all such claims.
Gabe Hudson, in interviews, is coy about his enlistment in the Marine Forces Reserve (in one piece I read, he says he thinks he enlisted in 1993 — who doesn’t remember something like that?) as an infantryman well after the Gulf War was over and claims his receipt of the National Defense Service Medal makes him a “Gulf War-era veteran”. Gimme a break. Yet that service record is hailed as making Dear Mr. President some authentic true-life literary masterpiece from a real war veteran.
That may make poncy literary types cream their designer jeans in New York City, Washington, San Francisco and LA — but for the rest of us from flyover country, some of whom also received the National Defense Service Medal for our heroic efforts moving furniture from one room to another in a Camp Humphreys SCIF while the Gulf War was actually going on, it rankles.
His books and short stories may be good, but that piece in the New York Times Magazine? Ecch.
Also, there was one jarring malapropism that stuck in my craw: I looked up and saw a middle-aged Korean man in a suit leering over our table. (Emphasis added.)
A good editor would have told the Great Writer Hudson the word he was looking for was looming. A middle-aged Korean man might have leered at them from his seat at a table beside them, but if one has to look up to see the man doing something “over” Hudson’s table, and then stand up to confront him as he moves closer, the thing the bothersome, finger-jabbing interloper was doing was looming.
Hey, at least “Ed” didn’t threaten to break my face.
I’ll go back to feeling threatened by the sudden appearance of international talent now.
This is some hilarious shit. Does anyone think “Ed” is not Gabe?
An anonymous fellow passionately defending a relatively-unknown author as if he were his woman. Hemingway redux? LMAO!
No way, Won Joon. To the contrary, we poor yokels here in Seoul are blessed with two gen-u-wine New York literary-circle types slumming it here with us.
Mr. Hudson was a finalist for the Hemingway/PEN award last year, but among the book reviews I’ve read, none has directly likened his writing to that of Hemingway.
Wow! Could you please give us some examples of prominent high schools and colleges using Dear Mr. President in literature or other courses? Since it’s being taught “across the country,” that shouldn’t be too hard.
Lots of things are being taught across the country. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen Tristan Taormino’s Ultimate Guide to Anal Sex for Women, a true classic, on college reading lists too.
My high school library had a subscription to Cat Fancy magazine. That doesn’t make it great literature.
I don’t know about dear mr president, i think #272 summed it up pretty well, but I recommend this latest NYT piece as something that should be read in schools and colleges around the US as an example of how an american most often is overseas. Hes got a local slut, arrogant self righteous nature, propensity for violence, naive sense of adventure (only foreigner in a restaurant in insadong? gee, if he’d have only gone a little further off the tourist trail he’d have found Kurtz).
If I was his editor, I would merely recommend the addition of plot devices such as climbing on the roof of a taxi or breaking the old man’s face and spending a night in jail.
Read the reviews at Amazon. Most of the 5-star love letters were written by one-review wonders shortly after the book’s publication, including three gushing reviews on the same day! One reviewer wonders, “First, there’s the contention that the book isn’t funny at all. How is a story about an ear growing out of a man’s chest not funny?”
Maybe Mr. Hudson could line up work writing for Korean comedy shows.
“I’m pretty sure I’ve seen Tristan Taormino’s Ultimate Guide to Anal Sex for Women, a true classic, on college reading lists too.”
Is that from that famous porno humanities class at University of Iowa?
“. . . only foreigner in a restaurant in insadong? gee, if he’d have only gone a little further off the tourist trail he’d have found Kurtz”
ok sw, you got me with that one. hilarious!
No need to call the guy’s gf a slut. That said, the Kurtz line is classic and really should be taught in high school classes across the United States.
Brendon’s post reminded me of that fateful day during my junior (I think) year in college when we had two highly-publicized, competing public lecture events:
Choice #1 was a debate between the noted political theorist Roger Masters and the conservative publicist Dinesh D’Souza on racism (I think The End of Racism had just come out).
