Korean politicians, having had a day to think about it, are now getting pissed at US ambassador Sandy Vershbow.
The funny part is that it’s based on a misinterpretation.
UDP chairman Sohn Hak-kyu said at a party executive meeting today, “For Ambassador Vershbow to say ‘Koreans should learn a little more about science’ is an insult to all Korean citizens… Because the Lee Myung-bak administration took a humilating posture towards the United States, an arrogant and impudent statement was made.” He then called the ambassador “very rude” for an earlier phone call in which he told Sohn that he was disappointed and that the UDP head’s statement were causing public insecurity.
And to show we live in an irony-free world, here’s the actual statement by Vershbow, in the original English:
So we hope that Koreans will begin to learn more about the science and about the facts of American beef and that this issue can be addressed constructively. We believe there is a lot of work ahead in getting people to pay more attention to the science and the facts of the matter. (emphasis mine)
And here’s Sohn Hak-kyu’s statement, in Korean (or at least as quoted by the Segye Ilbo):
통합민주당 손학규 대표는 4일 최고위원회의에서 “버시바우 대사가 ‘한국 국민이 과학을 좀 더 배웠으면 좋겠다’고 한 것은 국민 전체에 대한 모욕”이라며 “이명박 정부가 미국에 굴욕적인 자세를 보였기 때문에 오만방자한 발언이 나왔다”고 비판했다.
I’m sure you see the problem. I know one respected commenter has told me to lay off Sandy for the phone call thing, but this time, I really hope he does call up Sohn to bitch.
The Democratic Labor Party wankers, of course, held a press conference in front of the US embassy (not the only group to do so today, apparently) to demand an official apology. Continuing their train of thought from yesterday, they said one might be mistaken in thinking it was the US military government period of 1945-1947.
Hopefully, the ambassador was flipping them the bird from the embassy window.
Oh, and head of the formerly GNP pro-Park Geun-hye party Suh Chung-won — yes, that Suh Chung-won — said Vershbow’s comments, which “seemingly insulted the people,” were inappropriate for an ambassador. Frankly, I think this is just a cultural difference — while Americans might see getting sprung from jail by your lawmaker buddies while being investigated for corruption and (allegedly) taking bribes to put a 31-year-old in the National Assembly as “inappropriate,” Koreans might see an ambassador unashamedly stating his government’s position as “inappropriate.”
Even the GNP got into the mix, with the party’s coordination committee chairman going on MBC radio and saying that Vershbow’s statement — that he didn’t feel the need to renegotiate the beef deal — was inappropriate for an ambassador.
As you can probably guess, there are many such stories. The NoCut News story also quotes UDP central committee member Kim Min-seok as saying, “What, are Korean citizens a savage people who don’t know science?”
Interestingly, NoCut News also said that diplomats point out that Vershbow’s commentary, coming immediately after meeting with the foreign minister of the host nation, violated diplomatic practice (as opposed to, say, concluding an agreement with another country and then demanding its renegotiation when your voters get pissed). Others, however, say Korea’s mistaken negotiations brought it on, with one diplomatic official saying that Vershbow’s comments, while clearly against diplomatic practice, were in large part brought on by the Korean government itself.
Even the Hankyoreh Shinmun’s editorial tonight mentioned the “science” comment. That said, the editorial, while calling for the United States to accept the Korea’s demand for a renegotiation of the beef deal (citing the realities on the ground) and warning the United States of a “greatly changed attitude toward the United States and US products” (i.e., the “anti-Americanism” card) if it didn’t, was creepily sympathetic to the American position, conceding that yes, the Korean government DID agree to restart beef imports, and yes, the Americans must consider the interests of its beef producers, which have already begun preparing for exports to Korea, and the influence this mess might have on US negotiations with other countries. The mistaken party was not the United States, but the Korean government.
But hey, that doesn’t look like Ambassador Vershbow!
PS: What’s odd is that the UDP spokeswoman had no problem with the statement when it was made yesterday (other than to note how the apparent rejection of the government’s demand for a renegotiation displayed 2MB’s impotence), but today, the UDP is behaving like Vershbow had insulted Sohn Hak-kyu’s mother. And while I’ve never heard Sohn speak English, he did go to Oxford, so I can’t believe he misunderstood the ambassador (assuming he saw the original statement, which he might not of). Anyone, one wonders if this means a political decision was made to steer the protests in another direction while the metal is still hot.
