One of the most talked about subjects in the Hole right now is, you guessed it, the importation of US beef and the subsequent protests that followed. From reading the comments here, one gets the idea that the commentators whether they be expat or kyopo have more or less concluded that the protestors are an ignorant mob being fueled by left-wing rhetoric and being goaded to attack LMB at his secure compound behind and above Kyungbok-goong. This is also what the Chojoongdong(Chosun, Joongang, Dong-A dailies) wants the average Korean like me to believe. Personally, I don’t have anything against US beef or its import. Heck you are looking at a guy who with two of his Korean coworkers consumed pounds of it during a 6 month assignment in Orange County back in 2001. And yes, there is a part of me that wonders whether the protest have gone a bit far, but still there’s also a part of me that wonders whether we have been too quick to dismiss the protests as “left wing loonies” or “ignorant mob”. OK so let’s take this whole candlelight apart and see what’s there.
The common perception here in the Hole is that Koreans hate US beef and that Koreans think Hanwoo is superior. A diehard Korean nationalist will give you that answer and yes you will get that answer from some ordinary Koreans. Now if one were to ask a Korean about their preference, and prod them further some will admit that US beef is tastier, has better texture, and cheaper to boot. So then why all this anti-US beef rhetoric? And why this I rather buy more expensive Hanwoo thingy? Well the answer is simple. Nationalism and preference for things Korean, aside BSE. But, some if not most Koreans(protestors included) aren’t rejecting the US beef altogether. What they are rejecting is the beef they believe to be risky. Namely 30 month or older , brain, spine, you get the idea.
Now some Koreans(protestors included) know that you won’t drop like flies when one eats US beef, that there is no scientific evidence to prove conclusively that you get your brain melted by eating US beef, and that the OEI has concluded that US beef meets the standards. But the Koreans are asking when it comes to US beef that is 30 months or older, how do I know for sure it is safe? And this is where the whole thing begins.
Case in point. One of the KorAm commentator here stated that he has been eating US beef for years and that he is fine. And there was a press conference held by KorAm community leaders that stated that US beef was safe for Koreans to consume. OK KorAms know America and US beef for that matter better than Koreans so OK nothing to worry about, end of matter. Well, not exactly. My wife’s aunt who is a US citizen came to visit recently. My mother-in-law asked her about the US beef thing and she responded by saying that they don’t buy beef in the States anymore, because they don’t trust it. Also recently, a KorAm housewife supposedly came forward and said on national TV that after the recent case of Californian meat workers using forklifts to force cows to walk, that “even Americans don’t trust their own beef”. She also said that the KorAm community leaders did not consult with the community before they made their “US beef is safe” press conference. Now the average Korean is saying “hey even the kyopos are saying different things, so, is it safe or not?” And since the average Korean isn’t too sure, they are taking the safe side. Now enter LMB.
When LMB decided to open the doors real wide, people naturally got angry. Because they were expecting the President to think things through, listen to the concerns of the average Korean before opening the gates. But LMB in truly bulldozer style more or less bulldozed the whole things through. The average Korean who wanted to be on the safe side is now angry that the President doesn’t care about that and that he hasn’t and isn’t listening. So this isn’t enitrely about US beef, it isn’t entirely about the great US beef conspiracy, it’s mostly about Koreans wanting LMB to at least listen to their concerns and not bulldoze things down their throats. That’s why thousands of people are taking to the streets every night. Of course among those crowds are the occasional lefty and people who are there just for the fun of it. To be fair, even if LMB had been more careful with the beef issue, he wouldn’t have prevented the protests, but at the least they would have been small scale and wouldn’t have garnered too much interest like the ones last year when US beef imports were briefly resumed.
Now you might ask, why are the protestors not going against Aussie, Kiwi, and Korean beef? Well, the Aussie and NZ governments, IMO have done a good job of planting the image of their respective beef being safe and clean. It isn’t too hard to see the familiar Aussie beef logo and the slogan that says that they are grain fed, and so on. Also those two countries haven’t had a case of BSE, yet. Same for Korean beef. But that doesn’t mean Korean beef is sacred. Sometime during the 90s, a case of foot and mouth disease broke about among Korean cows, and Koreans stopped buying Korean beef. It was after a massive publicity campaign that involved images of top government officials eating yukhae(seasoned raw beef) and after of course the disease being supposedly controlled did Koreans go back to Korean beef.
Now this entry isn’t intended to defend the protests and the protestors. And yes there are a lots of holes and missing links. I am simply stating that there’s more it to than a bunch of leftist loonies whipping up the crowd to a frenzy and so forth. Hopefully this whole thing will blow over and all this beef thingy will become a memory for all of us.
115 Comments
Looks like a “peaceful” protest to me. lol
http://gall.dcinside.com/list......amp;page=1
“But for the ordinary Korean on the street, well the answer will be different. If one were to ask a Korean about their preference, first they will hem and haw, but if you prod them further some if not most will admit that US beef is tastier, has better texture, and cheaper to boot.”
Oh, please. Now you’re being just as nationalistic as the protesters.
Sorry. Wrong link.
This is the right link.
http://gall.dcinside.com/list......amp;page=2
#2.
Well what so nationalistic about that? And may I remind you that the few US beef that did make it through last year was sold out in a short time.
Just proves that consumers want affordable beef, not that American beef is tastier.
you post is too long, get to your point in a sentence or two
and add a Korean woman in a bikini.
“But for the ordinary Korean on the street, well the answer will be different. If one were to ask a Korean about their preference, first they will hem and haw, but if you prod them further some if not most will admit that US beef is tastier, has better texture, and cheaper to boot.”
I think this is wrong. Most doesn’t think that US beef is tastier, better texture and cheaper.