Choice #2 was a presentation by Nina Hartley on, among other things, how to give the perfect blow-job.
It was an existential choice of gripping import that divided friends and professors alike at the time.
Thanks for livening up this post, ED.
#282,
Robert, I agree. I think some of your regulars could be our generation’s Proust or Mann–if only they “ran” in the right literary circles.
D’Souza could’ve given that presentation as well.
Good lord. you are joking, yes?
I pick up rock to see what’s under.
Good luck witth all this. I put rock back down.
Thanks for stopping by,
Gabe“Ed”.Way to answer,
GabeEd.Thank for stop by and speak us.
It is a wonder that people actually think that the “impartial 3rd party observer” thing actually works.
Ed would have been better of coming in and saying “look, I didn’t mean to sound like an a**hole, but it was an off the cuff comment etc etc etc, and you really had to be there”. I think the reaction would have been a lot more positive.
Quite a lively topic. In Gabe’s defense, I heard that the article was what the NYT editors wanted to put together from snippets of several different pieces that he submitted. The point was how much Gabe loves living in Seoul and was not any attempt to place Koreans in a bad light. Just a slice of life thing. But before he can find his groove in this city, he had to overcome some obstacles. If he simply gushed about what a wonderful time he was having, it just wouldn’t have been as interesting. Personally, I didn’t think these kinds of confrontations happened that often anymore, but after reading through this thread I see there’s still a lot of nonsense in the Land of Mad-Cow Calm.
Just a comment about all the gratuitous bashing about his writing. The piece may not be a literary masterpiece, but it’s not as bad as some make it sound. There’s no question that Gabe’s a talent. Just ask Joyce Carol Oates and Toni Morrison who are some of his fans. And he really does mean it when he says he would just as equally threaten an American idiot as he would a Korean idiot. He’s just that kind of guy.
Gabe should get some kudos for putting Seoul on the literary map back in the US. It’s about time somebody circulated stories from Korea out there for a larger audience. If you don’t like his piece, give him some positive feedback and some encouragement so the next time he’ll do better. There’s still a lot of people who have no idea Korea even exists. Gabe’s drawing some attention to this part of the world for a new group of people, and I think that’s just fantastic.
Why couldn’t Korea have got Dave Eggers out there to teach? Or even just a Chuck Klosterman seminar?
William Vollman would’ve been perfect.
Justaguy
I didn’t mind the writing by Gabe either.
But saying that, “Gabe should get some kudos for putting Seoul on the literary map back in the US.” is far-far-far from the truth of what is happening at Yonsei Underwood College. It is not just Gabe, if you take the time to look at other individuals teaching real classes at the college you will find several others doing great work there.
I enjoyed the piece by Gabe but I do have a problem with a Yonsei professor who writes the New York Times about telling some middle aged Korean (jerk) guy “I’ll break your face” because he looked at him the wrong way.
I have past experience with Yonsei and that kind of thinking is not part of the Yonsei mission statement.
I want to see toni morrison on misuda,
Shed get so angry she’d spit watermelon seeds.
I’d think that’s just fantastic!
Surprised to see anyone grouse about this getting some press in the US. I wish there’d be 100 more stories like it that also describe what happens to any poor bastard that HITS that Korean guy, even if he’s hit first.
I’m putting my money on Ed being King Baeksu redux.
Hey, here’s a Harvard something–oh I don’t know it exactly, whom I invited. ^^v
“Justaguy” = Gabe III?
Ed at #287, shit! Was that haiku?
Looks like
Gabe Edjustaguy doesn’t bother to read the NYT or he’d know that Korea has gotten prolific coverage relative to its neighbors thanks to Norimitsu Onishi and Choe Sang-hun.Yeah, I’m smelling a sock puppet with Justaguy too. Shades of Lee Siegel and “sprezzatura”. I guess this is another way of bringing Seoul closer to literary NYC.
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