88 Comments
I’ve seen Vershabow’s interview. He was not acting arrogant nor was he insulting. Contrarily, his tone was quite polite and asked the Koreans to base their opinions on science not emotion. The ones who are arrogant are the Korean politicians who are using this for their anti American propaganda.
Even Kim Dae Jung is getting his political licks in and calling the beef protest, a democracy movement. It’s just sickening.
http://news.joins.com/article/.....l?ctg=1000
This is proof that INDEED these Koreans need that English education that Lee Myung Bak has been pushing for so long. Maybe after that they will reach the level of translating simple sentences before making asses of themselves.
oops too late!
As a teacher of English here, I’ll be sure to add science to tomorrow’s lesson plan.
Not only do Koreans not know the science, they don’t know the English.
You spin (it) right round, baby
Right round like a record, baby
Right round, round, round
so many juicy lines in this one. I’ll just take one, the rest of yall can have the rest:
“What, are Korean citizens a savage people who don’t know science?”
this coming from a country where MD’s believe in fan death
I rest my case
Koreans may not know science, but they know how to fool Science:
http://www.sciencemag.org/sciext/hwang2005/
I like the new angrier Marmot. And a big thank you for bringing all of these articles to light the past couple weeks.
The blogs really write themselves with all this beef stuff. The Sparkle is making my head hurt. A lot.
Sohn is truly a disgusting opportunist maggot. How many times has he switched his political allegiances to further his career?
The irony isn’t merely that Sohn was the one who called and bitched at the Ambassador. But it’s also that Sohn is the one guy who ought to not have misinterpreted the Ambassador’s statements, given he was educated abroad and has even written an outstanding book on Korea’s democratization in English.
What a fucking piece of turd.
lol #8.
Gads, it’s just so easy.
And still they wonder why they aren’t “respected”.
They really don’t know themselves.
Its not that they don’t know science, they just cherry pick the evidence that supports preconceived opinions and ignore evidence supporting the contrary. Critical thinking 101 stuff. Fan Death, cloning, vehicle safety, law enforcement, beef, economics, political science, education, the list of examples goes on and on.
The Korean economic development of the last 50 years is way out of synch with the country’s cultural development. Unfortunately, it will probably take a couple more generations to cure this.
This is so frustraiting. Well at least now nobody can say the opposition is not intentionally trying to create anti-americanism to fullfil their agenda. It could have been a total lie and people would still jump on the bandwagon. That shows the lowest side of people here.
Mr. Choe — Don’t feel like you have to sugarcoat your words on this blog. Tell us what you really think about Sohn Hak-kyu.
And just when the you thought the uri dang couldnt have a bigger prick as its leader, Sohn spouts up. I guess he is trying to give Chung a run for his money. Didnt Sohn recently lose badly when he ran for election? Sore loser, opportunistic dipshit, or intellectual giant, you be the judge.
I’m surprised they didn’t just cut off the quote at “Koreans should learn more”, and then rage about that.
I apologize, Robert. I’ve tried to be more disciplined on public fora, but Sohn is beginning to replace DJ as the Korean politician I despise most. And to think at one time, like Lee Hoi-chang, he had one of the most sterling reputations for integrity among Korean politicians.
I have heck of a lot more to say about Sohn, but I will exercise some rhetorical circumspection, because he’s a family friend (and I don’t want to put my uncles in an awkward position).
‘The Korean economic development of the last 50 years is way out of synch with the country’s cultural development. Unfortunately, it will probably take a couple more generations to cure this.’
yeah, that’s true. kind of like 1950s america where america was the most advanced nation on earth and yet a black man couldn’t sit at the same table with a white one.
i think you need to get off that high horse, lil expat. the koreans are doing just fine. and besides, the koreans can give you some practice for that real beast called china. we really ain’t seen nothing yet as far as asian nationalism is concerned. of course, sharon stone done tasted that.
you can’t teach people the lessons your people have already learned. that’s too bad but that’s human nature. when you look beyond the surface, it’s interesting to note that you aren’t so far from the curb, expat. no matter how much you think are.
Robert,
As an aside, Sohn is certainly fluent in English. His book on Korea’s democratization is one of the two best books I’ve read on Korean politics by a native Korean (the other being by the former Foreign Minister Han Sung-joo).
And unlike DJ, I am certain Sohn doesn’t employ English ghost-writers.
Don’t apologize — “fucking piece of turd” IS being disciplined when it comes to describing Sohn. Sad thing is I used to like him.
“besides, the koreans can give you some practice for that real beast called china. we really ain’t seen nothing yet as far as asian nationalism is concerned. of course, sharon stone done tasted that.”