Most think that US beef is cheaper and lesser quality but tastier than Aussie beef which are grass-fed (= less marbling).
US-beef-being-inferior-quality perception is lingering from the days when all the imported beef from abroad were indeed cheap frozen-beef.
…curiosity no doubt had something to do with it, too.
A truly absurd analysis. Go down and witness firsthand the protesters. Many if not most of them are expressing 10-years plus of various pent-up frustrations, ones that could not be expressed properly under so-called leftist governments. Example: sending ROK troops to Iraq — Roh could do it, 2MB could not in a million years. Now that a conservative government is in power, the demonstrations will continue and get larger and more belligerent. They are “peaceful now,” but just wait. 2MB is toast. You simply do not understand the Korean mindset, and that’s perfectly understandable because you are a westerner. Korea is a profoundly Confucian culture, and only superficially modernized. Koreans are ticking time-bombs.
#7,
Yes, I totally agree. I like Australian beef quite a bit because it’s lean, but many Koreans don’t because it has less marbling. They see US beef(which is fattier than Australian beef) as a cheaper alternative to Korean beef, not a tastier one.
mins:
This is a good analysis. I’m glad somebody is willing to stand up and explain the Korean position, because I think every intelligent expat needs to stop making knee-jerk reactions every time Koreans pick up their candles.
For balance, the expat ire about the situation has very little to do with beef, as well. Most of us don’t care what Koreans eat, and a lot of us would like to see beef consumption fall, not rise (it’s bad for the environment, don’t you know). What frustrates us is the entrenched persecution complex that Koreans seem to display at every opportunity. This world view casts us Westerners in the role of Grand Oppressors of the Hangook Nation, and it’s tantamount to slander.
So the Koreans are more than welcome to criticize the government. But if they could please stop pretending that every move America makes is an attempt to keep Korea down, it’d be much appreciated.
OK, so maybe most wasn’t a good choice of wording.
Oxy is right in that Koreans consider US beef to be better than Aussie beef. As for Hanwoo versus US, well this is where obviously opinions differ.
Now, I don’t know how many Koreans you have talked to, but I have heard some Koreans say that US beef is better than Hanwoo. Now this is all matter of opinion, I agree. But still it shows that not all Koreans are in a “Hanwoo is better than US beef” mode.
Yeah hard, my post is way long and I wish there is a bikini photo that says it all. Maybe a Korean girl holding a sign saying “Eat US Beef?”
I agree. For most people at these protests, this seems to be more about protesting LMB than attacking the United States. I also think the crazies are in the minority, though they punch above their weight.
You have to ask the following: Would a purely domestic issue have anywhere near the mileage as one involving a perceived foreign demon, especially when the source is the US? I doubt it.
Just look at the environment. The Korean west coast recently got trashed by a massive oil spill - and Korean companies and regular people pollute the hell out of their beloved country on a daily basis - but it takes an American dumping a few gallons of embalming fluid into the Han River to trigger emotional and often violent protests that last for months.
Take the American element out of such a story and few people care enough about about health to demonstrate in the streets. Green Korea United continues to devote a disproportionate amount of time and effort to USFK pollution, because it is that is the particular variety that sells here.
Actually, I think they will say that Korean beef is better. And you will get the same answer from Aussies about Aussie beef, Kiwi’s from Kiwi beef, Albertans about Alberta beef etc etc. Doesn’t really matter though as price is the key determinant (when such a large gap) for consumption.
- LMB listening to opinions? Bullshit. He did in the elections. He is doing what he said he was going to do. If you expect him to listen to every (minority) opinion well then exactly nothing will get done for the next 5 years.
- that people protest it in the states? Not new news at all. Those have been going on for years and will continue into the future.
American beef is the great sale for the usual suspects - they get two for the price of one - America and Conservatives.
#9,
Getting the kids all riled up like that…It’s fascism, really.
I agree with Granfalloon and globalvillageidiot that the American element is hard to ignore and although it is there well…let’s just say this isn’t 2002 after the armored vehicle incident.
Also yesterday, while coming from Lotte Department Store, I did run into the protestors. It was something my wife and I wanted to avoid but since our route took us by City Hall, it was something that wasn’t easy to avoid. Anyway, I remember the mood while passing by City Hall Plaza during the 2002 incident, the mood was tense to say the least, but yesterday, well….
Let’s put it this way. There were a bunch of non Koreans milling around taking pictures and they sure didn’t look like they felt they were being threatened by the crowd. Not something you would expect in a place where kids are supposedly being roused into a “fascist” frenzy.
But anyway, yes Koreans shouldn’t get all worked up over America and they shouldn’t get into the victimization mood.
well written Mins, like a true Korean, who actually lives in Korea.
what I’ve been saying roughly, but you said it better.
So then why are all the “level headed” protesters actually telling kids they will die if they eat American beef just once?
The kids have been convinced that US beef IS, not may be, deadly.
Who has been telling them that?
These f*cking loonies in the streets and in the leftist, anti-US/anti-LMB propaganda and media!
And if the protesters and the average person on the street were so sensible, then they would not be concerned about the US beef issue. They would be focusing on something far more serious that the LMB administration is trying to do right now- privatization of health care.
Koreans should be very, very concerned about this!
However, they are not. They are focused on evil Americans trying to kill them with “old beef” and that LMB is cooperating with the US in this attempt.
As one poster on the Hole put it perfectly:
“Anti-US beef is a symptom. Anti-Americanism is the disease!”
BFK,
Is your post directed at the author of the original post? If so your ad hominem argument–”You simply do not understand the Korean mindset, and that’s perfectly understandable because you are a westerner”–may be misplaced, given that he is Korean.
But I tend to agree with the substance of your claims.
Benicio, although it was US beef that started it all, the protests has become a lightning rod for those who oppose LMB’s other policies.
I think I remember seeing a placard regarding the Grand Canal among the crowd in City Hall Plaza.
Well, this might turn into another notorious armored vehicle incident. Right now, the protestors’ target is Pres. Lee, but it might get worse as time goes on.
Yes, it was US beef that started it all (fooled by false rumors), but the protestors are conveniently changing reasons now after many of the rumors are found to be “false.” I’ve spent tremendous time to prove that US beef is safe and Korean beef is no better, and now this?? NO WAY!! They should pay for hours of research I’ve spent for nothing.
Many koreans never learn for their wrongdoings in the past and say sorry for their “ignorance.” They just forget afterwards like nothing happened. Their ignorance have made so many other Koreans suffer.
I’ll do everything in my power to humiliate the protestors and anyone who support them. They won’t get any excuse this time.
“US-beef-being-inferior-quality perception is lingering from the days when all the imported beef from abroad were indeed cheap frozen-beef.”
hmm… sounds like Hyundai’s story in America..
Anyway, I’ve never ever heard a Korean say US beef (nor Australian for that matter) is better than Korean Hanwoo.
After the 2002 memories, I thought that would have been the end of it. But now it’s the same thing all over again, but this time, for stupider reasons. Koreans forget that they are a trading nation.
In Korea there are many issues that affect the average person’s life.
Ok so here we have a group of people expressing their concern about US beef and it’s safety/ and or health consequences.
It’s nice to see so many Koreans concerned about each others welfare and their children’s welfare.
HOWEVER
Koreans are literally slaughtering children on the roads.
NO PROTESTS
Children are being poisoned by heavy metals and all the pollutants
NO PROTESTS
Children are being beaten and abused
NO PROTESTS
All these other issues ACTUALLY cause death, and health problems amongst the young.
So what is it that attracts protestors and gets them all worked up. Beef!
Now if these people were also protesting all the other issues, I’d have more respect for them.
I think this is a fair analysis of how the protesters have been thinking. It is important to keep in mind that the OP isn’t defending the protests but trying to understand the protests, and it was very easy to understand. However, the post also made me hunger for yukhwae, which pisses me off to no end due to its non-existence out here.
I really think that the best course of action is to label the parts of beef that are deemed as ‘high-risk’ for MCD or limit sales of those parts to less than 30 months old - otherwise, I really don’t think anyone can blame the Koreans for pausing when they want to enjoy cow-tail soup, gopchang, sagol, etc. (assuming this isn’t already in effect)
The problem is that Koreans distrust the US system to weed out ‘bad’ beef. Nor do they trust the Korean system and the crooked distributors who mislabel products to reap profit. I suppose it’s also a sense of frustration that no one can be trusted, “so let’s just keep the beef out altogether”.
Korea should ban 갈비탕, 곱창, 꼬리곰탕, 사골국 and 설렁탕, 육회 first. Permanently.
If they don’t do this, the protestors are hypocrites. They say they don’t want their parents and children die horribly, so I’m suggesting a much better solution.
I’ll be a 5-year-old kid with B&W thinking on this beef issue, just like the protestors do. I must fight fire with fire. They don’t even deserve a fair analysis.
Kind of obvious don’t you think? Korea elects a President who does not openly kiss the butt of North Korea / China.
He is trying to repair the relationship that defends democracy, and freedom in South Korea.
What does he get? Massive protests of anti-Americanism. You can say all you want about it. But the thrust of the issue is Anti-Western, and Anti-Americanism.
Yea, protest against something stupid like beef and piss on the only strong ally. Get the US out of South Korea, so that the North with China can “liberate” you. See what happens then.
South Koreans don’t seem to care about other more pressing & more important issues. Wonder why?
wanted to comment on what your aunt said “she doesn’t trust American
Beef” I understand her concerns that California incident was in Chino they did a recall and the plant was shut down for good. You can research it more! Second how do they know that Korean beef is any safer lol! I know there is a risk with eating any beef but in the past 5 yrs there been so many cases of Vegetables diseases in the U.S. First Spinach, then tomatoes, cantaloupes, and tomatoes again (damn tomatoes) where E-Coli and Salmonella was found and there where deaths with the E-coli break. I could get sick quicker eating vegetables than eating beef and when is the last time you heard people in the U.S. getting sick eat beef beside getting an upset stomach or cancer ! There was an article stating that there was rise in “western illness” like colon cancer in Korea due to Koreans eating too much red meat (beef, pork) they need to cut back anyway!
The fact that they are ignoring the very lax safety precautions in the Korean food industry(beef is one of them) is extremely telling.
They go on with the “think of the children” argument while demanding that they be allowed to kids to roam around free in the car while driving- no car seat!
Basically,as pointed out in #24, when Koreans are killed, abused or taken advantage of by other Koreans, then it is just considered acceptable attrition. They may get a bit upset and pay it a little lip service, but generally just don’t do anything about it.
On the other hand, if Koreans are hurt by non-Koreans, even if the incidences and fears are completely false/unfounded, you get what we have now.
Yes, they are saying that the protests are about LMB, but it’s really about nationalism, xenophobia, anti-Americanism.
These idiots in the streets are going against LMB because he is pro-cooperation with the US. The beef lies started because Lee, knowing that US beef is perfectly safe and very economic, made the decision to open imports again “without consulting the people”. These are the “people” in the streets who are hopelessly ignorant, nationalistic xenophobes whose actions hurt Korea’s image and hurt Korea’s economic future by causing the possiblity of trade wars that they will lose.
They are so ignorant of these facts that they need someone like Lee to take the reigns and do what’s good them. They are so ignorant they have no idea that what they are doing is hurting Korea.