First time Pawikirogi said something trenchant that I agree with!
Gotta wonder if pawi is being a pawn of China or just spewing more misogynisms toward aging Hollywood actresses…
Pawi might be a fake, a faux gypo or perhaps a former disgruntled language instructor who gets his kicks from trying to agitate or provoke others. I have known a lot of gypos and none I have known are as bitter or as stupid as he projects himself. Would have to say he is not Korean.
i say…..bring it on. bring on the anti-americanism and let it be seen on all 3 major news channels in the states.
i think america is ready for some nationalism as well.
i just hope i don’t get jumped at florence and normandie. that wouldn’t be cool.
Agreed. Pawi would have to be Chinese dude. at best; but it’s more probably he’s just a lonely white guy in desparate need of attention.
Vershbow just added a little gasoline into the fire. Obviously, he did so inadvertantly.
These anti-american crazies are looking for any and all excuses to keep this protest thing going and going. People have to be careful not to keep giving them ammunition.
The China cave-in was by Dior, needless to say, a French entity. But as far as it goes, I guess pawi is correct that a former tributary state could offer cebturies of expertise on putting on the kneepads before the Middle Kingdom if such were needed.
Is the opposition using Koreans’ inability to understand English articles like “the” to twist the ambassador’s language? He said “the science of US beef,” not “science” in general. Looks like opposition is being as sleazy as the sleaziest US Republicans…
This is all so predictable.
It’s pretty much routine.
We just haven’t seen it in a few years with Roh in the Blue House.
The one I liked the most is back in 1998 when the IMF head came and had a photo-op with newly elected President Kim Dae-Jung.
Koreans of all stripe got pissed off at —— how he was sitting on the couch.
The bastard dared to cross his legs and place his fanny back on the cushion while forcing Pres. Kim to sit ram-rod straight on the edge of his chair.
What arrogant Americanism —- from an IMF head who I believe was Australian…..but certainly not American…
You sure Sohn went to Oxford? Not Oxford Pacific, East Oxford, or some other Oxfordesque diploma mill?
Speaking of which, I sure miss the diploma scandal and its agreeable ethics.
And let’s not forget how offended the Korean expert English speakers were at President Bush’s referral to Roh as “this man”.
Y’all just sit and wait for a few more weeks,until Tokyo puts Takeshima on a highschool geography textbook with a quote saying “disputed territory with Republic of Korea”.
I’d say all the barking dogs would come right after our tail and forget everything about American beef……
Max,
Sohn was a top-flite political scientist. He was the genuine deal–which makes his political theatrics even more inexcusable.
Since you seem to have some personal knowledge of the man, can you explain his supposed about-face? Did he himself eat beef during one of his U.S. visits and is now suffering the consequences?
“Mr. Choe — Don’t feel like you have to sugarcoat your words on this blog. Tell us what you really think about Sohn Hak-kyu.”
The sad fact is that he’s not the only maggot around looking to exploit this to refurbish their sagging political careers. They would not dare to talk about the US ambassador like this (unprofessional insults) if he was a Chinese diplomat.
Dogbert,
I don’t think personal knowledge is necessary to explain Sohn’s behavior; it’s motivated by a transparent political opportunism–which Sohn has demonstrated numerous times in his career.
CM,
Yes, even Lee Hoi-chang seems to be on it too, and possibly Park Geun-hye through surrogates.
But then I suppose we should never be surprised at any ideological somersaults in Korean politics after DJ going to bed with JP.
#29, great memory. I’d forgotten that one.
My fav stupid tiff was when Meg Ryan mentioned her ‘Sexy Mild’ commercial on the Letterman Show. She found the experience silly.
She didn’t mention Korea. Or Koreans. Or even kimchi. Nothing said that indentified the nation with the sexy and mild shampoo.
“That’s Korea you’re insulting! Yoohoo, over here…look at us…the vexed Koreans!” scowled the nation’s Watchdog of Perceived Slights and Insults.
Soon after foreigners were banned from appearing in TV ads.
Seouldout,
Is that the photo of the 1988 Olympic boxing protest? I actually think the Korean disaffection over that loss was legitimate, as Hristov did not deserve to win in my eyes. It also puts the Roy Jones’ robbery in context–as the Jones’ travesty was a sort of a restitution for not only the Hristov decision, but several decisions in 84 where the Korean fighters arguably ought to have prevailed v. American fighters (e.g. Kim Dong-Kil). In fact, the Koreans came away with the Shin decision over Virgil Hill in 84 likely only because Korean boxing officials were fuming and explicitly vowed vengeance in 88.