Now, there are plenty of people who don’t believe the mad cow hysteria, but most of them are remaining very quiet.
The screaming idiots in the streets are the ones who are representing Korea in the international media and it’s not a pretty picture!
I have observed that there is a lack of trust in government on the part of Koreans (is the tap water safe to drink?, etc.) and the tokebi called “mad cow disease” was the lever to release the anxieties of many. Many protesters also mention LMB’s canal project and his push towards what is seen by some to make Korea more capitalistic.
During all this, there is now a more focused attack upon the conservative big three papers, Chosun, JoonAng and Dong Ilbo: as from Kim Hye-jin’s thread on this topic
So many commenters in this blog do not see the bigger picture, that the “mad cow” is a “Trojan horse” for politics and the left has become much more media savvy while Han-nara is fumbling about trying to figure out what to do next politically and media-wise.
I think Han-nara is dangerously out of touch with the country, especially in terms of trust, which considering their gross failure so far to reform themselves politically, one should not be surprised wake one day and find that after the *next* real catastrophe that hits will be the one that buries them. If a hypothetical housing price bust were to occur, for example, that would probably put the average person into the streets, groaning from the onset of mad-homeowner-disease.
It’s about respect - Koreans feel they deserve the same 30 month standards as the Japanese, even if those standards make no sense and lack a scientific basis.
It’s similar to how they feel about the SOFA agreement, as well - which is more favorable to Japan than to Korea.
Now, if we really wanted to disrespect the Korean beef industry further - maybe we should call Hanwoo something like Sanwoo instead - mountain beef, since that’s where most Korean cows graze!
#29 “there are plenty of people who don’t believe the mad cow hysteria, but most of them are remaining very quiet.”
You are correct that they’ll remain quiet publicly, but that doesn’t mean they won’t argue with you on behalf of their Korean brethren.
#30 I’m not wishing ill on others but some mad-homeowner-disease wouldn’t be bad since I’m immune.
Elgin, here’s another article by one of my favorite columnist commentator, Kim Dae Jung (not the former president).
http://news.chosun.com/site/da.....00192.html
The protesters are attacking the freedom of speech of Chosun, Dongah, and Joongang Ilbos. They are attacking these three papers because they do not report what these idiots (who by the way are acting like those Chinese torch protesters in Seoul) that don’t want to hear any other opinions other theirs.
This is not Democracy, as it is often sentimentally reported by TV media like the MBC and some prints like the Korea Times who likes to claim these protests as a “budding democracy with a festive mood”.
I really think Koreans need a cold water splashed on their faces once and for all, coming from the United States - like a warning of a massive trade tariff against Korean products of some kind . What enrages Koreans more and encourages them to even protest harder, is being ignored.
Even a negative reaction against Korea from United States is better than no reaction at all.
I really don’t mean this to be an anti Korean post or a gyopo wanting attention post, as some have accused me of. I, for one, am sick of seeing candle light protests at a drop of a hat, and see that Korea is heading toward ruin if they keep this up. Something must happen to wake up them up from this trance before they fall off the cliff.
Although I don’t agree with the muzzling of the press, the Chojoongdong aren’t exactly the most objective newspapers in Korea.
That’s why Koreans say to read both the Chojoongdong and the Hanki in order to get opposing viewpoints and understand the issue better.
There’s also a saying here that the Chojoongdong is “filled with employees and not reporters.” Read : the reporters write what their bosses tell them to write not what they report.
There is no basis in fact with these US beef protests. Americans, by and large, are eating the hell out of their own beef, 30+ months old included. There are no cases of variant CJD attributable to eating US beef at all. The noise is all about playing the victim card - being “forced” to eat US beef. No one will force anyone to buy it, if it does get allowed in again, so let the market determine whether Koreans eat US beef. If they won’t buy it, importers won’t want to lose money importing it. If Korean businesses are feared to buy US beef and misrepresent it as being Korean beef, then the Korean legal system needs to get up to speed on hammering such illegal acts.
In the end, it’s all about victimhood, face, and uri nara.
Soon, this will all be moot, since Obama will be in the WH, the FTA will be dead and buried as the screw job for the US that it is, and the USFK will see radical reductions under the Democratic administration. There is no reason for the US to remain in SK. Just let the peninsula revert to Chinese vassaldom and forget about it.
Uhh I knew this was mass hysteria the moment I heard a 6 year old kid on the KTX telling his mother he didn’t want to eat U.S. beef and get mad cow disease.
Interesting how some people attribute these protests to Koreans’ lack of “critical thinking.” True, the Korean education system does not exactly put top priority on creativity and individuality (the many reasons for which is beyond the scope of this comment), but what I’m wondering is whether any of these commentators and bloggers have done some “critical thinking” themselves over the real issues — other than misguided paranoia and plain hysteria toward U.S. beef (which no doubt do play a role, but are only part of the story) — before taking on this condescending attitude.
Ironically, a recent OECD study showed that Korean students rank highest among OECD countries in this so-called “critical thinking.”
How about some “critical thinking” by our oh-so-extremely-capable-of-critical-thinking expats on how this discrepancy came about?
jojoongdong is quite famous. KBS 9pm news, and jojoongdong used to compliment each other very well with
the Chung Wa Dae.
My grandfather used to read each of them, every morning, and
Smile every morning.
Watching the 9pm news, it was reinforcing what he exactly wanted to hear.
At some point, the “other side” took the Blue House.
Now, certain regions and groups in Korea say the KBS, MBC news are liers.
cm, your scope of things is unsurprisingly limited. That’s why I think Mins was taking shots at you.
Didn’t you call for a return to military rule as well? For a trade dispute?
Cal, if the meat is cheap, the Koreans fear they’ll eat it anyway. Korean merchants don’t care about the labels.