Hannara Party is kind of weird as a conservative party.
Usually, conservative parties are nationalistic.
In Korea, it is the liberal party that is Uri-Minjok.
Hannara party is more about SaDae.
Find a big foreign brother to lean on.
Thus, the “we can’t live without you” pro US rally, some years back. A strange sight for some foreigners.
I picked this up, not with my own head.
I was talking to a Korean person today.
Makes sense to me.
by the way, I’m counting Sohn switching parties once.
Lee Hoi Chang, once. Lee Hwae Chang was never clean. I knew of a family that was lining up to gain, if and when he defeated Kim Dae Jung. Then, it got postponed to defeating Roh Moo Hyun.
Lee In Jae, countable within 10 fingers. Lee In Jae is a good man in my book.
I support George W. Bush and Lee Myung Bak.
Obama is bad for Korea, bad for America.
Rightist, leftist, or Communist, all Korean political movements are nationalistic/ethnocentric. Korean Socialists are not out singing the Internationale. Scholarly papers have been written on this. I’m surprised that you, a Korean, are just now figuring this out.
Yep, that’s Byun Jong Il’s 67 minutes of infamy.
Whether the Koreans’ dissatifaction is legit or not, the world witnessed
the antics of 3-year oldtypical Korea. Headbutts during the fight, attack the ref when the scorecard was read, and then the sit-down protest.And this wasn’t the first sit-down protest by a Korean boxer at an Olympics. Byun bettered Cho Dong-Ki by 16 minutes.
Seouldout,
I am not denying that it was immature. I am merely emphasizing that some Korean protests are inspired by legitimate grievances!
The Meg Ryan event was interesting. Her face was everywhere in Korea in restaurants and bars and such - then less than over night - she is one of the most despised humans on earth…
I’d sue him for defamation if I was the ambassador. The guy studied at Oxford? It seems like a open and shut case to me.
Of course that’s not true.
The correct term is primitive, not savage.
You don’t necesarily have to speak perfect English to attend colleges abroad, no matter how prestigious the institute. Some (even young) Koreans live nearly a decade in LA without ever bothering to learn English or leave their comfortable drama watching niche.
Although, if you command even an intermediate level of English, you will realize that the amabassdor is referring to “Science about the American beef” and not a general standard of scientific knowledge among Koreans. Of course understanding his comment in proper context would harm anti American agendas.
I’m actually glad the ambassdor was blunt. The language is still diplomatic, but apparently he felt this issue dind’t require any, um, tea time. The science behind the MDC is not on the Koreans’ side. But if some Korean newspaper reports “Respected scietist Shin Kyung JiL develops seraphic tiger, even before the Americans” how many Koreans will believe it?
‘I guess pawi is correct that a former tributary state could offer cebturies of expertise on putting on the kneepads before the Middle Kingdom if such were needed.’
i suggest the west start trying on those knee pads right now. ask sharon for details.
‘how many Koreans will believe it?’
not this korean. hwang done did that.
“CM,
Yes, even Lee Hoi-chang seems to be on it too, and possibly Park Geun-hye through surrogates. ”
It’s not surprising really. It would be a political suicide at this time when 80% of Koreans are against US beef imports. None in the political circle would want to risk the wrath of the Korean public.
But just once, it would look great if the politicians who we expect higher standards from, would stick up and speak for the truth, instead of pandering to the public to save their behinds. But not. It looks like the rot is so deep that this simple naive expectation is too much to ask.
OK, again, let’s be fair here. Korea is by no means the only country where strong movements proceed ignorant of scientific fact. Actually, I think America takes the cake for this among developed nations.
What bothers me about Sohn’s reaction, though, is that it fits so perfectly into the persecution complex that hangs all over so much of Korea’s ire. As if everything every country ever did was designed to screw the Koreans. Just for once, could Koreans please consider the possibility that maybe Vershbow WASN’T trying to slander the entire Hangook race?
The United States has many Allies. Do these other Allies cause as much grief as Korea does?
Just wondering if anyone knows.
Lee,
Would you drop it? The dude didn’t spend a year or two abroad sight-seeing. He spent something like 8 years in England getting his doctorate in political science. Moreover, as I said, he’s published an outstanding monograph in a prestigious English academic publication.
Just trust me on this.