Gatja Hanwoo has existed, exists now, and will exist.
I want to you to re-read
wjk 1:14
Just kidding.
It’s never a you don’t like it, don’t buy it situation with
Food in Korea.
Stupid waegookins.
Why all this long-winded, convoluted analysis of the pros and cons of importing U.S. beef? As if this is a matter of logic or reason. It has absolutely nothing to do with cow meat, for Pete’s sake. Koreans, the world’s most Confucian and ethnocentric people, have a unique mindset, as unpleasant or politically incorrect this may be to assert. In North Korea we can see the Korean mindset in all of its glory. Koreans have tremendous pent-up frustrations, for historical and cultural reasons: they are a triune colony: culturally by the Chinese, economically by the Japanese, and militarily, by the U.S. The U.S. is the easiest target for Koreans to take out their frustrations. This is well-known to every Korean, so their irrational behavior (from a westerner’s viewpoint) is, in one sense at least, completely rational. Nevertheless, they are ticking time-bombs. Things are going to get very dicey in South Korea.
not too long ago,
Kalbitang in Seoul,
was said to be made of Chinese made canned meat of questionable origin.
Not cow. In some cases,
Made of Y A K.
Did you have ANY control over that?
No. You thought you were eating Kalbitang. Stop saying stupid things.
Like my gradeschool teacher used to tell me,
“This is NOT America.”
This is definetly the best analysis on the issue I have seen thus far.
It’s good to have some levelheaded balance to the tHe knee-jerk anti-Korean reaction from some posters on this site. I think too many posters from ESLcafe.com have invaded this site. Even Klingner dropped the ball in his analysis. So many “expats” are quick to play the wounded minority. This is a domestic political issue and has nothing to do with anti-Americanism/racism/nationalism. American beef and BSE are no longer the central issue. People are angry with their president, not the U.S. Rabid anti-Koreanism amoung the expat set has become so trendy, it takes on moral panic proportions. The recent knee-jerk woe-is-me outburst against the candle light vigils on here and other sites is case in point.
‘He is trying to repair the relationship that defends democracy, and freedom in South Korea.’
lol!
Why is it that your gradeschool teacher couldn’t teach you how to write a fucking paragraph?
It has squat to do with BSE and all to do with protectionist economic policies. It really is that simple.
“But for the ordinary Korean on the street, well the answer will be different. If one were to ask a Korean about their preference, first they will hem and haw, but if you prod them further some if not most will admit that US beef is tastier, has better texture, and cheaper to boot.”
Mins, this opening premise of your argument is a bed of wet sand upon which the whole argument is rather shoddily built. You cannot assert the ‘true feelings’ of a nation without some kind of polling, sampling or interviewing. As such I feel this entire post is somewhat worthless.
‘It’s nice to see so many Koreans concerned about each others welfare and their children’s welfare.
HOWEVER
Koreans are literally slaughtering children on the roads.
NO PROTESTS
Children are being poisoned by heavy metals and all the pollutants
NO PROTESTS
Children are being beaten and abused
NO PROTESTS
All these other issues ACTUALLY cause death, and health problems amongst the young.
So what is it that attracts protestors and gets them all worked up. Beef!’
do you guys ever keep in mind that korea can call itself wealthy for about 7 to 8 years now? how can so many of you expect korea to be on par with america when the us has had so much more time to become a mature society?
to me, it’s a lack of perspective. you just don’t know how poor koreans were until very recently though many of you were probably not even born for most of that time. you’re too impatient. that’s why all you get is frustration. i remember a korea where yontan and mogyoktang where just everywhere. to me, korea is doing just fine.
relax, people.
“You cannot assert the ‘true feelings’ of a nation without some kind of polling, sampling or interviewing. As such I feel this entire post is somewhat worthless.”
… You have no idea how ironic those two sentences are.
You are right. But explain it to me anyhow. Or do you think he can divine such ideas from merely being Korean? That appears to be the basis for his authority and something those who think it is a good post agree with.
The ‘focus’ of these protests keeps changing! or does it?
from US beef will kill Koreans!
to
Lee Myung Bak is a bad president!
to now with
Koreans have pent up frustration with past slights and the feeling that the US, Japan, & China just take advantage of them and don’t give Korea any respect!
Well, which one is it? Or is it all of them?
Bottom line is that the candle light mafia*, like a large chunk of the population, think and act like completely ignorant and irrational children when the ‘don’t get their way’.
They go on and on about how other countries, namely the previously said 3, don’t give them any respect.
The hit the streets and demand respect.
They are so childish and irrational that they don’t understand that respected is something that needs to be earned.
The way they behave, they don’t deserve any.
*it’s time to stop calling these “candle light vigils” when groups are instigating violence and vandalism on the police and public property. These are violent riots. The “peaceful protests” seem to be occuring on the fringe.
I’ll give you an example:
When France criticized the US over the second war in Iraq, the congressional cafeteria retaliated by renaming french fries and french toast “freedom fries” and “freedom toast”.
It was completely stupid and childish.
As an American, I was embarrassed because it just made us look stupid and silly.
Any rational, mature person should be concerned over movements and causes that just make their country look foolish, ignorant and childish!
This whole row is not doing anything to help Korea achieve any kind of respect
#31 dokdofoever
“It’s about respect - Koreans feel they deserve the same 30 month standard as the Japanese. It’s similar to how they feel about the SOFA agreement, as well
- which is more favorable to Japan than Korea.”
The Japanese people do not think either Japanese or American beef is safe. Thefore, every head of Japanese cow is inspected for BSE before shipment. Japan applies 20 month standard to the US beef. This is a compromise reached
between Japan and the US because the US refused the 100% inspection and BSE has not been found among cows younger than 21 months. BSE has not been completely understood scientifically. The argument all boils down to probability.
#49 just a small correction…
“the 100% inspection” is useless for cows under 20-24 month of age because it is almost impossible to detect if it is infected or not using current testing method. So “the 100% inspection for cows over 20-24 month old cows” would be appropriate here.
#48
I totally agree with you. When I first the news of candle light protest, It was embarassing as they didn’t have much of ratinoal bottomline to support their action. Now, the rational behind the protest have been changing to protest against LMB’s other policies, his non-reaction to the protest, etc.
All of these reminds me of MR. Bush’s second invasion of Iraq in a way that how the war was about the WMD at first and then WMD is not an issue but restoring democracy in Iraq, etc etc.
Now, protesters in Korea didn’t kill anyone at least……………yet.
As much candle light protest is sickening, some of the commenters here are as sickening as the candle light protesters. If you want to criticize or blame someone, don’t behave like the one you are blaming.
Pawi in #44. That was rational and thoughtful. Well done! I do believe, however, that Korea achieved a bit of it’s economic punch and standard of living before the Asian crisis of the 90’s. A moot point. It is still gaining what is never easy, a true understanding of democracy.
“Human dignity must be given by people to people. If you stand before me, and I do not credit you with dignity, then you have none… It has been found that we can hold that same good opinion of strangers, if those who teach us and otherwise lead us tell us to.” Kurt Vonnegut
Someone said it earlier about respect. Korea demanding it before earning it. I think the word earn is an oversimplification. Listening, sharing, being patient and taking in the FACTS from both sides. An honest education from unbiased teachers and leaders.
A group that did just the opposite of that was the Nazi’s, but I think it says more about their dignity than that of those they slaughtered and oppressed.
Like you said, Pawi, it’s going to take some maturing. Hell, the US obviously had a huge headstart and is still going through obvious growing pains. It will be interesting to see how much it gets mucked up in the meantime.
Thank you aaronm for your perspective.
But do you have anything worthwhile to add besides calling my views worthless(you’ve been doing that for quite a while, BTW) and your anti-Korean views? Like maybe an intelligent and logical take on the protests perhaps?
I suppose not.
Also thank you natto and toru for the Japanese perspective. I’ve been curious on the Japanese view considering that it has some influence on how Koreans view US beef in terms of BSE and inspections.
Well written and to the point BFK. I was getting tired of reading the comments from the usual crowd.
i predict these protests will die out soon enough, as usual. people need to vent a bit at LMB, students need an excuse to protest and the whole beef issue will be resolved with a bit of trade tweak.
obama is all about protectionism and getting the blue-collar votes right now. however, in many elections presidents change their policy 18 months into the term. the reality is that protectionism hasn’t been shown to work, growth necessitates global markets, job losses are due to becoming more and more efficient rather than outsourcing, yadda, yadda, yadda. the sum of these data points is that one of the worst directions to go would be a protectionist route. obama knows this. he could potentially be a tough negotiator willing to walk away from sour deals which would be refreshing. we could also move towards troop reductions which would be very interesting. both of them together would say a lot about our evolving relationship.
Mins,
I merely point out that you have no proof or evidence of the phenomenon you are citing and you link it to my supposed anti-Korean sentiments. It’s an elementary point that in any argument you are supposed provide something to back up what you are saying, but the best you can do when I point this out is to go down the old path of calling me a hater. Seriously, I thought you were better than that, but just humor me and tell me how exactly you are able to determine the mood on Korea street?
oh, great judy,
Since Obama is “not telling the truth”,
Let’s assume “he’s telling a lie”, and vote for him, trusting that “he’ll fulfill that lie.”
What a load of crap.
i have never heard of voting for someone, assuming they’re not telling the truth, and guessing what they’re really gonna do, and expect them to fulfill that “guess”.
LOL, aaronm, now you think I was “better than that”. Why do I smell a hint of patronizing?
OK yeah sure I’ll humor you. A Korean living in Korea and interacting with Koreans will obviously hear a lot of things from Koreans who have opinions regarding the beef issue whether they are participating in the protests or staying out of it altogether. And from that well…..
Now I am not claiming to draw a correct conclusion, just saying that there is lot more than what meets the eye and that a lot of protestors are there because they are genuinely concerned and not because they want to beat up a conscript who has the bad luck of wearing the KNP uniform. Although there are some who are probably there just to do that.
I also don’t know how your experience in Korea have been, but obviously it hasn’t been all that positive. Just because your experiences haven’t been positive don’t dismiss Koreans as a bunch of no good loonies. And just because I’m writing what you don’t like to hear don’t dismiss that as worthless either.
You know a part of me wonders if you would be asking for proof had I said that the protestors were indeed rabid anti-Americans intent on using mob violence to meet their ends.
Are the protests gonna stop when the weather gets hotter?
Well Granfalloon, as soon as LMB announces a face saving way out of this mess(and it seems that he’s working on it), I predict that things will start cooling down and people will stop going to the candlelight gatherings.
I was a little surprised by the Korean American housewife who has spoken in the Korean media saying that “Americans” don’t trust US beef. Sure, there are people who don’t eat meat at all for moral or environmental reasons. And there was an E-coli scare with some processed meat products last month. But blanket distrust? So, I took a little a survey of 15 American mothers on my e-mail list. (It is obviously not a representative sample, since I am related to 6 of the respondents.) No one had a consistent problem with American beef. Everyone still purchased it.
America is a big place, with a lot of varied opinions. It is very difficult to gage the opinion of the “American public.” I can’t do it adequately, and neither can one Korean-American woman.
I see valid points on both sides of this issue, but it does bother me a little that misinformation is being spread about what “Americans” en masse think…
Perhaps this is going against the general mood, but why can’t the US test every head of cattle, just like Japan does? Surely they can pass the costs on to the consumer, and it would guarantee that the beef was BSE free.