CM,
Well, I feel obligated point out that South Korea did once have a leader who never put his finger up to see which way the wind of public opinion was blowing but actually tried to shape–and when that failed–smash it.
Look at how Park Chung-hee responded to the absolutely massive protests against 1) the Normalization Treaty with Japan; and 2) the decision to deploy in Vietnam.
Of course, he was demonized for all that in the American press, and sometimes by American Presidents (e.g. Carter). Indeed, one can make an argument that Carter’s relentless rhetorical salvos against Park emboldened Kim Jae-kyu to assassinate him.
Now that you’ve finally had a “genuine democrat,” South Korea’s Mandela (TNR’s description), a “near-saint” (the Post Columnist Jim Hoagland’s designation) as a President who single-handed turned the country in a radically anti-American direction, how do you like Park now?
“Single-handedly,” not “single-handed.”
One more thing:
Now that I’ve read some local papers in Korean, I am persuaded that the “mistranslation” was a minor factor in the South Korean indignation. Some local papers had the right translation–or at least the right context–and the reporters were still indignant, seeing the good Ambassadors’ words as the epitome of anti-Korean, diss the Han, yatbwa woorinara rhetoric.
#56,
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t? Same as usual, I see.
…Korean politicians should stick to throwing shoes at each other.
What is world star Rain’s take on this whole beef issue? Surely a man of his world stature should be able to shed some light on this situation.
#52 - One thing I’ve always been curious of is if any of the Allied powers from World War II ever asked for reparations from the US. The Roh government seemed intent on doing just that for the Korean War, and I’m wondering if there’s a historical precedence for demanding reparations from allies. I am truly curious about this, and I’d appreciate anything that anybody knows about it. Maybe it’s not uncommon.
Anyway, with the 2MB administration, I doubt we’ll be hearing much about this issue for awhile. Sorry for being off-topic.
“As you can probably guess, there are many such stories. The NoCut News story also quotes UDP central committee member Kim Min-seok as saying, “What, are Korean citizens a savage people who don’t know science?”
No, of course not.”
Holy shit Robert I just spit my milk up. Too funny!
ah,
so, use force to smash up the masses when they’re dissenting with govt plans.
I reckon you won’t be popular in the streets of Korea.
No wonder your neighbors still worship Park Geun Hye.
I’m sorry, but that’s 3rd world stuff. Ie, China, Thailand, Russia.
아..한국인들..참 창피하다!
What’s ironic is that what Vershbow said was correct. He was too polite in fact. What this illustrates is that this was all about Anti Americanism and national pride which has been mentioned numerously by others.
Baduk! Help! Please come back and tell me that Koreans will start loving whitey again the day after 2MB gets into office!
This is the first time I’ve actually seen that particular Latin plural form used, and I hope it’s the last.
A Korean friend of mine confided in me — before the ambassador’s press statement — that it would be wise if he said nothing publicly because he would only be misquoted and comments would be taken out of context. It seems Cassandra is a mudang.
I wonder if Mr. Vershbow has a good counselor regarding how to read Korean political strategy after all because he only seems to feed the propaganda machine lately.
I too heard his comments to the press and he has been grossly misquoted and slandered by Sohn, et. al.
there’s a corollary to Baduk’s prophecy.
they need to see the jobs first. Part of the uprising has much to do with the prices they are paying for commodities.
You’re bitching about US gas prices? You’ll stop driving altogether, if you’re in Korea.
year 3 into the Presidency, Lee Myung Bak will hit over 50% in approvals.
the disgruntled US expat will grumble that
1/ KORUS FTA passed.
2/ there is visa waiver
3/ USFK is still present.
i still have no freaking clue how you say you love Korea while opposing the 3 above.
“1/ KORUS FTA passed.”
Not that the US will ever let that happen, Koreans would not let that happen. Korea’s government will lose international reputation to keep international contracts after this beef fiasco.
“2/ there is visa waiver”
Dream on. Say bye bye to that after this beef is stopped by the nutjobs with candles cheered on by Kim DJ. Koreans stay home, why travel to a country that you hate?
“3/ USFK is still present.”
Astonishing they’re still there, isn’t it?
How long do you think Koreans can get away with this without some kind of retaliation against Samsung, Hyundai, LG?
How long do you think Koreans can get away with selling to Americans but yet preventing them from selling in Korea?
Sonagi,
I apologize; I only had 2 years of ESL. Can you consummate the missing lesson for me?
CM,
Probably quite long, because frankly, the American electorate really do not care about Korea–or, more precisely, are ill-informed about it.