As I understand it US beef is fairly safe and the chances of contracting the brain disease is very low. Hell, I was even in the US at the height of the BSE problem, and ate US beef.
Still, is there some reason why they cannot test them all? Japan’s example positively proves it is possible.
“So this isn’t about US beef, it isn’t about the great US beef conspiracy, it’s about Koreans wanting LMB to at least listen to their concerns and not bulldoze things down their throats. That’s why thousands of people are taking to the streets every night.”
Wrong.
Beef is the issue the left used to open up thier political agenda. Whip up the public with false journalism, and then get the public to carry through other ideas of their agenda. Last to their ears sort of thing.
I can’t give them credit for planning it this way. That would be too much, but it did work out this way.
You are right, it is more than beef, but it isn’t totally about LMB either. Lots of instant hatrid of the part of the public. Where does this come from?
“Now, certain regions and groups in Korea say the KBS, MBC news are liers.”
wjk, they are liars. They have been proven that they lied when they reported Koreans have a special gene that is predisposed to mad cow disease. That’s just one example.
They also lie that Lee Myung Bak is giving no response to the protesters - in the end, whipping up more public outrage.
Lee can’t and should not ask for renegotiations without seriously damaging Korea’s international reputation that would have a serious repercussion to Korean economy. That doesn’t mean Lee hasn’t responded to the public as MBC,KBS reporters claim. MBC, KBS should know better what renaging on contracts signed by heads of states would mean. They are being irresponsible for ignoring these facts.
As for Japan, they test every one of their cows for Mad Cow. So it doesn’t look odd when they ask the US to live up to their standards of inspection. Korea, on the other hand, fail OEI standards for mad cow prevention and inspections. This makes the protests look like anti american in nature, unlike in Japan’s case. MBC, KBS, and others, do not report this fact. The fact that Korean beef is unsafer than US beef.
#64 do you have any idea how incredibly costly that is in the us? i know some counties in texas that the # of cattle outnumber the people by a 50:1 margin.
it would quadruple the price of beef. if a reliable sample is done (approx 1200 for decent sized population) the reliability is around 99+%
Can the Korean media’s reputation — already quite poor in many circles, even at home — ever recover from this?
Recover?
How about try to attempt a level of decency and truth.
I don’t know a time when they had any integrity, so it’s not a question of “recover”.
It’s a question of at long last growing up.
Well, sensationalism and whipping up hysteria, no matter how unfounded, pays the bills better.
They’ve learned that lesson only too well and I don’t see it changing any time soon!
I just hate the way the reporters paint the street protests with a rose colored brush.
Moms and dads with their kids peacefully speaking up as a family, for the truth.. is the running theme. What’s fucked up is that these young babies and kids are too young to make up their own minds, yet they are used as tools by their parents to beef up grown up adult’s beliefs. Yet the press paint these family protests romantically. It’s not too far off from North Korean use of kids at political rallies. Disgusting and disturbing.
It’s also disturbing that no press from outside Korea is covering this in detail to condemn these practices. Many Koreans would be bothered by ridicule or criticisms coming from outside and would at least start examining if this is wrong or right.
At this point, this situation, according to my wife, who is an ardent protester and represents the grass roots mind set as much as anyone, is about much more than even 30 month old cows. Democracy in Korea is being challenged by those torchbearers of the CheonDuWan/ParkCheonHee era in the guise of the modern GNP. Its the Joonang ilbo, Donga ilbo, and the most hated Chosun ilbo, whom i’m reminded of almost daily now, exhorted Korean people to die for the emperor of Japan, versus ‘Oh my news’ and other internet news sources. Those on the left, are boycotting advertisers of the Chosun ilbo and incessantly emailing managing editors and other pro GNP mouthpieces. Talk of conspriracy includes the claim that the Blue House hired actors to instigate violence within protests that were peaceful (the guys smashing the police bus on TV). Why does the GNP, who during the Roh years argued that mad cow was a risk, now claim that American beef is generally safe. Why does the chief of police in Seoul lie to reporters about police brutality. If over 30 month old American beef is so safe, why does Japan impose 20 month old import restrictions. And so on.
My reply to my dear wife is that you’re all nuts. There isn’t an American in a househould, save those employed at the slaughter house that could say whether the cow they’re eating is 30, 40, or however many months old. Why? Mad Cow disease has never been a public health threat in the US. Even back in 96 or 97, when a couple of cows were found, domestic meat sales stayed the same.
If protests escalate and the blue house responds with more force, than indeed the democracy could become more unstable here.
“Still, is there some reason why they cannot test them all? Japan’s example positively proves it is possible.”
Japan is expecting a total slaughter of about 1.2 million head for 2008.
The US has about 100 million head of cattle of which the annual average slaughter is about 34 million head.
Different scales. In a relatively small (and localized) industry like Japan it is feasible whereas in an enormous and widespread industry like the US it is less so. This would probably not just be due to cost, but to also ensure the quality and consistency of testing procedures and results.
No idea if this is the case, just an opinion….
how can so many of you expect korea to be on par with america when the us has had so much more time to become a mature society?
5000 years isn’t enough?
Well, we shall now put the apologist stance to the test.
Bush just announced that no “30-month and older” cattle beef
will be sent to SK.
Let’s see if all this goes away.
Will all the fun protesting stop now?
Will the candles be doused?
Will everyone go back to school/work/home now?
Will it all just go away?
It’s good to (finally) read a post in the English blogosphere on Korea that tries to understand the protests. Reading some posts by American expats in Korea and talking to a few gave me the impression that American expats tend to too easily dismiss the protests as “unreasonable” and the Korean response to US beef as scientifically ungrounded and emotional.