Won Joon Choe — You’re exactly right. The United States is a major element of Korea’s universe, but Korea does not figure in Americans’ estimation of the world’s important poles. Most Americans don’t know where this place is, and those who have heard of Korea generally have a romanticized “Alliance Forged in Blood” misapprehension.
I disagree. It’s not really the current state of mind of the American electorate at large that is relevant. Of more significance is the attitude of pertinent US elites able and willing to mobilize popular opinion when required. There is increasing evidence that elite US opinion is growing increasingly disenchanted (disgusted might not be too strong a word) with Korean antics - particularly the appallingly irresponsible behavior of Korean elites, represented, say, by the reprehensible Sohn Hak-kyu and the pusillanimous ROKGOV of LMB. They probably don’t need to activate US public opinion much to drive a stake into the heart of the FTA, or to implement other measures that will be damaging to Korea (little cost to the US), but I’m sure they will should the occasion arise.
Sperwer,
I’ve actually covered that issue in Joshua’s Blog. Basically, I agree with your general dynamic on what moves American foreign policy but I disagree with your application of that dynamic in this case. Namely, my understanding was that American foreign policy elite is still solidly behind a vigorous engagement with the Far East, rather than a disengagement from it. That is, I think someone like Doug Bandow represents a minority, rather than the majority.
Of course, I am willing to be proven wrong, esp. by people like Joshua who are in actual contact with the American foreign policy elite.
I have to disagree with 72, as long as the US public has no opinion about Korea, its simply the corporations and business interests that will control the agenda with Korea. American politicians like most politicians can be purchased. Substantial lobbying by foreign business interests or the Korean American community will have a greater affect on the relationship than any opinion expressed by the ordinary citizen. Korean people no matter how misguided can still influence public policy in Korea. The American public opinion rarely affects international relations or government policy.
If the USFK presence in Korea strengths the “alliance” (Korea buys US weapons and equipment and other US goods) then the US defense manufacturers will continue to push for USFK presence no matter what the US people think or the proposed rational behind it.
If the pretense of an alliance allows Korea to continue its unfair trade practices, you can bet Korean government and companies will do all it takes to continue the facade, regardless of what the facts are or what US citizens think.
No one speaks for the average working American.
let’s ask a question.
why do yo find the South Koreans so ungrateful?
they’re not the South Vietnamese. Despite corruption rivaling them, there is a free and democratic state in the ROK. We survived. They didn’t.
why do you find the South Koreans so ungrateful?
At least on the surface, they supported every major US armed conflict. W/ troops. NATO can’t say the same.
why do you find the South Koreans so ungrateful?
US liberated France. US saved Britain. Defeated Italy, defeated Germany, defeated Japan. France would probably show super strong anti-Americanism, as well as the rest in this list. South Koreans have no right to protest like them? They are walking on special egg shells, because…??
Cm, Koreans have to make their US pilgrimages to stock up at Burberry’s.
Won Joon:
I don’t disagree with that characterization of the American foreign policy elite. But it’s important to realize that it is only part of the general elite and that, thanks to the efforts of people like Bandow, there are some important cracks developing in the FP elite itself regarding the importance of an increasingly unreliable Korea as part of the China balancing act and, particularly, about the justifiability of continuing to provide Korea with a free - or at least heavily subsidized - ride in consideration of its (increasingly less useful) role as part of the equation.
I’d like to propose a “paint ball rule” here that holds that when a post has been countered with facts — as with pawi’s beef export comments for the past three days and his Sharon Stone line today — and thus rendered “dead” (as when a player is splattered in paint ball) then that line of thinking ends and is not repeated. To keep repeating discredited arguments may work for MBC, KBS and Sohn Hak-kyu, but here it is like cheating at paintball by getting up and fighting again.
This is why english-speaking people are known to be fucking stupid compared to french or german. Well.. “learn” is not an expression that can be used by equal partner in korean culture. it’s not koreans but americans who has to learn. as an ambassador, he needs to learn what effect his comment will have. he doesn’t even know how to speak korean. he has to understand he’s not in russia anymore.
you can say his way of speaking was polite. but even apart from the word “learn”, that whole sentence is not something that an ambassador can say. the content is indeed rude. if i were he, i would have just said regret.
also as a russian language major, does he really think that he knows science more that an average korean people? lol
You guys are missing the point here.
What Vershbow has said about how Koreans should learn a little more about the science and facts of American beef is nonetheless rude. It is certainly a form of political intervention which lacks respect for South Korea and its people.
Sure, misinterpretation is a silly mistake and you can laugh at it, but the most important issue here is Vershbow undermining the candle rally as a mop hypocracy without science facts that support their arguement, which is not true by all means.
My reference to this is
http://www.pressian.com/Script.....0604093609
I believe many of users here can read Korean, some of you can translate this.
If the government really believes Mad Cow Disease is not much of a concern, all they have to do is bringing up ‘the sceince and facts about American beefs’ that support their arguments, instead, they lied, hid facts and played blame games on each other. How can anyone expect to trust these people?
Please have a read these if you are willing to be a bit more reasonable.
http://www.chosun.com/site/dat.....00006.html
http://kimjongbae.tistory.com/.....-%ED%83%93
http://ichobo.net/204
http://www.pressian.com/script.....mp;s_menu=정치
Re: #77:
“… but here it is like cheating at paintball by getting up and fighting again.”
As in the world of fantasy, a sure sign of a troll is regenerating after being defeated.
I second Slim’s motion to implement a “paint ball rule”. Specifically, posts that intentionally re-iterate debunked, misleading “facts” should be taken down.
No, I’m afraid you are.
It’s not rude, especially coming after the foreign ministry telling him he was going to break an already concluded bilateral agreement. It’s the official US position, and as US ambassador, it’s his job to make that clear. It certainly isn’t “political intervention” — say, like the Korean ambassador to Washington asking Korean-Americans (US citizens) to reflect after the Virgina Tech shooting — and it certainly isn’t “disrespect for Korea and its people.”
Firstly, nobody’s laughing — Vershbow’s statement was misinterpreted, and one suspects intentionally for political reasons.
Secondly, regardless of what Pressian (hint: if you want to be a bit more persuasive, try linking to something other than the most left-wing and anti-American Internet paper in Korea. It’s like me going onto one of your favored forum — the Jin Jung-gwon forum at DC Inside, perhaps? — and linking to the Chosun Ilbo) thinks, the US government thinks differently. And while, considering the much criticized performance of the Korean Foreign Ministry, you may find it strange to see diplomats vigorously representing the official views of their nation, Americans expect their diplomats to do their job.
Fact is that the attitude the US is showing is as “reasonable” as it’s going to be. YOU just broke a trade agreement considered to be of vital importance to the United States. If the US were more “reasonable” like China, we’d be talking about slapping import bans on Korean cell phones. I’m being extremely reasonable — if this mess continues, I want to see only punitive tariffs, not full bans. That’s being “reasonable” — a country targets one of your major exports for trumped up safety/cultural/등등 reasons, you target back. And just as the Hankyoreh tells Americans to accept the situation on the ground:
http://www.hani.co.kr/arti/opi.....91559.html
I ask that you, too, accept the situation on the ground. The Democrats have Congress and will likely soon have the White House. Do you think they will be as “reasonable” as the US is being now?
#78 & 79: Vershbow was being very diplomatic and speaking as an ambassador should with his comments. In fact, he’s been extremely restrained throughout this clusterfuck.
The fact is that the Korean public, media, and opposition politicians are regularly citing wild rumors, verifiably false information, and straight bullshit regarding US beef, BSE, vCJD, American consumption habits, and a whole host of other issues.
They have demonstrated overwhelming ignorance of the science involved in BSE and the actual risk to humans. And given that fact, it was entirely reasonable for Vershbow to make the comments he did. In fact, it would have been entirely reasonable for him to go several steps further and criticize the media and opposition directly for intentionally spreading lies to financially harm an ally.
His restraint was admirable in how little he did say, as he would’ve been justified in opening both barrels given the bullshit involved and potential consequences on American business in Korea as a result.
Pinocchio — Do thank whoever linked me to the Jin Jung-gwon Gallery at DCInside. I tried to say thanks over there, but unfortunately, the 실명확인 function won’t accept my 외국인등록번호. Oddly enough, I might be a rapid right winger, but I actually like Jin Jung-gwon.
Won Joon Choe
I don’t know much about Mr. Sohn, and I have no reason to disagree with you. But I had good reason to be skeptical. I’ve personally seena few Asian students or even faculty in UC campuses who could hardly speak Engish. If you’re knowledgeable in a certain field universaties will sometimes hire / accept you even if half of what comes from their mouth is sheer gibberish.