You know what they say; the best critique is the critique that explores the object of critique from the inside out. You need to really know what’s going on to advance a considered opinion. Of course, who can really say at this point what the anti-US beef protests are and what they will amount to. Even so, I enjoyed reading your post.
lol. The irony comes from the fact that you, aaronm, who more than often displays the ‘uncanny ability’ to derive not only the sentiments of the Korean population, but also their psychological inner workings, are calling out mins on ‘divining’ the Korean sentiment.
in short, it’s the classic case of a shit-stained dog calling out a dwenjang-stained dog.
Who cares! Just tariff/block some korean goods like cellphones/cars and call it even.
Whether or not it’s a hatred for the US, or a real fear for Madcow, either way some koreans are emotional about this. Let’s move on.
Anti-American/foreign sentiment here is well documented and quantifiable. You know the sources. As for what else I’ve divined over the years I’ve posted here, you tell me.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Please watch the embedded video at the following site: http://news.chosun.com/site/da.....00690.html. Please be warned. It gets very disturbing at the end as these “peaceful” protestors trap some police officers and start beating them with metal pipes.
While the post was an interesting and understandable view on what some protesters may think, I agree that the general idea that Koreans would think US beef actually tastes better makes me think their next line would be that they’ve also been probed in their orifices by aliens; the idea that ones own nation’s meat is better than USA stuff is universal and Korea is no exception. It’s actually quite surprising how many people have a disdain for US meat, really, regardless of the truth.
Honestly, considering the other ‘watercooler chat’ posts too, I’m starting to believe that whenever you mention some experience with other Koreans, you’re simply making it up to push some point (can’t fathom why else). It’s disappointing though, because the post was a nice read without it.
This is a bit off topic, but has anyone seen this?
http://news.chosun.com/site/da.....00718.html
A former DJ aide claims that Kim Jong-il told DJ that even HE wants the U.S. troops to stay in Korea, because they are needed to balance against the regional powers. When DJ then asked for an explanation of the Dear Leader’s frequent calls in public for the withdrawal of the U.S. troops, he replied that such rhetorical grandstanding was for domestic propaganda effect.
Watch this video of thousands of peaceful protesters using metal pipes to attack couple of dozen police.
Anarchy in South Korea.
http://news.chosun.com/site/da.....00690.html
So why aren’t the police (who are military draftees in their early 20’s) doing anything? Because they are not allowed to protect themselves that’s why.
As soon as the riot cops start spraying water on the demonstrators, it will
turn into another police brutality and human rights violations on MBC, KBS, SBS TV news. This is unfair.
Oh yeah, good thing to teach your kids.
“Yes, they are saying that the protests are about LMB, but it’s really about nationalism, xenophobia, anti-Americanism.”
Benicio74 is right on here. Many of my Korean students here in Canada say they hate LMB for what they claim is kowtowing to the US and they complain that the US still ‘controls’ South Korea. The anti-American angle is fundamental to this issue.
“Anti-American/foreign sentiment here is well documented and quantifiable. You know the sources. As for what else I’ve divined over the years I’ve posted here, you tell me.”
I was tempted to search “Aaronm” and “rjkoelher” and give you the rundown of all the generalization of Koreans you have made over the years, but then I remembered I have, you know, shit to do.
I do apologize for singling you out though, aaronm. Almost everyone here has played psychologist with the general Korean population (or the general expat population) over and over again. But the case still stands that it’s a bit hypocritical of you to point out that mins can’t possibly know how the Korean population functions when seemingly everyone here seems to think they themselves can.
It’s anti-Americanism as anti-Americanism can be despite what people like Lee Jae Young and the Gyopos say.
I teach adults and hear (and have ALWAYS heard) “I hate America” on a regular basis. LBM just gave them an excuse as we already know.
I tell them I’m Canadian just to hear this kind of stuff. They generally don’t have the balls to say anti-American things to the face of an American unless they’re in a mob or drunk.
I’ve been hearing the “I hate America” crap since early 1999 when I first got here. With the exception of a few middle school students at times, I’ve taught adults the whole time since then.
Oh sure, there are some who aren’t anti-US, but after all these years, those people seem few and far between. Especially now.
As far as Gyopos go, do you really expect us HERE IN KOREA to believe that most Korean nationals aren’t anti-American?
Every time a Korean national says they hate Americans, do a little test. Ask them if this includes Korean-Americans. I’ve have never heard YES role out of their holes.
If most Koreans aren’t really anti-American, why do the Korean people and the government tolerate the teaching of anti-American propaganda (hate) in many of their public schools? The fact that this is tolerated, is more than enough proof that Koreans are anti-American.
I’d like to hear the bullshit excuses and answers to that simple question.
Replace the word “balls” with “tactlessness” and I’d agree with that statement.
I’ve discussed this with a few people over the weekend. It’s not about the meat, so y’all who claim American beef is tastier or that Korean Americans like T-bone steaks need to throw that broken record out the window.
It’s not about the parts Koreans and Korean food manufacturers use to make soup base or to make flavorings: the bones and the organs.
Organs and bones are believed to carry a concentration of prions and older cows are thought by some to be at a higher risk of being infected with BSE. Don’t you think that by allowing the organs and bones of older cows to be consumed, the Korean government is essentially opening the doors to a flood of such parts to be imported to be used in processed food in Korea?
US distributors claim that organs and bones of older or younger cows are not distributed in the US and that their beef is sold in separate parts instead of whole cows…and yet they say that it would be difficult to import these parts in Korea at the moment (in other words, in time they will do it).
http://joongangdaily.joins.com.....id=2890379
Another reasons that people are upset at the government is that by opening up the doors to a