Korean international students (from my own experience) speak just enough decent English to get by. They have to write reports and read textbooks in English, after all. But they don’t understand it intituitely. They tend to literally translate their korean thoughts / expressions into English (verbally or on writing) and generally struggle with nuances found in the language. Drop a pun on them sometimes and you get a blank stare in return because their English never went beyond the barest of fundamentals.
I was told that Kim Dae Jung attended an American Univerasity during his exile. I’m not sure for how long or at what capacity, but his English wasn’t that great. Fobbish almost. I think it’s quite possible for a Korean to spend 8 years at Oxford, Harvard or UCLA without comfortably mastering English, much less adapt to a foreign culture.
But if Mr. Sohn was actually published in a British scholarly journal, then he knows English. So he deliberately chose to spin a statement that he was able to place in proper context.
I read the Korean part, and I understand ‘how’ it was mistranslated, and I think it was done so intentionally. Most Koreans wouldnt understand how to translate that specific conversational sentence correctly. Had the ambassador, there would have been no ambiguity. Either Sohn really doesnt know english (maybe), accidentally mistranslated such a key phrase (probably not), or intentionally mistranslated a phrase normal Koreans would not be able to translate themselves (Bingo).
Oh just a note. A few koreans take the time to look at the science surrounding BSE, or even the science of US beef, aka, the scientific methods and procedures the US uses to protect US consumer, as mentioned in the Pressian article. Didnt have time to read it all; thats a lot of scientific words in Korean I am not familiar with. But that wasnt what the ambassador was mentioning anyway. Most koreans are reporting all sorts of lies and damned lies that they are fed by the hysterical media. A lot of the koreans are trying to say 1) A significant portion of US beef has mad cow disease 2) the US intentionally sends mad-cow beef to Korea rather than keep it in the US 3) the US and americans dont care about food safety 4) Koreans will be forced to buy American beef 5) Korean cows genetically cannot get mad cow 6) Korea wont be allowed to stop the importation of cows even if there is a single case of mad cow in the US (which would be true, but this ‘argument’ itself should be laughed at). If the average Korean didnt believe/repeat this sort of BS, then maybe the US and Korea could come to some sort of compromise. Until Koreans stop acting like children (or latin american peasants, my preferred analogy) and start acting like concerned but adult citizens, Korea will continue to sully its name internationally with its hysteria.
Yes, we Westerners must strive to understand the uniqueness (and implied superiority) of Koreans and Korean culture.
Unlike India, Greece, China, Italy, Japan, Egypt or Israel, Korean history goes back thousands of years.
Unlike Thailand, Cambodia, or the Inuit lands, Korea has a unique alphabet exclusively belonging to its own language.
Unlike the EU, Japan, Australia, Canada, Russia, China, India or Brazil, Korea has a heavily industrialized society with a large economy.
And of course, Korea is totally untainted by inferior foreign cultures, peoples and influences. That’s what this beef issue is really about, dammit!
lumpen wrote “Well.. “learn” is not an expression that can be used by equal partner in korean culture. it’s not koreans but americans who has to learn. as an ambassador, he needs to learn what effect his comment will have. he doesn’t even know how to speak korean. he has to understand he’s not in russia anymore”
Actually there are very few ambassadors that speak Korean, The Australian one does and he gets props for that. No other Western ones do (I believe but maybe wrong).
Ambassadors tend to be high ranking Government officials from within the ruling party at the time of change over. How many do you think have actually bothered to learn Korean?
5 Trackbacks
[...] UDP chairman Sohn Hak-kyu said at a party executive meeting today, “For Ambassador Vershbow to say ‘Koreans should learn a little more about science’ is an insult to all Korean citizens… Because the Lee Myung-bak administration took a humiliating posture towards the United States, an arrogant and impudent statement was made.” He then called the ambassador “very rude” for an earlier phone call in which he told Sohn that he was disappointed and that the UDP head’s statement were causing public insecurity. [Robert Koehler - TMH] [...]
[...] I have an idea. Instead of lecturing the US embassy, how about telling UDP chairman Sohn Hak-kyu to hire a decent translator, seeing how all those years at Oxford weren’t enough. [...]
[...] I would have felt better about the class boycott if they would have made an exception for science classes. [...]
[...] the air or a kiss, Koreans have already died just hours after having some, etc., and the likely deliberate use of mistranslations by opposition politicians — have put me in mind of Daniel Davies’ classic post [...]
[...] if not its elected leaders? This is idiocy, especially coming from the party that did so much to inflame the nonsense, and which feigned insult at the very idea of testing the mob’s conclusions with scientific [...]